So I want to open this up by saying I am very much a bit of a noob as far as competitive Brood War goes, but I wanted to make this thread because I think it's a fun/interesting theory to entertain.
It basically goes like this: Perhaps the reason that Terran is slightly favored in win-rates vs Protoss, and more so with Zerg, is because Protoss players do not make use of all three spell-caster units effectively.
In PvT, the Arbiter is obviously the most heavily used spell-caster unit, with the High Templar being used on occasion to defend expansions or tag along with the larger army of Zealots/Dragoons. But one unit is exceedingly rare in any Protoss matchup, the Dark Archon.
In late game PvT, the existence of a Science Vessel is very detrimental to the larger Protoss army, mainly because of the ability to EMP Arbiters and render the cloaking field null. HOWEVER, with a Dark Archon and a high energy Science Vessel, a Protoss player could reasonably kill one outright and effectively give his Arbiters more energy, assuming they would have been EMP-ed otherwise.
The ultimate ability of the Dark Archon, Mind Control, is difficult to use effectively because it is so energy-intensive, and one would need multiple Dark Archons and thus plenty of supply to Mind Control just a few units.
YET, Mind Control does not need to be used frequently. We can think of it in this hypothetical situation as a proxy Zealot Bomb or even a proto-Spawn Broodlings. Imagine Mind Controlling a Vulture near a nest of spider mines. One could effectively destroy an entire gang of Vultures, paving the way for Zealots. With enough Dark Archons, a Protoss player can cause Tanks to fire upon one another. Or even steal a few for himself after casting stasis on a smaller group.
What do you guys think? Am I forcing the Dark Archon where he dosen't belong? Or am I onto something here?
Maybe Mind Controling Sci Vessels is good if just to thin its ranks and have another detection against spider mines. Against Z Maesltrom is good and was gaining popularity at the twilight of the pro-scene.
Dark Archons are legitimately good units. The problem is they occupy the same building where psionic storm is researched, which is one of the strongest spells in the game and practically required in PvP and PvZ. It is also a pretty large investment to make a Dark Archon, upgrade maelstrom / mind control / energy, and then wait for the needed energy to be effective. In comparison to sinking money into High Templar with storm, or some archons - which can be immediately effective and prove super useful in PvZ and PvP, you will have troubles justifying the Dark Archon at any early-middle stage of the game.
Late game Dark Archons are great though when you find yourself in a split map situation with 4+ vespene geysers under your control. Feedback is so strong in PvP that it alone can justify using Dark Archons (Bonyth did this recently on his last streaming session. He nuked 3 high templars with a single Dark Archon before they got a psionic storm off). Feedback is great in PvZ as well, and Maelstrom is incredibly good against late game Zerg army compositions. Especially verse Guardians or Ultralisks, which tend to clump up. Even better, though, is using maelstrom on massive overlord drops which happen frequently at late stage PvZ.
As for mind control, it is a bit harder to justify it since how strong feedback / maelstrom are. In PvP you can make an argument for mind controlling a shuttle with two reavers in it... but the situation is so niche. In PvZ, there just seems to be no real case for mind control. I feel like it is the same case in PvT... there is just no real good use of mind control in that match-up. If you're in range to mind control something, you're in range of a Siege Tank shot, and that is no good. Maybe catching Science Vessels out and Mind Controlling could be a valid use of the skill though considering how expensive and important the units are for the Terran army. Mind Control is the same range as EMP but is instant. Feedback, however, outranges EMP. Basically, I have no idea what the fuck I'm saying.
Fb could be very useful vs T. Vultures dont trigger mines and MCed units will die too fast in a Terran ball to cause splash.
Ahh yeah, I forgot that Vultures can't trigger spider mines as they are hover-bikes. But if one were to MC a tank clustered next to other tanks, it could soften the adjacent units up a bit in addition to killing the other tank proto-broodling-style.
Maybe Mind Controling Sci Vessels is good if just to thin its ranks and have another detection against spider mines. Against Z Maesltrom is good and was gaining popularity at the twilight of the pro-scene.
I guess once one has control of Science Vessels, you could theoretically place defensive matrix on a Zealot/Shuttle and do some improved shuttle bombing. The biggest problem with Mind Control in general I think is it's cost. If you were to somehow rotate High Templar and Archons (force yourself to only use one at a time) maybe you'd make better use of storms and you'd be able to cast Mind Control somewhat regularly.
Mind Controlling Vessels wouldn't be a bad idea. Force terran to use scans, wait for terran to run out of scans. Murder his army. But Feedback has such a long reach, not worth possibly losing your DA for a sci vessal. Although DMatrix on an Archon is always good times.
I'll try incorporating them more in my games but it feels like HT are always a better investment.
It is also a pretty large investment to make a Dark Archon, upgrade maelstrom / mind control / energy, and then wait for the needed energy to be effective. In comparison to sinking money into High Templar with storm, or some archons - which can be immediately effective and prove super useful in PvZ and PvP, you will have troubles justifying the Dark Archon at any early-middle stage of the game.
This is going to actually sound crazy, but hear me out. What if you (theoretically) choose to be an absolute madman and make not one, but TWO Templar Archives? It would be an obvious extra sink in resources, but consider what it could do in PvZ. If you manage to find yourself in a situation where only a few Ultralisks are on a map (Unless the Zerg player decides to only attack you once they have many, many Ultralisks) you can try to Mind Control them one or two at a time. In addition, having the feedback/MC could (theoretically) help you kill or even SNAG a Defiler! Maelstrom, as you already mentioned, would just be a welcome addition. The problem is that for a period of time, you would probably be sacrificing extra units, which is dangerous.
Mind Controlling Vessels wouldn't be a bad idea. Force terran to use scans, wait for terran to run out of scans. Murder his army. But Feedback has such a long reach, not worth possibly losing your DA for a sci vessal. Although DMatrix on an Archon is always good times.
I guess when mind-controlling, you kind of have to wait for the science vessel to come to you. Like when 1 or 2 are sent out away from the main army and you KNOW they're about to send off an EMP. You can MC one (or both) of them and you can shield your de-shielded Dark Archon with Defensive Matrix (sine they loose shields after casting MC)
I think KT_Violet was quite close to bringing it into 'PvZ meta'. Based on what I've seen over the years and have theory crafted I can only ever see it becoming something regular in PvZ.
It's bulky and way vulnerable vs terran mech. Pro players rarely have vessels with 200/200, and for them to also be in range for feedback is even rarer. In your average PvT, at best you're getting to Feedback a Vessel and it will lose nearly all it's HP and all of it's energy while you will likely lose your DA for it. That's not worth the investment. Having an Arbiter instead of that DA is simply better. And the range on Mind Control is simply too low to ever use effectively. In 1a2a3a they just get in the way of your own units and therefore arguably give Terran even more time to shoot your stuff to smithereens... (If island maps ever going to be a thing, then we can talk about DA for PvT.)
I think instead the new meta game shift will be disruption web in PvT. They say it is better than Stasis Field in some situations when it is like 2base against 2base.
