Holy shit big news.Assange really fucked up the USA this time if reports are true, this is no Iraq video or some afghanistan video, its serious business especially for people living in the USA. To give it a bit of background because its connected with Anonymous' hacking one of the most famous intelligence forecasting firms, Stratfor. This is a quote from Wikileaks:
From Wikileaks:
On Monday February 27th, 2012, WikiLeaks began publishing The Global Intelligence Files, over five million e-mails from the Texas headquartered "global intelligence" company Stratfor. The e-mails date between July 2004 and late December 2011. They reveal the inner workings of a company that fronts as an intelligence publisher, but provides confidential intelligence services to large corporations, such as Bhopal's Dow Chemical Co., Lockheed Martin, Northrop Grumman, Raytheon and government agencies, including the US Department of Homeland Security, the US Marines and the US Defence Intelligence Agency. The emails show Stratfor's web of informers, pay-off structure, payment laundering techniques and psychological methods.
So whats so big about these e-mails?
Trapwire:
Quote from Businessinsider.com
Every few seconds, data picked up at surveillance points in major cities and landmarks across the United States are recorded digitally on the spot, then encrypted and instantaneously delivered to a fortified central database center at an undisclosed location to be aggregated with other intelligence. It’s part of a program called TrapWire and it's the brainchild of the Abraxas, a Northern Virginia company staffed with elite from America’s intelligence community.
The employee roster at Arbaxas reads like a who’s who of agents once with the Pentagon, CIA and other government entities according to their public LinkedIn profiles, and the corporation's ties are assumed to go deeper than even documented. The details on Abraxas and, to an even greater extent TrapWire, are scarce, however, and not without reason. For a program touted as a tool to thwart terrorism and monitor activity meant to be under wraps, its understandable that Abraxas would want the program’s public presence to be relatively limited. But thanks to last year’s hack of the Strategic Forecasting intelligence agency, or Stratfor, all of that is quickly changing."
So: those spooky new "circular" dark globe cameras installed in your neighborhood park, town, or city—they aren't just passively monitoring. They're plugged into Trapwire and they are potentially monitoring every single person via facial recognition.
There isn't too much information right now because it just got leaked and how hard it is to access it however..... these are a few sites reporting about it despite them not being too reliable.
This is a quote from the article by a whistleblower who used to work for the NSA. The Utah Data center is basically made to store/analyze data from all intelligence agencies.
Under construction by contractors with top-secret clearances, the blandly named Utah Data Center is being built for the National Security Agency. A project of immense secrecy, it is the final piece in a complex puzzle assembled over the past decade. Its purpose: to intercept, decipher, analyze, and store vast swaths of the world’s communications as they zap down from satellites and zip through the underground and undersea cables of international, foreign, and domestic networks. The heavily fortified $2 billion center should be up and running in September 2013. Flowing through its servers and routers and stored in near-bottomless databases will be all forms of communication, including the complete contents of private emails, cell phone calls, and Google searches, as well as all sorts of personal data trails—parking receipts, travel itineraries, bookstore purchases, and other digital “pocket litter.” It is, in some measure, the realization of the “total information awareness” program created during the first term of the Bush administration—an effort that was killed by Congress in 2003 after it caused an outcry over its potential for invading Americans’ privacy.
Poll:
On August 11 2012 09:29 TotalNightmare wrote: Well I think there is something missing in the OP and for now I will just put the poll here:
Poll: Are you surprised by this?
No, I always suspected it. (448)
70%
No and yes - I am not surprised but I never thought of it. (103)
16%
No, but I thought it wouldn't be that big. (52)
8%
Yes, and I am questioning how something like this could have been unobserved. (16)
3%
Yes and I still dont believe that this is actually true and not just hoax. (14)
2%
Yes, but I wonder how this could happen. (4)
1%
637 total votes
Your vote: Are you surprised by this?
(Vote): No, I always suspected it. (Vote): No, but I thought it wouldn't be that big. (Vote): No and yes - I am not surprised but I never thought of it. (Vote): Yes, but I wonder how this could happen. (Vote): Yes, and I am questioning how something like this could have been unobserved. (Vote): Yes and I still dont believe that this is actually true and not just hoax.
well I cant say im suprised at all.. public surveillance is clearly an inevitable integration of technology in society. I might get a little worried when they start nuking people from orbit with laser satelites but untill then they can watch me all day i dont care.
large corporations, such as Bhopal's Dow Chemical Co., Lockheed Martin, Northrop Grumman, Raytheon and government agencies, including the US Department of Homeland Security, the US Marines and the US Defence Intelligence Agency
According to STRATFOR sources, preliminary, unconfirmed information on an unfolding attack Intercontinental Hotel in Kabul indicates that militans stormed in force out of a vehicle after one suicide bomber detonated a vest at the gate. Meanwhile rumors on the unfolding even indicate at least two VBIEDs may be circling compound waiting to get in
Yes, yes I'll definitely sleep worse at night knowing the government has access to insidious information like.. terrorists plans. .... Bring on the massive conspiracy theory thread!
People need to realize how dangerous it is for liberty, when your government has the information and power to single out and spy on anyone. This isn't about spying on terrorists, it's about spying on everyone all the time.
If true, how is this not big news? Global surveillance with facial recognition? You're fine with someone knowing where you are and what you're doing at every moment? There's absolutely no way any possible terrorist or other threat justifies this gross invasion of privacy, and that's that.
I don't have time to really investigate this now but based on OP, this is terrible, and the most important leak from wikileaks so far.
According to STRATFOR sources, preliminary, unconfirmed information on an unfolding attack Intercontinental Hotel in Kabul indicates that militans stormed in force out of a vehicle after one suicide bomber detonated a vest at the gate. Meanwhile rumors on the unfolding even indicate at least two VBIEDs may be circling compound waiting to get in
Yes, yes I'll definitely sleep worse at night knowing the government has access to insidious information like.. terrorists plans. .... Bring on the massive conspiracy theory thread!
I really dont see what the problem is with facial recognition.. Every human being walking the planet is equipped with it.
well I dont think revealing this trapwire organization is spying on us is as much the problem as...say.. the implications of where they could go next with this kind of "social monitoring"
On August 11 2012 09:03 SergioCQH wrote: Uh, if true, so what? How is this big news?
Never read 1984 I assume?
1984 was a lot more than watching people.
Brick by brick, piece by piece. If we allow little by little of these things then we'll eventually end up somewhere bad. The horrible thing about this is that it is/was kept from the public and not your ordinary CCTV deal. For now, let's just sit back and enjoy the next installment from Alex Jones...
According to STRATFOR sources, preliminary, unconfirmed information on an unfolding attack Intercontinental Hotel in Kabul indicates that militans stormed in force out of a vehicle after one suicide bomber detonated a vest at the gate. Meanwhile rumors on the unfolding even indicate at least two VBIEDs may be circling compound waiting to get in
Yes, yes I'll definitely sleep worse at night knowing the government has access to insidious information like.. terrorists plans. .... Bring on the massive conspiracy theory thread!
On August 11 2012 09:03 Warlock40 wrote: So what's the big deal here? Public surveillance?
Comments like this are actually even worst than what wikileaks revealed. I'm not picking on you guys in particular, but I mean that mentality. Selfish men with power will always abuse it for their own good. Always.
On August 11 2012 09:06 Liquid`Drone wrote: If true, how is this not big news? Global surveillance with facial recognition? You're fine with someone knowing where you are and what you're doing at every moment? There's absolutely no way any possible terrorist or other threat justifies this gross invasion of privacy, and that's that.
I don't have time to really investigate this now but based on OP, this is terrible, and the most important leak from wikileaks so far.
I thought it was known that NSA (National Security Agency) was datamining most electronic data.
"So: those spooky new "circular" dark globe cameras installed in your neighborhood park, town, or city—they aren't just passively monitoring. They're plugged into Trapwire"
This seems a stretch to say every camera is linked. More likely that some cameras are linker. I find the data mining operations to be more concerning.
On August 11 2012 09:06 Liquid`Drone wrote: If true, how is this not big news? Global surveillance with facial recognition? You're fine with someone knowing where you are and what you're doing at every moment? There's absolutely no way any possible terrorist or other threat justifies this gross invasion of privacy, and that's that.
I don't have time to really investigate this now but based on OP, this is terrible, and the most important leak from wikileaks so far.
So it's kinda like owning an iPhone or using sns? It will save people lot of hassle from updating what they ate for lunch on facebook or tweeting what theyre doing every 2 min.
According to STRATFOR sources, preliminary, unconfirmed information on an unfolding attack Intercontinental Hotel in Kabul indicates that militans stormed in force out of a vehicle after one suicide bomber detonated a vest at the gate. Meanwhile rumors on the unfolding even indicate at least two VBIEDs may be circling compound waiting to get in
Yes, yes I'll definitely sleep worse at night knowing the government has access to insidious information like.. terrorists plans. .... Bring on the massive conspiracy theory thread!
On August 11 2012 09:03 Warlock40 wrote: So what's the big deal here? Public surveillance?
Comments like this are actually even worst than what wikileaks revealed. I'm not picking on you guys in particular, but I mean that mentality. Selfish men with power will always abuse it for their own good. Always.
Yeah what I'm actually getting at is the post below yours-
On August 11 2012 09:15 arborealassassin wrote: I thought it was known that NSA (National Security Agency) was datamining most electronic data.
"So: those spooky new "circular" dark globe cameras installed in your neighborhood park, town, or city—they aren't just passively monitoring. They're plugged into Trapwire"
This seems a stretch to say every camera is linked. More likely that some cameras are linker. I find the data mining operations to be more concerning.
Like any of this is new. Even though this is startling and I don't like it, I'm not going to tear down the government and tout that I'm saving everyone without some clear evidence that the government is doing something.. wrong.
I'm a hell of a lot more concerned about private businesses that are unaccountable to the public (for the most part) buying this information.
On August 11 2012 09:13 hifriend wrote: According to the article, it sounds like it's in the US and not global.
I was also kind of unsure at first but I think its global. There is a few e-mails talking about different places such as London, Kabul, China and Albania.
On August 11 2012 09:15 arborealassassin wrote: I thought it was known that NSA (National Security Agency) was datamining most electronic data.
"So: those spooky new "circular" dark globe cameras installed in your neighborhood park, town, or city—they aren't just passively monitoring. They're plugged into Trapwire"
This seems a stretch to say every camera is linked. More likely that some cameras are linker. I find the data mining operations to be more concerning.
The big question is do private actors have access to that information? If I pay enough will they find out who leaked sensitive business information (or possibly the fact that my corporation was breaking some laws) ? Will they help me find anything to discredit them?
Welcome to the Police/Prison State. If you are fine being a prisoner, being watched 24/7, everything you do, everywhere you go, everything you buy, to be intimidated for being against the State, etc. The USA has become one big plantation. So much for being the land of the free with the responses I've seen in this thread. Serfs....so so many serfs on these boards.
On the bright side at least this shows at least some government agencies aren't completely incompetent at what they do! Hooray devious intelligence agencies!
On August 11 2012 09:24 DannyJ wrote: On the bright side at least this shows at least some government agencies aren't completely incompetent at what they do! Hooray devious intelligence agencies!
You know they're competent when immoral national security secrets leak?
On August 11 2012 09:24 DannyJ wrote: On the bright side at least this shows at least some government agencies aren't completely incompetent at what they do! Hooray devious intelligence agencies!
You know they're competent when immoral national security secrets leak?
Welcome to the Police/Prison State. If you are fine being a prisoner, being watched 24/7, everything you do, everywhere you go, everything you buy, to be intimidated for being against the State, etc. The USA has become one big plantation. So much for being the land of the free with the responses I've seen in this thread. Serfs....so so many serfs on these boards.
Don't you all just feel so much safer? Ready to protect, and serve the shit out of you.
lol what is this. I dont mind the police being properly equipped to handle modern combat considering that criminals can easily get assault rifles today.. what do you expect them to do?
On August 11 2012 09:16 kanada wrote: Seems to me that the issue is never actually terrorism and is just the government using terrorism as an excuse to tighten their grip on society.
Reichstag anyone? When has this never not been the case? I would argue the case though that the issue is terrorism...the US Government and it's appendages are the terrorists and we need to be liberated from their tyranny...
The sheep always think they're safe and nothing's the matter until they are the ones chosen for slaughter. Then comes the bah-ing. There's a reason the world is the way it is.
Well I think there is something missing in the OP and for now I will just put the poll here:
Poll: Are you surprised by this?
No, I always suspected it. (448)
70%
No and yes - I am not surprised but I never thought of it. (103)
16%
No, but I thought it wouldn't be that big. (52)
8%
Yes, and I am questioning how something like this could have been unobserved. (16)
3%
Yes and I still dont believe that this is actually true and not just hoax. (14)
2%
Yes, but I wonder how this could happen. (4)
1%
637 total votes
Your vote: Are you surprised by this?
(Vote): No, I always suspected it. (Vote): No, but I thought it wouldn't be that big. (Vote): No and yes - I am not surprised but I never thought of it. (Vote): Yes, but I wonder how this could happen. (Vote): Yes, and I am questioning how something like this could have been unobserved. (Vote): Yes and I still dont believe that this is actually true and not just hoax.
I did my best to add every option that was necessary, maybe I even suceeded. If it gets added to the OP feel free to add options. I myself am hardly surprised. As soon as the technology to do something is there, it gets done. The real question is (At least for me): Will it stay?
If i were US citizen, i´d be protesting tomorrow in Washington D.C. And i don´t mean this as a phrase to express my anger, but as an appeal. Indignez-vous!
On August 11 2012 09:29 TotalNightmare wrote: Well I think there is something missing in the OP and for now I will just put the poll here:
I did my best to add every option that was necessary, maybe I even suceeded. If it gets added to the OP feel free to add options. I myself am hardly surprised. As soon as the technology to do something is there, it gets done. The real question is (At least for me): Will it stay?
Wrong question. You should be asking if people support it or not.
On August 11 2012 09:29 TotalNightmare wrote: Well I think there is something missing in the OP and for now I will just put the poll here:
I did my best to add every option that was necessary, maybe I even suceeded. If it gets added to the OP feel free to add options. I myself am hardly surprised. As soon as the technology to do something is there, it gets done. The real question is (At least for me): Will it stay?
Wrong question. You should be asking if people support it or not.
I don't support it! I'm not sure I even want to see the results if people support it or not though~
I'm never sure how I feel when I read these kinds of posts. Like sure it sucks to not have as much privacy as you'd like, but what really can you do about it?
On August 11 2012 09:29 TotalNightmare wrote: Well I think there is something missing in the OP and for now I will just put the poll here:
I did my best to add every option that was necessary, maybe I even suceeded. If it gets added to the OP feel free to add options. I myself am hardly surprised. As soon as the technology to do something is there, it gets done. The real question is (At least for me): Will it stay?
Wrong question. You should be asking if people support it or not.
How could any sane person support this kind of police state? Sure, we're talking about the USA, the biggest pile of patriots on this planet, a country that doesnt even have a propper school system but that doesnt stop people from wanting to be free and all that right? I highly doubt that there are more than 10% of people that are stupid enough to think this is good.
On August 11 2012 09:33 AgentChaos wrote: lol i bet uk doesnt have this shit (we are too poor)
even if we did, what does it matter?
Is everyone who is worried about "being spied on" so self deluded to think that their government or anyone that doesn't know them directly could give a flying fuck what they do? I certainly am not. My government couldn't care less what I'm doing unless I am doing one of the following:
1) Breaking laws 2) Not paying taxes
Monitor me all you want, if I get caught doing something I shouldn't have been doing in the first place then I have no one but myself to blame.
Its the same old story, every generation since time began has felt oppressed by their government and every previous generation tells them how it was better in the old days, just like when older people say "kids respected their elders in my day" its all bullshit... it was exactly the same, just with worse technology.
Please get it through your heads, no one cares what you do unless you are doing something wrong. If cameras and datamining help deter, prevent or catch people breaking laws then they are doing their job and those who stay within the law have nothing to fear. The old "slippery slope" argument is beyond stupid, the government can't arrest you for staying within the law and if they did, YOU HAVE THE VIDEO EVIDENCE TO PROVE YOURSELF INNOCENT since ofc they have everything on CCTV and backed up on fortified HDDs......
You people should check up on the camera's set up in London's olympic city. Facial recognition and enough cameras to more or less keep tabs on any person at any moment :-O. It is scary times when we slowly give up more and more of our privacy in the name of security. It is a waste of money and can be abused by whoever has the authority.
I don't hope this thread will be littered with insane conspiracy diarrhea, these subjects sadly don't stay sober for long :-/.
Edit:
On August 11 2012 09:33 AgentChaos wrote: lol i bet uk doesnt have this shit (we are too poor)
Don't the UK have the highest amount of cameras / citizen (atleast in London)? :-O.
Shit like this brings out the crazies on both sides of the coin. Some people take it too far and go all hippie "they're trying to police your thoughts, man!". Some don't go far enough "Who cares? They're just trying to protect us."
It's good to have a healthy suspicion of things like this, but if your opinion is polarised one way or the other it's probably... of little use.
My reaction to this is mostly negative; I don't think the benefits of the system (finding missing persons quicker, finding suspects quicker) are worth the trade off. This seems too invasive.
The problem is to many people just don't give a shit, they've been told what to do forever, why give a shit? Freedom doesn't just go away with the snap of a finger, its one terrorist attack so they can check your ball sack just incase you might be hiding a bomb, or one homicide so they keep tabs on everyone just incase. So now? Everyone prefers security over freedom, its pretty gross, but whatever right? What... ever...
If this is as bad as it seems it's pretty bad. Something like this really only stops terrorism and it stops it even more if you don't let the public know about it. Right.. Maybe I should go and read up on some conspiracy theories or something.
On August 11 2012 09:33 AgentChaos wrote: lol i bet uk doesnt have this shit (we are too poor)
even if we did, what does it matter?
Is everyone who is worried about "being spied on" so self deluded to think that their government or anyone that doesn't know them directly could give a flying fuck what they do? I certainly am not. My government couldn't care less what I'm doing unless I am doing one of the following:
1) Breaking laws 2) Not paying taxes
Monitor me all you want, if I get caught doing something I shouldn't have been doing in the first place then I have no one but myself to blame.
Its the same old story, every generation since time began has felt oppressed by their government and every previous generation tells them how it was better in the old days, just like when older people say "kids respected their elders in my day" its all bullshit... it was exactly the same, just with worse technology.
Please get it through your heads, no one cares what you do unless you are doing something wrong. If cameras and datamining help deter, prevent or catch people breaking laws then they are doing their job and those who stay within the law have nothing to fear. The old "slippery slope" argument is beyond stupid, the government can't arrest you for staying within the law and if they did, YOU HAVE THE VIDEO EVIDENCE TO PROVE YOURSELF INNOCENT since ofc they have everything on CCTV and backed up on fortified HDDs......
And when the people in charge decide to abuse the power an authority you let them have without protest, what then? People should have a right to privacy.
Wait, the cameras I see are recording data??? Great revelation again wikileaks...
Seriously wikileaks should just shut up, they've only caused trouble, and once again are trying to make a big deal out of nothing, that SECURITY cameras can record data on you should be pretty obvious, and if they see you buying bomb parts or dealing heroin, that is just as valid as if they catch you mugging someone. People shouldn't freak out when they're being monitored in public, that doesn't mean "HOLY **** 1984 is happening in my country!"
On August 11 2012 09:48 Flakes wrote: People really give our government too much credit. Usually when they hurt innocent civilians it's because of incompetency, not some evil master plan.
Incompetence is usually more dangerous than evil, as evil tends towards pragmatism.
On August 11 2012 09:46 DarkInfinity wrote: Wait, the cameras I see are recording data??? Great revelation again wikileaks...
Seriously wikileaks should just shut up, they've only caused trouble, and once again are trying to make a big deal out of nothing, that SECURITY cameras can record data on you should be pretty obvious, and if they see you buying bomb parts or dealing heroin, that is just as valid as if they catch you mugging someone. People shouldn't freak out when they're being monitored in public, that doesn't mean "HOLY **** 1984 is happening in my country!"
It's not the fact that the cameras are monitoring you, it's who the cameras are sending the data too, and what they are doing with it -_-.
lol your all acting like they are going house to house installing cameras in every room. its public spaces being monitered. I could go moniter the shit they are monitering myself if I wanted. so why shouldnt they be able to?
On August 11 2012 09:46 DarkInfinity wrote: Wait, the cameras I see are recording data??? Great revelation again wikileaks...
Seriously wikileaks should just shut up, they've only caused trouble, and once again are trying to make a big deal out of nothing, that SECURITY cameras can record data on you should be pretty obvious, and if they see you buying bomb parts or dealing heroin, that is just as valid as if they catch you mugging someone. People shouldn't freak out when they're being monitored in public, that doesn't mean "HOLY **** 1984 is happening in my country!"
It's not the fact that the cameras are monitoring you, you moron, it's who the cameras are sending the data too, and what they are doing with it -_-.
Is it not their right to do as they wish in a public space?
Must the tree of liberty be watered so soon after our last civil war? Tbh I have bigger problems than some government lackey peeping tom watching me watch internet porn. However, my pitchfork is ready and by my side just in case my government does get a little too out of hand..
From: davidharvey13th@yahoo.com Date: April 14, 2009 3:25:30 AM CDT To: responses@stratfor.com Subject: [Analytical & Intelligence Comments] RE: Cuba Reply-To: Responses List
David Harvey sent a message using the contact form at https://www.stratfor.com/contact. Dear Richard, I always wondered what the fuss was about in Cuba, now I know. Much like Ireland was to England and France. However, I am not worried about the wars of other countries as they are all controlled by the foreign rich trillionaire bankers of the Rothchild's Illuminati, to kill 6.2 of 6.7 billion of the world's population to leave the rich 500 million slaves, in the name of Sustainable Development. Now that really concerns me that our government, which was elected to defend us against foreigners attacking us and charging custom and duty taxes to foreigners, is going to use laws created by the Illuminati to give up our sovereignty as a nation and as states in order to kill us by fraudulent claims of a bird flu virus that was benign to humans as an excuse to murder 80% of the US population. On another topic, what is your analysis on the Rothchild's Illuminati, Bilderberg Group, Trilateral Commission, and Council of Foreign Relations, in their efforts to form a One World Government or New World Order, by controlling the US and all its citizens through the bought and paid for politicians by means of the lobbyists of corporations, the DHS, the IRS, the DIS, the Dept of Treasury, the Federal Reserve Board - a private foreign bank of Rothchild's Illuminati? They have taken the dollar off the gold standard in order to inflate and deflate the dollar and thereby creating overt an covert taxation, which will have the knock on effect of causing recessions and depressions, causing bankruptcies, foreclosures, gas crisis, housing crisis, credit crisis, which all involve a national security risk of immense proportions. They must break a few eggs to make an omelet, or in others words, they must ruin all national governments, including the US, in order for the Illuminati to take over the world's countries and make them into the One World Government, One World Religion, and One World Monetary System do that they can control all the world's people. Either way, the FEMA will use some natural or man-made excuse to declare martial law, deport all of American's citizens to go to detention camps, and be forced to take this weaponized vaccine to kill us off, one way or another. Already I have obtained 1000 military manuals of the US from www.spectergroup.com at $18 in order to know my enemy, see how they think, and avoid, escape or evade them by some means, such as heading for the hills as the Jews and Cherokees did, or by going to another country before all hell breaks loose. I plan to use such military manuals to live off the land, (survival) apart from the dollar dominated government that wishes to subjugate us by denying us freedom, food, health care and other benefits, necessary in today's modern world. If the epidemic or natural disaster does not take down the US citizens, the war between the foodless, homeless, jobless (have-nots) against the stores and businesses (haves) will surely call FEMA to declare Martial Law. Either way we are screwed one and all. I am sure you have read the Baxter Pharmaceuticals have attempted to cause the weaponized Avian Flu Virus to be released in six European Countries in order to cause an epidemic that would give rise for FEMA to cut off all transportation and declare Martial Law as a consequence. Then we have the Executive Branch assuming powers that they do not have under the US Constitution and the Legislative branch kowtowing to the President's threat of Martial Law, the the Judicial Branch making law from the bench. I would be most interested in your take in all this. Also, which country should a real patriot go to in order to avoid the coming financial, man-made avian flu virus epidemic, now that H5N1 has been modified with the human virus H1N3 to become weaponized, which with the Model State Medical Emergency Powers Act of 2008 by Bush, would force all Americans, by FEMA declaring Martial Law to be deported to detention centers for involuntary vaccination or face unlimited quarantine and forfeiture of all property and at the point of guns from our own anti-Posse Comitatus military. Why for God's sake is no one screaming at the top of their lungs and the impending Tsunami that is before us and try to amorealate the consequences of it before it happens? Am I the only conspiracy theory wacko that foresees all this? What say you to this? I am truly sorry I cannot afford to subscribe to your excellent info, as a totally and permanently disabled vet, who is 21K below the poverty level. But I do pay attention to all you have said and I do tell others of it. Afterall, if there is anyone who could pull our fat out of the fire, it would be the Watchman on the Tower as in Ezekiel 3:17-21, (YOU), to allow those trained or who wish to be trained and led out of this impending morass of doom against an Axis and Empire of World Evil, the Rothchild's, UN New World Order. We cannot stop them, but maybe we could slow them down a little to give others a chance to run to the hills, as the FEMA led goons will imprison all the citizens in 48 hours from declaraion of martial law. David Harvey Vietnam Vet, Paralegal, ex-LE, & Christian Patriot Columbus, Ohio, USA, formerly Odessa Ukraine where I wrote to you before. Source: http://us.mg1.mail.yahoo.com/dc/launch?.gx=1&.rand=eanqhla5ji6t9
On August 11 2012 09:33 Cele wrote: If i were US citizen, i´d be protesting tomorrow in Washington D.C. And i don´t mean this as a phrase to express my anger, but as an appeal. Indignez-vous!
Wouldn't that be great. The day after this news breaks out, trillions of dollars are made by US corporate industry as everybody buys plane tickets to Washington D.C.
Would be nice to do an online protest, like we did for SOPA.
For the record, the bolded is the part that should concern people:
On Monday February 27th, 2012, WikiLeaks began publishing The Global Intelligence Files, over five million e-mails from the Texas headquartered "global intelligence" company Stratfor. The e-mails date between July 2004 and late December 2011. They reveal the inner workings of a company that fronts as an intelligence publisher, but provides confidential intelligence services to large corporations, such as Bhopal's Dow Chemical Co., Lockheed Martin, Northrop Grumman, Raytheon and government agencies, including the US Department of Homeland Security, the US Marines and the US Defence Intelligence Agency. The emails show Stratfor's web of informers, pay-off structure, payment laundering techniques and psychological methods.
It's not the government you really need to be concerned about.
On August 11 2012 09:33 AgentChaos wrote: lol i bet uk doesnt have this shit (we are too poor)
even if we did, what does it matter?
Is everyone who is worried about "being spied on" so self deluded to think that their government or anyone that doesn't know them directly could give a flying fuck what they do? I certainly am not. My government couldn't care less what I'm doing unless I am doing one of the following:
1) Breaking laws 2) Not paying taxes
Monitor me all you want, if I get caught doing something I shouldn't have been doing in the first place then I have no one but myself to blame.
Its the same old story, every generation since time began has felt oppressed by their government and every previous generation tells them how it was better in the old days, just like when older people say "kids respected their elders in my day" its all bullshit... it was exactly the same, just with worse technology.
Please get it through your heads, no one cares what you do unless you are doing something wrong. If cameras and datamining help deter, prevent or catch people breaking laws then they are doing their job and those who stay within the law have nothing to fear. The old "slippery slope" argument is beyond stupid, the government can't arrest you for staying within the law and if they did, YOU HAVE THE VIDEO EVIDENCE TO PROVE YOURSELF INNOCENT since ofc they have everything on CCTV and backed up on fortified HDDs......
I don't think anyone is saying that the US govt is particularly oppressive, but you sure as hell better hope it stays that way because most of the tools are seemingly in place for creating a surveillance state a million times more effective than Stasi. You seem very confident that a government can't change for the worse though. Cool. Nvm history and stuff.
On August 11 2012 09:33 AgentChaos wrote: lol i bet uk doesnt have this shit (we are too poor)
even if we did, what does it matter?
Is everyone who is worried about "being spied on" so self deluded to think that their government or anyone that doesn't know them directly could give a flying fuck what they do? I certainly am not. My government couldn't care less what I'm doing unless I am doing one of the following:
1) Breaking laws 2) Not paying taxes
Monitor me all you want, if I get caught doing something I shouldn't have been doing in the first place then I have no one but myself to blame.
No offence, but that seems to be a bit of a naive point of view for someone in who's country you can get arrested for not smiling when the police expects you to smile (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/aug/08/olympics-spectator-parkinsons-arrest-smiling). Surveillance infrastructures that can be abused will be abused/missused - either because of stupidity or because of efforts to gain/sustain positions of power (see the blocking of the internet in a lot of europe for example - though the scapegoat in that case is usually "internet child pornography industry" [that doesn't exist] and not terrorism).
On August 11 2012 09:48 Flakes wrote: People really give our government too much credit. Usually when they hurt innocent civilians it's because of incompetency, not some evil master plan.
In America, it's the private corporations you have to watch out for.
That's a nice slogan to include in a pamphlet but it's not entirely true. Sure it's not an evil master plan, but individuals with varying degrees of power (ranging from small times bureaucrats and police offers to governors, congressmen and sometimes the president) are fully capable of doing deeply immoral things. Of course, it's not necessarily part of an overarching scheme. The government of the US is responsible for all kinds of atrocities.
And with a machine as big and complex as the US, sometimes incompetence is just as damaging as evil.
On August 11 2012 09:33 Cele wrote: If i were US citizen, i´d be protesting tomorrow in Washington D.C. And i don´t mean this as a phrase to express my anger, but as an appeal. Indignez-vous!
Wouldn't that be great. The day after this news breaks out, trillions of dollars are made by US corporate industry as everybody buys plane tickets to Washington D.C.
Would be nice to do an online protest, like we did for SOPA.
Trillions of dollars in a day? That's adorable u liek a littul puppy awh<<333
On August 11 2012 09:46 DarkInfinity wrote: Wait, the cameras I see are recording data??? Great revelation again wikileaks...
Seriously wikileaks should just shut up, they've only caused trouble, and once again are trying to make a big deal out of nothing, that SECURITY cameras can record data on you should be pretty obvious, and if they see you buying bomb parts or dealing heroin, that is just as valid as if they catch you mugging someone. People shouldn't freak out when they're being monitored in public, that doesn't mean "HOLY **** 1984 is happening in my country!"
It's not the fact that the cameras are monitoring you, you moron, it's who the cameras are sending the data too, and what they are doing with it -_-.
Is it not their right to do as they wish in a public space?
Legally, it depends on your interpretation of reasonable expectation of privacy (at least in the U.S.). I don't think private corporations recording data on people all over the planet every time they step out in public qualifies as within normal expectations.
large corporations, such as Bhopal's Dow Chemical Co., Lockheed Martin, Northrop Grumman, Raytheon and government agencies, including the US Department of Homeland Security, the US Marines and the US Defence Intelligence Agency
wow seriously? is nobody pissed off by this? i don't give a fuck if homeland security, DoD, or the Marines watch over me. but Dow Chemicals? even Lockheed, Northrop, and Raytheon. these guys should not get access to the data no matter how chummy they are with the defense/intelligence sector. let the FBI feed them intel but dont funnel it in directly. private entities shouldn't unilaterally be allowed access into our private lives.
On August 11 2012 09:42 JKM wrote: You people should check up on the camera's set up in London's olympic city. Facial recognition and enough cameras to more or less keep tabs on any person at any moment :-O. It is scary times when we slowly give up more and more of our privacy in the name of security. It is a waste of money and can be abused by whoever has the authority.
I don't hope this thread will be littered with insane conspiracy diarrhea, these subjects sadly don't stay sober for long :-/.
On Monday February 27th, 2012, WikiLeaks began publishing The Global Intelligence Files, over five million e-mails from the Texas headquartered "global intelligence" company Stratfor. The e-mails date between July 2004 and late December 2011. They reveal the inner workings of a company that fronts as an intelligence publisher, but provides confidential intelligence services to large corporations, such as Bhopal's Dow Chemical Co., Lockheed Martin, Northrop Grumman, Raytheon and government agencies, including the US Department of Homeland Security, the US Marines and the US Defence Intelligence Agency. The emails show Stratfor's web of informers, pay-off structure, payment laundering techniques and psychological methods.
It's not the government you really need to be concerned about.
Yup. Its the people who have our government in their pocket who are the problem. Politicians are just a face, nothing more.
On August 11 2012 09:46 DarkInfinity wrote: Wait, the cameras I see are recording data??? Great revelation again wikileaks...
Seriously wikileaks should just shut up, they've only caused trouble, and once again are trying to make a big deal out of nothing, that SECURITY cameras can record data on you should be pretty obvious, and if they see you buying bomb parts or dealing heroin, that is just as valid as if they catch you mugging someone. People shouldn't freak out when they're being monitored in public, that doesn't mean "HOLY **** 1984 is happening in my country!"
It's not the fact that the cameras are monitoring you, you moron, it's who the cameras are sending the data too, and what they are doing with it -_-.
Is it not their right to do as they wish in a public space?
Legally, it depends on your interpretation of reasonable expectation of privacy (at least in the U.S.). I don't think private corporations recording data on people all over the planet every time they step out in public qualifies as within normal expectations.
That's a good point, actually. Time to do some reading on this subject.
On August 11 2012 09:51 ilikeredheads wrote: Freedom isn't free. The US government is there to serve large private corporations, not the general public.
Canadian government to my friend, no need to point fingers.
On August 11 2012 09:48 Flakes wrote: People really give our government too much credit. Usually when they hurt innocent civilians it's because of incompetency, not some evil master plan.
In America, it's the private corporations you have to watch out for.
That's a nice slogan to include in a pamphlet but it's not entirely true. Sure it's not an evil master plan, but individuals with varying degrees of power (ranging from small times bureaucrats and police offers to governors, congressmen and sometimes the president) are fully capable of doing deeply immoral things. Of course, it's not necessarily part of an overarching scheme. The government of the US is responsible for all kinds of atrocities.
And with a machine as big and complex as the US, sometimes incompetence is just as damaging as evil.
On August 11 2012 09:33 Cele wrote: If i were US citizen, i´d be protesting tomorrow in Washington D.C. And i don´t mean this as a phrase to express my anger, but as an appeal. Indignez-vous!
Wouldn't that be great. The day after this news breaks out, trillions of dollars are made by US corporate industry as everybody buys plane tickets to Washington D.C.
Would be nice to do an online protest, like we did for SOPA.
Trillions of dollars in a day? That's adorable u liek a littul puppy awh<<333
Well lets see. 350 million citizens in the US. Cost of flying to Washington DC and getting a cheap place to stay for a night on short notice is probably 500-600 dollars as a rough estimate. Really it would be more, as the prices would skyrocket as everyone buys tickets.
That would be several hundred billion dollars as a conservative estimate.
Not to mention it was a joke, and you are a hateful person with no sense of humor.
On August 11 2012 09:54 Whitewing wrote: For the record, the bolded is the part that should concern people:
On Monday February 27th, 2012, WikiLeaks began publishing The Global Intelligence Files, over five million e-mails from the Texas headquartered "global intelligence" company Stratfor. The e-mails date between July 2004 and late December 2011. They reveal the inner workings of a company that fronts as an intelligence publisher, but provides confidential intelligence services to large corporations, such as Bhopal's Dow Chemical Co., Lockheed Martin, Northrop Grumman, Raytheon and government agencies, including the US Department of Homeland Security, the US Marines and the US Defence Intelligence Agency. The emails show Stratfor's web of informers, pay-off structure, payment laundering techniques and psychological methods.
It's not the government you really need to be concerned about.
Yup. Its the people who have our government in their pocket who are the problem. Politicians are just a face, nothing more.
That's not true FYI. The lobbyists have a lot of power but to say that politicians are "just a face" is to grossly exaggerate the situation.
On August 11 2012 09:48 Flakes wrote: People really give our government too much credit. Usually when they hurt innocent civilians it's because of incompetency, not some evil master plan.
In America, it's the private corporations you have to watch out for.
That's a nice slogan to include in a pamphlet but it's not entirely true. Sure it's not an evil master plan, but individuals with varying degrees of power (ranging from small times bureaucrats and police offers to governors, congressmen and sometimes the president) are fully capable of doing deeply immoral things. Of course, it's not necessarily part of an overarching scheme. The government of the US is responsible for all kinds of atrocities.
And with a machine as big and complex as the US, sometimes incompetence is just as damaging as evil.
