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[ignorant foreign novice player]: unit x is not enough used we need to buff unit x
race y is struggling too much in this matchup we need to change this.
[ignorant foreign novice player] has some thoughts about balance on a novice level and comes up with a solution
but is not aware what the perspective is on balance in the korean scene and does not stop to think why progamers
have no issues concerning balance at all nor did the game for the last 15years..
instead continues making posts about ''balance changes in broodwar''
*[ignorant foreign novice player] you are a wonderful addition to the teamliquid forums we look forward to your next master plan about ''balance changes'' and buffs!
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On January 27 2017 06:12 onlystar wrote:
[ignorant foreign novice player] has some thoughts about balance on a novice level and comes up with a solution but is not aware what the perspective is on balance in the korean scene and does not stop to think why progamers have no issues concerning balance at all nor did the game for the last 15years..
instead continues making posts about ''balance changes in broodwar''
I think Stork said on his stream sometime that ZvP is broken as heck.
I also can understand that a lot of other Korean pros wouldn't want to re-learn the game, in effect, if there were significant balance changes. Plus, if it were the same designers who did balancing in SC2 trying to make BW changes, well, the history there probably wouldn't inspire much confidence among the pros, either. 
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On January 26 2017 14:07 ninazerg wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2017 07:31 [[Starlight]] wrote:On January 26 2017 02:40 neobowman wrote:On January 26 2017 02:18 Antisocialmunky wrote:
Maybe we should just have the mods change this to the Balance Whine thread. I think SCII had a stickied one for WoL.
I don't care about balance or whatever because its mostly an issue of maps these days, but I'm sick of every thread turning into a balance whine thread. There seems to be a social stigma in the Brood War community about discussing balance changes. I think it's come half from acceptance that Blizz won't be balance changing and half from balance change threads usually devolving into poorly thought out arguments. I don't think it should be something avoided. If people are rational and open to ideas then it can lead to a lot of good discussion. Balance is just fun to talk about, even though I doubt Bliz is going to do anything there. The discussions do tend to go off the rails though, due to several kinds of unhelpful posters: 1- The guy who can't even accept that a balance discussion is going on and gets mad, aka "Shut up you idiots, BALANCE IS PERFECT, SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP, YAAAAAAAAAAAH!!!!" If you assume everyone is a screaming lunatic, you can make just about anyone sound bad. Regardless of their 'tone', however, they would be right. I have not seen a legitimate case of anyone proposing and then testing a balance change. Either a balance change fixes a glaring issue with the gameplay or it doesn't. I don't see a reason for silly ones like "Let's give the Queen 5 more energy", because it's such a tiny change that it's not even worth discussing.
Well, it's not hard to make a screaming lunatic sound like a screaming lunatic, Nina. IIRC, there was a guy in this very thread who was screaming that everyone talking about balance were "morons", and he got temp-banned for it.
And testing a balance change to the point where such testing would be rigorous enough to matter is difficult... no one here has there own QA department, to my knowledge. Or access to multiple friendly Korean programers who'd be willing to test as well.
I don't understand what your problem with humor is.
My problem with humor is that I like it. The tired old "durh hurh, lets set tanks to 10000 damage and make it fire nukes" balance discussion trolling is worn pretty smooth by now. The ppl doing it think they're hilarious, but they're just telling the same tired joke over and over and over again.
Put it this way... those kind of jokes are so old they don't fall off of the dinosaur they rode in on, they fall off the trilobite they rode in on.
3- The person who offers earnest but obviously bad, game-breaking balance ideas, such as, well... name one. Bad, not well-thought out balance suggestions are everywhere. 4- The guy who might actually have good balance ideas but thinks his ideas are the ONLY good ones, and argues in an angry, non-constructive way with everyone else until they (he hopes) roll over and accept him as the second coming of Rob Pardo or whoever. So, you can get why some ppl hate balance discussions so much. But, they are still interesting, and some ppl do have good ideas... that will likely never be implemented.
Name one good idea from this thread, concerning balance.
I'm sure if I did, you would pooh-pooh it/pick it apart... that does seem to be the vibe you're giving off. And yes, I would agree that many balance suggestions in the thread have been bad. But to just pick apart ANY suggestion made, well, that is very easy to do, anyone can do it. SC is a game of trade-offs and interconnected effects, so almost ANY balance suggestion, no matter how logical, can be argued as being bad because of something it affects. Unless it's a change so small as to not make a difference in the first place.
Rather than going down that very obvious path, let's instead ask YOU, Nina, if there are any balance changes you can think of that would be beneficial.
I'm guessing the answer will probably be "no"... even though in other threads, I do remember you saying "nerf tanks." 
But you might've been joking, I don't know.
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On January 27 2017 06:52 [[Starlight]] wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2017 06:12 onlystar wrote:
[ignorant foreign novice player] has some thoughts about balance on a novice level and comes up with a solution but is not aware what the perspective is on balance in the korean scene and does not stop to think why progamers have no issues concerning balance at all nor did the game for the last 15years..
instead continues making posts about ''balance changes in broodwar''
I think Stork said on his stream sometime that ZvP is broken as heck. I also can understand that a lot of other Korean pros wouldn't want to re-learn the game, in effect, if there were significant balance changes. Plus, if it were the same designers who did balancing in SC2 trying to make BW changes, well, the history there probably wouldn't inspire much confidence among the pros, either.
haha stork who loses to every zerg pro on fish server?
who has been so distant from broodwar the past years its shown in his pvz gameplay
who cant get above D rank in zvp atm?
that stork you are refering to??
