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On November 06 2012 01:27 Kasu wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2012 14:35 MysteryHours wrote:
Against Protoss I've always heard people say that instead of charging into their deathball you should instead force a favorable engagement on your terms. How exactly do you do this? Very good question, I would also love this. If any GM-or-close level terran wants a project, I think a guide to engagements (even if it leaves much unsaid) would be an awesome resource.
I am GM or close, however, I have no clue how to engage properly a good toss who has prespread his high templars and flanks with some. It can be really tough, especially if he has blink stalkers to pick off stray ghosts. What is nice, is if you scan ahead and kill obs with vikings, you can skirmish a bit more bravely with your cloaked ghosts. However, most tosses have more than 2 obs on the map so sometimes the false sense of security a sniped obs creates can cost you the game.
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From what i have seen in games (I am a gold leaguer so i am just saying what i see)
getting favourable engagements is all about knowing how to bait the right ammount of forcefields or storms, know how long to wait for before you should attack so that they don't have the upgrade they are waiting for but you have the better engagement, i have seen several games on cloud kingdom won when the Protoss was protectign his 3rd and the terran just waited at the bottom started moving up and kept pulling back and not engaging. Eventually the Toss got impatient ran forward into EMP's Snipes, and all kinds of bad stuff.
from all I have seen its about either forcing the protoss to make the first move into a slightly bad position, or baiting the forcefields from him and then punishing him
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On November 06 2012 01:33 sieksdekciw wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2012 01:27 Kasu wrote:On November 05 2012 14:35 MysteryHours wrote:
Against Protoss I've always heard people say that instead of charging into their deathball you should instead force a favorable engagement on your terms. How exactly do you do this? Very good question, I would also love this. If any GM-or-close level terran wants a project, I think a guide to engagements (even if it leaves much unsaid) would be an awesome resource. I am GM or close, however, I have no clue how to engage properly a good toss who has prespread his high templars and flanks with some. It can be really tough, especially if he has blink stalkers to pick off stray ghosts. What is nice, is if you scan ahead and kill obs with vikings, you can skirmish a bit more bravely with your cloaked ghosts. However, most tosses have more than 2 obs on the map so sometimes the false sense of security a sniped obs creates can cost you the game.
It's been discussed a few times by those who have properly researched and thus, the results are that it's mathematically in favor of Protoss no matter how the engagement goes.
The poor design of the match-up means that, if Terran does not get a significant advantage in the mid or early game it's practically over. In layman's terms, the Protoss are greater than Terran, and the more skilled the Protoss player is, the wider the gap of inevitability becomes.
It takes a pretty hefty fuck up and / or poor army movement for Protoss to lose end game engagements. I too am GrandMaster and have been since the second season - I spent hours upon hours and hours reviewing stats, replays, analyzing this along with some others over in the 'terrans gone from ladder' thread a while ago. The truth is, currently, Protoss vs Terran is mathematically imbalanced, and on top of that, mechanically favored to Protoss.
The secret to success with Terran is sneaky play, flawless macro in the midgame and being super aggressive at all times. The way the game is currently designed, Terran simply has to play on getting advantages more than the other races. It's pivotal to winning at all.
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Am I the only one who believes that Zerg and Protoss just rewards bad macro in some sense? This rolls into the idea that Zerg (mostly) and Protoss have such a high room for error. I'm beginning to think less so for Protoss, but this MLG and the past few days of GSL, I've seen zergs routinely throw away 4-5 full energy infestors (I'm looking at you Life) and when the terran tries to punish it, it's as if nothing happened. In fact, by the time the terran gets to the zerg to try and punish, he has already replenished and added additional infestors.
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What about 1 base zergs vs 1 rax fe or cc first? Either the bust works (because I scouted after rax was done/am responding incorrectly) or they just contain me while taking 18 bases
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On November 06 2012 02:57 U_G_L_Y wrote:
What about 1 base zergs vs 1 rax fe or cc first? Either the bust works (because I scouted after rax was done/am responding incorrectly) or they just contain me while taking 18 bases
If you scout a one base zerg you should camp on your ramp and/or double wall off. Just off extra mules you'll be ahead. 1 base zerg play is pretty weak if it doesnt kill you outright. If you are getting contained by roaches get a single banshee to clear everything out or just enough bio units for anything else. Getting an early banshee when doing a FE or 3cc is really strong against most zerg aggression.
