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On December 04 2012 05:35 Vague wrote:
I think the medivac needs an ability to survive mines....or mines need to be nerfed...but something has to happen there....
Can you explain why? They are working as turrets, if you use them to defend banshees and medivacs. You have to be more careful and use much more scans in TvT, and encourages tactical and position play. Keep in mind they are 2 supply. I really dont know why does the mines induces this much hate. It makes this game much more enjoyable, mines force the enemy to be more careful and not just 1a.
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Looks amazing.
Just keep in mind that this is for Heart of the Swarm so we'll need to hold onto our hats and put up with a couple more months of terrible infestation in WoL!
Hopefully everything works out superbly.
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On December 04 2012 05:38 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 05:32 Breach_hu wrote:Before the holidays, just can wait!!!!!! On December 04 2012 04:17 leova wrote:
DT and Muta buffs are UNNECESSARY....
JUST
FIX
THE
FREAKIN
WIDOW
MINE
having it NOT hit Air/Cloaked (since its, duh, and underground unit with no detection abilities) would be an easy fix, and take care of a LOT of problems HotS is having now HotS is having much more problem with Vipers and Tempests than Widow Mines. Yes they are strong in early game, but both Z and P have tools to handle it, if they are used offensively. They are good defensively, just like Queens, MSC etc. But they are not contributing anything to the lategame at all, they are only supply sink right now as the game progresses. Well it shouldn't hit air at minimum (cloaked to) it makes it so terran can defend against that harassment even easier. I think they would have to be buffed or something to compensate maybe, but they do need to lose AA because they make mutalisks not viable right now.
Mutas are viable, but not the way they were in WoL. Yes mine can defend mutas, but if the zergs learn how to play againts them, how to play mutas againts them it would be fun. They can split, and i think mutas with fast overseers and kill mines before they are charged.
And againts zerg, especially with mech you need some unit, which can be used as AA, when thor is really bad unit to use againts mutas, because they are just terrible by cost on the ground againts SwarmHosts, Roaches etc. especially when a couple of vipers/corruptors in the air. Name any other AA coming from the factory, which is good againts mutas. By cost.
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On December 04 2012 04:55 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 03:09 MockHamill wrote:According to David Kim: Terran1. Redesign Thor ability/Raven seeker missile 2. Push early game Reaper a bit more 3. Hellbats better against melee units, not necessarily better vs. Ranged. 4. We'd really like to see more Medivac usage like we saw in Wings for a time in the past. Currently thinking on a cooldown based speed booster ability. 5. Buff Bio in the late game - with the addition of new units in HotS, we feel Bio in the late game is a bit weak. 6. Buff mech in general - we'd like to maybe test combining the vehicle and air upgrades at the armory. Zerg1. Hydralisk movement speed upgrade to Lair 2. Mutalisk buff to speed and/or acceleration 3. Ultralisk changed to be good vs. all ground 4. Nerf Infestor quite heavily 5. Make it easier to unburrow and reposition Swarm Hosts Protoss1. Redesign Voidray - we're currently thinking of having the player choose when to activate the charge. 2. Oracle - pulsar beam would now overlap too much with the new Voidray, so we'd like to change the Oracle to be more of a worker harasser. 3. Buff DTs not necessarily for the DT rush case, but to have DTs more often in the late game. 4. Nerf Vortex - we don't like how all or nothing this ability is in Wings, and with new unit adds, we feel we can remove or phase out this ability. 5. Tempest doesn't counter all late tech Zerg. We currently don't like how Zerg can't go Tier 3 units if Tempests are in play. 6. Make Voidray + Phoenix + Oracle combo a viable strat overall. These are our current thoughts for each of the races. And please remember none of these changes are final. Our hope is to move into the more fine tuning stages if this major patch turns out well. Source 1.1 Why only redesign the Thor ABILITY? 1.2 What for? 1.3 Something I came up with: What about a damage shield that burns everyone striking the Battle Hellion? 1.4 What is the point of MORE SPEED? Do you honestly think that casuals can control that adequately? 1.5 Hmmmm ... why not nerf the "other units"? 1.6 Combining the upgrades for air and mech doesnt buff mech ... it buffs airmech. 2.1 If Hydralisks get their speed buff you can remove the creep tumor to take away the map hack for Zerg. 2.2 WTF? Mutalisks are fast already ... and look at 1.4 More speed doesnt make the game better ... only less controlled. 2.3 Zerg needs more units with "bonus damage" OR that stupid concept needs to be removed because it is actually "limited damage" 2.4 How? 2.5 Why? A cloaked "free unit generator" isnt good enough and it has to be really mobile as well? Makes no sense at all. 3.1 When to activate the charge? ALWAYS! ASAP! ... If the charge can be kept up only for X seconds it is a nerf and not a buff. 3.2 Why not scrap the whole Oracle because it does jobs which other flying units (Phoenix) are already doing? 3.3 Easy ... just introduce a 12 unit selection limit and force units to spread out while moving. No need to fiddle around with unit stats or timings, just reduce the unit density from "ridiculously high" to "reasonably low and HARD TO INCREASE". 3.4 Wow ... all or nothing is bad? You are catching on fast! ... NOT. How about all the other "100% effects" like bonus damage, Blink, Forcefield, Fungal, Baneling-rightclick-on-a-Planetary-Fortress? 3.5 Sooo ... Tempest doesnt counter everything yet? Better buff it quick! 3.6 Why? As an excuse to not fix the Carrier problem?
