EPTWikileaks reveals global Surveillance system - Page 20
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ermogh
United States82 Posts
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superstartran
United States4013 Posts
On August 13 2012 01:48 CraZyWayne wrote: Let me repeat your argument: That is the way the government works and it has been like that for thousands of years and who cares, we can't do shit about it. NOW I get it! Thanks for this awesome post, mate! You can't do shit about it because if you tried to you'd disrupt how governments work in general. Good luck trying to change something that has worked the way it has for literally thousands of years, especially when you're dealing with literally the most powerful people in the world. You're better off trying to get Catholicism and other religions like Islam, Judiasm, etc. banned for scientific reasons then attempting to try and disrupt the way governments maintain order and control over their general populace. If a government falls, it's because it pissed off the general population and failed one of their basic necessities, not because they oppressed them through information control. As long as the every day American is fed, has a decent home, decent life style, they probably could give two shits about what the government does. It's when the government intrudes upon the lifestyle of your average citizen in some form or fashion when shit gets real. Until that point is reached (and it has not) then you can start your bitching. On August 13 2012 02:26 ermogh wrote: Can we all leave the USSR and Nazi Germany out of this please, because if you all have read a history book as you say you have you would realize that the mass control and survalence came after they took over not before as is the case here. If you read a history book you'd also know that governments and societies in general (especially during ancient times) utilized religion and writing in order to maintain control over the general population. This isn't something that is new by any stretch of the imagination. People tried to disrupt society's/the government's power by severing ties between Church and State, and yet they still yet it failed to do anything. The people in power merely shifted towards other forms of control, just less direct. Now they use information based technologies to do the same thing. *Gasp* the government is trying to keep and maintain order and control over the general population? So mind fucking blowing. The ancient Babylonians never did that! Neither did the Greeks, nor did the Romans! Oh shit..... wait..... they did. A government must maintain careful control over information within their own society. Without control over that information, it just results in mass chaos. Whether or not they have "stepped over the boundary" is up to you to decide, but don't pretend that this is something that has magically appeared out of thin air. On August 13 2012 02:04 Djzapz wrote: Women have rights today because they tried something. You'd live a better life if you didn't bend over so easily and actually had principles. Women have rights because there was an actual precedent in ancient history where women were given certain rights. That was the whole basis of the argument. People in power believed that it was right to give women rights, because they felt they had a moral obligation to do so. Women contribute to society, so why are we not giving them the rights that everyone else feels that they deserve? There is no basis for trying to disrupt a government's control over its general population as long as it provides the basic necessities of its citizens and doesn't step over the line (which is of course different from person to person, but if you piss off to many people shit happens). Want to know why? Because if you did that, every single fucking society on the planet would collapse in an instant. There is no "moral obligation" for the government or anyone else in power to stop trying to control information, to stop trying to ensure the security of its people, because it is actually their fucking moral obligation to protect us, from both foreign threats, and domestic threats, which also happens to include ourselves. Did they step over the line with this whole program? I don't know; I don't know enough to say that it has. Various other things could easily be abused such as CCTV, wire tapping, etc. and yet no one here is really bitching about that (and please, don't pretend that the Feds don't illegally wire tap or access video footage). All of a sudden people are all up in arms when the Feds could have the "potential" to spy on us, when they could have been doing it since the fucking 70s and 80s when they started shooting up satellites by the dozens into the skies. | ||
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ZaaaaaM
Netherlands1828 Posts
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Snaap
Germany22 Posts
Am I just to dumb to find it or isnt this even mentioned in the starting post? Right know it's seems to me that some people are overreacting, this is no nazi or 1984 shit, it's pretty obv that if there are cameras then they are going to fucking use them after paying a shitload of $$ to install. please explain to me if i'm totaly wrong with this | ||
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superstartran
United States4013 Posts
On August 13 2012 03:59 ZaaaaaM wrote: People not caring is so sad... Just because it isn't anything "new" (Sure is, yeah the concept exists for as long as societies exist but obviously not in this form.) they look the other way and dont care. I don't understand how you can't see this as a big deal. How can you feel safe under this kind of surveillance by a government thats shown to be capable of doing insane things. Because pretending that the government never had this type of power before is just laughable at best. It was a different form back in the day, and arguably much stronger. The ability to manipulate people through their belief system rather than through information is a hell of a lot more potent; look at various cults across the world and you'll see exactly what I mean. And yet the people in power felt it was necessary back then because if they didn't do this, then the general population (i.e. not you or me, but random joe schmo who hasn't finished a university degree) would likely do pretty dumb shit like kill each other, steal, etc. Not to mention, I don't see the big hoopalah when the government has had the power to illegally wire tap, access CCTV, access information on your computer, etc. blah blah blah with ease. And yet no one here is really complaining about the possibility of that. When people are like "oh no, a legally sanctioned security entity that we can keep tabs on" suddenly shows up, people get into a huge hoopa lah about it for no apparent reason. People on TL like to overreact to literally nothing. At all. It's a huge reason why I've become severely disappointed with it over various years, because it's pretty obvious there's no where near enough evidence within this "leak" to condemn the United States government at all. What are they doing with the information? How are they getting it? Are they breaking into homes and installing cameras without anyone knowing? Are they tapping into personal computers without permission? No one knows. No one has any proof. And yet everyone is like "HOLY FUCK MOTHER OF GOD IT'S 1984 EVERYBODY RISE UP IN ARMS!" I'm not saying this is right or wrong; I'm merely pointing out that 1) This isn't something that is new; societies control their general population through various means necessary in order to ensure the survival of its own people, and its own existence as a society and 2) There is nowhere near enough evidence to really say if this is a bad thing or not. All we know is that there is some sort of entity out there that collects information that is legally sanctioned by the United States government. Whether or not they are collecting the data illegally or in a "morally" wrong way remains to be seen. | ||
