|
On August 13 2012 05:10 AllHailTheDead wrote:
1984, Fahrenheit 451, V for Vendetta, and im sure theres many more
but basically this is what it will eventually come to. The Government will try and protect their citizens but by doing so they will infringe upon our rights
who knows to what extend it could lead too
This has little to do with a government trying to protect its people. It's got everything to do with the powers that be wanting to remain the powers that be.
To quote V for Vendetta: "People should not be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people." At the moment, the amount of possible surveillance our governments have over their citizens is scary.
I do agree that if things keep going like this (liberties repressed or even removed in the name of "safety"; economic downturn; gap between the rich and the poor that keeps on widening), there will be a lot of public uproar. Revolution? Maybe. History has shown, however, that a lot of shit needs to go down during a relatively long time span before people on the streets are actually willing to go that far. Look at Greece. It's gone from first world country to third world country in a matter of years, and apart from heavy protesting and a lot of strikes, it doesn't seem that people are about to take rights into their own hands.
One thing is certain though, the decade 2010-2020 is going to be one hell of an interesting one.
|
On a related subject.
Wikileaks has been down for a couple of days already due to the largest DDOS attack (10/gbps) that they have faced to date. They have even tried to move behind different cloud services to no avail.
Either the big dogs finally figured out a way to DDOS them into the ground, OR maybe they finally released something that could interfere on a large enough scale to merit the reboot of the previously called off 1 million dollar a month attack that the u.s government was caught funding - in this same release.
I wonder if these new 'super' weaponized viruses that have spread across the world have created the botnet that is currently being wielded.
Regardless, someone does not like wikileaks, and it is very strange timing that when these global intel files started getting exposure, a strong arm attack occurs.
|
On August 13 2012 04:17 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2012 04:12 ermogh wrote:
@superstartran
By the way with that post of mine i was not saying that governments had never used other ways of controlling people I was simply stating that you can not say that this leak means that the US will turn into Nazi Germany or the USSR. You're right, especially when the fucking system was advertised all over the place. How people are making a huge deal about this is so hilarious. http://www.nvtc.org/tec/RichardHelms.phphttp://www.cjimagazine.com/archives_PDF/CJI_Magazine_Archive_2006_11-12.pdf (look on page 39) It's amazing that people will go to any lengths to make it look like some "secretive" government project when THE FUCKING PRODUCT WAS ADVERTISED EVERYWHERE. Dear god.
The advertising, while helpful in showing what trapwires owners want others to believe it is, Is irrelevant in the sense that it says nothing about what trapwire actually does. Being a private company, abraxas has none of the moral or legal restrictions or transparency and accountability requirements placed on government. They are by no means limiting their services to anti terrorism and security as their advertisements purport.
Selling information about citizens to corporations, such as tracking and monitoring activists, using information those citizens paid for with the expectation that they were to be used for security, is one such ethically dubious behavior that abraxas is already engaging in. Citizens being forced to pay for a massive surveillance network to sell information about them to corporations, is a system which few of those citizens would approve of, and in a democratic society, in spite of whatever you say, massively unpopular systems which effect the entire voting body tend to be dismantled. Red scare was eventually defused, cia had to abandon abduction and torture of us citizens. Your references to historicity tend to underestimate the trend of unpopular and unethical domestic programs being shut down.
Furthermore, you state that information control is necessary for a functioning government. I agree. I think many things are necessary for a functioning government, for example, law enforcement. However I do not believe that police officers should work for a private contractor and give information and records from interviews of citizens and their vehicular cameras to Dow and coca cola for money. In fact there are laws in place to prevent them from disclosing such info. What your analysis fails to capture is the notion that surveillance can be done in a not totally corrupt fashion. The EU proposal for a surveillance network contains stronger ethical and human rights protections than the american one, and yet somehow their society has yet to collapse.
I do not understand your defense of the level of corporatization and spreading of not security related information, unethically, to the highest bidder, using systems that a democratic populace paid for with no expectation that it would be put to such nefarious purposes. If anything, you should look to the example provided by the citizens of the EU who have gained greater expectation of ethical behavior by their government and security networks, without the catastrophic governmental collapse which you have made reference to.
|
I think we underestimated the horrible things a person could do. Lets imagine how that was changed in time?
At first people could only stab each other.
Then they started to be able to blow each other up.
And shoot each other as well. And population was so small at that time that minimal effort was needed to get the criminals/terrorists/evil doers.