1.4 Since when is balancing the game around casual players who can't control their units a good idea?
1.5 Buffing the one composition that doesn't work is much better than nerfing literally every other unit in the game.
3.5 That one was poorly worded, but he's saying that the change he's trying to make is that tempests will no longer counter all late game Zerg units, because he doesn't like it that they can't currently make T3 units because of the threat of the tempest.
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On December 04 2012 05:38 Evangelist wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 05:25 Decendos wrote:On December 04 2012 05:21 Evangelist wrote:On December 04 2012 05:09 Virid wrote:On December 04 2012 05:03 Evangelist wrote:On December 04 2012 04:17 leova wrote:
DT and Muta buffs are UNNECESSARY....
JUST
FIX
THE
FREAKIN
WIDOW
MINE
having it NOT hit Air/Cloaked (since its, duh, and underground unit with no detection abilities) would be an easy fix, and take care of a LOT of problems HotS is having now The Widow Mine is fine. If you think the Widow Mine is a harsh drop defence you should play against Infestors in WoL. Now that is a comically imbalanced situation. "Oh, hey, by the way. Here's a unit that's faster than your drop vehicle which can not only root your unit while doing damage, but prevent it from dropping entirely, nuke anything it actually dropped and if that wasn't enough, it can kill it off with spawned, free units BEFORE IT CAN EVEN LEAVE. Your post is garbage. You didn't even respond to him. No one here is arguing about Infestors being op or not. Take your whining elsewhere. What exactly is the point of responding to someone who claims something is broken when it manifestly isn't? So you can't blindly harass a terran base by clicking A somewhere behind their mineral line anymore and expect to get away with it. Tough titties. A zerg in particular has no leaway in this argument because their overlord and creep spread when done well gives them TOTAL MAP VISION. All of a sudden, when your flock of mutalisks can't just waltz into a base and snipe off four or five scvs before running away, this is a bad thing? Welcome to the life of every terran since 2010, when the "muta flock" timing which basically totally shut down drop play has been replaced by the "any number of infestors sat around a spine crawler" timing. Note, I am only bringing this up in response to this idea that the Widow Mine in its current, useless past 12 minutes form is in any way "OP". This is a static defense which fires once every 40 seconds which I have to infest gas, minerals and SUPPLY into. It should pack a punch. It should punish lazy players. If you die to it, that is what you are. Lazy. Stop being lazy and pay attention to your harassment instead of just clicking behind a mineral line and only paying attention when the computer screams at you about the hive cluster being under attack and you see a bit of red around your green. Even as a shitty Gold terran I still need to be careful about where I drop. The number of times I've seen a zerg or a protoss just take 10 supply of units and click somewhere behind the mineral line - well it's about bloody time you were punished for it. dont call people lazy and want a 0 apm safe vs everything mine. thats just...well just think before you post. but had to laugh that terran were struggling since 2010 vs zerg. 60% winrate at that times was really hard for terrans lol. the mine cost too much supply but it shutting down all DT/banshee/muta/dropplay for basically free is retarded. It's not for "free". It costs supply. It costs minerals and gas. It costs the same supply as the bloody DT itself! You tell me why I should have to put down detection everywhere my Widow Mines are so their range 5, 40s cooldown attack can actually do what they are supposed to do. "Oh, is there a turret in the middle of nowhere I see? I WONDER WHAT THAT IS." I can maybe get some of the arguments that it makes early game defence at a ramp unnecessary against DTs, which I must admit I agree with. However, removing it altogether? Absolute nonsense. If you're committing supply to a harass and I've committed supply to a defence, then the onus is on you to avoid the defence. For protoss, there are no less than 3 or so different ways you can go about doing this, not to mention taking advantage of the fact that the bloody thing fires once every 40s. That's 40s of unmitigated harassment you have. Have fun with it.
first of all: it kills at least 1 DT/muta/banshee/dropship which is retarded because it AT LEAST kills 4-5 times the gas your opponent invested. and that is the absolute minimum.
and lol: if you want to burrow your mines in the middle of nowhere to get off lucky hits thats your problem. at base defense its no problem to burrow the mine and build a turret beside of it.
you just want your easy good vs everything very cheap mine. that is the reason it has to cost 2 supply. and that is the reason it sucks lategame. so make it worse vs cloak and air and buff their supply to 1 or 0,5. easy fix.