[/QUOTE]I also can understand that a lot of other Korean pros wouldn't want to re-learn the game, in effect, if there were significant balance changes. [/QUOTE]<-- wtf is this random bullshit? this is not even a subject in bw no korean fish user or ex-pro ever thought they would do any balance changes in bw even if they did fish would not use the patch progamers would not play broodwar on an updated patch because the current patch is used since forever and is good the way it is. its only inside youre head.
back to reality if he did refer to something like that he is probably saying that with humor since he cant compete with zerg pros for the moment witch is so obvious if you watch him play vs jaedong/effort/zero etc
you are probably thinking about the time that stork switched to zerg on stream for trolling saying he would show how imbalanced zerg is ! than got crushed by protosses and took it all back haha ;D
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On January 27 2017 07:16 onlystar wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2017 06:52 [[Starlight]] wrote:On January 27 2017 06:12 onlystar wrote:
[ignorant foreign novice player] has some thoughts about balance on a novice level and comes up with a solution but is not aware what the perspective is on balance in the korean scene and does not stop to think why progamers have no issues concerning balance at all nor did the game for the last 15years..
instead continues making posts about ''balance changes in broodwar''
I think Stork said on his stream sometime that ZvP is broken as heck. I also can understand that a lot of other Korean pros wouldn't want to re-learn the game, in effect, if there were significant balance changes. Plus, if it were the same designers who did balancing in SC2 trying to make BW changes, well, the history there probably wouldn't inspire much confidence among the pros, either. haha stork who loses to every zerg pro on fish server? who has been so distant from broodwar the past years its shown in his pvz gameplay who cant get above D rank in zvp atm? that stork you are refering to?? back to reality if he did refer to something like that he is probably saying that with humor since he cant compete with zerg pros for the moment witch is so obvious if you watch him play vs jaedong/effort/zero etc he did even swich to zerg on stream for trolling saying he would show how imbalanced zerg is ! than got crushed by protosses and took it all back haha ;D
Regardless, he is one of the two best Protoss players to ever play the game. So, it is likely that he might just know what he's talking about.
And I'm sure if we bothered to hunt around, we could find instances of other Korean pros mentioning balance here and there over the years. But I get why they wouldn't want to rock the boat on a game they already know, and how Bliz is just not inspiring confidence in how they've been balancing in general in recent years (*cough* SC2 *cough cough*).
What it really comes down to? Money. It would take considerable QA team hours to do a credible balance patch, which would cost considerable $$$... and Bliz probably figures it's not worth it, if it's just going to be a patch, i.e. not really monetizable.
You'd have to have a re-issue of the game with 'lots of COOL NEW STUFF' in order for ppl to be willing to fork out more $$$ for it, and thus make it worth Bliz's while to put some man-hours into making balance improvements. Assuming the designers put on the task are even capable of doing so.
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On January 27 2017 07:30 [[Starlight]] wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2017 07:16 onlystar wrote:On January 27 2017 06:52 [[Starlight]] wrote:On January 27 2017 06:12 onlystar wrote:
[ignorant foreign novice player] has some thoughts about balance on a novice level and comes up with a solution but is not aware what the perspective is on balance in the korean scene and does not stop to think why progamers have no issues concerning balance at all nor did the game for the last 15years..
instead continues making posts about ''balance changes in broodwar''
I think Stork said on his stream sometime that ZvP is broken as heck. I also can understand that a lot of other Korean pros wouldn't want to re-learn the game, in effect, if there were significant balance changes. Plus, if it were the same designers who did balancing in SC2 trying to make BW changes, well, the history there probably wouldn't inspire much confidence among the pros, either. haha stork who loses to every zerg pro on fish server? who has been so distant from broodwar the past years its shown in his pvz gameplay who cant get above D rank in zvp atm? that stork you are refering to?? back to reality if he did refer to something like that he is probably saying that with humor since he cant compete with zerg pros for the moment witch is so obvious if you watch him play vs jaedong/effort/zero etc he did even swich to zerg on stream for trolling saying he would show how imbalanced zerg is ! than got crushed by protosses and took it all back haha ;D Regardless, he is one of the two best Protoss players to ever play the game. So it is likely that he might know what he's talking about. And I'm sure if we bothered to hunt about, we could find instances of other Korean pros mentioning balance here and there over the years. But I get why they wouldn't want to rock the boat on a game they already know, and how Bliz is just not inspiring confidence in how they've been balancing in general in recent years. What it really comes down to? Money. It would take considerable QA team hours to do a credible balance patch, which would cost considerable $$$... and Bliz probably figures it's not worth it, if it's just going to be a patch, i.e. not really monetizable. You'd have to have a re-issue of the game with 'lots of COOL NEW STUFF' in order for ppl to be willing to fork out more $$$ for it, and thus make it worth Bliz's while to put some man-hours into making balance improvements. Assuming the designers put on the task are even capable of doing so.
you didn understand he was joking about pvz? or you just wanna ignore that part
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On January 27 2017 07:31 onlystar wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2017 07:30 [[Starlight]] wrote:On January 27 2017 07:16 onlystar wrote:On January 27 2017 06:52 [[Starlight]] wrote:On January 27 2017 06:12 onlystar wrote:
[ignorant foreign novice player] has some thoughts about balance on a novice level and comes up with a solution but is not aware what the perspective is on balance in the korean scene and does not stop to think why progamers have no issues concerning balance at all nor did the game for the last 15years..
instead continues making posts about ''balance changes in broodwar''
I think Stork said on his stream sometime that ZvP is broken as heck. I also can understand that a lot of other Korean pros wouldn't want to re-learn the game, in effect, if there were significant balance changes. Plus, if it were the same designers who did balancing in SC2 trying to make BW changes, well, the history there probably wouldn't inspire much confidence among the pros, either. haha stork who loses to every zerg pro on fish server? who has been so distant from broodwar the past years its shown in his pvz gameplay who cant get above D rank in zvp atm? that stork you are refering to?? back to reality if he did refer to something like that he is probably saying that with humor since he cant compete with zerg pros for the moment witch is so obvious if you watch him play vs jaedong/effort/zero etc he did even swich to zerg on stream for trolling saying he would show how imbalanced zerg is ! than got crushed by protosses and took it all back haha ;D Regardless, he is one of the two best Protoss players to ever play the game. So it is likely that he might know what he's talking about. And I'm sure if we bothered to hunt about, we could find instances of other Korean pros mentioning balance here and there over the years. But I get why they wouldn't want to rock the boat on a game they already know, and how Bliz is just not inspiring confidence in how they've been balancing in general in recent years. What it really comes down to? Money. It would take considerable QA team hours to do a credible balance patch, which would cost considerable $$$... and Bliz probably figures it's not worth it, if it's just going to be a patch, i.e. not really monetizable. You'd have to have a re-issue of the game with 'lots of COOL NEW STUFF' in order for ppl to be willing to fork out more $$$ for it, and thus make it worth Bliz's while to put some man-hours into making balance improvements. Assuming the designers put on the task are even capable of doing so. you didn understand he was joking about pvz? or you just wanna ignore that part
So, you're psychic now and can read Stork's thoughts? Cool. That must be a useful talent.
