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On August 12 2012 11:23 yeint wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2012 09:06 Liquid`Drone wrote:
If true, how is this not big news? Global surveillance with facial recognition? You're fine with someone knowing where you are and what you're doing at every moment? There's absolutely no way any possible terrorist or other threat justifies this gross invasion of privacy, and that's that. I don't care even the slightest bit. I have nothing to hide, nor do I think anyone gives two shits about what I do or where I am. Recognize my face all day and all night for all I care. The important part of 1984 is not the surveillance. Winston Smith is not caught via telescreen, he's caught via informants. If our governments decide to become repressive totalitarian police states, they don't need supercomputers in hidden data centers. They managed just fine without that for most of the 20th century in pretty much half of the developed world.
Orwell couldn't even have imagined a world like ours. If our government turned authoritarian, it is the NSA and its ridiculous computing power that will be the secret police of that world. Or not that secret for that matter.
This is something people don't seem to realize. The difference between the US and say Iran isn't that people who don't do anything wrong and keep their heads down have markedly different levels of freedoms. The difference is that in the US people can have a difference off opinion with the government and still have the same level of freedom. In Iran that is not possible. One big reason for this has always been the governments moratorium on extensive spying on US soil. Crossing that line isn't going to destroy the structure of our society today or tomorrow, but perhaps in the next few decades.
Think about 32 years from now when we have a new president who was a teenager today. At the press of a button the NSA and any number of participating corporations can pull up a shit load of incriminating information on the president. The same is true for politicians, judges, lawyers, reporters. Shit even scientists. The only thing that would prevent this (in case such a wide surveillance system isn't shut down) is the conscience of the people working at these corporations and for the NSA.
And lets be honest, that is definitely no protection at all.
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On August 12 2012 22:08 Competent wrote:
All these people bitching at the "So what?" crowd is killing me. What would you like us to do? Go grab my gun? Meet up in thousands? Storm DC? Please, elaborate. Or are we just supposed to agree with you as we all bask in the faint glow of our monitors with our tin foil hats while discussing how much this is bad? Are we supposed to be afraid of what we can't stop?Everyday paranoid more than the last.
Please, explain it too me, because I am not going to sit here worried to death over something that is not affecting me right now.
On topic: I think there are many things that can be drawn from this leak, why are we all assuming the worse?
Part of the whole premise of America, and how it actually got its start as a nation, is the idea that people will react just how you said to an overly tyrannical government. We are not anywhere close to that point yet, but the principle stands.
What I want is a proportionate response. Something slightly above apathy but below revolutionary zeal, it does not always have to be one or the other. Usually, a policy being massively unpopular is enough to make the government to back down, or implement it in a more sensible manner. If too many people have become accepting to the point where their discontent cannot overcome their default uncaring acceptance of that which is not immediately and directly effecting them, then the discontent which they shouldve at least allowed themselves to feel will not even register on opinion polls, surveys, internet trends, newspaper polls, protest gathering numbers, blogosphere, etc. and have no impact whatsoever.
The mere fact of not liking something and expressing that fact to others, of whom a few will contribute to the ultimately large number of people who are polled, surveyed and analyzed by the massive pr industry, can create change, even though this mechanism may be subtle to the point where it's impact may be denied or underestimated by some.
Part of being a human being is forming nuanced opinions and acting on them, even in small ways, so that the world around you does not become gradually shittier. Those few who actually do do things like march on Washington and organize protest movements are more crucial, but certainly not the only factor.
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Anyone who is unintelligent enough to use the common idiot's argument: "if you have nothing to hide you shouldn't be scared" should be executed to preserve the potency of the human gene pool.
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On August 12 2012 23:31 redviper wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2012 11:23 yeint wrote:On August 11 2012 09:06 Liquid`Drone wrote:
If true, how is this not big news? Global surveillance with facial recognition? You're fine with someone knowing where you are and what you're doing at every moment? There's absolutely no way any possible terrorist or other threat justifies this gross invasion of privacy, and that's that. I don't care even the slightest bit. I have nothing to hide, nor do I think anyone gives two shits about what I do or where I am. Recognize my face all day and all night for all I care. The important part of 1984 is not the surveillance. Winston Smith is not caught via telescreen, he's caught via informants. If our governments decide to become repressive totalitarian police states, they don't need supercomputers in hidden data centers. They managed just fine without that for most of the 20th century in pretty much half of the developed world. Orwell couldn't even have imagined a world like ours. If our government turned authoritarian, it is the NSA and its ridiculous computing power that will be the secret police of that world. Or not that secret for that matter. This is something people don't seem to realize. The difference between the US and say Iran isn't that people who don't do anything wrong and keep their heads down have markedly different levels of freedoms. The difference is that in the US people can have a difference off opinion with the government and still have the same level of freedom. In Iran that is not possible. One big reason for this has always been the governments moratorium on extensive spying on US soil. Crossing that line isn't going to destroy the structure of our society today or tomorrow, but perhaps in the next few decades. Think about 32 years from now when we have a new president who was a teenager today. At the press of a button the NSA and any number of participating corporations can pull up a shit load of incriminating information on the president. The same is true for politicians, judges, lawyers, reporters. Shit even scientists. The only thing that would prevent this (in case such a wide surveillance system isn't shut down) is the conscience of the people working at these corporations and for the NSA. And lets be honest, that is definitely no protection at all.