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Maybe they can save Sc2 afterall :D
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Half of those ideas don't sound all that good even in theory.
And I can't see the overall direction in which the game is heading.
I hope Blizzard has a better overall plan than throwing random things out and seeing what sticks.
The only good thing is that at least for now they haven't fallen for the widow mine hysteria.
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Sounds insanely good. But DON'T buff Mutalisks. They're already great as they are currently, I think, even in HotS.
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On December 04 2012 05:54 Bahajinbo wrote:
Sounds insanely good. But DON'T buff Mutalisks. They're already great as they are currently, I think, even in HotS.
lol wut
No, definetly not.
They are totally destroyed by stargate openers (oracle timewarp + phoenix range ? lol)
They cant do anything to a bio terran without doing a gimmickly opening
If infestors are being nerf, zerg needs other way of playing the game. And fast unit is what zerg players wants. 
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This sounds amazing, I hope they do a good job with bio and don't screw up making it too good in the midgame.
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On December 04 2012 05:58 Insoleet wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 05:54 Bahajinbo wrote:
Sounds insanely good. But DON'T buff Mutalisks. They're already great as they are currently, I think, even in HotS. lol wut No, definetly not. They are totally destroyed by stargate openers (oracle timewarp + phoenix range ? lol) They cant do anything to a bio terran without doing a gimmickly opening If infestors are being nerf, zerg needs other way of playing the game. And fast unit is what zerg players wants.
Time-warp doesn't even affect air.
What dose everyone make that mistake?
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Those changes sound very promising. I really can´t wait to test them.
I really hope the Thor becomes awesome.
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Looks like a bigger step than usual.
I LIKE IT.
Don't be afraid to change things up Blizzard.
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On December 04 2012 06:00 pmp10 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 05:58 Insoleet wrote:On December 04 2012 05:54 Bahajinbo wrote:
Sounds insanely good. But DON'T buff Mutalisks. They're already great as they are currently, I think, even in HotS. lol wut No, definetly not. They are totally destroyed by stargate openers (oracle timewarp + phoenix range ? lol) They cant do anything to a bio terran without doing a gimmickly opening If infestors are being nerf, zerg needs other way of playing the game. And fast unit is what zerg players wants. Time-warp doesn't even affect air. What dose everyone make that mistake?
Probably because it's silly an unintuitive and time warp should affect air. Oh well.
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Now we just have to wair and see when it happens...
Though I'm still hoping for a Forcefield and maybe a Warpgate change it will be great to see such ehavy changes.
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On December 04 2012 03:36 Markwerf wrote:Terran 1 very good, hope they get something nice 2 i feel it is fine as it is, already quite good in tvt / tvz 3 what? hellbats already stomp zerglings too hard.. Don't screw over TvZ because of your stupid idea's to change TvP into mech wars 4 medivac usage is already pretty big but i guess this is fine 5 good idea but vague 6 combing the upgrades seems alright but makes mech too strong really, i don't get why they think mech is weak in HotS.. it's already rediculous except in TvP missing a change to battlecruiser.. missing a radical change to widow mine, stupid unit now zerg 1. very good, better yet just combine range and speed upgrade. 2. seems fine 3. definately needs a buff, the new ability is just terrible too. Way too slow, often doesn't work well and spreads the units while ultra's depend on splash.. 4. also ok with me, i'd like to see fungal back to longer duration again making it a nice tactical spell instead and only getting a few infestors instead of the spamfest it is now 5. ok i guess protoss 1. voidray really needs a more drastic change then this to have some real use since it's so similar to the tempest. Something along the lines of a speed buff or build time buff i'd say 2 good idea, oracle is still crap now. Please give back detection to it. 3 good move, merge with templar archives please 4 very good, nerf the mothership so it's useless and just a newbie unit 5 haven't experienced this myself but must also admit haven't had many ZvP go beyond the lair swarm host stuff 6 fine as long as it doesn't always become the same combination (ie you always go void -> phoenix -> a few oracle). There should be differentation when to choose which unit missing changes to the mothership core, i hate it's design now. Too strong of a deterrent against midgame terran/zerg pushes. "free" vision up the ramp is still breaking blink rushes as well which arguably makes it even harder to expand in PvP than before.. Overall many good motives but almost no good concrete idea's and he's missing out on some of the most important issues I think (Msc and widow mine). I have little confidence they fix many of these issues quickly, given how they've been doing so far..