This is all, of course, extremely wishful thinking predicated on the idea that getting Dark Archons with the requisite upgrades will always pan out to be worth it. The fact of the matter is that this is not the case. It is a big money sink, spending resources that are better-spent on more consistent and reliable units/abilities. Getting DA up in time to use with Arbiter would delay said Arbiter, for example. Getting two Templar archives cuts down on your Archon/HT count in PvZ when it is crucial to make the best use of your gas, for what? Your choices amount to:
1. Feedback on a Defiler, which is pretty much a Western shoot-out; you have to hope that you target IT before it plagues/swarms YOU, and if you end up on the wrong end of that exchange, you will have blown your wad and still gotten the undesired effect. Not a safe bet to make.
2. Maelstrom on a clump on units, which is rarely worth it against a Zerg at this stage of the game because you are unlikely to Maelstrom anything exceptionally expensive for your Storm, or anything the Storm wouldn't have hit either way.
3. Mindcontrol an Ultra or Defiler I guess, which are both bad choices anyway and risk losing your DA almost instantly.
In almost any of these exchanges, your APM is better spent elsewhere.
That being said, as Faust mentioned, DA do already see usage in high level PvP/PvZ games, especially in ones that are drawn out, or when one player is ahead as a gimmick, or in unusual cases on old school maps.
Outside of all this, I think maybe the fact that your self-admitted lack of skill (HT for defending expansions in PvT? Vulture triggering mine[?] when you can just use Shuttle or Zealot run-by?) might be impeding your appreciation of just how refined progamers' play and builds are, and why they are this way. If it was as simple as building an extra Templar Archives or using a DA spell, it would have been done already. In fact, it probably has been done countless times in Korean practice houses a decade or more ago, and everyone considered it to be irrelevant.
Mind Control doesn't seem like it'd have much, if any use in PvZ. What does Protoss want with exactly one Zerg unit? An Ultralisk would be nice, but Maelstrom is probably more of a swing than that in most situations. Defilers are borderline useless in Protoss hands: they can't consume anything (Consume only works on Zerg units, if I remember correctly), Dark Swarm likely is purely advantageous for Zerg at the stage Defilers are out, and while Plague is very strong against Zerg units, it's not that impressive when you have Psi Storm and Maelstrom at your disposal.
This is what koreans are saying about protoss. It's those lazy people who started out with protoss because they just love doing 1a2a3a and making 200 psi units very easy so they don't try to do pesky things like what terrans/zergs do. Zergs literally have been evolving constantly to fight the terran late mech. Zergs with their insane mechanics pull off stuff like broodlinging 12 tanks at once while swarming everywhere in the map. Not to mention that defiler needs to constantly consume and are slow at moving. Couple that off with zerg also upgrading drops. Zerg literally uses EVERY arsenal. Protoss in the meanwhile could up their insane mechanics by using DARK archon or constant harrass with shuttle play. This is somewhat pesky thing to do and i know TOSS HATES DOING THIS. Even with shuttle play, toss can go far.. look at bisu with his constant sair usage and constant shuttle play.
On June 17 2017 13:46 RoKetha wrote: Mind Control doesn't seem like it'd have much, if any use in PvZ.
What? Mind Control is the reason why it is impossible for zerg to win late game when there is no more expand and toss simply sit and wait for you to waste your units on his defence while picking them up one by one with MC.
Did u even used DA much in real games? It takes like ENTIRE AGES to wait for 150 energy of DA, then u can just MC 1 unit, thats why u see this speel mostly in troll games or EXTRA LONG games like pvp DA/Carrs vs DA/Carrs or some EXTRA LONG other mu's / situations, in standard game it takes to long to use it properly.
As previously mentioned, DA don't get used very much because it overlaps with the High Templar. Also, more or less, Feedback shares the same niche as Stasis Field does in the PvT matchup.
As far as PvZ and PvP goes, the gas is typically better used on other units until you have enough surplus time and gas to invest into DAs.
To the topic poster: Not to be a dick but this is all garbage Protoss needs to use the micro time/resources/ actual time to get templars and storm Terran units. Either that or 2 stargate arbs. Feedbacking a vessel or even worse mind controling one is just a huge waste of time related to resources based on other options you could do with that apm. Add up the total resources of two DTs and mind control because you can basically assume the DA will die(any top level terran will target it with a few vults killing it quick). There's a reason pro gamers don't do this. I'm sorry you are not smarter than them. It's just really bad. That's why you never see it from the best players in the world.
Not to mention what other people have said about the time it takes DAs to acquire energy. MAYBE feedback could possibly be useful, but what if the vessel gets the emp off on your DA first when you're not paying attention? Then youre even more fucked. It's the same reason ghosts arent used to lockdown arbs. It looks good in your head and on paper in a perfect world, but when it comes to actually pulling it off in the game while you're doing all the other things you're supposed to do. It's close to impossible or way too risky(the ghosts could be emped or sniped by vults or even tank targeting). So you never see it.
In PVP and PVZ DAs have their uses for sure. But it's still a late game split map type of unit. Not something to base your builds around. In PVT you are better off spending your time elsewhere. Broodwar is all about TIME. The most important resource.
In summary no sir, you are not onto something here but practice instead! You can learn so much just by playing games. You should embrace the beautiful world of Broodwar in all its complexity and realize you have so much to learn As I still do, despite playing it for 20 years. There is a lot of room for creativity especially at lower levels of play. It just takes a strong understanding of the basics to make it work properly. I think even the great Flash would say he still has things to learn about the game ( just much less than the rest of us mortals).
On June 17 2017 14:26 Shinokuki wrote: This is what koreans are saying about Protoss. It's those lazy people who started out with protoss because they just love doing 1a2a3a and making 200 psi units very easy so they don't try to do pesky things like what terrans/zergs do. Zergs literally have been evolving constantly to fight the Terran late mech. Zergs with their insane mechanics pull off stuff like broodlinging 12 tanks at once while swarming everywhere in the map. Not to mention that defiler needs to constantly consume and are slow at moving. Couple that off with zerg also upgrading drops. Zerg literally uses EVERY arsenal. Protoss in the meanwhile could up their insane mechanics by using DARK archon or constant harrass with shuttle play. This is somewhat pesky thing to do and i know TOSS HATES DOING THIS. Even with shuttle play, toss can go far.. look at bisu with his constant sair usage and constant shuttle play.
Yes look at him getting absolutely shitted on by shine
--See above spoiler regarding the most recent ASL-- Not exactly fair to Bisu(believe me I have a lot of respect for his skills), but a good example of the risks of harassment style protoss. There is always risk! But to the point of your post. You are giving too much credit to Zerg and not enough to Protoss. There are plenty of examples of Protoss doing amazing multitask and drop harassment vs Terran. Not just by Bisu. Also its very very uncommon to see a game where Zerg is using mass broodling. Or even queens at all. You are highlighting a rare event as the norm for Zerg and completely dismissing the rare events of Protoss. The problem for Protoss in harassment style is that it's a huge cost risk. If you get caught flat out or your drops do no damage you will lose the game period(given equal skill and assuming terran doesnt make a huge mistake). And if you succeed you will still have a turret setup/in base mines and constant reinforcements including tanks to get through in most cases(terran range is a huge advantage here).
It's hard as fuck to harass T as Protoss late game unless they make a mistake. Other than recall. And even that can go terribly terribly wrong.
He forgot to research recall in the video;) Just a little fun.
And in my opinion the reason Terran seems favored is because people like Flash and Last are playing Terran.