1 rax fast expand is definitively better than zerg 1 base play, if something like a 6 or 10 pool you may have to cancel the expo, but just rebuild it on the highground above your ramp and you'll still be on at least even footing.
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They contain me, I dont know if they have triple expanded behind it or are going to commit. How do you break a 1 base roach contain before Zerg has 3 saturated bases?
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On November 06 2012 02:57 BeholdOblivion wrote:
Am I the only one who believes that Zerg and Protoss just rewards bad macro in some sense? This rolls into the idea that Zerg (mostly) and Protoss have such a high room for error. I'm beginning to think less so for Protoss, but this MLG and the past few days of GSL, I've seen zergs routinely throw away 4-5 full energy infestors (I'm looking at you Life) and when the terran tries to punish it, it's as if nothing happened. In fact, by the time the terran gets to the zerg to try and punish, he has already replenished and added additional infestors.
No, you're not. I've been ranting in my head about it since beta and others like orb have posted repeatedly about it on the TL forums.
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Hey,
how can I win with gas first cloak banshee vs a factory proxy allin with 1 tank, 2 thors and rines/SCVs? Since he walled the front, I couldn't scout his gases and didn't know what was coming. I obviously killed a lot of his SCVs but he just pulled the rest of them away to repair his thors at the front.
How do you even micro vs this comp? If I just amove, it's very likely that many shots will be wasted on those thors (since they get repaired). But sniping SCVs is very difficult in some camera angles.
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On November 06 2012 05:26 Hero1 wrote:
Hey,
how can I win with gas first cloak banshee vs a factory proxy allin with 1 tank, 2 thors and rines/SCVs? Since he walled the front, I couldn't scout his gases and didn't know what was coming. I obviously killed a lot of his SCVs but he just pulled the rest of them away to repair his thors at the front.
How do you even micro vs this comp? If I just amove, it's very likely that many shots will be wasted on those thors (since they get repaired). But sniping SCVs is very difficult in some camera angles.
Replay, because this is far from a common build. 1 tank, 2 thors, and marine scv cannot hit at all early. You could easily have cloak, banshee, and gone into 3 rax 1 fac 1 port 1 base all in follow up, and have tanks with siege. Just zone him out from the siege tank on the high ground, and abuse the fact you have siege. He's obviously all in.
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On November 06 2012 03:37 U_G_L_Y wrote:
They contain me, I dont know if they have triple expanded behind it or are going to commit. How do you break a 1 base roach contain before Zerg has 3 saturated bases?
Being contained as a terran isn't that bad as your buildings can fly. So to break the contain you want to take both of your gases and tech to tanks or banshees while building your second CC in your main. Also, if a zerg does an early game attack with roaches, the zerg doesnt have the money to double expand. Even if the zerg double expands, he definitely won't have the money to saturate all three bases. If the zerg is this greedy though, he won't be making units so once you break the contain you should be able to apply pressure to him.
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On November 06 2012 02:57 BeholdOblivion wrote:
Am I the only one who believes that Zerg and Protoss just rewards bad macro in some sense? This rolls into the idea that Zerg (mostly) and Protoss have such a high room for error. I'm beginning to think less so for Protoss, but this MLG and the past few days of GSL, I've seen zergs routinely throw away 4-5 full energy infestors (I'm looking at you Life) and when the terran tries to punish it, it's as if nothing happened. In fact, by the time the terran gets to the zerg to try and punish, he has already replenished and added additional infestors.
This is a Terran help me thread, not let's bitch about zerg and protoss thread. Yes terran micro is harder. So what?
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edit: answered better by someone else
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On November 06 2012 07:56 Mrvoodoochild1 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2012 02:57 BeholdOblivion wrote:
Am I the only one who believes that Zerg and Protoss just rewards bad macro in some sense? This rolls into the idea that Zerg (mostly) and Protoss have such a high room for error. I'm beginning to think less so for Protoss, but this MLG and the past few days of GSL, I've seen zergs routinely throw away 4-5 full energy infestors (I'm looking at you Life) and when the terran tries to punish it, it's as if nothing happened. In fact, by the time the terran gets to the zerg to try and punish, he has already replenished and added additional infestors. This is a Terran help me thread, not let's bitch about zerg and protoss thread. Yes terran micro is harder. So what?