Of course incompetence is worse, it usually means our tax dollars end up getting thrown in a big hole in the ground, instead of going to some corporate fatcat where it at least has the chance of trickling down
My post was mostly in response to the inaccurate perceptions of our government by conspiracy theorists and some non-Americans. Really the reason Americans are so lazy about activism is because of our bloated bureaucracy, not totalitarian brainwashing.
On August 11 2012 09:06 Liquid`Drone wrote: If true, how is this not big news? Global surveillance with facial recognition? You're fine with someone knowing where you are and what you're doing at every moment? There's absolutely no way any possible terrorist or other threat justifies this gross invasion of privacy, and that's that.
I don't have time to really investigate this now but based on OP, this is terrible, and the most important leak from wikileaks so far.
Thank you. People's disregard for their own privacy is just insane -_-.
And btw this is obviously coming from someone who's probably monitored 24/7 in London. We all know the Franklin quote so I won't bother repeating it, but I really can't see how this can be justified.
On August 11 2012 09:48 Flakes wrote: People really give our government too much credit. Usually when they hurt innocent civilians it's because of incompetency, not some evil master plan.
In America, it's the private corporations you have to watch out for.
That's a nice slogan to include in a pamphlet but it's not entirely true. Sure it's not an evil master plan, but individuals with varying degrees of power (ranging from small times bureaucrats and police offers to governors, congressmen and sometimes the president) are fully capable of doing deeply immoral things. Of course, it's not necessarily part of an overarching scheme. The government of the US is responsible for all kinds of atrocities.
And with a machine as big and complex as the US, sometimes incompetence is just as damaging as evil.
On August 11 2012 09:54 Ketara wrote:
On August 11 2012 09:33 Cele wrote: If i were US citizen, i´d be protesting tomorrow in Washington D.C. And i don´t mean this as a phrase to express my anger, but as an appeal. Indignez-vous!
Wouldn't that be great. The day after this news breaks out, trillions of dollars are made by US corporate industry as everybody buys plane tickets to Washington D.C.
Would be nice to do an online protest, like we did for SOPA.
Trillions of dollars in a day? That's adorable u liek a littul puppy awh<<333
Well lets see. 350 million citizens in the US. Cost of flying to Washington DC and getting a cheap place to stay for a night on short notice is probably 500-600 dollars as a rough estimate. Really it would be more, as the prices would skyrocket as everyone buys tickets.
That would be several hundred billion dollars as a conservative estimate.
Not to mention it was a joke, and you are a hateful person with no sense of humor.
It wasn't hateful, I like puppies. But if you'll talk about the numbers, you need enough planes for all those people, and then you need to land those planes somewhere ^^
On August 11 2012 10:09 CajunMan wrote: As long as this is public and not spying on people in the people's private homes it doesn't really matter for the most part.
You feel that your rights should evaporate as soon as you leave the house?
On August 11 2012 09:54 McFeser wrote: What the fuck is this about? + Show Spoiler +
From: davidharvey13th@yahoo.com Date: April 14, 2009 3:25:30 AM CDT To: responses@stratfor.com Subject: [Analytical & Intelligence Comments] RE: Cuba Reply-To: Responses List
David Harvey sent a message using the contact form at https://www.stratfor.com/contact. Dear Richard, I always wondered what the fuss was about in Cuba, now I know. Much like Ireland was to England and France. However, I am not worried about the wars of other countries as they are all controlled by the foreign rich trillionaire bankers of the Rothchild's Illuminati, to kill 6.2 of 6.7 billion of the world's population to leave the rich 500 million slaves, in the name of Sustainable Development. Now that really concerns me that our government, which was elected to defend us against foreigners attacking us and charging custom and duty taxes to foreigners, is going to use laws created by the Illuminati to give up our sovereignty as a nation and as states in order to kill us by fraudulent claims of a bird flu virus that was benign to humans as an excuse to murder 80% of the US population. On another topic, what is your analysis on the Rothchild's Illuminati, Bilderberg Group, Trilateral Commission, and Council of Foreign Relations, in their efforts to form a One World Government or New World Order, by controlling the US and all its citizens through the bought and paid for politicians by means of the lobbyists of corporations, the DHS, the IRS, the DIS, the Dept of Treasury, the Federal Reserve Board - a private foreign bank of Rothchild's Illuminati? They have taken the dollar off the gold standard in order to inflate and deflate the dollar and thereby creating overt an covert taxation, which will have the knock on effect of causing recessions and depressions, causing bankruptcies, foreclosures, gas crisis, housing crisis, credit crisis, which all involve a national security risk of immense proportions. They must break a few eggs to make an omelet, or in others words, they must ruin all national governments, including the US, in order for the Illuminati to take over the world's countries and make them into the One World Government, One World Religion, and One World Monetary System do that they can control all the world's people. Either way, the FEMA will use some natural or man-made excuse to declare martial law, deport all of American's citizens to go to detention camps, and be forced to take this weaponized vaccine to kill us off, one way or another. Already I have obtained 1000 military manuals of the US from www.spectergroup.com at $18 in order to know my enemy, see how they think, and avoid, escape or evade them by some means, such as heading for the hills as the Jews and Cherokees did, or by going to another country before all hell breaks loose. I plan to use such military manuals to live off the land, (survival) apart from the dollar dominated government that wishes to subjugate us by denying us freedom, food, health care and other benefits, necessary in today's modern world. If the epidemic or natural disaster does not take down the US citizens, the war between the foodless, homeless, jobless (have-nots) against the stores and businesses (haves) will surely call FEMA to declare Martial Law. Either way we are screwed one and all. I am sure you have read the Baxter Pharmaceuticals have attempted to cause the weaponized Avian Flu Virus to be released in six European Countries in order to cause an epidemic that would give rise for FEMA to cut off all transportation and declare Martial Law as a consequence. Then we have the Executive Branch assuming powers that they do not have under the US Constitution and the Legislative branch kowtowing to the President's threat of Martial Law, the the Judicial Branch making law from the bench. I would be most interested in your take in all this. Also, which country should a real patriot go to in order to avoid the coming financial, man-made avian flu virus epidemic, now that H5N1 has been modified with the human virus H1N3 to become weaponized, which with the Model State Medical Emergency Powers Act of 2008 by Bush, would force all Americans, by FEMA declaring Martial Law to be deported to detention centers for involuntary vaccination or face unlimited quarantine and forfeiture of all property and at the point of guns from our own anti-Posse Comitatus military. Why for God's sake is no one screaming at the top of their lungs and the impending Tsunami that is before us and try to amorealate the consequences of it before it happens? Am I the only conspiracy theory wacko that foresees all this? What say you to this? I am truly sorry I cannot afford to subscribe to your excellent info, as a totally and permanently disabled vet, who is 21K below the poverty level. But I do pay attention to all you have said and I do tell others of it. Afterall, if there is anyone who could pull our fat out of the fire, it would be the Watchman on the Tower as in Ezekiel 3:17-21, (YOU), to allow those trained or who wish to be trained and led out of this impending morass of doom against an Axis and Empire of World Evil, the Rothchild's, UN New World Order. We cannot stop them, but maybe we could slow them down a little to give others a chance to run to the hills, as the FEMA led goons will imprison all the citizens in 48 hours from declaraion of martial law. David Harvey Vietnam Vet, Paralegal, ex-LE, & Christian Patriot Columbus, Ohio, USA, formerly Odessa Ukraine where I wrote to you before. Source: http://us.mg1.mail.yahoo.com/dc/launch?.gx=1&.rand=eanqhla5ji6t9
It's pretty obvious. Some retarded conspiracy theorist who likes to post on the internet decided to send them an email. By simply googling his email account I found another "conspiracy" deal on this really shitty blog. He says
So true, but you have only scratched the surface of the liars, the thieves,
the illegal yet legal business deals, political buy-ins and pay offs.
Bascically the Jewish banksters are the ants and we are the aphids they milk the sugar water from,
and the rose we live on is at their behest.
We are slaves and have no right to property.
The police are there to protect the property of the rich, not the rights of the poor.
We are screwed,
I can’t wait to see this world end with Jesus returns.
Actually, it's quite cool how easy it is to find information on someone just by using an email address. From viewing his yahoo profile, I found out he lives in Columbus, OH. I'm sure I could find his telephone number and adress after a bit more of searching because this guy seems to be incredibly prolific across the web.
Found more information: this guy is too brave with his postings on the net. I found his IP address where I also found this
My name is David Harvey. I live in Columbus, Ohio. I am married and 56 years old. I too have been in a terrible accident. The truth from the US Air Force that I broke my nose, damaged my brain, and broke my neck was hidden from me for 32 years. I have many health problems from this accident in a car. Thank God I do have a loving wife and I did not die trying to save my first wife’s life, but I was not recommended for promotion or re-enlistment.
The last thing you need is to be bereft of all friends and family. I wish to be your email friend. If you need a friend, I am here at [BLANKED OUT BY ADMINISTRATOR]
When we die, all we have left to take with us is our good name, and the love of our friends and family. We cannot dwell on the past and must accept those things we cannot change. But the best weapon is the mighty pen or in this case the internet. I once had a beautiful wife, 3 kids, and a good job, now I have no material possessions to speak of, 25 medications to take a day, I suffer in pain daily, and I do have a new and loving wife.
You and I have the time to sort out the truth by the Internet and by prayer and some common sense. I have sold the TV as I do not wish to be brain washed by the bankers propaganda. I have spent my time searching for the absolute truth of Bible and how that relates to the news on the Internet, and I find that they do relate positively.
We are slaves of the system and most do not even see or understand it.
It is our task with the time we have left to educate the masses as to their truth situation of enslavement, but the powers that own the gold. The Golden Rule is, “He that has the gold makes the rules.” By this rule they rule supreme over us as they have stolen our birth right from God to be free, independent, and have liberty from men’s rule as subjects of the one and true God. They wish to be our God, and we cannot give in to this. Better dead than red or a vassal of a banker or politician who has no morales.
I do believe we are on the same page.
I read your article about your muscle car and could heartily relate to it. I felt the same about my 750 cc Kawasake with a racing ignition and full Vetter fairing.
I once was strong, a body builder, with a 140 IQ and a near photographic memory, but now my memory is like Swiss chese and comes and goes and now only have a 100 IQ. The miltiary which caused my accident has for 32 years denied my injuries as they do not want to pay out for such.
The pain from my injuries has affected my sleep patterns, I have none, my ability to think, recall, remember, organize, and act emotionally appropriate. I have PTSD and TBI, they will not give to me the TBI diagnosis, but I do have such by the symptoms alone. I am extremely sensitive to pain now and that requires many drugs, which have terrible side effects and further damages my body. I pray to God each day that he will promote me to glory, but few can see my internal injuries, nor do they connect they with my accident. By calling me a liar they have stolen my honor and intergrity. I have lost all my blood family, my former wife and our 3 kids due to this accident and my ability to work gainfully. This is a huge loss to my self esteem. I could walk 5 to 10 miles, but my heart has had 3 heart attacks, 2 heart failures and one kidney failure, due to the high blood pressure and diabetes as a result of the pain and lack of sleep, and major depression.
I want you to know, you are not alone in this world. I too see the the lies and evil doings of the Illuminati to make our free countries into slave camps. I feel helpless to address this. I am unable to fight them physically or live on my own without their damn drugs, insulin, pain pills, sleeping pills, anti-depression pills, heart pills and so forth. For if I did, they could cut me off as they will surely do when the Universal Health Care take full effect, since I am over 50 years old and do not work, I am a useless eater according to Hitler.
I have read several of your articles and agree with all that I have read. Keep on doing as you are doing, venting your anger at these bums is the first step of getting well emotionally. Informing the public is one way of taking back your life and preventing such from happening to others.
It is a shame you do not have the love and affection of a wife and kids to aid you in this matter, but even if you did, as I had, they might have left you, being that pain and depression can put others who love you off.
I will pray for you my friend and hope you will do so for me, for the Great Physician can be of assistance in healing and adjusting our feelings and reactions to this. It is this hope in God that gets me through each and every day or I would have finished the job they started on me long ago.
I guess it all boils down to the fact that he is upset with the government for not giving him what he wants, so he has turned to conspiracy theories like so many other people that hate or fear the government. It's incredibly cool how much information you can find out about someone with a simple email address: no wonder anyone with basic knowledge of computers and the internet can be so influential.
Everyone who is referring to the 1984 here clearly never finished it or just simply did not understand a single sentence I suppose. Also, all the master plans of world destruction/occupation are not true for one simple reason. If US wanted every possible resource they would've already occupied Saudi Arabia, Canada and every other country that they want.
On August 11 2012 09:51 ilikeredheads wrote: Freedom isn't free. The US government is there to serve large private corporations, not the general public.
Since when was freedom not free...? That definitely makes no sense.
Not surprising. Even if you record everything, how are you gonna manage all the data? The average Joe shouldn't be too worried because there's simply not enough manpower to keep close tabs on everyone. There could be some interception of keywords in emails and calls like "bomb" for example, but that will create a ton of false positives and any unsavory elements can cover up their tracks too..
To understand the logistics of this, think about the 7/7 London bombings. The UK authorities spent thousands of man-hours to trawl through CCTV footage of the terrorists. This was only possible because the CCTV footage was recent, and they had an idea of who the targets were. If you store months, or even years, worth of discreetly-gathered information, how do you know where to start looking? That is, if you know where to look. Even with a "perfect" surveillance system, you can't catch every potential criminal/terrorist.
On August 11 2012 09:33 AgentChaos wrote: lol i bet uk doesnt have this shit (we are too poor)
even if we did, what does it matter?
Is everyone who is worried about "being spied on" so self deluded to think that their government or anyone that doesn't know them directly could give a flying fuck what they do? I certainly am not. My government couldn't care less what I'm doing unless I am doing one of the following:
1) Breaking laws 2) Not paying taxes
Monitor me all you want, if I get caught doing something I shouldn't have been doing in the first place then I have no one but myself to blame.
Its the same old story, every generation since time began has felt oppressed by their government and every previous generation tells them how it was better in the old days, just like when older people say "kids respected their elders in my day" its all bullshit... it was exactly the same, just with worse technology.
Please get it through your heads, no one cares what you do unless you are doing something wrong. If cameras and datamining help deter, prevent or catch people breaking laws then they are doing their job and those who stay within the law have nothing to fear. The old "slippery slope" argument is beyond stupid, the government can't arrest you for staying within the law and if they did, YOU HAVE THE VIDEO EVIDENCE TO PROVE YOURSELF INNOCENT since ofc they have everything on CCTV and backed up on fortified HDDs......
So you know the law inside out, do ya? -_- Everybody is doing something wrong. Maybe not every day, but every now and then. Often without even knowing it. And then what if you become a public figure, and suddenly all sorts of shit about you is leaked -_-
Horrendous.
The "spying" isn't neccesarily bad. It all comes down to what it is used for. To use it to stop terrorism is argueable ok. anything else is just wrong and immoral and, in many countries, illegal. Cause you have privacy rights. I wouldn't sign over these rights any time soon.
Since before the French Revolution? Freedom has always been paid for with blood. There's no such thing as inherent rights. People earn them by force of arms.
On August 11 2012 10:15 ireverie wrote: Everyone who is referring to the 1984 here clearly never finished it or just simply did not understand a single sentence I suppose. Also, all the master plans of world destruction/occupation are not true for one simple reason. If US wanted every possible resource they would've already occupied Saudi Arabia, Canada and every other country that they want.
On August 11 2012 10:19 StorkHwaiting wrote: Since before the French Revolution? Freedom has always been paid for with blood. There's no such thing as inherent rights. People earn them by force of arms.
The only thing true about freedom is that it is almost completely defined by ones own perspective, there is no true census on freedom. Someone who is muslim might think freedom is one thing but require women to wear burkas (which is not free at all in the sense of decision making etc) where we look at that and frown, same applies for us though as we go to the airport.
Security =/= freedom.
"he power or right to act, speak, or think as one wants without hindrance or restraint."
If you think we exist as such, you are not looking very objectively or very hard, though that being said some forms of freedom aren't very good and I'd prefer not to live in the medieval ages.
I guess my opinion is that freedom should never go as far as to inflict on someone elses freedom, such that I should be able to do as I please as long as it isn't taking away your free choices. I dunno, to be frank it's all very confusing but in all honesty I believe we have a long long long way to go before we even see any forms of actual "freedom".
On August 11 2012 10:15 ireverie wrote: Everyone who is referring to the 1984 here clearly never finished it or just simply did not understand a single sentence I suppose. Also, all the master plans of world destruction/occupation are not true for one simple reason. If US wanted every possible resource they would've already occupied Saudi Arabia, Canada and every other country that they want.
gg wp
shh, the neckbeards are talking.
I think the best part is "if they wanted every possible resource they would've already occupied etc etc.". This guy needs a different flavor of Kool-aid.
On August 11 2012 10:15 ireverie wrote: Everyone who is referring to the 1984 here clearly never finished it or just simply did not understand a single sentence I suppose. Also, all the master plans of world destruction/occupation are not true for one simple reason. If US wanted every possible resource they would've already occupied Saudi Arabia, Canada and every other country that they want.
gg wp
shh, the neckbeards are talking.
Yes, because previous U.S + NATO experiences have shown that occupation is cheap.
On August 11 2012 10:15 ireverie wrote: Everyone who is referring to the 1984 here clearly never finished it or just simply did not understand a single sentence I suppose. Also, all the master plans of world destruction/occupation are not true for one simple reason. If US wanted every possible resource they would've already occupied Saudi Arabia, Canada and every other country that they want.
gg wp
shh, the neckbeards are talking.
Why support him? The idea that the US could occupy Saudi Arabia is ridiculous, and Canada even more so. Maybe in a vacuum?
The US has the military for it (well, Saudi Arabia has nuclear weapons so that's tricky) - but the US doesn't want the entire world to turn against it. That would suck.
On August 11 2012 09:33 AgentChaos wrote: lol i bet uk doesnt have this shit (we are too poor)
even if we did, what does it matter?
Is everyone who is worried about "being spied on" so self deluded to think that their government or anyone that doesn't know them directly could give a flying fuck what they do? I certainly am not. My government couldn't care less what I'm doing unless I am doing one of the following:
1) Breaking laws 2) Not paying taxes
Monitor me all you want, if I get caught doing something I shouldn't have been doing in the first place then I have no one but myself to blame.
Its the same old story, every generation since time began has felt oppressed by their government and every previous generation tells them how it was better in the old days, just like when older people say "kids respected their elders in my day" its all bullshit... it was exactly the same, just with worse technology.
Please get it through your heads, no one cares what you do unless you are doing something wrong. If cameras and datamining help deter, prevent or catch people breaking laws then they are doing their job and those who stay within the law have nothing to fear. The old "slippery slope" argument is beyond stupid, the government can't arrest you for staying within the law and if they did, YOU HAVE THE VIDEO EVIDENCE TO PROVE YOURSELF INNOCENT since ofc they have everything on CCTV and backed up on fortified HDDs......
And when the people in charge decide to abuse the power an authority you let them have without protest, what then? People should have a right to privacy.
You're in public... Some dolt on the street can follow you and record your every move if they want. And they don't need this system to do it. I think this is paranoia at its finest.
On August 11 2012 10:15 ireverie wrote: Everyone who is referring to the 1984 here clearly never finished it or just simply did not understand a single sentence I suppose. Also, all the master plans of world destruction/occupation are not true for one simple reason. If US wanted every possible resource they would've already occupied Saudi Arabia, Canada and every other country that they want.
gg wp
I think you vastly overestimate the ability of the us to occupy and control countries; as made apparent in recent wars.
On August 11 2012 09:06 Liquid`Drone wrote: If true, how is this not big news? Global surveillance with facial recognition? You're fine with someone knowing where you are and what you're doing at every moment? There's absolutely no way any possible terrorist or other threat justifies this gross invasion of privacy, and that's that.
I don't have time to really investigate this now but based on OP, this is terrible, and the most important leak from wikileaks so far.
Thank you. People's disregard for their own privacy is just insane -_-.
And btw this is obviously coming from someone who's probably monitored 24/7 in London. We all know the Franklin quote so I won't bother repeating it, but I really can't see how this can be justified.
On August 11 2012 10:18 Heh_ wrote: Not surprising. Even if you record everything, how are you gonna manage all the data? The average Joe shouldn't be too worried because there's simply not enough manpower to keep close tabs on everyone. There could be some interception of keywords in emails and calls like "bomb" for example, but that will create a ton of false positives and any unsavory elements can cover up their tracks too..
To understand the logistics of this, think about the 7/7 London bombings. The UK authorities spent thousands of man-hours to trawl through CCTV footage of the terrorists. This was only possible because the CCTV footage was recent, and they had an idea of who the targets were. If you store months, or even years, worth of discreetly-gathered information, how do you know where to start looking? That is, if you know where to look. Even with a "perfect" surveillance system, you can't catch every potential criminal/terrorist.
A few people asked how they will manage the data so i'm just going to quote you to refer to everyone that asked that question.
This article by a whistleblower answers your question to how they analyze the data. Its basically about the Utah Data center, the main purpose of it is to collectivly analyze and store data from all intelligence agencies. Its rather long but definetly worth a read. The most important quote if your too lazy:
Under construction by contractors with top-secret clearances, the blandly named Utah Data Center is being built for the National Security Agency. A project of immense secrecy, it is the final piece in a complex puzzle assembled over the past decade. Its purpose: to intercept, decipher, analyze, and store vast swaths of the world’s communications as they zap down from satellites and zip through the underground and undersea cables of international, foreign, and domestic networks. The heavily fortified $2 billion center should be up and running in September 2013. Flowing through its servers and routers and stored in near-bottomless databases will be all forms of communication, including the complete contents of private emails, cell phone calls, and Google searches, as well as all sorts of personal data trails—parking receipts, travel itineraries, bookstore purchases, and other digital “pocket litter.” It is, in some measure, the realization of the “total information awareness” program created during the first term of the Bush administration—an effort that was killed by Congress in 2003 after it caused an outcry over its potential for invading Americans’ privacy.
On August 11 2012 10:18 Heh_ wrote: Not surprising. Even if you record everything, how are you gonna manage all the data? The average Joe shouldn't be too worried because there's simply not enough manpower to keep close tabs on everyone. There could be some interception of keywords in emails and calls like "bomb" for example, but that will create a ton of false positives and any unsavory elements can cover up their tracks too..
To understand the logistics of this, think about the 7/7 London bombings. The UK authorities spent thousands of man-hours to trawl through CCTV footage of the terrorists. This was only possible because the CCTV footage was recent, and they had an idea of who the targets were. If you store months, or even years, worth of discreetly-gathered information, how do you know where to start looking? That is, if you know where to look. Even with a "perfect" surveillance system, you can't catch every potential criminal/terrorist.
Without a supercomputer like ARIIA from Eagle Eye, you can't. Who's to say there isn't one?
On August 11 2012 10:15 ireverie wrote: Everyone who is referring to the 1984 here clearly never finished it or just simply did not understand a single sentence I suppose. Also, all the master plans of world destruction/occupation are not true for one simple reason. If US wanted every possible resource they would've already occupied Saudi Arabia, Canada and every other country that they want.
On August 11 2012 10:15 ireverie wrote: Everyone who is referring to the 1984 here clearly never finished it or just simply did not understand a single sentence I suppose. Also, all the master plans of world destruction/occupation are not true for one simple reason. If US wanted every possible resource they would've already occupied Saudi Arabia, Canada and every other country that they want.
gg wp
shh, the neckbeards are talking.
Why support him? The idea that the US could occupy Saudi Arabia is ridiculous, and Canada even more so. Maybe in a vacuum?
The US has the military for it (well, Saudi Arabia has nuclear weapons so that's tricky) - but the US doesn't want the entire world to turn against it. That would suck.
Well to be fair if the US did hypothetically invade Canada what would the rest of the world do lol. Attack via speed boat .
This is really scary though. It's amazing how the US and the world has changed since 9/11.
only children assume we have the ability to parse data on this level and use it effectively. when you grow up and start interacting with adults on a real-world level, you will begin to see that the world is uncontrolled chaos and no one has any idea what they are truly doing. the bigger something is, the less controlled it becomes. it is never the other way around. the secret world you want to unravel does not even exist.
On August 11 2012 10:15 ireverie wrote: Everyone who is referring to the 1984 here clearly never finished it or just simply did not understand a single sentence I suppose. Also, all the master plans of world destruction/occupation are not true for one simple reason. If US wanted every possible resource they would've already occupied Saudi Arabia, Canada and every other country that they want.
gg wp
shh, the neckbeards are talking.
Why support him? The idea that the US could occupy Saudi Arabia is ridiculous, and Canada even more so. Maybe in a vacuum?
The US has the military for it (well, Saudi Arabia has nuclear weapons so that's tricky) - but the US doesn't want the entire world to turn against it. That would suck.
Well to be fair if the US did hypothetically invade Canada what would the rest of the world do lol. Attack via speed boat .
This is really scary though. It's amazing how the US and the world has changed since 9/11.
Attack? No way. But you can be pretty sure NATO and the UN would flip the fuck out and the US would lose quite a lot of international business and stuff.
plus, if you think this is scary... i knew a man who was in control of a data center that stored voicemail for a major carrier. he told me 10 years ago that rather than erasing data, they just added more space... stew on that one...
So far I'm not seeing anything I didn't assume was already going on.
I mean, I'll wait for more info, but strong surveillance of public places isn't something I have an issue with. The whole point is that they're public. . .
On August 11 2012 10:15 ireverie wrote: Everyone who is referring to the 1984 here clearly never finished it or just simply did not understand a single sentence I suppose. Also, all the master plans of world destruction/occupation are not true for one simple reason. If US wanted every possible resource they would've already occupied Saudi Arabia, Canada and every other country that they want.
gg wp
shh, the neckbeards are talking.
Why support him? The idea that the US could occupy Saudi Arabia is ridiculous, and Canada even more so. Maybe in a vacuum?
The US has the military for it (well, Saudi Arabia has nuclear weapons so that's tricky) - but the US doesn't want the entire world to turn against it. That would suck.
Well to be fair if the US did hypothetically invade Canada what would the rest of the world do lol. Attack via speed boat .
This is really scary though. It's amazing how the US and the world has changed since 9/11.
Attack? No way. But you can be pretty sure NATO and the UN would flip the fuck out and the US would lose quite a lot of international business and stuff.
No, if US ever invaded anything but brown people (sorry for the offensive context, but that's it's main export is killing brown people as George Carlin loved to quote) then they'd simply be blown off the face of the earth, same goes for any other country. Imagine if russia invaded Germany etc. Nuclear arms negates major conflicts, that is why the Cold War never actually took place because you can destroy nations. So if you want to be hypothetical, they wouldn't lose "trade" they'd lose cities. Canada wouldn't be the aggressor (and since Canada and US are in bed together its a completely ridiculous assertion) but someone would surely not allow (including the American people unless the cause was just I would presume (though obviously that's not always been the case)) US to just simply expand like the medieval ages.
I don't understand why this would be a surprise to anyone... There are cameras all over public places now.. what did you think they were doing if not filming the public?
People are saying the outrage comes from who is getting this data (government.. private companies like Dow) but if this information is there and stored... couldn't anyone with the proper know how and desire be able to access it anyway?
I think getting up in arms now is a bit alarmist... if there was truely a public outrage it should have come when the cameras installed and not now..
Can this be seen as an invasion of privacy? I suppose so (even though these people are out in public) Can it develop into a problem if misused? Of course Is it a problem right now? I don't consider it one
And as for that wired article.. I admit I did not read the whole thing because it is a huge wall of text... but I did skim through it and read the paragraph you quoted and all it says is that that is the point of the facility... and from what I skimmed it sounded like they haven't even successfully developed the storage system let alone the ability to analyze it... it will be interesting to see if they can actually implement it but there currently isn't a publicly known method being able to process all that information
On August 11 2012 10:15 ireverie wrote: Everyone who is referring to the 1984 here clearly never finished it or just simply did not understand a single sentence I suppose. Also, all the master plans of world destruction/occupation are not true for one simple reason. If US wanted every possible resource they would've already occupied Saudi Arabia, Canada and every other country that they want.
gg wp
shh, the neckbeards are talking.
Why support him? The idea that the US could occupy Saudi Arabia is ridiculous, and Canada even more so. Maybe in a vacuum?
The US has the military for it (well, Saudi Arabia has nuclear weapons so that's tricky) - but the US doesn't want the entire world to turn against it. That would suck.
Well to be fair if the US did hypothetically invade Canada what would the rest of the world do lol. Attack via speed boat .
This is really scary though. It's amazing how the US and the world has changed since 9/11.
Attack? No way. But you can be pretty sure NATO and the UN would flip the fuck out and the US would lose quite a lot of international business and stuff.
No, if US ever invaded anything but brown people (sorry for the offensive context, but that's it's main export is killing brown people as George Carlin loved to quote) then they'd simply be blown off the face of the earth, same goes for any other country. Imagine if russia invaded Germany etc. Nuclear arms negates major conflicts, that is why the Cold War never actually took place because you can destroy nations. So if you want to be hypothetical, they wouldn't lose "trade" they'd lose cities. Canada wouldn't be the aggressor (and since Canada and US are in bed together its a completely ridiculous assertion) but someone would surely not allow (including the American people unless the cause was just I would presume (though obviously that's not always been the case)) US to just simply expand like the medieval ages.
You can't blow the US off the face of the Earth without the US blowing up the rest of the face of the Earth
On August 11 2012 10:15 ireverie wrote: Everyone who is referring to the 1984 here clearly never finished it or just simply did not understand a single sentence I suppose. Also, all the master plans of world destruction/occupation are not true for one simple reason. If US wanted every possible resource they would've already occupied Saudi Arabia, Canada and every other country that they want.
gg wp
shh, the neckbeards are talking.
Why support him? The idea that the US could occupy Saudi Arabia is ridiculous, and Canada even more so. Maybe in a vacuum?
The US has the military for it (well, Saudi Arabia has nuclear weapons so that's tricky) - but the US doesn't want the entire world to turn against it. That would suck.
Well to be fair if the US did hypothetically invade Canada what would the rest of the world do lol. Attack via speed boat .
This is really scary though. It's amazing how the US and the world has changed since 9/11.
Attack? No way. But you can be pretty sure NATO and the UN would flip the fuck out and the US would lose quite a lot of international business and stuff.
No, if US ever invaded anything but brown people (sorry for the offensive context, but that's it's main export is killing brown people as George Carlin loved to quote) then they'd simply be blown off the face of the earth, same goes for any other country. Imagine if russia invaded Germany etc. Nuclear arms negates major conflicts, that is why the Cold War never actually took place because you can destroy nations. So if you want to be hypothetical, they wouldn't lose "trade" they'd lose cities. Canada wouldn't be the aggressor (and since Canada and US are in bed together its a completely ridiculous assertion) but someone would surely not allow (including the American people unless the cause was just I would presume (though obviously that's not always been the case)) US to just simply expand like the medieval ages.
First of all, it should be noted that Russia is probably the only nation on the planet that actually has enough nukes to blow the US "off the face of the earth". Second, if you set aside USA and Russia, the number of nukes in the hands of "brown people" is higher than that in the hands of, err, white people.
On August 11 2012 10:15 ireverie wrote: Everyone who is referring to the 1984 here clearly never finished it or just simply did not understand a single sentence I suppose. Also, all the master plans of world destruction/occupation are not true for one simple reason. If US wanted every possible resource they would've already occupied Saudi Arabia, Canada and every other country that they want.
gg wp
shh, the neckbeards are talking.
Why support him? The idea that the US could occupy Saudi Arabia is ridiculous, and Canada even more so. Maybe in a vacuum?
The US has the military for it (well, Saudi Arabia has nuclear weapons so that's tricky) - but the US doesn't want the entire world to turn against it. That would suck.
Well to be fair if the US did hypothetically invade Canada what would the rest of the world do lol. Attack via speed boat .
This is really scary though. It's amazing how the US and the world has changed since 9/11.
Attack? No way. But you can be pretty sure NATO and the UN would flip the fuck out and the US would lose quite a lot of international business and stuff.
No, if US ever invaded anything but brown people (sorry for the offensive context, but that's it's main export is killing brown people as George Carlin loved to quote) then they'd simply be blown off the face of the earth, same goes for any other country. Imagine if russia invaded Germany etc. Nuclear arms negates major conflicts, that is why the Cold War never actually took place because you can destroy nations. So if you want to be hypothetical, they wouldn't lose "trade" they'd lose cities. Canada wouldn't be the aggressor (and since Canada and US are in bed together its a completely ridiculous assertion) but someone would surely not allow (including the American people unless the cause was just I would presume (though obviously that's not always been the case)) US to just simply expand like the medieval ages.
First of all, it should be noted that Russia is probably the only nation on the planet that actually has enough nukes to blow the US "off the face of the earth". Second, if you set aside USA and Russia, the number of nukes in the hands of "brown people" is higher than that in the hands of, err, white people.
referring to the middle east specifically, but it was more tailored to his line about how after Germany the US just simply stopped attacking white people etc.
On August 11 2012 10:15 ireverie wrote: Everyone who is referring to the 1984 here clearly never finished it or just simply did not understand a single sentence I suppose. Also, all the master plans of world destruction/occupation are not true for one simple reason. If US wanted every possible resource they would've already occupied Saudi Arabia, Canada and every other country that they want.
gg wp
shh, the neckbeards are talking.
Why support him? The idea that the US could occupy Saudi Arabia is ridiculous, and Canada even more so. Maybe in a vacuum?
The US has the military for it (well, Saudi Arabia has nuclear weapons so that's tricky) - but the US doesn't want the entire world to turn against it. That would suck.
Well to be fair if the US did hypothetically invade Canada what would the rest of the world do lol. Attack via speed boat .
This is really scary though. It's amazing how the US and the world has changed since 9/11.
Attack? No way. But you can be pretty sure NATO and the UN would flip the fuck out and the US would lose quite a lot of international business and stuff.
No, if US ever invaded anything but brown people (sorry for the offensive context, but that's it's main export is killing brown people as George Carlin loved to quote) then they'd simply be blown off the face of the earth, same goes for any other country. Imagine if russia invaded Germany etc. Nuclear arms negates major conflicts, that is why the Cold War never actually took place because you can destroy nations. So if you want to be hypothetical, they wouldn't lose "trade" they'd lose cities. Canada wouldn't be the aggressor (and since Canada and US are in bed together its a completely ridiculous assertion) but someone would surely not allow (including the American people unless the cause was just I would presume (though obviously that's not always been the case)) US to just simply expand like the medieval ages.
You can't blow the US off the face of the Earth without the US blowing up the rest of the face of the Earth
Exactly, that's the point and why Nuclear arms have stopped conflicts from occuring, watch Robert Macnamara's Documentary (11 lessons I believe) to see how close you and I were to not even existing.
On August 11 2012 09:33 AgentChaos wrote: lol i bet uk doesnt have this shit (we are too poor)
even if we did, what does it matter?
Is everyone who is worried about "being spied on" so self deluded to think that their government or anyone that doesn't know them directly could give a flying fuck what they do? I certainly am not. My government couldn't care less what I'm doing unless I am doing one of the following:
1) Breaking laws 2) Not paying taxes
Monitor me all you want, if I get caught doing something I shouldn't have been doing in the first place then I have no one but myself to blame.
Its the same old story, every generation since time began has felt oppressed by their government and every previous generation tells them how it was better in the old days, just like when older people say "kids respected their elders in my day" its all bullshit... it was exactly the same, just with worse technology.
Please get it through your heads, no one cares what you do unless you are doing something wrong. If cameras and datamining help deter, prevent or catch people breaking laws then they are doing their job and those who stay within the law have nothing to fear. The old "slippery slope" argument is beyond stupid, the government can't arrest you for staying within the law and if they did, YOU HAVE THE VIDEO EVIDENCE TO PROVE YOURSELF INNOCENT since ofc they have everything on CCTV and backed up on fortified HDDs......
And when the people in charge decide to abuse the power an authority you let them have without protest, what then? People should have a right to privacy.
You're in public... Some dolt on the street can follow you and record your every move if they want. And they don't need this system to do it. I think this is paranoia at its finest.
Again, if you'd read my previous posts, it's not about being recorded, it's about who is doing the recording, and on what kind of scale, for what purpose. The issue is about private corporations recording massive amounts of people for some purpose. Also, for the record, if some dolt followed me around and recorded everything I did, he could easily get arrested for that and I could get a restraining order.
To be fair, I'm honestly not too concerned about it as it is now, but just be aware things could go downhill pretty easily if people just roll over for more and more power to the corporations and the government.
On August 11 2012 10:59 NeMeSiS3 wrote: Exactly, that's the point and why Nuclear arms have stopped conflicts from occuring, watch Robert Macnamara's Documentary (11 lessons I believe) to see how close you and I were to not even existing.