I have no doubt if Flash had been Zerg or Protoss, he would be amazing as well. To go a little deeper, why do great talents end up going Terran? I think a big part of it is the comstat. The better you are the more you get from additional information. And no race is better at getting additional information if comstat is used correctly than Terran. There's nothing the opponent can do to block it. Free scouting.
On June 17 2017 13:46 RoKetha wrote: Mind Control doesn't seem like it'd have much, if any use in PvZ. What does Protoss want with exactly one Zerg unit? An Ultralisk would be nice, but Maelstrom is probably more of a swing than that in most situations. Defilers are borderline useless in Protoss hands: they can't consume anything (Consume only works on Zerg units, if I remember correctly), Dark Swarm likely is purely advantageous for Zerg at the stage Defilers are out, and while Plague is very strong against Zerg units, it's not that impressive when you have Psi Storm and Maelstrom at your disposal.
There's a very very oldschool progamer replay where I think maybe ForU(?) skips robo tech and goes DA Mind control and steals an upgraded zerg overlord and absolutely crushes. Just a fun fact mainly...not much point im making beyond that. This was maybe 14 years ago lol. This was on Lost Temple.
Now, I wouldn't call dark archons useless in PvT, but some people in this topic try to make it seem like it's a completely undervalued unit, and to that I have to say it's just not true. MC is not the spell you want to go for because it has a negative return of investment. You wait ages, then you use it once, and if you have multiple DA's then you have to somehow make sure they're not blocking your dragoons and zealots. This is not comparable to queens or defilers in ZvT because queens are fast and they're not in the way of ultras and lings, and defilers are nimble (although they're slower and have a shorter reach) and they can cast two dark swarms or one plague (either of which is far more powerful than one MC) and they can consume units to cast again, which also means they can be used instantly if managed correctly. Feedback is the only spell that really makes sense to use in PvT, and that is literally only useful against science vessels, which may not even be in the fight, or when they are it's usually just two or three. So a single DA would be enough to fight against science vessels. Now if you're arguing that this would be helpful then I'll agree. But if you're arguing that this would turn the tide then I'll disagree. It'd have a very, very minor effect on the protoss winrate, and although it shouldn't be neglected, it also shouldn't be compared to dark swarm and plague, which are actually essential to winning games. HT's have a far greater return of investment than DA's. That's why a single DA would work as a complementary unit, but not as a replacement for one or two HT's.
And to adress the corsair d-web theory: this is another case where other units - arbiters - are outperforming them. The return of investment for arbiters is higher because the AOE of stasis can't be avoided - if it lands, it sticks. D-web doesn't have that. Also, arbiters can be used alternatively for recall, and they have cloak, so they're also more versatile, creating two different threats and an inconvenience for terran. Speed and damage output of a corsair are not significant enough.
Feedback on vessel is not bad imo, the range of feedback and speed of casting being so much greater than that of EMP. It's situational because there are usually tanks nearby, but at the same time it may make the Terran want to leave their vessels behind a bit more giving you more chance for a nice stasis. I was using it a bunch not ineffectively.
It's also not bad against HT in PvP. Seriously if you'll just make one DA, it can disable 1 or 2 opponent HTs, worth it! Often you want to have them in front to storm, well not if there is one DA with 50+ energy.
In PvZ I think maelstrom is a good solid spell. Maelstrom is not even bad in pvp, especially if your opponent want to get away and you maelstrom zealots/Hts. Also can serve as detection against DT. -.-
Mindcontrol is really hard to make good use of and rather risky to try and set up, but sometimes yeah even against a strong P player I have gained advantage using a type of mindcontrol opening (designed against shuttle reaver but he went for quick archons I stole his archon and gained the advantage in the game with this action, also won games against decent/good Ps mindcontrolling a earlyish shuttle+reaver[s]). Ultras. Or catch a SCV at any point in a PvT and if you manage to start getting tanks, T will get scared, you become VERY strong then^^
It's fine to have some fun, no need to play the most effiencientest way all the time. . . the game lacking balance in some places barely allows straying from the few set paths as you reach for higher level, but you might learn other nice things and pull off stylish wins playing differently.
Why would anyone want to mind control a clumped tank rather than storm them? Same applies for clumped vults. Storm is better in every way. Faster, cheaper, more reliable.
Comparison:
Cost of high templar: 50 minerals, 150 gas, 75 energy, 2 PSI (starting energy 50)
Cost of Dark Archon: 250 minerals, 200 gas, 150 energy, 4 PSI (starting energy 50)
Differences in numbers are quite notable.
In PvT I would not waste my resources/apm for getting DA with mind control. TBH I would in almost every case keep my dark templars as dark templars rather than morphing a DA, even if mind control was a default skill for them.
The only legitimate use for DAs in PvT is feedbacking science vessels (potential 1 hit kill, long range, no upgrades or waiting for energy needed).
On June 17 2017 11:54 SCC-Faust wrote: Dark Archons are legitimately good units. The problem is they occupy the same building where psionic storm is researched, which is one of the strongest spells in the game and practically required in PvP and PvZ
I call this as a strength rather than a weakness. There are no extra gas for additional building+upgrade before storm anyways.
I think it's only really worth it if you're playing with DT's in the first place. As the game progresses, your DT's will have less and less value so you get a DA for "free" if you can keep your DTs alive. I don't think it's worth it to go out of your way to spend 250/200 just for a chance to feedback Science Vessels (with a bajillion tanks on the field, there's no guarantee you'll even get one spell off). So the gameplan should be around "how do I keep my DT's alive?" rather than "Let's get DA"
As for sharing research facility with Templar, I think that's fine. You get all your templar tech as normal. Then, if your DT's are still alive and you're able to morph that DA, THEN you can think about getting the DA upgrades late into the game
On June 17 2017 14:26 Shinokuki wrote: This is what koreans are saying about protoss. It's those lazy people who started out with protoss because they just love doing 1a2a3a and making 200 psi units very easy so they don't try to do pesky things like what terrans/zergs do. Zergs literally have been evolving constantly to fight the terran late mech. Zergs with their insane mechanics pull off stuff like broodlinging 12 tanks at once while swarming everywhere in the map. Not to mention that defiler needs to constantly consume and are slow at moving. Couple that off with zerg also upgrading drops. Zerg literally uses EVERY arsenal. Protoss in the meanwhile could up their insane mechanics by using DARK archon or constant harrass with shuttle play. This is somewhat pesky thing to do and i know TOSS HATES DOING THIS. Even with shuttle play, toss can go far.. look at bisu with his constant sair usage and constant shuttle play.
As always, can you please cite some sources? Are these just regular netizens, just like you, who come on forums and defend their race, cry about how hard it is, and balance whine and call other races ezpz while talking other nonsense? If so, then those are not legitimate sources and you saying "This is what koreans are saying," for the umpteenth time gives you argument 0 weight whatsoever given the other ludicrous claims you've made.
On June 17 2017 14:26 Shinokuki wrote: This is what koreans are saying about protoss. It's those lazy people who started out with protoss because they just love doing 1a2a3a and making 200 psi units very easy so they don't try to do pesky things like what terrans/zergs do. Zergs literally have been evolving constantly to fight the terran late mech. Zergs with their insane mechanics pull off stuff like broodlinging 12 tanks at once while swarming everywhere in the map. Not to mention that defiler needs to constantly consume and are slow at moving. Couple that off with zerg also upgrading drops. Zerg literally uses EVERY arsenal. Protoss in the meanwhile could up their insane mechanics by using DARK archon or constant harrass with shuttle play. This is somewhat pesky thing to do and i know TOSS HATES DOING THIS. Even with shuttle play, toss can go far.. look at bisu with his constant sair usage and constant shuttle play.