If we could pull potentially incriminating information on anyone, wouldn't it become much less valuable? People currently underestimate how many laws the average person breaks, but if something like this becomes commonplace I'd hope it would change.
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the first two pages, with all that 1984 bashing reminds me of the thread, explaining how agencies try to influence threads to go downhill. this really looks like somebody tries to discuss irrelevant stuff just so that this topic wont get discussed here.
i might be paranoid but i'm glad i though of that and not go with the thread derailing haha
i'm glad i am not living in the USA although it is still very worrisome for everyone on this planet and i hope it gets more public attention!
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On August 12 2012 23:44 Demonhunter04 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2012 23:31 redviper wrote:On August 12 2012 11:23 yeint wrote:On August 11 2012 09:06 Liquid`Drone wrote:
If true, how is this not big news? Global surveillance with facial recognition? You're fine with someone knowing where you are and what you're doing at every moment? There's absolutely no way any possible terrorist or other threat justifies this gross invasion of privacy, and that's that. I don't care even the slightest bit. I have nothing to hide, nor do I think anyone gives two shits about what I do or where I am. Recognize my face all day and all night for all I care. The important part of 1984 is not the surveillance. Winston Smith is not caught via telescreen, he's caught via informants. If our governments decide to become repressive totalitarian police states, they don't need supercomputers in hidden data centers. They managed just fine without that for most of the 20th century in pretty much half of the developed world. Orwell couldn't even have imagined a world like ours. If our government turned authoritarian, it is the NSA and its ridiculous computing power that will be the secret police of that world. Or not that secret for that matter. This is something people don't seem to realize. The difference between the US and say Iran isn't that people who don't do anything wrong and keep their heads down have markedly different levels of freedoms. The difference is that in the US people can have a difference off opinion with the government and still have the same level of freedom. In Iran that is not possible. One big reason for this has always been the governments moratorium on extensive spying on US soil. Crossing that line isn't going to destroy the structure of our society today or tomorrow, but perhaps in the next few decades. Think about 32 years from now when we have a new president who was a teenager today. At the press of a button the NSA and any number of participating corporations can pull up a shit load of incriminating information on the president. The same is true for politicians, judges, lawyers, reporters. Shit even scientists. The only thing that would prevent this (in case such a wide surveillance system isn't shut down) is the conscience of the people working at these corporations and for the NSA. And lets be honest, that is definitely no protection at all. If we could pull potentially incriminating information on anyone, wouldn't it become much less valuable? People currently underestimate how many laws the average person breaks, but if something like this becomes commonplace I'd hope it would change.
Having incriminating information on everyone doesn't mean we need to expose incriminating information on everyone. I don't think that is the purpose off TrapWire today. Its a lot more likely its about ferreting out crime and stopping terrorism. But there is a gigantic slippery slope here.
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Sacrificing liberty for safety. Never works. Bow down and submit to your overloads or else be labeled as a "enemy combatant" or "terrorist suspect" and everyone will believe it.
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On August 12 2012 23:43 DemigodcelpH wrote:
Anyone who is unintelligent enough to use the common idiot's argument: "if you have nothing to hide you shouldn't be scared" should be executed to preserve the potency of the human gene pool.
Haha,
It's sad that a lot of my fellow countrymen cannot understand the implication of this. I think the thing we all need to keep in mind is that with the digitization of information that it is far easier to be tracked. This is a double edged sword - it means that people can stalk you easier but it also means that people like Asange can uncover this much easier. The potential for abuse of information has always existed along with the agencies that are willing to find it out, and if Trapwire went away another would spring to take it's place, but we should be comforted that there is now people willing to combat it.