I do understand that nuclear weapons have this tendency to keep a Status Quo and the cold war could have made shit hit the fan big time.
Even though this is a ridiculous hypothetical conversation, I think that even if the US invaded Canada you'd have every country in the world flipping the fuck out with all their guns toward the US but nobody would shoot.
inb4 people realize that most everyone with a digital footprint has a pretty in depth profile built of them and in FBI databases from programs similar to Trapwire for years now, not yet a decade though. But yea, there's a lot of active surveillance, not passive. But really, did you expect anything else? You can't really get new actionable information not relying on an large existing base unless you're using active methods after all...
I have to disagree with the people saying that the US would "get blown off the face of the earth" if they invaded Canada. No country would throw around a Nuke for the sake of another country. Won't happen because then they put themselves in the line of the US nuclear arsenal which why would they want that? The US WOULD nuke anyone asap who was nuking them so no I don't think Russia would risk that.
No one is going to use nukes unless they are crazy or are retaliating against said crazy.
On August 11 2012 10:59 NeMeSiS3 wrote: Exactly, that's the point and why Nuclear arms have stopped conflicts from occuring, watch Robert Macnamara's Documentary (11 lessons I believe) to see how close you and I were to not even existing.
I do understand that nuclear weapons have this tendency to keep a Status Quo and the cold war could have made shit hit the fan big time.
Even though this is a ridiculous hypothetical conversation, I think that even if the US invaded Canada you'd have every country in the world flipping the fuck out with all their guns toward the US but nobody would shoot.
After watching Robert Macnamara's documentary where he described everyone who was involved as rational individuals and that they quote "lucked out" makes me think that if this stupid thing happened (and something similar might cause the powder keg to blow that's been building for the past 30 years) that it will be again, down to luck.
On August 11 2012 11:01 Whitewing wrote: it's about who is doing the recording, and on what kind of scale, for what purpose.
Who would you be okay with recording you? Why does it matter if it is just you and your close friends or family being recorded or the entire world? Isn't the impact on the individual the same? Isn't that what people are concerned about.. how this will impact them? What purpose would that be? Are you sure you know what the purpose is or are you just assuming it will lead to something nefarious?
I knew this was the inevitable end result of all these cameras popping up everywhere but I didn't think they were already compiling this into a central network. It still seems like it would cost a huge amount of resources and effort with very little actual return or pay off. But once the system is in place it's gg no re. I'm gonna ditch the thread before I totally snap after reading someone post "I never done anything wrong so I don't care if they are monitoring me 24/7."
I find it almost laughable that people are worried and Lockheed Martin and Northrup Gruman. Did any of you stop to think that they could be using this information in a effort to stop industrial spying?
I mean its not like there are plenty of nations out there looking to gain an upper hand against US military aircraft superiority. Same goes for the chemical companies. Protection of the public is the domain of the government, if they want to improve way to help keep the public/ public spaces safe by all means go ahead.
God forbid they do something right with the system then whatever will we have to complain about...
I don't understand how this works. So basically these stupid cameras monitor locations and put a name to peoples face? Anyones face? How bout mine? I have no criminal record, etc.
I thought it was common knowledge that this was at the very least -possible-.
The PATRIOT Act and similar bills from nearly a decade ago allowed the U.S. government to collect vast amounts of data that was previously private or restricted to the company owning the equipment. It isn't much of a stretch to think that they'd want to centralize all of the data.
I obviously do oppose access for anyone besides the contractor behind the project and the U.S. government agencies, though. However, I wouldn't mind if they stripped all relevant/important information from the data and then made it available to select scientific organizations. It would be a massive benefit to science to have access to statistical data with such an amazing level of precision.
On August 11 2012 11:12 FeUerFlieGe wrote: It's like how the CIA found Bourne in the Bourne Identity.
The first recent thing that comes to mind is "The Machine" in Person of Interest. Similar concept, though I doubt the real "machine" is anywhere near as complex.
On August 11 2012 11:13 dcemuser wrote: I thought it was common knowledge that this was at the very least -possible-.
The PATRIOT Act and similar bills from nearly a decade ago allowed the U.S. government to collect vast amounts of data that was previously private or restricted to the company owning the equipment. It isn't much of a stretch to think that they'd want to centralize all of the data.
I obviously do oppose access for anyone besides the contractor behind the project and the U.S. government agencies, though. However, I wouldn't mind if they stripped all relevant/important information from the data and then made it available to select scientific organizations. It would be a massive benefit to science to have access to statistical data with such an amazing level of precision.
Yep, can't wait for them to know which hand I wipe my ass with after I take a shit. That's some precision.
On August 11 2012 11:01 Whitewing wrote: it's about who is doing the recording, and on what kind of scale, for what purpose.
Who would you be okay with recording you? Why does it matter if it is just you and your close friends or family being recorded or the entire world? Isn't the impact on the individual the same? Isn't that what people are concerned about.. how this will impact them? What purpose would that be? Are you sure you know what the purpose is or are you just assuming it will lead to something nefarious?
Intent is what matters, and power. A very large corporation or a government can use information like this to abuse their power, some random schmuck probably can't. It's not an issue of impact on an individual, but rather a question of power abuse.
And I'm not assuming it will lead to something nefarious, but I'm concerned that it might, eventually, do so.
I'm leery of giving any more power than we have to to a nation that has actually ordered the assassination of a citizen without a trial on suspicion of terrorism, as well as a nation which has unconstitutional laws like the Patriot Act on the books. Also, historically, many governments in history have abused their power, I see no reason to expect that we are immune to it.
I'm still going to wake up, drive my nice car to work on Monday, work in my nice office, and go home to my hot wife and nice house in the suburbs and play some SC2 at some point in the week.
Despite what you might believe, everyone is not out to get you. You're just not that important.
I just flipped on the news looking for ONE channel to be reporting this and I find myself in complete shock. Not one channel (that I checked) HLN, Fox, CNN.
On a more related note, I read the "Trouble book" which can be found on the first email on top of the list. I more so skimmed through some pages and read others. I found it to be.... Mostly common knowledge. However, some of the emails were incredibly suspicious. So many "rumours" and a lot of things I just thought we shouldn't even be involved in. Some were alarming while others seemed somewhat harmless. Did anyone see the email forwarded to three people that was just a bunch of letters mashed together forming a long paragraph. Is that some kind of error? I didn't understand that one.
On August 11 2012 11:20 mythandier wrote: I can't say I care.
I'm still going to wake up, drive my nice car to work on Monday, work in my nice office, and go home to my hot wife and nice house in the suburbs and play some SC2 at some point in the week.
Despite what you might believe, everyone is not out to get you. You're just not that important.
And there it is, why there isn't a reason to place faith in the people. You're the kind of person who would have been in Germany praising Hitler because no way big government can be bad, get real... It might not be there to be the boogeyman, but it puts its own interest ahead of others. You simply can't feel it because you've obviously been rather privileged, easy to be ignorant when you have not a worry.
On August 11 2012 11:01 Whitewing wrote: it's about who is doing the recording, and on what kind of scale, for what purpose.
Who would you be okay with recording you? Why does it matter if it is just you and your close friends or family being recorded or the entire world? Isn't the impact on the individual the same? Isn't that what people are concerned about.. how this will impact them? What purpose would that be? Are you sure you know what the purpose is or are you just assuming it will lead to something nefarious?
Intent is what matters, and power. A very large corporation or a government can use information like this to abuse their power, some random schmuck probably can't. It's not an issue of impact on an individual, but rather a question of power abuse.
And I'm not assuming it will lead to something nefarious, but I'm concerned that it might, eventually, do so.
Again... How would you know the intent?
Governments have always had access to more information than the public and have always had the ability to abuse their power ... This is simply adding in more information into that pool... I think our job as the public is to police the abuses.. not the information
Also, I think it is silly to say it isn't about impact on the individual... you say it is power abuse but isn't that power over the public and the individuals?
On August 11 2012 11:01 Whitewing wrote: it's about who is doing the recording, and on what kind of scale, for what purpose.
Who would you be okay with recording you? Why does it matter if it is just you and your close friends or family being recorded or the entire world? Isn't the impact on the individual the same? Isn't that what people are concerned about.. how this will impact them? What purpose would that be? Are you sure you know what the purpose is or are you just assuming it will lead to something nefarious?
Intent is what matters, and power. A very large corporation or a government can use information like this to abuse their power, some random schmuck probably can't. It's not an issue of impact on an individual, but rather a question of power abuse.
And I'm not assuming it will lead to something nefarious, but I'm concerned that it might, eventually, do so.
Again... How would you know the intent?
Governments have always had access to more information than the public and have always had the ability to abuse their power ... This is simply adding in more information into that pool... I think our job as the public is to police the abuses.. not the information
Also, I think it is silly to say it isn't about impact on the individual... you say it is power abuse but isn't that power over the public and the individuals?
You wouldn't know the intent, but the fact that you can't know it, and therefore can't hold your government responsible, is a serious problem. Government should strive to avoid doing anything that isn't obviously beneficial, and the intent of private corporations is obvious, to generate a profit.
Power over the public is not the same thing as power over an individual. You do understand the distinction between power over one person and power over every person?
You should want your government to have as little power as possible. Government is necessary for some things, but given how frequently people are corrupted and how often governments have become tyrannical in history, you should want your government to be transparent and to have very little power over you.
Keep in mind this is the same American government that ordered the assassination of a citizen without a trial on suspicion of being a terrorist (what if he was innocent? We'll never know. We'll also never know if his crime wasn't actually worthy of the death penalty). It constantly violates it's own constitution.
I know that many people don't care, but as someone else pointed out in this thread the whole "brick by brick" thing. We can't keep letting these things happen and add up to a point where we are completely controlled by others
I misunderstood the thread a bit, sorry. What I was trying to say is that all the evil master-plans conspiracy theories are truly ridiculous as it is actually (hypothetically) true that US could occupy everything in the world, not by 1 engagement, I mean c'mon people. By "behind the scenes" business they could. But they didn't?
Also, if the "recording" thing is actually true, I'm happy. Less terrorists, less crime. Regardless, I don't think wikileaks is "clean" anymore especially after their connection to the Palestine investors was revealed.
On August 11 2012 11:20 mythandier wrote: I can't say I care.
I'm still going to wake up, drive my nice car to work on Monday, work in my nice office, and go home to my hot wife and nice house in the suburbs and play some SC2 at some point in the week.
Despite what you might believe, everyone is not out to get you. You're just not that important.
And there it is, why there isn't a reason to place faith in the people. You're the kind of person who would have been in Germany praising Hitler because no way big government can be bad, get real... It might not be there to be the boogeyman, but it puts its own interest ahead of others. You simply can't feel it because you've obviously been rather privileged, easy to be ignorant when you have not a worry.
Not being paranoid≠no sense of morality. I can't even begin to understand how someone can compare supporting a mass murderer to simply not caring if there happens to be video footage of you somewhere that nobody but a computer will have access to unless you committed a serious crime.
On August 11 2012 09:03 SergioCQH wrote: Uh, if true, so what? How is this big news?
Never read 1984 I assume?
1984 was a lot more than watching people.
The point is that one of the dangers in 1984 is becoming present in our society, and thus it is possible that more things in 1984 could become true in the future.
On August 11 2012 09:03 SergioCQH wrote: Uh, if true, so what? How is this big news?
Never read 1984 I assume?
1984 was a lot more than watching people.
The point is that one of the dangers in 1984 is becoming present in our society, and thus it is possible that more things in 1984 could become true in the future.
Not really. Orwell warned society that 1984 could develop in the modern world. Soviet Union was a perfect example of 1984 (basically because 1984 is based upon the idea of USSR), do you see a lot of Soviet Union in the US?
On August 11 2012 11:20 mythandier wrote: I can't say I care.
I'm still going to wake up, drive my nice car to work on Monday, work in my nice office, and go home to my hot wife and nice house in the suburbs and play some SC2 at some point in the week.
Despite what you might believe, everyone is not out to get you. You're just not that important.
And there it is, why there isn't a reason to place faith in the people. You're the kind of person who would have been in Germany praising Hitler because no way big government can be bad, get real... It might not be there to be the boogeyman, but it puts its own interest ahead of others. You simply can't feel it because you've obviously been rather privileged, easy to be ignorant when you have not a worry.
Not being paranoid≠no sense of morality. I can't even begin to understand how someone can compare supporting a mass murderer to simply not caring if there happens to be video footage of you somewhere that nobody but a computer will have access to unless you committed a serious crime.
It has to start somewhere, ignorance allowed Hitler to gain power and once he did, well let's just say trying to stop him within Germany gave you a quick ticket to death. Once you allow power to freely be taken away, sure maybe it's not corrupt at first but if history has shown anything, power corrupts. I'd prefer to not let it get that far again.
On August 11 2012 09:03 SergioCQH wrote: Uh, if true, so what? How is this big news?
Never read 1984 I assume?
1984 was a lot more than watching people.
The point is that one of the dangers in 1984 is becoming present in our society, and thus it is possible that more things in 1984 could become true in the future.
Not really. Orwell warned society that 1984 could develop in the modern world. Soviet Union was a perfect example of 1984 (basically because 1984 is based upon the idea of USSR), do you see a lot of Soviet Union in the US?
You're taking the analogy between the book and real life too seriously. What is happening today, with the government watching everyone always, is similar to the situation with Big Brother in 1984. That's all they're saying. Not that the US is turning into the USSR. Try and understand what people are trying to say, instead of taking every word they said literally and pointing out any faults, it makes for a more lively, friendlier discussion.
On August 11 2012 11:50 cydial wrote: This is old news, sorry.
Source?
And ON TOPIC: I don't care if the government knows where I'm shopping, as long as they're not watching me in my home. It's a little eery, but I believe their intention isn't to make my life worse, so it isn't terrible in my eyes. Maybe this is the next step to personalized ad's everywhere you go like in the movie Minority Report? Eye transplant, anyone?
I know a lot of people hate stuff like this, but I mean I for one would like to live in a society where everyone is actually under one government. I'm not talking about an oppressive government with only 1 leader (like having a President) but mainly having a World Gov't which is ran by many with the peoples interest in mind. Even with this article - this plan is ONLY bad if it is abused. If it is only to work against terrorism - how is that bad? It's the "abuse" factor people are afraid of.
The only way we can actually move forwards as a society and up into advanced technologies which include things such as long-distance space-travel, is to have a world government in my view. Right now, you may think we're advanced, but what is the main thing societies are involved with still? Tribal Warfare. Very primitive if you ask me.
Unless you're running a meth lab out of your kitchen or making bombs in someone's basement, there's no reason for them to do ANYTHING EVER with this information..
It's about preventing things before they get out of hand. And to be honest, unless there's something big they're planning like Mind Control, then fuck it! Who cares!
On August 11 2012 11:01 Whitewing wrote: it's about who is doing the recording, and on what kind of scale, for what purpose.
Who would you be okay with recording you? Why does it matter if it is just you and your close friends or family being recorded or the entire world? Isn't the impact on the individual the same? Isn't that what people are concerned about.. how this will impact them? What purpose would that be? Are you sure you know what the purpose is or are you just assuming it will lead to something nefarious?
Intent is what matters, and power. A very large corporation or a government can use information like this to abuse their power, some random schmuck probably can't. It's not an issue of impact on an individual, but rather a question of power abuse.
And I'm not assuming it will lead to something nefarious, but I'm concerned that it might, eventually, do so.
Again... How would you know the intent?
Governments have always had access to more information than the public and have always had the ability to abuse their power ... This is simply adding in more information into that pool... I think our job as the public is to police the abuses.. not the information
Also, I think it is silly to say it isn't about impact on the individual... you say it is power abuse but isn't that power over the public and the individuals?
You wouldn't know the intent, but the fact that you can't know it, and therefore can't hold your government responsible, is a serious problem. Government should strive to avoid doing anything that isn't obviously beneficial, and the intent of private corporations is obvious, to generate a profit.
Power over the public is not the same thing as power over an individual. You do understand the distinction between power over one person and power over every person?
I guess I'm missing when our government has ever been completely transparent and able to be held accountable for everything they do... now I am not saying that this would be a bad thing... it would be quite nice but it is nothing but a pipe dream in my opinion... so, I don't see how anything has changed ... the amount of information available to the government has simply expanded which has to be expected with technology as it is today
Also, doing this under the banner of national security would be beneficial, assuming that is all it is used for...
I'm guessing that comment is with respect to the fact that private companies have also had access (which from what I've read isn't certain.. they simply state the stratfor has provided intelligence to these companies.. it doesn't say tripwire has provided surveillance data to them... if I am wrong please point me to where it says it has been), but as long as it is shared under government contracting and confidential.. isn't that also beneficial under national security?
And yes .. I know the difference between public and individual ... my comments on that are simply because I don't think there would be any outrage at all if the individual did not feel threatened and it is not just on principle like people are claiming but that isn't all that relevant ... just my view on people
People seem to be making lots of assumptions for the worse and I consider all the worry fairly alarmist
On August 11 2012 09:03 SergioCQH wrote: Uh, if true, so what? How is this big news?
Never read 1984 I assume?
1984 was a lot more than watching people.
The point is that one of the dangers in 1984 is becoming present in our society, and thus it is possible that more things in 1984 could become true in the future.
But some dangers aren't true, which means the others could become not true in the future. I call that one the reverse slippery slope.
It seems like a lot of people take that with a good laugh. Saying things like
- "you're paranoïd, just let them do their thing": just take a history class and you should have another point of view. I'm not really sure but hey.
- "i don't do anything wrong": yet. Wait till you're in a minority and whatever it is you like to do falls under some law.
- "i'm not interesting": well in the country I live in, one should be ashamed of not opposing any resistance. Sure China is ... China. But that doesn't mean there's no fight to pick in Europe or the US. A living democracy is made of people fighting for something and thus annoying the power a bit.
If you think they are only trying to protect you against terrorists, well i may be totally wrong then.
Unless you're running a meth lab out of your kitchen or making bombs in someone's basement, there's no reason for them to do ANYTHING EVER with this information..
It's about preventing things before they get out of hand. And to be honest, unless there's something big they're planning like Mind Control, then fuck it! Who cares!
I'd be pissed if I got flashed at one of those red light cameras, then a cop found me at Home Depot a week later because they saw me walk inside on a camera.
It just gives the government a lot of power, it's everyone's decision to choose if it's too much power or not. I agree with you though: don't break the rules, and you have to reason to fear the ref.
Unless you're running a meth lab out of your kitchen or making bombs in someone's basement, there's no reason for them to do ANYTHING EVER with this information..
It's about preventing things before they get out of hand. And to be honest, unless there's something big they're planning like Mind Control, then fuck it! Who cares!
I'd be pissed if I got flashed at one of those red light cameras, then a cop found me at Home Depot a week later because they saw me walk inside on a camera.
It just gives the government a lot of power, it's everyone's decision to choose if it's too much power or not. I agree with you though: don't break the rules, and you have to reason to fear the ref.
lol wtf are you talking about, if you get flashed at a redlight they just mail you the ticket if you have license plates.
Unless you're running a meth lab out of your kitchen or making bombs in someone's basement, there's no reason for them to do ANYTHING EVER with this information..
It's about preventing things before they get out of hand. And to be honest, unless there's something big they're planning like Mind Control, then fuck it! Who cares!
I'd be pissed if I got flashed at one of those red light cameras, then a cop found me at Home Depot a week later because they saw me walk inside on a camera.
It just gives the government a lot of power, it's everyone's decision to choose if it's too much power or not. I agree with you though: don't break the rules, and you have to reason to fear the ref.
lol wtf are you talking about, if you get flashed at a redlight they just mail you the ticket if you have license plates.
he was just explaining an example of how once a rule/law gets broken, they can "abuse" this system to easily track down such people...
although yes, a lame example, an example nonetheless.
Unless you're running a meth lab out of your kitchen or making bombs in someone's basement, there's no reason for them to do ANYTHING EVER with this information..
It's about preventing things before they get out of hand. And to be honest, unless there's something big they're planning like Mind Control, then fuck it! Who cares!
I'd be pissed if I got flashed at one of those red light cameras, then a cop found me at Home Depot a week later because they saw me walk inside on a camera.
It just gives the government a lot of power, it's everyone's decision to choose if it's too much power or not. I agree with you though: don't break the rules, and you have to reason to fear the ref.
The red light camera takes a picture of your license plates, which can be used to identify you. They then send your fine to you in the mail. They don't need to actuate a mutli-thousand dollar man hunt and dedicate their computer's precious resources towards tracking you down and dispatching police to come after you because you ran a red light.
On August 11 2012 09:03 SergioCQH wrote: Uh, if true, so what? How is this big news?
Never read 1984 I assume?
Does reading 1984 make one cool, or just paranoid?
Seems most threads on TL nowadays can't go without an obligatory nod to George Orwell's classic, lol.
I'm more inclined to believe the whole "SOPA/PIPA" scare than this, really. Yeah, I could see it happening/have happened, but I'm not one to jump and accept conspiracies.... Gonna sit this out and wait for more info.
Unless you're running a meth lab out of your kitchen or making bombs in someone's basement, there's no reason for them to do ANYTHING EVER with this information..
It's about preventing things before they get out of hand. And to be honest, unless there's something big they're planning like Mind Control, then fuck it! Who cares!
I'd be pissed if I got flashed at one of those red light cameras, then a cop found me at Home Depot a week later because they saw me walk inside on a camera.
It just gives the government a lot of power, it's everyone's decision to choose if it's too much power or not. I agree with you though: don't break the rules, and you have to reason to fear the ref.
The red light camera takes a picture of your license plates, which can be used to identify you. They then send your fine to you in the mail. They don't need to actuate a mutli-thousand dollar man hunt and dedicate their computer's precious resources towards tracking you down and dispatching police to come after you because you ran a red light.
Unless you've also torrented an mp3, then you're pretty much screwed
Unless you're running a meth lab out of your kitchen or making bombs in someone's basement, there's no reason for them to do ANYTHING EVER with this information..
It's about preventing things before they get out of hand. And to be honest, unless there's something big they're planning like Mind Control, then fuck it! Who cares!
I'd be pissed if I got flashed at one of those red light cameras, then a cop found me at Home Depot a week later because they saw me walk inside on a camera.
It just gives the government a lot of power, it's everyone's decision to choose if it's too much power or not. I agree with you though: don't break the rules, and you have to reason to fear the ref.
The red light camera takes a picture of your license plates, which can be used to identify you. They then send your fine to you in the mail. They don't need to actuate a mutli-thousand dollar man hunt and dedicate their computer's precious resources towards tracking you down and dispatching police to come after you because you ran a red light.
Unless you've also torrented an mp3, then you're pretty much screwed
Implying they know you torrented ANYTHING. I know you can put trackers on IP's, Torrents, etc, but to do that for each person is stupid. This system is MADE for BIG stuff.. like trying to catch people on the Most Wanted list. Or profiling minorities and background checking on the fly to see if they've done anything illegal, and if so, they know where to find him!
It's not (hopefully) about pinning everyone up against a wall with a flashlight to the eye yelling "DID YOU TAKE THE COOKIE FROM THE COOKIE JAR?!? HUH!? DID YA!??!"....
And if so... well then 2045 (the immortality project date) better get here a little sooner so I can make my way to another planet. Cuz America is kind of large globally.
Unless you're running a meth lab out of your kitchen or making bombs in someone's basement, there's no reason for them to do ANYTHING EVER with this information..
It's about preventing things before they get out of hand. And to be honest, unless there's something big they're planning like Mind Control, then fuck it! Who cares!
I'd be pissed if I got flashed at one of those red light cameras, then a cop found me at Home Depot a week later because they saw me walk inside on a camera.
It just gives the government a lot of power, it's everyone's decision to choose if it's too much power or not. I agree with you though: don't break the rules, and you have to reason to fear the ref.
The red light camera takes a picture of your license plates, which can be used to identify you. They then send your fine to you in the mail. They don't need to actuate a mutli-thousand dollar man hunt and dedicate their computer's precious resources towards tracking you down and dispatching police to come after you because you ran a red light.
I know how the process works. I also know you don't have to pay the fine if they don't serve it to you. Mailing doesn't count as serving. If they mail it to you, and you throw it away, they may send a public servant to your house to serve you the fine.
But why would they go through all that trouble if they knew I'd go shopping in the next week and they would see me as soon as I stepped inside a store?
Also, the photo system doesn't work well by identifying just your license plate. If I cover my face and run a red right now, I can say someone else was driving my car, and I'm off the hook. However, f they can identify my face wherever I go, they can catch my car with the camera, then see if I show up at any store near by (or in the direction I was going) and connect the dots to say I was the one driving.
I'm waiting for my ticket in the mail right now, so I've been doing my research. Please tell me if I made a mistake. If I didn't, I believe my point stands.
Unless you're running a meth lab out of your kitchen or making bombs in someone's basement, there's no reason for them to do ANYTHING EVER with this information..
It's about preventing things before they get out of hand. And to be honest, unless there's something big they're planning like Mind Control, then fuck it! Who cares!
I'd be pissed if I got flashed at one of those red light cameras, then a cop found me at Home Depot a week later because they saw me walk inside on a camera.
It just gives the government a lot of power, it's everyone's decision to choose if it's too much power or not. I agree with you though: don't break the rules, and you have to reason to fear the ref.
The red light camera takes a picture of your license plates, which can be used to identify you. They then send your fine to you in the mail. They don't need to actuate a mutli-thousand dollar man hunt and dedicate their computer's precious resources towards tracking you down and dispatching police to come after you because you ran a red light.
Unless you've also torrented an mp3, then you're pretty much screwed
Implying they know you torrented ANYTHING. I know you can put trackers on IP's, Torrents, etc, but to do that for each person is stupid. This system is MADE for BIG stuff.. like trying to catch people on the Most Wanted list. Or profiling minorities and background checking on the fly to see if they've done anything illegal, and if so, they know where to find him!
It's not (hopefully) about pinning everyone up against a wall with a flashlight to the eye yelling "DID YOU TAKE THE COOKIE FROM THE COOKIE JAR?!? HUH!? DID YA!??!"....
And if so... well then 2045 (the immortality project date) better get here a little sooner so I can make my way to another planet. Cuz America is kind of large globally.
I like how you went from: "This system is..." to "It's not (hopefully) ..." Really shows that your adding your own opinion to your argument without any backup. This system could be used for anything. You don't know, I don't know. So, right now, we have to assume it will be used for anything, since it can be.
Also, my friends get letters all the time telling them to stop torrenting because they're popping up on someone's radar. I would think endangering people's lives by recklessly running a red light is worse than a torrent.
I would love to see more information on this that doesn't come from wikileaks.
Though I'm in the minority of people who would actually support a rigorously ethical implementation of mass surveillance (surveillance is a tool which can be, and has been, used for good rather than evil) ... Even I have major qualms about what this leak has revealed.
I do not like governments acting in secret, with no vote or public discourse, to enable mass surveillance of their population. That this is all being enacted in secrecy, and with counterterrorism as a justification, is a very bad sign.
The correct way to increase surveillance would be to integrate the new systems into existing law enforcement and judicial frameworks, with ethical oversight, a code of privacy and rights laws in place to prevent abuse, and public/media discourse and awareness to keep those abuses that do occur to an acceptable minimum. The recent thread about a proposed surveillance network in the European Union is a decent example of this.
The US version is basically "let's set this shit up in secret, have a bunch of private companies and intel agencies run it and do whatever they like without any oversight or checks in place... Later we can shift the blame to them."
Does not bode very well for the general populace over here.
On August 11 2012 09:06 Liquid`Drone wrote: If true, how is this not big news? Global surveillance with facial recognition? You're fine with someone knowing where you are and what you're doing at every moment? There's absolutely no way any possible terrorist or other threat justifies this gross invasion of privacy, and that's that.
I don't have time to really investigate this now but based on OP, this is terrible, and the most important leak from wikileaks so far.
Um, anyone who didn't assume this was already happening was just being willfully ignorant. We have no rights, and haven't had any in 150 years. After the civil war people became sheep and completely ignored the fact we have the right to abolish the government. They sign petitions, protest, and make shitty reddit posts instead of doing anything that actually matters.
Governments will always oppress its subjects and disregard their rights as long as they rule sheep, and who can blame them. Do you blame the Sheppard for herding his sheep? Do you blame the dogs for keeping the sheep scared and in check? Sheep are sheep.
On August 11 2012 09:06 Liquid`Drone wrote: If true, how is this not big news? Global surveillance with facial recognition? You're fine with someone knowing where you are and what you're doing at every moment? There's absolutely no way any possible terrorist or other threat justifies this gross invasion of privacy, and that's that.
I don't have time to really investigate this now but based on OP, this is terrible, and the most important leak from wikileaks so far.
Um, anyone who didn't assume this was already happening was just being willfully ignorant. We have no rights, and haven't had any in 150 years. After the civil war people became sheep and completely ignored the fact we have the right to abolish the government. They sign petitions, protest, and make shitty reddit posts instead of doing anything that actually matters.
Governments will always oppress its subjects and disregard their rights as long as they rule sheep, and who can blame them. Do you blame the Sheppard for herding his sheep? Do you blame the dogs for keeping the sheep scared and in check? Sheep are sheep.
What did I just... I just can't.... oh god.. I feel sorry for you honestly.
I like how you went from: "This system is..." to "It's not (hopefully) ..." Really shows that your adding your own opinion to your argument without any backup. This system could be used for anything. You don't know, I don't know. So, right now, we have to assume it will be used for anything, since it can be.
Also, my friends get letters all the time telling them to stop torrenting because they're popping up on someone's radar. I would think endangering people's lives by recklessly running a red light is worse than a torrent.
Lol... ya... well I'm on the positive side of things, which is why I'm promoting this as a "nothing can go wrong" idea.
However... When something can go wrong, it will. And as of right now, as far as we know, nothing has... And i'm not entirely convinced something can either....
On August 11 2012 09:06 Liquid`Drone wrote: If true, how is this not big news? Global surveillance with facial recognition? You're fine with someone knowing where you are and what you're doing at every moment? There's absolutely no way any possible terrorist or other threat justifies this gross invasion of privacy, and that's that.
I don't have time to really investigate this now but based on OP, this is terrible, and the most important leak from wikileaks so far.
Um, anyone who didn't assume this was already happening was just being willfully ignorant. We have no rights, and haven't had any in 150 years. After the civil war people became sheep and completely ignored the fact we have the right to abolish the government. They sign petitions, protest, and make shitty reddit posts instead of doing anything that actually matters.
Governments will always oppress its subjects and disregard their rights as long as they rule sheep, and who can blame them. Do you blame the Sheppard for herding his sheep? Do you blame the dogs for keeping the sheep scared and in check? Sheep are sheep.
Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed.
You forgot that part that comes after "you can abolish the government, dude".
On August 11 2012 09:03 SergioCQH wrote: Uh, if true, so what? How is this big news?
Never read 1984 I assume?
1984 was a lot more than watching people.
The point is that one of the dangers in 1984 is becoming present in our society, and thus it is possible that more things in 1984 could become true in the future.
Not really. Orwell warned society that 1984 could develop in the modern world. Soviet Union was a perfect example of 1984 (basically because 1984 is based upon the idea of USSR), do you see a lot of Soviet Union in the US?
What Vindicare605 is saying is that the reason why this is big news is because this brings us closer to what is seen in 1984. However, blitzkrieg0 seems to have midunderstood his point. Vindicare605 is not saying that 1984 is already true, which blitzkrieg0 seems to be commenting on since he contradicts that false notion by saying that 1984 includes more than just watching people. I don't see how USSR relates to this.
I imagine the speech writers and pr spin men in the white house are going to be pulling an all nighter on this one. I honestly can't wait to see the excuses, obfuscations and pointing everyone back to the ever convenient terrorist threat.
I have no idea how they're going to play this one. You just got caught with a massive already operational surveillance network set up entirely in secret, feeding info to private companies, which is purportedly linked in to tons of cameras nationwide... In a nation with one of the free-est presses and most paranoid citizens anywhere... What do you do?
Wow, massive corporations know where I live, monitor me and all of my communications, and yet the damned VA still sends all of my mail to my previous military address instead of my home of record; despite having contacted them with both my current military status and address.
This cycle between anarchy and control will probably always exist. French Revolution, Communist Revolution. Socalist, Libertarian. Guantanamo, KKK. If you were one of the U.S.A.'s leaders when 9/11 happened, you'd probably feel pretty strongly about making sure it never happened again. As such, we seem to be heading in the direction of more control.
It's similar to the question of the perfect justice system (or trying to attain it). Is it okay to have one innocent man go to jail if that means doing what is necessary to put 99 guilty men there? I've often felt that's never justified, but how do the victims' families feel when killers go free? And what of the future victims and their families? That's not as easy to empathize with as the more simple act of imagining losing your own freedom. After all, we've been to school, and we've probably been grounded at some point, while most of us haven't lost a friend to violence, I hope.
As to the direction we're headed, I'd like to think people are more educated about history than in the past, and at least we can avoid any extremes like the guillotine or Stalin. Similarly, you'd think those in power also aware of the possibilities and will, at best, come to their senses. More likely, they'll build upon the guile of the ages.
Wouldn't something like this be unconstitutional in pretty much every democracy out there? Just sayan. To all the "I don't care when they have my data LOL" guys.
On August 11 2012 11:20 mythandier wrote: I can't say I care.
I'm still going to wake up, drive my nice car to work on Monday, work in my nice office, and go home to my hot wife and nice house in the suburbs and play some SC2 at some point in the week.
Despite what you might believe, everyone is not out to get you. You're just not that important.
And there it is, why there isn't a reason to place faith in the people. You're the kind of person who would have been in Germany praising Hitler because no way big government can be bad, get real... It might not be there to be the boogeyman, but it puts its own interest ahead of others. You simply can't feel it because you've obviously been rather privileged, easy to be ignorant when you have not a worry.
Not being paranoid≠no sense of morality. I can't even begin to understand how someone can compare supporting a mass murderer to simply not caring if there happens to be video footage of you somewhere that nobody but a computer will have access to unless you committed a serious crime.
It has to start somewhere, ignorance allowed Hitler to gain power and once he did, well let's just say trying to stop him within Germany gave you a quick ticket to death. Once you allow power to freely be taken away, sure maybe it's not corrupt at first but if history has shown anything, power corrupts. I'd prefer to not let it get that far again.
I hate how everyone who disagrees with me seems to find a way to turn me into a genocide supporter. All I'm saying is knowing where I get my coffee isn't going to give anyone any power over me. But if it has the slightest chance of deterring or stopping a homicidal maniac it's good by me. I think it all comes around to the question "What do you have to hide?" If you don't then you simply shouldn't care.
Ehh... Honestly, what does this change? Nothing. Everyone will still carry on with their same business. If you didn't think they were somehow monitoring before, than you are just naive.
I might actually consider upgrading wikileaks from "please die" to "necessary evil" if this turns out to be true. As for my government, well, it was already rated at "go fuck yourself", so I don't think I can downgrade it without turning into an anarchist.
On August 11 2012 11:20 mythandier wrote: I can't say I care.
I'm still going to wake up, drive my nice car to work on Monday, work in my nice office, and go home to my hot wife and nice house in the suburbs and play some SC2 at some point in the week.
Despite what you might believe, everyone is not out to get you. You're just not that important.
And there it is, why there isn't a reason to place faith in the people. You're the kind of person who would have been in Germany praising Hitler because no way big government can be bad, get real... It might not be there to be the boogeyman, but it puts its own interest ahead of others. You simply can't feel it because you've obviously been rather privileged, easy to be ignorant when you have not a worry.
Not being paranoid≠no sense of morality. I can't even begin to understand how someone can compare supporting a mass murderer to simply not caring if there happens to be video footage of you somewhere that nobody but a computer will have access to unless you committed a serious crime.
It has to start somewhere, ignorance allowed Hitler to gain power and once he did, well let's just say trying to stop him within Germany gave you a quick ticket to death. Once you allow power to freely be taken away, sure maybe it's not corrupt at first but if history has shown anything, power corrupts. I'd prefer to not let it get that far again.
I hate how everyone who disagrees with me seems to find a way to turn me into a genocide supporter. All I'm saying is knowing where I get my coffee isn't going to give anyone any power over me. But if it has the slightest chance of deterring or stopping a homicidal maniac it's good by me. I think it all comes around to the question "What do you have to hide?" If you don't then you simply shouldn't care.
It isn't that you are a "genocide supporter" and don't play the innocent card while presenting yourself in a facetious tone making ridiculous claims that people who think a governments ability to monitor everyones movement at all times is equatable to "out to get you". I am saying that ignorance that you allow, is power someone will harness and it has happened again and again. Mainly because of people like yourself who deems that security > freedom and we should all continue as our day progresses because who cares, nothing to hide.