As always, can you please cite some sources? Are these just regular netizens, just like you, who come on forums and defend their race, cry about how hard it is, and balance whine and call other races ezpz while talking other nonsense? If so, then those are not legitimate sources and you saying "This is what koreans are saying," for the umpteenth time gives you argument 0 weight whatsoever given the other ludicrous claims you've made.
Starting with Flash's 5 rax +1 into 3 vulture play or the new trend 3 rax 2 starport ( now he does not add in VALKS as he used to but 6-7 vessels) We have seen a different meta from terran Let's not even mention zerg.. I'm sure you know of that incredible evolution this past year
BU TOSS? LMAO while everyone amazed by zvt evolution we literally just goin ok pvt pvz..
feedback on vessels, templars and defilers is genuinely good, and DAs are frequently worth their investment in large scale battles where they allow you to feedback before the engagement. mind control is almost always garbage. (pvp vs mass carrier and stalemates with a lot of static d and no remaining resources are basically the two exceptions).
maelstrom is sometimes really great in pvz against an anticipated muta switch - if he has 36 hydra and 12 muta and you have 16 goons 10 zealot 4 templar, then one dark archon with maelstrom is, without a doubt, the best 300 gas investment you can make for your army. The problem is mostly the timing - you basically need to make the DA switch before the zerg actually makes the muta switch for you to have maelstrom by the time you need it to protect your templars. And while maelstrom is the best counter to mutalisks there is, corsairs have more utility except against mutas. (spending your apm maelstroming instead of storming when facing mass hydra is in my experience a good way to lose a fight you'd otherwise win.
I actually could see more frequent implementation of mael pvz and occasional lategame feedback in all matchups as part of a protoss strategical evolution. Pretty certain it's possible to consistently implement them in pvz - if nothing else, building them 40% of the time is gonna heavily discourage zergs from even trying to do a muta switch.
OP and other posters don't even realize that Mind Control is already a thing.
Dark Archons + Mind Control are standard in Korean PvZ lategame now just as Queens are (and have been for quite some time) in late game ZvT. You just don't see it much because the game usually ends before it gets to this point as PvZ can be quite volatile. I was intrigued myself as I watched the games live, and was never able to find a good VOD of it. Would definitely be awesome and also educational for people to see.
Watched several different games between BeSt and Larva, and even some other PvZ games go to late game and Dark Archons with Mind Control end up being the most cost effective unit (like a Queen using Spawn Broodlings) and produced en masse. Basically, energy units dominate ultra late game anything when the map is getting closed to mining out--energy isn't minerals, gas, or supply wasted, and regenerates. That's why it suddenly becomes good. Prime targets are Ultralisks, Lurkers, Guardians, and to acquire a few Defilers of your own. High Templars are produced as well for Maelstrom/Storm combo, and the Zerg player tries to produce Queens to pick them off with Spawn Broodlings.
I even believe this usage for Dark Archons is going to end up being more prominent than early Maelstrom on Mutalisks (which help against HT snipes) and mid-late game Maelstrom combined with your Archon/Reaver "deathball", or pretty much anything Feedback related. Although, those spells also become helpful when you get to this stage of the game.
Yes, this sounds super wild, but I guarantee you will be able to see it for yourself if any of the top Korean Protoss (like BeSt) gets into a long drawn out PvZ.
As far as PvT goes, I don't really know if Dark Archons will ever end up becoming a thing, or what their usage could entail. Only time will tell.
1 dark archon = 4 supply (weakens ur army) and theres no guarantee that you can efficiently get a feedback off when a fight happens.
When you engage in a big fight ur units tend to block each other so a lot of your stuff will straggle behind (making it hard to be in range of a vessel to feedback it before it emps your arbs). If you have your DA in front of your army it'll just evaporate vs tanks. Theoretically yes feedback is good vs vessels but it's extremely hard to get it off in a 200/200 fight (also terran will typically have more than 1 vessel, getting 1 feedback is already hard so getting multiple ones would be extremely difficult).
Best way to deal with terran armies is to split ur arbs and try to flank with as many as you can.
Also managing all those spellcasters isn't an easy thing to do, most of the time having too many spellcasters ends up hurting you more than help you. You need to drag mines with ur zealots (and try to split them as much as possible), you need to drop hts to storm the terran army and you need to split and micro your arbs.
On June 18 2017 02:59 TT1 wrote: 1 dark archon = 4 supply (weakens ur army) and theres no guarantee that you can efficiently get a feedback off when a fight happens.
When you engage in a big fight ur units tend to block each other so a lot of your stuff will straggle behind (making it hard to be in range of a vessel to feedback it before it emps your arbs). If you have your DA in front of your army it'll just evaporate vs tanks. Theoretically yes feedback is good vs vessels but it's extremely hard to get it off in a 200/200 fight (also terran will typically have more than 1 vessel, getting 1 feedback is already hard so getting multiple ones would be extremely difficult).
Best way to deal with terran armies is to split ur arbs and try to flank with as many as you can.
Also managing all those spellcasters isn't an easy thing to do, most of the time having too many spellcasters ends up hurting you more than help you. You need to drag mines with ur zealots (and try to split them as much as possible), you need to drop hts to storm the terran army and you need to split and micro your arbs.
On June 18 2017 02:59 TT1 wrote: 1 dark archon = 4 supply (weakens ur army) and theres no guarantee that you can efficiently get a feedback off when a fight happens.
When you engage in a big fight ur units tend to block each other so a lot of your stuff will straggle behind (making it hard to be in range of a vessel to feedback it before it emps your arbs). If you have your DA in front of your army it'll just evaporate vs tanks. Theoretically yes feedback is good vs vessels but it's extremely hard to get it off in a 200/200 fight (also terran will typically have more than 1 vessel, getting 1 feedback is already hard so getting multiple ones would be extremely difficult).
Best way to deal with terran armies is to split ur arbs and try to flank with as many as you can.
Also managing all those spellcasters isn't an easy thing to do, most of the time having too many spellcasters ends up hurting you more than help you. You need to drag mines with ur zealots (and try to split them as much as possible), you need to drop hts to storm the terran army and you need to split and micro your arbs.
idk man.. zergs literally broodling 12 tanks while moving in with ultras/lings with another spellcaster (swarm). They sometimes even drop.. I remember when Free was on a tear vs terrans when he started using templars. He would recall like 9 goons 5 zlot 3 hts into terran main and he wud keep storming the tanks in ramp. He would also keep storming and storming even though he knwos it takes a lot of hand. Protoss gotta just evolve like that from sheer mechanics. You can't just say nooooooo it too hard.
Queens are air units and terran doesnt have much anti air in lategame tvz (after they mech, they have some vessels and a few gols) thats why queens are efficient vs tanks. Also with queens you have to start broodling'ing tanks BEFORE the engagement starts. Typically you'll see a player get vision of T's tanks with an ovi or parasite and he'll mass broodling on 1 tank with ALL his queens, then he'll shift deselect 1 queen and re-broodling another tank with all his queens, shift deselect that queen/repeat the process.