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This thread has so many mornic comments in it it's impossible to read. Anyone who thinks this is somehow justified is severely deluded about the world and how it works.
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On August 12 2012 21:16 M4nkind wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2012 10:55 Djzapz wrote:On August 12 2012 10:25 M4nkind wrote:On August 12 2012 10:12 Djzapz wrote:On August 12 2012 10:01 M4nkind wrote:On August 12 2012 09:46 Zahir wrote:On August 12 2012 09:27 Gnarg wrote:
The real problem with this if its true would be the secrecy. In a democracy big decisions about privacy and security should be made in public space, otherwise its not much of a democracy at all. Agreed. Big difference between law enforcement and the judiciary running a surveillance network, open to media and public debate/scrutiny, with laws in place to protect the populace... And the intel agencies running it, selling shit to corporations, and doing god knows what else. "they won't care about me" yeah ok, go look up the red scare and mk ultra. CIA and FBI are well known for their propensity for fucking around with completely random individuals just to learn things, and blackmailing/intimidating large swaths of the population. I dislike how people completely ignore the past and assume that for some reason, this time the government contractors and spooks won't use their shiny new toy on completely innocent folk or random leftists. Democracy and freedom is a lie. No one would be stupid enough to let masses of people rule. That's why the masses don't rule, they elect people to rule for them. Right, and we have huge variety of uncontrolled people to elect. You truthfully think that elections of parties or presidents change anything? No "secret powers behind governments" want for people to have free will and do what they want. Thats why I love authoritarian regimes or communism, because they don't lie about freedom and show you true persons on the wheel of governing, where democracy has governments disguising in disguises and lies. I've seen that uneducated ramble so many times, I'm getting tired of the ignorance. Let me drop some knowledge upon you. Just a little bit so you won't get bored of reading. I'm doing this even though you'll refuse to take it because of your absolutist vision of politics, which is completely faulty. ![[image loading]](http://i48.tinypic.com/2zjfh9y.jpg) You have a small variety of largely controlled people to elect, and they're confined to a pretty strict division of the 3 types of power, and everything is kept pretty well in checks and balances which have done a reasonable job so far. Before I start, I want to concede something to you, but that's only because you limit your vision of politics to this, and I want to get your narrow mind to expand beyond this frankly childish vision of the world. It is true that every party, every government lies, cheats, steals, and lies some more. Are you satisfied with that, or are you an adult who's willing to ask okay, what's more? Neckbeards don't know this because they spend their day in the basement, dwelling in pessimism, think about how bad the government is. But there are MAJOR and truly tangible things that happen both with internal and international policies when governments change. I'll give you examples: Taxes: Depending on who you vote for, the tax code can and WILL change, a lot. Neckbeards don't know this because of their lack of financial responsibilities. Budget: The budget of the US changes DRAMATICALLY depending on who's elected. The focus is different. Neckbeards don't know this because they're busy thinking about how bad the government is. Do you think this is minor? Billions of dollars are moved all over the place. People lose jobs, others get jobs - sometimes jobs are lost, other times jobs are gained. This is huge, and lives are changed completely by this. Just because it's not you doesn't mean the US is not affected. Moral stuff: Ask homosexuals and blacks. They'll tell you that some governments work much harder to provoke social change. I'll use an example that I've actually studied: Research done by my uni showed that riot police is a LOT more aggressive under a conservative government than it is under a liberal government. Similar things happen in the US depending on who's in charge. Think about the abortion debate, gay marriage, capital punishment to name a few (out of hundreds). International stuff: Do you honestly think that Bush and Obama's administration have the same sort of behavior when it comes down to wars, globalization/protectionism, etc. Economic policies: Night and fucking day. Do you think the republicans would have handled the recession in the same way? Come on! Environmental policies: [More obvious stuff that YOU KNOW ABOUT] ... What about Obamacare, that's billions of dollars. Changes people's lives. What about Medicare. Social security changed lives and civil rights. The clean air act. Reagan's gutting of financial regulations had massive repercussions for everyone in the US but also in the world. I could list you examples for hours. "Oh it's all the same". This sounds like an insult but go read a book. Literally start reading things if you want to be able to be competent at these conversations. Don't just dump crude and unrefined feelings at us. Being pessimistic is fine, complaining about the lack of parties is fine, but to say that electing the democrats or the republicans makes no difference is to be willfully ignorant or just grossly dishonest. And the idea that communist and authoritarian governments don't lie to their population is just fucking laughable, pardon my language. " [Communist and authoritarian governments] don't lie about freedom and show you true persons on the wheel of governing". Hilarious: (For the sake of clarity, I'm saying that authoritarian and communist governments also lie just as much if not more. Just mostly about different topics). To answer your question, yes I "truthfully think that elections of parties or presidents change" things. Not only because this is my field of study and I know a thing or two, but also because if one applies themselves to look into it instead of spewing cookie-cutter nonsense, they will see that there are huge differences between the democrats and the republicans in the US. If you want to complain about your government, learn about it, and trust me you WILL find hundreds, thousands of legitimate reasons to complain and to be outraged. Legitimate reasons. But all choices done by governments are not for the good of common folk like 80% of time. They are done to make their supporters happy. And what are their supporters? All those companies that can buy secret info they want. And they do have right - they paid to have governing rights behind the scene.
