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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. |
On November 06 2012 03:53 AKomrade wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2012 02:57 BeholdOblivion wrote:
Am I the only one who believes that Zerg and Protoss just rewards bad macro in some sense? This rolls into the idea that Zerg (mostly) and Protoss have such a high room for error. I'm beginning to think less so for Protoss, but this MLG and the past few days of GSL, I've seen zergs routinely throw away 4-5 full energy infestors (I'm looking at you Life) and when the terran tries to punish it, it's as if nothing happened. In fact, by the time the terran gets to the zerg to try and punish, he has already replenished and added additional infestors. No, you're not. I've been ranting in my head about it since beta and others like orb have posted repeatedly about it on the TL forums.
How is that different from killing some toss army, stimming ahead, getting two stormed and having to pull back cause of injured/dead units and uber fast warpins?
Our unit that is supposed to do that controlling area stuff is the worst: the siege tank. Has least mobility, least damage, and has 3 seconds time before it goes from mobile to damaging. Siege tanks are way too expensive for the damage they do. I would have preferred a high templar, or infestor, which is super mobile, sneaky (burrow) and can deal with large group of small units (marines, lings, zealots) with fungal, with large units with NP, and with mech/ gateway based armies by infested terran. Compare that to the siege tank which is useless against toss, super immobile, more apm intensive (siege unsiege) and makes less damage, and you will see why tanks need buffing.
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On November 06 2012 13:44 Ver wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2012 02:57 BeholdOblivion wrote:
Am I the only one who believes that Zerg and Protoss just rewards bad macro in some sense? This rolls into the idea that Zerg (mostly) and Protoss have such a high room for error. I'm beginning to think less so for Protoss, but this MLG and the past few days of GSL, I've seen zergs routinely throw away 4-5 full energy infestors (I'm looking at you Life) and when the terran tries to punish it, it's as if nothing happened. In fact, by the time the terran gets to the zerg to try and punish, he has already replenished and added additional infestors. It actually is really important that people recognize this; it's not a balance whine, it's simply a fact of TvZ/TvP and is important to incorporate when evaluating scenarios, as you cannot simply say: well both of us made 2 major blunders of the same caliber, so it's roughly even or that I win a battle so now I'm ahead and can do what I want. Terran mistakes count for much much more than other races. In addition, it's far far more important that Terran build orders are executed absolutely perfectly compared to other races, as it changes the game completely. There are only two ways Terrans really win at the moment, outside of coinflipping or 11/11s: 1) Never make a major blunder (or at least until you have massive leads; this is how Taeja won so many TvZs) 2) Force the game into super chaotic scenarios where the opponent plays significantly worse For example, in TvP if the Terran loses a battle from an even scenario on 4+ bases, he is either massively behind or its game over as Protoss remaxes almost instantly, Terran has no/few ghosts and will likely lose medivacs/energy on them and his units take too long to make. On the other hand if Protoss loses a battle, the Terran almost always has to retreat and remake their army instead of pressing on (at most killing one nearby expo), as if you do you run into templars and full warpins that decimate your weakened army (Taeja/MC in NASL for example). This is why in lategame TvP's the Terran often has to win 3-6 big battles in a row in order to win the game, while the Protoss needs at most 1 or 2 victories. However, in the early-midgame the situation is reversed usually. If the Protoss loses key units or is slightly out of position, you can generally ride that advantage into an auto win or a large lead (which then often translates into an auto win usually by ramming him to death). A lot of the successful Terrans this MLG really capitalized on this (as in mlg players naturally play worse due to distractions/nerves). Flash/Bomber/Heart all won their matches vs Protosses on 2 or 3 base play. In TvZ it is much worse and is completely one-sided, especially vs mech. If you ever lose your first army with mech from an even position, even if he only has some units left, it's almost always game over. You can take Bomber vs Leenock on Cloud from this MLG. Anyone would think Bomber was massively ahead after killing Leenock's 4th/3rd, having his own 4th, and being up a bunch of supply, however, Leenock had some infestor/broodlord which gave Bomber no margin for error. One small mishap in battle and Leenock's deficit turned into a simple win. There was an open bracket game too of Binski vs Suppy where Binski was up 5 base to 3 and a good 40 supply but ended up losing despite his large lead because his vikings were clumped in 2 groups and his tanks were too far in the back to fire on the infestors. That one single mistake made the rest of the game irrelevant despite his lead and he lost despite being 5 base to (later) 4 the entire game. In other words, against Zerg, if he's on hive tech you are virtually never ahead enough that you can afford any mistakes and always must play with a do-or-die attitude. You have no leeway.