On June 18 2017 02:59 TT1 wrote: 1 dark archon = 4 supply (weakens ur army) and theres no guarantee that you can efficiently get a feedback off when a fight happens.
When you engage in a big fight ur units tend to block each other so a lot of your stuff will straggle behind (making it hard to be in range of a vessel to feedback it before it emps your arbs). If you have your DA in front of your army it'll just evaporate vs tanks. Theoretically yes feedback is good vs vessels but it's extremely hard to get it off in a 200/200 fight (also terran will typically have more than 1 vessel, getting 1 feedback is already hard so getting multiple ones would be extremely difficult).
Best way to deal with terran armies is to split ur arbs and try to flank with as many as you can.
Also managing all those spellcasters isn't an easy thing to do, most of the time having too many spellcasters ends up hurting you more than help you. You need to drag mines with ur zealots (and try to split them as much as possible), you need to drop hts to storm the terran army and you need to split and micro your arbs.
What about 3 shuttle plays? drop like 5-6 hts.?
Well its good if you can execute it properly, Jangbi is one of the rare players who's very good at ht dropping/storming with several shuttles. Even a super gosu like Bisu wasn't HT dropping vs terran (with even 1 shuttle) in 200/200 fights until recently.
On June 17 2017 13:46 RoKetha wrote: Mind Control doesn't seem like it'd have much, if any use in PvZ. What does Protoss want with exactly one Zerg unit? An Ultralisk would be nice, but Maelstrom is probably more of a swing than that in most situations. Defilers are borderline useless in Protoss hands: they can't consume anything (Consume only works on Zerg units, if I remember correctly), Dark Swarm likely is purely advantageous for Zerg at the stage Defilers are out, and while Plague is very strong against Zerg units, it's not that impressive when you have Psi Storm and Maelstrom at your disposal.
There's a very very oldschool progamer replay where I think maybe ForU(?) skips robo tech and goes DA Mind control and steals an upgraded zerg overlord and absolutely crushes. Just a fun fact mainly...not much point im making beyond that. This was maybe 14 years ago lol. This was on Lost Temple.
Why an overlord? did it have units inside of it, or he just wanted to use it for drops?
overlord for detection. This was during a time where zvp was basically 'zerg lurker contains protoss. either protoss breaks out and wins the game, or they don't, and lose'.
I think it might have some merit PvT, just 1 though, since feedback is instant long ass range it seems okay.
PvZ it definitely has its uses late game, ive watched a lot of streams of split map situations where I know zerg is gonna lose cause of mind control they stay in and well.. lose.
On June 18 2017 05:27 arb wrote: I think it might have some merit PvT, just 1 though, since feedback is instant long ass range it seems okay.
PvZ it definitely has its uses late game, ive watched a lot of streams of split map situations where I know zerg is gonna lose cause of mind control they stay in and well.. lose.
PvP like someone said maybe a niche for carriers?
PvP you can open w/ 2 dts and go into DA + mindcontrol (w/ mass goon support) if you can confirm that your opponent is doing a goon/reaver timing. You can mind control a shuttle w/ 2 reavs or worst case scenario 1 reav.
Stork has been doing a lot of builds on his stream vZ where he opens DT corsair and then depending on whether the dark templar survives or not, makes another 1 or 2 which he consequently morphes into a Dark Archon.
The curious thing is he always morphs only one. I guess, for now, for him, at least, that's the threshold and I'm not seeing him researching all the upgrades / skills.
He's always focusing on keeping the Dark Archon alive as long as possible but I'm not sure he develops all abilities. He mainly uses Maelstroms against Muta flocks and hydras. It's really cool when utilised well and he constantly manages to cast 3~5 spells. I hope he'll continue to experiment with builds like this.
What's always intrigued me about mind control is that it could possibly nullify Terran's late game advantage in PvT.
I mean a maxed out terran beats a maxed out protoss. So if the terran manages to get a split map; maybe you could gamble and mind control an SCV. Rush some tanks of your own, fortify your positions and surprise the T with 300+ pop vs his 200 pop.
Or maybe he'll kill you before that ever happens but it'd be cool!
On June 18 2017 03:57 Liquid`Drone wrote: overlord for detection. This was during a time where zvp was basically 'zerg lurker contains protoss. either protoss breaks out and wins the game, or they don't, and lose'.
It still seems like it would have been a lot easier to build a robo and obs, then he'd have as much detection as he wants. But maybe I just don't understand the metagame of that era.
I think the main utility in PvT is that of destroying Sci Vessels (or MCing them if possible) to take out detection, and attempt to pull off that insane wave of Psi Storms against tanks that was mentioned earlier in this thread.
To be fair terrans have a ~55% winrate vs protoss on most maps, just look at the TLPD map winrates: (FS + CB being the main maps/most played on)
That's what I was mainly referring too, and I think the 10 point gap is mainly due to Protoss not being able to break the Terran siege line. And when you can't break the siege line in time, the Terran has map control and it can be quite difficult to get back into the game at that point.
I mean, for feedback it seems like a good idea, then your arbiters don't get EMP'd. Doesn't require upgrades either, just merge two dark templars you had from earlier in the game.
In that JangBi vs SoO game the DA was built in response to the muta harassment that was already going on, which is something that many protoss players have done for many years, so nothing new there.
On June 18 2017 05:27 arb wrote: I think it might have some merit PvT, just 1 though, since feedback is instant long ass range it seems okay.
PvZ it definitely has its uses late game, ive watched a lot of streams of split map situations where I know zerg is gonna lose cause of mind control they stay in and well.. lose.
PvP like someone said maybe a niche for carriers?
PvP you can open w/ 2 dts and go into DA + mindcontrol (w/ mass goon support) if you can confirm that your opponent is doing a goon/reaver timing. You can mind control a shuttle w/ 2 reavs or worst case scenario 1 reav.
Doesn't Flash and Last basically skew the stats in favor of terrans? and I think that movie, horang2, sky, and stork like completely skew the stats for protoss in worst way possible. We have really good tosses like rain, snow, mini, and bisu who all have 60% win rate
The only underused spell by protoss players is hallucination imo.
Feedback on Vessels doesn't really work, as at high level most EMP's will be pre-emptive after Terran scans the protoss army and Protoss doesn't know a vessel is coming. Also doesn't help against anti-recall EMPs.
dunno what's going on. didn't read everything except the beginning post. You can use a dark archon for ONLY 1st 200 max battle, but after that i wouldn't. Use speed shuttle more often.
On June 18 2017 03:57 Liquid`Drone wrote: overlord for detection. This was during a time where zvp was basically 'zerg lurker contains protoss. either protoss breaks out and wins the game, or they don't, and lose'.
It still seems like it would have been a lot easier to build a robo and obs, then he'd have as much detection as he wants. But maybe I just don't understand the metagame of that era.
It was a joke build tbh, not used frequently, and it wasn't really any good.
I once rushed on FS typical camping style terran with protoss bulldog attack, but instead of zealots i got 2 DA with mc in shuttle. Luckily, he had 2 sieged tanks on his main highground, so i MC'ed them and the rest was melted with dragons supported by those tanks. I was laughing for 10 minutes after that, but I doubt it can be used against someone good, cause he would have double your limit by the time you got energy on DAs. Definitely got more wins with 1 base 1 stargate carrier rush.