Well that's true but a bit of an exaggeration as well. Yes private companies can lobby pretty hard, but they don't have all the political power, not even close. Not "80%" either, whatever the percentage happens to be (if it can be calculated in such a way). They do have more than they should, but you have to understand that there are many of them with conflicting opinions, some of them are actually good for everyone. But the people still elect their government and do have a fair bit of power, and the politicians generally try to do good to the people. Admittedly they do get sidetracked by the demands of corporations, which is a sign of a sick democracy, without a doubt - but it's not entirely controlled by corporations either. PPACA is a good example of something that essentially costs money to corporations without benefiting them at all.
And you can be sure that those soulless corporations will complain about they'd rather see their employees die than to pay money. It has already happened, and somehow some of the population supports that kind of shit. I could go on about how protecting our corporations is important, but now they're being coddled by the very people who are getting fucked by them.
I've read my own post, and I sound conflicted as hell - but that's because the situation isn't simple at all.
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On August 12 2012 23:51 gugarutz wrote:
the first two pages, with all that 1984 bashing reminds me of the thread, explaining how agencies try to influence threads to go downhill. this really looks like somebody tries to discuss irrelevant stuff just so that this topic wont get discussed here.
i might be paranoid but i'm glad i though of that and not go with the thread derailing haha
i'm glad i am not living in the USA although it is still very worrisome for everyone on this planet and i hope it gets more public attention!
yeah, i've come to the conclusion that psyops is a real thing, and teamliquid has gotten large enough that the companies feel its important enough to interfere with it
there are a suspiciously large number of people who post all these detailed arguments in politics threads and then have like 3 generally bland posts like "bisu played a good game" about starcraft in their entire history
why would you visit this place to talk purely about us politics
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On August 13 2012 00:40 throttled wrote:
This thread has so many mornic comments in it it's impossible to read. Anyone who thinks this is somehow justified is severely deluded about the world and how it works.
Actually pretty sure you're the deluded one. Almost everywhere else other than Westernized 1st world countries where democracy is #1, countries keep tabs on their citizens all the time in some form or fashion. It's been this way for a long time now; before governments utilized religion in order to manipulate the masses and maintain an information network among the population. Now, it's just taking a different form. People need to wake up and smell the fresh coffee; this is not something that is new. Shit like this has been going on forever, and it will continue to go on because that is the way the world works.
The United States has been keeping tabs on its citizens for a very long time; it's just you and me don't know about it. It is the way the world works, and people getting upset about it isn't going to change anything. If you want to do something about it, then go rally up an army and try and put a stop to it. Otherwise deal with it, because it isn't going to change.
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This is quite shocking and it is even more shocking that there are so many people, who do not care about it. Luckily there are still quite a few people posting interesting and insightful opinions. I find it also strange that almost no local (in that case: german) newspaper is reporting about this issue. Are there some reports about it in other countries?
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On August 13 2012 01:34 CraZyWayne wrote:
This is quite shocking and it is even more shocking that there are so many people, who do not care about it. Luckily there are still quite a few people posting interesting and insightful opions. I find it also strange that almost no local (in that case: german) newspaper is reporting about this issue. Are there some reports about it in other countries?
It's not shocking at all, because if you've studied governments and history in general, you'd actually find out that the government has utilized various methods to maintain control over information in order to keep the general population content. Whether it was through writing, religion, information based technology, etc. etc. etc. it's all the same shit. Those that "don't care" really don't care because neither you nor I can really make a difference because that's the way governments work, and it's been that way literally for thousands of years. Anyone that argues otherwise really hasn't even cracked opened a basic history book.
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On August 13 2012 01:44 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2012 01:34 CraZyWayne wrote:
This is quite shocking and it is even more shocking that there are so many people, who do not care about it. Luckily there are still quite a few people posting interesting and insightful opions. I find it also strange that almost no local (in that case: german) newspaper is reporting about this issue. Are there some reports about it in other countries?
