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On April 19 2017 20:19 pvsnp wrote:
Balance issues completely aside (there was a nerf after all), watching only one unit massed to win is just kinda sickening. Not like the game was some super-low-eco insane micro victory either. I mean sOs did a good job, but watching it happen was just bleah.
When was the last time only lings or only marines won a non-cheese game?
No wonder I've never liked ZvZ.
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France12750 Posts
On April 19 2017 20:18 Olli wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2017 20:16 Poopi wrote:On April 19 2017 20:15 Olli wrote:On April 19 2017 20:14 pvsnp wrote:Would you expect protoss to make 0 adepts?
Of course not, but I do expect them to make something else that can shoot too. Anything else. Make robo viable again then. Any protoss composition is viable tbh. At best it's not optimal, but never shit bad. That's like saying mech is viable in TvP. At best it's not optimal, right? You know exactly what I meant. Robo gets countered way too hard by tank pushes, and the adept nerf actually makes that even worse. Robo is plain bad.
That doesn't make sense o;o.
With robo you can scout if the terran is going for tank push or not, if he's not then you are pretty fine. If he is, you can buy time until you have tools to deal with it and be fine.
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Austria24416 Posts
On April 19 2017 20:19 Ej_ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2017 20:17 Olli wrote:On April 19 2017 20:15 Aunvilgodess wrote:On April 19 2017 20:13 Olli wrote:On April 19 2017 20:12 Aunvilgodess wrote:On April 19 2017 20:07 Olli wrote:On April 19 2017 20:02 Poopi wrote:On April 19 2017 19:59 Olli wrote:On April 19 2017 19:55 pvsnp wrote:sOs is still the most terrible Korean protoss among pro ones, impressive!
Too bad he isn't in MajOr or Scarlett group He's still more than good enough to beat Losira/Impact. He'll get out of this group just fine. Highest skill era. Welp sOs won 2 blizzcon so we can see how much more skilled hots era was /s sOs is nowhere near as good as he used to be, as are a lot of other players. You mean Protoss is worse at cheeses and all-ins. I'd say protoss has perhaps a third of its strategical depth in LotV. "strategical depth". People read so much into those games that isn't there. Like when casters are super amazed when somebody flips a coin and go like OMG HE KNEW IT! chronoboost sucks meanwhile here I am, behind in workers every ZvP
Because inject sucks too, and you're forced to make units early to defend aggression. Little to do with chronoboost.
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Austria24416 Posts
On April 19 2017 20:21 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2017 20:18 Olli wrote:On April 19 2017 20:16 Poopi wrote:On April 19 2017 20:15 Olli wrote:On April 19 2017 20:14 pvsnp wrote:Would you expect protoss to make 0 adepts?
Of course not, but I do expect them to make something else that can shoot too. Anything else. Make robo viable again then. Any protoss composition is viable tbh. At best it's not optimal, but never shit bad. That's like saying mech is viable in TvP. At best it's not optimal, right? You know exactly what I meant. Robo gets countered way too hard by tank pushes, and the adept nerf actually makes that even worse. Robo is plain bad. That doesn't make sense o;o. With robo you can scout if the terran is going for tank push or not, if he's not then you are pretty fine. If he is, you can buy time until you have tools to deal with it and be fine.
Tell me how to buy time. Tell all the pros as well, while you're at it. I'm sure you know better.
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On April 19 2017 20:16 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2017 20:15 Olli wrote:On April 19 2017 20:14 pvsnp wrote:Would you expect protoss to make 0 adepts?
Of course not, but I do expect them to make something else that can shoot too. Anything else. Make robo viable again then. Any protoss composition is viable tbh. At best it's not optimal, but never shit bad.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/BusKfKu.jpg)
User was warned for this post
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On April 19 2017 20:21 Olli wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2017 20:21 Poopi wrote:On April 19 2017 20:18 Olli wrote:On April 19 2017 20:16 Poopi wrote:On April 19 2017 20:15 Olli wrote:On April 19 2017 20:14 pvsnp wrote:Would you expect protoss to make 0 adepts?
