|
Norway839 Posts
On April 19 2017 20:33 Ej_ wrote:
No, spire isn't a real thing in ZvZ. You don't go roaches into mutas. No.
it does see use, even in games similar to this one :p
|
Say what you will about Blizzard but at least ZvZ got better.
|
Can Shine show if Impact has +2 ;__;
|
Guys I made it
What is this I see on LickyPiddy? Deadwing in 2017?
|
On April 19 2017 20:36 Ej_ wrote:
Can Shine show if Impact has +2 ;__;
I don't think he does.
|
On April 19 2017 20:35 Liquid`Snute wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2017 20:33 Ej_ wrote:
No, spire isn't a real thing in ZvZ. You don't go roaches into mutas. No. it does see use, even in games similar to this one :p
Don't you just die to infestors?
|
Austria24417 Posts
On April 19 2017 20:33 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2017 20:28 Olli wrote:On April 19 2017 20:24 Poopi wrote:On April 19 2017 20:21 Olli wrote:On April 19 2017 20:21 Poopi wrote:On April 19 2017 20:18 Olli wrote:On April 19 2017 20:16 Poopi wrote:On April 19 2017 20:15 Olli wrote:On April 19 2017 20:14 pvsnp wrote:Would you expect protoss to make 0 adepts?
Of course not, but I do expect them to make something else that can shoot too. Anything else. Make robo viable again then. Any protoss composition is viable tbh. At best it's not optimal, but never shit bad. That's like saying mech is viable in TvP. At best it's not optimal, right? You know exactly what I meant. Robo gets countered way too hard by tank pushes, and the adept nerf actually makes that even worse. Robo is plain bad. That doesn't make sense o;o. With robo you can scout if the terran is going for tank push or not, if he's not then you are pretty fine. If he is, you can buy time until you have tools to deal with it and be fine. Tell me how to buy time. Tell all the pros as well, while you're at it. I'm sure you know better. LOL. Yeah it's not like pros are shitting on every terran for free since months. Like you are saying that pros struggle against terran "tank pushes", but foreigners terrans can't even qualify for qualifiers (see WCS), so yeah I guess the poor protoss are struggling against these pushes. Doesn't make sense. Dns 3-1ed uThermal, enough said :/. Foreign terrans have always been bad though. Meanwhile Korean Terrans won tournaments. Plus "for months" is a hilarious statement considering April had the first positive winrate for PvT since last year. We hit 41% for a while. Even Terrans admitted that Protoss sucked prior to the widow mine nerf. You just cannot keep ignoring this. Phoenix/adept is good now because mines don't counter it well anymore. Tank pushes though were never addressed, and they'd already basically eliminated robo from the game even before adepts were nerfed as a core army unit. Yeah the goold old "foreign terrans" are bad, which is just not true. There are two explanations: terran is far harder (a lot of times the good explanation), that's why you can do fine while being less than perfect in certain areas as Z/P, as MarineLord said, and terran is shit. Post widow mine nerf it was the latter, since Korean terrans got shat on too. Winrate doesn't tell the whole story, protoss sucked before the liberator nerf, not widow mine nerf, protoss was very strong after the liberator nerf. Plus if you wanna argue "uh foreigners terrans suck", I can argue that Korean terrans, at least most of them, are better than the other players anyways, so they deserve to win. Which is kinda true, yet I don't use that as an argument, because it's a bs argument. edit: and korean terrans winning tournaments isn't really true, KR terrans won foreign tournaments against mostly far inferior opposition, whereas Protoss won the more prestigious KR tourneys with Stats and herO.
Terran is more mechanically demanding, and that's the aspect that foreigners have always been far behind Koreans. That's why foreign Terrans were never at the level that their zergs/some protoss were. You need to be better mechanically to get the most out of Terran.
