EPTThe next major balance patch - David Kim - Page 7
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intrigue
Washington, D.C9933 Posts
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zmansman17
United States2567 Posts
On December 04 2012 06:08 Jermstuddog wrote: I keep looking and hoping that Blizzard pulls their heads out of their asses and fixes the game, but they're just too damned committed to their bullshit, gimmicky units. -I like that they're playing with the Thor/Raven, but why the fuck do they want Bio to be viable for late-game Terran? That shit is not pretty, it's not cute, it takes away all the beautiful things that made BW terran so good. The simplest way I can put it is that even in WoL, mech is fine. The biggest problem facing mech in WoL is bio, nothing else. If bio is viable, mech will never be viable, end of story. Why can't Blizzard understand this simple principle? -Medivac speed burst... I just... I don't even know where to begin... Fucking horrible idea. -Tie Reapers to Widow Mines and be done with it. This makes them important all game long in all Terran MUs and allows them to keep on with their harassment stats and not be OP in straight-up fights while being an important part of every Terran game. I think that's about it for Terran. Stop worrying about bio and start worrying about the Tank for fuck's sake. -Hydra speed is nice, but it doesn't solve the problems with the unit. They need more range, or lower cost, or both. -Muta/Ultra changes are nice. Would be happy to see core Zerg units become core again. -Nerf the shit out of Fungal plz. Give back a useful version of NP, that spell was a LOT more interesting all along. -Swarm Host, don't care. At least Blizz seems to have an idea of how to make Zerg more interesting. Let's see if they don't fuck the race in the ass like they did back in WoL beta. Void Ray - Make VR attack add a stacking -1 armor to the target being attacked instead of it's stupid damage bonus it currently has, then re-balance stats to be decent per-cost at straight-up fighting without the OP charged bullshit. Problem solved. -Get rid of the Colossus, make the Tempest the new Colossus if you really want, but please, for the love of god, get rid of the Colossus, even if it's just on principle. -I don't think DT has a problem with viability in late-game outside of cost, but that has been a complaint since day 1. DTs should be 150/100. Problem solved. Overall, these notes make me sad for the future of the game. Blizzard builds up these issues like they're hard things. This is all shit we've been complaining about since the beginning of the game. This shit is not new, it's not hard to see, it's fucking obvious. Worse yet, Blizzard remains willfully ignorant to other glaring issues like the sucky state of the Siege Tank in TvP, Colossus, Force Field and Warp Gate in general, and the general lack of brilliance in MOST of the HotS units. When pre-orders went up last month, I didn't buy HotS, and this is making me think I made the right choice. I will pour a beer tonight for the Blizzard of olde. A homie like that deserves better than to have it's name smashed into the ground like we're seeing today. I like your post for two reasons. 1) You are a zerg player that admits that fungal needs to be nerfed. 2) You observe that NP is a much more interesting spell than fungal and I agree with that assertion. That's one spell I honestly wish I saw more of... | ||
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zmansman17
United States2567 Posts
On December 04 2012 06:15 intrigue wrote: why not just have medivac burn energy for a speed boost? makes it so drops for mech makes more sense too This would be an EXCELLENT idea. And one that rewards high APM, skillful play. Once again, this is why Blizzard should pay more attention to the forums, the pros and other sources for balance suggestions. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On December 04 2012 06:15 intrigue wrote: why not just have medivac burn energy for a speed boost? makes it so drops for mech makes more sense too And they can burn off the energy vs protoss to avoid the feedback damage as well. Then the play has to make the choice of how much they want to burn vs how much damage they are willing to risk. | ||
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Tachion
Canada8573 Posts
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Nausea
Sweden807 Posts
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Zahir
United States947 Posts
Same goes for half of the terran changes. Everyone has been saying how thors, reapers, mech in general, and ravens need to be retooled - now they're finally working on it. Nerfing vortex is a good way to shift protoss away from their gimmicky, coinflippy late game, and it SEEMS like blizz is finally working on making stargate tech actually good. And i agree some of the other changes are dumb, like medivac speed burst. But jesus, at least they have finally acknowledged most of the main problems of starcraft: weak mech, fungal too good and other zerg shit not good enough, protoss too reliant on mothership. Now if they would just axe the colossus and make FF less micro-inhibiting, we would be on our way to a nearly perfect game. | ||