But now, a single person can steal biological weapon, a group of terrorists can get nuclear weapon, there are almost no limits to how horrible crime can be and population is so huge that how in the world can you react/stop that crime in time? We need some kind of global/continental crime prevention system to prevent horrible things from happening. I just don't understand why you people feel so special that anyone would care about your boring lives? Sometimes you just think about yourself too much. It all has to be about you you you. We live in such free world that rednecks will blow government up for sure if they over do it with tracking our personal lives..
|
Sorry, but I don't get how people can evaluate terrorism as huge issue. I would say its statistically irrelevant. Every 3 seconds someone dies cause of hunger. So many people die cause of cancer, traffic accidents... If every year there would be an 11. september, it would still be a very minor issue. If you want to save peoples lifes, help people in countries to produce food, invest in science to defeat illness. If you want to lower criminal rate then fight against social injustice. A normal person having everything they need to live a carefree life won't kill someone just for no reason. And if someone is crazy and decides he uses his kitchen knife to kill random people there is nothing you could ever do about that.
Now the bad thing about surveillance is that power in the hands of a few people has a very high chance to be abused. Also I got the impression that our society promotes immoral persons to high ranked jobs. I know 3 companies at marketing level and in each of them lying was the common case. If I meet a person at lets say a club and he says something I normally expect them to tell the truth. If you talk with a manager you should question every sentence he says. Lying just to get an advantage is just common practice.
|
On August 13 2012 21:13 M4nkind wrote:
I think we underestimated the horrible things a person could do. Lets imagine how that was changed in time?
At first people could only stab each other.
Then they started to be able to blow each other up.
And shoot each other as well. And population was so small at that time that minimal effort was needed to get the criminals/terrorists/evil doers.
But now, a single person can steal biological weapon, a group of terrorists can get nuclear weapon, there are almost no limits to how horrible crime can be and population is so huge that how in the world can you react/stop that crime in time? We need some kind of global/continental crime prevention system to prevent horrible things from happening. I just don't understand why you people feel so special that anyone would care about your boring lives? Sometimes you just think about yourself too much. It all has to be about you you you. We live in such free world that rednecks will blow government up for sure if they over do it with tracking our personal lives..
If the US would adopt a less imperialistic foreign policy then they wouldn't have to bother with as many people trying to ruin their day. I agree that there has to be some form of crime prevention system. However, if the government chooses to beef up that system instead of stopping to add fuel to the fire it says a lot about their intentions.
|
On August 13 2012 23:41 ain wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2012 21:13 M4nkind wrote:
I think we underestimated the horrible things a person could do. Lets imagine how that was changed in time?
At first people could only stab each other.
Then they started to be able to blow each other up.
And shoot each other as well. And population was so small at that time that minimal effort was needed to get the criminals/terrorists/evil doers.
But now, a single person can steal biological weapon, a group of terrorists can get nuclear weapon, there are almost no limits to how horrible crime can be and population is so huge that how in the world can you react/stop that crime in time? We need some kind of global/continental crime prevention system to prevent horrible things from happening. I just don't understand why you people feel so special that anyone would care about your boring lives? Sometimes you just think about yourself too much. It all has to be about you you you. We live in such free world that rednecks will blow government up for sure if they over do it with tracking our personal lives..
If the US would adopt a less imperialistic foreign policy then they wouldn't have to bother with as many people trying to ruin their day. I agree that there has to be some form of crime prevention system. However, if the government chooses to beef up that system instead of stopping to add fuel to the fire it says a lot about their intentions.
The threats to America and the attacks were not the result of their foreign policy. This myth has been propegated often enough and simply has no basis in reality.
Not all people are reactionairy, other human beings outside of white Americans have agency as well, and a good number of them is agressively out to hurt them.
|
On August 13 2012 21:13 M4nkind wrote:
I think we underestimated the horrible things a person could do. Lets imagine how that was changed in time?
At first people could only stab each other.
Then they started to be able to blow each other up.
And shoot each other as well. And population was so small at that time that minimal effort was needed to get the criminals/terrorists/evil doers.
But now, a single person can steal biological weapon, a group of terrorists can get nuclear weapon, there are almost no limits to how horrible crime can be and population is so huge that how in the world can you react/stop that crime in time? We need some kind of global/continental crime prevention system to prevent horrible things from happening. I just don't understand why you people feel so special that anyone would care about your boring lives? Sometimes you just think about yourself too much. It all has to be about you you you. We live in such free world that rednecks will blow government up for sure if they over do it with tracking our personal lives..
Maybe not have so many nukes and biological warfare weapons then, maybe? No? I mean, everyone knows that mankind should never, under any circumstance use such weapons again on other humans.
|
On August 13 2012 23:54 zalz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2012 23:41 ain wrote:On August 13 2012 21:13 M4nkind wrote:
I think we underestimated the horrible things a person could do. Lets imagine how that was changed in time?