On June 17 2017 11:16 UndeadProtoss wrote: In late game PvT, the existence of a Science Vessel is very detrimental to the larger Protoss army, mainly because of the ability to EMP Arbiters and render the cloaking field null. HOWEVER, with a Dark Archon and a high energy Science Vessel, a Protoss player could reasonably kill one outright and effectively give his Arbiters more energy, assuming they would have been EMP-ed otherwise.
I don't think this would be the case, In which scenario does the protoss player have both enough apm for feedbacking the vessel and not dodging with the arbiter?
On June 17 2017 11:16 UndeadProtoss wrote: In late game PvT, the existence of a Science Vessel is very detrimental to the larger Protoss army, mainly because of the ability to EMP Arbiters and render the cloaking field null. HOWEVER, with a Dark Archon and a high energy Science Vessel, a Protoss player could reasonably kill one outright and effectively give his Arbiters more energy, assuming they would have been EMP-ed otherwise.
I don't think this would be the case, In which scenario does the protoss player have both enough apm for feedbacking the vessel and not dodging with the arbiter?
Feedback casts pretty much instantly, so it's definitely faster. I'd say that scenario is more useful for protecting HTs from EMP than arbiters though.
feedback isn't only faster than emp, it has longer range as well. If a vessel attempts to emp a DA and the DA responds in time, then the vessel is getting feedbacked, before throwing emp even, every time. the problem is actually being in the screen and controlling the DA when the vessel is coming in for the emp.
And as mentioned before, it's normally quite dangerous to feedback offensively. However If a vessel strays 3 matrixes ahead of the tank line though, it's doable, and I think it's quite common to see vessels in front of the army to scout for cloaked attacks.
I don't think that adding DAs is gonna vastly increase p's winning chance, but I totally think that if it's one of those 4-5 control groups of protoss ground, 5 arbiters, limit, 5k/3k 4 mining bases vs 3-3 terran, then swapping 2 zealots for 1 DA is probably '+ev', and definitely not something that loses you the game. you don't need any upgrades, it's just 1 250/200 investment that gives you a decent chance at blocking a couple emps, meaning you're likely to have more stasis and storm during the next engagement.
On June 19 2017 04:45 Liquid`Drone wrote: feedback isn't only faster than emp, it has longer range as well. If a vessel attempts to emp a DA and the DA responds in time, then the vessel is getting feedbacked, before throwing emp even, every time. the problem is actually being in the screen and controlling the DA when the vessel is coming in for the emp.
And as mentioned before, it's normally quite dangerous to feedback offensively. However If a vessel strays 3 matrixes ahead of the tank line though, it's doable, and I think it's quite common to see vessels in front of the army to scout for cloaked attacks.
I don't think that adding DAs is gonna vastly increase p's winning chance, but I totally think that if it's one of those 4-5 control groups of protoss ground, 5 arbiters, limit, 5k/3k 4 mining bases vs 3-3 terran, then swapping 2 zealots for 1 DA is probably '+ev', and definitely not something that loses you the game. you don't need any upgrades, it's just 1 250/200 investment that gives you a decent chance at blocking a couple emps, meaning you're likely to have more stasis and storm during the next engagement.
This is of course true if we consider the perfect player or SCAI or something of that nature, but the question for human players is IMO "Is using Feedback a better use of your time/APM than the alternative?" in which case I think it the answer would be "yes" very rarely and "no" the majority of the time when considering the (often discredited) amount of things a Protoss needs to do during an engagement, in rapid succession (Stasis + Shuttle + Storm + Split Zealots + Split Dragoons + Macro).
I think it's almost always going to be a good idea to cast feedback in that scenario. Preventing an EMP right before a large engagement is huge, and takes less than a second to do. The problem with dark archons is the high resource and time investment for a situational unit which you may not have an opportunity to use, especially since you can make an arbiter instead.
what i'd like to see is protoss players taking their 3rd at the terran 5th after a standard build, so they steal resources away from terran for the late game :p
And if terran wants to punish the base (assuming he finds it), protoss can either take the fight in the open or backstab the terran natural!
I never understood the expanding pattern of protosses. Why don't they just do like zerg does and expand early in corners? It's not exactly hard to use goons/cannons to block a ramp, neither is it to park two observers near the edges of the terran base to spot dropships.
On June 18 2017 18:39 endy wrote: The only underused spell by protoss players is hallucination imo.
Feedback on Vessels doesn't really work, as at high level most EMP's will be pre-emptive after Terran scans the protoss army and Protoss doesn't know a vessel is coming. Also doesn't help against anti-recall EMPs.
By the way hallucination has been used quite a lot during this year's tournaments to get an arbiter through terran turrets. I'm certain it has been done against mong on CB, and fairly sure it happened to other terrans.
I think maelstoming a stack of mutas could potentially be game-winning, but might also fail completely. Feedback against vessels seems like more trouble than it's worth.I guess mind controlling a worker is an option in a really long, slow game... might only work 1 in 100 games but it's the ultimate late game strategy- a 400/400 army.
I think that a DA would be a too easy snipe target the same way that HT already are. Terran just has to manually aim at each spellcaster -they still have enough DPS after that usually to still finish off the toss army. I think a more viable option would be to incorporate more shuttles instead of just one. I've seen a few seen a few top Terrans get creamed by like 5 shuttle zealot drops.
On June 18 2017 18:39 endy wrote: The only underused spell by protoss players is hallucination imo.
Feedback on Vessels doesn't really work, as at high level most EMP's will be pre-emptive after Terran scans the protoss army and Protoss doesn't know a vessel is coming. Also doesn't help against anti-recall EMPs.
By the way hallucination has been used quite a lot during this year's tournaments to get an arbiter through terran turrets. I'm certain it has been done against mong on CB, and fairly sure it happened to other terrans.
Yeah but i was more thinking of hallucinated zealots as a first wave meatshield/to clear mines.
I think halu can be used to trigger mines to go towards opponents tanks if you halu a tank in a clump but its kinda hard to make sense of casting halu instead of storm on that spot i pretty much never use that spell :o should try smtg lawl at least just research it sometimes^^ I'm sure its great to send some fake arbiters out in front and lure vessels :o and known for allowing recalls that would have been interrupted by turrets or other fake zealots to clear mines why not eh^^
you really need a whole lot of hallus for them to be really do anythin. they take 2x damage, with splash, they evaporate quickly to tank shots. if you somehow have 10 full templars and can add 40 hallucinated zealots to your charge, I can see that being pretty damn good.. but that rarely happens, and generally mana is gonna be better spent storming. I can see a mass templar for mass hallu zealot charges be good in a mineral-sparse stalemate-y situation, but that's kinda it. and then you're left with a bunch of kinda useless templars or archons that are easily emped.
Oh but then you throw in a couple DAs. pimpest play right there.
well judging from the mechanics of the game hallucinations shouldnt trigger mines as the are energy, no? I wonder if hallucinated zealots can be used with a shuttle for bombs, and if u make hallucination of a shuttle full of zealots will that shuttle be empty? DA has its usage already, i dont think it can be effective in normal pvt excluding battlecruisers or mined out situation.