On August 11 2012 10:53 Warlock40 wrote: First of all, it should be noted that Russia is probably the only nation on the planet that actually has enough nukes to blow the US "off the face of the earth". Second, if you set aside USA and Russia, the number of nukes in the hands of "brown people" is higher than that in the hands of, err, white people.
France, Great Britain and Israel probably have more nukes than India, Pakistan and China, not only that but the whole "if you set aside" is ridicolous because US and Russia have the majority of the nukes, how can they be "set aside".
When I read about this huge plans to control information and mass surveillance in the name of fighting terrorism I can only think that there is an underlying purpose, maybe the US government knows that with the economic crisis and all that comes with it a better surveillance system and storing of data could eventually prevent a rebellion of the people, just look at the wall street ocupy movement, protests like that could get bigger in the future, that to me is what this is all about. A future bigger economic crisis, let's say in 50 years could cause protests proportionally bigger that the ones of the late sixties, the difference is that those were against war these ones will be against the government and the system, it is only logical for the government to be prepared.
Pretty scary that this thing is completely hidden from the citizens and we have no way to voice our opinions against it or vote against it or anything. They obviously knew the public would be outraged if they knew so that's probably why it's so secretive.
I guess it's cause for a little concern, but to the majority of people it shouldn't matter much. Even with 1984 levels of surveillance, it's just going to be: "well, he got back from work. now he's playing video games. now he's masturbating. now he's watching tv. now he's masturbating again."
On August 11 2012 13:09 starfries wrote: I guess it's cause for a little concern, but to the majority of people it shouldn't matter much. Even with 1984 levels of surveillance, it's just going to be: "well, he got back from work. now he's playing video games. now he's masturbating. now he's watching tv. now he's masturbating again."
And when the walls between church and state erode along with our traditional privacy barriers you won't even be able to masturbate in peace! I think that's the point when people will get up and realize they might need to do something about their situation.
From quoted article in OP: "...the corporation's ties are assumed to go deeper than even documented." "and they are potentially monitoring every single person via facial recognition."
I laughed out loud at both of these. I would assume the ties go as deep as the reptilians in every major office, and the cameras are also equipped with automated killbots that can clean up the scene of any murder in less than 30 seconds. Why have facts when you can just assume the most paranoid shit you can think of?
This is a massive leak this time, whoa. If this really is what it seems to be..........wow. That's a ridiculous system. I can't believe he actually got access to this kind of information. This is no laughing matter.
On August 11 2012 13:17 Blennd wrote: From quoted article in OP: "...the corporation's ties are assumed to go deeper than even documented." "and they are potentially monitoring every single person via facial recognition."
I laughed out loud at both of these. I would assume the ties go as deep as the reptilians in every major office, and the cameras are also equipped with automated killbots that can clean up the scene of any murder in less than 30 seconds. Why have facts when you can just assume the most paranoid shit you can think of?
The first one is not that far fetched. The second is quite goofy.
"Look that's Jenny, she's buying a bag of chips" *military guys golfclap*
On August 11 2012 10:53 Warlock40 wrote: First of all, it should be noted that Russia is probably the only nation on the planet that actually has enough nukes to blow the US "off the face of the earth". Second, if you set aside USA and Russia, the number of nukes in the hands of "brown people" is higher than that in the hands of, err, white people.
France, Great Britain and Israel probably have more nukes than India, Pakistan and China, not only that but the whole "if you set aside" is ridicolous because US and Russia have the majority of the nukes, how can they be "set aside".
When I read about this huge plans to control information and mass surveillance in the name of fighting terrorism I can only think that there is an underlying purpose, maybe the US government knows that with the economic crisis and all that comes with it a better surveillance system and storing of data could eventually prevent a rebellion of the people, just look at the wall street ocupy movement, protests like that could get bigger in the future, that to me is what this is all about. A future bigger economic crisis, let's say in 50 years could cause protests proportionally bigger that the ones of the late sixties, the difference is that those were against war these ones will be against the government and the system, it is only logical for the government to be prepared.
Other than that, I think this is absolutely horrendous. I agree with Drone, no amount of 'safety' would make me want to give up so much privacy. Sometimes, I am truly thankful that I grew up in third world countries. Nowadays, Im thankful much more often.
On August 11 2012 13:01 Greenei wrote: Wouldn't something like this be unconstitutional in pretty much every democracy out there? Just sayan. To all the "I don't care when they have my data LOL" guys.
I don't think so, not in the us at least, because no ones privacy rights are technically violated. You have no "reasonable expectation of privacy" in any of the places effected by the cameras/system. They already had the ability to create a dossier on any one individual and collect info/record him while in public... No warrant needed for that. So technically this is the same thing just on a much larger scale.
The fact that they are fucking selling the info to corporations should result in an uproar, though. Taxpayer dollars should be going to defense and security, not letting unscrupulous CEOs voyeuristically analyze us so as to better bombard and invade our lives with targetted ads... There's no telling what these private companies might do to us with this data.
Far more worrisome, and vastly more unconstitutional than any of this is the "suspicion" arrests and detainments being used by the government at present... As the article in the op states. But it is the combination of factors that might really fuck up our liberties. We need to clean house governmentally, this is just getting out of hand.
On August 11 2012 09:51 ilikeredheads wrote: Freedom isn't free. The US government is there to serve large private corporations, not the general public.
Quick, hide before you get labelled a conspiracist.
On August 11 2012 13:09 starfries wrote: I guess it's cause for a little concern, but to the majority of people it shouldn't matter much. Even with 1984 levels of surveillance, it's just going to be: "well, he got back from work. now he's playing video games. now he's masturbating. now he's watching tv. now he's masturbating again."
And when the walls between church and state erode along with our traditional privacy barriers you won't even be able to masturbate in peace! I think that's the point when people will get up and realize they might need to do something about their situation.
There's a wall between church and state? Since when?
People seem to act like this only happens in shows like 24
Obviously the governments that are sworn to protect their people from any threat "both foreign and domestic" are going to be eager to ensure that they aren't caught unawares by a plot that could be averted by thorough surveillance. I know many would say that security isn't worth their freedom (yadda yadda ben franklin), but it's easy to say that on this side of an attack. The funny thing is, it's outrage now, but if there was an attack, those same people would blame the government for not taking necessary steps to protect them.
The US is so totalitarian and yet the people do not care. This is something people should care about, but nobody will, because the majority will not be aware of it, even if it is posted all over the internet. If you speak up, they are going to listen, because they can't ignore you. Unfortunately, people do nothing.
Definition of totalitarianism: "Totalitarianism (or totalitarian rule) is a political system where the state recognizes no limits to its authority and strives to regulate every aspect of public and private life wherever feasible.[1] Totalitarian regimes stay in political power through an all-encompassing propaganda campaign, which is disseminated through the state-controlled mass media (Fox), a single party that is often marked by political repression, personality cultism (people in America idealize leaders), control over the economy (yep), regulation and restriction of speech, mass surveillance (LOL), and widespread use of terror." (Wikipedia)
On August 11 2012 13:33 Carson wrote: People seem to act like this only happens in shows like 24
Obviously the governments that are sworn to protect their people from any threat "both foreign and domestic" are going to be eager to ensure that they aren't caught unawares by a plot that could be averted by thorough surveillance. I know many would say that security isn't worth their freedom (yadda yadda ben franklin), but it's easy to say that on this side of an attack. The funny thing is, it's outrage now, but if there was an attack, those same people would blame the government for not taking necessary steps to protect them.
The problem is they set it up in secret using a bunch of corporations and also giving data to other random corporations, and there was no vote, no discourse... And the company who owns it is filled with ex government spooks not exactly known for refraining from drugging kidnapping blackmailing assassinating, and lately imprisoning and torturing. Being a us citizen has been no defense against the agencies in the past.
On August 11 2012 13:33 Carson wrote: People seem to act like this only happens in shows like 24
Obviously the governments that are sworn to protect their people from any threat "both foreign and domestic" are going to be eager to ensure that they aren't caught unawares by a plot that could be averted by thorough surveillance. I know many would say that security isn't worth their freedom (yadda yadda ben franklin), but it's easy to say that on this side of an attack. The funny thing is, it's outrage now, but if there was an attack, those same people would blame the government for not taking necessary steps to protect them.
The problem is they set it up in secret using a bunch of corporations and also giving data to other random corporations, and there was no vote, no discourse... And the company who owns it is filled with ex government spooks not exactly known for refraining from drugging kidnapping blackmailing assassinating, and lately imprisoning and torturing. Being a us citizen has been no defense against the agencies in the past.
I can dig it. However, my question is: is it better for these quasi-government relatively unaccountable agencies to be quietly used when it is deemed necessary, or should the nasty business of using assassination and torture be public knowledge?
On August 11 2012 13:39 mikell wrote: The US is so totalitarian and yet the people do not care. This is something people should care about, but nobody will, because the majority will not be aware of it, even if it is posted all over the internet. If you speak up, they are going to listen, because they can't ignore you. Unfortunately, people do nothing.
Definition of totalitarianism: "Totalitarianism (or totalitarian rule) is a political system where the state recognizes no limits to its authority and strives to regulate every aspect of public and private life wherever feasible.[1] Totalitarian regimes stay in political power through an all-encompassing propaganda campaign, which is disseminated through the state-controlled mass media (Fox), a single party that is often marked by political repression, personality cultism (people in America idealize leaders), control over the economy (yep), regulation and restriction of speech, mass surveillance (LOL), and widespread use of terror." (Wikipedia)
And if you speak out against the majority, you will be ostracized *by not only the government but the people too*, this thread has plenty of examples of this perhaps its because if they side with the majority they themselves cant be singled out, until its too late. And the worst part is the people literally cheer this behavior on.
with stuff like wikileaks and freedom of information legislation and various google products and marketing data, it's getting easier and easier to get your hands on this kind of information. I might not trust the government... but I trust my fellow citizens even less. so I wouldn't really worry about the FBI watching what you do. I'd worry more about your crazy ex-girlfriend watching what you do.
On August 11 2012 13:33 Carson wrote: People seem to act like this only happens in shows like 24
Obviously the governments that are sworn to protect their people from any threat "both foreign and domestic" are going to be eager to ensure that they aren't caught unawares by a plot that could be averted by thorough surveillance. I know many would say that security isn't worth their freedom (yadda yadda ben franklin), but it's easy to say that on this side of an attack. The funny thing is, it's outrage now, but if there was an attack, those same people would blame the government for not taking necessary steps to protect them.
The problem is they set it up in secret using a bunch of corporations and also giving data to other random corporations, and there was no vote, no discourse... And the company who owns it is filled with ex government spooks not exactly known for refraining from drugging kidnapping blackmailing assassinating, and lately imprisoning and torturing. Being a us citizen has been no defense against the agencies in the past.
I can dig it. However, my question is: is it better for these quasi-government relatively unaccountable agencies to be quietly used when it is deemed necessary, or should the nasty business of using assassination and torture be public knowledge?
Ummm... I'd have to think on that. I recognize sometimes nasty things need to be done quietly. I think public surveillance is not one of those things. I outlined what I think would be a sensible surveillance policy in an earlier post, basically, see the EUs proposed version of this.
There isnt much to actually say here. Most Americans are against it for obvious reasons. Im thankful we have wikileaks and good sleuthing. And that shit like this doesnt go unnoticed. Or not forever anyway.
On August 11 2012 13:39 mikell wrote: The US is so totalitarian and yet the people do not care. This is something people should care about, but nobody will, because the majority will not be aware of it, even if it is posted all over the internet. If you speak up, they are going to listen, because they can't ignore you. Unfortunately, people do nothing.
Definition of totalitarianism: "Totalitarianism (or totalitarian rule) is a political system where the state recognizes no limits to its authority and strives to regulate every aspect of public and private life wherever feasible.[1] Totalitarian regimes stay in political power through an all-encompassing propaganda campaign, which is disseminated through the state-controlled mass media (Fox), a single party that is often marked by political repression, personality cultism (people in America idealize leaders), control over the economy (yep), regulation and restriction of speech, mass surveillance (LOL), and widespread use of terror." (Wikipedia)
The US is not totalitarian, and I'm not saying that because I disagree but because as a political science masters student, I must tell you that you're essentially butchering a term that we need to actually use for real things. Just because some of that definition seems to apply to the US doesn't mean that the US is totalitarian. Totalitarianism is essentially big-time authoritarianism - and at best you can argue that the US is fairly authoritarian for a democracy.
1- Totalitarian regimes stay in power. The US has elections. Even though people argue that all parties are the same and that some elections are rigged, or that the corporations have all the power, this is only partially true. Different governments do have different tendencies - and those tendencies are not necessarily all driven by corporate greed. People have adopted this purely pessimistic view of US politics because frankly yes shit's bad, but there are still good people out there. 2- The US does not strive to "regulate very aspect of public and private life wherever possible". It does however try to regulate many aspects of public and private life - like ALL countries. And it's getting better. It's loosening up, getting less restrictive. 3- Free press in the US. The fact that the Republicans essentially drive Fox is not a symptom of totalitarianism. It's corruption perhaps, and bad journalism definitely. 4- "A single party" <- the US has multiple political parties 5- Cult of personality is more than fanboyism. True cult of personality is having Mao Zedong's face in every house and every building. Or Kim Jong Il's. Is Quebec totalitarian because some people have the hots for the leaders of our political parties? 6- The US government doesn't have "control over the economy". Corporations and the people behind them do. The US has SOME control over the economy - the government of every country does. 7- Freedom of speech is not perfectly respected in the US but it's doing good. 8- Mass surveillance, fine, that's bad. 9- Widespread use of terror, well, kind of - but I guess that's normal-ish considering.
"Totalitarian regimes stay in power. The US has elections. Even though people argue that all parties are the same and that some elections are rigged, or that the corporations have all the power, this is only partially true. Different governments do have different tendencies."
Orly? You prefer the left dick or the right to fuck you in the ass, they are just figure heads... Anyone who still believes in politics is either naive or stupid.
On August 11 2012 14:05 NeMeSiS3 wrote: "Totalitarian regimes stay in power. The US has elections. Even though people argue that all parties are the same and that some elections are rigged, or that the corporations have all the power, this is only partially true. Different governments do have different tendencies."
Orly? You prefer the left dick or the right to fuck you in the ass, they are just figure heads... Anyone who still believes in politics is either naive or stupid.
That's an oversimplification. I view it as the easy way out... Governments too corrupt so there's no reason to go out and vote. In reality if one of our two parties wins a disproportionate amount of elections for 20 odd years then both parties will have moved left, or right, of where they were originally. Has happened several times in our history with an unpopular party dissolving and an overly popular one splintering into radical and moderate wings.
It's our demographics that suck, as much as our political candidates. Too much apathy, materialism and sheer spoiledness overwhelming the intelligence of the few.
On August 11 2012 14:05 NeMeSiS3 wrote: "Totalitarian regimes stay in power. The US has elections. Even though people argue that all parties are the same and that some elections are rigged, or that the corporations have all the power, this is only partially true. Different governments do have different tendencies."
Orly? You prefer the left dick or the right to fuck you in the ass, they are just figure heads... Anyone who still believes in politics is either naive or stupid.
I think it's strange that I'm getting called "naive or stupid" for being in the incredibly complex "grey area" of politics that common folks and simpletons view in black and white.
Some people are completely ignorant of the partially corrupt and incompetent governments that run our countries, and so they vote with their delusions that everything will change for the better overnight. That's naivety.
On the other hand you have people who know about the failings of the partially corrupt and incompetent governments that run, and so they come up with elaborate stories about how the big bad politicians are out to get us - all of them. That's another kind of naivety from you "NeMeSiS3". You've chosen not to blindly trust the government - good for you. Instead, you blindly your own imagination, or you trust pessimists who blow their negativity toward the government out of proportions, and come up with a view of the government that's much worse than the reality of things.
Your seem to have an extremely narrow-minded view of the "left dick" and the "right dick". Maybe it's because you're still young or somehow you've never actually had any financial responsibilities in your life, and hell, maybe you've never bothered to look into it and that's why you chose to despise "the authority" as a whole instead of singling out the parts that are bad (and I know, there are a lot of bad parts).
So here's what I'm trying to say. At least in Canada and in the US, there are actual tangible changes that happen when the composition of the federal government changes. Most obvious examples are your taxes. The budgets also are sometimes WILDLY different and the way that public funds are spent varies hugely. But you don't see that from your basement. Moving billions of dollars from one sector of the economy to another actually has a very significant impact on, for instance, what kind of equipment hospitals are able to buy, what kind of care people are able to get in retirement homes, how easily people can get on social security and for what reasons, and how much you get. As an everyday worker, you may not notice that you've been able to get a 15 cents an hour raise because of your government. You may not notice that your dollars are worth and your buying power increase by 2% more because your country has doing good in its imports and exports.
Of course, some things never change, no matter who's in charge. Some of your money will be lost to corruption, some of it will get lost or will be spent highly inefficiently because of the overly complex bureaucratic system that's all gooped up with bullshit. Perhpas one party is better than the other at handling that. These problems exist because the government, like the rest of the population, has some dishonest and incompetent people. It's not all bad - look at what we have. Look what we can do. There are difference between the left dick and the right dick. One is more competent, one is less corrupt - they have different ideals, and will distribute the public funds differently - perhaps one party fits your morals better than the other. I'm not telling you to expect everything to abruptly get better, they're people who work with what they got.
It always pains me to see the kids talking about how everything sucks rather than really seriously looking at the situation, picking it apart and figuring out really what sucks and what doesn't. Your dislike of government is understandable, but don't limit yourself to a childish binary view of a truly complex system.
On August 11 2012 13:39 mikell wrote: The US is so totalitarian and yet the people do not care. This is something people should care about, but nobody will, because the majority will not be aware of it, even if it is posted all over the internet. If you speak up, they are going to listen, because they can't ignore you. Unfortunately, people do nothing.
Definition of totalitarianism: "Totalitarianism (or totalitarian rule) is a political system where the state recognizes no limits to its authority and strives to regulate every aspect of public and private life wherever feasible.[1] Totalitarian regimes stay in political power through an all-encompassing propaganda campaign, which is disseminated through the state-controlled mass media (Fox), a single party that is often marked by political repression, personality cultism (people in America idealize leaders), control over the economy (yep), regulation and restriction of speech, mass surveillance (LOL), and widespread use of terror." (Wikipedia)
And if you speak out against the majority, you will be ostracized *by not only the government but the people too*, this thread has plenty of examples of this perhaps its because if they side with the majority they themselves cant be singled out, until its too late. And the worst part is the people literally cheer this behavior on.
This thread has plenty examples of what now? You paranoid trying-way-too-hard-to-be-cool hypercynics are the vast majority in this thread lol.
On August 11 2012 14:05 NeMeSiS3 wrote: "Totalitarian regimes stay in power. The US has elections. Even though people argue that all parties are the same and that some elections are rigged, or that the corporations have all the power, this is only partially true. Different governments do have different tendencies."
Orly? You prefer the left dick or the right to fuck you in the ass, they are just figure heads... Anyone who still believes in politics is either naive or stupid.
I think it's strange that I'm getting called "naive or stupid" for being in the incredibly complex "grey area" of politics that common folks and simpletons view in black and white.
Some people are completely ignorant of the partially corrupt and incompetent governments that run our countries, and so they vote with their delusions that everything will change for the better overnight. That's naivety.
On the other hand you have people who know about the failings of the partially corrupt and incompetent governments that run, and so they come up with elaborate stories about how the big bad politicians are out to get us - all of them. That's another kind of naivety from you "NeMeSiS3". You've chosen not to blindly trust the government - good for you. Instead, you blindly your own imagination, or you trust pessimists who blow their negativity toward the government out of proportions, and come up with a view of the government that's much worse than the reality of things.
Your seem to have an extremely narrow-minded view of the "left dick" and the "right dick". Maybe it's because you're still young or somehow you've never actually had any financial responsibilities in your life, and hell, maybe you've never bothered to look into it and that's why you chose to despise "the authority" as a whole instead of singling out the parts that are bad (and I know, there are a lot of bad parts).
So here's what I'm trying to say. At least in Canada and in the US, there are actual tangible changes that happen when the composition of the federal government changes. Most obvious examples are your taxes. The budgets also are sometimes WILDLY different and the way that public funds are spent varies hugely. But you don't see that from your basement.
Of course, some things never change, no matter who's in charge. Some of your money will be lost to corruption, some of it will get lost or will be spent highly inefficiently because of the overly complex bureaucratic system that's all gooped up with bullshit. Perhpas one party is better than the other at handling that. These problems exist because the government, like the rest of the population, has some dishonest and incompetent people. It's not all bad - look at what we have. Look what we can do.
It always pains me to see the kids talking about how everything sucks rather than really seriously looking at the situation, picking it apart and figuring out really what sucks and what doesn't. Your dislike of government is understandable, but don't limit yourself to a childish binary view of a truly complex system.
"On the other hand you have people who know about the failings of the partially corrupt and incompetent governments that run, and so they come up with elaborate stories about how the big bad politicians are out to get us - all of them. "
Actually, I have never once said they're quote "out to get us" in fact I know many politicians and frankly that's far from it, I merely stated that whether you vote left or right "politics" has forgotten its role as public servant and now frankly is more of a joke, do I vote? Yes, might as well cast the ballot with everyone else but do I care whether Stephen Harper or some other idiot gets it? Not quite.
I am the type of person who looks at the fine print, and what I've noticed through years of being fucked over is that the government is supporting one thing alone, its own interests. Now you might say "well the government is for the people! That's YOUR interests you silly fuck" but that's not the case, as I put out they are not public servants anymore but people who rose to power out of ambition, not service. (obviously not all of them, but if you're moving up in the chain you are going to be the most ambitous and do the most things the higher ups want) I mean fuck, lobbying? That is pure bribing allowed for politics.
So if you want to generalize me, generalize me as a person who decides not to blindly follow the government or it's comments since in the past (Opera house germany, gulf of tolken etc) there have been so many lies told to make the public think one way but move the other that it isn't worth it. I also don't think government is "out to get you" but I do think it is fine with keeping things the way they are, and I disagree with how things "are" so I prefer to diverge from the path and try out new ideas.
On August 11 2012 13:39 mikell wrote: The US is so totalitarian and yet the people do not care. This is something people should care about, but nobody will, because the majority will not be aware of it, even if it is posted all over the internet. If you speak up, they are going to listen, because they can't ignore you. Unfortunately, people do nothing.
Definition of totalitarianism: "Totalitarianism (or totalitarian rule) is a political system where the state recognizes no limits to its authority and strives to regulate every aspect of public and private life wherever feasible.[1] Totalitarian regimes stay in political power through an all-encompassing propaganda campaign, which is disseminated through the state-controlled mass media (Fox), a single party that is often marked by political repression, personality cultism (people in America idealize leaders), control over the economy (yep), regulation and restriction of speech, mass surveillance (LOL), and widespread use of terror." (Wikipedia)
And if you speak out against the majority, you will be ostracized *by not only the government but the people too*, this thread has plenty of examples of this perhaps its because if they side with the majority they themselves cant be singled out, until its too late. And the worst part is the people literally cheer this behavior on.
This thread has plenty examples of what now? You paranoid trying-way-too-hard-to-be-cool hypercynics are the vast majority in this thread lol.
Sorry, when did not wanting my position known at all times wherever I might roam = to "paranoid trying-way-too-hard-to-be-cool hypercynics". Privacy is not a privilege and should be a right, just like freedom of speech etc. Not strapped with a GPS every time I decide to move in public. Like I've said before, people prefer security over freedom and well, if that's what you want then you have it, document your every move and send it off to Washington, but leave me and my actions alone. I guess I'm extremely cynical for wanting that^^
This seems like bullshit, it seems like a desperation ploy by Wikileaks to invigorate its users more then anything else. Theres no actual information anywhere that I can find, no leaked documents anywhere at all, and with something this big you would send it to every fucking person ever and start up the revolution. Theres even a website for trapwire for fucks sake. This reminds me alot of War of the World's and when it first aired on radio. When the crazy conspiracy fucks on China daily don't even touch it..
On August 11 2012 14:05 NeMeSiS3 wrote: "Totalitarian regimes stay in power. The US has elections. Even though people argue that all parties are the same and that some elections are rigged, or that the corporations have all the power, this is only partially true. Different governments do have different tendencies."
Orly? You prefer the left dick or the right to fuck you in the ass, they are just figure heads... Anyone who still believes in politics is either naive or stupid.
I think it's strange that I'm getting called "naive or stupid" for being in the incredibly complex "grey area" of politics that common folks and simpletons view in black and white.
Some people are completely ignorant of the partially corrupt and incompetent governments that run our countries, and so they vote with their delusions that everything will change for the better overnight. That's naivety.
On the other hand you have people who know about the failings of the partially corrupt and incompetent governments that run, and so they come up with elaborate stories about how the big bad politicians are out to get us - all of them. That's another kind of naivety from you "NeMeSiS3". You've chosen not to blindly trust the government - good for you. Instead, you blindly your own imagination, or you trust pessimists who blow their negativity toward the government out of proportions, and come up with a view of the government that's much worse than the reality of things.
Your seem to have an extremely narrow-minded view of the "left dick" and the "right dick". Maybe it's because you're still young or somehow you've never actually had any financial responsibilities in your life, and hell, maybe you've never bothered to look into it and that's why you chose to despise "the authority" as a whole instead of singling out the parts that are bad (and I know, there are a lot of bad parts).
So here's what I'm trying to say. At least in Canada and in the US, there are actual tangible changes that happen when the composition of the federal government changes. Most obvious examples are your taxes. The budgets also are sometimes WILDLY different and the way that public funds are spent varies hugely. But you don't see that from your basement.
Of course, some things never change, no matter who's in charge. Some of your money will be lost to corruption, some of it will get lost or will be spent highly inefficiently because of the overly complex bureaucratic system that's all gooped up with bullshit. Perhpas one party is better than the other at handling that. These problems exist because the government, like the rest of the population, has some dishonest and incompetent people. It's not all bad - look at what we have. Look what we can do.
It always pains me to see the kids talking about how everything sucks rather than really seriously looking at the situation, picking it apart and figuring out really what sucks and what doesn't. Your dislike of government is understandable, but don't limit yourself to a childish binary view of a truly complex system.
"On the other hand you have people who know about the failings of the partially corrupt and incompetent governments that run, and so they come up with elaborate stories about how the big bad politicians are out to get us - all of them. "
Actually, I have never once said they're quote "out to get us" in fact I know many politicians and frankly that's far from it, I merely stated that whether you vote left or right "politics" has forgotten its role as public servant and now frankly is more of a joke, do I vote? Yes, might as well cast the ballot with everyone else but do I care whether Stephen Harper or some other idiot gets it? Not quite.
I am the type of person who looks at the fine print, and what I've noticed through years of being fucked over is that the government is supporting one thing alone, its own interests. Now you might say "well the government is for the people! That's YOUR interests you silly fuck" but that's not the case, as I put out they are not public servants anymore but people who rose to power out of ambition, not service. (obviously not all of them, but if you're moving up in the chain you are going to be the most ambitous and do the most things the higher ups want) I mean fuck, lobbying? That is pure bribing allowed for politics.
So if you want to generalize me, generalize me as a person who decides not to blindly follow the government or it's comments since in the past (Opera house germany, gulf of tolken etc) there have been so many lies told to make the public think one way but move the other that it isn't worth it. I also don't think government is "out to get you" but I do think it is fine with keeping things the way they are, and I disagree with how things "are" so I prefer to diverge from the path and try out new ideas.
I disagree that politicians have forgotten their role have public servants. There have always been bad and stupid people, we still have them. Regardless of that, here we are, one of the richest countries in the most prosperous times our species has ever known, no contest. We're more materialistic than ever, and that's nice for us because we have the most money we've ever had. Our life expectancy is extremely high, and every couple of months someone comes up with something that makes our lives better and easier to be lazy at.
And now you're that you have this little faith in the entire regime because "the government is the people" is a bit of a stretch?
There haven't been massive swings in the governments integrity and competence. Many people suck, and governments are made out of many people, many of which suck. We can say that about any specific group of people. Why not people from Montreal - or hell, why not my family, or yours!
So here's what we've got. A government that's as corrupt and inefficient as ever - and if we keep working at it, we'll keep it reasonably clean and reasonably efficient, while never elevating it to any sort of "divinity", because no matter what, people will always do things that'll make you ask what the fuck is going on.
Edit: If this thread's OP is true though, that's the government doing some really bad things. But they probably think they're doing good... It's that whole thing again. Anyway going to bed, cheers.
On August 11 2012 14:54 KnightwhoSaysNI wrote: This seems like bullshit, it seems like a desperation ploy by Wikileaks to invigorate its users more then anything else. Theres no actual information anywhere that I can find, no leaked documents anywhere at all, and with something this big you would send it to every fucking person ever and start up the revolution. Theres even a website for trapwire for fucks sake. This reminds me alot of War of the World's and when it first aired on radio. When the crazy conspiracy fucks on China daily don't even touch it..
Nice of you to post that without reading anything to begin with. If you read the actual website for trapwire you'd see,
"TrapWire is a unique, predictive software system designed to detect patterns indicative of terrorist attacks or criminal operations. Utilizing a proprietary, rules-based engine, TrapWire detects, analyzes and alerts on suspicious events as they are collected over periods of time and across multiple locations. Through the systematic capture of these pre-attack indicators, terrorist or criminal surveillance and pre-attack planning operations can be identified -- and appropriate law enforcement counter measures employed ahead of the attack. As such, our clients are provided with the ability to prevent the terrorist or criminal event, rather than simply mitigate damage or loss of life. "
As for the leaked documents that you spent 0 second searching for they are right here. Here's a fun one,
Godfather just called.... he "found" my luggage in CA..... don't want to know how or who died..... But it'll be in the States in a few days! --Lauren Goodrich Director of Analysis Senior Eurasia Analyst STRATFOR T: 512.744.4311 F: 512.744.4334 lauren.goodrich@stratfor.com www.stratfor.com
From: "scott stewart" Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 11:01:30 -0400 To: 'bart mongoven' Subject: RE: Public Policy Question for Coca-Cola Yeah, I'm not sure how that works now either. Bart, is this something you guys can still help with?
From: Anya Alfano [mailto:anya.alfano@stratfor.com] Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2009 10:56 AM To: Fred Burton; scott stewart Subject: Public Policy Question for Coca-Cola Coca-Cola just sent me a long list of questions regarding PETA/Animal Activism and the upcoming Olympics in Vancouver--I've pasted the questions below. I'm not entirely clear on how much we can task the public policy group at this point--is there any guidance you can give me on that front? Coke has asked for a short teleconference with one of our analysts to discuss this issue--is that something I could ask Kathy, Bart or Joe to do, or would that be off the table at this point? Stick, are these questions something that you have a handle on, if we aren't able to get info from the policy folks?
Any thoughts or guidance would be helpful. Thanks, Anya
Questions--- -- How many PETA supporters are there in Canada? -- How many of these are inclined toward activism? -- To what extent will US-based PETA supporters travel to Canada to support activism? -- What is PETA's methodology for planning and executing activism? (Understanding this better would certainly help us to recognize indicators should they appear.) -- To what extent is PETA in Canada linked to PETA in the US or elsewhere? -- To what extent are the actions of PETA in one country controlled by an oversight board/governing body? -- To what extent could non-PETA hangers-on (such as anarchists or ALF supporters) get involved in any protest activity?
Then again I'm sure you didn't read any of this because anyone who thinks this stuff happens and is true is a "crazy conspiracy fuck"?
This is absolutely absurd. We don't even have working security cameras in the vast majority of NYCHA houses in New York City. The ones that do work look like shit, and they certainly don't have facial recognition technology.
When it's a humongous uphill battle to get surveillance video of a three-year-old getting shot in the head in a public park, I can safely promise you that there is no quasi-secret government agency monitoring you with sophisticated facial recognition technology as you walk down the street in bumfuck-nowheresville.
On August 11 2012 14:54 KnightwhoSaysNI wrote: This seems like bullshit, it seems like a desperation ploy by Wikileaks to invigorate its users more then anything else. Theres no actual information anywhere that I can find, no leaked documents anywhere at all, and with something this big you would send it to every fucking person ever and start up the revolution. Theres even a website for trapwire for fucks sake. This reminds me alot of War of the World's and when it first aired on radio. When the crazy conspiracy fucks on China daily don't even touch it..
Nice of you to call people crazy conspiracy fucks without reading anything to begin with. If you read the actual website for trapwire you'd see,
"TrapWire is a unique, predictive software system designed to detect patterns indicative of terrorist attacks or criminal operations. Utilizing a proprietary, rules-based engine, TrapWire detects, analyzes and alerts on suspicious events as they are collected over periods of time and across multiple locations. Through the systematic capture of these pre-attack indicators, terrorist or criminal surveillance and pre-attack planning operations can be identified -- and appropriate law enforcement counter measures employed ahead of the attack. As such, our clients are provided with the ability to prevent the terrorist or criminal event, rather than simply mitigate damage or loss of life. "
As for the leaked documents that you spent 0 second searching for they are right here. Here's a fun one,
Godfather just called.... he "found" my luggage in CA..... don't want to know how or who died..... But it'll be in the States in a few days! --Lauren Goodrich Director of Analysis Senior Eurasia Analyst STRATFOR T: 512.744.4311 F: 512.744.4334 lauren.goodrich@stratfor.com www.stratfor.com
From: "scott stewart" Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 11:01:30 -0400 To: 'bart mongoven' Subject: RE: Public Policy Question for Coca-Cola Yeah, I'm not sure how that works now either. Bart, is this something you guys can still help with?
From: Anya Alfano [mailto:anya.alfano@stratfor.com] Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2009 10:56 AM To: Fred Burton; scott stewart Subject: Public Policy Question for Coca-Cola Coca-Cola just sent me a long list of questions regarding PETA/Animal Activism and the upcoming Olympics in Vancouver--I've pasted the questions below. I'm not entirely clear on how much we can task the public policy group at this point--is there any guidance you can give me on that front? Coke has asked for a short teleconference with one of our analysts to discuss this issue--is that something I could ask Kathy, Bart or Joe to do, or would that be off the table at this point? Stick, are these questions something that you have a handle on, if we aren't able to get info from the policy folks?
Any thoughts or guidance would be helpful. Thanks, Anya
Questions--- -- How many PETA supporters are there in Canada? -- How many of these are inclined toward activism? -- To what extent will US-based PETA supporters travel to Canada to support activism? -- What is PETA's methodology for planning and executing activism? (Understanding this better would certainly help us to recognize indicators should they appear.) -- To what extent is PETA in Canada linked to PETA in the US or elsewhere? -- To what extent are the actions of PETA in one country controlled by an oversight board/governing body? -- To what extent could non-PETA hangers-on (such as anarchists or ALF supporters) get involved in any protest activity?
Then again I'm sure you didn't read any of this because anyone who disagrees with you is a "crazy conspiracy fuck" and you're the only sane person alive.
I don't see anything in your post that makes this any less of a "crazy conspiracy" pile of bullshit. So there's some e-mails by a private company who consults with firms on political activism. So they wrote a paragraph on their website, probably as part of some application for a grant/contract, that vaguely references collating information and predicting future events. I have no idea what the fuck that e-mail is supposed to show. That coca-cola is asking about PETA activisits? This is news? This is a surprise to someone? This is meaningful?
Where is the smoking gun here? I see absolutely nothing that even raises an eyebrow.
It's like people actually thought those black globes were just solid black plastic spheres before this "leak". Anyway, I'm pleasantly surprised no one has pulled out the Ben Franklin quote, that's usually a go-to for a conspiracy nut who doesn't have any other compelling argument.
On August 11 2012 13:39 mikell wrote: The US is so totalitarian and yet the people do not care. This is something people should care about, but nobody will, because the majority will not be aware of it, even if it is posted all over the internet. If you speak up, they are going to listen, because they can't ignore you. Unfortunately, people do nothing.
Definition of totalitarianism: "Totalitarianism (or totalitarian rule) is a political system where the state recognizes no limits to its authority and strives to regulate every aspect of public and private life wherever feasible.[1] Totalitarian regimes stay in political power through an all-encompassing propaganda campaign, which is disseminated through the state-controlled mass media (Fox), a single party that is often marked by political repression, personality cultism (people in America idealize leaders), control over the economy (yep), regulation and restriction of speech, mass surveillance (LOL), and widespread use of terror." (Wikipedia)
And if you speak out against the majority, you will be ostracized *by not only the government but the people too*, this thread has plenty of examples of this perhaps its because if they side with the majority they themselves cant be singled out, until its too late. And the worst part is the people literally cheer this behavior on.
This thread has plenty examples of what now? You paranoid trying-way-too-hard-to-be-cool hypercynics are the vast majority in this thread lol.
I think in order to be paranoid you have to first be scared. Im just making observations.
