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United States4883 Posts
On November 08 2012 11:20 eSuBuildings wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 11:01 Jer99 wrote:
Is it possible if someone can post the build that Flash used against protoss in MLG? Specifically, the build he used against grubby involving the quick 2 reactor and 1 tech lab on his barracks, and i believe against Naniwa in 1 of his games, aiming for a 100 supply push with 2 medivacs at around the 10:00 minute mark.
He seemed to have this entire build memorized up to the 100 supply mark, building everything at the exact same time, and the push demolishes the protoss if they do not open colossus. I checked the Liquipedia builds against protoss and could not find anything that goes that high up in supply.
If anyone can help it would be appreciated! I believe that was just a variant of the standard 10:00 2 medivac push. You generally don't want to be following a build order that goes all the way up to 100 supply. http://www.gosubuilds.com/terran-build-orders-2/terran-vs-protoss/tvp-bombers-build/Here's a link to the build. IIRC, you should be able to hit around 100 supply considering your macro is on point. It's a fairly easy build to memorize, too. Took me about an entire day's worth of games to get it memorized.
The build Flash did in MLG was completely different from Bomber's 10:00 push. It was an early walloff followed by a highground CC straight into 2 gas then 2 additional rax for a total of 3. He skips early +1 research to get 2 REALLY faster reactors, pushing into the protoss natural a little later, around 11:00. The reason this destroys a lot of openers aside from colossus is that marines in that quantity that early on kill gateway defenses insanely fast. It also allows pre 10:00 timings with just a ton of units. If anything, this is much closer to MKP's variation.
I mean, at heart, it's a variation on this push, but I wouldn't call them the same. They are very very different pushes with much different effects.
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How do you beat really hard turtle mech in TvT? Usually, when I win bio vs mech it's by flying a huge drop through my opponent's turret line, getting him OOP to snipe his 3rd or beating him with multi prone attacks and/or runbys.
Yesterday I played someone on Daybreak who had easily invested 1k minerals in turrets, sensor tower and if I took his Xel'Naga he'd permascan my army, thus not allowing me to be sneaky in any way.
Idk what to do then. I mean, I just messed up my macro the whole game but even if I'm on 5 bases at that point, I don't know how to engage. It's like TvP in that my army gets crushed when I have to engage into him and I can't remax fast enough even with tons of raxes for his counter-push. Or maybe I even can but it's certainly enough time for him to siege up before my 4th base and leapfrog forward and there's not much I can do about it.
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Could anyone help me with the Hellion Filter Korean pros sometimes use in TvT? It's a special arrangement of Supply Depot that allows Marauders and Marines (but not Hellions) to go through, but I have been unable to replicate it...
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On November 09 2012 22:09 Ahelvin wrote:
Could anyone help me with the Hellion Filter Korean pros sometimes use in TvT? It's a special arrangement of Supply Depot that allows Marauders and Marines (but not Hellions) to go through, but I have been unable to replicate it...
Playing around just now, placing them corner-to-corner appears to work:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/DRewr.jpg)
Marauders can fit through that, hellions can't, but it will bottleneck your bio pretty badly. Definitely lower them anyway if you want to move a large group.
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On November 10 2012 01:27 Kasu wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 22:09 Ahelvin wrote:
Could anyone help me with the Hellion Filter Korean pros sometimes use in TvT? It's a special arrangement of Supply Depot that allows Marauders and Marines (but not Hellions) to go through, but I have been unable to replicate it... Playing around just now, placing them corner-to-corner appears to work: Marauders can fit through that, hellions can't, but it will bottleneck your bio pretty badly. Definitely lower them anyway if you want to move a large group.
Awesome ! For some reason I didn't think of that, I was trying some sort of wonky 1-hex space... Thanks a ton !