Well the game has got to this state because of the huge zerg and protoss whinefest, so whining has proven to be a good way to “help” because who knows maybe Blizzard will finally listen to our pleas. seriously.. "sad zealot fanclub"?? For the easiest race to play/get decent at?? I can understand if it is made by a high level player about frustrations of dealing with similar high level 1-1-1s and what not, but for the average joe is there ANY reason to complain about Protoss being too weak? That was just disgusting
User was temp banned for this post.
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On November 06 2012 08:52 vNmMasterT wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2012 07:56 Mrvoodoochild1 wrote:On November 06 2012 02:57 BeholdOblivion wrote:
Am I the only one who believes that Zerg and Protoss just rewards bad macro in some sense? This rolls into the idea that Zerg (mostly) and Protoss have such a high room for error. I'm beginning to think less so for Protoss, but this MLG and the past few days of GSL, I've seen zergs routinely throw away 4-5 full energy infestors (I'm looking at you Life) and when the terran tries to punish it, it's as if nothing happened. In fact, by the time the terran gets to the zerg to try and punish, he has already replenished and added additional infestors. This is a Terran help me thread, not let's bitch about zerg and protoss thread. Yes terran micro is harder. So what? Well the game has got to this state because of the huge zerg and protoss whinefest, so whining has proven to be a good way to “help” because who knows maybe Blizzard will finally listen to our pleas. seriously.. "sad zealot fanclub"?? For the easiest race to play/get decent at?? I can understand if it is made by a high level player about frustrations of dealing with similar high level 1-1-1s and what not, but for the average joe is there ANY reason to complain about Protoss being too weak? That was just disgusting
I believe you're in the wrong forum.
Let me direct you to where you should be voicing your complaints. Click Here
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In TvT, how do I properly scout for a proxy 2 rax all-in? I'm doing a 1 rax FE. They throw down a 2nd depot early so I can't get my SCV scout in. I'm facing 8 Marines and a bunch of SCVs at my door at 5:30. Obviously a bunker with repair can stop this, but how do I know what I'm facing in time? It seems wasteful to burn a scan that early or build a preemptive bunker, they could be going for cloaked banshee for all I know.
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On November 06 2012 10:49 MysteryHours wrote:
In TvT, how do I properly scout for a proxy 2 rax all-in? I'm doing a 1 rax FE. They throw down a 2nd depot early so I can't get my SCV scout in. I'm facing 8 Marines and a bunch of SCVs at my door at 5:30. Obviously a bunker with repair can stop this, but how do I know what I'm facing in time? It seems wasteful to burn a scan that early or build a preemptive bunker, they could be going for cloaked banshee for all I know.
If you are going for a 1 rax FE or similar eco build, you should always make sure you have control of the watch tower. If you can see the train coming it will give you that extra 4-5 seconds to prepare. The simple logic here is that you can count how many marines he has... if he has more than you, he has another rax.
There is no 'definitive' way of scouting it because it looks the same as a 1 rax FE, especially if he is proxying the second rax or quickly walling off. So all you can really do is keep scouting and of course, build your bunker on time. There is absolutely no reason not to build a bunker on a 1 rax FE, it's safe and you only lose a few minerals for it when salvaged.
it is 99% loss for a player going 2 rax scv all in at 5:30 if you have your SCV's repairing your bunker in time.
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On November 06 2012 01:08 erw wrote:http://drop.sc/271367can anyone tell me what i did wrong/how i could win
When you scanned around 11:00 and saw the Colossus you should have strongly reconsidered your timing. You were still on your side of the map so you should have expected at least 2 Colossi by the time you reach his base. As a rule of thumb, don't engage Colossi without Vikings. You decided to go for it anyway, and when you engaged you immediately stimmed and pushed in, removing all hope of escape. If you had kited his Zealots back you could have dealt some damage, maybe drawn him out of the choke and been able to retreat if necessary.
