EPTAlso building terran structures can be delayed by attacking scv during construction. This is NOT a thing where Zerg is handicaped.
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hitthat
Poland2234 Posts
Also building terran structures can be delayed by attacking scv during construction. This is NOT a thing where Zerg is handicaped. | ||
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parkufarku
882 Posts
Anyway its silly to compare it directly | ||
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parkufarku
882 Posts
On January 26 2017 19:49 hitthat wrote: To build anything Terran multiple units need multiple specialized buildings - factories, barracks, starports and add-ons. Zerg needs only build a hatch that can produce 3 units at once for cost of 2 barracks plus a 1 specialized building (hatch->lair->hive balance shit a little). Also building terran structures can be delayed by attacking scv during construction. This is NOT a thing where Zerg is handicaped. I'd rather build a few more buildings than be forced to built on creep or not be able to lift. P buildings are more expensive and requires more tech tree buildings again, I don't know why we are comparing buildings. There are more pressing issues, especially ZvT bio power | ||
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Jae Zedong
407 Posts
On January 26 2017 19:47 Zera wrote:Zerg hatchery only costs 300 minerals plus 50 mineral drone = 350. Other two races - 400 minerals. Have you considered the fact that Hatcheries only give 1 control? For a Nexus you can deduct 100 minerals for the included pylon supply, so in fact Nexus and CC cost 300 minerals (CC even gives 1 extra control for some reason). Zerg evolution chamber costs only 75 minerals + 50m for drone, total - 125m. Terran e-bay - 125m. And Zerg loses mining time for the rest of the game! True cost of evo chamber is several hundred minerals. Not to mention e-bay unlocks missile turrets while evo chamber unlocks spore colony (aka useless versus terran). E-bays can even lift, bro. | ||
mustaju
Estonia4504 Posts
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hitthat
Poland2234 Posts
On January 26 2017 20:30 mustaju wrote: If a small upgrade would buff ZvT just a bit and make Hive ZvZ more prevalent, that would be a good change in my opinion. Possible changes include ensnare buff along with spore colony buffs. Wouldnt Spore Colony buff could potentially backfire against protoss? (however I have nothing against ruining the ZvZ mutalisk shitfest) | ||
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Jae Zedong
407 Posts
It's better to go to the root cause of why ensare might look like it should need a buff. Personally I think medics are the culprit. They're just too damn good for what they cost. I would like to see them get 40 hp. | ||
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mustaju
Estonia4504 Posts
On January 26 2017 20:32 hitthat wrote: Wouldnt Spore Colony buff could potentially backfire against protoss? (however I have nothing against ruining the ZvZ mutalisk shitfest) Depends? I mean, one could change the range/health/armor to make it harder for mutalisk harass to attack drone lines. That would mean a more difficult time for shuttles/corsairs/observers but not tragically so, I'd presume? @Jae Zedong - The virtue of buffing ensnare would be to make a solution for both ZvT as well as ZvZ, but the no micro argument is rather convincing, I have to say. | ||
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hitthat
Poland2234 Posts
On January 26 2017 21:00 mustaju wrote: Depends? I mean, one could change the range/health/armor to make it harder for mutalisk harass to attack drone lines. That would mean a more difficult time for shuttles/corsairs/observers but not tragically so, I'd presume? Range is not an option - even small change here can affect the balance dramaticaly. Cost and build time buffs are also not an option since these can screw the dark templars pretty hard. So we are left with health/armour? [btw dont treat this as i postulate any changes in balance, i just like theorycrafting fun] | ||
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mustaju
Estonia4504 Posts
On January 26 2017 21:07 hitthat wrote: Range is not an option - even small change here can affect the balance dramaticaly. Cost and build time buffs are also not an option since these can screw the dark templars pretty hard. So we are left with health/armour? [btw dont treat this as i postulate any changes in balance, i just like theorycrafting fun] Attack range is something that only comes up vs. wraiths and corsairs. I don't know if PvZ would become unbalanced because overlord sniping under spores would be slightly harder, but I think a range buff that would lead to such a positive impact in ZvZ that it would be worth it? You may disagree. | ||
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KameZerg
Sweden1745 Posts
On January 26 2017 01:59 Jae Zedong wrote: No need to resort to name calling when you can't even spell compatibility right. Ok thank you professor. | ||
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hitthat
Poland2234 Posts
On January 26 2017 21:45 mustaju wrote: Attack range is something that only comes up vs. wraiths and corsairs. Nope, a chance to give even 1 more hit against dropships, observers and shuttles is significant. | ||
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ProMeTheus112
France2027 Posts
On January 26 2017 21:00 mustaju wrote: Depends? I mean, one could change the range/health/armor to make it harder for mutalisk harass to attack drone lines. That would mean a more difficult time for shuttles/corsairs/observers but not tragically so, I'd presume? I have thought about spore colony change/buff for ZvZ that I don't think would affect other MUs much, is to give spore colony a small area of effect damage about the size of a reaver scarab ? Could be with decreased damage further from center, or not (I imagine better with decreased ?). But I am not sure if that is enough considering how hydra VS muta works, is hydra too weak against muta? Hydras are quite mobile, but mutas too, and they take 50% damage. I think ZvZ would be great if opening options included hydras in different ways against mutas or lings options (and mix of these). Not necessarily in equal occurences. At the time BW came out the sunken colony damage was increased quite a lot (attack rate). Probably mainly in answer to the arrival of the medic? | ||