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On November 09 2012 20:03 Poffel wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 16:24 AlaxWayLaxed wrote:Hey there everyone. First time using this forum as i have decided to get help in order to help me climb the ladder. Im a gold ranked terran on the sea server who is constantly vsing plat players (and on a bad day even the odd diamond player for some reason) yet i just cant promote, i think i'm just not winning enough yet. Atm the match up i am looking for help for is my TvZ. I do a three rax pressure build that aims to stop the zerg macro as i fail to keep up with strong macro plat players late game while i expand behind it and aim to equal zerg in expansions. This build aims to hit between 7-8 minutes (depending on map and scouting etc) I want to keep doing this build as it abusing the strength of terran tier one early in the game. Now if the zerg goes roach to stop me, i tend to win about 80% + of the time, If he goes muta's i win if i scan the spire while it is building, However i always loose if he just goes mass zergling baneling. Here is some links to my most recent matches where i loose to zergling banneling plays. Loosing to Zerg/baneling #1Loosing to Zerg/baneling #2Loosing to zergling/baneling #3Not my best matches but should be good enough to see where i am going wrong or see what i can do better. For reference here is a match where my build works. its a bit drawn out but it shows why it works even when i don't straight up kill zerg in the first attacks and they stick to roaches and muta's Wining against Roach/Muta #1Now i know the obviously mistakes like the baneling landmines and such, im just looking for stratgey for my build, a way to effectively transition into something that can continue to put pressure on. remember im gold so my micro is poor at best. So hopefully i get some good advice. cheers anyone who puts effort in to help me. EDIT: Would of made this its own thread but i just joined the forums and cant be bothered waiting three more days to be able to make one and endure loosing over and over to this. The main problem with your build is that once you've put down three barracks plus addons, you have no means to afford constant unit production and an expansion. In other words, when you expand, it's a result of bad macro (usually it's a matter of you getting supply blocked). Consequently, you make it really obvious to your enemy what's going on... all he has to do is scout whether there is a base at your natural, and since there isn't, he knows that he just has to hold the initial push to be ahead. At this point, the correct response is to put down half a dozen spines, which shuts your build down hard. With your opening, you have to do damage with your initial push, else you're basically screwed. In your replays, I was mostly amazed at the awful reactions of your opponents. Only the guy in the third replay responds well, and I'd say that you can expect this kind of play to become more prevalent once you make your way up the ladder. Thus, the only thing I can really recommend to you is to get another opening that puts a little more focus on being able to win a game after the 10 minute mark. However, for the build you're running with at the moment, and which you said you wanted to utilize in the future, the most obvious fix would be to open rax before gas, not the other way around. You neither need so much gas so early on, nor are you able to spend it; at the same time, you're constantly starving for minerals. Secondly, you should research stim much earlier, at least before concussive shells, in my opinion even before life shield (especially if you're going marauder heavy). Furthermore, you need to deny him from scouting your nonexistant natural. This might not even be possible all the times if he places his overlords smartly, but you should still try because your build more or less depends on it.
High plat Terran here. This is good advice. Your expansion is placed down mostly when your macro slips enough to allow you to get it. I would recommend switching to a 1-rax FE style build. You could transition this into the bio-style you seem to prefer (very fun style) or a mech style. A big part of going from gold to platinum for me was understanding what both myself and my opponent can and can't do with 1-base play / economy. You can get a great defense going using a 1-rax FE and then surge into really strong mid-game production.
Also, with good scouting a pure bio push is very hard to pull off vs zerg nowadays. You need supporting units (hellions, banshees, tanks etc) to accompany your push and put a little more pressure on the zerg. I am high-plat level with Zerg as well so if you want to practice feel free to add me (Prime #135).
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Cheers guys for the advice, i think i will have to make a 1 rax fe expand style of play for maps such as CK and DB as there is nothing i can really do to stop the overlord scouting on those maps hence making my build useless as an opening. Maps like condemend ridge for some reason, not a single zerg went zling baneling against me so i can stick to my current build there as i feel i can deny the scouting if i just move my units out to the natural.
Now i just need to find a sweet timing to hit before infestors come up as i learnt in silver, once that count gets to high i just straight up loose.
Once i got this nailed down ill be back for some TVT help as im even worse at that.
Quick question, how many barracks can i sustain production on behind double engi bay upgrades on 2 base?
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On November 09 2012 08:51 U_G_L_Y wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 14:49 Whatson wrote:On November 07 2012 16:39 TheDwf wrote:On November 07 2012 13:31 U_G_L_Y wrote:
It happened again, some guy went gas first 1 base, he then expanded and made a dozen roaches after killing my scout, i got a couple marauders, and teched to banshee, I lost it because I was trying to get my units unstuck from my sim city that was all screwed up out of panic at this point, he kept me on 1 base forever, when my second banshee was popping, i hadn't seen roaches for a while so i moved down with hellion marauder and found 20 banelings that were about to pop along with 15 or so roaches, they were faster than my marauders. I don't understand what I am supposed to be doing against cheesy zergs, especially early roach play. Tanks after banshee means you can't expand until 15 minutes and just die, is this not a problem for anyone else? Replay(s) and league please. I can't actually imagine this working in anything above Platinum Thank you for your valuable contribution to the forum. You have gigantic e-peen. I realize that I play at a VERY low level when I face zergs that take early gas, that is why I am asking for help instead of whining about balance. Despite this being the internet, I am honestly too embarassed now to post the replayS now, and I was intentionally slightly less bad-mannered in the most recent one just so I could post it and get some help. I am already raging just as much as I was 2 days ago thinking about the supply blocks and stockpiling money because I was staring at my base each of the last dozen times I faced something similar because I didn't know what to do. PS, Ugly.731, I'm diamond and I know I am really really bad at this game and anyone can be Master in 100 games and I'm just a retard and you are amazing. Is that the reaction you were looking for?