Of course not, but I do expect them to make something else that can shoot too. Anything else. Make robo viable again then. Any protoss composition is viable tbh. At best it's not optimal, but never shit bad. That's like saying mech is viable in TvP. At best it's not optimal, right? You know exactly what I meant. Robo gets countered way too hard by tank pushes, and the adept nerf actually makes that even worse. Robo is plain bad. That doesn't make sense o;o. With robo you can scout if the terran is going for tank push or not, if he's not then you are pretty fine. If he is, you can buy time until you have tools to deal with it and be fine. You scout it and you die. Great?
Why do you continue to argue with Poopi? 
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Austria24416 Posts
On April 19 2017 20:22 Phredxor wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2017 20:21 Olli wrote:On April 19 2017 20:21 Poopi wrote:On April 19 2017 20:18 Olli wrote:On April 19 2017 20:16 Poopi wrote:On April 19 2017 20:15 Olli wrote:On April 19 2017 20:14 pvsnp wrote:Would you expect protoss to make 0 adepts?
Of course not, but I do expect them to make something else that can shoot too. Anything else. Make robo viable again then. Any protoss composition is viable tbh. At best it's not optimal, but never shit bad. That's like saying mech is viable in TvP. At best it's not optimal, right? You know exactly what I meant. Robo gets countered way too hard by tank pushes, and the adept nerf actually makes that even worse. Robo is plain bad. That doesn't make sense o;o. With robo you can scout if the terran is going for tank push or not, if he's not then you are pretty fine. If he is, you can buy time until you have tools to deal with it and be fine. You scout it and you die. Great? Why do you continue to argue with Poopi?
It feels like arguing with every Terran ever, and that just feels good.
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On April 19 2017 20:23 Olli wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2017 20:22 Phredxor wrote:On April 19 2017 20:21 Olli wrote:On April 19 2017 20:21 Poopi wrote:On April 19 2017 20:18 Olli wrote:On April 19 2017 20:16 Poopi wrote:On April 19 2017 20:15 Olli wrote:On April 19 2017 20:14 pvsnp wrote:Would you expect protoss to make 0 adepts?
Of course not, but I do expect them to make something else that can shoot too. Anything else. Make robo viable again then. Any protoss composition is viable tbh. At best it's not optimal, but never shit bad. That's like saying mech is viable in TvP. At best it's not optimal, right? You know exactly what I meant. Robo gets countered way too hard by tank pushes, and the adept nerf actually makes that even worse. Robo is plain bad. That doesn't make sense o;o. With robo you can scout if the terran is going for tank push or not, if he's not then you are pretty fine. If he is, you can buy time until you have tools to deal with it and be fine. You scout it and you die. Great? Why do you continue to argue with Poopi? It feels like arguing with every Terran ever, and that just feels good.
Fair enough, can't fault that.
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France12750 Posts
On April 19 2017 20:21 Olli wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2017 20:21 Poopi wrote:On April 19 2017 20:18 Olli wrote:On April 19 2017 20:16 Poopi wrote:On April 19 2017 20:15 Olli wrote:On April 19 2017 20:14 pvsnp wrote:Would you expect protoss to make 0 adepts?
Of course not, but I do expect them to make something else that can shoot too. Anything else. Make robo viable again then. Any protoss composition is viable tbh. At best it's not optimal, but never shit bad. That's like saying mech is viable in TvP. At best it's not optimal, right? You know exactly what I meant. Robo gets countered way too hard by tank pushes, and the adept nerf actually makes that even worse. Robo is plain bad. That doesn't make sense o;o. With robo you can scout if the terran is going for tank push or not, if he's not then you are pretty fine. If he is, you can buy time until you have tools to deal with it and be fine. Tell me how to buy time. Tell all the pros as well, while you're at it. I'm sure you know better.
LOL.
Yeah it's not like pros are shitting on every terran for free since months.
Like you are saying that pros struggle against terran "tank pushes", but foreigners terrans can't even qualify for qualifiers (see WCS), so yeah I guess the poor protoss are struggling against these pushes.
Doesn't make sense.
Dns 3-1ed uThermal, enough said :/.
