EPTThe Terran Help Me Thread - Page 393
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Mali__Slon
Senegal163 Posts
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On November 04 2012 22:50 Mali__Slon wrote: I am started going rax fast expand in pvt, and i am doing relatively good, but have lot of trouble dealing when toss is extremly aggressive. What are some common timings that I should be aware, so i can react properly (for ex. if in tvz i know his muta will be later than 11 min, if he takes his third on 6-7 minute mark). When you scout with your initial SCV scout (which is generally a 13 scout after depot), you want to make sure that 1) he isn't cheesing, 2) the cyber core goes down before a chronoboosted zealot. If he's cheesing, you immediately want to wall off your ramp and put a bunker up. If he's getting a FAST zealot before core, you want to avoid placing your CC on the low ground. After this, the key scout times are an SCV poke at 5:30 for expansion or 4-gate, a marine shove (about 10 marines) at ~6:00, assuming a 4-gate isn't coming, and generally a scan between the main and the natural at 6:30-7:10. The SCV poke allows you to know if an all-in is coming, allowing you to build an additional bunker at the natural, maybe one in the main in case of warp prism 4-gate or a blink stalker all-in (SCV should also scout the 3rd base for a fast triple nexus). The marine shove allows you to clear out stalkers and the watchtowers and gain map control; many times this shove will be accompanied by an SCV scout to see if you can poke up into protoss natural. The scan at 6:30 comes at a critical time in protoss tech where they have to choose between double forge, fast robo bay, or DTs; this scan allows you to get ready for whatever threat is coming your way. Hope this helps! | ||
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erw
Norway284 Posts
i go 1rax fe into 3 rax into getting stomped by anything they have what im asking for is for example when you take your third, start upgrades, etc | ||
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Mali__Slon
Senegal163 Posts
On November 04 2012 23:57 SC2John wrote: When you scout with your initial SCV scout (which is generally a 13 scout after depot), you want to make sure that 1) he isn't cheesing, 2) the cyber core goes down before a chronoboosted zealot. If he's cheesing, you immediately want to wall off your ramp and put a bunker up. If he's getting a FAST zealot before core, you want to avoid placing your CC on the low ground. After this, the key scout times are an SCV poke at 5:30 for expansion or 4-gate, a marine shove (about 10 marines) at ~6:00, assuming a 4-gate isn't coming, and generally a scan between the main and the natural at 6:30-7:10. The SCV poke allows you to know if an all-in is coming, allowing you to build an additional bunker at the natural, maybe one in the main in case of warp prism 4-gate or a blink stalker all-in (SCV should also scout the 3rd base for a fast triple nexus). The marine shove allows you to clear out stalkers and the watchtowers and gain map control; many times this shove will be accompanied by an SCV scout to see if you can poke up into protoss natural. The scan at 6:30 comes at a critical time in protoss tech where they have to choose between double forge, fast robo bay, or DTs; this scan allows you to get ready for whatever threat is coming your way. Hope this helps! It is quite helpful, ty. Is there any definitive sign that he is going blink stalkers, for exp. if i see 2-3 sentries no fast blink my come? | ||
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U_G_L_Y
United States516 Posts
On November 04 2012 23:57 SC2John wrote: When you scout with your initial SCV scout (which is generally a 13 scout after depot), you want to make sure that 1) he isn't cheesing, 2) the cyber core goes down before a chronoboosted zealot. If he's cheesing, you immediately want to wall off your ramp and put a bunker up. If he's getting a FAST zealot before core, you want to avoid placing your CC on the low ground. After this, the key scout times are an SCV poke at 5:30 for expansion or 4-gate, a marine shove (about 10 marines) at ~6:00, assuming a 4-gate isn't coming, and generally a scan between the main and the natural at 6:30-7:10. The SCV poke allows you to know if an all-in is coming, allowing you to build an additional bunker at the natural, maybe one in the main in case of warp prism 4-gate or a blink stalker all-in (SCV should also scout the 3rd base for a fast triple nexus). The marine shove allows you to clear out stalkers and the watchtowers and gain map control; many times this shove will be accompanied by an SCV scout to see if you can poke up into protoss natural. The scan at 6:30 comes at a critical time in protoss tech where they have to choose between double forge, fast robo bay, or DTs; this scan allows you to get ready for whatever threat is coming your way. Hope this helps! Scouting for a 4 gate at 5:30 makes you dead. You will have a 30% complete bunker by the time it hits. If there is no expansion at 5 minutes, scanning at 7:10 will tell you that there are stalkers blinking into your main in about 15 seconds