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On January 27 2017 07:36 onlystar wrote:
this happend on stream..
Still doesn't make you psychic.
In any case, you got nothing to worry about, bro... re-read what I said about QA costs and how it's tough to monetize a patch. It would shock the heck out of me if there were any balance changes in the patch.
That said, it's still fun to talk about balance, so stop getting all bent out of shape. If you hate balance discussions, absolutely no one is forcing you to read 'em.
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On January 27 2017 06:52 [[Starlight]] wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2017 06:12 onlystar wrote:
[ignorant foreign novice player] has some thoughts about balance on a novice level and comes up with a solution but is not aware what the perspective is on balance in the korean scene and does not stop to think why progamers have no issues concerning balance at all nor did the game for the last 15years..
instead continues making posts about ''balance changes in broodwar''
I also can understand that a lot of other Korean pros wouldn't want to re-learn the game, in effect, if there were significant balance changes. Plus, if it were the same designers who did balancing in SC2 trying to make BW changes, well, the history there probably wouldn't inspire much confidence among the pros, either.
I lot of problems with SC2 were design-based rather than balance based. That's a part of the reasons their changes were so drastic, because they wanted to change the way the game was played so often.
In comparison, Brood War doesn't have much of a design problem. It's just minor balance issues. That's why my suggestions are very minor. We don't need an overhaul on the design it's just small tweaking of balancing.
I still haven't heard a half-decent reason why these types of small tweaks are a bad idea.
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On January 27 2017 07:47 neobowman wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2017 06:52 [[Starlight]] wrote:On January 27 2017 06:12 onlystar wrote:
[ignorant foreign novice player] has some thoughts about balance on a novice level and comes up with a solution but is not aware what the perspective is on balance in the korean scene and does not stop to think why progamers have no issues concerning balance at all nor did the game for the last 15years..
instead continues making posts about ''balance changes in broodwar''
I also can understand that a lot of other Korean pros wouldn't want to re-learn the game, in effect, if there were significant balance changes. Plus, if it were the same designers who did balancing in SC2 trying to make BW changes, well, the history there probably wouldn't inspire much confidence among the pros, either. I lot of problems with SC2 were design-based rather than balance based. That's a part of the reasons their changes were so drastic, because they wanted to change the way the game was played so often. In comparison, Brood War doesn't have much of a design problem. It's just minor balance issues. That's why my suggestions are very minor. We don't need an overhaul on the design it's just small tweaking of balancing. I still haven't heard a half-decent reason why these types of small tweaks are a bad idea.
Can you list all your tweaks again in one post? I'll take a crack at 'em.
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On January 27 2017 07:49 [[Starlight]] wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2017 07:47 neobowman wrote:On January 27 2017 06:52 [[Starlight]] wrote:On January 27 2017 06:12 onlystar wrote:
[ignorant foreign novice player] has some thoughts about balance on a novice level and comes up with a solution but is not aware what the perspective is on balance in the korean scene and does not stop to think why progamers have no issues concerning balance at all nor did the game for the last 15years..
instead continues making posts about ''balance changes in broodwar''
I also can understand that a lot of other Korean pros wouldn't want to re-learn the game, in effect, if there were significant balance changes. Plus, if it were the same designers who did balancing in SC2 trying to make BW changes, well, the history there probably wouldn't inspire much confidence among the pros, either. I lot of problems with SC2 were design-based rather than balance based. That's a part of the reasons their changes were so drastic, because they wanted to change the way the game was played so often. In comparison, Brood War doesn't have much of a design problem. It's just minor balance issues. That's why my suggestions are very minor. We don't need an overhaul on the design it's just small tweaking of balancing. I still haven't heard a half-decent reason why these types of small tweaks are a bad idea. Can you list all your tweaks again in one post? I'll take a crack at 'em.
Sure, they're here.
For ZvP we could try
Corsair +10 hp. 2 extra hits from mutas when alone and about 1 extra in groups. Small subtle change slightly improves Protoss against Z, not against T.
Archon +50 shields. Won't change the way they're used, it'll just make them stronger.
Maelstrom takes 20 seconds to research down from 63.
Dark Templar Shields up to 60 from 40.
Corsair -20 shields +1 armor. So new total would be 100 health 40 shields, 2 armor to begin with. Extra boost against mutas.
How bout TvZ?
Queens: Spawn broodling cost down to 125 energy. Queen energy upgrade down to 100/100 from 150/150 and time down to 50 from 105. Small queen boost against Mech.
Nydus canal build time down to 20 seconds from 40. Health up from 250 to 350.
+1 Infantry up to 125/125.
Medic build time up to 22 from 19.
Consume research time down to 70 from 100.
The general idea though is that one of these ideas we can come up with is bound to work. It's just a matter of fine tuning the actual numbers so that it works out to be balanced. Personally I think the Queen change and the consume research time are the most promising for TvZ if you can figure out the right numbers for them. For Toss, I like the archon change. Modifying Corsairs somehow seems good too but I don't think I got a particularly good idea for it.