At first people could only stab each other.
Then they started to be able to blow each other up.
And shoot each other as well. And population was so small at that time that minimal effort was needed to get the criminals/terrorists/evil doers.
But now, a single person can steal biological weapon, a group of terrorists can get nuclear weapon, there are almost no limits to how horrible crime can be and population is so huge that how in the world can you react/stop that crime in time? We need some kind of global/continental crime prevention system to prevent horrible things from happening. I just don't understand why you people feel so special that anyone would care about your boring lives? Sometimes you just think about yourself too much. It all has to be about you you you. We live in such free world that rednecks will blow government up for sure if they over do it with tracking our personal lives..
If the US would adopt a less imperialistic foreign policy then they wouldn't have to bother with as many people trying to ruin their day. I agree that there has to be some form of crime prevention system. However, if the government chooses to beef up that system instead of stopping to add fuel to the fire it says a lot about their intentions. The threats to America and the attacks were not the result of their foreign policy. This myth has been propegated often enough and simply has no basis in reality. Not all people are reactionairy, other human beings outside of white Americans have agency as well, and a good number of them is agressively out to hurt them.
Yeah the Muslims (not saying ALL of them...but the contested middle-eastern ones) don't hate us because we do anything and everything for Israel...nope...
|
On August 14 2012 03:03 Silidons wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2012 23:54 zalz wrote:On August 13 2012 23:41 ain wrote:On August 13 2012 21:13 M4nkind wrote:
I think we underestimated the horrible things a person could do. Lets imagine how that was changed in time?
At first people could only stab each other.
Then they started to be able to blow each other up.
And shoot each other as well. And population was so small at that time that minimal effort was needed to get the criminals/terrorists/evil doers.
But now, a single person can steal biological weapon, a group of terrorists can get nuclear weapon, there are almost no limits to how horrible crime can be and population is so huge that how in the world can you react/stop that crime in time? We need some kind of global/continental crime prevention system to prevent horrible things from happening. I just don't understand why you people feel so special that anyone would care about your boring lives? Sometimes you just think about yourself too much. It all has to be about you you you. We live in such free world that rednecks will blow government up for sure if they over do it with tracking our personal lives..
If the US would adopt a less imperialistic foreign policy then they wouldn't have to bother with as many people trying to ruin their day. I agree that there has to be some form of crime prevention system. However, if the government chooses to beef up that system instead of stopping to add fuel to the fire it says a lot about their intentions. The threats to America and the attacks were not the result of their foreign policy. This myth has been propegated often enough and simply has no basis in reality. Not all people are reactionairy, other human beings outside of white Americans have agency as well, and a good number of them is agressively out to hurt them. Yeah the Muslims (not saying ALL of them...but the contested middle-eastern ones) don't hate us because we do anything and everything for Israel...nope...
Oke, so they threaten us, they attack us.
The first thing we need to sacrifice to them is the nation of Israel. Let's give it up, let them have it, let them kill everyone there. A small price, surely?
But the terrorist demands don't stop there, so what else did we do that was so atrocious that we deserved to be attacked?
The country of East Timor, over 90% christian, was invaded by Indonesia, who committed what can be argued was a genocide.
When after 25 years the occupation came to an end, through no small part of UN and US pressure, we went too far for Al-Qaeda.
For not allowing Indonesia to occupy East Timor and establish Islamic rule, and for not allowing it to finish the genocide, we went too far.
So, we should have ignored the suffering of the people. Let Indonesia commit a complete ethnic cleansing, all because the terrorists demand it. But what matters it? We give up the Jews, we give up the Christians, offer them all on the altar of Islamic terrorism.
What else have we done that was too insulting for them to tolerate? The establishment of embassies. As long as we maintain any influence, any relationship with the muslim world, we will be subject to attacks. If we try to let our culture seep into theirs (be it music, movies, books, paintings, etc), they will attack us.
Read their list of demands, then consider just how much and how far you are willing to sell everyone down the road, how many millions you consider expendable for the grinding wheel.
Don't expect there to be peace though. They might leave us alone, but Islamic terrorism is distinctly imperialistic, its goal, after all, is the establishment of an Islamic caliphate.
People need to stop saying that these terrorists don't mean what they say. You can't negotiate with agressive totalitarian systems. Have we learned nothing from selling Czechoslovakia down the road? They will take and take.
