EPTIf Blizz made a couple of these changes outlined, would you be upset? That's the essence of this question.
100% yes.
when will you realize that balance patches will destroy this game?
SC1 is getting patched soon!! - Page 15
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Bakuryu
Germany1065 Posts
100% yes. when will you realize that balance patches will destroy this game? | ||
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iPlaY.NettleS
Australia4383 Posts
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neobowman
Canada3324 Posts
On January 27 2017 10:25 Bakuryu wrote: 100% yes. when will you realize that balance patches will destroy this game? How would it destroy it? You're just saying "Brood War is perfect can't change it at all or it's completely ruined". Thats not an argument. How, in actual practical terms, would making small balance changes ruin the game? On January 27 2017 10:36 iPlaY.NettleS wrote: Whatever the case, for the announced changes Blizzard has currently stated in the beta 1.17 notes it's taking a long time.Been six months now since 1.17 beta was discovered. It's probably just Blizzard time. They take their time even with their top games, I can't imagine they'll feel like they need to rush this. | ||
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ninazerg
United States7291 Posts
On January 27 2017 10:53 neobowman wrote: How would it destroy it? You're just saying "Brood War is perfect can't change it at all or it's completely ruined". Thats not an argument. How, in actual practical terms, would making small balance changes ruin the game? The reason you 'patch' something is because it's "broken". If there is a fundamental problem with something, it needs to be fixed. Following this logic, you would need to change something that would make a noticeable change in game-play, otherwise, you would leave the game in a state of brokenness and your patch is essentially worthless. So I ask to you: which aspect of Brood War do you believe is fundamentally broken and what is your proposal to fix this inequality? | ||
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neobowman
Canada3324 Posts
On January 27 2017 11:02 ninazerg wrote: The reason you 'patch' something is because it's "broken". If there is a fundamental problem with something, it needs to be fixed. Following this logic, you would need to change something that would make a noticeable change in game-play, otherwise, you would leave the game in a state of brokenness and your patch is essentially worthless. So I ask to you: which aspect of Brood War do you believe is fundamentally broken and what is your proposal to fix this inequality? Zergs having a slight advantage in ZvP in general and Terran having a slight advantage in ZvT in general. All of my earlier change proposals were for this exact thing. | ||
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Assault_1
Canada1950 Posts
On January 27 2017 10:25 Bakuryu wrote: 100% yes. when will you realize that balance patches will destroy this game? It's obvious BW balancing isn't perfect, for example nukes, scouts, infested terran are never used. There's definitely a way to improve the game further through balance changes, the problem is just it's very difficult to do. | ||
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ninazerg
United States7291 Posts
On January 27 2017 07:08 [[Starlight]] wrote: I'm sure if I did, you would pooh-pooh it/pick it apart. So you're saying that ideas might be criticized by me? That's... horrifying. Rather than going down that very obvious path, let's instead ask YOU, Nina, if there are any balance changes you can think of that would be beneficial. I'm guessing the answer will probably be "no"... even though in other threads, I do remember you saying "nerf tanks."  But you might've been joking, I don't know. It depends on what you mean by "beneficial". The game is fun. If it wasn't fun, I'm not sure what patch I could do to fix that. | ||
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ninazerg
United States7291 Posts
On January 27 2017 11:05 neobowman wrote: Zergs having a slight advantage in ZvP in general and Terran having a slight advantage in ZvT in general. All of my earlier change proposals were for this exact thing. I need to see what you're using as the source for your statistics that ZvP favors Zerg and ZvT favors Terran. | ||
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neobowman
Canada3324 Posts
On January 27 2017 11:16 ninazerg wrote: I need to see what you're using as the source for your statistics that ZvP favors Zerg and ZvT favors Terran. Aight, let's go with the Hosic Starleague to begin with. http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sospa/leagues/5094_HoSic_BJ_Starleague_Season_2/main TvZ. 3-0. Not big enough sample size to matter. ZvP 8-4. A bigger sample size. Still not enough to be clear. ASL 2 http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sospa/leagues/5092_Afreeca_Starleague_S2 TvZ: 8-11 (42.1%) ZvP: 5-13 (27.8%) Reverse splits. Fair sample size. ASL 1 http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sospa/leagues/4961_Afreeca_Starleague_S1 TvZ: 9-4 (69.2%) ZvP: 2-2 (50%) TvZ normal splits. Fair sample size. Not enough for ZvP. Let's take the total of the three leagues. TvZ: 20-15 ZvP: 15-19 Looks like ZvP has a reverse split. Cool. Let's look at bigger samples. Let's look at top players from December Afreeca. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/brood-war/517764-bw-afreeca-top-5-players-in-the-month-of-dec Effort ZvT: 37-32 (53.6%) ZvP: 53-18 (74.6%) ZvT is by far weaker than his ZvP. Larva. ZvT: 41-25 (62.1%) ZvP: 41-21 (66.1%) Not nearly as big of a disparity. Still there. Jaedong. ZvT: 60-60 (50%) ZvP: 79-39 (66%) Significantly better in ZvP with a large sample size. We'll go back to November. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/brood-war/516873-bw-afreeca-top-5-players-in-the-month-of-nov #2 Hero ZvT: 70-48 (59.3%) ZvP: 57-25 (69.5%) Another big split. #3 Effort ZvT: 64- 47 (57.6%) ZvP: 70-36 (66%) Same deal. #5 Larva ZvT: 32-28 (53.3%) ZvP : 42-27 (60.8%) Surprise. Let's total the zerg ZvP and ZvT stats for November and December (I could go further back but I'm lazy) ZvT: 304-240 (55.9%) ZvP: 342-166 (67.3%) That's a good sample size Best Zergs in the world past 2 months, none have been better at ZvT than ZvP. Combined winrate is more than 10% higher against Toss than Terran. Quote from Zero Interview Q: It appears that TvZ has tilted too far in favor of Terran. How much of an advantage does Terran have these days? Why? A: I think that there is no way to beat a good Terran as Zerg. This is mainly because good mutalisk micro just cannot beat good marine-medic micro. It is almost natural that this is the case since marines have longer range. I actually think that TvZ balance was worse back in the KeSPA era because everyone’s physical abilities were at their peaks. That was why leagues kept trotting out maps unfavorable to Terran in those days. I think that TvZ balance is actually okay these days because marine-medic micro is not as sharp as it used to be. Shuttle Interview after ASL 1 Q: You've had some very strong PvT wins over Last and Sharp, is Terran your favorite/preferred opponent? Would you have liked to played some more Zerg players?A: Ever since my KeSPA days, my favorite matchup was PvP. PvT was a difficult matchup for me, but I feel like I have improved my ability to see and draw the big picture in PvT (e.g., timing my expansions) during the past few months while preparing for the ASL. I most certainly did NOT want to play any Zerg players in the league. Other than Bisu, there is no Protoss player who wants to play against Zerg. I wish all Zergs would just go away and never come back. | ||
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ninazerg
United States7291 Posts
Also, I know we all revere former progamers as gods, but their statements are merely opinions, and making that appeal to authority really does nothing to empirically show that there is an inherent imbalance in the game. I like that you took the time to look at some statistics. However, there are a few problems with your samples, which are that, again, the few players you've selected all have winning records against Terran in ZvT. Combining the records of the three leagues you've cited, Zerg is actually losing ZvP. However, when you go on to cite statistics from Zergs with winning records against Protoss, you're reporting numbers of like 60 - 75%. Most of the ZvP stats you've cited are around 66%. So I took all the leagues from now back to SSL10 and combined ALL the numbers of all the ZvP games played in all those tournaments: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sospa/leagues/5094_HoSic_BJ_Starleague_Season_2 : 8-4 http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sospa/leagues/5093_SBB_Starleague : 0 - 1 http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sospa/leagues/5092_Afreeca_Starleague_S2 : 5 - 13 http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sospa/leagues/5091_Thrill_Starleague : 10 - 6 http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sospa/leagues/5084_Nal_rA_Starleague : 3 - 3 http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sospa/leagues/4961_Afreeca_Starleague_S1 : 2 - 2 http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sospa/leagues/4797_Kim_Carry_Myeongin_League : 11 - 4 http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sospa/leagues/4759_41_Ranking_Tournament_Season_1 : 6 - 2 http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sospa/leagues/4639_Spotimes_Starleague_2 : 13 - 10 http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sospa/leagues/4636_Spicy_Rice_Cake_S2 : 2 - 1 http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sospa/leagues/4634_VANT_Starleague : 15 - 10 http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sospa/leagues/4635_Spicy_Rice_Cake_S1 : no zvp played http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sospa/leagues/4629_KDS_Starleague_S2 : 9 - 10 http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sospa/leagues/4633_Bisu_Blind_League : 3 - 1 http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sospa/leagues/4627_Spotimes_Starleague : 5 - 3 http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sospa/leagues/4592_SSL_11 : 20 - 13 http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sospa/leagues/4589_Draemong_Starleague : 2 - 6 http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sospa/leagues/4585_Seaside_Super_Tournament : 4 - 0 http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sospa/leagues/4568_41_Maki_Starleague : 3 - 3 http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sospa/leagues/4567_Terror_Starleague : 5 - 5 http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sospa/leagues/4563_HoSic_SiGolChugSanBae_SL : 6 - 1 http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sospa/leagues/4562_PianO_Starleague : 5 - 2 http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sospa/leagues/4533_HungryApp_Starz_League : 9 - 0 http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sospa/leagues/4529_SSL_10 : 5 - 8 This comes out to 151 - 108 ZvP, or about 58%, well under the individual player stats that you've cited. For TvZ (from the sample pool), Terran wins 181 - 161, for a win:loss ratio of 53%. This means that the extreme disparity between ZvT and ZvP win:loss ratios that you are reporting is much less, separated by about 5%. By map: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/maps/188_Destination_1.1 : TvZ - 52%, ZvP - 57% http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/maps/404_Circuit_Breaker : TvZ - 53%, ZvP - 51% http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/maps/237_Fighting_Spirit : TvZ - 52%, ZvP - 53% http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/maps/407_Benzene : TvZ - 64%, ZvP - 49% http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/maps/235_Match_Point: TvZ - 55%, ZvP - 57% http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/maps/275_Polaris_Rhapsody : TvZ - 59%, ZvP - 40% http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/maps/536_Neo_Electric_Circuit : TvZ - 71%, ZvP - 68% http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/maps/547_New_Sniper_Ridge : TvZ - 56%, ZvP - 30% http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/maps/545_Neo_Jade : TvZ - 50%, ZvP - 45% http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/maps/546_Neo_Ground_Zero : TvZ - 83%, ZvP - 47% http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/maps/418_La_Mancha : TvZ - 52%, ZvP - 58% http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/maps/267_New_Heartbreak_Ridge : TvZ - 60%, ZvP - 61% While some maps statistically seem to favor one race in a particular match-up, other maps seem to suggest that the map itself mitigates the advantages of that said race in the same match-up. This shows that the map in question may have a significant impact on the outcome of a match-up statistically. Statistics also vary by player:  x  http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/players/125_Bisu vZ: 133-53 (71.51%) http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/players/63_JangBi vZ: 79-71 (52.67%) http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/players/59_Stork vZ: 124-102 (54.87%) http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/players/611_Stats vZ: 39-33 (54.17%) http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/players/564_Movie vZ: 51-38 (57.30%) http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/players/630_Horang2 vZ: 19-23 (45.24%) http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/players/652_Snow vZ: 22-29 (43.14%) http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/players/549_Brave vZ: 21-16 (56.76%) http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/players/124_Jaehoon vZ: 19-31 (38.00%) http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/players/697_Rain vZ: 11-11 (50.00%) http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/players/86_Shuttle vZ: 20-21 (48.78%) http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/players/1102_Mini vZ: 5-4 (55.56%) http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/players/16_BeSt vZ: 52-57 (47.71%) http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/players/128_Tyson vZ: 14-20 (41.18%) http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/players/692_Grape vZ: 11-8 (57.89%) The point is, the statistics vary based on the player. To take a small sample size of the very best Zergs right now and use that as statistical evidence is something I find to be slightly disingenuous. I'm not saying that the match-up does NOT favor Zerg statistically ('statistics' being key here -- they don't and should not affect a player's mindset or approach to a match-up) but that it is not a massive gap that the average person cannot overcome through practice and hard work. | ||
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Jealous
10274 Posts
ZvP: 2-2 (50%) TvZ normal splits. Fair sample size" I almost spit out my beverage lol | ||
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Ethelis
United States2397 Posts
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parkufarku
882 Posts
On January 27 2017 01:56 biryusky wrote: god damn when is this ever gonna stop. Blizzard hasnt touched jack shit about balance since like 10 years ago. Why are we even speculating or suggesting things that dont go anywhere? Because the title of thread says "SC1 is getting patched soon" ??? Are you afraid that Blizzard will finally deservedly nerf Terran and balance ZvT? Oh no, a balanced game incoming, that sounds horrid! | ||
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Jealous