and you should have made those tech labs a minute ago, or there are DTs in your natural right now. If there is an expansion, scanning to see whether he is going double forge, robo, or templar tech is irrelevant because you are going to get stim, combat shield, and medivacs before adding a ghost academy, or second starport either way. IMO: SCV scout after the barracks is done, leave protoss base before a stalker pops out (4 minutes unless he skipped making a zealot or chronoboosted the gateway heavily) hide this SCV and run it back into the base so that it arrives at 5 minutes. (Depending on where he is hiding, I send him at about 4:45. If it is a 4 gate or blink all-in, you should see it plain as day because his units will be at your natural protecting the probe and the pylon it just made so you can give yourself a tour of his base. You should have just enough time to prepare for either. If he has his zealot and stalker guarding the top of his ramp (or a cannon) he is usually up to some sort of shenanigans worthy of a scan at your earliest possible convenience. If he expanded early, you can scout his macro build tech path and decide how you are going to react when your medivacs pop out between 10-11 minutes by using your whole army. By not wasting scans and by not losing mining time by scouting too early, you will have many more marines with this push. | ||
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U_G_L_Y
United States516 Posts
On November 05 2012 00:58 Mali__Slon wrote: It is quite helpful, ty. Is there any definitive sign that he is going blink stalkers, for exp. if i see 2-3 sentries no fast blink my come? I have never faced a 1 base blink build that made a sentry at the start | ||
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Mali__Slon
Senegal163 Posts
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sieksdekciw
240 Posts
On November 04 2012 20:43 CurseDawg wrote: All races are hard. It's just some races are harder to play in diferent leagues. Indeed. When stim timing works and can't place proper forcefield or overdrone bronze to gold, terran is is actually easier to play than toss and zerg. Then it becomes totally different, and we can easily see it in gm, where there are 40% toss, 40% zerg and a rapidly diminishing 20% terrans. Skill requirements to play T on master/gm level are ridiculously high compared to zerg or toss. There are two ways approaching this issue: 1. The wrong way: making terran more a move friendly. Hellbat and Warhound prove that Blizzard want to explore that way. I for one, disagree. There is nothing more satisfying than splitting the shit out of your units, stimming small groups of marauders to pick off infestors/ht and other shenanegans, or multiprong drops, or stutter stepping on two places at the same time and see your opponent crumble cause he can't keep with your micro and multitasking. 2. The right way. Make other races less a move friendly. Let's face it, in whichever league you are as zerg and toss, when the battle happens, you can just spam your spell (whether fungal or storm or infested terran) at biggest clumps of units and your meatshield (zealots, lings) is just a moved. There is no much more than that than maybe using blink to pick ghosts and vikings and other cosmetic stuff. Some combinations (infestor, broodlord, corruptor) actually require even less micro and attention. So, to solve that, why not give zerg/toss units that benefit from good micro and nerf their 'straightforward' units like the zealot, the ling, the infestor, the broodlord, the hightemplar and the collosus and corruptor. Or make the above units require decent micro to be effective, just like all terran units do. | ||
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U_G_L_Y
United States516 Posts
On November 05 2012 01:57 Mali__Slon wrote: This is quite helpful, these things will save me some really nasty loses. Is it important to see thiming of his second gas or that doesnt matter? Generally speaking, 2 gas before 4 minutes means that it shouldn't be a 4 gate* but probably will be an all-in of some kind that hits at 7:15 or later. (Immortal/sentry, 3 gate void, or blink) Unless there are only 2 probes in each gas, it could be a 1 gate robo expand*, in which case you are economically ahead, so you can afford the scan either way to be sure if you can't sneak an SCV back in his base. If there is 2 gas then SC2John's timing is correct for the SCV re-scout at 5:30 since you know it can't be a 4 gate. *Obviously people can play mind games or just do a really bad build that will throw you off | ||