Uhhhh no not really, I'm just really really confused as to how a strategy like that can be viable but you're welcome to rage at me it makes you feel better...also I haven't laddered 1v1s or played seriously for over a month now so I don't think I can be called a master
And yeah like iamjeffrey said, sorry for being sounding like an elitist prick, but you need to post replays, there are hundreds of posted replays with loads of bm
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Russian Federation101 Posts
If u go bio then total max number u can support on 2 bases are 6(with add-ons), however u ll lack resourses to make 3rd base. And u have to consider that u ll also have reactored starport as it s an important part for bio play
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i have been having trouble vs zerg when i marine tank. i feel i always get rolled by mass ling and then the infesters come out and i cant attack cost efficiently. is this the reason mech has become so popular in tvz? should i just stop playing marine tank?
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United States4883 Posts
On November 10 2012 12:51 AndreiDaGiant wrote:
i have been having trouble vs zerg when i marine tank. i feel i always get rolled by mass ling and then the infesters come out and i cant attack cost efficiently. is this the reason mech has become so popular in tvz? should i just stop playing marine tank?
For these types of engagements, it takes a lot of attention and patience. Essentially, you need to have a group of marines leading and you need to siege up and start splitting on the first sign of him running in with zerglings or infestors. Also an important note: don't venture too far on the creep. You can siege up on the edge of creep, kill off some creep tumors, then move forward.
All in all, you just need to make sure you have a really healthy number of marines and you pre-split every time you siege up. It's a bit frustrating at first, but if you just focus on paying lots of attention to your army, you'll start to pull ahead unless the zerg engages perfectly.
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On November 09 2012 20:29 Hero1 wrote:
How do you beat really hard turtle mech in TvT? Usually, when I win bio vs mech it's by flying a huge drop through my opponent's turret line, getting him OOP to snipe his 3rd or beating him with multi prone attacks and/or runbys.
Yesterday I played someone on Daybreak who had easily invested 1k minerals in turrets, sensor tower and if I took his Xel'Naga he'd permascan my army, thus not allowing me to be sneaky in any way.
Idk what to do then. I mean, I just messed up my macro the whole game but even if I'm on 5 bases at that point, I don't know how to engage. It's like TvP in that my army gets crushed when I have to engage into him and I can't remax fast enough even with tons of raxes for his counter-push. Or maybe I even can but it's certainly enough time for him to siege up before my 4th base and leapfrog forward and there's not much I can do about it.
Contain, take bases and switch to Battlecruisers.
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Any Siege Expand counters?
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On November 10 2012 12:51 AndreiDaGiant wrote:
i have been having trouble vs zerg when i marine tank. i feel i always get rolled by mass ling and then the infesters come out and i cant attack cost efficiently. is this the reason mech has become so popular in tvz?
Yes, now that maps are quickly covered with creep, fighting with Marines/Tanks is much harder than before. Creep really makes it easier for Zergs to clear your pre-Hive timing and tech with relative impunity. Be sure that your build incorporates something to slow creep as much as possible at the beginning of the game (as it's an exponential thing) and pay attention to your upgrades, Marines trade horribly against Zerglings on creep if you're at an upgrade disadvantage.
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ive been getting killed on ladder TT
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On November 11 2012 00:02 Wrathsc2 wrote:
ive been getting killed on ladder TT
Post replays please, and somekind of self analysis on what you're having trouble with so we can help you.
Macro better.
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On November 10 2012 15:00 sicueft wrote:Contain, take bases and switch to Battlecruisers.
Sounds good although on Daybreak specifically it'll be hard to contain/prevent him from taking his 3rd.
Is there also a rough guideline for this transtition, i.e. how many bases/geysers do I need, how many ports do you build (I suppose we also need a lot of vikings since he should have already have some of them as a mech player) and do you cut other units (tanks, marauders) ?
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Oh by the way, can anyone tell me what I had done wrong?
http://drop.sc/274327
Please ignore my BM at the end...I just got pissed off, he recovered from an all-in like it was nothing.
Should I had killed his third expansion? Should I had gone mech?
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I also have a replay to analysis
http://drop.sc/274336
could you please tell me what I did wrong here apart from loosing my army in a stupid way during those doom drops?
I thought I was ahead after that failed 6 gate, he had no tech
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EPT