For all the things that Bush got wrong, he managed to get that right. You don't negotiatie with terrorists.
|
On August 14 2012 03:51 zalz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 03:03 Silidons wrote:On August 13 2012 23:54 zalz wrote:On August 13 2012 23:41 ain wrote:On August 13 2012 21:13 M4nkind wrote:
I think we underestimated the horrible things a person could do. Lets imagine how that was changed in time?
At first people could only stab each other.
Then they started to be able to blow each other up.
And shoot each other as well. And population was so small at that time that minimal effort was needed to get the criminals/terrorists/evil doers.
But now, a single person can steal biological weapon, a group of terrorists can get nuclear weapon, there are almost no limits to how horrible crime can be and population is so huge that how in the world can you react/stop that crime in time? We need some kind of global/continental crime prevention system to prevent horrible things from happening. I just don't understand why you people feel so special that anyone would care about your boring lives? Sometimes you just think about yourself too much. It all has to be about you you you. We live in such free world that rednecks will blow government up for sure if they over do it with tracking our personal lives..
If the US would adopt a less imperialistic foreign policy then they wouldn't have to bother with as many people trying to ruin their day. I agree that there has to be some form of crime prevention system. However, if the government chooses to beef up that system instead of stopping to add fuel to the fire it says a lot about their intentions. The threats to America and the attacks were not the result of their foreign policy. This myth has been propegated often enough and simply has no basis in reality. Not all people are reactionairy, other human beings outside of white Americans have agency as well, and a good number of them is agressively out to hurt them. Yeah the Muslims (not saying ALL of them...but the contested middle-eastern ones) don't hate us because we do anything and everything for Israel...nope... Oke, so they threaten us, they attack us. The first thing we need to sacrifice to them is the nation of Israel. Let's give it up, let them have it, let them kill everyone there. A small price, surely? But the terrorist demands don't stop there, so what else did we do that was so atrocious that we deserved to be attacked? The country of East Timor, over 90% christian, was invaded by Indonesia, who committed what can be argued was a genocide. When after 25 years the occupation came to an end, through no small part of UN and US pressure, we went too far for Al-Qaeda. For not allowing Indonesia to occupy East Timor and establish Islamic rule, and for not allowing it to finish the genocide, we went too far. So, we should have ignored the suffering of the people. Let Indonesia commit a complete ethnic cleansing, all because the terrorists demand it. But what matters it? We give up the Jews, we give up the Christians, offer them all on the altar of Islamic terrorism. What else have we done that was too insulting for them to tolerate? The establishment of embassies. As long as we maintain any influence, any relationship with the muslim world, we will be subject to attacks. If we try to let our culture seep into theirs (be it music, movies, books, paintings, etc), they will attack us. Read their list of demands, then consider just how much and how far you are willing to sell everyone down the road, how many millions you consider expendable for the grinding wheel. Don't expect there to be peace though. They might leave us alone, but Islamic terrorism is distinctly imperialistic, its goal, after all, is the establishment of an Islamic caliphate. People need to stop saying that these terrorists don't mean what they say. You can't negotiate with agressive totalitarian systems. Have we learned nothing from selling Czechoslovakia down the road? They will take and take. For all the things that Bush got wrong, he managed to get that right. You don't negotiatie with terrorists.
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB174/index.htm
Perhaps you could give your thoughts on a few of these documents that show a consistent US policy (five administrations) of supporting the invasion of east Timor by indonesia, which only ended during the Clinton presidency.
Also I'd like your opinion on the high rate of western and particularly US funded and supported terrorism and whether such terrorism should be supported in the future or abandoned. Surely terrorism is not wrong only when carried out by anti US forces?
http://www.globalissues.org/article/332/western-support-for-terrorism
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_and_state_terrorism#section_3
Let me just say that I do not approve of counterterrorism being used as an excuse to hand over the security apparatus of the state to corporations and intelligence agencies, when law enforcement and the judiciary seem a more fitting choice for running domestic surveillance.
|
This sounds more like a conspiracy thread than actual big news. I'm not doing anything I need to hide anyways so if the gov wants to take a few pics of my butt when I get outta the shower then so be it. If it helps catch some a-hole making bombs or whatever in his house then its fine IMO.
|
Theres a lot of "i don't care if they watch me" with different variations. This has been pointed out several times, so i thought i'd put a little spin on it.
Fine, you dont care if they watch you through your camera in your home, or listen in to you via your cellphones or your microphones or your dvd players and so on..
Fine, i get that... But, remember, they also watch your baby sister/brother, or your parent, or your friends. Right now theres a middle aged guy or woman sifting trough data with video links and soundbites of your dear dear family members doing things in front of their computor that they really wouldn't like anyone to know about, and ill let your imagination fill out the blanks. This IS an invasion of privacy, if not on you, then on your kin. Let that think through your brains next time you dont value your own privacy.