It's not shocking at all, because if you've studied governments and history in general, you'd actually find out that the government has utilized various methods to maintain control over information in order to keep the general population content. Whether it was through writing, religion, information based technology, etc. etc. etc. it's all the same shit. Those that "don't care" really don't care because neither you nor I can really make a difference because that's the way governments work, and it's been that way literally for thousands of years. Anyone that argues otherwise really hasn't even cracked opened a basic history book.
Let me repeat your argument:
That is the way the government works and it has been like that for thousands of years and who cares, we can't do shit about it.
NOW I get it! Thanks for this awesome post, mate!
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interpreting all that data... we are still a very far away from being able to do that
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On August 11 2012 20:05 Absentia wrote:The passive reaction of some people in this thread is saddening. It's one thing to believe you're being watched and not feel bothered. To be shown, explicitly, that your freedom is being fundamentally undermined, without any consent whatsoever, and to still retain that passive acceptance? What's wrong with you?
The point is that we knew this would happen 10 years ago when we allowed the USA PATRIOT (Uniting and Strengthening America by Providing Appropriate Tools Required to Intercept and Obstruct Terrorism) Act to be signed. There was such a climate of fear about terrorism at the time that people didn't care that they gave away their constitutional rights.
So, yes, this is bad, but it isn't actually news.
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On August 13 2012 01:48 CraZyWayne wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2012 01:44 superstartran wrote:On August 13 2012 01:34 CraZyWayne wrote:
This is quite shocking and it is even more shocking that there are so many people, who do not care about it. Luckily there are still quite a few people posting interesting and insightful opions. I find it also strange that almost no local (in that case: german) newspaper is reporting about this issue. Are there some reports about it in other countries?
It's not shocking at all, because if you've studied governments and history in general, you'd actually find out that the government has utilized various methods to maintain control over information in order to keep the general population content. Whether it was through writing, religion, information based technology, etc. etc. etc. it's all the same shit. Those that "don't care" really don't care because neither you nor I can really make a difference because that's the way governments work, and it's been that way literally for thousands of years. Anyone that argues otherwise really hasn't even cracked opened a basic history book. Let me repeat your argument: That is the way the government works and it has been like that for thousands of years and who cares, we can't do shit about it. NOW I get it! Thanks for this awesome post, mate!
Yeah it's quite something :/
Anyone who cracks a basic history book also knows that there haven't been very many planes in the past, that's how transportation works. We can't just expect to have planes today.
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On August 13 2012 01:48 CraZyWayne wrote:Let me repeat your argument:
That is the way the government works and it has been like that for thousands of years and who cares, we can't do shit about it.
NOW I get it! Thanks for this awesome post, mate!
Pretty much. Unless you are in a position of power or have a rare moment of opportunity, you are insignificant and your opinion doesn't matter. Anyone who tells you otherwise is lying or deceiving themselves (there are a lot of people in the latter category who cling to "hope" over reality).
For every Martin Luther King, Abraham Lincoln, Adolf Hilter, etc, there are a million other people who tried to change the world and failed miserably, leaving no impact in other people's lives.
So for me, it is pointless trying to be the hero when all the odds are against you. You'd live a happier life if you ignored the issue and focused on something where there is a larger chance of success and you can actually make a meaningful difference. You'd make more of an impact as a teacher, firefighter, or even a financial advisor than as a failed political figure.
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On August 13 2012 01:59 dcemuser wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2012 01:48 CraZyWayne wrote:Let me repeat your argument:
That is the way the government works and it has been like that for thousands of years and who cares, we can't do shit about it.
NOW I get it! Thanks for this awesome post, mate! Pretty much. Unless you are in a position of power or have a rare moment of opportunity, you are insignificant and your opinion doesn't matter. Anyone who tells you otherwise is lying or deceiving themselves (there is a lot of people in the latter category who cling to "hope" over reality). For every Martin Luther King, Abraham Lincoln, Adolf Hilter, etc, there are a million other people who tried to change the world and failed miserably, leaving no impact in other people's lives. So for me, it is pointless trying to be the hero when all the odds are against you. You'd live a happier life if you ignored the issue and focused on something where there is a larger chance of success and you can actually make a meaningful difference. You'd make more of an impact as a teacher, firefighter, or even a financial advisor than as a failed political figure.
Women have rights today because they tried something.
You'd live a better life if you didn't bend over so easily and actually had principles.
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EPT