I remember playing 2v2. It was very long game, after crazy base trade, situation was both of our partners killed, almost no units and buildings left for each of us(all refugee style), i had only 1 undefended mining base on an island. Terran was about to fortify and set up a base at his last expo. As i was preparing all my units to attack, 2 dropships passed my army on a way to my island and i was about to lose my only nexus. I thought i dont want another base trade, so i decided to race against the dropships with the one fast shuttle i had. Loaded a goon and DA and charged after the dropships. I barely managed to catch up with the dropships just before they reach the drop point after the cliff and mind controlled the back one. Ive got 2 tanks, killed 4 goliaths from other dropship and saved my expo, it was gg.
On June 19 2017 06:27 TwiggyWan wrote: what i'd like to see is protoss players taking their 3rd at the terran 5th after a standard build, so they steal resources away from terran for the late game :p
And if terran wants to punish the base (assuming he finds it), protoss can either take the fight in the open or backstab the terran natural!
I never understood the expanding pattern of protosses. Why don't they just do like zerg does and expand early in corners? It's not exactly hard to use goons/cannons to block a ramp, neither is it to park two observers near the edges of the terran base to spot dropships.
The more spread out you are, the more holes there are .. and good Terrans have a knack of punching through those holes with vultures. Vultures are so good at killing probes, that you really need a good amount of defense to deflect it. Keeping your bases close together allows you to minimize the amount of defense you need to deflect the harass, which is really important to maximize your economy. Plus, if you take your third at a standard timing, then you won't have the force to bust Terran for a while (unless he is doing something outrageously greedy).
tldr: taking a faraway third against a good Terran will result in you taking a big economic hit either way, and fuck you over when he pushes out at whatever timing he chooses.
"EMP Arbiters and render the cloaking field null." stopped reading here
;D
on a brighter note: don't start from the assumption that God made starcraft. All 3 races aren't equally strong in all situations. Humans developed starcraft, without actually knowing what they're doing. Perfect balance cannot be achieved, and the reason that 'not the same amount of spellcasters are being used for all races' isn't the silver bullet that everyone oversaw.
Ah you kids are so cute. Darkchons are pretty cool, I don't see any situation in PvT though where they would be more valuable than literally almost anything else for the investment. At least in PvP they can get some value feedbacking multiple templar or in PvZ the dream is maelstroming a stacked group of mutalisks. (Mind control is easily a top contender for the worst spell in the game, sorry to say cause its really cool but I don't see any competitive use out of this.)
But honestly the reason you don't see these units is because Starcraft is an economic game and they are expensive in both time and resources. They are not worth it unless you a) are already using a strategy that involves dark templar and b) can catch your opponent off guard and get value out of it, which is why often times when you see them its from a player who is behind.
Bisu used Mind Control against Nal_rA in the semifinals of the PvZ Revolution MSL in 2007. It was an island or semi island map and Nal_rA was using Carriers. Considering that Bisu was dethroning the best Protoss of the time on his way to becoming the new best Protoss, this seems like a legitimate usage in a top competitive setting. But we don't see island maps much these days.
On June 20 2017 14:02 Djabanete wrote: Bisu used Mind Control against Nal_rA in the semifinals of the PvZ Revolution MSL in 2007. It was an island or semi island map and Nal_rA was using Carriers. Considering that Bisu was dethroning the best Protoss of the time on his way to becoming the new best Protoss, this seems like a legitimate usage in a top competitive setting. But we don't see island maps much these days.
Hmm, interesting, never saw that game. I guess you can get some good value that way considering how expensive carriers are and how long it takes to train them +8 interceptors can offset the time and resources to go into MC.
On June 18 2017 03:57 Liquid`Drone wrote: overlord for detection. This was during a time where zvp was basically 'zerg lurker contains protoss. either protoss breaks out and wins the game, or they don't, and lose'.
I did that to Mondragon during the TSL2 ladder stage on Destination. Opened FE +1 speedlots skipping stargate, he went muta, I grabbed a darchon, maelstrom and some archons, he had 2 lurkers at his nat by then, I added MC and allined with an overlord steal. Was the sickest moment of my bw career. Alas I don't have the replay anymore.
On June 18 2017 03:57 Liquid`Drone wrote: overlord for detection. This was during a time where zvp was basically 'zerg lurker contains protoss. either protoss breaks out and wins the game, or they don't, and lose'.
I did that to Mondragon during the TSL2 ladder stage on Destination. Opened FE +1 speedlots skipping stargate, he went muta, I grabbed a darchon, maelstrom and some archons, he had 2 lurkers at his nat by then, I added MC and allined with an overlord steal. Was the sickest moment of my bw career. Alas I don't have the replay anymore.
Ive seen korean progamers do the same thing, they get fast ove that is way harder to kill than obs and break out the lurker contain.
On June 20 2017 09:53 _Animus_ wrote: well judging from the mechanics of the game hallucinations shouldnt trigger mines as the are energy, no? I wonder if hallucinated zealots can be used with a shuttle for bombs, and if u make hallucination of a shuttle full of zealots will that shuttle be empty? DA has its usage already, i dont think it can be effective in normal pvt excluding battlecruisers or mined out situation.
I remember playing 2v2. It was very long game, after crazy base trade, situation was both of our partners killed, almost no units and buildings left for each of us(all refugee style), i had only 1 undefended mining base on an island. Terran was about to fortify and set up a base at his last expo. As i was preparing all my units to attack, 2 dropships passed my army on a way to my island and i was about to lose my only nexus. I thought i dont want another base trade, so i decided to race against the dropships with the one fast shuttle i had. Loaded a goon and DA and charged after the dropships. I barely managed to catch up with the dropships just before they reach the drop point after the cliff and mind controlled the back one. Ive got 2 tanks, killed 4 goliaths from other dropship and saved my expo, it was gg.
Hallucinations do trigger mines. The Hallu x Zealot suggestion can be seen in one of the earlier Pimpest Plays on Lost Temple. Hallucinated Shuttles can't carry units, even if the original Shuttle was.
As Djabanete mentioned, Bisu did steal Carriers vs. Nal_rA, but it is an incredibly niche strategy/situation. Ultimately, it doesn't give any weight to the OP's theory that Protoss are struggling/not reaching their maximum potential because they aren't using DA.
Maxed out p in advantage -> recall on a terran expansion -> mc an scv -> recall home -> go for 400/400 -> recall sieged tanks or mass bc with arbs -> gg. Sounds/might be hard to pull off in a real game though. I once saw a replay of a p player losing in a tvt, it was hilarious.
On June 20 2017 13:22 Spyfire242 wrote: Ah you kids are so cute. Darkchons are pretty cool, I don't see any situation in PvT though where they would be more valuable than literally almost anything else for the investment. At least in PvP they can get some value feedbacking multiple templar or in PvZ the dream is maelstroming a stacked group of mutalisks. (Mind control is easily a top contender for the worst spell in the game, sorry to say cause its really cool but I don't see any competitive use out of this.)
But honestly the reason you don't see these units is because Starcraft is an economic game and they are expensive in both time and resources. They are not worth it unless you a) are already using a strategy that involves dark templar and b) can catch your opponent off guard and get value out of it, which is why often times when you see them its from a player who is behind.