The liberator nerf changed essentially nothing. Winrates don't tell the whole story, yes, but over a span of a few months, they do become relevant. Anyway, I'm done arguing about this.
|
On April 19 2017 20:32 Ej_ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2017 20:31 Zzzapper wrote:On April 19 2017 20:26 Ej_ wrote:On April 19 2017 20:25 Zzzapper wrote:On April 19 2017 20:21 Olli wrote:On April 19 2017 20:19 Ej_ wrote:On April 19 2017 20:17 Olli wrote:On April 19 2017 20:15 Aunvilgodess wrote:On April 19 2017 20:13 Olli wrote:On April 19 2017 20:12 Aunvilgodess wrote:
[quote]
You mean Protoss is worse at cheeses and all-ins. I'd say protoss has perhaps a third of its strategical depth in LotV. "strategical depth". People read so much into those games that isn't there. Like when casters are super amazed when somebody flips a coin and go like OMG HE KNEW IT! chronoboost sucks meanwhile here I am, behind in workers every ZvP Because inject sucks too, and you're forced to make units early to defend aggression. Little to do with chronoboost. I think the 12 worker start (or even the eddition of the mothership core if you want to go that far back) changes more than injects. The fact that protoss can forgo forge openings completely allows protoss to pretty much always be the aggressor in the early game it's really just because of the adept+chrono. With 6 workers chrono would be even stronger early game. I was thinking of early pools more than the number itself. I think they played in important role in limiting what openings were viable for protoss. Of course people still opened nexus first ocassionally but adding an opening as aggressive as 6 pool strongly shifts the Nash equilibrium toward safer openings Nexus first isn't safe in LotV and gate first has been safe ever since MSC was added.
Still, openings like gate nexus core with the first pylon on a super wide natural ramp weren't nearly as commonplace before LotV
|
Seeker
Where dat snitch at?37024 Posts
Poll: Recommend Losers' Match Game 1?★★★★★ (0) 0% ★★★★ (5) 56% ★★★ (3) 33% ★★ (1) 11% ★ (0) 0% 9 total votes Your vote: Recommend Losers' Match Game 1? (Vote): ★★★★★
(Vote): ★★★★
(Vote): ★★★
(Vote): ★★
(Vote): ★
|
no, the smartest Protoss is Lilbow
e: oh wow INnoVation won game 3? I thought it had to be sOs after all the adept whine
|
At least a good game at GSL, that it had to be ZvZ amazes me
|
This is some fantastic singing.
|
On April 19 2017 20:38 Zzzapper wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2017 20:32 Ej_ wrote:On April 19 2017 20:31 Zzzapper wrote:On April 19 2017 20:26 Ej_ wrote:On April 19 2017 20:25 Zzzapper wrote:On April 19 2017 20:21 Olli wrote:On April 19 2017 20:19 Ej_ wrote:On April 19 2017 20:17 Olli wrote:On April 19 2017 20:15 Aunvilgodess wrote:On April 19 2017 20:13 Olli wrote:
[quote]
I'd say protoss has perhaps a third of its strategical depth in LotV. "strategical depth". People read so much into those games that isn't there. Like when casters are super amazed when somebody flips a coin and go like OMG HE KNEW IT! chronoboost sucks meanwhile here I am, behind in workers every ZvP Because inject sucks too, and you're forced to make units early to defend aggression. Little to do with chronoboost. I think the 12 worker start (or even the eddition of the mothership core if you want to go that far back) changes more than injects. The fact that protoss can forgo forge openings completely allows protoss to pretty much always be the aggressor in the early game it's really just because of the adept+chrono. With 6 workers chrono would be even stronger early game. I was thinking of early pools more than the number itself. I think they played in important role in limiting what openings were viable for protoss. Of course people still opened nexus first ocassionally but adding an opening as aggressive as 6 pool strongly shifts the Nash equilibrium toward safer openings Nexus first isn't safe in LotV and gate first has been safe ever since MSC was added. Still, openings like gate nexus core with the first pylon on a super wide natural ramp weren't nearly as commonplace before LotV
Gate-nexus-core with pylon & gate on the lowground was pretty standard for the last year of HotS
|
Reviewing what has happened earlier today, lol INnoVation won a game on Deadwing even though he didn't remember what the spawns were.
|
On April 19 2017 20:41 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2017 20:38 Zzzapper wrote:On April 19 2017 20:32 Ej_ wrote:On April 19 2017 20:31 Zzzapper wrote:On April 19 2017 20:26 Ej_ wrote:On April 19 2017 20:25 Zzzapper wrote:On April 19 2017 20:21 Olli wrote:On April 19 2017 20:19 Ej_ wrote:On April 19 2017 20:17 Olli wrote:On April 19 2017 20:15 Aunvilgodess wrote:
[quote]
"strategical depth".