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wait im baffled ''buff corsairs'' so protoss can handle mutas bette L.O.L i swear to god i hear people laughing i know i am wtf dude corsairs are fuking amazing vs muta lol W T F
edit: okey i have to stop reading those suggestions youre trolling you got us well done
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On January 27 2017 07:51 neobowman wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2017 07:49 [[Starlight]] wrote:On January 27 2017 07:47 neobowman wrote:On January 27 2017 06:52 [[Starlight]] wrote:On January 27 2017 06:12 onlystar wrote:
[ignorant foreign novice player] has some thoughts about balance on a novice level and comes up with a solution but is not aware what the perspective is on balance in the korean scene and does not stop to think why progamers have no issues concerning balance at all nor did the game for the last 15years..
instead continues making posts about ''balance changes in broodwar''
I also can understand that a lot of other Korean pros wouldn't want to re-learn the game, in effect, if there were significant balance changes. Plus, if it were the same designers who did balancing in SC2 trying to make BW changes, well, the history there probably wouldn't inspire much confidence among the pros, either. I lot of problems with SC2 were design-based rather than balance based. That's a part of the reasons their changes were so drastic, because they wanted to change the way the game was played so often. In comparison, Brood War doesn't have much of a design problem. It's just minor balance issues. That's why my suggestions are very minor. We don't need an overhaul on the design it's just small tweaking of balancing. I still haven't heard a half-decent reason why these types of small tweaks are a bad idea. Can you list all your tweaks again in one post? I'll take a crack at 'em. Sure, they're here.
Okay, I'll try to give some feedback on your changes below, just off the top of my head...
NeoBowman: Lemme throw some stuff out there and see if any stick
For ZvP we could try... Corsair +10 hp. 2 extra hits from mutas when alone and about 1 extra in groups. Small subtle change slightly improves Protoss against Z, not against T.
By Bliz's own Air Balance Model (look it up on their site), Corsairs are supposed to counter mutas, i.e. Air Superiority units (sairs, valks) are supposed to counter Tactical Air units (mutas, wraiths, scouts). And sairs already clobber mutas pretty darn well. Not sure why they'd need to be toughened up vs mutas, if they already perform great against 'em and are supposed to counter 'em in the first place.
And/or Archon +50 shields. Won't change the way they're used, it'll just make them stronger.
Archons are pretty set, health-wise. I think the bigger problem may be that players with good muta micro can snipe 'em. You could increase archon range to 3, but then muta stacks would always be hit when attacking an archon, their micro wouldn't matter anymore, and they'd die absolutely horribly to archon splash too.
You could make archons as fast as mutas, but that might cause significant problems elsewhere. Probably the best thing you could do would be to increase archon acceleration further, i.e. 'instant on' full movement speed. Assuming that they don't have very close to that already (archon acceleration was already increased in a previous Blizzard patch), it'd make the muta micro archon-sniping harder, without making it impossible, as mutas would still outrange archons.
How bout TvZ? Queens: Spawn broodling cost down to 125 energy.
Ugh. Potentially two expensive units killed by a queen on one run, assuming full mana and the energy upgrade. Queens do only cost 100/100, remember. I mean, yeah, Sci Vessel irradiate runs are just as unfair (or even more so, with full mana + the energy upgrade), but Sci Vessels do cost a LOT more than Queens, and are slower/generally easier to damage or snipe.
Queen energy upgrade down to 100/100 from 150/150 and time down to 50 from 105. Small queen boost against Mech.
That might work.
And/or Nydus canal build time down to 20 seconds from 40. Health up from 250 to 350.
That might be okay. Does help them vs P as well, of course.
Some more I've thought of. +1 Infantry up to 125/125.
Why do we need this? Does it really do much of anything?
Medic build time up to 22 from 19.
Don't think it's the Medic build time that's the problem in TvZ, but rather, the healing rate. It's a bit too high, makes medic-marine vs Z feel pretty rigged at times.
Consume research time down to 70 from 100.
Defilers aren't underpowered/don't really need to be active earlier. They're a terrifically powerful unit, especially vs T.
Maelstrom takes 20 seconds to research down from 63.
Doesn't really help, because the DA has to be built (DT build time + merge) and then still sit there and accumulate mana to 100 in order to cast. Maelstrom research time is not usually the roadblock to getting maelstrom earlier (unlike say Psi Storm, which has a long research time and is only 75 mana).
Dark Templar Shields up to 60 from 40.
Don't know that it helps much... detected DTs are usually dead DTs no matter what. If you wanted DTs to be more of a thorn in Z's side (and they kinda already are), you'd do something to Zerg detection.
Corsair -20 shields +1 armor. So new total would be 100 health 40 shields, 2 armor to begin with. Extra boost against mutas.
Again, corsairs already clobber mutas, and are supposed to. The splash damage just does horrific things to muta stacks.
There's so many very minor changes that could be made that would improve each matchup just a little but more while ideally keeping the core gameplay the same. Of course, some of them could completely change the meta for unforseeon reasons or something but there are clearly going to be solutions that work here. It's just a matter of finding out exactly what.
Yup. The devil's in the details, and balance is hard. In fact, it's bloody hard. Not sure how game designers don't go mad... well, unless they're working on a crappy game where no one really cares about balance.
But it's cool to talk about, even if the mere fact of doing so seems to fill some posters with rage, for whatever strange reason. They don't understand that it's interesting to play Jr. Game Designer once in awhile, it's good mental exercise.
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On January 27 2017 08:21 [[Starlight]] wrote:
NeoBowman: Lemme throw some stuff out there and see if any stick
For ZvP we could try... Corsair +10 hp. 2 extra hits from mutas when alone and about 1 extra in groups. Small subtle change slightly improves Protoss against Z, not against T.
By Bliz's own Air Balance Model (look it up on their site), Corsairs are supposed to counter mutas, i.e. Air Superiority units (sairs, valks) are supposed to counter Tactical Air units (mutas, wraiths, scouts). And sairs already clobber mutas pretty darn well. Not sure why they'd need to be toughened up vs mutas, if they already perform great against 'em and are supposed to counter 'em in the first place.
Modern ZvP seems to favour 6 hatch hydra so this isn't as relevant. In small numbers though, Mutas crush Corsairs just because Zerg production allows them to spawn a dozen at once instead of one at a time through a stargate. Not to mention corsairs will often be running away from scourge/muta in which case minimizing damage from chasing mutas is a small boon. This isn't my favourite change though.