In an interview at MLG Thorzain said, that if both players play a perfect game in TvZ, Terran wins. It is obviously very speculative, but I tend to agree with that point and this is worth noting in addition to what Ver wrote. One mistake can very often cost you a game, but if you do not make a major mistake you win, even if your zerg opponent plays very well. This is why you have beasts like MVP or Taeja fare well in tournaments, but definitely less competitive foreigner tournamnets are dominated by Zerg and Protoss.
On November 06 2012 17:05 sieksdekciw wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2012 03:53 AKomrade wrote:On November 06 2012 02:57 BeholdOblivion wrote:
Am I the only one who believes that Zerg and Protoss just rewards bad macro in some sense? This rolls into the idea that Zerg (mostly) and Protoss have such a high room for error. I'm beginning to think less so for Protoss, but this MLG and the past few days of GSL, I've seen zergs routinely throw away 4-5 full energy infestors (I'm looking at you Life) and when the terran tries to punish it, it's as if nothing happened. In fact, by the time the terran gets to the zerg to try and punish, he has already replenished and added additional infestors. No, you're not. I've been ranting in my head about it since beta and others like orb have posted repeatedly about it on the TL forums. How is that different from killing some toss army, stimming ahead, getting two stormed and having to pull back cause of injured/dead units and uber fast warpins? Our unit that is supposed to do that controlling area stuff is the worst: the siege tank. Has least mobility, least damage, and has 3 seconds time before it goes from mobile to damaging. Siege tanks are way too expensive for the damage they do. I would have preferred a high templar, or infestor, which is super mobile, sneaky (burrow) and can deal with large group of small units (marines, lings, zealots) with fungal, with large units with NP, and with mech/ gateway based armies by infested terran. Compare that to the siege tank which is useless against toss, super immobile, more apm intensive (siege unsiege) and makes less damage, and you will see why tanks need buffing.
While I agree with the general tone of your post, calling spellcasters less APM intensive than siege tanks is a bit far fetched...
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It happened again, some guy went gas first 1 base, he then expanded and made a dozen roaches after killing my scout, i got a couple marauders, and teched to banshee, I lost it because I was trying to get my units unstuck from my sim city that was all screwed up out of panic at this point, he kept me on 1 base forever, when my second banshee was popping, i hadn't seen roaches for a while so i moved down with hellion marauder and found 20 banelings that were about to pop along with 15 or so roaches, they were faster than my marauders. I don't understand what I am supposed to be doing against cheesy zergs, especially early roach play. Tanks after banshee means you can't expand until 15 minutes and just die, is this not a problem for anyone else?
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On November 07 2012 13:31 U_G_L_Y wrote:
It happened again, some guy went gas first 1 base, he then expanded and made a dozen roaches after killing my scout, i got a couple marauders, and teched to banshee, I lost it because I was trying to get my units unstuck from my sim city that was all screwed up out of panic at this point, he kept me on 1 base forever, when my second banshee was popping, i hadn't seen roaches for a while so i moved down with hellion marauder and found 20 banelings that were about to pop along with 15 or so roaches, they were faster than my marauders. I don't understand what I am supposed to be doing against cheesy zergs, especially early roach play. Tanks after banshee means you can't expand until 15 minutes and just die, is this not a problem for anyone else?
Replay(s) and league please.