And heres something for good measure.
http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2012/03/petraeus-tv-remote/
***“Items of interest will be located, identified, monitored, and remotely controlled through technologies such as radio-frequency identification, sensor networks, tiny embedded servers, and energy harvesters — all connected to the next-generation internet using abundant, low-cost, and high-power computing,” Petraeus said, “the latter now going to cloud computing, in many areas greater and greater supercomputing, and, ultimately, heading to quantum computing.”***
Enjoy your Petraeus as your potential VP.
|
Im not surprised but people need to recognize its importance and seriousness, can we still say we live in a Democracy? Is this the way we wanna go?
|
Its an interesting thing reading reactions to this. On one hand it isn't all bad for some people to say "so what?" if you aren't doing anything illegal then who cares if some unknown anonymous person is going through some data on you? If you have secrets or w/e you don't want revealed it won't be. Hell no one will likely see 99% of this data anyway because it won't be flagged as worth looking at. Even if you have shit you don't want anyone to know about who cares if some tech guy sees it? He has probably seen it 1000x already and you really only care about keeping secrets from people that have meaning to you. Not some random guy who will probably forget what he knows about you in a little bit because he has moved on to the next thing.
Now that ^ is in an "ideal" way that this system would work. The problem with this system is that inevitably people suck and it will be abused in some way and that this system allows for a shit ton of abuse. It just gives so much power of the government over the people and with the way governments are do you really want to trust them to not abuse it? Its true that statistically the average person would never be bothered by this ever even if it was abused because they are simply not important enough. But what about political opponents? Or rivals in the corporation world? Politics and business are already dirty but adding this would give the entrenched powers that be all that much more ammunition.
|
I hope I'm not the only one intent on feeding them misinformation.
|
On August 14 2012 04:42 BillClinton wrote:
Im not surprised but people need to recognize its importance and seriousness, can we still say we live in a Democracy? Is this the way we wanna go?
What's funny is the majority of people probably feel that "they have nothing to hide" and don't mind being spied on in all their dealings.
EDIT: I'm beginning to wonder if blackmail is part of this agency's business model.
|
On August 14 2012 04:08 Zahir wrote:http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB174/index.htmPerhaps you could give your thoughts on a few of these documents that show a consistent US policy (five administrations) of supporting the invasion of east Timor by indonesia, which only ended during the Clinton presidency.
Yes, and that was the wrong thing to do.
Then, when America went into the right direction, Al-Qaeda claimed it as one of the most important motivations for their existence.
Backing genocide is but one thing that the west will have to do in order to 'please' Islamic terrorists. The question is, are the appeasers ready to surrender that much?
Saying that America's foreign policy is to blame is a cop-out when you look at what these terrorists demand. Leaving other countries alone is going to mean watching genocides play out. This high and mighty attitude that America needs to "mind its own business," means standing by and watching evil play out.
When even something like having diplomatic relations with a nation is considered an invasion of the middle-east, you need to be intellectually honest and admit that the price to pay is a great deal higher than America just "minding its own business."
This is where you run into the problem of terrorism being ill-defined, allowing people to claim literally anything as being a terrorist act.
It kind of like how some people believe that Americans are literally slaves, because they have to work to earn their money. Is that a correct usage of the word slave? Not exactly, but the word is so broad that it is almost meaningless.
The same goes for America and terrorism. By its own definition, America does not engage in terrorism. By the definition of a tinfoil person, they support all the terrorism in the world.
Getting into that is one giant semantic clusterfuck. I do not nearly hate myself enough to subject myself to the tortureous process that is a debate about semantics.
|
On August 14 2012 04:42 BillClinton wrote:
Im not surprised but people need to recognize its importance and seriousness, can we still say we live in a Democracy? Is this the way we wanna go?
WE DON'T LIVE IN A DEMOCRACY! The US has NEVER been a democracy!
|
you forget that terrorists have their own motives, sometimes (not always) terrorists come from oppressed and misunderstood people . If democracy was true, these people would have their place in the world. Some countries that get attacked from terrorists pay in blood of common folk for mistakes of their greedy governments. Many terrorists are not mad idiots they are sad people that see no other choice to achieve their goals. The truth is this all freedom turned world in the fucking mess. And we need some control over the situation even if means for it may have some negative side effects (such as abusion for personal needs). Don't you feel that world is becoming big mess the further we go? I believe that implementing such silly systems will help for us not to go into chaos.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