And/or Archon +50 shields. Won't change the way they're used, it'll just make them stronger.
Archons are pretty set, health-wise. I think the bigger problem may be that players with good muta micro can snipe 'em. You could increase archon range to 3, but then muta stacks would always be hit when attacking an archon, their micro wouldn't matter anymore, and they'd die absolutely horribly to archon splash too.
You could make archons as fast as mutas, but that might cause significant problems elsewhere. Probably the best thing you could do would be to increase archon acceleration further, i.e. 'instant on' full movement speed. Assuming that they don't have very close to that already (archon acceleration was already increased in a previous Blizzard patch), it'd make the muta micro archon-sniping harder, without making it impossible, as mutas would still outrange archons.
Not sure what you mean here. There's no one who snipes archons with Mutas. Increasing the health just increases their overall strength in the army, I'm not sure what you mean about the health being "set".
How bout TvZ? Queens: Spawn broodling cost down to 125 energy.
Ugh. Potentially two expensive units killed by a queen on one run, assuming full mana and the energy upgrade. Queens do only cost 100/100, remember. I mean, yeah, Sci Vessel irradiate runs are just as unfair (or even more so, with full mana + the energy upgrade), but Sci Vessels do cost a LOT more than Queens, and are slower/generally easier to damage or snipe.
Queen energy upgrade down to 100/100 from 150/150 and time down to 50 from 105. Small queen boost against Mech.
That might work.
The thing with Vessals is that Irradiate is 75 mana and there are only ever like 4 max defilers on the map. If you kill all the defilers than Zerg army is basically at half-strength. And before the mech switch, science vessels are basically your only gas sink outside your tanks.
You kill 4 tanks late-game, that's not much. Not to mention 125 takes a much longer time to charge than 75. Do some math and you'll find it takes a long long time to actually charge back up to 125. I don't think this is a bad change, but numbers may need tweaking.
Some more I've thought of. +1 Infantry up to 125/125.
Why do we need this? Does it really do much of anything?
Not much tbh. I was thinking of how to tone down the +1 5 rax play that goes on lately but just +25/25 won't do anything. At the same time I didn't want to push it up too much. Probably not the best one.
Medic build time up to 22 from 19.
Don't think it's the Medic build time that's the problem in TvZ, but rather, the healing rate. It's a bit too high, makes medic-marine vs Z feel pretty rigged at times.
It's not the problem but it would definitely give Terran a very slight nerf. Again, I think that's much more preferable than big changes.
Consume research time down to 70 from 100.
Defilers aren't underpowered/don't really need to be active earlier. They're a terrifically powerful unit, especially vs T.
Defilers are super strong yes. But they're also the only thing between Zerg and dying. Everything in the Zerg's gameplan boils down to getting defilers. With current 5rax play, it's very, very difficult. Cutting down the timing by even just a bit would be a big help while at the same time, not actually making them stronger. Just giving Zerg some more breathing room. This is actually one of the changes I like most.
Maelstrom takes 20 seconds to research down from 63.
Doesn't really help, because the DA still has to sit there and accumulate mana to 100 in order to cast. Maelstrom research time is not usually the roadblock to getting maelstrom earlier.
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I was thinking about just eliminating Maelstrom research completely but then I was thinking Protoss could just get a 250/200 dark archon every game to crush any muta play at all with a non-interactive spell. I made it just 20 seconds so it wouldn't get that far but I'm not sure about this change at all.
Dark Templar Shields up to 60 from 40.
Don't know that it helps much... detected DTs are usually dead DTs no matter what. If you wanted DTs to be more of a thorn in Z's side (and they kinda already are), you'd do something to Zerg detection.
This was more in terms of late-game harass where you send a couple DTs into an unattended base with like 3 hydras or something. A small boost again. Nothing game-changing, just a minor buff.
Corsair -20 shields +1 armor. So new total would be 100 health 40 shields, 2 armor to begin with. Extra boost against mutas.
Again, corsairs already clobber mutas, and are supposed to. The splash damage just does horrific things to muta stacks.
No disagreement but corsairs are one of the few units we can modify on the Protoss side that only affects ZvP. I don't want to increase damage because +1 on the fire rate of the corsair would change it a ton. Don't want to change fire rate because that would be modifying the mechanics of the game which feels wrong. Then we're left with health and armor.
I do think there's a certain change that can be made to corsairs that would be a good adjustment. It might be good to just add health to help tank against hydras though.
I don't think Blizz will make balance changes but I also don't understand why everyone is so down on literally any change when there's stuff like these small tiny adjustments that would help the matchups by just a bit (which is all that's needed). Maybe they're worried Blizz will go overboard with the changes (which is a fair concern to have) but if the changes are small ones like these then I don't think it would be a problem.
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I don't think Blizz will make balance changes but I also don't understand why everyone is so down on literally any change when there's stuff like these small tiny adjustments that would help the matchups by just a bit (which is all that's needed). Maybe they're worried Blizz will go overboard with the changes (which is a fair concern to have) but if the changes are small ones like these then I don't think it would be a problem.
We don't want them ruining a masterpiece. They already did a shit job with sc2, if you want balance changes go play that game instead. Brood wars is perfect as is.
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Hyrule18938 Posts
except it's Brood War. Singular. One war.