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Canada8157 Posts
Is it possible if someone can post the build that Flash used against protoss in MLG? Specifically, the build he used against grubby involving the quick 2 reactor and 1 tech lab on his barracks, and i believe against Naniwa in 1 of his games, aiming for a 100 supply push with 2 medivacs at around the 10:00 minute mark.
He seemed to have this entire build memorized up to the 100 supply mark, building everything at the exact same time, and the push demolishes the protoss if they do not open colossus. I checked the Liquipedia builds against protoss and could not find anything that goes that high up in supply.
If anyone can help it would be appreciated!
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On November 08 2012 11:01 Jer99 wrote:
Is it possible if someone can post the build that Flash used against protoss in MLG? Specifically, the build he used against grubby involving the quick 2 reactor and 1 tech lab on his barracks, and i believe against Naniwa in 1 of his games, aiming for a 100 supply push with 2 medivacs at around the 10:00 minute mark.
He seemed to have this entire build memorized up to the 100 supply mark, building everything at the exact same time, and the push demolishes the protoss if they do not open colossus. I checked the Liquipedia builds against protoss and could not find anything that goes that high up in supply.
If anyone can help it would be appreciated!
I believe that was just a variant of the standard 10:00 2 medivac push. You generally don't want to be following a build order that goes all the way up to 100 supply.
http://www.gosubuilds.com/terran-build-orders-2/terran-vs-protoss/tvp-bombers-build/
Here's a link to the build. IIRC, you should be able to hit around 100 supply considering your macro is on point. It's a fairly easy build to memorize, too. Took me about an entire day's worth of games to get it memorized.
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Say my opponent is going for standard zealot/Hts/Archon/Colossus, how many tech lab and reactor I should have in the late game? Thanks.
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On November 07 2012 16:39 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2012 13:31 U_G_L_Y wrote:
It happened again, some guy went gas first 1 base, he then expanded and made a dozen roaches after killing my scout, i got a couple marauders, and teched to banshee, I lost it because I was trying to get my units unstuck from my sim city that was all screwed up out of panic at this point, he kept me on 1 base forever, when my second banshee was popping, i hadn't seen roaches for a while so i moved down with hellion marauder and found 20 banelings that were about to pop along with 15 or so roaches, they were faster than my marauders. I don't understand what I am supposed to be doing against cheesy zergs, especially early roach play. Tanks after banshee means you can't expand until 15 minutes and just die, is this not a problem for anyone else? Replay(s) and league please.
I can't actually imagine this working in anything above Platinum
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In TvZ, why don't people do mech transition like in BW. I know they're different game but the idea (expanding behind the bio pressure) should still apply right? You can even make use of the add-ons instead of building everything again.
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Mainly because you can expand safely using hellion/banshee.
But people do sometimes open bio and then transition, mostly 2 rax, but sometimes other variations.
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Hello. Diamond Terran here. i need some help with TvP. I can't even remember the last time i actually beat a protoss player in a macro game.
here are some replays
Replay 1
+ Show Spoiler +http://drop.sc/273402
Game is pretty even during the start but i cannot seem to kill the protoss off and he waltzes over me
Replay 2
+ Show Spoiler +http://drop.sc/273403
Being a little more balsy in this match and i make some errors but deal some damage aswell. doesnt matter in the end
Replay 3
+ Show Spoiler +http://drop.sc/273404
I take a big supply lead and decide to kill him with it. I get mopped up by gateway units and lose the game
I try to attack as often as possible just to get a better feel for my unit's strength. I'm quite new to Terran still and greatly enjoying and learning both TvZ and TvT. However, i've hit a bit of a brick wall in TvP and i'm not really learning anything anymore.