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ermogh
United States82 Posts
By the way with that post of mine i was not saying that governments had never used other ways of controlling people I was simply stating that you can not say that this leak means that the US will turn into Nazi Germany or the USSR. | ||
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superstartran
United States4013 Posts
On August 13 2012 04:12 ermogh wrote: @superstartran By the way with that post of mine i was not saying that governments had never used other ways of controlling people I was simply stating that you can not say that this leak means that the US will turn into Nazi Germany or the USSR. You're right, especially when the fucking system was advertised all over the place. How people are making a huge deal about this is so hilarious. http://www.nvtc.org/tec/RichardHelms.php http://www.cjimagazine.com/archives_PDF/CJI_Magazine_Archive_2006_11-12.pdf (look on page 39) It's amazing that people will go to any lengths to make it look like some "secretive" government project when THE FUCKING PRODUCT WAS ADVERTISED EVERYWHERE. Dear god. | ||
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ZaaaaaM
Netherlands1828 Posts
On August 13 2012 04:05 superstartran wrote: Because pretending that the government never had this type of power before is just laughable at best. (...) Whether or not they are collecting the data illegally or in a "morally" wrong way remains to be seen. So it isn't new and and it has been worse at points in history... These aren't arguments why its not a bad thing.. Or are you actually just mentioning that you don't like it that people call it new or don't point out its not as bad as it was? If so, way to miss the point. | ||
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superstartran
United States4013 Posts
On August 13 2012 04:17 ZaaaaaM wrote: So it isn't new and and it has been worse at points in history... These aren't arguments why its not a bad thing.. Or are you actually just mentioning that you don't like it that people call it new or don't point out its not as bad as it was? If so, way to miss the point. Hello; did you just miss the whole TrapWire is not some secretive project that was developed under the shroud without the consent of the people? Way to cherrypick and strawman all at the same time. | ||
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BirdKiller
United States428 Posts
...and the rest of the world goes on as normal. | ||
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ZaaaaaM
Netherlands1828 Posts
On August 13 2012 04:20 superstartran wrote: Hello; did you just miss the whole TrapWire is not some secretive project that was developed under the shroud without the consent of the people? Way to cherrypick and strawman all at the same time. What does it matter if its done in secret or not? Doesn't change what its actually about at all. All you're talking about is how its not secret etc. Whatever bro, whatever. America publicly speaks about going to the middle-east. Destroy a country for profit, cover it up by saying its a necessity to protect this society: a society thats willing to go to war to protect a society thats willing to go to war. Why would they even do it secretly, its so much easier to scare people and have them want more protection.. Unfortunately people do not realise it comes at a cost; privacy and freedom. | ||
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Soulstice
United States288 Posts
On August 13 2012 04:03 Snaap wrote: What do they actualy do with the infomation? Am I just to dumb to find it or isnt this even mentioned in the starting post? Right know it's seems to me that some people are overreacting, this is no nazi or 1984 shit, it's pretty obv that if there are cameras then they are going to fucking use them after paying a shitload of $$ to install. please explain to me if i'm totaly wrong with this Its not what they are doing now, its what they are preparing for. Hypothetically speaking if a police state breaks out, a global surveillance system would prevent any and all organizations working to counteract the police state etc.. They could prevent any unwanted behavior before it even starts, good or bad. Edit: Is anyone else having troubles connecting to wikileaks? Chrome tells me " Redirecting you to http://wikileaks.org/ " when i try to visit the site, but the redirect doesn't work. | ||
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Djzapz
Canada10681 Posts
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AllHailTheDead
United States418 Posts
but basically this is what it will eventually come to. The Government will try and protect their citizens but by doing so they will infringe upon our rights who knows to what extend it could lead too | ||
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CraZyWayne
Germany357 Posts
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ZaaaaaM
Netherlands1828 Posts
On August 13 2012 05:10 AllHailTheDead wrote: 1984, Fahrenheit 451, V for Vendetta, and im sure theres many more but basically this is what it will eventually come to. The Government will try and protect their citizens but by doing so they will infringe upon our rights who knows to what extend it could lead too Just know that the government isn't that protective of their citizens... I think its kind of naive to think so. | ||
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Reborn8u
United States1761 Posts
I'm not okay with our children inheriting a world where they can be numbered, monitored, and singled out. A world where any movement to drive change or reform can be dissolved or marginalized in it's infancy. Stopping a Federal Juggernaut that has the ability to dominate and oppress the population is the reason the founding fathers wrote the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution. If they were alive today I'm sure they'd be doing the same thing they did in their time, organizing a revolt. The more the U.S. Government breaks it's own laws, the more they delegitimize their own rule. The wording of the law is quite clear "congress shall pass no law" which means they never have had lawful authority to override the constitution, or to authorize any one else to. This has all been done "unlawfully". | ||
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imre
France9263 Posts
On August 11 2012 19:21 Warri wrote: Yeah, im surprised, too, at how many people don't see this as bad. I thought TL had a good ratio of people who would understand the consequences this first steps imply. being german is an advantage on this one  wonder how the current parties in power managed to find useful data to confort their position since it's the 1st thing the machavelians inside the party would do. On August 13 2012 06:01 Spec wrote: good to know people care about me and wonders where I am going today. better not apply as a sensible public servant post... that concerns tons of people who have ambition both in the private and public sector... | ||
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Spec
Taiwan931 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26237 Posts
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