On August 11 2012 14:54 KnightwhoSaysNI wrote: This seems like bullshit, it seems like a desperation ploy by Wikileaks to invigorate its users more then anything else. Theres no actual information anywhere that I can find, no leaked documents anywhere at all, and with something this big you would send it to every fucking person ever and start up the revolution. Theres even a website for trapwire for fucks sake. This reminds me alot of War of the World's and when it first aired on radio. When the crazy conspiracy fucks on China daily don't even touch it..
I don't really understand your objection here. Are you saying you don't believe, based on the emails, leak and website descriptions that they are using government owned cameras and monitoring systems to collect and store mass amounts of data about people and, among other things, sell their information to companies like coca cola? or are you saying that you do believe it but it isn't important.
Just want to be clear on that, because your tone seems to imply that if the leak IS Correct it would be significant enough to justify "starting up the revolution"... But for some Reason also based on your tone I feel like when and if the leak is actually confirmed you will switch tactics and claim it is not important. Just want to clarify before I go digging up info for what is potentially a lost cause.
On August 11 2012 16:04 seiferoth10 wrote: It's like people actually thought those black globes were just solid black plastic spheres before this "leak". Anyway, I'm pleasantly surprised no one has pulled out the Ben Franklin quote, that's usually a go-to for a conspiracy nut who doesn't have any other compelling argument.
Ah, the famous: " Those willing to give up liberty for security deserve niether and will lose both " ? . Yea, you'll always get a few of those.
If this was the case, the people who process security clearances have the easiest jobs ever. Just turn on imba country map hack, type in person's name and see if they're a threat or not.
... so is this the reason why a security clearance investigation costs a couple g's... probably not
On August 11 2012 16:20 MorningMusume11 wrote: If this was the case, the people who process security clearances have the easiest jobs ever. Just turn on imba country map hack, type in person's name and see if they're a threat or not.
... so is this the reason why a security clearance investigation costs a couple g's... probably not
Perhaps in a few decades your imba hack can become a reality. Right now it's still in development stage.
On August 11 2012 16:20 MorningMusume11 wrote: If this was the case, the people who process security clearances have the easiest jobs ever. Just turn on imba country map hack, type in person's name and see if they're a threat or not.
... so is this the reason why a security clearance investigation costs a couple g's... probably not
Perhaps in a few decades your imba hack can become a reality. Right now it's still in development stage.
haha poor american citizens. closed beta testers to skynet.
this is about more then security. it's also about controlling the future of people with that pre-collected info (blackmail, extorsion and so on). a random tries to become someone. later on, he gets few tapes showed in his face about stuff he did in his back yard or whatever and it could/will be the end. he's a pawn now. he wont even get payed to shut it.
On August 11 2012 14:54 KnightwhoSaysNI wrote: This seems like bullshit, it seems like a desperation ploy by Wikileaks to invigorate its users more then anything else. Theres no actual information anywhere that I can find, no leaked documents anywhere at all, and with something this big you would send it to every fucking person ever and start up the revolution. Theres even a website for trapwire for fucks sake. This reminds me alot of War of the World's and when it first aired on radio. When the crazy conspiracy fucks on China daily don't even touch it..
Nice of you to call people crazy conspiracy fucks without reading anything to begin with. If you read the actual website for trapwire you'd see,
"TrapWire is a unique, predictive software system designed to detect patterns indicative of terrorist attacks or criminal operations. Utilizing a proprietary, rules-based engine, TrapWire detects, analyzes and alerts on suspicious events as they are collected over periods of time and across multiple locations. Through the systematic capture of these pre-attack indicators, terrorist or criminal surveillance and pre-attack planning operations can be identified -- and appropriate law enforcement counter measures employed ahead of the attack. As such, our clients are provided with the ability to prevent the terrorist or criminal event, rather than simply mitigate damage or loss of life. "
As for the leaked documents that you spent 0 second searching for they are right here. Here's a fun one,
Godfather just called.... he "found" my luggage in CA..... don't want to know how or who died..... But it'll be in the States in a few days! --Lauren Goodrich Director of Analysis Senior Eurasia Analyst STRATFOR T: 512.744.4311 F: 512.744.4334 lauren.goodrich@stratfor.com www.stratfor.com
From: "scott stewart" Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 11:01:30 -0400 To: 'bart mongoven' Subject: RE: Public Policy Question for Coca-Cola Yeah, I'm not sure how that works now either. Bart, is this something you guys can still help with?
From: Anya Alfano [mailto:anya.alfano@stratfor.com] Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2009 10:56 AM To: Fred Burton; scott stewart Subject: Public Policy Question for Coca-Cola Coca-Cola just sent me a long list of questions regarding PETA/Animal Activism and the upcoming Olympics in Vancouver--I've pasted the questions below. I'm not entirely clear on how much we can task the public policy group at this point--is there any guidance you can give me on that front? Coke has asked for a short teleconference with one of our analysts to discuss this issue--is that something I could ask Kathy, Bart or Joe to do, or would that be off the table at this point? Stick, are these questions something that you have a handle on, if we aren't able to get info from the policy folks?
Any thoughts or guidance would be helpful. Thanks, Anya
Questions--- -- How many PETA supporters are there in Canada? -- How many of these are inclined toward activism? -- To what extent will US-based PETA supporters travel to Canada to support activism? -- What is PETA's methodology for planning and executing activism? (Understanding this better would certainly help us to recognize indicators should they appear.) -- To what extent is PETA in Canada linked to PETA in the US or elsewhere? -- To what extent are the actions of PETA in one country controlled by an oversight board/governing body? -- To what extent could non-PETA hangers-on (such as anarchists or ALF supporters) get involved in any protest activity?
Then again I'm sure you didn't read any of this because anyone who disagrees with you is a "crazy conspiracy fuck" and you're the only sane person alive.
I don't see anything in your post that makes this any less of a "crazy conspiracy" pile of bullshit. So there's some e-mails by a private company who consults with firms on political activism. So they wrote a paragraph on their website, probably as part of some application for a grant/contract, that vaguely references collating information and predicting future events. I have no idea what the fuck that e-mail is supposed to show. That coca-cola is asking about PETA activisits? This is news? This is a surprise to someone? This is meaningful?
Where is the smoking gun here? I see absolutely nothing that even raises an eyebrow.
Alright so the links I linked weren't very damning as you say. I've found more. Hopefully you'll raise and some other people will raise an eyebrow. There's several quotes and I'll provide links for each one. This took a while to read them all.
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Fighting Grassroots Terrorism: Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 08:09:34 -0400 From: Michael Maness To: Fred Burton
Kudos to Scott for another insightful article. As you know, this is exactly the message we've been pushing for almost seven years now -- and gaining some traction. TrapWire SAR reports are fed directly/automatically into the National SAR Initiative (NSI) that Scott mentions...as well as the FBI's eGuardian system if/when there's confirmed nexus to terrorism or major crimes (which is happening frequently). Additionally, our networks in LA, Vegas and DC all support See Something Say Something (S4 as I call it), with TrapWire actually acting as the analytic tool behind the scenes. Pentagon, Ft. Meade and USMC (which is pushing to get TrapWire deployed globally for their bases) all feed their own military-centric S4 type programs. ("Eagle Eyes" at Quantico for instance).
The surveillance detection was identified by the TrapWire surveillance system. I'm getting the details on the recons and m.o. The matter is very dicey. Pls don't pass this around. Thanks
From: Fred Burton [mailto:burton@stratfor.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2010 8:33 PM To: secure@stratfor.com Subject: LA Terror Plot (not for pub - pls do not forward) According to a very good source responsible for domestic surveillance operations, an extremely serious al Qaeda terror plot has been uncovered targeting a financial institution, an entertainment center and a government office bldg in Los Angeles. The same terrorist surveillance team conducted pre-operational surveillance of all three sites. The group is currently under watch....
source Remember that bit on the news for those bullets fired at the White House? Well they used tripwire to find the guy for that. Quote Three
[alpha] TrapWire on Shots fired at White House
Released on 2012-08-09 18:00 GMT Email-ID 188257 Date 2011-11-16 21:23:38 From burton@stratfor.com To alpha@stratfor.com List-Name alpha@stratfor.com DC Metro ran traces through TrapWire soon as the incident happened. National Park Police have approached us for a proposal to cover all of the Mall area -- in addition to the Fed and Military sites already covered. Our network there is growing almost daily.
A bullet hit an exterior window of the White House but was stopped by ballistic glass, and the Secret Service was investigating Wednesday whether the incident is connected to shots fired nearby last week. An additional round of ammunition was found on the White House exterior. The bullets were found Tuesday morning.
Released on 2012-08-09 18:00 GMT Email-ID 375734 Date 2010-09-22 23:11:23 From burton@stratfor.com To aaron.pigeon@stratfor.com You think we hit the mark for the blog world? I think so.
This week, 500 surveillance cameras were activated on the NYC subway system to focus on pre-operational terrorist surveillance. The surveillance technology is also operational on high-value targets (HVTs) in DC, Las Vegas, Los Angeles and London and is called TrapWire (www.abraxasapps.com). TrapWire is one of the most innovative tools developed since 9-11 to help mitigate terrorist threats. From a protective intelligence perspective, TrapWire does have the ability to share information on suspicious events or suspects between cities. Operationally, the ability to identify hostile surveillance at one target set -- in multiple cities -- can be used to neutralize terror threats by interrupting the attack cycle. Meaning, a suspect conducting surveillance of the NYC subway can also be spotted by TrapWire conducting similar activity at the DC subway, connecting the infamous dots. An additional benefit of TrapWire is that the system can also be used to help "walk back the cat" after an attack to identify terrorist suspects and modus operandi. I can also see the tool being very effective in identifying general street crime.
Immediate update from JTTF. There is an EXPLOSIVE COMPONENT found in the package. Subject has made explosive devices in the past and he is IN CUSTODY. JTTF is continuing the investigation.
Texas Department of Public Safety - KAM
Intelligence and Counterterrorism Division
TEXAS FUSION CENTER
Phone: (512) 424-7981
Fax: (512) 424-7418
txfusion@txdps.state.tx.us
CONFIDENTIAL NOTICE: This is a CONFIDENTIAL LAW ENFORCEMENT COMMUNICATION. DO NOT disseminate, distribute, use or copy this communications if you have received this message in error and/or are not the intended recipient. DESTROY all copies of the original and contact the sender by reply e-mail or by calling the Texas Fusion Center toll free at 1-866-786-5972.
From: TXDPSIntelCenter Sent: Friday, May 14, 2010 11:38 AM Cc: Ray, Lisa; Grigsby, Aaron; Alexis, Alvin; Dendy, Kirby; Morales, Jose (Major); Thompson, Tim Subject: FINAL REPORT: Bomb Squad Investigating Suspicious Package Downtown - Austin, TX
CID - Austin conducted follow up on report of a suspicious package at the Gault Building in Austin. The package was left in the pre-trial court by a known subject. Person was observed leaving the package and was taken into custody outside of the building. An officer of the court opened the package which revealed a letter. Further investigation is being completed on the package by JTTF. ICT is providing subject work up.
Texas Department of Public Safety - KAM
Intelligence and Counterterrorism Division
TEXAS FUSION CENTER
Phone: (512) 424-7981
Fax: (512) 424-7418
txfusion@txdps.state.tx.us
CONFIDENTIAL NOTICE: This is a CONFIDENTIAL LAW ENFORCEMENT COMMUNICATION. DO NOT disseminate, distribute, use or copy this communications if you have received this message in error and/or are not the intended recipient. DESTROY all copies of the original and contact the sender by reply e-mail or by calling the Texas Fusion Center toll free at 1-866-786-5972.
Title: Suspicious package incites downtown evac
Location: Austin, Texas
MMC CIR #3: Identifying events with operational value...corroborating critical information.
Excerpt from News Article:
The Gault building at the Travis County Justice Center in downtown Austin is being evacuated due to a suspicious package, according to Travis County Dispatch.
The mandatory evacuation came around 10 a.m. and Austin police said the bomb squad is on the scene. Meanwhile, the Travis County Justice Center is on lockdown.
The Austin Police Department and Travis County Sheriff's Office are investigating.
[Fwd: TrapWire on 100 Percent Chance of WMD Attack]]
Released on 2012-08-09 18:00 GMT Email-ID 871999 Date 2011-02-15 14:33:17 From burton@stratfor.com To analysts@stratfor.com List-Name analysts@stratfor.com TrapWire is in place at every HVT in NYC, DC, Vegas, London, Ottawa and LA.
-------- Original Message -------- Subject: TrapWire on 100 Percent Chance of WMD Attack] Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2011 07:29:47 -0600 From: Fred Burton To: 'TACTICAL'
>From TrapWire --
By the way -- the bad guys figured out long ago how paranoid we are about anything that smacks of WMD…even if it's a deception.
Case in point: Dihren Barot, the AQ surveillant who now sits in UK prison, actually stated in his surveillance reports related to the Prudential Building op in NJ that the attack team should paint the gas and oxygen canisters with the yellow and black radioactive symbol. He opined (correctly I believe) that when first responders found bits and pieces of the yellow/black metal, they'd freak out and seal the entire area…and no one would ever believe the USG's subsequent explanation that it wasn’t really radioactive. The bad guys only need to be right once…..
(By the way, we brief Barot and many other real-world case studies in our Surveillance Detection training related to TrapWire. Always a bit hit with the LE crowds).
[TACTICAL] Fwd: 60 Minutes segment on NYPD counter-terrorism
Released on 2012-08-09 18:00 GMT Email-ID 1569288 Date 2011-09-26 19:54:59 From burton@stratfor.com To tactical@stratfor.com List-Name tactical@stratfor.com Note their TrapWire intuitive video surveillance capabilities. NYPD has done what no US Govt Agency has been able to do in the CT arena.
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: 60 Minutes segment on NYPD counter-terrorism Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2011 11:45:34 -0500 From: Grant Perry To: Fred Burton CC: Brian Genchur , Andrew Damon
Fighting terrorism in New York City
Grant Perry Sr VP, Multimedia & Partnerships STRATFOR 221 W. 6th St., Ste 400 Austin, TX 78733 +1.512.744.4323 grant.perry@stratfor.com
Released on 2012-08-09 18:00 GMT Email-ID 1576797 Date 2011-07-29 18:18:04 From burton@stratfor.com To tactical@stratfor.com List-Name tactical@stratfor.com Our primary work in this area has been the iWatch program. We built the prototype for LAPD (https://report.iwatchla.net/page/iwatch/iwatchlogin.aspx?site=LA ) and have also now built systems for DC Metro, and the Army. Many more cities/sites will be coming on-line shortly -- including DPS and Austin. iWatch pulls community member reporting into the TrapWire search engine and compares SARs across the country...with potential matches being fed back to the local LE agency. An amazing amount of good quality reporting is coming in from alert citizens (and police officers) in the DC area in particular.
Source Apparently they have dark web data mining also Quote Nine
Fred Burton wrote:
I don't buy the 90%. Lean more towards 60-70%. I've seen outstanding HUMINT coverages which run 180 degrees from OS, combined with SIGINT.
The other aspect is the Dark Web data mining streams now combined w/surveillance logs AND technology like TrapWire. Neither of which very few people see.
The high public figures are disinformation to protect sources and methods (foreign liaison channels.)
The volumnes of granular data for example on Iran or Mexico today out-pace the OS.
Aaron Colvin wrote:
So, since [as I understand it] upwards of 90% of all real intel comes from OS, isn't it safe to say these non-gov guys without the TS/SCI info could come somewhere close to the answers?
On 9/22/10 9:48 AM, Fred Burton wrote:
Agree
Having said that, studies like this are read now inside the CIA, NCTC, FBI. Back in the day, nobody read anything other than what each other wrote.
The challenge has always been that educational institutions and think tanks lack the access to very valuable feeds of information primarily in the SIGINT arena, so they lack 20-25% of the granular data.
For example, let's say the FBI is investigating HZ surveillances in CONUS, predicated upon an intercept that indicates the go order has been given. The think tank does not have access to either reporting stream.
Source Here's an Abraxas Trapwire contract you can read for yourself HereSource Raise any eyebrows yet? I don't see how you guys can all just dismiss this like it's some Alex Jones conspiracy bullshit. Edit: Cameras used are Sony CD55NV-36S picturesource for camera Total price? Trapwire Initial deployment/install > $252,000.00 - Annual Recurring Fee $151,000 Cameras price? $427,000.00. I for one welcome our new Orwellian overlords.
Inevitable... don't care honestly. In the miniscule chance (actually hyper miniscule since I'm fairly certain intelligence datamining relies on algorithm key term hits..) some overworked NSA person actually cares about me, I don't care back that he even cares. Let him or her know about my porn habits or what I write on TL...maybe I entertained them for an hour who knows.
On August 11 2012 16:36 xM(Z wrote: this is about more then security. it's also about controlling the future of people with that pre-collected info (blackmail, extorsion and so on). a random tries to become someone. later on, he gets few tapes showed in his face about stuff he did in his back yard or whatever and it could/will be the end. he's a pawn now. he wont even get payed to shut it.
This is correct. It's not about the ten bazillion tons of data, its about the 2GB that will silence someone. "Leaks" can be so inconvenient.
And if you think it won't happen, what are your politicians doing in bed with corporate interests?
The "climate of fear" is as good as direct action when trying to shut people up, even better because it leaves no traces.
On August 11 2012 16:52 forgottendreams wrote: Inevitable... don't care honestly. In the miniscule chance (actually hyper miniscule since I'm fairly certain intelligence datamining relies on algorithm key term hits..) some overworked NSA person actually cares about me, I don't care back that he even cares. Let him or her know about my porn habits or what I write on TL...maybe I entertained them for an hour who knows.
It's not just about YOU. It's the society that you live in, where inconvenient truths can be silenced at will. Do you not care that someone else's porn habits could be used to disadvantage you?!
On August 11 2012 11:07 Slaughter wrote: I have to disagree with the people saying that the US would "get blown off the face of the earth" if they invaded Canada. No country would throw around a Nuke for the sake of another country. Won't happen because then they put themselves in the line of the US nuclear arsenal which why would they want that? The US WOULD nuke anyone asap who was nuking them so no I don't think Russia would risk that.
No one is going to use nukes unless they are crazy or are retaliating against said crazy.
So basically nukes are there only to prevent nuking. What a great device nukes are!
OMG INVASION OF PRIVACY! Yeah, for sure, but i cant imagine this possibly effecting me in any negative way ever. Big corporate guy has information about me? Duh, so what? I understand people being up in arms about it, but i'm personally indifferent
On August 11 2012 11:07 Slaughter wrote: I have to disagree with the people saying that the US would "get blown off the face of the earth" if they invaded Canada. No country would throw around a Nuke for the sake of another country. Won't happen because then they put themselves in the line of the US nuclear arsenal which why would they want that? The US WOULD nuke anyone asap who was nuking them so no I don't think Russia would risk that.
No one is going to use nukes unless they are crazy or are retaliating against said crazy.
So basically nukes are there only to prevent nuking. What a great device nukes are!
Well, thanks to the Nuke we haven't had any large scale wars since 1945.
On August 11 2012 11:07 Slaughter wrote: I have to disagree with the people saying that the US would "get blown off the face of the earth" if they invaded Canada. No country would throw around a Nuke for the sake of another country. Won't happen because then they put themselves in the line of the US nuclear arsenal which why would they want that? The US WOULD nuke anyone asap who was nuking them so no I don't think Russia would risk that.
No one is going to use nukes unless they are crazy or are retaliating against said crazy.
So basically nukes are there only to prevent nuking. What a great device nukes are!
Well, thanks to the Nuke we haven't had any large scale wars since 1945.
In that case we should sell nukes to any hostile country Like Iran, North Korea etc. because, there wouldnt be any more war ! The reason this aint happening is because the US wants war with Iran to get its oil and the Iran wants peace so it is developping and building Nuclear warheads.
Not all surprising, but where will they stop is the worrying part, if they ever stop, doubtful.
Go wikileaks, i hope Assange is granted asylum tomorrow (i believe the ecuadorians said they would give an answer sunday) as a big Fuck you to the US. and to Sweden.
On August 11 2012 09:51 ilikeredheads wrote: Freedom isn't free. The US government is there to serve large private corporations, not the general public.
Since when was freedom not free...? That definitely makes no sense.
Freedom is deffinitely not free. Who do you think gave you your freedom? Why is freedom only granted to some?
The freedom given you has been paid for with alot of sweat, tears and blood. Everyone'd do well remembering this. Then maybe no one would so freely give it away.
Other than that, freedom is, in part, a commodity. Traded, much like money and services. In many ways more money = more freedom. In many ways more power = more freedom. In such ways more freedom for some = less freedom for others. But some freedoms no one can take away from you; until they do...
Know that people have bled and died for your freedom. Will you do the same if called upon to defend it?
(Not suggesting it has or will come to this within your lifetime, but this is part of a struggle that goes on daily in big parts of the world. We can ofcourse hope such struggles never reach us)
On August 11 2012 09:33 AgentChaos wrote: lol i bet uk doesnt have this shit (we are too poor)
even if we did, what does it matter?
Is everyone who is worried about "being spied on" so self deluded to think that their government or anyone that doesn't know them directly could give a flying fuck what they do? I certainly am not. My government couldn't care less what I'm doing unless I am doing one of the following:
1) Breaking laws 2) Not paying taxes
Monitor me all you want, if I get caught doing something I shouldn't have been doing in the first place then I have no one but myself to blame.
Its the same old story, every generation since time began has felt oppressed by their government and every previous generation tells them how it was better in the old days, just like when older people say "kids respected their elders in my day" its all bullshit... it was exactly the same, just with worse technology.
Please get it through your heads, no one cares what you do unless you are doing something wrong. If cameras and datamining help deter, prevent or catch people breaking laws then they are doing their job and those who stay within the law have nothing to fear. The old "slippery slope" argument is beyond stupid, the government can't arrest you for staying within the law and if they did, YOU HAVE THE VIDEO EVIDENCE TO PROVE YOURSELF INNOCENT since ofc they have everything on CCTV and backed up on fortified HDDs......
And when the people in charge decide to abuse the power an authority you let them have without protest, what then? People should have a right to privacy.
You're in public... Some dolt on the street can follow you and record your every move if they want. And they don't need this system to do it. I think this is paranoia at its finest.
Not really. It would be illegal, atleast here in Norway.
You're in public... Some dolt on the street can follow you and shoot you in your every move, if they want.
Also illegal.
Just because it can be done, doesn't mean we should condone it.
Personally I really don't care about the cameras. For now they have no impact on my life or freedom or whatever, and I do not mind.
But you shouldn't fool yourselves by accepting such things without even considering your own freedom. At one point it will start to infringe upoon it, if no one says stop. (this is why we have laws etc, so that such things can't get out of hand -- until it does )
On August 11 2012 09:02 Coagulation wrote: well I cant say im suprised at all.. public surveillance is clearly an inevitable integration of technology in society. I might get a little worried when they start nuking people from orbit with laser satelites but untill then they can watch me all day i dont care.
Roflmfao.
My sentiments exactly!
Not really anything we didnt know, just confirmation
On August 11 2012 11:09 Little Rage Box wrote: I find it almost laughable that people are worried and Lockheed Martin and Northrup Gruman. Did any of you stop to think that they could be using this information in a effort to stop industrial spying?
I mean its not like there are plenty of nations out there looking to gain an upper hand against US military aircraft superiority. Same goes for the chemical companies. Protection of the public is the domain of the government, if they want to improve way to help keep the public/ public spaces safe by all means go ahead.
God forbid they do something right with the system then whatever will we have to complain about...
Really? By all means? What if they made it so no one could walk outside without an armed cop holding their hand? Careful when you say "by all means" dude. . .
yesterday people who would have said that government agencies are secretly gathering, analyzing, centralizing and selling data, would have been called conspiracy theorists. So that's at least something. Not to say that conspiracy theories aren't usually total bullshit... But it's also wrong to condemn everything as stupid just because there is no definite proof(you shouldn't take it as a truth without proof either...)
On August 11 2012 11:09 Little Rage Box wrote: I find it almost laughable that people are worried and Lockheed Martin and Northrup Gruman. Did any of you stop to think that they could be using this information in a effort to stop industrial spying?
I mean its not like there are plenty of nations out there looking to gain an upper hand against US military aircraft superiority. Same goes for the chemical companies. Protection of the public is the domain of the government, if they want to improve way to help keep the public/ public spaces safe by all means go ahead.
God forbid they do something right with the system then whatever will we have to complain about...
Really? By all means? What if they made it so no one could walk outside without an armed cop holding their hand? Careful when you say "by all means" dude. . .
Or, you know, he didn't mean it literally...because "by all means" is almost never meant literal.
On August 11 2012 11:07 Slaughter wrote: I have to disagree with the people saying that the US would "get blown off the face of the earth" if they invaded Canada. No country would throw around a Nuke for the sake of another country. Won't happen because then they put themselves in the line of the US nuclear arsenal which why would they want that? The US WOULD nuke anyone asap who was nuking them so no I don't think Russia would risk that.
No one is going to use nukes unless they are crazy or are retaliating against said crazy.
So basically nukes are there only to prevent nuking. What a great device nukes are!
Well, thanks to the Nuke we haven't had any large scale wars since 1945.
In that case we should sell nukes to any hostile country Like Iran, North Korea etc. because, there wouldnt be any more war ! The reason this aint happening is because the US wants war with Iran to get its oil and the Iran wants peace so it is developping and building Nuclear warheads.
For peaces sake !!! lol
How does one extract oil from a nuked country safely?
Juding from the comments from the Americans in this thread, you deserve everything that is coming for you. Enjoy the inevitable police state that will make sure that you can't even write freely on this forum anymore.
On August 11 2012 19:05 K_Dilkington wrote: Juding from the comments from the Americans in this thread, you deserve everything that is coming for you. Enjoy the inevitable police state that will make sure that you can't even write freely on this forum anymore.
Yeah, im surprised, too, at how many people don't see this as bad. I thought TL had a good ratio of people who would understand the consequences this first steps imply.
On August 11 2012 09:02 Coagulation wrote: well I cant say im suprised at all.. public surveillance is clearly an inevitable integration of technology in society. I might get a little worried when they start nuking people from orbit with laser satelites but untill then they can watch me all day i dont care.
Roflmfao.
My sentiments exactly!
Not really anything we didnt know, just confirmation
And what happens when they can do that? What prevents them from just frying you can saying that it was a "malfunction", if it even reaches the media?
On August 11 2012 19:05 K_Dilkington wrote: Juding from the comments from the Americans in this thread, you deserve everything that is coming for you. Enjoy the inevitable police state that will make sure that you can't even write freely on this forum anymore.
Tho I don't like those "nation" things. A lot of the "pro-surveillance" are US citiziens. When I saw the militarized police my jaw fell on the table. This certaintly suprised me more than the eSurveillance going on.
Guess it is time to get the proxies up and hide behind some curtains while browsing the web. Yet I always wasn't like "hey lets encrypt everydata I send and get" but seems like it is time to get used to it.
On August 11 2012 18:24 darkscream wrote: There should be riots over this.
Instead, everyone says, "Oh yeah, I knew that. But I'm not important enough for them to care."
as if robotic searches care how many hits you have on their hot-word database.
I totally agree with you, but you see the problem is that no one can riot alone.... The world's authorities are being control freaks right now but nobody cares as if it wasn't theyr responsability to raise against that. We have facts on the existence of the Bilderberg's meeting, the bohemian grove, that 650.000 documents have been classified last year in USA,... Asking anything related to this topic makes you a conspiracy theroist,... But we arent gonna do anything right ? Our kids have even less chances to riot against that, let's not screw their future, shall we. The gouvernment that was supposed to garantee our liberties is taking them away and people just don't care...
I can watch any fantasy or sci-fi movies, in the end, the reality is way more mind boggling
On August 11 2012 19:05 K_Dilkington wrote: Juding from the comments from the Americans in this thread, you deserve everything that is coming for you. Enjoy the inevitable police state that will make sure that you can't even write freely on this forum anymore.
Yeah, im surprised, too, at how many people don't see this as bad. I thought TL had a good ratio of people who would understand the consequences this first steps imply.
Yes, the average american has slipped so far from an resemblance of class and dignity that when treated like cattle, they moo and move away.
I love my country, very much, but we have truly got ourselves into a harbinger.
Also, I imagine most of us that care have already looked over this. This isn't new, I've already lost my ability to present a narrative on the amount of strange things I've learned reading over these.
If you think this is good, read the CIA: Red Cell document they have up. It details over the year 2008, how the CIA intended to manipulate European populations (combat ally nations) to not 'support' the war in Afghanistan, but simply to cause them to just not act up and interfere. It is really good fiction writing - except that it's real and it worked.
This is really sad. We reached a point where $$ is more important than human dignity and respect of the persona. I really can't believe you don't care about this. Basically the corporations are inside your life, they know almost everything they need to know about you, even without your consensus. Facial recognition really scares me. And there can be further steps... Do you really think this is really needed in order to fight "terrorism"?
When will you guys get that protecting society against terrorism and other really bad things while not doing any surveillance or other kinds of intelligence gathering is close to impossible.
Maybe these things are designed to protect against stuff that is very real... Maybe your fear for mass surveillance of every citizen is unwarranted?
It is always the same arguments: small small steps are being taken towards a system where everyone is being watched. Implicitly you suggest that there is a hidden agenda with the ultimate purpose of total surveillance.
Excerpt from the TV show Boston Legal around 2006. In the extract, the lawyer's assistant has been charged with tax avoidance because she refuses to fund the US government, and some their policies, on ideological grounds. This is his defence of her.
The passive reaction of some people in this thread is saddening. It's one thing to believe you're being watched and not feel bothered. To be shown, explicitly, that your freedom is being fundamentally undermined, without any consent whatsoever, and to still retain that passive acceptance? What's wrong with you?
On August 11 2012 19:46 one-one-one wrote: The conspiracy theories are always the same.
When will you guys get that protecting society against terrorism and other really bad things while not doing any surveillance or other kinds of intelligence gathering is close to impossible.
Maybe these things are designed to protect against stuff that is very real... Maybe your fear for mass surveillance of every citizen is unwarranted?
It is always the same arguments: small small steps are being taken towards a system where everyone is being watched. Implicitly you suggest that there is a hidden agenda with the ultimate purpose of total surveillance.
And with your last paragraph you hit the nail in the head. THAT is exactly what is planned as you can read in the information stated in the OP.
This system and all information gathering in that fashion doesn't give you any more insight into terrorist activity. There are still ways to cloak where you are what you are talking. Normal encryption as used 2000 BC is still good enough to communicate and make 3rd parties not understand a thing.
Those systems doesn't get you anywhere if you want to fight terrorism. It is fighting fire with fire. For me all this looks way more like france in the end of 18th century no conspiracy, real history. + Show Spoiler +
On August 11 2012 19:46 one-one-one wrote: The conspiracy theories are always the same.
When will you guys get that protecting society against terrorism and other really bad things while not doing any surveillance or other kinds of intelligence gathering is close to impossible.
Maybe these things are designed to protect against stuff that is very real... Maybe your fear for mass surveillance of every citizen is unwarranted?
It is always the same arguments: small small steps are being taken towards a system where everyone is being watched. Implicitly you suggest that there is a hidden agenda with the ultimate purpose of total surveillance.
Do you think it is fair for governments to create extensive, intricate databases of an unimaginable size and then pick and choose who to share that information with, all with the funding of your dollars and no consent given.
I have no problem if this was the CIA/NSA performing the functions that we pay them to do. This is miles beyond that.
Imagine you develop a program, that you store somewhere online assuming it is safe.
Imagine you are known for being amazing and a big corporation has you pegged.
Imagine that without you ever knowing, all the code is copied, and you never hear a god damn thing.
Imagine your life work could be taken from you, in a hundred thousand ways and you never knew it, except when you try to publish, copyright, patent, and you can't.
Fuck terrorists, fuck them all, unfortunately nothing can ever stop them. That is why fake-terrorism is the best way to control a population, and lucky for us, we are the most violent culture in the history of the world, so we are now breeding a spree shooter every couple weeks, and even though copying all internet traffic doesn't help track terrorists it sure does seem to help big corporations who used to have to do actual market research, who now if they are in the 'club' can hire 'global intelligence' agency's for all information they ever need.
That is the problem - PS - I am much more unsafe as an American then before 9/11.
as long as they can acces your informations and you can't theirs, that is seriously wrong. Whoevers says "Oh idc about that". You should, this can only lead to some sort of tyranny, even if only a tyranny of the biggest corporations killing the small up&coming ones.
Excerpt from the TV show Boston Legal around 2006. In the extract, the lawyer's assistant has been charged with tax avoidance because she refuses to fund the US government, and some their policies, on ideological grounds. This is his defence of her.
The passive reaction of some people in this thread is saddening. It's one thing to believe you're being watched and not feel bothered. To be shown, explicitly, that your freedom is being fundamentally undermined, without any consent whatsoever, and to still retain that passive acceptance? What's wrong with you?
It is fine to believe you're being watched and not feel bothered.
Not fine to have passive acceptance when exactly that is proven.
Oke? No real freedoms are being undermined here.
If anything, these computerized systems are an improvement over the past. The more advanced these system become, the less need of a human operator to actively look through the footage.
Within a few years, you could walk through a busy shopping street with tons of cameras, and there would be fewer eyes on you than today.
We can't expect police enforcement to remain stagnant in such a rapidly changing world with new technologies being created every day. To keep screaming privacy and demanding all camera's to be torn down is little different from the people that were afraid of the first cars.
If you are doing nothing wrong then you got nothing to hide. Only evil people would be afraid of surveillance. If you are good you got nothing to hide.
On August 11 2012 20:22 M4nkind wrote: If you are doing nothing wrong then you got nothing to hide. Only evil people would be afraid of surveillance. If you are good you got nothing to hide.
someone will make an intelligent response to this but let me just be the first to say you're really stupid
If you put a weapon in the hands of someone, no matter how well-intentioned and responsible (not sure if that can be applied to the US government in the first place) they may seem, you run the risk of them turning around and using it on you. And make no mistake, this is a very powerful weapon. Sooner or later, they will come up with whatever justifications they need to use the data to do far more than just 'catch the bad guys'. Suppressing political and social movements, oppressing dissidents and political rivals, not to mention the involvement of private corporations in all of this. Do you really think they won't abuse private and sensitive information for their own gain? The very fact that this was all done in total secrecy and without public knowledge/approval, should tell you something.
I hate to use this overused quote, but "Power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely".
On August 11 2012 20:22 M4nkind wrote: If you are doing nothing wrong then you got nothing to hide. Only evil people would be afraid of surveillance. If you are good you got nothing to hide.
On August 11 2012 20:22 M4nkind wrote: If you are doing nothing wrong then you got nothing to hide. Only evil people would be afraid of surveillance. If you are good you got nothing to hide.
Tell that to anyone living in a dictatorship and/or corrupt goverment. Your faulty assumption is that the good ones are always on one of these sides.
Maybe these methods are justified taken everything into account, but the "if you have nothing to hide" argument are one of the poorest there are to justify it. Think a little longer than that please.
On August 11 2012 20:22 M4nkind wrote: If you are doing nothing wrong then you got nothing to hide. Only evil people would be afraid of surveillance. If you are good you got nothing to hide.
This is why we hear from this stuff from wiki leaks I guess
Blindly obeying the law, doesn't make you good, just brainless... Would you be proud if u had killed iraqi families 10 years ago ?? Murder is sometime legal, that doesn't make it moral
I'm actually all for transparency, but don't you think it doesn't have any sense that a government that has sooo many secrets asks you to don't have any ?? I'm ok to be wiretapped if I can wiretap the president, army generals, judges, and such... But sadly, I'll go to jail if I try that... They're hiding stuff. Are they bad evil people like you suggested ?? Or do they want privacy like anyone else, and got it because they deserved it because they are far superior human being as you and me ?
Or are they just profiting from an unfair system ?
Please use more than half your brain before posting
On August 11 2012 19:05 K_Dilkington wrote: Juding from the comments from the Americans in this thread, you deserve everything that is coming for you. Enjoy the inevitable police state that will make sure that you can't even write freely on this forum anymore.
Yeah, im surprised, too, at how many people don't see this as bad. I thought TL had a good ratio of people who would understand the consequences this first steps imply.
I think there are. I think some people might even understand the consequences better than you do.
1984 police state? What's the point? From the government's perspective, it's a horrible decision. As soon as people feel threatened, they will react to the perceived threat. They'll start petitions, demonstrations, protests. People are complaining already, with this leak. If the government starts sending agents around just because of a post you made on a forum, you can bet people will feel scared and start objecting. Why would the government spend tons of money just to stir up unrest? They don't get anything out of terrorizing anarchist teenagers.