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On January 27 2017 08:21 [[Starlight]] wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2017 07:51 neobowman wrote:On January 27 2017 07:49 [[Starlight]] wrote:On January 27 2017 07:47 neobowman wrote:On January 27 2017 06:52 [[Starlight]] wrote:On January 27 2017 06:12 onlystar wrote:
[ignorant foreign novice player] has some thoughts about balance on a novice level and comes up with a solution but is not aware what the perspective is on balance in the korean scene and does not stop to think why progamers have no issues concerning balance at all nor did the game for the last 15years..
instead continues making posts about ''balance changes in broodwar''
I also can understand that a lot of other Korean pros wouldn't want to re-learn the game, in effect, if there were significant balance changes. Plus, if it were the same designers who did balancing in SC2 trying to make BW changes, well, the history there probably wouldn't inspire much confidence among the pros, either. I lot of problems with SC2 were design-based rather than balance based. That's a part of the reasons their changes were so drastic, because they wanted to change the way the game was played so often. In comparison, Brood War doesn't have much of a design problem. It's just minor balance issues. That's why my suggestions are very minor. We don't need an overhaul on the design it's just small tweaking of balancing. I still haven't heard a half-decent reason why these types of small tweaks are a bad idea. Can you list all your tweaks again in one post? I'll take a crack at 'em. Sure, they're here. Okay, I'll try to give some feedback on your changes below, just off the top of my head... NeoBowman: Lemme throw some stuff out there and see if any stick
For ZvP we could try... Corsair +10 hp. 2 extra hits from mutas when alone and about 1 extra in groups. Small subtle change slightly improves Protoss against Z, not against T.By Bliz's own Air Balance Model (look it up on their site), Corsairs are supposed to counter mutas, i.e. Air Superiority units (sairs, valks) are supposed to counter Tactical Air units (mutas, wraiths, scouts). And sairs already clobber mutas pretty darn well. Not sure why they'd need to be toughened up vs mutas, if they already perform great against 'em and are supposed to counter 'em in the first place. And/or Archon +50 shields. Won't change the way they're used, it'll just make them stronger.Archons are pretty set, health-wise. I think the bigger problem may be that players with good muta micro can snipe 'em. You could increase archon range to 3, but then muta stacks would always be hit when attacking an archon, their micro wouldn't matter anymore, and they'd die absolutely horribly to archon splash too. You could make archons as fast as mutas, but that might cause significant problems elsewhere. Probably the best thing you could do would be to increase archon acceleration further, i.e. 'instant on' full movement speed. Assuming that they don't have very close to that already (archon acceleration was already increased in a previous Blizzard patch), it'd make the muta micro archon-sniping harder, without making it impossible, as mutas would still outrange archons. How bout TvZ? Queens: Spawn broodling cost down to 125 energy. Ugh. Potentially two expensive units killed by a queen on one run, assuming full mana and the energy upgrade. Queens do only cost 100/100, remember. I mean, yeah, Sci Vessel irradiate runs are just as unfair (or even more so, with full mana + the energy upgrade), but Sci Vessels do cost a LOT more than Queens, and are slower/generally easier to damage or snipe. Queen energy upgrade down to 100/100 from 150/150 and time down to 50 from 105. Small queen boost against Mech.That might work. And/or Nydus canal build time down to 20 seconds from 40. Health up from 250 to 350. That might be okay. Does help them vs P as well, of course. Some more I've thought of. +1 Infantry up to 125/125.Why do we need this? Does it really do much of anything? Medic build time up to 22 from 19.Don't think it's the Medic build time that's the problem in TvZ, but rather, the healing rate. It's a bit too high, makes medic-marine vs Z feel pretty rigged at times. Consume research time down to 70 from 100.Defilers aren't underpowered/don't really need to be active earlier. They're a terrifically powerful unit, especially vs T. Maelstrom takes 20 seconds to research down from 63.Doesn't really help, because the DA has to be built (DT build time + merge) and then still sit there and accumulate mana to 100 in order to cast. Maelstrom research time is not usually the roadblock to getting maelstrom earlier (unlike say Psi Storm, which has a long research time and is only 75 mana). Dark Templar Shields up to 60 from 40.Don't know that it helps much... detected DTs are usually dead DTs no matter what. If you wanted DTs to be more of a thorn in Z's side (and they kinda already are), you'd do something to Zerg detection. Corsair -20 shields +1 armor. So new total would be 100 health 40 shields, 2 armor to begin with. Extra boost against mutas.Again, corsairs already clobber mutas, and are supposed to. The splash damage just does horrific things to muta stacks. There's so many very minor changes that could be made that would improve each matchup just a little but more while ideally keeping the core gameplay the same. Of course, some of them could completely change the meta for unforseeon reasons or something but there are clearly going to be solutions that work here. It's just a matter of finding out exactly what.Yup. The devil's in the details, and balance is hard. In fact, it's bloody hard. Not sure how game designers don't go mad... well, unless they're working on a crappy game where no one really cares about balance. But it's cool to talk about, even if the mere fact of doing so seems to fill some posters with rage, for whatever strange reason. They don't understand that it's interesting to play Jr. Game Designer once in awhile, it's good mental exercise.
I'd not even bother to spend time to write such a long comment to explain it to him. Anyone who introduces so many changes in one go is a fool. End of story. When you spot a problem and you're not sure if there is a single fix, you DO NOT introduce many changes in go. Instead, you introduce one change, you check what the effect is, then you revert change and go for another change, etc. Only if you prove that 1 change is not enough, then you're allowed to go for 2 and so on.
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TLADT24920 Posts
On January 27 2017 09:50 Shield wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2017 08:21 [[Starlight]] wrote:On January 27 2017 07:51 neobowman wrote:On January 27 2017 07:49 [[Starlight]] wrote:On January 27 2017 07:47 neobowman wrote:On January 27 2017 06:52 [[Starlight]] wrote:On January 27 2017 06:12 onlystar wrote:
[ignorant foreign novice player] has some thoughts about balance on a novice level and comes up with a solution but is not aware what the perspective is on balance in the korean scene and does not stop to think why progamers have no issues concerning balance at all nor did the game for the last 15years..