Sometimes if there's only one Colossus you can quickly snipe it and still have a favorable engagement, but even that is risky because if he blocks with his army and pulls back the Colossus then you've just suicided your army. The safe bet would have been to hold off on the attack, take map control, poke his third and work on your Viking count.
So now you're 20 supply down and his third is up before yours. When you're pushing you should build your third at the expo instead of in your base. If you were worried about him sniping your 3rd you wouldn't have been pushing in the first place.
Despite all that you end up evening out, as you both turtle and max out on 3 bases. So it all comes down to the final engagement. There's a huge problem though, you don't have any Ghosts. When fighting late game Protoss, Ghosts are required. All it takes is one good storm to lose an otherwise even engagement. Your Viking count was also a little low. Against 3 Colossus you want around 9 Vikings. He had 4 Colossus and you had 8 Vikings. You need to keep tabs on his army with pokes and scans so you can continuously adjust your composition.
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United States2186 Posts
On November 06 2012 02:57 BeholdOblivion wrote:
Am I the only one who believes that Zerg and Protoss just rewards bad macro in some sense? This rolls into the idea that Zerg (mostly) and Protoss have such a high room for error. I'm beginning to think less so for Protoss, but this MLG and the past few days of GSL, I've seen zergs routinely throw away 4-5 full energy infestors (I'm looking at you Life) and when the terran tries to punish it, it's as if nothing happened. In fact, by the time the terran gets to the zerg to try and punish, he has already replenished and added additional infestors.
It actually is really important that people recognize this; it's not a balance whine, it's simply a fact of TvZ/TvP and is important to incorporate when evaluating scenarios, as you cannot simply say: well both of us made 2 major blunders of the same caliber, so it's roughly even or that I win a battle so now I'm ahead and can do what I want. Terran mistakes count for much much more than other races. In addition, it's far far more important that Terran build orders are executed absolutely perfectly compared to other races, as it changes the game completely. There are only two ways Terrans really win at the moment, outside of coinflipping or 11/11s:
1) Never make a major blunder (or at least until you have massive leads; this is how Taeja won so many TvZs)
2) Force the game into super chaotic scenarios where the opponent plays significantly worse
For example, in TvP if the Terran loses a battle from an even scenario on 4+ bases, he is either massively behind or its game over as Protoss remaxes almost instantly, Terran has no/few ghosts and will likely lose medivacs/energy on them and his units take too long to make. On the other hand if Protoss loses a battle, the Terran almost always has to retreat and remake their army instead of pressing on (at most killing one nearby expo), as if you do you run into templars and full warpins that decimate your weakened army (Taeja/MC in NASL for example). This is why in lategame TvP's the Terran often has to win 3-6 big battles in a row in order to win the game, while the Protoss needs at most 1 or 2 victories.
However, in the early-midgame the situation is reversed usually. If the Protoss loses key units or is slightly out of position, you can generally ride that advantage into an auto win or a large lead (which then often translates into an auto win usually by ramming him to death). A lot of the successful Terrans this MLG really capitalized on this (as in mlg players naturally play worse due to distractions/nerves). Flash/Bomber/Heart all won their matches vs Protosses on 2 or 3 base play.
In TvZ it is much worse and is completely one-sided, especially vs mech. If you ever lose your first army with mech from an even position, even if he only has some units left, it's almost always game over. You can take Bomber vs Leenock on Cloud from this MLG. Anyone would think Bomber was massively ahead after killing Leenock's 4th/3rd, having his own 4th, and being up a bunch of supply, however, Leenock had some infestor/broodlord which gave Bomber no margin for error. One small mishap in battle and Leenock's deficit turned into a simple win.
There was an open bracket game too of Binski vs Suppy where Binski was up 5 base to 3 and a good 40 supply but ended up losing despite his large lead because his vikings were clumped in 2 groups and his tanks were too far in the back to fire on the infestors. That one single mistake made the rest of the game irrelevant despite his lead and he lost despite being 5 base to (later) 4 the entire game. In other words, against Zerg, if he's on hive tech you are virtually never ahead enough that you can afford any mistakes and always must play with a do-or-die attitude. You have no leeway.
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Very makes an excellent point...It's realistic to look at Terran as being unforgiving. I play T and I find it gratifying and not frustrating.
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EPT