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On November 08 2012 14:49 Whatson wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2012 16:39 TheDwf wrote:On November 07 2012 13:31 U_G_L_Y wrote:
It happened again, some guy went gas first 1 base, he then expanded and made a dozen roaches after killing my scout, i got a couple marauders, and teched to banshee, I lost it because I was trying to get my units unstuck from my sim city that was all screwed up out of panic at this point, he kept me on 1 base forever, when my second banshee was popping, i hadn't seen roaches for a while so i moved down with hellion marauder and found 20 banelings that were about to pop along with 15 or so roaches, they were faster than my marauders. I don't understand what I am supposed to be doing against cheesy zergs, especially early roach play. Tanks after banshee means you can't expand until 15 minutes and just die, is this not a problem for anyone else? Replay(s) and league please. I can't actually imagine this working in anything above Platinum
Thank you for your valuable contribution to the forum. You have gigantic e-peen. I realize that I play at a VERY low level when I face zergs that take early gas, that is why I am asking for help instead of whining about balance. Despite this being the internet, I am honestly too embarassed now to post the replayS now, and I was intentionally slightly less bad-mannered in the most recent one just so I could post it and get some help.
I am already raging just as much as I was 2 days ago thinking about the supply blocks and stockpiling money because I was staring at my base each of the last dozen times I faced something similar because I didn't know what to do.
PS, Ugly.731, I'm diamond and I know I am really really bad at this game and anyone can be Master in 100 games and I'm just a retard and you are amazing. Is that the reaction you were looking for?
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No, it's more along the lines of you need to post a replay. You should scout gas before expo, and know some sort of pressure is coming. It just goes hand it hand. He did come off as a douche bag, but that's the elitism that everyone here has with the 'I am masters' line.
But just you can't go greedy openings when you scout gas pool, pool gas before hatch. You have to tweek your builds to cater to that aggressive style opening. You won't get proper help unless we can see your game, and what you scouted and reacted to.
No one cares about your BM or whatever. If you want, I'll post a slew of replays where I belittle or attack another player for cheating, or hacking, or being some mean name for 10-30 minutes. Games I lose to 4 gates. Games I lose to shit I know is coming. Games I throw away.
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Russian Federation101 Posts
How to deal dmg against temlr tech protoss bec if he has good spread of hts then ut s hard to snipe them or emp at the same time and drops are pretty much a gamble if protoss will notice drop comin and feedback it. Plus it s easier for protoss to expand bec storm +canon+warp in zealots is rly good to defend when u drop or or try run by.
If i try maxed out fights then he ll have adv bec of warp ins mechanics even if ll stay on same number of bases
So how can i be offensive ag templar tech
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Hey there everyone.
First time using this forum as i have decided to get help in order to help me climb the ladder.
Im a gold ranked terran on the sea server who is constantly vsing plat players (and on a bad day even the odd diamond player for some reason) yet i just cant promote, i think i'm just not winning enough yet.
Atm the match up i am looking for help for is my TvZ. I do a three rax pressure build that aims to stop the zerg macro as i fail to keep up with strong macro plat players late game while i expand behind it and aim to equal zerg in expansions. This build aims to hit between 7-8 minutes (depending on map and scouting etc) I want to keep doing this build as it abusing the strength of terran tier one early in the game. Now if the zerg goes roach to stop me, i tend to win about 80% + of the time, If he goes muta's i win if i scan the spire while it is building, However i always loose if he just goes mass zergling baneling.
Here is some links to my most recent matches where i loose to zergling banneling plays.
Loosing to Zerg/baneling #1
Loosing to Zerg/baneling #2
Loosing to zergling/baneling #3
Not my best matches but should be good enough to see where i am going wrong or see what i can do better.
For reference here is a match where my build works. its a bit drawn out but it shows why it works even when i don't straight up kill zerg in the first attacks and they stick to roaches and muta's
Wining against Roach/Muta #1
Now i know the obviously mistakes like the baneling landmines and such, im just looking for stratgey for my build, a way to effectively transition into something that can continue to put pressure on. remember im gold so my micro is poor at best. So hopefully i get some good advice.
cheers anyone who puts effort in to help me.
EDIT: Would of made this its own thread but i just joined the forums and cant be bothered waiting three more days to be able to make one and endure loosing over and over to this.