Every time they follow up a lead, they're encouraging people to hide their tracks better. If everyone knows that text messages (for example) are being monitored, then the people who are actually planning attacks will stop using text messages. The government went to all the trouble of monitoring these sources, so they're not going to shoot themselves in the foot by showing up at your house just because you texted "bomb" to someone. That's pretty much announcing "hey terrorists, we're watching all the texts being sent, so if you're planning an attack, use something else."
And with all the information going around, it should hardly be a surprise that someone decided to condense it all into a database. It's pretty much a natural consequence of our level of technology. You can already dig up an absurd amount of personal information as a private citizen if you know where to look, so it should hardly come as a surprise that the government can do it even better. It's not just the government, either - they just have the most resources so they're usually the first adopters. Once we have effective facial recognition and enough processing power, you can bet that as soon as you step in a Wal-mart the cameras will have recognized you and your purchasing behaviour is being pulled up in a database somewhere. They'll track your movements through the store, which displays you pause it, what you end up buying... all for market research, of course. If you place something back on the wrong shelf, they're not going to call you out on it - they don't want to freak you out. But they know you did it.
Don't like the idea? It comes with the technology, so it's something you'll have to live with. We're already getting used to losing our privacy. Eventually, this sort of thing will seem as normal as seeing your name and address in the phone book.
On August 11 2012 19:46 one-one-one wrote: The conspiracy theories are always the same.
When will you guys get that protecting society against terrorism and other really bad things while not doing any surveillance or other kinds of intelligence gathering is close to impossible.
Maybe these things are designed to protect against stuff that is very real... Maybe your fear for mass surveillance of every citizen is unwarranted?
It is always the same arguments: small small steps are being taken towards a system where everyone is being watched. Implicitly you suggest that there is a hidden agenda with the ultimate purpose of total surveillance.
Do you think it is fair for governments to create extensive, intricate databases of an unimaginable size and then pick and choose who to share that information with, all with the funding of your dollars and no consent given.
I have no problem if this was the CIA/NSA performing the functions that we pay them to do. This is miles beyond that.
Imagine you develop a program, that you store somewhere online assuming it is safe.
Imagine you are known for being amazing and a big corporation has you pegged.
Imagine that without you ever knowing, all the code is copied, and you never hear a god damn thing.
Imagine your life work could be taken from you, in a hundred thousand ways and you never knew it, except when you try to publish, copyright, patent, and you can't.
Fuck terrorists, fuck them all, unfortunately nothing can ever stop them. That is why fake-terrorism is the best way to control a population, and lucky for us, we are the most violent culture in the history of the world, so we are now breeding a spree shooter every couple weeks, and even though copying all internet traffic doesn't help track terrorists it sure does seem to help big corporations who used to have to do actual market research, who now if they are in the 'club' can hire 'global intelligence' agency's for all information they ever need.
That is the problem - PS - I am much more unsafe as an American then before 9/11.
I would say that there are way more spree shootings in many other countries. Sure, USA is a violent place , but there are many countries that are worse by far.
Is it a problem that you can't blindly trust Microsoft , Google and the likes with your data? Those companies have agreements with many governments about handing over user data. So don't put your life work there then. Isn't it ironic that the same government you accuse of having hidden agendas provide very secure open protocols for encrypting and transferring your data ?
There is no secret agenda! Get that straight.
Edit: Everyone read Starfries post just above this one. Then read it again. Best post in this thread by far.
On August 11 2012 09:06 Liquid`Drone wrote: If true, how is this not big news? Global surveillance with facial recognition? You're fine with someone knowing where you are and what you're doing at every moment? There's absolutely no way any possible terrorist or other threat justifies this gross invasion of privacy, and that's that.
I don't have time to really investigate this now but based on OP, this is terrible, and the most important leak from wikileaks so far.
Especially because the invade privacy like this, but never catches the real enemies doing so, lol. Like London, most survailanced city in the world, and nothing has changed, except their pockets have gotten lighter
its horrible that stuff like that is actually legal. just another big step towards a grim future.
Is it a problem that you can't blindly trust Microsoft , Google and the likes with your data? Those companies have agreements with many governments about handing over user data. So don't put your life work there then.
its a VERY different thing when i give them my data compared to an all observing eye i cant avoid.
On August 11 2012 20:22 M4nkind wrote: If you are doing nothing wrong then you got nothing to hide. Only evil people would be afraid of surveillance. If you are good you got nothing to hide.
What happens when the one that survielle you are evil and the evil ones who aren't in power are intelligent enough to bypass surveillence? rofl.
On August 11 2012 20:22 M4nkind wrote: If you are doing nothing wrong then you got nothing to hide. Only evil people would be afraid of surveillance. If you are good you got nothing to hide.
How many years have you gone to school? Can you honestly tell me that not a single time have you faked being ill and went somewhere else with your friends? Ooops they caught that on camera, sucks to be you. Have you ever went to a swimming pool/golf course at night and jumped over the fence? Thats on camera! Have you ever disobeyed a stop sign on a very open intersection because you saw that there is noone coming? Thats on camera (theyve probably got your license plate or can see your face through the windshield anyway). Have you ever let your dog shit on a street and had no bag to clean it up so you ignored it and went on? Thats on camera too.
I don't know why you people are making a big deal out of this. None of you have the temerity to do anything about it: to march to the White House, to show the government you aren't sheep. The government knows what type of society they have cultivated-- one that would rather express their discontent with injustices through social outlets rather than making a stand.
The US government knows there is no risk of another French Revolution, because people are too content. They have their Ipods, cheeseburgers, and their meaningless education (anyone and everyone can get a student loan). They watch their tv shows. They fuck and sleep. They bitch every now and then and the government laughs at them and throws them a bone.
Please get it through your heads, no one cares what you do unless you are doing something wrong. If cameras and datamining help deter, prevent or catch people breaking laws then they are doing their job and those who stay within the law have nothing to fear. The old "slippery slope" argument is beyond stupid, the government can't arrest you for staying within the law and if they did, YOU HAVE THE VIDEO EVIDENCE TO PROVE YOURSELF INNOCENT since ofc they have everything on CCTV and backed up on fortified HDDs......
The problem comes when they start changing laws (which they are, SOPA, PIPA, ACTA etc...) to give them more reasons to prosecute / imprison. But then again if this is done in a proper and regulated manner where the risk of abuse of the technology is reduced to non-existent it would only benefit our security. The scary thing is that this is done behind closed doors and they are very much wanting it to be completely unknown to anyone not working with it. That is what is bad here, not what it is but how it is done.
On August 11 2012 19:46 one-one-one wrote: The conspiracy theories are always the same.
When will you guys get that protecting society against terrorism and other really bad things while not doing any surveillance or other kinds of intelligence gathering is close to impossible.
Maybe these things are designed to protect against stuff that is very real... Maybe your fear for mass surveillance of every citizen is unwarranted?
It is always the same arguments: small small steps are being taken towards a system where everyone is being watched. Implicitly you suggest that there is a hidden agenda with the ultimate purpose of total surveillance.
Nevermind, online chat seems to be pointless and people keep the biases without reason.
On August 11 2012 20:22 M4nkind wrote: If you are doing nothing wrong then you got nothing to hide. Only evil people would be afraid of surveillance. If you are good you got nothing to hide.
How many years have you gone to school? Can you honestly tell me that not a single time have you faked being ill and went somewhere else with your friends? Ooops they caught that on camera, sucks to be you. Have you ever went to a swimming pool/golf course at night and jumped over the fence? Thats on camera! Have you ever disobeyed a stop sign on a very open intersection because you saw that there is noone coming? Thats on camera (theyve probably got your license plate or can see your face through the windshield anyway). Have you ever let your dog shit on a street and had no bag to clean it up so you ignored it and went on? Thats on camera too.
Youve got nothing to hide? Youre so dead wrong.
How many times have you driven by a cop going 1-2 miles over the limit (and probably more) and they don't pull you over ?
It is the same principle... you are being seen doing something illegal... they just don't care.. they have more important things to worry about..
I'm sure everyone will say oh it only takes one time, but personally I have a bit more positive of an outlook I guess... if you constantly concern yourself with what COULD go wrong or be abused then you just live in constant fear and that is not how I want to live
Those emails posted earlier about trapwire through stratfor, if accurate, show the system is in use, but I see no abuse of the system in those mails and as I have said before.. I think our job as the public is to police the abuses of the government and not limit their access to information
It is a bit troubling that this was setup in complete secrecy, but I guess my complacency stems from the fact that I'm not surprised at all that the cameras are recording me and it is being compiled... and I still maintain that stratfor simply does contracting for those companies and I've seen nothing that proves that stratfor is using trapwire for these private corporations... even the Coca Cola email about PETA refers to FBI profiles and not trapwire to relay information
How is this "Holy shit big news"??? If you want to live under a rock and complete silence, stay out of public. This is nothing new or surprising. /yawn
Looking at the nation tags of the posters in this thread, I am utterly flabbergasted that US citizens especially seem completely oblivious to the implications of this, some even going as far as to say that they don't care if they're watched. The uses of such a database are vast. Blackmail is only the very tip of the iceberg. It's not as simple as "if I do as everyone else does, I'm safe and this database cannot hurt me". I cannot comprehend the disconnect between knowing that US legislators are corporate yes-men, and not caring that such a project is being undertaken.
Picking my metaphorical jaw off the floor, I guess McDonalds and American Idol are the 21st century equivalent of bread and circuses. Enjoy your incipent idiocracy, just don't ask how things got to that state. <facepalm>
On August 11 2012 22:06 jeremycafe wrote: How is this "Holy shit big news"??? If you want to live under a rock and complete silence, stay out of public. This is nothing new or surprising. /yawn
watch V for Vendetta if you dont want to read 1984
On August 11 2012 22:42 hummingbird23 wrote: Looking at the nation tags of the posters in this thread, I am utterly flabbergasted that US citizens especially seem completely oblivious to the implications of this, some even going as far as to say that they don't care if they're watched. The uses of such a database are vast. Blackmail is only the very tip of the iceberg. It's not as simple as "if I do as everyone else does, I'm safe and this database cannot hurt me". I cannot comprehend the disconnect between knowing that US legislators are corporate yes-men, and not caring that such a project is being undertaken.
Picking my metaphorical jaw off the floor, I guess McDonalds and American Idol are the 21st century equivalent of bread and circuses. Enjoy your incipent idiocracy, just don't ask how things got to that state. <facepalm>
I'd hardly say most people are oblivious to the implications... I doubt anyone here would disagree that this system could be abused and end badly
I find it just as sad that so many people are fear mongering acting as if the only way a system like this ends is in a police state in which we are all utterly controlled
Oh well .. it is pointless arguing it anymore.. everyone has their own idea of this system and that won't change... if you really dislike it then get out there and do something instead of sitting back complaining and insulting those who don't share your viewpoint
Personally, I will wait and see how this develops because I see no problem with this system being used properly
On August 11 2012 22:06 jeremycafe wrote: How is this "Holy shit big news"??? If you want to live under a rock and complete silence, stay out of public. This is nothing new or surprising. /yawn
watch V for Vendetta if you dont want to read 1984
No thanks, history lessons were boring enough in high school. I don't care about stuff that happened in 1984.
On August 11 2012 22:06 jeremycafe wrote: How is this "Holy shit big news"??? If you want to live under a rock and complete silence, stay out of public. This is nothing new or surprising. /yawn
watch V for Vendetta if you dont want to read 1984
No thanks, history lessons were boring enough in high school. I don't care about stuff that happened in 1984.
Well, I guess you pretty much sum up the stereotype of every lazy ignorant idiot who voices their opinion but does zero (note by zero, I mean fuck all) of research into any possibilities that might come from this nor do you care that situations similar have happened in fascist governments.
It's one thing to disagree (and some have pointed out that this is a great tool to stop crime etc and have great scientific application) but to disagree because you're ignorant (and frankly from your comment, an idiot) to your surroundings should just not happen.
when is the world going to get round to shooting the wikileaks people? they are like the tabloid version of the cyber world. scum who do shit thats completely pointless and mess with things that should not be messed with.
On August 11 2012 22:06 jeremycafe wrote: How is this "Holy shit big news"??? If you want to live under a rock and complete silence, stay out of public. This is nothing new or surprising. /yawn
watch V for Vendetta if you dont want to read 1984
No thanks, history lessons were boring enough in high school. I don't care about stuff that happened in 1984.
Well, I guess you pretty much sum up the stereotype of every lazy ignorant idiot who voices their opinion but does zero (note by zero, I mean fuck all) of research into any possibilities that might come from this nor do you care that situations similar have happened in fascist governments.
It's one thing to disagree (and some have pointed out that this is a great tool to stop crime etc and have great scientific application) but to disagree because you're ignorant (and frankly from your comment, an idiot) to your surroundings should just not happen.
On August 11 2012 23:34 CptCutter wrote: when is the world going to get round to shooting the wikileaks people? they are like the tabloid version of the cyber world. scum who do shit thats completely pointless and mess with things that should not be messed with.
Yeah, and let's shoot some vegetarians while we at it!
Surveillance will affect..... -.000000000000000009% of you.
what do you think is gonna happen? the police are gonna knock down your door cuz you're gay or lesbian or because you got some fucking old books and paintings hidden in a secret room. or that your smoking mary jane and have a crush on mary sue and the goverment knows. or that your looking at free porn and jerking off.
only people that should be scared are those actually doing evil horrible shit.fuck up
On August 11 2012 22:06 jeremycafe wrote: How is this "Holy shit big news"??? If you want to live under a rock and complete silence, stay out of public. This is nothing new or surprising. /yawn
watch V for Vendetta if you dont want to read 1984
No thanks, history lessons were boring enough in high school. I don't care about stuff that happened in 1984.
This has to be sarcasm right? Can you realy be this ignorant and close-minded?
On August 11 2012 22:06 jeremycafe wrote: How is this "Holy shit big news"??? If you want to live under a rock and complete silence, stay out of public. This is nothing new or surprising. /yawn
watch V for Vendetta if you dont want to read 1984
No thanks, history lessons were boring enough in high school. I don't care about stuff that happened in 1984.
Well, I guess you pretty much sum up the stereotype of every lazy ignorant idiot who voices their opinion but does zero (note by zero, I mean fuck all) of research into any possibilities that might come from this nor do you care that situations similar have happened in fascist governments.
It's one thing to disagree (and some have pointed out that this is a great tool to stop crime etc and have great scientific application) but to disagree because you're ignorant (and frankly from your comment, an idiot) to your surroundings should just not happen.
I lol'ed. Dude, I've read 1984 and V for Vendetta (the movie was just silly). As great as literature is, it's not sufficient for gaining even a superficial understanding of why things are the way they are.
On August 11 2012 22:06 jeremycafe wrote: How is this "Holy shit big news"??? If you want to live under a rock and complete silence, stay out of public. This is nothing new or surprising. /yawn
watch V for Vendetta if you dont want to read 1984
No thanks, history lessons were boring enough in high school. I don't care about stuff that happened in 1984.
Well, I guess you pretty much sum up the stereotype of every lazy ignorant idiot who voices their opinion but does zero (note by zero, I mean fuck all) of research into any possibilities that might come from this nor do you care that situations similar have happened in fascist governments.
It's one thing to disagree (and some have pointed out that this is a great tool to stop crime etc and have great scientific application) but to disagree because you're ignorant (and frankly from your comment, an idiot) to your surroundings should just not happen.
I lol'ed. Dude, I've read 1984 and V for Vendetta (the movie was just silly). As great as literature is, it's not sufficient for gaining even a superficial understanding of why things are the way they are.
"No thanks, history lessons were boring enough in high school. I don't care about stuff that happened in 1984."
You made the clear assertion you never watched it, and then you went on to state how you just simply don't care. This is the last post I'll respond to you with, frankly it's depressing.
I never once stated either V or 1984 are sufficient for gaining anything, I simply stated that disagreeing because you prefer to be ignorant because things "bore you" is not "sufficient" so how about you sit this one out champ.
also, "I lol'ed. ", -.- you can do better than that.
On August 11 2012 22:06 jeremycafe wrote: How is this "Holy shit big news"??? If you want to live under a rock and complete silence, stay out of public. This is nothing new or surprising. /yawn
watch V for Vendetta if you dont want to read 1984
No thanks, history lessons were boring enough in high school. I don't care about stuff that happened in 1984.
Well, I guess you pretty much sum up the stereotype of every lazy ignorant idiot who voices their opinion but does zero (note by zero, I mean fuck all) of research into any possibilities that might come from this nor do you care that situations similar have happened in fascist governments.
It's one thing to disagree (and some have pointed out that this is a great tool to stop crime etc and have great scientific application) but to disagree because you're ignorant (and frankly from your comment, an idiot) to your surroundings should just not happen.
I lol'ed. Dude, I've read 1984 and V for Vendetta (the movie was just silly). As great as literature is, it's not sufficient for gaining even a superficial understanding of why things are the way they are.
"No thanks, history lessons were boring enough in high school. I don't care about stuff that happened in 1984."
You made the clear assertion you never watched it, and then you went on to state how you just simply don't care. This is the last post I'll respond to you with, frankly it's depressing.
I never once stated either V or 1984 are sufficient for gaining anything, I simply stated that disagreeing because you prefer to be ignorant because things "bore you" is not "sufficient" so how about you sit this one out champ.
I don't think you were paying attention in school when they taught you what the term tongue-in-cheek means.
On August 11 2012 22:42 hummingbird23 wrote: Looking at the nation tags of the posters in this thread, I am utterly flabbergasted that US citizens especially seem completely oblivious to the implications of this, some even going as far as to say that they don't care if they're watched. The uses of such a database are vast. Blackmail is only the very tip of the iceberg. It's not as simple as "if I do as everyone else does, I'm safe and this database cannot hurt me". I cannot comprehend the disconnect between knowing that US legislators are corporate yes-men, and not caring that such a project is being undertaken.
Picking my metaphorical jaw off the floor, I guess McDonalds and American Idol are the 21st century equivalent of bread and circuses. Enjoy your incipent idiocracy, just don't ask how things got to that state. <facepalm>
I'd hardly say most people are oblivious to the implications... I doubt anyone here would disagree that this system could be abused and end badly
I find it just as sad that so many people are fear mongering acting as if the only way a system like this ends is in a police state in which we are all utterly controlled
Oh well .. it is pointless arguing it anymore.. everyone has their own idea of this system and that won't change... if you really dislike it then get out there and do something instead of sitting back complaining and insulting those who don't share your viewpoint
Personally, I will wait and see how this develops because I see no problem with this system being used properly
I direct you to the latest exhibit below. The whole thread is filled with this crap. Get it?
On August 11 2012 23:42 PassionsC wrote: holy shit so many paranoid people in here.......
Surveillance will affect..... -.000000000000000009% of you.
what do you think is gonna happen? the police are gonna knock down your door cuz you're gay or lesbian or because you got some fucking old books and paintings hidden in a secret room. or that your smoking mary jane and have a crush on mary sue and the goverment knows. or that your looking at free porn and jerking off.
only people that should be scared are those actually doing evil horrible shit.fuck up
On August 11 2012 22:06 jeremycafe wrote: How is this "Holy shit big news"??? If you want to live under a rock and complete silence, stay out of public. This is nothing new or surprising. /yawn
watch V for Vendetta if you dont want to read 1984
No thanks, history lessons were boring enough in high school. I don't care about stuff that happened in 1984.
Well, I guess you pretty much sum up the stereotype of every lazy ignorant idiot who voices their opinion but does zero (note by zero, I mean fuck all) of research into any possibilities that might come from this nor do you care that situations similar have happened in fascist governments.
It's one thing to disagree (and some have pointed out that this is a great tool to stop crime etc and have great scientific application) but to disagree because you're ignorant (and frankly from your comment, an idiot) to your surroundings should just not happen.
I lol'ed. Dude, I've read 1984 and V for Vendetta (the movie was just silly). As great as literature is, it's not sufficient for gaining even a superficial understanding of why things are the way they are.
"No thanks, history lessons were boring enough in high school. I don't care about stuff that happened in 1984."
You made the clear assertion you never watched it, and then you went on to state how you just simply don't care. This is the last post I'll respond to you with, frankly it's depressing.
I never once stated either V or 1984 are sufficient for gaining anything, I simply stated that disagreeing because you prefer to be ignorant because things "bore you" is not "sufficient" so how about you sit this one out champ.
also, "I lol'ed. ", -.- you can do better than that.
Dude, this isn't the first time I've noticed you personally go into a bitter or ad hominem strewn tirade after a person posted something you either didn't understand at all or didn't realize was simply a joke / sarcasm.
I suggest you read things more carefully at first and improve your posting.
When people talk about history lessons being boring, you know you probably don't have much knowledge to gain out of them. Even with boring teachers, there's nothing boring about our specie's past.
On August 11 2012 22:06 jeremycafe wrote: How is this "Holy shit big news"??? If you want to live under a rock and complete silence, stay out of public. This is nothing new or surprising. /yawn
watch V for Vendetta if you dont want to read 1984
No thanks, history lessons were boring enough in high school. I don't care about stuff that happened in 1984.
Well, I guess you pretty much sum up the stereotype of every lazy ignorant idiot who voices their opinion but does zero (note by zero, I mean fuck all) of research into any possibilities that might come from this nor do you care that situations similar have happened in fascist governments.
It's one thing to disagree (and some have pointed out that this is a great tool to stop crime etc and have great scientific application) but to disagree because you're ignorant (and frankly from your comment, an idiot) to your surroundings should just not happen.
I lol'ed. Dude, I've read 1984 and V for Vendetta (the movie was just silly). As great as literature is, it's not sufficient for gaining even a superficial understanding of why things are the way they are.
"No thanks, history lessons were boring enough in high school. I don't care about stuff that happened in 1984."
You made the clear assertion you never watched it, and then you went on to state how you just simply don't care. This is the last post I'll respond to you with, frankly it's depressing.
I never once stated either V or 1984 are sufficient for gaining anything, I simply stated that disagreeing because you prefer to be ignorant because things "bore you" is not "sufficient" so how about you sit this one out champ.
also, "I lol'ed. ", -.- you can do better than that.
Dude, this isn't the first time I've noticed you personally go into a bitter or ad hominem strewn tirade after a person posted something you either didn't understand at all or didn't realize was simply a joke / sarcasm.
I suggest you read things more carefully first and improve your posting.
"attempt to negate the truth of a claim by pointing out a negative characteristic or belief of the person supporting it" Sorry what claim was he making? That history was boring? If you're going to assert I am something, please do it correctly.
I agree that disagreeing is totally fine, and I even presented that in my first comment (you can read if you'd like) when it's backed with something, but just saying the sky is falling doesn't make it so and if someone thinks to say stupid things its bound time we smack them down for it.
"stated that disagreeing because you prefer to be ignorant because things "bore you" is not "sufficient"" That was the underlying tone, I apologize if my frustration allowed it to get the better of me but frankly that is exactly how I feel, and when we discuss things it should simply not be allowed to voice an opinion without something to back it up, some type of knowledge... Evidence should be at the forefront of every argument, and if someone wishes to argue that because some people don't want to be on a global GPS tracker (obviously reaching, but that is the same thing) they should live under a rock, then that is just unacceptable for any discussion.
On August 12 2012 00:18 DannyJ wrote: I said "or" as in relation to other shitty posts you've made.
Why are you still going on about how history bores him? IT WAS A JOKE.
Nevermind, we've drawn this offtopic long enough and it isn't going anywhere. Obviously jokes come through differently when in text than in person, I obviously didn't quite get it was a joke nor from how he presented his entire response do I even think it was a joke.
I can understand why Nemesis would get angry at this guy who doesn't care about history and thinks that constitutes an argument. The reason why the US is getting so authoritarian in the first place is that people don't care enough about their rights to keep them.
Plenty of people in this thread think this is "old news" because we've had suspicions of such things happening. Now we have a reasonably reliable source giving us some info that we should look into because if it's true, the government is truly behaving in very reprehensible ways. Americans have already agreed to get their genitals fondled by strangers when they go to the airport, Americans are going to let their country spy on them and give away the data to private companies - so who's to say the inaction won't cause an actual slippery slope?
Americans have slowly been giving away their freedoms in the name of security, sometimes without noticing it. And many of us know what Ben Franklin had to say about that.
If these nsa cameras are installed only near high value targets, i wouldn't make such a great deal out of it. They have security cameras anyway. What the hell, half my town is covered by some (private) security camera here and there.
On August 12 2012 00:44 shabby wrote: To TOR and the underground tunnels we go!
Good luck with that
Fred Burton wrote:
I don't buy the 90%. Lean more towards 60-70%. I've seen outstanding HUMINT coverages which run 180 degrees from OS, combined with SIGINT.
The other aspect is the Dark Web data mining streams now combined w/surveillance logs AND technology like TrapWire. Neither of which very few people see.
The high public figures are disinformation to protect sources and methods (foreign liaison channels.)
The volumnes of granular data for example on Iran or Mexico today out-pace the OS.
On August 11 2012 23:42 PassionsC wrote: holy shit so many paranoid people in here.......
Surveillance will affect..... -.000000000000000009% of you.
what do you think is gonna happen? the police are gonna knock down your door cuz you're gay or lesbian or because you got some fucking old books and paintings hidden in a secret room. or that your smoking mary jane and have a crush on mary sue and the goverment knows. or that your looking at free porn and jerking off.
only people that should be scared are those actually doing evil horrible shit.fuck up
How does it not affect me? It's a gross invasion of privacy and what you think could happen will happen. Look at the fucking history in before WW2 in Italy and Germany. In name of [nationalism/antiterrorism] little by little people's rights were taken away until Jews, gays, and other "undesirables" started getting fucked.
You best stop it right there, questioning the government... You're bound to get flamed as a troofer or a conspiracy theorist ^^ because people in power have never done terrible things when harnessing it, you should know this!
Am I wrong in thinking that the governments of the world are filled with old men who can only find pleasure in doing ridiculous shit like playing war games and intelligence battles, etc? It's like they KNOW stuff like mega spy networks aren't necessary, and have no chance of being sanctioned by the greater population, but they just don't care because golf and skydiving and hookers on yachts would get too boring for them...
Only government or mainstream media response thus far: continuing the silent onslaught of DDos attacks attempting to censor the documents. That's all I could find anyway.
Anyone seen different? Maybe a European with good news services in their country? I want to read more on this from a respectable outlet.
On August 12 2012 08:43 Zahir wrote: Only government or mainstream media response thus far: continuing the silent onslaught of DDos attacks attempting to censor the documents. That's all I could find anyway.
Anyone seen different? Maybe a European with good news services in their country? I want to read more on this from a respectable outlet.
The problem is that most medias will probably want to read the documents and verify their authenticity/validity somehow. I'm pretty sure they generally don't bother... Reporting about this, if it happens not to be true, would be quite bad.
On August 11 2012 09:02 Coagulation wrote: well I cant say im suprised at all.. public surveillance is clearly an inevitable integration of technology in society. I might get a little worried when they start nuking people from orbit with laser satelites but untill then they can watch me all day i dont care.
My sentiments exactly. We all expected this to happen in todays world. I don't give a shit if they watch me or not, might even look up wierd shit for that off chance they go looking through my searches lol.
On August 11 2012 19:05 K_Dilkington wrote: Juding from the comments from the Americans in this thread, you deserve everything that is coming for you. Enjoy the inevitable police state that will make sure that you can't even write freely on this forum anymore.
Surveillance =/= supression....
The U.S. has always had a long and complicated relationship between surveillance and use of surveillance in the form of prosecution or persecution in the light of politicians and judges counterbalancing them.
Because Trapwire has been implemented and something completely unsurprising (and rumored to have been going on for decades) , which is datamining doesn't mean we are one day going to live in some tyrannical dicatorship where we can no longer write freely anymore. I mean really?
On August 12 2012 08:43 Zahir wrote: Only government or mainstream media response thus far: continuing the silent onslaught of DDos attacks attempting to censor the documents. That's all I could find anyway.
Anyone seen different? Maybe a European with good news services in their country? I want to read more on this from a respectable outlet.
The problem is that most medias will probably want to read the documents and verify their authenticity/validity somehow. I'm pretty sure they generally don't bother... Reporting about this, if it happens not to be true, would be quite bad.
yeah but... not even an acknowledgement or preliminary story? I looked online and there is not a single news outlet that prints a major paper or magazine that has touched this. its just all online and indie-level outlets. its spooky man. this has been out for more than a day now, what gives?
On August 11 2012 22:42 hummingbird23 wrote: Looking at the nation tags of the posters in this thread, I am utterly flabbergasted that US citizens especially seem completely oblivious to the implications of this, some even going as far as to say that they don't care if they're watched. The uses of such a database are vast. Blackmail is only the very tip of the iceberg. It's not as simple as "if I do as everyone else does, I'm safe and this database cannot hurt me". I cannot comprehend the disconnect between knowing that US legislators are corporate yes-men, and not caring that such a project is being undertaken.
Picking my metaphorical jaw off the floor, I guess McDonalds and American Idol are the 21st century equivalent of bread and circuses. Enjoy your incipent idiocracy, just don't ask how things got to that state. <facepalm>
I'd hardly say most people are oblivious to the implications... I doubt anyone here would disagree that this system could be abused and end badly
I find it just as sad that so many people are fear mongering acting as if the only way a system like this ends is in a police state in which we are all utterly controlled
Oh well .. it is pointless arguing it anymore.. everyone has their own idea of this system and that won't change... if you really dislike it then get out there and do something instead of sitting back complaining and insulting those who don't share your viewpoint
Personally, I will wait and see how this develops because I see no problem with this system being used properly
I direct you to the latest exhibit below. The whole thread is filled with this crap. Get it?
On August 11 2012 23:42 PassionsC wrote: holy shit so many paranoid people in here.......
Surveillance will affect..... -.000000000000000009% of you.
what do you think is gonna happen? the police are gonna knock down your door cuz you're gay or lesbian or because you got some fucking old books and paintings hidden in a secret room. or that your smoking mary jane and have a crush on mary sue and the goverment knows. or that your looking at free porn and jerking off.
only people that should be scared are those actually doing evil horrible shit.fuck up
Sure. Such a technology could be used for 'evil'. Your hat could use a couple more layers of tin foil, by the way. Also, to save you time in makin your would-be reply -- no need, I know, I get it, I am a mindless idiot fat American.
On August 12 2012 08:43 Zahir wrote: Only government or mainstream media response thus far: continuing the silent onslaught of DDos attacks attempting to censor the documents. That's all I could find anyway.
Anyone seen different? Maybe a European with good news services in their country? I want to read more on this from a respectable outlet.
The problem is that most medias will probably want to read the documents and verify their authenticity/validity somehow. I'm pretty sure they generally don't bother... Reporting about this, if it happens not to be true, would be quite bad.
yeah but... not even an acknowledgement or preliminary story? I looked online and there is not a single news outlet that prints a major paper or magazine that has touched this. its just all online and indie-level outlets. its spooky man. this has been out for more than a day now, what gives?
I think that when you're dealing with stories as sensitive as this, you really want to get it right before you alarm the population of the entire world that something really bad may be happening.
Even if the big media started releasing articles packed to the brim with words like "unverified", "preliminary", "maybe", etc., you just know that some people would go full out conspiracy theory on our asses.
Something doesn't need to be confirmed for people to just assume it's true anyway.
On August 12 2012 09:17 Slaughter wrote: Only thing I saw was something Cspan talking about how wiki leaks was collaborating with lulzsec for some hacking thing of Icelandic organizations.
The hell? Lulzsec only ever existed for one job and then it broke up (or rather was posed as).
The real problem with this if its true would be the secrecy. In a democracy big decisions about privacy and security should be made in public space, otherwise its not much of a democracy at all.
On August 11 2012 20:22 M4nkind wrote: If you are doing nothing wrong then you got nothing to hide. Only evil people would be afraid of surveillance. If you are good you got nothing to hide.
How many years have you gone to school? Can you honestly tell me that not a single time have you faked being ill and went somewhere else with your friends? Ooops they caught that on camera, sucks to be you. Have you ever went to a swimming pool/golf course at night and jumped over the fence? Thats on camera! Have you ever disobeyed a stop sign on a very open intersection because you saw that there is noone coming? Thats on camera (theyve probably got your license plate or can see your face through the windshield anyway). Have you ever let your dog shit on a street and had no bag to clean it up so you ignored it and went on? Thats on camera too.
Youve got nothing to hide? Youre so dead wrong.
You talk as if anyone would anytime be interested in your unimportant life? Same as me or others, no one cares about "nobodies". System lets you get the real criminals. Of course I don't want to make you feel uncool - you are bad ass doing crime 24/7 by driving over the speed limit and using alcohol in public places.
Well if the following joke would be true (but it will never be) we could be in trouble: "When Chuck Norris became head of CIA, on first place of most dangerous criminal list was boy from Thailand who illegally downloaded movie 'Dodgeball' "
What I find even more disturbing is that there are people here that think it is normal and acceptable that they are continuously being watched by parties for unwanted behaviour (I can't even say government, because a government has to take some form of accountability/responsibility) .
It operates outside of all boundries of the rule of law. Normally you would need to get permission to tap persons, and you would need a damn good reason (strong signs of criminal activity). But these shadow organizations are doing it without any permission, and more importantly without any control/supervision by the rule of law. What is also disturbing is that private organizations are involved, and citizens have no control over how these companies handle this data.
A government or corporation simply does not have the right, nor did anyone give them the right to invade the privacy of citizens to this extend. Did anybody vote for this, was there a referendum, was the decision made in a public debate? Did citizens or representatives get a chance to speak out on the subject?
Western governments these days (not just the US) are on a slippery slope where we no longer live in a democracy, but instead live in some weird form of despotism. I am not just trying to point the finger at the US, the same thing is happening in Europe where the EU is claiming more power, and there is no clear way for citizens to control or influence this political machine.
On August 12 2012 09:17 Slaughter wrote: Only thing I saw was something Cspan talking about how wiki leaks was collaborating with lulzsec for some hacking thing of Icelandic organizations.
The hell? Lulzsec only ever existed for one job and then it broke up (or rather was posed as).
Dunno that's what was on. Some woman was talking about her book on Anon and lulzsec and while I was watching she was talking about lulzsec being recruited for this one job by wiki leaks ( apparentlywaa too complex for them).
On August 12 2012 09:27 Gnarg wrote: The real problem with this if its true would be the secrecy. In a democracy big decisions about privacy and security should be made in public space, otherwise its not much of a democracy at all.
Agreed. Big difference between law enforcement and the judiciary running a surveillance network, open to media and public debate/scrutiny, with laws in place to protect the populace... And the intel agencies running it, selling shit to corporations, and doing god knows what else.
"they won't care about me" yeah ok, go look up the red scare and mk ultra. CIA and FBI are well known for their propensity for fucking around with completely random individuals just to learn things, and blackmailing/intimidating large swaths of the population. I dislike how people completely ignore the past and assume that for some reason, this time the government contractors and spooks won't use their shiny new toy on completely innocent folk or random leftists.
On August 12 2012 09:27 Gnarg wrote: The real problem with this if its true would be the secrecy. In a democracy big decisions about privacy and security should be made in public space, otherwise its not much of a democracy at all.
Agreed. Big difference between law enforcement and the judiciary running a surveillance network, open to media and public debate/scrutiny, with laws in place to protect the populace... And the intel agencies running it, selling shit to corporations, and doing god knows what else.
"they won't care about me" yeah ok, go look up the red scare and mk ultra. CIA and FBI are well known for their propensity for fucking around with completely random individuals just to learn things, and blackmailing/intimidating large swaths of the population. I dislike how people completely ignore the past and assume that for some reason, this time the government contractors and spooks won't use their shiny new toy on completely innocent folk or random leftists.
Democracy and freedom is a lie. No one would be stupid enough to let masses of people rule.
On August 12 2012 09:27 Gnarg wrote: The real problem with this if its true would be the secrecy. In a democracy big decisions about privacy and security should be made in public space, otherwise its not much of a democracy at all.
Agreed. Big difference between law enforcement and the judiciary running a surveillance network, open to media and public debate/scrutiny, with laws in place to protect the populace... And the intel agencies running it, selling shit to corporations, and doing god knows what else.
"they won't care about me" yeah ok, go look up the red scare and mk ultra. CIA and FBI are well known for their propensity for fucking around with completely random individuals just to learn things, and blackmailing/intimidating large swaths of the population. I dislike how people completely ignore the past and assume that for some reason, this time the government contractors and spooks won't use their shiny new toy on completely innocent folk or random leftists.
Democracy and freedom is a lie. No one would be stupid enough to let masses of people rule.
That's why the masses don't rule, they elect people to rule for them.
On August 12 2012 09:27 Gnarg wrote: The real problem with this if its true would be the secrecy. In a democracy big decisions about privacy and security should be made in public space, otherwise its not much of a democracy at all.