instead continues making posts about ''balance changes in broodwar''
I also can understand that a lot of other Korean pros wouldn't want to re-learn the game, in effect, if there were significant balance changes. Plus, if it were the same designers who did balancing in SC2 trying to make BW changes, well, the history there probably wouldn't inspire much confidence among the pros, either. I lot of problems with SC2 were design-based rather than balance based. That's a part of the reasons their changes were so drastic, because they wanted to change the way the game was played so often. In comparison, Brood War doesn't have much of a design problem. It's just minor balance issues. That's why my suggestions are very minor. We don't need an overhaul on the design it's just small tweaking of balancing. I still haven't heard a half-decent reason why these types of small tweaks are a bad idea. Can you list all your tweaks again in one post? I'll take a crack at 'em. Sure, they're here. Okay, I'll try to give some feedback on your changes below, just off the top of my head... NeoBowman: Lemme throw some stuff out there and see if any stick
For ZvP we could try... Corsair +10 hp. 2 extra hits from mutas when alone and about 1 extra in groups. Small subtle change slightly improves Protoss against Z, not against T.By Bliz's own Air Balance Model (look it up on their site), Corsairs are supposed to counter mutas, i.e. Air Superiority units (sairs, valks) are supposed to counter Tactical Air units (mutas, wraiths, scouts). And sairs already clobber mutas pretty darn well. Not sure why they'd need to be toughened up vs mutas, if they already perform great against 'em and are supposed to counter 'em in the first place. And/or Archon +50 shields. Won't change the way they're used, it'll just make them stronger.Archons are pretty set, health-wise. I think the bigger problem may be that players with good muta micro can snipe 'em. You could increase archon range to 3, but then muta stacks would always be hit when attacking an archon, their micro wouldn't matter anymore, and they'd die absolutely horribly to archon splash too. You could make archons as fast as mutas, but that might cause significant problems elsewhere. Probably the best thing you could do would be to increase archon acceleration further, i.e. 'instant on' full movement speed. Assuming that they don't have very close to that already (archon acceleration was already increased in a previous Blizzard patch), it'd make the muta micro archon-sniping harder, without making it impossible, as mutas would still outrange archons. How bout TvZ? Queens: Spawn broodling cost down to 125 energy. Ugh. Potentially two expensive units killed by a queen on one run, assuming full mana and the energy upgrade. Queens do only cost 100/100, remember. I mean, yeah, Sci Vessel irradiate runs are just as unfair (or even more so, with full mana + the energy upgrade), but Sci Vessels do cost a LOT more than Queens, and are slower/generally easier to damage or snipe. Queen energy upgrade down to 100/100 from 150/150 and time down to 50 from 105. Small queen boost against Mech.That might work. And/or Nydus canal build time down to 20 seconds from 40. Health up from 250 to 350. That might be okay. Does help them vs P as well, of course. Some more I've thought of. +1 Infantry up to 125/125.Why do we need this? Does it really do much of anything? Medic build time up to 22 from 19.Don't think it's the Medic build time that's the problem in TvZ, but rather, the healing rate. It's a bit too high, makes medic-marine vs Z feel pretty rigged at times. Consume research time down to 70 from 100.Defilers aren't underpowered/don't really need to be active earlier. They're a terrifically powerful unit, especially vs T. Maelstrom takes 20 seconds to research down from 63.Doesn't really help, because the DA has to be built (DT build time + merge) and then still sit there and accumulate mana to 100 in order to cast. Maelstrom research time is not usually the roadblock to getting maelstrom earlier (unlike say Psi Storm, which has a long research time and is only 75 mana). Dark Templar Shields up to 60 from 40.Don't know that it helps much... detected DTs are usually dead DTs no matter what. If you wanted DTs to be more of a thorn in Z's side (and they kinda already are), you'd do something to Zerg detection. Corsair -20 shields +1 armor. So new total would be 100 health 40 shields, 2 armor to begin with. Extra boost against mutas.Again, corsairs already clobber mutas, and are supposed to. The splash damage just does horrific things to muta stacks. There's so many very minor changes that could be made that would improve each matchup just a little but more while ideally keeping the core gameplay the same. Of course, some of them could completely change the meta for unforseeon reasons or something but there are clearly going to be solutions that work here. It's just a matter of finding out exactly what.Yup. The devil's in the details, and balance is hard. In fact, it's bloody hard. Not sure how game designers don't go mad... well, unless they're working on a crappy game where no one really cares about balance. But it's cool to talk about, even if the mere fact of doing so seems to fill some posters with rage, for whatever strange reason. They don't understand that it's interesting to play Jr. Game Designer once in awhile, it's good mental exercise. I'd not even bother to spend time to write such a long comment to explain it to him. Anyone who introduces so many changes in one go is a fool. End of story. When you spot a problem and you're not sure if there is a single fix, you DO NOT introduce many changes in go. Instead, you introduce one change, you check what the effect is, then you revert change and go for another change, etc. Only if you prove that 1 change is not enough, then you're allowed to go for 2 and so on.
While I don't disagree with the idea of one change at a time especially considering how fine BW's balance is, Blizzard introduced a ton of balances fixes all in one patch lol. Given, this was a long time ago 
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On January 27 2017 09:30 ReachTheSky wrote:. Show nested quote +
I don't think Blizz will make balance changes but I also don't understand why everyone is so down on literally any change when there's stuff like these small tiny adjustments that would help the matchups by just a bit (which is all that's needed). Maybe they're worried Blizz will go overboard with the changes (which is a fair concern to have) but if the changes are small ones like these then I don't think it would be a problem.
We don't want them ruining a masterpiece. They already did a shit job with sc2, if you want balance changes go play that game instead. Brood wars is perfect as is.
If Blizz made a couple of these changes outlined, would you be upset? That's the essence of this question.