1. Terran favour against Protoss is news to me. Pretty sure that's only Flash. 2. Science Vessels have a lot of health, so actually feedback is not that great vs them. Your investment in a Dark Archon to nullify a unit is about equal to Terran investment in a Science Vessel which both nullify your arbiter and have useful spells like d-matrix for other situations. Dark Archon is just less useful. But good news, Protoss have a unit that is flexible too: the arbiter If your problem is your arbiter gets EMPed, having more arbiters is a better solution than trying to kill science vessels with feedback. Science Vessels already face peril against dragoons, compete for gas with tanks, so there's no really an overwhelming number of them. 3. Anytime you think shouldn't zerg use queens more or shouldn't Terran use ghosts or protoss use dark archon... It's not that any of these units are bad. It's that they're situational, usually very late game units. Build orders are very tight and every bin of gas is counted. First 100 lair, second 100 speedling, save for spire, get speed hydra, attack up, speed lord, get second gas to afford hydra production. It's all very tight, so it's actually harder than you think to incorporate an extra 350/350 or whatever and not die to a timing. That's why we only see these units in epic late games. And if they're unutilized in the meta, they're very hard to think of in those late games when you're just playing the tug of war and thinking more about strategic positioning than innovative unit compositions.
Bonus point: expensive to research, slow to build mana, fragile to keep alive, highly dependent on the opponent's unit comp... These are all big cons. Only in super late game can you kind of afford these tradeoffs, when games become kind of stalematey. Early on you just die to a timing, and the only value of these units is surprise if you're really got a special timing worked out that counters a strategy you are 90% sure will be used.
That said, you should play with these units all you like in your own games. They are fun to use and at the low level, there is not really such a thing as timing, since most players are just winging it.
On June 20 2017 13:22 Spyfire242 wrote: Ah you kids are so cute. Darkchons are pretty cool, I don't see any situation in PvT though where they would be more valuable than literally almost anything else for the investment. At least in PvP they can get some value feedbacking multiple templar or in PvZ the dream is maelstroming a stacked group of mutalisks. (Mind control is easily a top contender for the worst spell in the game, sorry to say cause its really cool but I don't see any competitive use out of this.)
But honestly the reason you don't see these units is because Starcraft is an economic game and they are expensive in both time and resources. They are not worth it unless you a) are already using a strategy that involves dark templar and b) can catch your opponent off guard and get value out of it, which is why often times when you see them its from a player who is behind.
Are you really trying to argue the viability of mind control by showing me a VoD where to me its pretty clear they are just messing around and he also loses in the end? Also I am not necessarily saying it cannot work in incredibly niche scenarios as someone else already pointed out, but the game is going on 2 decades old now, the potential of the DA has already been realized 10x over.
I also think that it is a GOOD thing that these units exist where their use is very niche/barely ever used, it makes it that much more exciting when they are brought out in a professional match. In SC2 Blizzard would just buff it until it became over-used, lol...
Edit: Paying a bit more attention at the end I noticed Mini actually won the stalemate with 2 buildings, which is pretty epic, but still doesn't change my argument.
On June 21 2017 01:31 Spyfire242 wrote: where to me its pretty clear they are just messing around and he also loses in the end?
That's very cute: you failed twice in a row.
On June 21 2017 01:31 Spyfire242 wrote: Also I am not necessarily saying it cannot work in incredibly niche scenarios .
On June 20 2017 13:22 Spyfire242 wrote: (Mind control is easily a top contender for the worst spell in the game, sorry to say cause its really cool but I don't see any competitive use out of this.)
But, whatever, you seem to be incredibly intelligent and well-informed person.
On June 20 2017 13:22 Spyfire242 wrote: (Mind control is easily a top contender for the worst spell in the game, sorry to say cause its really cool but I don't see any competitive use out of this.)
But, whatever, you seem to be incredibly intelligent and well-informed person.
When I say no competitive use I mean this isn't going to be a part of any players strategy, outside very niche situations like that where you can get value in a mined out map.
On June 18 2017 03:57 Liquid`Drone wrote: overlord for detection. This was during a time where zvp was basically 'zerg lurker contains protoss. either protoss breaks out and wins the game, or they don't, and lose'.
I did that to Mondragon during the TSL2 ladder stage on Destination. Opened FE +1 speedlots skipping stargate, he went muta, I grabbed a darchon, maelstrom and some archons, he had 2 lurkers at his nat by then, I added MC and allined with an overlord steal. Was the sickest moment of my bw career. Alas I don't have the replay anymore.
two of my most glorious inconsequential bw moments are related to these discussions. 1 was going queen hydra, him going guardians with a couple lurkers to defend with, and countering the lurkers through parasiting one of his overlords. The second was going carrier in pvp on gorky island, facing a fast dark archon counter, and re-countering with hallucination. That moment where I attacked with 4 real carriers and 4 hallucinated ones and saw two of the fake ones go pop from the mind control made me laugh out loud. :D
There was a korean game in which the P knew the Z was going 2 hatch muta so he made a DA and hit a Melstrom on the clumped mutas to win the game. I don't remember what game tho
On June 21 2017 04:38 ThunderJunk wrote: There was a korean game in which the P knew the Z was going 2 hatch muta so he made a DA and hit a Melstrom on the clumped mutas to win the game. I don't remember what game tho
The televised game with grrrr where he was pretty much retired, can't remember vs who, but won a drawn out pvz through fantastic use of maelstrom/psi storm combos
edit: I beleive it was vs zerglee
anyways as to the OP, I don't think it's quite that simple as "hey y weren't you guys using that unit". Good P players know about all the units, there's limited gas.(and time)
I guess technically they could be thrown in more often in very late game than they are. But I don't think it would have huge impact on winrates.
if you are in economic situation in late game where you want more cost efficiency to win in defense of the resources you have secured then investing in energy has good potential since as long as it has time to charge and recharge up, energy doesn't cost resources so over time it can be the most cost efficient and win the end game
On June 25 2017 22:54 ProMeTheus112 wrote: if you are in economic situation in late game where you want more cost efficiency to win in defense of the resources you have secured then investing in energy has good potential since as long as it has time to charge and recharge up, energy doesn't cost resources so over time it can be the most cost efficient and win the end game
Mind Control in particular is amazing too because you can target Queens with it, nullifying Zergs ability to trade energy for units, and making this stage of the game particularly difficult for Zergs.
Obviously, it's an uncommon occurrence, so not a problem usually. But as a Zerg, you definitely want to try and win before the Mind Control/mine out phase of the game. From all the high end Korean PvZ games I've watched, turtling with a sufficient amount of Dark Archons and High Templar on a mined out map is essentially a victory condition for Protoss, if employed properly.
Another thing about Mind Control is that it's mechanically easy to cast. Since you can only Mind Control a target once, you can essentially "smart cast" Mind Control with a whole group of Dark Archons selected -- there is no need to clone it like other spells. It has a pretty healthy range too.
EPT
Protoss needs to use the micro time/resources/ actual time to get templars and storm Terran units. Either that or 2 stargate arbs. Feedbacking a vessel or even worse mind controling one is just a huge waste of time related to resources based on other options you could do with that apm. Add up the total resources of two DTs and mind control because you can basically assume the DA will die(any top level terran will target it with a few vults killing it quick). There's a reason pro gamers don't do this. I'm sorry you are not smarter than them. It's just really bad. That's why you never see it from the best players in the world. 
As I still do, despite playing it for 20 years. There is a lot of room for creativity especially at lower levels of play. It just takes a strong understanding of the basics to make it work properly. I think even the great Flash would say he still has things to learn about the game ( just much less than the rest of us mortals). 