Agreed. Big difference between law enforcement and the judiciary running a surveillance network, open to media and public debate/scrutiny, with laws in place to protect the populace... And the intel agencies running it, selling shit to corporations, and doing god knows what else.
"they won't care about me" yeah ok, go look up the red scare and mk ultra. CIA and FBI are well known for their propensity for fucking around with completely random individuals just to learn things, and blackmailing/intimidating large swaths of the population. I dislike how people completely ignore the past and assume that for some reason, this time the government contractors and spooks won't use their shiny new toy on completely innocent folk or random leftists.
Democracy and freedom is a lie. No one would be stupid enough to let masses of people rule.
That's why the masses don't rule, they elect people to rule for them.
Right, and we have huge variety of uncontrolled people to elect. You truthfully think that elections of parties or presidents change anything? No "secret powers behind governments" want for people to have free will and do what they want. Thats why I love authoritarian regimes or communism, because they don't lie about freedom and show you true persons on the wheel of governing, where democracy has governments disguising in disguises and lies.
On August 12 2012 09:27 Gnarg wrote: The real problem with this if its true would be the secrecy. In a democracy big decisions about privacy and security should be made in public space, otherwise its not much of a democracy at all.
Agreed. Big difference between law enforcement and the judiciary running a surveillance network, open to media and public debate/scrutiny, with laws in place to protect the populace... And the intel agencies running it, selling shit to corporations, and doing god knows what else.
"they won't care about me" yeah ok, go look up the red scare and mk ultra. CIA and FBI are well known for their propensity for fucking around with completely random individuals just to learn things, and blackmailing/intimidating large swaths of the population. I dislike how people completely ignore the past and assume that for some reason, this time the government contractors and spooks won't use their shiny new toy on completely innocent folk or random leftists.
Democracy and freedom is a lie. No one would be stupid enough to let masses of people rule.
That's why the masses don't rule, they elect people to rule for them.
Right, and we have huge variety of uncontrolled people to elect. You truthfully think that elections of parties or presidents change anything? No "secret powers behind governments" want for people to have free will and do what they want. Thats why I love authoritarian regimes or communism, because they don't lie about freedom and show you true persons on the wheel of governing, where democracy has governments disguising in disguises and lies.
North-Korea sounds like just the country for you then!
So we have the technology and hardware to monitor many places in the nation for people of interest and a dedicated team of people working to combat illegal activity with the serious potential for terrorism. Explain to me how the fuck is this a bad thing? Are people idiots or does everyone suddenly support terrorism? Last time I checked people liked the concept of world peace, so why the fuck in God's name would counter-terrorism be scorned? Jesus Christ people need to wake up and stop being such hypocrites. Especially considering that you honestly have absolutely no reason to give a shit as long as you aren't a wanted criminal. And people never really seem to give a shit about breaking the law, so I don't see why that would cause a problem either.
On August 12 2012 10:33 Areon wrote: So we have the technology and hardware to monitor many places in the nation for people of interest and a dedicated team of people working to combat illegal activity with the serious potential for terrorism. Explain to me how the fuck is this a bad thing? Are people idiots or does everyone suddenly support terrorism? Last time I checked people liked the concept of world peace, so why the fuck in God's name would counter-terrorism be scorned? Jesus Christ people need to wake up and stop being such hypocrites.
They're selling their data to random mega corporations ... And the people Collecting and archiving the info from all those government cameras are private corporations with no oversight, transparency or required procedures like law enforcement or judiciary... Nothing stopping them from revealing everything they got on u to anyone who wants to pay for it... Again look up red scare or mk ultra for an example of how intelligence agencies and contractors can use systems like these to fuck over people like you or me with no repercussions.
On August 12 2012 09:27 Gnarg wrote: The real problem with this if its true would be the secrecy. In a democracy big decisions about privacy and security should be made in public space, otherwise its not much of a democracy at all.
Agreed. Big difference between law enforcement and the judiciary running a surveillance network, open to media and public debate/scrutiny, with laws in place to protect the populace... And the intel agencies running it, selling shit to corporations, and doing god knows what else.
"they won't care about me" yeah ok, go look up the red scare and mk ultra. CIA and FBI are well known for their propensity for fucking around with completely random individuals just to learn things, and blackmailing/intimidating large swaths of the population. I dislike how people completely ignore the past and assume that for some reason, this time the government contractors and spooks won't use their shiny new toy on completely innocent folk or random leftists.
Democracy and freedom is a lie. No one would be stupid enough to let masses of people rule.
That's why the masses don't rule, they elect people to rule for them.
Right, and we have huge variety of uncontrolled people to elect. You truthfully think that elections of parties or presidents change anything? No "secret powers behind governments" want for people to have free will and do what they want. Thats why I love authoritarian regimes or communism, because they don't lie about freedom and show you true persons on the wheel of governing, where democracy has governments disguising in disguises and lies.
I've seen that uneducated ramble so many times, I'm getting tired of the ignorance. Let me drop some knowledge upon you. Just a little bit so you won't get bored of reading. I'm doing this even though you'll refuse to take it because of your absolutist vision of politics, which is completely faulty.
You have a small variety of largely controlled people to elect, and they're confined to a pretty strict division of the 3 types of power, and everything is kept pretty well in checks and balances which have done a reasonable job so far.
Before I start, I want to concede something to you, but that's only because you limit your vision of politics to this, and I want to get your narrow mind to expand beyond this frankly childish vision of the world. It is true that every party, every government lies, cheats, steals, and lies some more. Are you satisfied with that, or are you an adult who's willing to ask okay, what's more?
Neckbeards don't know this because they spend their day in the basement, dwelling in pessimism, think about how bad the government is. But there are MAJOR and truly tangible things that happen both with internal and international policies when governments change.
I'll give you examples: Taxes: Depending on who you vote for, the tax code can and WILL change, a lot. Neckbeards don't know this because of their lack of financial responsibilities. Budget: The budget of the US changes DRAMATICALLY depending on who's elected. The focus is different. Neckbeards don't know this because they're busy thinking about how bad the government is. Do you think this is minor? Billions of dollars are moved all over the place. People lose jobs, others get jobs - sometimes jobs are lost, other times jobs are gained. This is huge, and lives are changed completely by this. Just because it's not you doesn't mean the US is not affected. Moral stuff: Ask homosexuals and blacks. They'll tell you that some governments work much harder to provoke social change. I'll use an example that I've actually studied: Research done by my uni showed that riot police is a LOT more aggressive under a conservative government than it is under a liberal government. Similar things happen in the US depending on who's in charge. Think about the abortion debate, gay marriage, capital punishment to name a few (out of hundreds). International stuff: Do you honestly think that Bush and Obama's administration have the same sort of behavior when it comes down to wars, globalization/protectionism, etc. Economic policies: Night and fucking day. Do you think the republicans would have handled the recession in the same way? Come on! Environmental policies: [More obvious stuff that YOU KNOW ABOUT] ...
What about Obamacare, that's billions of dollars. Changes people's lives. What about Medicare. Social security changed lives and civil rights. The clean air act. Reagan's gutting of financial regulations had massive repercussions for everyone in the US but also in the world. I could list you examples for hours.
"Oh it's all the same". This sounds like an insult but go read a book. Literally start reading things if you want to be able to be competent at these conversations. Don't just dump crude and unrefined feelings at us. Being pessimistic is fine, complaining about the lack of parties is fine, but to say that electing the democrats or the republicans makes no difference is to be willfully ignorant or just grossly dishonest.
And the idea that communist and authoritarian governments don't lie to their population is just fucking laughable, pardon my language. "[Communist and authoritarian governments] don't lie about freedom and show you true persons on the wheel of governing". Hilarious: (For the sake of clarity, I'm saying that authoritarian and communist governments also lie just as much if not more. Just mostly about different topics).
To answer your question, yes I "truthfully think that elections of parties or presidents change" things. Not only because this is my field of study and I know a thing or two, but also because if one applies themselves to look into it instead of spewing cookie-cutter nonsense, they will see that there are huge differences between the democrats and the republicans in the US.
If you want to complain about your government, learn about it, and trust me you WILL find hundreds, thousands of legitimate reasons to complain and to be outraged. Legitimate reasons.
On August 11 2012 09:06 Liquid`Drone wrote: If true, how is this not big news? Global surveillance with facial recognition? You're fine with someone knowing where you are and what you're doing at every moment? There's absolutely no way any possible terrorist or other threat justifies this gross invasion of privacy, and that's that.
I don't care even the slightest bit. I have nothing to hide, nor do I think anyone gives two shits about what I do or where I am.
Recognize my face all day and all night for all I care.
The important part of 1984 is not the surveillance. Winston Smith is not caught via telescreen, he's caught via informants. If our governments decide to become repressive totalitarian police states, they don't need supercomputers in hidden data centers. They managed just fine without that for most of the 20th century in pretty much half of the developed world.
On August 11 2012 09:06 Liquid`Drone wrote: If true, how is this not big news? Global surveillance with facial recognition? You're fine with someone knowing where you are and what you're doing at every moment? There's absolutely no way any possible terrorist or other threat justifies this gross invasion of privacy, and that's that.
I don't care even the slightest bit. I have nothing to hide, nor do I think anyone gives two shits about what I do or where I am.
Recognize my face all day and all night for all I care.
The important part of 1984 is not the surveillance. Winston Smith is not caught via telescreen, he's caught via informants. If our governments decide to become repressive totalitarian police states, they don't need supercomputers in hidden data centers. They managed just fine without that for most of the 20th century in pretty much half of the developed world.
I think some of us place more of a premium on a certain level of privacy. The integration of technology into society has frayed privacy, certainly, but I'd like to hope there is still room for me to be removed from the grid. That's likely naive, but I don't think I'm alone, and that's why this is potentially huge news.
On August 12 2012 11:33 ImNightmare wrote: Ahhh soooo they are spying on me while I am in my room, at night. while my doors are locked? Oh boy... I hope its a woman who saw what I was doing.
Through your webcam, and I doubt its a woman.
Personally I feel I have nothing to hide so it doesn't bother me much, but it does have a negative effect. Like others have posted now every trace you leave behind has a pricetag on it. It really just makes me a lot more cautious. Most of this technology has been around for a long time it just may be your first time hearing about it. If you know the little tricks you can learn ways to fight it.
On August 11 2012 09:06 Liquid`Drone wrote: If true, how is this not big news? Global surveillance with facial recognition? You're fine with someone knowing where you are and what you're doing at every moment? There's absolutely no way any possible terrorist or other threat justifies this gross invasion of privacy, and that's that.
I don't care even the slightest bit. I have nothing to hide, nor do I think anyone gives two shits about what I do or where I am.
Recognize my face all day and all night for all I care.
The important part of 1984 is not the surveillance. Winston Smith is not caught via telescreen, he's caught via informants. If our governments decide to become repressive totalitarian police states, they don't need supercomputers in hidden data centers. They managed just fine without that for most of the 20th century in pretty much half of the developed world.
So you don't give a shit about having a private company and corporations with unlimited access to a large percentage of security cams (government and private alike) and database of everything on those cameras, as well as records from citizens who reported things to the police thinking they are talking to them only and not this corporate coca cola citizen monitoring network. Do you not care that this is being done with your tax dollars and no input or debate from the public, you or your representatives in congress or the judiciary? Do you not care that there are no ethical rules or laws in place to regulate this surveillance network, nor could there be any because it was all set up in secret by cia and ex cia known for their unethical treatment of innocent US civilians? Do you not care if any laws or ethical regulations are ever put in place to restrict what companies can do with the dossiers they can now purchase on you, with info from government security cams and technology that no one ever said was going to be used for this purpose when you were paying for it all? Do you not care about what is likely a massive black ops censoring attempt by these same government funded companies to punish wikileaks for exposing this information?
On August 12 2012 11:33 ImNightmare wrote: Ahhh soooo they are spying on me while I am in my room, at night. while my doors are locked? Oh boy... I hope its a woman who saw what I was doing.
Through your webcam, and I doubt its a woman.
Personally I feel I have nothing to hide so it doesn't bother me much, but it does have a negative effect. Like others have posted now every trace you leave behind has a pricetag on it. It really just makes me a lot more cautious. Most of this technology has been around for a long time it just may be your first time hearing about it. If you know the little tricks you can learn ways to fight it.
On August 12 2012 11:33 ImNightmare wrote: Ahhh soooo they are spying on me while I am in my room, at night. while my doors are locked? Oh boy... I hope its a woman who saw what I was doing.
Through your webcam, and I doubt its a woman.
Personally I feel I have nothing to hide so it doesn't bother me much, but it does have a negative effect. Like others have posted now every trace you leave behind has a pricetag on it. It really just makes me a lot more cautious. Most of this technology has been around for a long time it just may be your first time hearing about it. If you know the little tricks you can learn ways to fight it.
Usto be a site up that randomly hacked into webcams/security cameras across the world, I can't remember how I found it (might have been stumble upon or a wiki wormhole) but anywho, there I was starring at a security camera to what looked to be a parking lot (not that cool I know) but when I went to the next one it was someones room (thankfully no one in it, I'd of felt fucked up). I was pretty young, say 16 or so, I was scared that I'd get arrested or something because of it (silly kid) anyway yeah, it'd be really fucking odd if that started happening.
On August 12 2012 09:27 Gnarg wrote: The real problem with this if its true would be the secrecy. In a democracy big decisions about privacy and security should be made in public space, otherwise its not much of a democracy at all.
Agreed. Big difference between law enforcement and the judiciary running a surveillance network, open to media and public debate/scrutiny, with laws in place to protect the populace... And the intel agencies running it, selling shit to corporations, and doing god knows what else.
"they won't care about me" yeah ok, go look up the red scare and mk ultra. CIA and FBI are well known for their propensity for fucking around with completely random individuals just to learn things, and blackmailing/intimidating large swaths of the population. I dislike how people completely ignore the past and assume that for some reason, this time the government contractors and spooks won't use their shiny new toy on completely innocent folk or random leftists.
Democracy and freedom is a lie. No one would be stupid enough to let masses of people rule.
That's why the masses don't rule, they elect people to rule for them.
Right, and we have huge variety of uncontrolled people to elect. You truthfully think that elections of parties or presidents change anything? No "secret powers behind governments" want for people to have free will and do what they want. Thats why I love authoritarian regimes or communism, because they don't lie about freedom and show you true persons on the wheel of governing, where democracy has governments disguising in disguises and lies.
I've seen that uneducated ramble so many times, I'm getting tired of the ignorance. Let me drop some knowledge upon you. Just a little bit so you won't get bored of reading. I'm doing this even though you'll refuse to take it because of your absolutist vision of politics, which is completely faulty.
You have a small variety of largely controlled people to elect, and they're confined to a pretty strict division of the 3 types of power, and everything is kept pretty well in checks and balances which have done a reasonable job so far.
Before I start, I want to concede something to you, but that's only because you limit your vision of politics to this, and I want to get your narrow mind to expand beyond this frankly childish vision of the world. It is true that every party, every government lies, cheats, steals, and lies some more. Are you satisfied with that, or are you an adult who's willing to ask okay, what's more?
Neckbeards don't know this because they spend their day in the basement, dwelling in pessimism, think about how bad the government is. But there are MAJOR and truly tangible things that happen both with internal and international policies when governments change.
I'll give you examples: Taxes: Depending on who you vote for, the tax code can and WILL change, a lot. Neckbeards don't know this because of their lack of financial responsibilities. Budget: The budget of the US changes DRAMATICALLY depending on who's elected. The focus is different. Neckbeards don't know this because they're busy thinking about how bad the government is. Do you think this is minor? Billions of dollars are moved all over the place. People lose jobs, others get jobs - sometimes jobs are lost, other times jobs are gained. This is huge, and lives are changed completely by this. Just because it's not you doesn't mean the US is not affected. Moral stuff: Ask homosexuals and blacks. They'll tell you that some governments work much harder to provoke social change. I'll use an example that I've actually studied: Research done by my uni showed that riot police is a LOT more aggressive under a conservative government than it is under a liberal government. Similar things happen in the US depending on who's in charge. Think about the abortion debate, gay marriage, capital punishment to name a few (out of hundreds). International stuff: Do you honestly think that Bush and Obama's administration have the same sort of behavior when it comes down to wars, globalization/protectionism, etc. Economic policies: Night and fucking day. Do you think the republicans would have handled the recession in the same way? Come on! Environmental policies: [More obvious stuff that YOU KNOW ABOUT] ...
What about Obamacare, that's billions of dollars. Changes people's lives. What about Medicare. Social security changed lives and civil rights. The clean air act. Reagan's gutting of financial regulations had massive repercussions for everyone in the US but also in the world. I could list you examples for hours.
"Oh it's all the same". This sounds like an insult but go read a book. Literally start reading things if you want to be able to be competent at these conversations. Don't just dump crude and unrefined feelings at us. Being pessimistic is fine, complaining about the lack of parties is fine, but to say that electing the democrats or the republicans makes no difference is to be willfully ignorant or just grossly dishonest.
And the idea that communist and authoritarian governments don't lie to their population is just fucking laughable, pardon my language. "[Communist and authoritarian governments] don't lie about freedom and show you true persons on the wheel of governing". Hilarious: (For the sake of clarity, I'm saying that authoritarian and communist governments also lie just as much if not more. Just mostly about different topics).
To answer your question, yes I "truthfully think that elections of parties or presidents change" things. Not only because this is my field of study and I know a thing or two, but also because if one applies themselves to look into it instead of spewing cookie-cutter nonsense, they will see that there are huge differences between the democrats and the republicans in the US.
If you want to complain about your government, learn about it, and trust me you WILL find hundreds, thousands of legitimate reasons to complain and to be outraged. Legitimate reasons.
hahaha, i think that was a rhetorical question from him... i think he would more likely appreciate all the effort you put into your post and point without all the aggressiveness.
..neckbeards? hahaha i think it's a bit too soon to call someone out like that; as far as i know, you're both still complete strangers to one another.
but i agree this this sentiment very, very much:
If you want to complain about your government, learn about it, and trust me you WILL find hundreds, thousands of legitimate reasons to complain and to be outraged. Legitimate reasons.
On August 12 2012 09:27 Gnarg wrote: The real problem with this if its true would be the secrecy. In a democracy big decisions about privacy and security should be made in public space, otherwise its not much of a democracy at all.
Agreed. Big difference between law enforcement and the judiciary running a surveillance network, open to media and public debate/scrutiny, with laws in place to protect the populace... And the intel agencies running it, selling shit to corporations, and doing god knows what else.
"they won't care about me" yeah ok, go look up the red scare and mk ultra. CIA and FBI are well known for their propensity for fucking around with completely random individuals just to learn things, and blackmailing/intimidating large swaths of the population. I dislike how people completely ignore the past and assume that for some reason, this time the government contractors and spooks won't use their shiny new toy on completely innocent folk or random leftists.
Democracy and freedom is a lie. No one would be stupid enough to let masses of people rule.
That's why the masses don't rule, they elect people to rule for them.
Right, and we have huge variety of uncontrolled people to elect. You truthfully think that elections of parties or presidents change anything? No "secret powers behind governments" want for people to have free will and do what they want. Thats why I love authoritarian regimes or communism, because they don't lie about freedom and show you true persons on the wheel of governing, where democracy has governments disguising in disguises and lies.
I've seen that uneducated ramble so many times, I'm getting tired of the ignorance. Let me drop some knowledge upon you. Just a little bit so you won't get bored of reading. I'm doing this even though you'll refuse to take it because of your absolutist vision of politics, which is completely faulty.
You have a small variety of largely controlled people to elect, and they're confined to a pretty strict division of the 3 types of power, and everything is kept pretty well in checks and balances which have done a reasonable job so far.
Before I start, I want to concede something to you, but that's only because you limit your vision of politics to this, and I want to get your narrow mind to expand beyond this frankly childish vision of the world. It is true that every party, every government lies, cheats, steals, and lies some more. Are you satisfied with that, or are you an adult who's willing to ask okay, what's more?
Neckbeards don't know this because they spend their day in the basement, dwelling in pessimism, think about how bad the government is. But there are MAJOR and truly tangible things that happen both with internal and international policies when governments change.
I'll give you examples: Taxes: Depending on who you vote for, the tax code can and WILL change, a lot. Neckbeards don't know this because of their lack of financial responsibilities. Budget: The budget of the US changes DRAMATICALLY depending on who's elected. The focus is different. Neckbeards don't know this because they're busy thinking about how bad the government is. Do you think this is minor? Billions of dollars are moved all over the place. People lose jobs, others get jobs - sometimes jobs are lost, other times jobs are gained. This is huge, and lives are changed completely by this. Just because it's not you doesn't mean the US is not affected. Moral stuff: Ask homosexuals and blacks. They'll tell you that some governments work much harder to provoke social change. I'll use an example that I've actually studied: Research done by my uni showed that riot police is a LOT more aggressive under a conservative government than it is under a liberal government. Similar things happen in the US depending on who's in charge. Think about the abortion debate, gay marriage, capital punishment to name a few (out of hundreds). International stuff: Do you honestly think that Bush and Obama's administration have the same sort of behavior when it comes down to wars, globalization/protectionism, etc. Economic policies: Night and fucking day. Do you think the republicans would have handled the recession in the same way? Come on! Environmental policies: [More obvious stuff that YOU KNOW ABOUT] ...
What about Obamacare, that's billions of dollars. Changes people's lives. What about Medicare. Social security changed lives and civil rights. The clean air act. Reagan's gutting of financial regulations had massive repercussions for everyone in the US but also in the world. I could list you examples for hours.
"Oh it's all the same". This sounds like an insult but go read a book. Literally start reading things if you want to be able to be competent at these conversations. Don't just dump crude and unrefined feelings at us. Being pessimistic is fine, complaining about the lack of parties is fine, but to say that electing the democrats or the republicans makes no difference is to be willfully ignorant or just grossly dishonest.
And the idea that communist and authoritarian governments don't lie to their population is just fucking laughable, pardon my language. "[Communist and authoritarian governments] don't lie about freedom and show you true persons on the wheel of governing". Hilarious: (For the sake of clarity, I'm saying that authoritarian and communist governments also lie just as much if not more. Just mostly about different topics).
To answer your question, yes I "truthfully think that elections of parties or presidents change" things. Not only because this is my field of study and I know a thing or two, but also because if one applies themselves to look into it instead of spewing cookie-cutter nonsense, they will see that there are huge differences between the democrats and the republicans in the US.
If you want to complain about your government, learn about it, and trust me you WILL find hundreds, thousands of legitimate reasons to complain and to be outraged. Legitimate reasons.
hahaha, i think that was a rhetorical question from him... i think he would more likely appreciate all the effort you put into your post and point without all the aggressiveness.
..neckbeards? hahaha i think it's a bit too soon to call someone out like that; as far as i know, you're both still complete strangers to one another.
If you want to complain about your government, learn about it, and trust me you WILL find hundreds, thousands of legitimate reasons to complain and to be outraged. Legitimate reasons.
It was rhetorical yes, but I'm pretty sure that he does seriously think (like many people) that republicans and democrats are all the same in practice, which is not the case at all - even though the American sky doesn't change colors.
As for the neckbeards thing, I meant that as a generality =)
On August 12 2012 09:27 Gnarg wrote: The real problem with this if its true would be the secrecy. In a democracy big decisions about privacy and security should be made in public space, otherwise its not much of a democracy at all.
Agreed. Big difference between law enforcement and the judiciary running a surveillance network, open to media and public debate/scrutiny, with laws in place to protect the populace... And the intel agencies running it, selling shit to corporations, and doing god knows what else.
"they won't care about me" yeah ok, go look up the red scare and mk ultra. CIA and FBI are well known for their propensity for fucking around with completely random individuals just to learn things, and blackmailing/intimidating large swaths of the population. I dislike how people completely ignore the past and assume that for some reason, this time the government contractors and spooks won't use their shiny new toy on completely innocent folk or random leftists.
The 'I don't care, won't affect me' crew blow my mind, or at least parts of them.
Some of the same people, the same posters who have complained about stuff like a public healthcare option, or gun control being 'intrusive government', are ok with this kind of surveillance mechanism?
It's not the positions I agree/disagree (necessarily) with, but it's the inherent contradictions on having such seemingly irreconcilable viewpoints, I really don't get it.
On August 12 2012 09:27 Gnarg wrote: The real problem with this if its true would be the secrecy. In a democracy big decisions about privacy and security should be made in public space, otherwise its not much of a democracy at all.
Agreed. Big difference between law enforcement and the judiciary running a surveillance network, open to media and public debate/scrutiny, with laws in place to protect the populace... And the intel agencies running it, selling shit to corporations, and doing god knows what else.
"they won't care about me" yeah ok, go look up the red scare and mk ultra. CIA and FBI are well known for their propensity for fucking around with completely random individuals just to learn things, and blackmailing/intimidating large swaths of the population. I dislike how people completely ignore the past and assume that for some reason, this time the government contractors and spooks won't use their shiny new toy on completely innocent folk or random leftists.
Democracy and freedom is a lie. No one would be stupid enough to let masses of people rule.
That's why the masses don't rule, they elect people to rule for them.
Right, and we have huge variety of uncontrolled people to elect. You truthfully think that elections of parties or presidents change anything? No "secret powers behind governments" want for people to have free will and do what they want. Thats why I love authoritarian regimes or communism, because they don't lie about freedom and show you true persons on the wheel of governing, where democracy has governments disguising in disguises and lies.
I've seen that uneducated ramble so many times, I'm getting tired of the ignorance. Let me drop some knowledge upon you. Just a little bit so you won't get bored of reading. I'm doing this even though you'll refuse to take it because of your absolutist vision of politics, which is completely faulty.
You have a small variety of largely controlled people to elect, and they're confined to a pretty strict division of the 3 types of power, and everything is kept pretty well in checks and balances which have done a reasonable job so far.
Before I start, I want to concede something to you, but that's only because you limit your vision of politics to this, and I want to get your narrow mind to expand beyond this frankly childish vision of the world. It is true that every party, every government lies, cheats, steals, and lies some more. Are you satisfied with that, or are you an adult who's willing to ask okay, what's more?
Neckbeards don't know this because they spend their day in the basement, dwelling in pessimism, think about how bad the government is. But there are MAJOR and truly tangible things that happen both with internal and international policies when governments change.
I'll give you examples: Taxes: Depending on who you vote for, the tax code can and WILL change, a lot. Neckbeards don't know this because of their lack of financial responsibilities. Budget: The budget of the US changes DRAMATICALLY depending on who's elected. The focus is different. Neckbeards don't know this because they're busy thinking about how bad the government is. Do you think this is minor? Billions of dollars are moved all over the place. People lose jobs, others get jobs - sometimes jobs are lost, other times jobs are gained. This is huge, and lives are changed completely by this. Just because it's not you doesn't mean the US is not affected. Moral stuff: Ask homosexuals and blacks. They'll tell you that some governments work much harder to provoke social change. I'll use an example that I've actually studied: Research done by my uni showed that riot police is a LOT more aggressive under a conservative government than it is under a liberal government. Similar things happen in the US depending on who's in charge. Think about the abortion debate, gay marriage, capital punishment to name a few (out of hundreds). International stuff: Do you honestly think that Bush and Obama's administration have the same sort of behavior when it comes down to wars, globalization/protectionism, etc. Economic policies: Night and fucking day. Do you think the republicans would have handled the recession in the same way? Come on! Environmental policies: [More obvious stuff that YOU KNOW ABOUT] ...
What about Obamacare, that's billions of dollars. Changes people's lives. What about Medicare. Social security changed lives and civil rights. The clean air act. Reagan's gutting of financial regulations had massive repercussions for everyone in the US but also in the world. I could list you examples for hours.
"Oh it's all the same". This sounds like an insult but go read a book. Literally start reading things if you want to be able to be competent at these conversations. Don't just dump crude and unrefined feelings at us. Being pessimistic is fine, complaining about the lack of parties is fine, but to say that electing the democrats or the republicans makes no difference is to be willfully ignorant or just grossly dishonest.
And the idea that communist and authoritarian governments don't lie to their population is just fucking laughable, pardon my language. "[Communist and authoritarian governments] don't lie about freedom and show you true persons on the wheel of governing". Hilarious: (For the sake of clarity, I'm saying that authoritarian and communist governments also lie just as much if not more. Just mostly about different topics).
To answer your question, yes I "truthfully think that elections of parties or presidents change" things. Not only because this is my field of study and I know a thing or two, but also because if one applies themselves to look into it instead of spewing cookie-cutter nonsense, they will see that there are huge differences between the democrats and the republicans in the US.
If you want to complain about your government, learn about it, and trust me you WILL find hundreds, thousands of legitimate reasons to complain and to be outraged. Legitimate reasons.
But all choices done by governments are not for the good of common folk like 80% of time. They are done to make their supporters happy. And what are their supporters? All those companies that can buy secret info they want. And they do have right - they paid to have governing rights behind the scene.
All these people bitching at the "So what?" crowd is killing me. What would you like us to do? Go grab my gun? Meet up in thousands? Storm DC? Please, elaborate. Or are we just supposed to agree with you as we all bask in the faint glow of our monitors with our tin foil hats while discussing how much this is bad? Are we supposed to be afraid of what we can't stop?Everyday paranoid more than the last.
Please, explain it too me, because I am not going to sit here worried to death over something that is not affecting me right now.
On topic: I think there are many things that can be drawn from this leak, why are we all assuming the worse?
On August 12 2012 10:33 Areon wrote: So we have the technology and hardware to monitor many places in the nation for people of interest and a dedicated team of people working to combat illegal activity with the serious potential for terrorism. Explain to me how the fuck is this a bad thing? Are people idiots or does everyone suddenly support terrorism? Last time I checked people liked the concept of world peace, so why the fuck in God's name would counter-terrorism be scorned? Jesus Christ people need to wake up and stop being such hypocrites. Especially considering that you honestly have absolutely no reason to give a shit as long as you aren't a wanted criminal. And people never really seem to give a shit about breaking the law, so I don't see why that would cause a problem either.
And if this holy government entity made these little chips that it would implant under your skin so it can track everything you do 24/7 you would be okay with that? After all, we need to destroy these evil muslim guys before they destroy us.
On August 11 2012 09:06 Liquid`Drone wrote: If true, how is this not big news? Global surveillance with facial recognition? You're fine with someone knowing where you are and what you're doing at every moment? There's absolutely no way any possible terrorist or other threat justifies this gross invasion of privacy, and that's that.
I don't care even the slightest bit. I have nothing to hide, nor do I think anyone gives two shits about what I do or where I am.
Recognize my face all day and all night for all I care.
The important part of 1984 is not the surveillance. Winston Smith is not caught via telescreen, he's caught via informants. If our governments decide to become repressive totalitarian police states, they don't need supercomputers in hidden data centers. They managed just fine without that for most of the 20th century in pretty much half of the developed world.
Orwell couldn't even have imagined a world like ours. If our government turned authoritarian, it is the NSA and its ridiculous computing power that will be the secret police of that world. Or not that secret for that matter.
This is something people don't seem to realize. The difference between the US and say Iran isn't that people who don't do anything wrong and keep their heads down have markedly different levels of freedoms. The difference is that in the US people can have a difference off opinion with the government and still have the same level of freedom. In Iran that is not possible. One big reason for this has always been the governments moratorium on extensive spying on US soil. Crossing that line isn't going to destroy the structure of our society today or tomorrow, but perhaps in the next few decades.
Think about 32 years from now when we have a new president who was a teenager today. At the press of a button the NSA and any number of participating corporations can pull up a shit load of incriminating information on the president. The same is true for politicians, judges, lawyers, reporters. Shit even scientists. The only thing that would prevent this (in case such a wide surveillance system isn't shut down) is the conscience of the people working at these corporations and for the NSA.
And lets be honest, that is definitely no protection at all.
On August 12 2012 22:08 Competent wrote: All these people bitching at the "So what?" crowd is killing me. What would you like us to do? Go grab my gun? Meet up in thousands? Storm DC? Please, elaborate. Or are we just supposed to agree with you as we all bask in the faint glow of our monitors with our tin foil hats while discussing how much this is bad? Are we supposed to be afraid of what we can't stop?Everyday paranoid more than the last.
Please, explain it too me, because I am not going to sit here worried to death over something that is not affecting me right now.
On topic: I think there are many things that can be drawn from this leak, why are we all assuming the worse?
Part of the whole premise of America, and how it actually got its start as a nation, is the idea that people will react just how you said to an overly tyrannical government. We are not anywhere close to that point yet, but the principle stands.
What I want is a proportionate response. Something slightly above apathy but below revolutionary zeal, it does not always have to be one or the other. Usually, a policy being massively unpopular is enough to make the government to back down, or implement it in a more sensible manner. If too many people have become accepting to the point where their discontent cannot overcome their default uncaring acceptance of that which is not immediately and directly effecting them, then the discontent which they shouldve at least allowed themselves to feel will not even register on opinion polls, surveys, internet trends, newspaper polls, protest gathering numbers, blogosphere, etc. and have no impact whatsoever.
The mere fact of not liking something and expressing that fact to others, of whom a few will contribute to the ultimately large number of people who are polled, surveyed and analyzed by the massive pr industry, can create change, even though this mechanism may be subtle to the point where it's impact may be denied or underestimated by some.
Part of being a human being is forming nuanced opinions and acting on them, even in small ways, so that the world around you does not become gradually shittier. Those few who actually do do things like march on Washington and organize protest movements are more crucial, but certainly not the only factor.
Anyone who is unintelligent enough to use the common idiot's argument: "if you have nothing to hide you shouldn't be scared" should be executed to preserve the potency of the human gene pool.
On August 11 2012 09:06 Liquid`Drone wrote: If true, how is this not big news? Global surveillance with facial recognition? You're fine with someone knowing where you are and what you're doing at every moment? There's absolutely no way any possible terrorist or other threat justifies this gross invasion of privacy, and that's that.
I don't care even the slightest bit. I have nothing to hide, nor do I think anyone gives two shits about what I do or where I am.
Recognize my face all day and all night for all I care.
The important part of 1984 is not the surveillance. Winston Smith is not caught via telescreen, he's caught via informants. If our governments decide to become repressive totalitarian police states, they don't need supercomputers in hidden data centers. They managed just fine without that for most of the 20th century in pretty much half of the developed world.
Orwell couldn't even have imagined a world like ours. If our government turned authoritarian, it is the NSA and its ridiculous computing power that will be the secret police of that world. Or not that secret for that matter.
This is something people don't seem to realize. The difference between the US and say Iran isn't that people who don't do anything wrong and keep their heads down have markedly different levels of freedoms. The difference is that in the US people can have a difference off opinion with the government and still have the same level of freedom. In Iran that is not possible. One big reason for this has always been the governments moratorium on extensive spying on US soil. Crossing that line isn't going to destroy the structure of our society today or tomorrow, but perhaps in the next few decades.
Think about 32 years from now when we have a new president who was a teenager today. At the press of a button the NSA and any number of participating corporations can pull up a shit load of incriminating information on the president. The same is true for politicians, judges, lawyers, reporters. Shit even scientists. The only thing that would prevent this (in case such a wide surveillance system isn't shut down) is the conscience of the people working at these corporations and for the NSA.
And lets be honest, that is definitely no protection at all.
If we could pull potentially incriminating information on anyone, wouldn't it become much less valuable? People currently underestimate how many laws the average person breaks, but if something like this becomes commonplace I'd hope it would change.
the first two pages, with all that 1984 bashing reminds me of the thread, explaining how agencies try to influence threads to go downhill. this really looks like somebody tries to discuss irrelevant stuff just so that this topic wont get discussed here.
i might be paranoid but i'm glad i though of that and not go with the thread derailing haha
i'm glad i am not living in the USA although it is still very worrisome for everyone on this planet and i hope it gets more public attention!
On August 11 2012 09:06 Liquid`Drone wrote: If true, how is this not big news? Global surveillance with facial recognition? You're fine with someone knowing where you are and what you're doing at every moment? There's absolutely no way any possible terrorist or other threat justifies this gross invasion of privacy, and that's that.
I don't care even the slightest bit. I have nothing to hide, nor do I think anyone gives two shits about what I do or where I am.
Recognize my face all day and all night for all I care.
The important part of 1984 is not the surveillance. Winston Smith is not caught via telescreen, he's caught via informants. If our governments decide to become repressive totalitarian police states, they don't need supercomputers in hidden data centers. They managed just fine without that for most of the 20th century in pretty much half of the developed world.
Orwell couldn't even have imagined a world like ours. If our government turned authoritarian, it is the NSA and its ridiculous computing power that will be the secret police of that world. Or not that secret for that matter.