Mech isn't good vs a Zerg that knows what they are doing... And Mech has no answer to Brood Lord/Infestor/Corruptor
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Buff DTs?! Sounds good to me! :D
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I keep looking and hoping that Blizzard pulls their heads out of their asses and fixes the game, but they're just too damned committed to their bullshit, gimmicky units.
-I like that they're playing with the Thor/Raven, but why the fuck do they want Bio to be viable for late-game Terran? That shit is not pretty, it's not cute, it takes away all the beautiful things that made BW terran so good. The simplest way I can put it is that even in WoL, mech is fine. The biggest problem facing mech in WoL is bio, nothing else. If bio is viable, mech will never be viable, end of story. Why can't Blizzard understand this simple principle?
-Medivac speed burst... I just... I don't even know where to begin... Fucking horrible idea.
-Tie Reapers to Widow Mines and be done with it. This makes them important all game long in all Terran MUs and allows them to keep on with their harassment stats and not be OP in straight-up fights while being an important part of every Terran game.
I think that's about it for Terran. Stop worrying about bio and start worrying about the Tank for fuck's sake.
-Hydra speed is nice, but it doesn't solve the problems with the unit. They need more range, or lower cost, or both.
-Muta/Ultra changes are nice. Would be happy to see core Zerg units become core again.
-Nerf the shit out of Fungal plz. Give back a useful version of NP, that spell was a LOT more interesting all along.
-Swarm Host, don't care.
At least Blizz seems to have an idea of how to make Zerg more interesting. Let's see if they don't fuck the race in the ass like they did back in WoL beta.
Void Ray - Make VR attack add a stacking -1 armor to the target being attacked instead of it's stupid damage bonus it currently has, then re-balance stats to be decent per-cost at straight-up fighting without the OP charged bullshit. Problem solved.
-Get rid of the Colossus, make the Tempest the new Colossus if you really want, but please, for the love of god, get rid of the Colossus, even if it's just on principle.
-I don't think DT has a problem with viability in late-game outside of cost, but that has been a complaint since day 1. DTs should be 150/100. Problem solved.
Overall, these notes make me sad for the future of the game.
Blizzard builds up these issues like they're hard things. This is all shit we've been complaining about since the beginning of the game. This shit is not new, it's not hard to see, it's fucking obvious.
Worse yet, Blizzard remains willfully ignorant to other glaring issues like the sucky state of the Siege Tank in TvP, Colossus, Force Field and Warp Gate in general, and the general lack of brilliance in MOST of the HotS units.
When pre-orders went up last month, I didn't buy HotS, and this is making me think I made the right choice.
I will pour a beer tonight for the Blizzard of olde. A homie like that deserves better than to have it's name smashed into the ground like we're seeing today.
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Good ideas overall I think. Can't wait to see which ones make it into the game and how well they work.
I think Widow Mines probably should get some kind of adjustment, just not as major as a lot of people are suggesting. I admit I'm using them quite a bit and they really do feel a little too strong.
I've been pretty happy with Blizzard's subtle change approach so far, so I'm a little nervous about them potentially shaking things up too much.
On December 04 2012 06:08 Jermstuddog wrote:
I will pour a beer tonight for the Blizzard of olde. A homie like that deserves better than to have it's name smashed into the ground like we're seeing today.
If you really want to remember it that way I guess. Blizzard has always done things their own way. StarCraft 2 and to some extent WoW after a point have really been the only times they've actively listened to community feedback at all. Did you see that video about the changes to SC1 over the course of it's life? D2 and WC3 had the same issues. Blizzard did their thing, the community disagreed about what was the best solution, and in the end we just lived with what Blizzard gave us which usually turned out to be pretty good.
If anything Blizzard has changed for the better in regards to StarCraft at least. They acknowledge that they're listening and make changes that are at least somewhat in line with what the community says they want. The only things that I can really fault Blizzard for is that their games ship with a bit less polish though Blizzard does remain active and attentive at fixing/addressing concerns ... and their map team still sucks.
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On December 04 2012 03:12 spbelky wrote:
O Dayvie, such good intentions. But does he have the tools and knowledge to pull it off?
This is a good question to ask.
The next question I would ask: Why now? We have been asking for these things for SO LONG. I guess when Blizzard realizes that it stands to lose a bunch of Terran and Protoss players (I have no intention of buying HotS unless I see some dramatic changes), they ostensibly change their act.
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EPT
