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On May 21 2015 15:04 FHDH wrote:
. Europe definitely should have one, China should definitely have one, and then what? Can you justify giving a second to any three of those over the other?
China has payment issues and NA visa issues , but then again who would be able to host another EU major? Dreamhack has the history money and the csgo majors experience but look at dreamleague, it became more of a training/grow talent thing and starladder doesnt have the professional experience to host something this big.
Theres also the SEA minesky mgl thing that night be able to host something but thats reeeeaaally questionable.
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On May 21 2015 17:17 Townkill wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2015 17:11 DE3me wrote:
Wow, way better writing than older blogs and way better reasoning as well. I think i can get behind nearly everything envy said this time, just the Holymaster and the 'chairs without armrest' (i prefer my chair without armrest anyway :d) thing seems like nitpicking a bit to much. Is it though? This goes with the standardization thing we've been discussing, be it the monitors used at TI compared to other tournaments etc. A lot of players didn't realize how big those TI monitors were until the BTS house this weekend, and some are going to adjust they're home setups for it. I get what you mean, and it comes off always negatively as all bad things have in the past. But make no mistake, if you take 3 lbs of pressure out of a football, it changes the game, and them guys have to lose cash out of pocket for it. Granted in DotA, these teams are competing for a prize, however losing that prize which you never had to unfair or unusual playing standards is REALLY what makes 90% of the whining and complaining in the first place. Ballgate is serious shit, and as a watcher of SPORTS, this is serious to me until they players are all satisfied(or can come to an agreement, legally, or just professionally with the scene) that we need to replicate the same conditions everytime, as often as possible. BTS might not have had the racer practice chairs, just like the computers, I hope they invest(Or find an investor). I know if I went to lane as a storm spirit, and my tangos cost me 400 gold this one game, rather the 125, Id be calling w33fresh advantages for days... A similar example, is games that usually port between PC and Console. They normally have to make actual gameplay balance adjustments, because the games played differently between a keyboard or controller.
I think your example sucks, because it is more like the football players having a slightly bigger or larger warm up area instead of changing the ball and you can ask any traditional sports guys, they won't care. In general in traditional sports there are organizations that watch over any regulations and they are way more picky about it than the players (i speak from experience here).
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no mention of the tub interview? =>
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28076 Posts
On May 21 2015 17:57 ChriS-X wrote:
no mention of the tub interview? =>
It probably triggers nightmares.
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
I think one mistake EE makes here is the assumption of what a major would look like vs what Frankfurt looks like. The reason BTS can be a 4-5 day even is because venue over head is 1/4 of monthly rent. I've had the discussion a few times about what would be "best"...playing an event for 4 days from a small location with deep brackets double elim etc or single elim in huge venues.
We've made a decision to do it this way so far specifically because every other event outside of DAC/TI is small in scale with a double elim bracket. If we did a major, i imagine Valve would have some requirements on scale and how to run it, but its relevance in context of every other tournament in the scene then suddenly begins to justify huge extra costs.
Its really hard to tell what that will look like when Valve hasn't decided yet either how majors will work.
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Dear Jacky,
thanks for singling me out four times, I feel very honored.
I understand that you would prefer to have the same rules in all tournaments. Maybe I was too used to other tournaments always copying mine, that I overslept the development of this highly significant area.
But there actually is a reason for this. It's bringing a bit more variety into it. I still remember TI3 finals when Na'Vi and Alliance had the same sides and the same draft order for all five games of the grand final, This resulted in very minimal differences in the picks. So I prefer to force the change between game 1 and 2 to mix things up.
I don't have super strong feelings about this, but we always felt that it's slightly more enjoyable to watch, while still - as you say - keeping the match fair. Please keep in mind, that eSports is not only about players, but also about the people watching it (related to this: ESL being called out for being the only major organizer with the balls to do single elimination). But maybe you're just too used to many others instantly catering to only the player's needs.
Well, from our end it's not a huge deal. We're still talking about side & draft order here and not about playing all random. So if tiny factors like this are so in focus by now, it means that the major ones are fine. So I'm not too worried.
What I found most interesting is that you called me the "least retarded" of all admins in person at TI4, maybe the biggest praise I have received until now, Only to call me out less than a year later for apparently being the most retarded one after nothing has changed.
Of course we will consider to change the rules to the new standard. My feelings about it are not that strong. Maybe I'll climb up the retard ladder a bit again.
Best regards,
DHMS
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On May 21 2015 13:23 EternaLEnVy wrote:
Everytime I write one of these blogs I always ask myself if it’s a good idea. Too much praise and flames and it gets me thinking sometimes. Ya it probably isn’t good for me but LMFAO wHo cAREAS HAHA Xd.
As always I apologize for my shit writing.
Also if I hurt your feelings in this blog, I don’t give a fuck. Thanks to those who properly read this blog, and to those that discuss about the points in it. To those who would use this blog as simply an excuse to attack me directly, go fuck yourselves.
Lol. Hardboys.
Seriously why do we have another of these every month or so? I felt like this is the same blog as always. New specifics, but same old same old.
Dota just needs time.
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On May 21 2015 18:18 HolyMaster wrote:
Dear Jacky,
thanks for singling me out four times, I feel very honored.
I understand that you would prefer to have the same rules in all tournaments. Maybe I was too used to other tournaments always copying mine, that I overslept the development of this highly significant area.
But there actually is a reason for this. It's bringing a bit more variety into it. I still remember TI3 finals when Na'Vi and Alliance had the same sides and the same draft order for all five games of the grand final, This resulted in very minimal differences in the picks. So I prefer to force the change between game 1 and 2 to mix things up.