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On April 19 2017 20:21 Olli wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2017 20:19 Ej_ wrote:On April 19 2017 20:17 Olli wrote:On April 19 2017 20:15 Aunvilgodess wrote:On April 19 2017 20:13 Olli wrote:On April 19 2017 20:12 Aunvilgodess wrote:On April 19 2017 20:07 Olli wrote:On April 19 2017 20:02 Poopi wrote:On April 19 2017 19:59 Olli wrote:On April 19 2017 19:55 pvsnp wrote:
[quote]
He's still more than good enough to beat Losira/Impact. He'll get out of this group just fine. Highest skill era. Welp sOs won 2 blizzcon so we can see how much more skilled hots era was /s sOs is nowhere near as good as he used to be, as are a lot of other players. You mean Protoss is worse at cheeses and all-ins. I'd say protoss has perhaps a third of its strategical depth in LotV. "strategical depth". People read so much into those games that isn't there. Like when casters are super amazed when somebody flips a coin and go like OMG HE KNEW IT! chronoboost sucks meanwhile here I am, behind in workers every ZvP Because inject sucks too, and you're forced to make units early to defend aggression. Little to do with chronoboost.
I think the 12 worker start (or even the addition of the mothership core if you want to go that far back) changes more than injects. The fact that protoss can forgo forge openings completely allows protoss to pretty much always be the aggressor in the early game
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On April 19 2017 20:25 Zzzapper wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2017 20:21 Olli wrote:On April 19 2017 20:19 Ej_ wrote:On April 19 2017 20:17 Olli wrote:On April 19 2017 20:15 Aunvilgodess wrote:On April 19 2017 20:13 Olli wrote:On April 19 2017 20:12 Aunvilgodess wrote:On April 19 2017 20:07 Olli wrote:On April 19 2017 20:02 Poopi wrote:On April 19 2017 19:59 Olli wrote:
[quote]
Highest skill era. Welp sOs won 2 blizzcon so we can see how much more skilled hots era was /s sOs is nowhere near as good as he used to be, as are a lot of other players. You mean Protoss is worse at cheeses and all-ins. I'd say protoss has perhaps a third of its strategical depth in LotV. "strategical depth". People read so much into those games that isn't there. Like when casters are super amazed when somebody flips a coin and go like OMG HE KNEW IT! chronoboost sucks meanwhile here I am, behind in workers every ZvP Because inject sucks too, and you're forced to make units early to defend aggression. Little to do with chronoboost. I think the 12 worker start (or even the addition of the mothership core if you want to go that far back) changes more than injects. The fact that protoss can forgo forge openings completely allows protoss to pretty much always be the aggressor in the early game
it's really just because of the adept+chrono. With 6 workers chrono would be even stronger early game.
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Austria24416 Posts
On April 19 2017 20:24 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2017 20:21 Olli wrote:On April 19 2017 20:21 Poopi wrote:On April 19 2017 20:18 Olli wrote:On April 19 2017 20:16 Poopi wrote:On April 19 2017 20:15 Olli wrote:On April 19 2017 20:14 pvsnp wrote:Would you expect protoss to make 0 adepts?
Of course not, but I do expect them to make something else that can shoot too. Anything else. Make robo viable again then. Any protoss composition is viable tbh. At best it's not optimal, but never shit bad. That's like saying mech is viable in TvP. At best it's not optimal, right? You know exactly what I meant. Robo gets countered way too hard by tank pushes, and the adept nerf actually makes that even worse. Robo is plain bad. That doesn't make sense o;o. With robo you can scout if the terran is going for tank push or not, if he's not then you are pretty fine. If he is, you can buy time until you have tools to deal with it and be fine. Tell me how to buy time. Tell all the pros as well, while you're at it. I'm sure you know better. LOL. Yeah it's not like pros are shitting on every terran for free since months. Like you are saying that pros struggle against terran "tank pushes", but foreigners terrans can't even qualify for qualifiers (see WCS), so yeah I guess the poor protoss are struggling against these pushes. Doesn't make sense. Dns 3-1ed uThermal, enough said :/.
Foreign terrans have always been bad though. Meanwhile Korean Terrans won tournaments.