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Antylamon
United States1981 Posts
On December 04 2012 04:55 Rabiator wrote: 1.1 Why only redesign the Thor ABILITY? Because the Thor doesn't need to be completely redone. 1.2 What for? So Reapers don't end up useless. In WoL beta, Reapers got overshadowed by Hellions. Reapers need a unique role which makes them useful for some situtations, and Hellions more useful for others. 1.3 Something I came up with: What about a damage shield that burns everyone striking the Battle Hellion? Sounds unique. Post it on BNet. 1.4 What is the point of MORE SPEED? Do you honestly think that casuals can control that adequately? It's not more speed. It's a temporary boost. And do you seriously think casuals are that terrible? Sounds like you think they're WoL Copper... 1.5 Hmmmm ... why not nerf the "other units"? Because nerfing "the other units" affects PvZ, while buffing Terran Bio affects TvZ. I think we can agree that if Protoss were nerfed even more than getting rid of Vortex, then PvZ would be lopsided. 1.6 Combining the upgrades for air and mech doesnt buff mech ... it buffs airmech. It's an indirect buff to Mech. You know how Zerg can switch from Ultras to BLs a bit more easily because Broodlings are affected by melee upgrades? It's kind of the same deal here, combining the upgrades allows a transition to BC/Viking/Raven/Thor to be easier. 2.1 If Hydralisks get their speed buff you can remove the creep tumor to take away the map hack for Zerg. I hear Obs and Ravens hard counter Creep Tumors. If you don't want Zerg to cover the entire map, don't turtle. 2.2 WTF? Mutalisks are fast already ... and look at 1.4 More speed doesnt make the game better ... only less controlled. I think they're actually looking into a real moving shot. 2.3 Zerg needs more units with "bonus damage" OR that stupid concept needs to be removed because it is actually "limited damage" http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Damage#Types_of_Damage. Also, how did bonus damage get into this? 2.4 How? Patience. 2.5 Why? A cloaked "free unit generator" isnt good enough and it has to be really mobile as well? Makes no sense at all. Mobility = Micro Potential, more or less 3.1 When to activate the charge? ALWAYS! ASAP! ... If the charge can be kept up only for X seconds it is a nerf and not a buff. No, it's definitely a buff. Think Stim and imagine if Marines had to charge. And it's not specifically intended to be a buff or a nerf either, just a redesign so the VR isn't overshadowed by other units. 3.2 Why not scrap the whole Oracle because it does jobs which other flying units (Phoenix) are already doing? The Phoenix hardly qualifies as a spellcaster. 3.3 Easy ... just introduce a 12 unit selection limit and force units to spread out while moving. No need to fiddle around with unit stats or timings, just reduce the unit density from "ridiculously high" to "reasonably low and HARD TO INCREASE". To the ignorant many things are simple. Play Starbow if you want these. 3.4 Wow ... all or nothing is bad? You are catching on fast! ... NOT. How about all the other "100% effects" like bonus damage, Blink, Forcefield, Fungal, Baneling-rightclick-on-a-Planetary-Fortress? I can't even comprehend the amount of idiocy here. Infestors are being nerfed, FF is trampled by Thors (Blizz is making TvP Mech viable, remember) and Colossi. ZvP early game is balanced around FF atm, and late game is air-based for Zerg, meaning FF just hinders Toss from killing the Infestors. Bane vs PF and Blink are hardly relevant because the pros heavily outweigh the cons for Blink, and that amount of Banes is a very costly suicide bomb which would be better spent on Marines. 3.5 Sooo ... Tempest doesnt counter everything yet? Better buff it quick! The "doesn't" was a typo. Read on to the "We currently don't like how Zerg can't go Tier 3 units if Tempests are in play" part. 3.6 Why? As an excuse to not fix the Carrier problem? Big difference. Carriers are late game units while VRs, Phoenix, and Oracles are midgame units. The intent is not to improve late game Air Toss, but to improve midgame Air Toss. Please read more thoroughly and don't make split-second evaluations about DK's ideas. You sound like a DK hater to me. This video will be your undoing! | ||
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a176
Canada6688 Posts
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