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On November 05 2012 01:45 U_G_L_Y wrote: Scouting for a 4 gate at 5:30 makes you dead. You will have a 30% complete bunker by the time it hits. If there is no expansion at 5 minutes, scanning at 7:10 will tell you that there are stalkers blinking into your main in about 15 seconds and you should have made those tech labs a minute ago, or there are DTs in your natural right now. If there is an expansion, scanning to see whether he is going double forge, robo, or templar tech is irrelevant because you are going to get stim, combat shield, and medivacs before adding a ghost academy, or second starport either way. IMO: SCV scout after the barracks is done, leave protoss base before a stalker pops out (4 minutes unless he skipped making a zealot or chronoboosted the gateway heavily) hide this SCV and run it back into the base so that it arrives at 5 minutes. (Depending on where he is hiding, I send him at about 4:45. If it is a 4 gate or blink all-in, you should see it plain as day because his units will be at your natural protecting the probe and the pylon it just made so you can give yourself a tour of his base. You should have just enough time to prepare for either. If he has his zealot and stalker guarding the top of his ramp (or a cannon) he is usually up to some sort of shenanigans worthy of a scan at your earliest possible convenience. If he expanded early, you can scout his macro build tech path and decide how you are going to react when your medivacs pop out between 10-11 minutes by using your whole army. By not wasting scans and by not losing mining time by scouting too early, you will have many more marines with this push. I suppose you can do things that way, just to be on the safer side. We've had this discussion before, and you and I do 1rax FE very differently. I agree, though, that perhaps you can move all my timings 30 seconds earlier to be safe, but those timings are really general IMO (example: if your opponent takes 2 gas, you can delay the 5:00 scout until almost 6:00 or just not scout at all). In addition, builds like 5rax or Bomber's build with an extra bunker blind counter 4-gate. In addition, although you and I have had this fight many times, using a scan between 6:30 and 7:10 does not affect any of your timings up to 10:00 and has no effect on the number of marines out by then. I think it's important to note that you aren't shackled to MULEs once you have 3 OC's, map control, and are close to saturation. From protoss perspective, blink stalker is blink stalker all the way...no other extra units. Generally 2-3 stalkers chronoboosted out, then a timing around 7:00. | ||
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sieksdekciw
240 Posts
On November 05 2012 00:10 erw wrote: someone teach me how to play tvp please....i have like a 10% winrate i just dont know what to do i go 1rax fe into 3 rax into getting stomped by anything they have what im asking for is for example when you take your third, start upgrades, etc What are the problems you face? Which league are you in? Can you provide replays so we can point what goes wrong. Maybe you have a macro problem, maybe you have a micro problem, or a composition/scouting problem. There is no way we can help you unless you provide replays. | ||
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erw
Norway284 Posts
On November 05 2012 03:41 sieksdekciw wrote: What are the problems you face? Which league are you in? Can you provide replays so we can point what goes wrong. Maybe you have a macro problem, maybe you have a micro problem, or a composition/scouting problem. There is no way we can help you unless you provide replays. ill do it later today  | ||
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Snowbear
Korea (South)1925 Posts
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On November 05 2012 09:19 Snowbear wrote: How do you guys handle double forge protoss players? They upgrade so fast that i am always 1-1 behind (crono )...I don't play terran anymore, mostly play protoss. However, from experience, I've found the best way for a terran to counter the fast double forge play that I do is to just get that really fast 3rd and put on a lot of pressure, extending the midgame. As long as you're making good trades as the terran player and forcing the protoss player to stay on the defensive, you can continue to push ahead in the economy; this translates to the ability to last longer once protoss starts to head into action, giving you time for your upgrades to catch up. Hope this helps! | ||
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CurseDawg
Portugal31 Posts
On November 05 2012 09:19 Snowbear wrote: How do you guys handle double forge protoss players? They upgrade so fast that i am always 1-1 behind (crono )...Usually i do a medivac timing at 10mins with stim/shields and +1, and if they gone double forge instead of colossus, i can pull of a win there with stim kitting. If it doesnt kil him, well, Good luck  | ||
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MysteryHours
United States168 Posts
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U_G_L_Y
United States516 Posts