On January 27 2017 09:50 Shield wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2017 08:21 [[Starlight]] wrote:On January 27 2017 07:51 neobowman wrote:On January 27 2017 07:49 [[Starlight]] wrote:On January 27 2017 07:47 neobowman wrote:On January 27 2017 06:52 [[Starlight]] wrote:On January 27 2017 06:12 onlystar wrote:
[ignorant foreign novice player] has some thoughts about balance on a novice level and comes up with a solution but is not aware what the perspective is on balance in the korean scene and does not stop to think why progamers have no issues concerning balance at all nor did the game for the last 15years..
instead continues making posts about ''balance changes in broodwar''
I also can understand that a lot of other Korean pros wouldn't want to re-learn the game, in effect, if there were significant balance changes. Plus, if it were the same designers who did balancing in SC2 trying to make BW changes, well, the history there probably wouldn't inspire much confidence among the pros, either. I lot of problems with SC2 were design-based rather than balance based. That's a part of the reasons their changes were so drastic, because they wanted to change the way the game was played so often. In comparison, Brood War doesn't have much of a design problem. It's just minor balance issues. That's why my suggestions are very minor. We don't need an overhaul on the design it's just small tweaking of balancing. I still haven't heard a half-decent reason why these types of small tweaks are a bad idea. Can you list all your tweaks again in one post? I'll take a crack at 'em. Sure, they're here. Okay, I'll try to give some feedback on your changes below, just off the top of my head... NeoBowman: Lemme throw some stuff out there and see if any stick
For ZvP we could try... Corsair +10 hp. 2 extra hits from mutas when alone and about 1 extra in groups. Small subtle change slightly improves Protoss against Z, not against T.By Bliz's own Air Balance Model (look it up on their site), Corsairs are supposed to counter mutas, i.e. Air Superiority units (sairs, valks) are supposed to counter Tactical Air units (mutas, wraiths, scouts). And sairs already clobber mutas pretty darn well. Not sure why they'd need to be toughened up vs mutas, if they already perform great against 'em and are supposed to counter 'em in the first place. And/or Archon +50 shields. Won't change the way they're used, it'll just make them stronger.Archons are pretty set, health-wise. I think the bigger problem may be that players with good muta micro can snipe 'em. You could increase archon range to 3, but then muta stacks would always be hit when attacking an archon, their micro wouldn't matter anymore, and they'd die absolutely horribly to archon splash too. You could make archons as fast as mutas, but that might cause significant problems elsewhere. Probably the best thing you could do would be to increase archon acceleration further, i.e. 'instant on' full movement speed. Assuming that they don't have very close to that already (archon acceleration was already increased in a previous Blizzard patch), it'd make the muta micro archon-sniping harder, without making it impossible, as mutas would still outrange archons. How bout TvZ? Queens: Spawn broodling cost down to 125 energy. Ugh. Potentially two expensive units killed by a queen on one run, assuming full mana and the energy upgrade. Queens do only cost 100/100, remember. I mean, yeah, Sci Vessel irradiate runs are just as unfair (or even more so, with full mana + the energy upgrade), but Sci Vessels do cost a LOT more than Queens, and are slower/generally easier to damage or snipe. Queen energy upgrade down to 100/100 from 150/150 and time down to 50 from 105. Small queen boost against Mech.That might work. And/or Nydus canal build time down to 20 seconds from 40. Health up from 250 to 350. That might be okay. Does help them vs P as well, of course. Some more I've thought of. +1 Infantry up to 125/125.Why do we need this? Does it really do much of anything? Medic build time up to 22 from 19.Don't think it's the Medic build time that's the problem in TvZ, but rather, the healing rate. It's a bit too high, makes medic-marine vs Z feel pretty rigged at times. Consume research time down to 70 from 100.Defilers aren't underpowered/don't really need to be active earlier. They're a terrifically powerful unit, especially vs T. Maelstrom takes 20 seconds to research down from 63.Doesn't really help, because the DA has to be built (DT build time + merge) and then still sit there and accumulate mana to 100 in order to cast. Maelstrom research time is not usually the roadblock to getting maelstrom earlier (unlike say Psi Storm, which has a long research time and is only 75 mana). Dark Templar Shields up to 60 from 40.Don't know that it helps much... detected DTs are usually dead DTs no matter what. If you wanted DTs to be more of a thorn in Z's side (and they kinda already are), you'd do something to Zerg detection. Corsair -20 shields +1 armor. So new total would be 100 health 40 shields, 2 armor to begin with. Extra boost against mutas.Again, corsairs already clobber mutas, and are supposed to. The splash damage just does horrific things to muta stacks. There's so many very minor changes that could be made that would improve each matchup just a little but more while ideally keeping the core gameplay the same. Of course, some of them could completely change the meta for unforseeon reasons or something but there are clearly going to be solutions that work here. It's just a matter of finding out exactly what.Yup. The devil's in the details, and balance is hard. In fact, it's bloody hard. Not sure how game designers don't go mad... well, unless they're working on a crappy game where no one really cares about balance. But it's cool to talk about, even if the mere fact of doing so seems to fill some posters with rage, for whatever strange reason. They don't understand that it's interesting to play Jr. Game Designer once in awhile, it's good mental exercise. I'd not even bother to spend time to write such a long comment to explain it to him. Anyone who introduces so many changes in one go is a fool. End of story. When you spot a problem and you're not sure if there is a single fix, you DO NOT introduce many changes in go. Instead, you introduce one change, you check what the effect is, then you revert change and go for another change, etc. Only if you prove that 1 change is not enough, then you're allowed to go for 2 and so on.
Hey mate. Let's pull you way back to 3 whole pages ago and show you what I'm talking about here.
On January 26 2017 14:20 neobowman wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2017 14:07 ninazerg wrote:
Name one good idea from this thread, concerning balance.
Lemme throw some stuff out there and see if any stick For ZvP we could tryCorsair +10 hp. 2 extra hits from mutas when alone and about 1 extra in groups. Small subtle change slightly improves Protoss against Z, not against T. And/or Archon +50 shields. Won't change the way they're used, it'll just make them stronger. How bout TvZ?Queens: Spawn broodling cost down to 125 energy. Queen energy upgrade down to 100/100 from 150/150 and time down to 50 from 105. Small queen boost against Mech. And/or Nydus canal build time down to 20 seconds from 40. Health up from 250 to 350. Thoughts on those? There's so many very minor changes that could be made that would improve each matchup just a little but more while ideally keeping the core gameplay the same. Of course, some of them could completely change the meta for unforseeon reasons or something but there are clearly going to be solutions that work here. It's just a matter of finding out exactly what.
I'm not suggesting we do all this. These are suggestions as to what any singular potential changes could look be since Nina was asking for some good balance suggestions. Pick a couple that seem interesting and work from there. Please look at the context of these posts before making snap judgments.
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