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Russian Federation101 Posts
AlaxWayLaxed New Zealand. November 09 2012 16:24. Posts 1 PM Profile Quote #
Hey there everyone.
First time using this forum as i have decided to get help in order to help me climb the ladder.
Im a gold ranked terran on the sea server who is constantly vsing plat players (and on a bad day even the odd diamond player for some reason) yet i just cant promote, i think i'm just not winning enough yet.
Atm the match up i am looking for help for is my TvZ. I do a three rax pressure build that aims to stop the zerg macro as i fail to keep up with strong macro plat players late game while i expand behind it and aim to equal zerg in expansions. This build aims to hit between 7-8 minutes (depending on map and scouting etc) I want to keep doing this build as it abusing the strength of terran tier one early in the game. Now if the zerg goes roach to stop me, i tend to win about 80% + of the time, If he goes muta's i win if i scan the spire while it is building, However i always loose if he just goes mass zergling baneling.
Here is some links to my most recent matches where i loose to zergling banneling plays.
Loosing to Zerg/baneling #1
Loosing to Zerg/baneling #2
Loosing to zergling/baneling #3
Not my best matches but should be good enough to see where i am going wrong or see what i can do better.
For reference here is a match where my build works.
Wining against Roach/Muta #1
Now i know the obviously mistakes like the baneling landmines and such, im just looking for stratgey for my build, a way to effectively transition into something that can continue to put pressure on. remember im gold so my micro is poor at best. So hopefully i get some good advice.
cheers anyone who puts effort in to help me.
EDIT: Would of made this its own thread but i just joined the forums and cant be bothered waiting three more days to be able to make one and endure loosing over and over to this.
Well i ddon t have time atm to watch replays bt from your description i assume u go 1 rax expo into 3 rax marine pressure. This is pretty safe build ag zerg however it doesnt suggest any sort of heavy pressure with marines because lings with speed can catch u off guard and with addition of banelings it ll be hard for u to micro without stim.
Ofc there s a way to deal with it. First of all u should be scouting properly and make your decisions correctly(watch streams or play a lot of games to get your game sense in place). In case u see him rushing to ling bane then u have to be rather safe until u have 3 things done:
1)stim
2)medvacks
3)siedge tanks
1) u need stim to have proper micro and mobility around the map. In case u see banelings split marines or in case of pure zerlings
2)Having medivacks gives u ability to harass zerg and give u freedom on the map as he is running around after drops and u can take some position and in case marines are in danger u can easily evacuate them
3)The last component secures u a position which is hard for zerg to engage
Therefore until these 3 components are present it s better not to move out or u risk getting your army in bad position and lose advantage u got
U can move out with pure marines without upgrades only if he has no speed or u re trying to hit some timing like combat shields push
And 3rd component might not be needed if u re confident in marine splits which i think isn t the case.
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"Well i ddon t have time atm to watch replays bt from your description i assume u go 1 rax expo into 3 rax marine pressure. This is pretty safe build ag zerg however it doesnt suggest any sort of heavy pressure with marines because lings with speed can catch u off guard and with addition of banelings it ll be hard for u to micro without stim. "
No, i go three rax, no expo, generally 2 tech labs and one reactor and always get concussive shells and combat sheilds to enable me to at least try and stutter step micro against his intial zlings. generally if i kill a tech building/hatch or all his queens i put an expo down straight away, each game is different as if he does not build spine crawlers i continue to pressure and stop him from making drones by forcing zlings. You will see my stim timings in my replays if i get it in them.
reason for no expo is i generally get a larger army at that timing so your feedback past the watch pro's and game sense is not really applicable to my current build (see game one to see the point about higher tech such as tanks)
Some maps like cloud kingdom i need to find new builds due to overlord placement making it impossible to catch him off guard with my attack and constantly hitting wall of spines making it impossible to do any real dmg to the zerg macro but on other maps i nearly always scan his expo to see his defenses to decide if i can engage and deal the damage needed or not.
EDIT: i go two tech labs against zerg to get a high maruader count in order to try and soak up the baneling hits and it counters any roach play hard seen in my roach match i posted.