Plus "for months" is a hilarious statement considering April had the first positive winrate for PvT since last year. We hit 41% for a while. Even Terrans admitted that Protoss sucked prior to the widow mine nerf. You just cannot keep ignoring this.
Phoenix/adept is good now because mines don't counter it well anymore. Tank pushes though were never addressed, and they'd already basically eliminated robo from the game even before adepts were nerfed as a core army unit.
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Impact gonna lose this, because he keeps wasting gas on bane runbies.
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Austria24416 Posts
On April 19 2017 20:26 Ej_ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2017 20:25 Zzzapper wrote:On April 19 2017 20:21 Olli wrote:On April 19 2017 20:19 Ej_ wrote:On April 19 2017 20:17 Olli wrote:On April 19 2017 20:15 Aunvilgodess wrote:On April 19 2017 20:13 Olli wrote:On April 19 2017 20:12 Aunvilgodess wrote:On April 19 2017 20:07 Olli wrote:On April 19 2017 20:02 Poopi wrote:
[quote]
Welp sOs won 2 blizzcon so we can see how much more skilled hots era was /s sOs is nowhere near as good as he used to be, as are a lot of other players. You mean Protoss is worse at cheeses and all-ins. I'd say protoss has perhaps a third of its strategical depth in LotV. "strategical depth". People read so much into those games that isn't there. Like when casters are super amazed when somebody flips a coin and go like OMG HE KNEW IT! chronoboost sucks meanwhile here I am, behind in workers every ZvP Because inject sucks too, and you're forced to make units early to defend aggression. Little to do with chronoboost. I think the 12 worker start (or even the eddition of the mothership core if you want to go that far back) changes more than injects. The fact that protoss can forgo forge openings completely allows protoss to pretty much always be the aggressor in the early game it's really just because of the adept+chrono. With 6 workers chrono would be even stronger early game.
I don't think it's chrono at all. It was far better in HotS and zerg was always ahead in workers. It's a mixture of zerg being forced into safe openings because of adepts, protoss pressure builds requiring zerg to make a TON of units until midgame (archon drop/3gate adept), and injects being nerfed as well.
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I hope you've been taking your swimming lessons, Poopi!
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On April 19 2017 20:26 Ej_ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2017 20:25 Zzzapper wrote:On April 19 2017 20:21 Olli wrote:On April 19 2017 20:19 Ej_ wrote:On April 19 2017 20:17 Olli wrote:On April 19 2017 20:15 Aunvilgodess wrote:On April 19 2017 20:13 Olli wrote:On April 19 2017 20:12 Aunvilgodess wrote:On April 19 2017 20:07 Olli wrote:On April 19 2017 20:02 Poopi wrote:
[quote]
Welp sOs won 2 blizzcon so we can see how much more skilled hots era was /s sOs is nowhere near as good as he used to be, as are a lot of other players. You mean Protoss is worse at cheeses and all-ins. I'd say protoss has perhaps a third of its strategical depth in LotV. "strategical depth". People read so much into those games that isn't there. Like when casters are super amazed when somebody flips a coin and go like OMG HE KNEW IT! chronoboost sucks meanwhile here I am, behind in workers every ZvP Because inject sucks too, and you're forced to make units early to defend aggression. Little to do with chronoboost. I think the 12 worker start (or even the eddition of the mothership core if you want to go that far back) changes more than injects. The fact that protoss can forgo forge openings completely allows protoss to pretty much always be the aggressor in the early game it's really just because of the adept+chrono. With 6 workers chrono would be even stronger early game.