People read so much into those games that isn't there. Like when casters are super amazed when somebody flips a coin and go like OMG HE KNEW IT! chronoboost sucks meanwhile here I am, behind in workers every ZvP Because inject sucks too, and you're forced to make units early to defend aggression. Little to do with chronoboost. I think the 12 worker start (or even the eddition of the mothership core if you want to go that far back) changes more than injects. The fact that protoss can forgo forge openings completely allows protoss to pretty much always be the aggressor in the early game it's really just because of the adept+chrono. With 6 workers chrono would be even stronger early game. I was thinking of early pools more than the number itself. I think they played in important role in limiting what openings were viable for protoss. Of course people still opened nexus first ocassionally but adding an opening as aggressive as 6 pool strongly shifts the Nash equilibrium toward safer openings Nexus first isn't safe in LotV and gate first has been safe ever since MSC was added. Still, openings like gate nexus core with the first pylon on a super wide natural ramp weren't nearly as commonplace before LotV Gate-nexus-core with pylon & gate on the lowground was pretty standard for the last year of HotS
Greatly exhibited in Life vs Classic and Life vs sOs where they both defend 9pool flawlessly on Coda.
|
On April 19 2017 20:42 Elentos wrote:
Reviewing what has happened earlier today, lol INnoVation won a game on Deadwing even though he didn't remember what the spawns were.
I find it interesting how noone mentions that the game actually shows you the spawns
|
On April 19 2017 20:42 Elentos wrote:
Reviewing what has happened earlier today, lol INnoVation won a game on Deadwing even though he didn't remember what the spawns were.
I call it luck!
+ Show Spoiler +
|
|
|
On April 19 2017 20:42 Ej_ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2017 20:41 Elentos wrote:On April 19 2017 20:38 Zzzapper wrote:On April 19 2017 20:32 Ej_ wrote:On April 19 2017 20:31 Zzzapper wrote:On April 19 2017 20:26 Ej_ wrote:On April 19 2017 20:25 Zzzapper wrote:On April 19 2017 20:21 Olli wrote:On April 19 2017 20:19 Ej_ wrote:On April 19 2017 20:17 Olli wrote:
[quote]
chronoboost sucks meanwhile here I am, behind in workers every ZvP Because inject sucks too, and you're forced to make units early to defend aggression. Little to do with chronoboost. I think the 12 worker start (or even the eddition of the mothership core if you want to go that far back) changes more than injects. The fact that protoss can forgo forge openings completely allows protoss to pretty much always be the aggressor in the early game it's really just because of the adept+chrono. With 6 workers chrono would be even stronger early game. I was thinking of early pools more than the number itself. I think they played in important role in limiting what openings were viable for protoss. Of course people still opened nexus first ocassionally but adding an opening as aggressive as 6 pool strongly shifts the Nash equilibrium toward safer openings Nexus first isn't safe in LotV and gate first has been safe ever since MSC was added. Still, openings like gate nexus core with the first pylon on a super wide natural ramp weren't nearly as commonplace before LotV Gate-nexus-core with pylon & gate on the lowground was pretty standard for the last year of HotS Greatly exhibited in Life vs Classic and Life vs sOs where they both defend 9pool flawlessly on Coda.
I do believe in at least Classic's case it was a 6-pool too.
|
France12883 Posts
On April 19 2017 20:43 opisska wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2017 20:42 Elentos wrote:
Reviewing what has happened earlier today, lol INnoVation won a game on Deadwing even though he didn't remember what the spawns were. I find it interesting how noone mentions that the game actually shows you the spawns
Does it work on custom/old maps tho?
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT![[image loading]](https://thesourcingcrowd.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/7.jpg)