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Russian Federation101 Posts
well u see your build souds something ppl don t do these days. If u consider no expo then your attack will come rly quick but it s mostly depends on zeg reaction. Consider that u get those high marad counts(2 at a time) u ll have rather small marine count which makes u vulnerable to mass lings(maraduers don t do well ag lings).
But other major factor is zerg scouting u. Many maps designed so that u can put ovelord at places to spot pushes coming(Daybreak, Cloud KIngdom), because of that u meet a wall of spines probably. U can ofc try to go around but it ll delay your attack by like 20-30 secs however it s almost instant loss if he scouts u bec he has time to react.
Oh and concussive shells are generally useless bec they don t help much ag speedlings. 1 thing they can be usefull ag are banelings and roaches,but it won t change the fact that u ll simply die to mass lings. therefore u better get a higher marine count in case he goes ling bane and rely on your splitting. in case of roaches don t change your build.
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On November 09 2012 16:24 AlaxWayLaxed wrote:Hey there everyone. First time using this forum as i have decided to get help in order to help me climb the ladder. Im a gold ranked terran on the sea server who is constantly vsing plat players (and on a bad day even the odd diamond player for some reason) yet i just cant promote, i think i'm just not winning enough yet. Atm the match up i am looking for help for is my TvZ. I do a three rax pressure build that aims to stop the zerg macro as i fail to keep up with strong macro plat players late game while i expand behind it and aim to equal zerg in expansions. This build aims to hit between 7-8 minutes (depending on map and scouting etc) I want to keep doing this build as it abusing the strength of terran tier one early in the game. Now if the zerg goes roach to stop me, i tend to win about 80% + of the time, If he goes muta's i win if i scan the spire while it is building, However i always loose if he just goes mass zergling baneling. Here is some links to my most recent matches where i loose to zergling banneling plays. Loosing to Zerg/baneling #1Loosing to Zerg/baneling #2Loosing to zergling/baneling #3Not my best matches but should be good enough to see where i am going wrong or see what i can do better. For reference here is a match where my build works. its a bit drawn out but it shows why it works even when i don't straight up kill zerg in the first attacks and they stick to roaches and muta's Wining against Roach/Muta #1Now i know the obviously mistakes like the baneling landmines and such, im just looking for stratgey for my build, a way to effectively transition into something that can continue to put pressure on. remember im gold so my micro is poor at best. So hopefully i get some good advice. cheers anyone who puts effort in to help me. EDIT: Would of made this its own thread but i just joined the forums and cant be bothered waiting three more days to be able to make one and endure loosing over and over to this.
The main problem with your build is that once you've put down three barracks plus addons, you have no means to afford constant unit production and an expansion. In other words, when you expand, it's a result of bad macro (usually it's a matter of you getting supply blocked). Consequently, you make it really obvious to your enemy what's going on... all he has to do is scout whether there is a base at your natural, and since there isn't, he knows that he just has to hold the initial push to be ahead. At this point, the correct response is to put down half a dozen spines, which shuts your build down hard. With your opening, you have to do damage with your initial push, else you're basically screwed.
In your replays, I was mostly amazed at the awful reactions of your opponents. Only the guy in the third replay responds well, and I'd say that you can expect this kind of play to become more prevalent once you make your way up the ladder. Thus, the only thing I can really recommend to you is to get another opening that puts a little more focus on being able to win a game after the 10 minute mark.
However, for the build you're running with at the moment, and which you said you wanted to utilize in the future, the most obvious fix would be to open rax before gas, not the other way around. You neither need so much gas so early on, nor are you able to spend it; at the same time, you're constantly starving for minerals. Secondly, you should research stim much earlier, at least before concussive shells, in my opinion even before life shield (especially if you're going marauder heavy). Furthermore, you need to deny him from scouting your nonexistant natural. This might not even be possible all the times if he places his overlords smartly, but you should still try because your build more or less depends on it.
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EPT