I got 7 roach rushed (I scouted it before the Warren was done) I had a bunker at the top of my ramp with like 3 marines and a factory making 1 hellion at a time and he just busted the depot and ran past. I took my workers off of gas but I had no production. Next game I scouted gas at like 2:45 and an expansion, he had mined more than 100, workers in gas when lings killed my SCV, so I expanded in base, walled with my barracks and factory plus a depot on both sides with 2 bunkers behind them. I was making marines off of a naked rax, hellions out of reactor factory, and added a second factory before he revealed 20 ish speedlings, no banelings. So when I got six hellions, I chased them out eventually but I had no map control, I went straight for tanks to not die. I had no idea what he was doing he would try a speedling runby every tine I tried to scout , he revealed speed roaches, denied my third forever, couldnt take a 4th, when I finally could afford blue flame, I went to the watchtower and promptly lost 12 hellions to some infestors hiding there (Shakuras) and then he did a huge ling run by and I was slow to raise my wall but it didn't matter because broodlords showed up like 2 minutes later and I had one starport with a tech lab and no gas. Then I lost to a 2 base muta that did no damage up front but then banelings crashed through my wall and killed too many hellions so lings were able to clean up my thors (obviously 1 tank would have been gg) Then I was going cc first and scouted a 1 base zerg super early so I made 2 rax and made bunkers, he just camped in my natural, when I got seige tanks, he just pulled them just out of range, when I would move to try to chase them out he would rush in and snipe a tank and run away again... He took 3 bases before I could secure my natural. If I scout gas, zerg can hit before my banshee is done, and I frequently lose all my SCVs at my natural, but when I play safe, I cant expand and Zerg can. I feel like there is something I am missing here, fundamentally, because I never see streamers have this problem. How should I be responding to gas before 4 minutes or 1 base? | ||
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erw
Norway284 Posts
can anyone tell me what i did wrong/how i could win | ||
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sieksdekciw
240 Posts
On November 06 2012 00:14 U_G_L_Y wrote: I think I have won 100 percent of my TvZs where Zerg takes a fast third, but if they go fast gas, I never win. I go hellion banshee into mech. I got 7 roach rushed (I scouted it before the Warren was done) I had a bunker at the top of my ramp with like 3 marines and a factory making 1 hellion at a time and he just busted the depot and ran past. I took my workers off of gas but I had no production. Next game I scouted gas at like 2:45 and an expansion, he had mined more than 100, workers in gas when lings killed my SCV, so I expanded in base, walled with my barracks and factory plus a depot on both sides with 2 bunkers behind them. I was making marines off of a naked rax, hellions out of reactor factory, and added a second factory before he revealed 20 ish speedlings, no banelings. So when I got six hellions, I chased them out eventually but I had no map control, I went straight for tanks to not die. I had no idea what he was doing he would try a speedling runby every tine I tried to scout , he revealed speed roaches, denied my third forever, couldnt take a 4th, when I finally could afford blue flame, I went to the watchtower and promptly lost 12 hellions to some infestors hiding there (Shakuras) and then he did a huge ling run by and I was slow to raise my wall but it didn't matter because broodlords showed up like 2 minutes later and I had one starport with a tech lab and no gas. Then I lost to a 2 base muta that did no damage up front but then banelings crashed through my wall and killed too many hellions so lings were able to clean up my thors (obviously 1 tank would have been gg) Then I was going cc first and scouted a 1 base zerg super early so I made 2 rax and made bunkers, he just camped in my natural, when I got seige tanks, he just pulled them just out of range, when I would move to try to chase them out he would rush in and snipe a tank and run away again... He took 3 bases before I could secure my natural. If I scout gas, zerg can hit before my banshee is done, and I frequently lose all my SCVs at my natural, but when I play safe, I cant expand and Zerg can. I feel like there is something I am missing here, fundamentally, because I never see streamers have this problem. How should I be responding to gas before 4 minutes or 1 base? I play CC first on most maps and have noticed that my banshee is done maybe 10 secs before their roach speedling push comes and I usually scout it coming with my first two hellions. However, if they do fast roach warren and rush for the 6-9 roaches, you will have to sack some scv's and stuff. The good thing about the faster roach warren without speedlings is once the banshee is done, roaches will die and no speedlings will guarantee he will be defensive from your banshee. Your banshee can then scout if he is doing a fast 3-rd + infestors or a some cutesy 2 base muta play. | ||
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Kasu
United Kingdom345 Posts
On November 05 2012 14:35 MysteryHours wrote: Against Protoss I've always heard people say that instead of charging into their deathball you should instead force a favorable engagement on your terms. How exactly do you do this? Very good question, I would also love this. If any GM-or-close level terran wants a project, I think a guide to engagements (even if it leaves much unsaid) would be an awesome resource. | ||
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