I was thinking of early pools more than the number itself. I think they played in important role in limiting what openings were viable for protoss. Of course people still opened nexus first occasionally but adding an opening as aggressive as 6 pool strongly shifts the Nash equilibrium toward safer openings
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On April 19 2017 20:31 Zzzapper wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2017 20:26 Ej_ wrote:On April 19 2017 20:25 Zzzapper wrote:On April 19 2017 20:21 Olli wrote:On April 19 2017 20:19 Ej_ wrote:On April 19 2017 20:17 Olli wrote:On April 19 2017 20:15 Aunvilgodess wrote:On April 19 2017 20:13 Olli wrote:On April 19 2017 20:12 Aunvilgodess wrote:On April 19 2017 20:07 Olli wrote:
[quote]
sOs is nowhere near as good as he used to be, as are a lot of other players. You mean Protoss is worse at cheeses and all-ins. I'd say protoss has perhaps a third of its strategical depth in LotV. "strategical depth". People read so much into those games that isn't there. Like when casters are super amazed when somebody flips a coin and go like OMG HE KNEW IT! chronoboost sucks meanwhile here I am, behind in workers every ZvP Because inject sucks too, and you're forced to make units early to defend aggression. Little to do with chronoboost. I think the 12 worker start (or even the eddition of the mothership core if you want to go that far back) changes more than injects. The fact that protoss can forgo forge openings completely allows protoss to pretty much always be the aggressor in the early game it's really just because of the adept+chrono. With 6 workers chrono would be even stronger early game. I was thinking of early pools more than the number itself. I think they played in important role in limiting what openings were viable for protoss. Of course people still opened nexus first ocassionally but adding an opening as aggressive as 6 pool strongly shifts the Nash equilibrium toward safer openings
Nexus first isn't safe in LotV and gate first has been safe ever since MSC was added.
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France12750 Posts
On April 19 2017 20:28 Olli wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2017 20:24 Poopi wrote:On April 19 2017 20:21 Olli wrote:On April 19 2017 20:21 Poopi wrote:On April 19 2017 20:18 Olli wrote:On April 19 2017 20:16 Poopi wrote:On April 19 2017 20:15 Olli wrote:On April 19 2017 20:14 pvsnp wrote:Would you expect protoss to make 0 adepts?
Of course not, but I do expect them to make something else that can shoot too. Anything else. Make robo viable again then. Any protoss composition is viable tbh. At best it's not optimal, but never shit bad. That's like saying mech is viable in TvP. At best it's not optimal, right? You know exactly what I meant. Robo gets countered way too hard by tank pushes, and the adept nerf actually makes that even worse. Robo is plain bad. That doesn't make sense o;o. With robo you can scout if the terran is going for tank push or not, if he's not then you are pretty fine. If he is, you can buy time until you have tools to deal with it and be fine. Tell me how to buy time. Tell all the pros as well, while you're at it. I'm sure you know better. LOL. Yeah it's not like pros are shitting on every terran for free since months. Like you are saying that pros struggle against terran "tank pushes", but foreigners terrans can't even qualify for qualifiers (see WCS), so yeah I guess the poor protoss are struggling against these pushes. Doesn't make sense. Dns 3-1ed uThermal, enough said :/. Foreign terrans have always been bad though. Meanwhile Korean Terrans won tournaments. Plus "for months" is a hilarious statement considering April had the first positive winrate for PvT since last year. We hit 41% for a while. Even Terrans admitted that Protoss sucked prior to the widow mine nerf. You just cannot keep ignoring this. Phoenix/adept is good now because mines don't counter it well anymore. Tank pushes though were never addressed, and they'd already basically eliminated robo from the game even before adepts were nerfed as a core army unit.
Yeah the goold old "foreign terrans" are bad, which is just not true.
There are two explanations: terran is far harder (a lot of times the good explanation), that's why you can do fine while being less than perfect in certain areas as Z/P, as MarineLord said, and terran is shit. Post widow mine nerf it was the latter, since Korean terrans got shat on too.
Winrate doesn't tell the whole story, protoss sucked before the liberator nerf, not widow mine nerf, protoss was very strong after the liberator nerf.
Plus if you wanna argue "uh foreigners terrans suck", I can argue that Korean terrans, at least most of them, are better than the other players anyways, so they deserve to win.
Which is kinda true, yet I don't use that as an argument, because it's a bs argument.
edit: and korean terrans winning tournaments isn't really true, KR terrans won foreign tournaments against mostly far inferior opposition, whereas Protoss won the more prestigious KR tourneys with Stats and herO.
So if we argue: "but TY won more $$ so terrans were doing better", then I guess Jaedong was as good in sc2 as he was in BW, since he made a shitton of money off of foreigners slaying.
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No, spire isn't a real thing in ZvZ. You don't go roaches into mutas. No.
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I always finish your sandwich
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EPT