On December 04 2012 06:05 NKexquisite wrote: + Show Spoiler + On December 04 2012 03:36 Markwerf wrote: Terran 1 very good, hope they get something nice 2 i feel it is fine as it is, already quite good in tvt / tvz 3 what? hellbats already stomp zerglings too hard.. Don't screw over TvZ because of your stupid idea's to change TvP into mech wars 4 medivac usage is already pretty big but i guess this is fine 5 good idea but vague 6 combing the upgrades seems alright but makes mech too strong really, i don't get why they think mech is weak in HotS.. it's already rediculous except in TvP missing a change to battlecruiser.. missing a radical change to widow mine, stupid unit now zerg 1. very good, better yet just combine range and speed upgrade. 2. seems fine 3. definately needs a buff, the new ability is just terrible too. Way too slow, often doesn't work well and spreads the units while ultra's depend on splash.. 4. also ok with me, i'd like to see fungal back to longer duration again making it a nice tactical spell instead and only getting a few infestors instead of the spamfest it is now 5. ok i guess protoss 1. voidray really needs a more drastic change then this to have some real use since it's so similar to the tempest. Something along the lines of a speed buff or build time buff i'd say 2 good idea, oracle is still crap now. Please give back detection to it. 3 good move, merge with templar archives please  4 very good, nerf the mothership so it's useless and just a newbie unit 5 haven't experienced this myself but must also admit haven't had many ZvP go beyond the lair swarm host stuff 6 fine as long as it doesn't always become the same combination (ie you always go void -> phoenix -> a few oracle). There should be differentation when to choose which unit missing changes to the mothership core, i hate it's design now. Too strong of a deterrent against midgame terran/zerg pushes. "free" vision up the ramp is still breaking blink rushes as well which arguably makes it even harder to expand in PvP than before.. Overall many good motives but almost no good concrete idea's and he's missing out on some of the most important issues I think (Msc and widow mine). I have little confidence they fix many of these issues quickly, given how they've been doing so far.. Mech isn't good vs a Zerg that knows what they are doing... And Mech has no answer to Brood Lord/Infestor/Corruptor have you played hots?? Mech is insane against zerg at the moment.. Lings are completely useless vs mech now and hellbats are fantastic frontline units against roach. Widow mines make muta a joke. Sure broodlord/infestor/corruptor is still strong against mech but you can beat that by hitting zerg before they get it or just having enough vikings, both are really easy now because zerg can't get there as easily. Plus you need less units to dominate the ground so you can hit earlier or just put more into vikings.. As it stands mech is just broken against zerg really. | ||
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playa
United States1284 Posts
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snively
United States1159 Posts
id like to see that | ||
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TurboMaN
Germany925 Posts
I will mark this in my calendar! :D Lets see how these changes will be implemented. It's about time. | ||
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sYstim
Canada161 Posts
On December 04 2012 06:15 intrigue wrote: why not just have medivac burn energy for a speed boost? makes it so drops for mech makes more sense too sounds brilliant. and as another user said, it gives terrans the option to avoid feedback counters to drops (instead of having to emp your own units) | ||
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Rainling
United States456 Posts
On December 04 2012 06:15 intrigue wrote: why not just have medivac burn energy for a speed boost? makes it so drops for mech makes more sense too That's a great idea. It would make medivacs more fun to use and make drops more viable in the mid-late game because medivacs could temporarily outrun muta or corruptor flocks. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On December 04 2012 06:26 playa wrote: "Make the oracle more of a worker harasser." O gawd, I hope a reincarnation of entombed isn't brought back in disguise. They need to hold a contest or something for coming up with new oracle abilities, or else it's just going to be that weird and annoying fixation on stopping workers from mining. The void ray charge modification sounds interesting, and the comments on the DT are peculiar, as cost/additional structures shouldn't really be stopping anyone from making dts late game. If dts end up having blink, I'm never going to doubt the implementation of any idea again. I demand to be able to stasis workers, but only workers, with the beam. Unable to be harmed, move or mine for a set amount of time. It only targets one work at a time, so micro is required, but the result is hilarious. They can even block movement in this state, to further cause issues with mining. | ||