10274 Posts
On January 27 2017 15:26 Ethelis wrote: Either way, if memory serves me right, the aim was supposed to be T > Z > P > T. I don't think Blizzard ever said anything of this nature but I'd love to be proven wrong about this. | ||
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ninazerg
United States7291 Posts
On January 27 2017 15:51 parkufarku wrote: Because the title of thread says "SC1 is getting patched soon" ??? Are you afraid that Blizzard will finally deservedly nerf Terran and balance ZvT? Oh no, a balanced game incoming, that sounds horrid! Terran doesn't need to be nerfed. The problem with Zergs playing ZvT is that they all do the same build, and do it every game like a robot. It's the match-up that has changed the least in the last 5 years. | ||
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duke91
Germany1458 Posts
Jeez | ||
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Highgamer
1448 Posts
On January 27 2017 11:08 Assault_1 wrote: It's obvious BW balancing isn't perfect, for example nukes, scouts, infested terran are never used. There's definitely a way to improve the game further through balance changes, the problem is just it's very difficult to do. Not following the whole discussion, but this point seems odd to me. "Balance = every unit is used"... that doesn't really make sense, and that idea lead to some of the lesser balance-changes in SC2 iirc. And it would take from the current awesomeness when these said units are actually used in BW... 'improve the game further through balance changes': perfectionism is a fine thing, but it has a downside, too, it can ruin already good things... everyone who wants some minor changes has to admit that there is this danger... As much as I dislike some the losses in TvP... and blame balance-issues for it... I'd rather keep the majority of games where it's 50/50 instead of striving for 50% winrates in absolute numbers.. | ||
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parkufarku
882 Posts
On January 27 2017 16:16 ninazerg wrote: Terran doesn't need to be nerfed. The problem with Zergs playing ZvT is that they all do the same build, and do it every game like a robot. It's the match-up that has changed the least in the last 5 years. Respectfully disagree. BW hasn't even been alive in the past two years so if you mean "last 5 years" as in the last 5 years that BW was active, it has changed. Before Savior implemented the 3 hatch muta opening, 2 hatch / 3 hatch lurker buildings were popular. After 3 hatch muta was adapted, and Zerg late game shifted from Guardians to Ultras (with more late game bases, Zergs could now handle the gas cost), Terrans started the whole late game mech transition which was really unfair for late game ZvT, in which even Terran progamers like Sea had admitted the matchup is uphill for Zerg. Then Zergs started exploring 2 hatch muta builds where they try to punish Terran with earlier Muta timings but then Terrans adjusted to that too so Zergs have gone back to 3 hatch mutas. It's a limited game with limited openings, there's only so much variety you can try out before you exhaust pretty much all options. Even Jaedong tried to incorporate Queens into mid-game ZvT but that was too risky and micro-dependent, because if your Queen got sniped, it would take a while to ensnare to hit up again. Finally Zergs like Zero (who has also expressed ZvT is not balanced matchup) tried to incorporate late game mass Queen spawn broodling tactic to counter mass tanks, but it was only with limited success b/c the spell costs too much energy. Tournaments has always tried to create slightly Zerg-favorable maps because Terrans were just winning too much and some maps were favorable but it has only been a band-aid solution rather than a real solution. Do you also realize why we never see cliffs over naturals anymore like Lost Temple? That's because tanks can abuse that shit against both Z and P. If one race needs maps to weaken it to balance the matchup, it's not the maps, but the inherent race itself that's the problem. And again, I respect your opinion but I think progamers like Zero or Sea know much more about balance than you ever would. I don't even want to go into more progamers who have expressed similar sentiments, but there are more. | ||
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Zera
Lithuania716 Posts
On January 27 2017 16:58 parkufarku wrote: Respectfully disagree. BW hasn't even been alive in the past two years Have you been living under the rock? There wasn't a moment BW was not alive. | ||
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parkufarku
882 Posts
On January 27 2017 17:22 Zera wrote: Have you been living under the rock? There wasn't a moment BW was not alive. That's subjective. Last 2 years BW hasn't really been as it was before. And I'm talking about the moment when Jangbi vs (forgot the other gamer) had their last tournament was pretty much the final real scene of BW since all the pros like Flash, Bisu, etc went to SC2. Killer was on top for a while but that was because most good players already left. Now the real top class players are finally coming back, and the scene is revitalizing again. You can't deny that. | ||
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