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hitthat
Poland2234 Posts
On January 26 2017 22:51 ProMeTheus112 wrote: I have thought about spore colony change/buff for ZvZ that I don't think would affect other MUs much, is to give spore colony a small area of effect damage about the size of a reaver scarab ? Could be with decreased damage further from center, or not (I imagine better with decreased ?). But I am not sure if that is enough considering how hydra VS muta works, is hydra too weak against muta? Hydras are quite mobile, but mutas too, and they take 50% damage. I think ZvZ would be great if opening options included hydras in different ways against mutas or lings options (and mix of these). Not necessarily in equal occurences. At the time BW came out the sunken colony damage was increased quite a lot (attack rate). Probably mainly in answer to the arrival of the medic? Thats too radical. Ov sniping will be too difficult and it will also make TvZ wright strats imposible (and I like to watch it from time to time). | ||
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ProMeTheus112
France2027 Posts
[I just checked smtg, Wraith are large and mutas are small. It's possible to make spore stronger against mutas and not against wraith if you have them deal concussive damage. But this has consequences on all other medium and large air units. I think of PvZ because I'm P. Spores that would deal a small aoe dmg concussive at 15 dmg would deal 50% dmg to corsairs (medium) but small aoe, and weak dmg to arbiter or carrier or scout or shuttle. In TvZ Wraith would suffer 25% damage small AoE that's like 4 dmg, they have no armor. Overall they would be stronger cause you'd need 4 stacked wraith taking full dmg for spore to be as strong ; though longer time before a wraith gets killed. The damage value of the spore could also be tweaked. Spores dealing almost no damage to BC, does that feel right? It would become bad against drop units which seems particularly unfair so I think overall it's probably not a good idea.] How about just making hydras stronger against mutas? | ||
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GeckoXp
Germany2016 Posts
On January 26 2017 21:00 mustaju wrote: Depends? I mean, one could change the range/health/armor to make it harder for mutalisk harass to attack drone lines. That would mean a more difficult time for shuttles/corsairs/observers but not tragically so, I'd presume? @Jae Zedong - The virtue of buffing ensnare would be to make a solution for both ZvT as well as ZvZ, but the no micro argument is rather convincing, I have to say. I see Lurker/Sunken/Spore/Ensnare builds coming up, so that it's basically impossible to move in to punish a greedy Zerg, because he can delay the bursting move after a siege with goons even longer than he can already. It really sometimes is good nobody at Blizzard takes the BW community serious anymore. If you want changed ZvZ make some UMS maps and do a ZvZ only tournament. It's prolly not going to get featured, but why not. I could see myself actually watching some ZvZ then. edit: you can't make a unit strong against another unit, as every match up has them in. You would need brand new unit attributes that only work in one match up. And this seems really silly. | ||
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ProMeTheus112
France2027 Posts
On January 26 2017 23:09 GeckoXp wrote: edit: you can't make a unit strong against another unit, as every match up has them in. You would need brand new unit attributes that only work in one match up. And this seems really silly. Yes I think for any change must be considered the new relationship to every other thing in the game, because I really do think Starcraft was designed that way, the interactions between all things are well thought out and have possible nuances depending on situations and mixes and numbers.. that's why the micro is so good and also the production choices. That's why I think any possible good change would require quite a bit of back&forth discussion (most easily done around a table I guess^^). And ofc there are many possibly ways to do it or not do it, it is a creative process. It's certainly better not to change anything than changing something without having considered it thoroughly and also other possibilities. | ||
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neobowman
Canada3324 Posts
That said, there's no real unit that is solely used in ZvZ that we can alter. Maybe the scourge gets 120 damage but then we don't have the awesome muta micro we do now. Hmmm.. Spore does seem like the best choice though. Almost every non-zerg air unit is large so maybe add concussive damage? But then you need spores to do *4 damage to mutas to avoid changing anything else. | ||
BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
Scouts though they seem underused have a single purpose in the game and they fulfill it well. I've also seen them used lots of times on stream like that game eonzerg linked or when Bisu was playing against fengzi on fish etc... Their use outside of their "norm" makes the game exciting when they pop up out of nowhere and I'm ok with that. | ||
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Essbee
Canada2371 Posts
On January 27 2017 00:20 BigFan wrote: Some of the ideas proposed above sound like they came from Blizzard lol. Like, all the damage against x type units but y vs other types etc... Thankfully, I don't anticipate Blizzard doing any balance patches. Also, happy to hear that KR ex-pros don't want it touched either. I personally think that the game is fine as is. Scouts though they seem underused have a single purpose in the game and they fulfill it well. I've also seen them used lots of times on stream like that game eonzerg linked or when Bisu was playing against fengzi on fish etc... Their use outside of their "norm" makes the game exciting when they pop up out of nowhere and I'm ok with that. All of this x1000 | ||
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