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sYstim
Canada161 Posts
On December 04 2012 06:25 Markwerf wrote: have you played hots?? Mech is insane against zerg at the moment.. Lings are completely useless vs mech now and hellbats are fantastic frontline units against roach. Widow mines make muta a joke. Sure broodlord/infestor/corruptor is still strong against mech but you can beat that by hitting zerg before they get it or just having enough vikings, both are really easy now because zerg can't get there as easily. Plus you need less units to dominate the ground so you can hit earlier or just put more into vikings.. As it stands mech is just broken against zerg really. and what about throwing in some hydras/vipers? the viper is very good at resurfacing the landscape of the position-reliant mech army - not only abduction but also blinding cloud. also, mutas may have always had their place being "harassment" units, but people forget that since the 'magic box' method has been discovered, mutas can be a substantial threat vs mech. thors do not trade well with boxed mutas, and the amount of thors you'd need to combat a quick muta switch (in addition to their harassment threat) is inefficient. sure you say widow mine, but that works best when defending. I guess you could argue good offensive widow mine placement can also reduce muta viability, but who knows - i think this is one of the intentions of the 'buff to mutalisks' as well | ||
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
On December 04 2012 06:10 MVega wrote: Good ideas overall I think. Can't wait to see which ones make it into the game and how well they work. I think Widow Mines probably should get some kind of adjustment, just not as major as a lot of people are suggesting. I admit I'm using them quite a bit and they really do feel a little too strong. I've been pretty happy with Blizzard's subtle change approach so far, so I'm a little nervous about them potentially shaking things up too much. If you really want to remember it that way I guess. Blizzard has always done things their own way. StarCraft 2 and to some extent WoW after a point have really been the only times they've actively listened to community feedback at all. Did you see that video about the changes to SC1 over the course of it's life? D2 and WC3 had the same issues. Blizzard did their thing, the community disagreed about what was the best solution, and in the end we just lived with what Blizzard gave us which usually turned out to be pretty good. If anything Blizzard has changed for the better in regards to StarCraft at least. They acknowledge that they're listening and make changes that are at least somewhat in line with what the community says they want. The only things that I can really fault Blizzard for is that their games ship with a bit less polish though Blizzard does remain active and attentive at fixing/addressing concerns ... and their map team still sucks. The thing is, at least from my perspective, when Blizzard would go off in their own direction, I could look at the change they were making and immediately see the merit in the direction they're taking things. I would often have the reaction of first being outraged that they're doing the WRONG thing, think about it, realize it's just a different way to solve the problem, then embrace it for being a good change, even if it's not the change I would make. My issue with their changes and thoughts in dayvies post isn't anything like that because it's not even related to numbers or small differences in how to best fix a problem. It's that I (and most of the community) see major issues in the way the game works and Blizzard doesn't even consider these things problems. That's not just a difference of opinions on my armchair design vs their game-designer design, it's a difference in values down to the very core of "do I waste my money on their game or not?" and right now, the answer is "no". I gave the example of the Colossus, pretty much any poll anywhere that people vote on whether or not the colossus is a good unit comes in at least 3:1 in the negatives. If Blizzard wanted to show us how brilliant they were, they'd do something with the colossus that nobody was thinking about. Everybody wants to remove the unit, ye olde brilliant blizzard would fucking make it invisible or something of the sort and blow our minds. This is not just me bitching because I don't control the game. This is me getting so disillusioned with the direction Blizzard has taken their game that I am not even going to buy it, let alone play it for hours and hours and hours. Blizzard is dead. The company will be missed. | ||
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FeUerFlieGe
United States1193 Posts
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mynameisgreat11
599 Posts
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