I don't have super strong feelings about this, but we always felt that it's slightly more enjoyable to watch, while still - as you say - keeping the match fair. Please keep in mind, that eSports is not only about players, but also about the people watching it (related to this: ESL being called out for being the only major organizer with the balls to do single elimination). But maybe you're just too used to many others instantly catering to only the player's needs.
Well, from our end it's not a huge deal. We're still talking about side & draft order here and not about playing all random. So if tiny factors like this are so in focus by now, it means that the major ones are fine. So I'm not too worried.
What I found most interesting is that you called me the "least retarded" of all admins in person at TI4, maybe the biggest praise I have received until now, Only to call me out less than a year later for apparently being the most retarded one after nothing has changed.
Of course we will consider to change the rules to the new standard. My feelings about it are not that strong. Maybe I'll climb up the retard ladder a bit again.
Best regards,
DHMS
Are you saying Redbull finals having Secret on Radiant every single game and consequently the same 3-4 first bans in almost every game was a bad thing somehow? Are you saying that was the MOST boring part of an otherwise fun finals at Redbull? Are you saying that something should be done from an admin standpoint to make sure this doesn't happen?
I actually didn't read the supplement to Jacky's post and wow. This is the reason I tend to hate these posts. This kind of whine right here. "How can I plan when I don't know what side I'm going to be on?"
You
Are a professional
Dota
Player
MAN UP.
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Envy, go change your hero icon
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Of course single elim is understandable for ESL given the time constraints, but it's also clear why players may not like the format. You travel somewhere to play for 1-2 days and your final placing may be very much determined by bracket draw. Not sure whether players prefer a huge crowd or a smaller venue but a tournament structure that is better for figuring out the correct order for teams. Also I'm not sure about how different models do financially. For example ESL Frankfurt last year was 2 days at a very large venue but they had a lot of people attending, buying tickets and whatever drinks and food, and Summit 3 for example had no live spectators so they have to cover their costs with other sources of income. Naturally tournaments should also try to do what makes sense for them financially, and sometimes this may include choosing a tournament format that fits with the venue and schedule they want.
As a spectator (watching from home) I don't really mind single elim in general, but the event just feels very short when there are only 7 series played and suddenly it is over. 4 teams play only once in the entire tournament, 2 teams play twice and 2 teams play 3 times. As a format I don't think single elim is out of the question even for a major, but I feel then there should be a group stage before it to determine the seeding. Firstly it sets the context for the playoffs when viewers see the teams face each other in the group stage, and it removes issues with how to seed teams from different continents into the bracket.
Though I'm not sure what using single elim has to do with "having balls". A simple single elim bracket without proper seeding is simply a bad format in terms of being fair. I'm not talking specifically about ESL as I'm not sure how the brackets have been drawn in Frankfurt and NY, but for example there have been some Chinese tournaments using a single elim bracket where close to all the best teams were on the same side. Not only can it be bad for teams, but at that point it also takes away from viewer hype in terms of good matchups for the final rounds of the tournament. Imo its main advantage is simply that it takes less time to run. From a hype perspective I don't think double elim is any worse, but obviously people have different opinions on this.
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Single elimination IS a bad format. It's bad for competitors and it's bad for spectators. There are advantages - it's compact; there is a lot of drama immediately - but it's not good competitively and you kill good storylines with it. I will never understand fans who don't like double elim.
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Russian Federation421 Posts
On May 21 2015 13:53 tehh4ck3r wrote:
I think MLG is the obvious choice to run a major in the US
There is TI already and I don't think it won't happen next year.
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Russian Federation421 Posts
On May 21 2015 19:28 FHDH wrote:
Single elimination IS a bad format. It's bad for competitors and it's bad for spectators. There are advantages - it's compact; there is a lot of drama immediately - but it's not good competitively and you kill good storylines with it. I will never understand fans who don't like double elim.
It's good competitively - every team try as hard as they can every match otherwise they're out. I think having bigger series can compensate for small amount of matches. Overall, I think both single and double elimination has its advantages and I see no reason to hate one format or another.
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my boy jacky! your blogs are the best. never stop writing them
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On May 21 2015 20:00 Ingvar wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2015 19:28 FHDH wrote:
Single elimination IS a bad format. It's bad for competitors and it's bad for spectators. There are advantages - it's compact; there is a lot of drama immediately - but it's not good competitively and you kill good storylines with it. I will never understand fans who don't like double elim. It's good competitively - every team try as hard as they can every match otherwise they're out.
This is very idealized. I've been an NFL fan for decades and they have single-elimination playoffs and the drama is huge but the downsides are very real. Seeding is terribly uneven. Little bits of luck can end your season - or send you further than you should have gone.
Yeah, everybody "tries their hardest" but it still delivers bogus results on a regular basis.
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Bosnia-Herzegovina2 Posts
On May 21 2015 18:18 HolyMaster wrote:
Dear Jacky,...
...
lol
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single elimination is fine IF you can seed the teams nicely
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yeah well i actually have to say the later part of that blog was pretty damn stupid u_u
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I'm hoping SEA gets a Major.
Places I'd like to see it held (according to preference)
1. South Korea - great infrastructure for eSports
2. Singapore - good infrastructure and is more accessible to the general SEA audience
3. Malaysia - sizable Dota crowd and okay infrastructure
4. Philippines - huge Dota crowd but questionable infrastructure
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EPT