This is something people don't seem to realize. The difference between the US and say Iran isn't that people who don't do anything wrong and keep their heads down have markedly different levels of freedoms. The difference is that in the US people can have a difference off opinion with the government and still have the same level of freedom. In Iran that is not possible. One big reason for this has always been the governments moratorium on extensive spying on US soil. Crossing that line isn't going to destroy the structure of our society today or tomorrow, but perhaps in the next few decades.
Think about 32 years from now when we have a new president who was a teenager today. At the press of a button the NSA and any number of participating corporations can pull up a shit load of incriminating information on the president. The same is true for politicians, judges, lawyers, reporters. Shit even scientists. The only thing that would prevent this (in case such a wide surveillance system isn't shut down) is the conscience of the people working at these corporations and for the NSA.
And lets be honest, that is definitely no protection at all.
If we could pull potentially incriminating information on anyone, wouldn't it become much less valuable? People currently underestimate how many laws the average person breaks, but if something like this becomes commonplace I'd hope it would change.
Having incriminating information on everyone doesn't mean we need to expose incriminating information on everyone. I don't think that is the purpose off TrapWire today. Its a lot more likely its about ferreting out crime and stopping terrorism. But there is a gigantic slippery slope here.
Sacrificing liberty for safety. Never works. Bow down and submit to your overloads or else be labeled as a "enemy combatant" or "terrorist suspect" and everyone will believe it.
On August 12 2012 23:43 DemigodcelpH wrote: Anyone who is unintelligent enough to use the common idiot's argument: "if you have nothing to hide you shouldn't be scared" should be executed to preserve the potency of the human gene pool.
Haha,
It's sad that a lot of my fellow countrymen cannot understand the implication of this. I think the thing we all need to keep in mind is that with the digitization of information that it is far easier to be tracked. This is a double edged sword - it means that people can stalk you easier but it also means that people like Asange can uncover this much easier. The potential for abuse of information has always existed along with the agencies that are willing to find it out, and if Trapwire went away another would spring to take it's place, but we should be comforted that there is now people willing to combat it.
This thread has so many mornic comments in it it's impossible to read. Anyone who thinks this is somehow justified is severely deluded about the world and how it works.
On August 12 2012 09:27 Gnarg wrote: The real problem with this if its true would be the secrecy. In a democracy big decisions about privacy and security should be made in public space, otherwise its not much of a democracy at all.
Agreed. Big difference between law enforcement and the judiciary running a surveillance network, open to media and public debate/scrutiny, with laws in place to protect the populace... And the intel agencies running it, selling shit to corporations, and doing god knows what else.
"they won't care about me" yeah ok, go look up the red scare and mk ultra. CIA and FBI are well known for their propensity for fucking around with completely random individuals just to learn things, and blackmailing/intimidating large swaths of the population. I dislike how people completely ignore the past and assume that for some reason, this time the government contractors and spooks won't use their shiny new toy on completely innocent folk or random leftists.
Democracy and freedom is a lie. No one would be stupid enough to let masses of people rule.
That's why the masses don't rule, they elect people to rule for them.
Right, and we have huge variety of uncontrolled people to elect. You truthfully think that elections of parties or presidents change anything? No "secret powers behind governments" want for people to have free will and do what they want. Thats why I love authoritarian regimes or communism, because they don't lie about freedom and show you true persons on the wheel of governing, where democracy has governments disguising in disguises and lies.
I've seen that uneducated ramble so many times, I'm getting tired of the ignorance. Let me drop some knowledge upon you. Just a little bit so you won't get bored of reading. I'm doing this even though you'll refuse to take it because of your absolutist vision of politics, which is completely faulty.
You have a small variety of largely controlled people to elect, and they're confined to a pretty strict division of the 3 types of power, and everything is kept pretty well in checks and balances which have done a reasonable job so far.
Before I start, I want to concede something to you, but that's only because you limit your vision of politics to this, and I want to get your narrow mind to expand beyond this frankly childish vision of the world. It is true that every party, every government lies, cheats, steals, and lies some more. Are you satisfied with that, or are you an adult who's willing to ask okay, what's more?
Neckbeards don't know this because they spend their day in the basement, dwelling in pessimism, think about how bad the government is. But there are MAJOR and truly tangible things that happen both with internal and international policies when governments change.
I'll give you examples: Taxes: Depending on who you vote for, the tax code can and WILL change, a lot. Neckbeards don't know this because of their lack of financial responsibilities. Budget: The budget of the US changes DRAMATICALLY depending on who's elected. The focus is different. Neckbeards don't know this because they're busy thinking about how bad the government is. Do you think this is minor? Billions of dollars are moved all over the place. People lose jobs, others get jobs - sometimes jobs are lost, other times jobs are gained. This is huge, and lives are changed completely by this. Just because it's not you doesn't mean the US is not affected. Moral stuff: Ask homosexuals and blacks. They'll tell you that some governments work much harder to provoke social change. I'll use an example that I've actually studied: Research done by my uni showed that riot police is a LOT more aggressive under a conservative government than it is under a liberal government. Similar things happen in the US depending on who's in charge. Think about the abortion debate, gay marriage, capital punishment to name a few (out of hundreds). International stuff: Do you honestly think that Bush and Obama's administration have the same sort of behavior when it comes down to wars, globalization/protectionism, etc. Economic policies: Night and fucking day. Do you think the republicans would have handled the recession in the same way? Come on! Environmental policies: [More obvious stuff that YOU KNOW ABOUT] ...
What about Obamacare, that's billions of dollars. Changes people's lives. What about Medicare. Social security changed lives and civil rights. The clean air act. Reagan's gutting of financial regulations had massive repercussions for everyone in the US but also in the world. I could list you examples for hours.
"Oh it's all the same". This sounds like an insult but go read a book. Literally start reading things if you want to be able to be competent at these conversations. Don't just dump crude and unrefined feelings at us. Being pessimistic is fine, complaining about the lack of parties is fine, but to say that electing the democrats or the republicans makes no difference is to be willfully ignorant or just grossly dishonest.
And the idea that communist and authoritarian governments don't lie to their population is just fucking laughable, pardon my language. "[Communist and authoritarian governments] don't lie about freedom and show you true persons on the wheel of governing". Hilarious: (For the sake of clarity, I'm saying that authoritarian and communist governments also lie just as much if not more. Just mostly about different topics).
To answer your question, yes I "truthfully think that elections of parties or presidents change" things. Not only because this is my field of study and I know a thing or two, but also because if one applies themselves to look into it instead of spewing cookie-cutter nonsense, they will see that there are huge differences between the democrats and the republicans in the US.
If you want to complain about your government, learn about it, and trust me you WILL find hundreds, thousands of legitimate reasons to complain and to be outraged. Legitimate reasons.
But all choices done by governments are not for the good of common folk like 80% of time. They are done to make their supporters happy. And what are their supporters? All those companies that can buy secret info they want. And they do have right - they paid to have governing rights behind the scene.
Well that's true but a bit of an exaggeration as well. Yes private companies can lobby pretty hard, but they don't have all the political power, not even close. Not "80%" either, whatever the percentage happens to be (if it can be calculated in such a way). They do have more than they should, but you have to understand that there are many of them with conflicting opinions, some of them are actually good for everyone. But the people still elect their government and do have a fair bit of power, and the politicians generally try to do good to the people. Admittedly they do get sidetracked by the demands of corporations, which is a sign of a sick democracy, without a doubt - but it's not entirely controlled by corporations either. PPACA is a good example of something that essentially costs money to corporations without benefiting them at all.
And you can be sure that those soulless corporations will complain about they'd rather see their employees die than to pay money. It has already happened, and somehow some of the population supports that kind of shit. I could go on about how protecting our corporations is important, but now they're being coddled by the very people who are getting fucked by them.
I've read my own post, and I sound conflicted as hell - but that's because the situation isn't simple at all.
On August 12 2012 23:51 gugarutz wrote: the first two pages, with all that 1984 bashing reminds me of the thread, explaining how agencies try to influence threads to go downhill. this really looks like somebody tries to discuss irrelevant stuff just so that this topic wont get discussed here.
i might be paranoid but i'm glad i though of that and not go with the thread derailing haha
i'm glad i am not living in the USA although it is still very worrisome for everyone on this planet and i hope it gets more public attention!
yeah, i've come to the conclusion that psyops is a real thing, and teamliquid has gotten large enough that the companies feel its important enough to interfere with it
there are a suspiciously large number of people who post all these detailed arguments in politics threads and then have like 3 generally bland posts like "bisu played a good game" about starcraft in their entire history
why would you visit this place to talk purely about us politics
On August 13 2012 00:40 throttled wrote: This thread has so many mornic comments in it it's impossible to read. Anyone who thinks this is somehow justified is severely deluded about the world and how it works.
Actually pretty sure you're the deluded one. Almost everywhere else other than Westernized 1st world countries where democracy is #1, countries keep tabs on their citizens all the time in some form or fashion. It's been this way for a long time now; before governments utilized religion in order to manipulate the masses and maintain an information network among the population. Now, it's just taking a different form. People need to wake up and smell the fresh coffee; this is not something that is new. Shit like this has been going on forever, and it will continue to go on because that is the way the world works.
The United States has been keeping tabs on its citizens for a very long time; it's just you and me don't know about it. It is the way the world works, and people getting upset about it isn't going to change anything. If you want to do something about it, then go rally up an army and try and put a stop to it. Otherwise deal with it, because it isn't going to change.
This is quite shocking and it is even more shocking that there are so many people, who do not care about it. Luckily there are still quite a few people posting interesting and insightful opinions. I find it also strange that almost no local (in that case: german) newspaper is reporting about this issue. Are there some reports about it in other countries?
On August 13 2012 01:34 CraZyWayne wrote: This is quite shocking and it is even more shocking that there are so many people, who do not care about it. Luckily there are still quite a few people posting interesting and insightful opions. I find it also strange that almost no local (in that case: german) newspaper is reporting about this issue. Are there some reports about it in other countries?
It's not shocking at all, because if you've studied governments and history in general, you'd actually find out that the government has utilized various methods to maintain control over information in order to keep the general population content. Whether it was through writing, religion, information based technology, etc. etc. etc. it's all the same shit. Those that "don't care" really don't care because neither you nor I can really make a difference because that's the way governments work, and it's been that way literally for thousands of years. Anyone that argues otherwise really hasn't even cracked opened a basic history book.
On August 13 2012 01:34 CraZyWayne wrote: This is quite shocking and it is even more shocking that there are so many people, who do not care about it. Luckily there are still quite a few people posting interesting and insightful opions. I find it also strange that almost no local (in that case: german) newspaper is reporting about this issue. Are there some reports about it in other countries?
It's not shocking at all, because if you've studied governments and history in general, you'd actually find out that the government has utilized various methods to maintain control over information in order to keep the general population content. Whether it was through writing, religion, information based technology, etc. etc. etc. it's all the same shit. Those that "don't care" really don't care because neither you nor I can really make a difference because that's the way governments work, and it's been that way literally for thousands of years. Anyone that argues otherwise really hasn't even cracked opened a basic history book.
Let me repeat your argument:
That is the way the government works and it has been like that for thousands of years and who cares, we can't do shit about it.
On August 11 2012 20:05 Absentia wrote:The passive reaction of some people in this thread is saddening. It's one thing to believe you're being watched and not feel bothered. To be shown, explicitly, that your freedom is being fundamentally undermined, without any consent whatsoever, and to still retain that passive acceptance? What's wrong with you?
The point is that we knew this would happen 10 years ago when we allowed the USA PATRIOT (Uniting and Strengthening America by Providing Appropriate Tools Required to Intercept and Obstruct Terrorism) Act to be signed. There was such a climate of fear about terrorism at the time that people didn't care that they gave away their constitutional rights.
On August 13 2012 01:34 CraZyWayne wrote: This is quite shocking and it is even more shocking that there are so many people, who do not care about it. Luckily there are still quite a few people posting interesting and insightful opions. I find it also strange that almost no local (in that case: german) newspaper is reporting about this issue. Are there some reports about it in other countries?
It's not shocking at all, because if you've studied governments and history in general, you'd actually find out that the government has utilized various methods to maintain control over information in order to keep the general population content. Whether it was through writing, religion, information based technology, etc. etc. etc. it's all the same shit. Those that "don't care" really don't care because neither you nor I can really make a difference because that's the way governments work, and it's been that way literally for thousands of years. Anyone that argues otherwise really hasn't even cracked opened a basic history book.
Let me repeat your argument:
That is the way the government works and it has been like that for thousands of years and who cares, we can't do shit about it.
NOW I get it! Thanks for this awesome post, mate!
Yeah it's quite something :/ Anyone who cracks a basic history book also knows that there haven't been very many planes in the past, that's how transportation works. We can't just expect to have planes today.
On August 13 2012 01:48 CraZyWayne wrote:Let me repeat your argument:
That is the way the government works and it has been like that for thousands of years and who cares, we can't do shit about it.
NOW I get it! Thanks for this awesome post, mate!
Pretty much. Unless you are in a position of power or have a rare moment of opportunity, you are insignificant and your opinion doesn't matter. Anyone who tells you otherwise is lying or deceiving themselves (there are a lot of people in the latter category who cling to "hope" over reality).
For every Martin Luther King, Abraham Lincoln, Adolf Hilter, etc, there are a million other people who tried to change the world and failed miserably, leaving no impact in other people's lives.
So for me, it is pointless trying to be the hero when all the odds are against you. You'd live a happier life if you ignored the issue and focused on something where there is a larger chance of success and you can actually make a meaningful difference. You'd make more of an impact as a teacher, firefighter, or even a financial advisor than as a failed political figure.
On August 13 2012 01:48 CraZyWayne wrote:Let me repeat your argument:
That is the way the government works and it has been like that for thousands of years and who cares, we can't do shit about it.
NOW I get it! Thanks for this awesome post, mate!
Pretty much. Unless you are in a position of power or have a rare moment of opportunity, you are insignificant and your opinion doesn't matter. Anyone who tells you otherwise is lying or deceiving themselves (there is a lot of people in the latter category who cling to "hope" over reality).
For every Martin Luther King, Abraham Lincoln, Adolf Hilter, etc, there are a million other people who tried to change the world and failed miserably, leaving no impact in other people's lives.
So for me, it is pointless trying to be the hero when all the odds are against you. You'd live a happier life if you ignored the issue and focused on something where there is a larger chance of success and you can actually make a meaningful difference. You'd make more of an impact as a teacher, firefighter, or even a financial advisor than as a failed political figure.
Women have rights today because they tried something.
You'd live a better life if you didn't bend over so easily and actually had principles.
Can we all leave the USSR and Nazi Germany out of this please, because if you all have read a history book as you say you have you would realize that the mass control and survalence came after they took over not before as is the case here.
On August 13 2012 01:34 CraZyWayne wrote: This is quite shocking and it is even more shocking that there are so many people, who do not care about it. Luckily there are still quite a few people posting interesting and insightful opions. I find it also strange that almost no local (in that case: german) newspaper is reporting about this issue. Are there some reports about it in other countries?
It's not shocking at all, because if you've studied governments and history in general, you'd actually find out that the government has utilized various methods to maintain control over information in order to keep the general population content. Whether it was through writing, religion, information based technology, etc. etc. etc. it's all the same shit. Those that "don't care" really don't care because neither you nor I can really make a difference because that's the way governments work, and it's been that way literally for thousands of years. Anyone that argues otherwise really hasn't even cracked opened a basic history book.
Let me repeat your argument:
That is the way the government works and it has been like that for thousands of years and who cares, we can't do shit about it.
NOW I get it! Thanks for this awesome post, mate!
You can't do shit about it because if you tried to you'd disrupt how governments work in general. Good luck trying to change something that has worked the way it has for literally thousands of years, especially when you're dealing with literally the most powerful people in the world. You're better off trying to get Catholicism and other religions like Islam, Judiasm, etc. banned for scientific reasons then attempting to try and disrupt the way governments maintain order and control over their general populace.
If a government falls, it's because it pissed off the general population and failed one of their basic necessities, not because they oppressed them through information control. As long as the every day American is fed, has a decent home, decent life style, they probably could give two shits about what the government does. It's when the government intrudes upon the lifestyle of your average citizen in some form or fashion when shit gets real. Until that point is reached (and it has not) then you can start your bitching.
On August 13 2012 02:26 ermogh wrote: Can we all leave the USSR and Nazi Germany out of this please, because if you all have read a history book as you say you have you would realize that the mass control and survalence came after they took over not before as is the case here.
If you read a history book you'd also know that governments and societies in general (especially during ancient times) utilized religion and writing in order to maintain control over the general population. This isn't something that is new by any stretch of the imagination. People tried to disrupt society's/the government's power by severing ties between Church and State, and yet they still yet it failed to do anything. The people in power merely shifted towards other forms of control, just less direct. Now they use information based technologies to do the same thing. *Gasp* the government is trying to keep and maintain order and control over the general population? So mind fucking blowing. The ancient Babylonians never did that! Neither did the Greeks, nor did the Romans! Oh shit..... wait..... they did.
A government must maintain careful control over information within their own society. Without control over that information, it just results in mass chaos. Whether or not they have "stepped over the boundary" is up to you to decide, but don't pretend that this is something that has magically appeared out of thin air.
On August 13 2012 01:48 CraZyWayne wrote:Let me repeat your argument:
That is the way the government works and it has been like that for thousands of years and who cares, we can't do shit about it.
NOW I get it! Thanks for this awesome post, mate!
Pretty much. Unless you are in a position of power or have a rare moment of opportunity, you are insignificant and your opinion doesn't matter. Anyone who tells you otherwise is lying or deceiving themselves (there is a lot of people in the latter category who cling to "hope" over reality).
For every Martin Luther King, Abraham Lincoln, Adolf Hilter, etc, there are a million other people who tried to change the world and failed miserably, leaving no impact in other people's lives.
So for me, it is pointless trying to be the hero when all the odds are against you. You'd live a happier life if you ignored the issue and focused on something where there is a larger chance of success and you can actually make a meaningful difference. You'd make more of an impact as a teacher, firefighter, or even a financial advisor than as a failed political figure.
Women have rights today because they tried something.
You'd live a better life if you didn't bend over so easily and actually had principles.
Women have rights because there was an actual precedent in ancient history where women were given certain rights. That was the whole basis of the argument. People in power believed that it was right to give women rights, because they felt they had a moral obligation to do so. Women contribute to society, so why are we not giving them the rights that everyone else feels that they deserve?
There is no basis for trying to disrupt a government's control over its general population as long as it provides the basic necessities of its citizens and doesn't step over the line (which is of course different from person to person, but if you piss off to many people shit happens). Want to know why? Because if you did that, every single fucking society on the planet would collapse in an instant. There is no "moral obligation" for the government or anyone else in power to stop trying to control information, to stop trying to ensure the security of its people, because it is actually their fucking moral obligation to protect us, from both foreign threats, and domestic threats, which also happens to include ourselves. Did they step over the line with this whole program? I don't know; I don't know enough to say that it has. Various other things could easily be abused such as CCTV, wire tapping, etc. and yet no one here is really bitching about that (and please, don't pretend that the Feds don't illegally wire tap or access video footage). All of a sudden people are all up in arms when the Feds could have the "potential" to spy on us, when they could have been doing it since the fucking 70s and 80s when they started shooting up satellites by the dozens into the skies.
People not caring is so sad... Just because it isn't anything "new" (Sure is, yeah the concept exists for as long as societies exist but obviously not in this form.) they look the other way and dont care. I don't understand how you can't see this as a big deal. How can you feel safe under this kind of surveillance by a government thats shown to be capable of doing insane things.
What do they actualy do with the infomation? Am I just to dumb to find it or isnt this even mentioned in the starting post?
Right know it's seems to me that some people are overreacting, this is no nazi or 1984 shit, it's pretty obv that if there are cameras then they are going to fucking use them after paying a shitload of $$ to install. please explain to me if i'm totaly wrong with this
On August 13 2012 03:59 ZaaaaaM wrote: People not caring is so sad... Just because it isn't anything "new" (Sure is, yeah the concept exists for as long as societies exist but obviously not in this form.) they look the other way and dont care. I don't understand how you can't see this as a big deal. How can you feel safe under this kind of surveillance by a government thats shown to be capable of doing insane things.
Because pretending that the government never had this type of power before is just laughable at best. It was a different form back in the day, and arguably much stronger. The ability to manipulate people through their belief system rather than through information is a hell of a lot more potent; look at various cults across the world and you'll see exactly what I mean. And yet the people in power felt it was necessary back then because if they didn't do this, then the general population (i.e. not you or me, but random joe schmo who hasn't finished a university degree) would likely do pretty dumb shit like kill each other, steal, etc.
Not to mention, I don't see the big hoopalah when the government has had the power to illegally wire tap, access CCTV, access information on your computer, etc. blah blah blah with ease. And yet no one here is really complaining about the possibility of that. When people are like "oh no, a legally sanctioned security entity that we can keep tabs on" suddenly shows up, people get into a huge hoopa lah about it for no apparent reason.
People on TL like to overreact to literally nothing. At all. It's a huge reason why I've become severely disappointed with it over various years, because it's pretty obvious there's no where near enough evidence within this "leak" to condemn the United States government at all. What are they doing with the information? How are they getting it? Are they breaking into homes and installing cameras without anyone knowing? Are they tapping into personal computers without permission? No one knows. No one has any proof. And yet everyone is like "HOLY FUCK MOTHER OF GOD IT'S 1984 EVERYBODY RISE UP IN ARMS!"
I'm not saying this is right or wrong; I'm merely pointing out that 1) This isn't something that is new; societies control their general population through various means necessary in order to ensure the survival of its own people, and its own existence as a society and 2) There is nowhere near enough evidence to really say if this is a bad thing or not. All we know is that there is some sort of entity out there that collects information that is legally sanctioned by the United States government. Whether or not they are collecting the data illegally or in a "morally" wrong way remains to be seen.
By the way with that post of mine i was not saying that governments had never used other ways of controlling people I was simply stating that you can not say that this leak means that the US will turn into Nazi Germany or the USSR.
On August 13 2012 04:12 ermogh wrote: @superstartran
By the way with that post of mine i was not saying that governments had never used other ways of controlling people I was simply stating that you can not say that this leak means that the US will turn into Nazi Germany or the USSR.
You're right, especially when the fucking system was advertised all over the place. How people are making a huge deal about this is so hilarious.
It's amazing that people will go to any lengths to make it look like some "secretive" government project when THE FUCKING PRODUCT WAS ADVERTISED EVERYWHERE.
On August 13 2012 03:59 ZaaaaaM wrote: People not caring is so sad... Just because it isn't anything "new" (Sure is, yeah the concept exists for as long as societies exist but obviously not in this form.) they look the other way and dont care. I don't understand how you can't see this as a big deal. How can you feel safe under this kind of surveillance by a government thats shown to be capable of doing insane things.
Because pretending that the government never had this type of power before is just laughable at best. (...) Whether or not they are collecting the data illegally or in a "morally" wrong way remains to be seen.
So it isn't new and and it has been worse at points in history... These aren't arguments why its not a bad thing.. Or are you actually just mentioning that you don't like it that people call it new or don't point out its not as bad as it was? If so, way to miss the point.
On August 13 2012 03:59 ZaaaaaM wrote: People not caring is so sad... Just because it isn't anything "new" (Sure is, yeah the concept exists for as long as societies exist but obviously not in this form.) they look the other way and dont care. I don't understand how you can't see this as a big deal. How can you feel safe under this kind of surveillance by a government thats shown to be capable of doing insane things.
Because pretending that the government never had this type of power before is just laughable at best. (...) Whether or not they are collecting the data illegally or in a "morally" wrong way remains to be seen.
So it isn't new and and it has been worse at points in history... These aren't arguments why its not a bad thing.. Or are you actually just mentioning that you don't like it that people call it new or don't point out its not as bad as it was? If so, way to miss the point.
Hello; did you just miss the whole TrapWire is not some secretive project that was developed under the shroud without the consent of the people? Way to cherrypick and strawman all at the same time.
On August 13 2012 03:59 ZaaaaaM wrote: People not caring is so sad... Just because it isn't anything "new" (Sure is, yeah the concept exists for as long as societies exist but obviously not in this form.) they look the other way and dont care. I don't understand how you can't see this as a big deal. How can you feel safe under this kind of surveillance by a government thats shown to be capable of doing insane things.
Because pretending that the government never had this type of power before is just laughable at best. (...) Whether or not they are collecting the data illegally or in a "morally" wrong way remains to be seen.
So it isn't new and and it has been worse at points in history... These aren't arguments why its not a bad thing.. Or are you actually just mentioning that you don't like it that people call it new or don't point out its not as bad as it was? If so, way to miss the point.
Hello; did you just miss the whole TrapWire is not some secretive project that was developed under the shroud without the consent of the people? Way to cherrypick and strawman all at the same time.
What does it matter if its done in secret or not? Doesn't change what its actually about at all. All you're talking about is how its not secret etc. Whatever bro, whatever. America publicly speaks about going to the middle-east. Destroy a country for profit, cover it up by saying its a necessity to protect this society: a society thats willing to go to war to protect a society thats willing to go to war. Why would they even do it secretly, its so much easier to scare people and have them want more protection.. Unfortunately people do not realise it comes at a cost; privacy and freedom.
On August 13 2012 04:03 Snaap wrote: What do they actualy do with the infomation? Am I just to dumb to find it or isnt this even mentioned in the starting post?
Right know it's seems to me that some people are overreacting, this is no nazi or 1984 shit, it's pretty obv that if there are cameras then they are going to fucking use them after paying a shitload of $$ to install. please explain to me if i'm totaly wrong with this
Its not what they are doing now, its what they are preparing for. Hypothetically speaking if a police state breaks out, a global surveillance system would prevent any and all organizations working to counteract the police state etc.. They could prevent any unwanted behavior before it even starts, good or bad.
Edit: Is anyone else having troubles connecting to wikileaks? Chrome tells me " Redirecting you to http://wikileaks.org/ " when i try to visit the site, but the redirect doesn't work.
1984, Fahrenheit 451, V for Vendetta, and im sure theres many more
but basically this is what it will eventually come to. The Government will try and protect their citizens but by doing so they will infringe upon our rights
It is funny how some users blame people for having critical thoughts about this system. It is just about the idea to be a responsible citizen. As far as i read nobody went totally crazy, people are only stating that this could be misused and discussing about the trade of privacy/freedom for security. I don't even understand the sense in making a statement like "this is they way it has been for thousands of years" or "this is only a gaming website" lol. This topic is just a normal topic in the "general discussion" section, nobody goes nuts, why shouldn't people exchange their opinions, thoughts and views about it? What else is the purpose of a forum?
On August 13 2012 05:10 AllHailTheDead wrote: 1984, Fahrenheit 451, V for Vendetta, and im sure theres many more
but basically this is what it will eventually come to. The Government will try and protect their citizens but by doing so they will infringe upon our rights
who knows to what extend it could lead too
Just know that the government isn't that protective of their citizens... I think its kind of naive to think so.
What's very scary about this is the potential for a government to achieve absolute domination over it's population. Technology has reached the point where a small amount of people can actively monitor every aspect of each individuals life in a population of millions or even hundreds of millions of people. How would you stop a government that wants to turn you into a prisoner in your own life, when it is so easy for them to single out and silence anyone they choose? If you do believe the government has only the best of intentions, are you just as certain about the next generations leaders, or that their heirs will be so benevolent?
I'm not okay with our children inheriting a world where they can be numbered, monitored, and singled out. A world where any movement to drive change or reform can be dissolved or marginalized in it's infancy.
Stopping a Federal Juggernaut that has the ability to dominate and oppress the population is the reason the founding fathers wrote the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution. If they were alive today I'm sure they'd be doing the same thing they did in their time, organizing a revolt. The more the U.S. Government breaks it's own laws, the more they delegitimize their own rule. The wording of the law is quite clear "congress shall pass no law" which means they never have had lawful authority to override the constitution, or to authorize any one else to. This has all been done "unlawfully".
On August 11 2012 19:05 K_Dilkington wrote: Juding from the comments from the Americans in this thread, you deserve everything that is coming for you. Enjoy the inevitable police state that will make sure that you can't even write freely on this forum anymore.
Yeah, im surprised, too, at how many people don't see this as bad. I thought TL had a good ratio of people who would understand the consequences this first steps imply.
being german is an advantage on this one wonder how the current parties in power managed to find useful data to confort their position since it's the 1st thing the machavelians inside the party would do.
On August 13 2012 06:01 Spec wrote: good to know people care about me and wonders where I am going today.
better not apply as a sensible public servant post... that concerns tons of people who have ambition both in the private and public sector...
I just, as I said previously don't really get how people don't get up in arms about this but (excuse the pun), react very negatively whenever talk of the government regulating firearms comes up. Or healthcare, or anything on that front. That you don't trust government to regulate or control these aspects of your lives, but are happy to have this kind of surveillance network in place.
On August 13 2012 05:10 AllHailTheDead wrote: 1984, Fahrenheit 451, V for Vendetta, and im sure theres many more
but basically this is what it will eventually come to. The Government will try and protect their citizens but by doing so they will infringe upon our rights
who knows to what extend it could lead too
This has little to do with a government trying to protect its people. It's got everything to do with the powers that be wanting to remain the powers that be.
To quote V for Vendetta: "People should not be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people." At the moment, the amount of possible surveillance our governments have over their citizens is scary.
I do agree that if things keep going like this (liberties repressed or even removed in the name of "safety"; economic downturn; gap between the rich and the poor that keeps on widening), there will be a lot of public uproar. Revolution? Maybe. History has shown, however, that a lot of shit needs to go down during a relatively long time span before people on the streets are actually willing to go that far. Look at Greece. It's gone from first world country to third world country in a matter of years, and apart from heavy protesting and a lot of strikes, it doesn't seem that people are about to take rights into their own hands.
One thing is certain though, the decade 2010-2020 is going to be one hell of an interesting one.
Wikileaks has been down for a couple of days already due to the largest DDOS attack (10/gbps) that they have faced to date. They have even tried to move behind different cloud services to no avail.
Either the big dogs finally figured out a way to DDOS them into the ground, OR maybe they finally released something that could interfere on a large enough scale to merit the reboot of the previously called off 1 million dollar a month attack that the u.s government was caught funding - in this same release.
I wonder if these new 'super' weaponized viruses that have spread across the world have created the botnet that is currently being wielded.
Regardless, someone does not like wikileaks, and it is very strange timing that when these global intel files started getting exposure, a strong arm attack occurs.
On August 13 2012 04:12 ermogh wrote: @superstartran
By the way with that post of mine i was not saying that governments had never used other ways of controlling people I was simply stating that you can not say that this leak means that the US will turn into Nazi Germany or the USSR.
You're right, especially when the fucking system was advertised all over the place. How people are making a huge deal about this is so hilarious.
It's amazing that people will go to any lengths to make it look like some "secretive" government project when THE FUCKING PRODUCT WAS ADVERTISED EVERYWHERE.
Dear god.
The advertising, while helpful in showing what trapwires owners want others to believe it is, Is irrelevant in the sense that it says nothing about what trapwire actually does. Being a private company, abraxas has none of the moral or legal restrictions or transparency and accountability requirements placed on government. They are by no means limiting their services to anti terrorism and security as their advertisements purport.
Selling information about citizens to corporations, such as tracking and monitoring activists, using information those citizens paid for with the expectation that they were to be used for security, is one such ethically dubious behavior that abraxas is already engaging in. Citizens being forced to pay for a massive surveillance network to sell information about them to corporations, is a system which few of those citizens would approve of, and in a democratic society, in spite of whatever you say, massively unpopular systems which effect the entire voting body tend to be dismantled. Red scare was eventually defused, cia had to abandon abduction and torture of us citizens. Your references to historicity tend to underestimate the trend of unpopular and unethical domestic programs being shut down.
Furthermore, you state that information control is necessary for a functioning government. I agree. I think many things are necessary for a functioning government, for example, law enforcement. However I do not believe that police officers should work for a private contractor and give information and records from interviews of citizens and their vehicular cameras to Dow and coca cola for money. In fact there are laws in place to prevent them from disclosing such info. What your analysis fails to capture is the notion that surveillance can be done in a not totally corrupt fashion. The EU proposal for a surveillance network contains stronger ethical and human rights protections than the american one, and yet somehow their society has yet to collapse.
I do not understand your defense of the level of corporatization and spreading of not security related information, unethically, to the highest bidder, using systems that a democratic populace paid for with no expectation that it would be put to such nefarious purposes. If anything, you should look to the example provided by the citizens of the EU who have gained greater expectation of ethical behavior by their government and security networks, without the catastrophic governmental collapse which you have made reference to.
I think we underestimated the horrible things a person could do. Lets imagine how that was changed in time?
At first people could only stab each other. Then they started to be able to blow each other up. And shoot each other as well. And population was so small at that time that minimal effort was needed to get the criminals/terrorists/evil doers.
But now, a single person can steal biological weapon, a group of terrorists can get nuclear weapon, there are almost no limits to how horrible crime can be and population is so huge that how in the world can you react/stop that crime in time? We need some kind of global/continental crime prevention system to prevent horrible things from happening. I just don't understand why you people feel so special that anyone would care about your boring lives? Sometimes you just think about yourself too much. It all has to be about you you you. We live in such free world that rednecks will blow government up for sure if they over do it with tracking our personal lives..
Sorry, but I don't get how people can evaluate terrorism as huge issue. I would say its statistically irrelevant. Every 3 seconds someone dies cause of hunger. So many people die cause of cancer, traffic accidents... If every year there would be an 11. september, it would still be a very minor issue. If you want to save peoples lifes, help people in countries to produce food, invest in science to defeat illness. If you want to lower criminal rate then fight against social injustice. A normal person having everything they need to live a carefree life won't kill someone just for no reason. And if someone is crazy and decides he uses his kitchen knife to kill random people there is nothing you could ever do about that. Now the bad thing about surveillance is that power in the hands of a few people has a very high chance to be abused. Also I got the impression that our society promotes immoral persons to high ranked jobs. I know 3 companies at marketing level and in each of them lying was the common case. If I meet a person at lets say a club and he says something I normally expect them to tell the truth. If you talk with a manager you should question every sentence he says. Lying just to get an advantage is just common practice.
On August 13 2012 21:13 M4nkind wrote: I think we underestimated the horrible things a person could do. Lets imagine how that was changed in time?
At first people could only stab each other. Then they started to be able to blow each other up. And shoot each other as well. And population was so small at that time that minimal effort was needed to get the criminals/terrorists/evil doers.
But now, a single person can steal biological weapon, a group of terrorists can get nuclear weapon, there are almost no limits to how horrible crime can be and population is so huge that how in the world can you react/stop that crime in time? We need some kind of global/continental crime prevention system to prevent horrible things from happening. I just don't understand why you people feel so special that anyone would care about your boring lives? Sometimes you just think about yourself too much. It all has to be about you you you. We live in such free world that rednecks will blow government up for sure if they over do it with tracking our personal lives..
If the US would adopt a less imperialistic foreign policy then they wouldn't have to bother with as many people trying to ruin their day. I agree that there has to be some form of crime prevention system. However, if the government chooses to beef up that system instead of stopping to add fuel to the fire it says a lot about their intentions.
On August 13 2012 21:13 M4nkind wrote: I think we underestimated the horrible things a person could do. Lets imagine how that was changed in time?
At first people could only stab each other. Then they started to be able to blow each other up. And shoot each other as well. And population was so small at that time that minimal effort was needed to get the criminals/terrorists/evil doers.
But now, a single person can steal biological weapon, a group of terrorists can get nuclear weapon, there are almost no limits to how horrible crime can be and population is so huge that how in the world can you react/stop that crime in time? We need some kind of global/continental crime prevention system to prevent horrible things from happening. I just don't understand why you people feel so special that anyone would care about your boring lives? Sometimes you just think about yourself too much. It all has to be about you you you. We live in such free world that rednecks will blow government up for sure if they over do it with tracking our personal lives..
If the US would adopt a less imperialistic foreign policy then they wouldn't have to bother with as many people trying to ruin their day. I agree that there has to be some form of crime prevention system. However, if the government chooses to beef up that system instead of stopping to add fuel to the fire it says a lot about their intentions.
The threats to America and the attacks were not the result of their foreign policy. This myth has been propegated often enough and simply has no basis in reality.
Not all people are reactionairy, other human beings outside of white Americans have agency as well, and a good number of them is agressively out to hurt them.
On August 13 2012 21:13 M4nkind wrote: I think we underestimated the horrible things a person could do. Lets imagine how that was changed in time?
At first people could only stab each other. Then they started to be able to blow each other up. And shoot each other as well. And population was so small at that time that minimal effort was needed to get the criminals/terrorists/evil doers.
But now, a single person can steal biological weapon, a group of terrorists can get nuclear weapon, there are almost no limits to how horrible crime can be and population is so huge that how in the world can you react/stop that crime in time? We need some kind of global/continental crime prevention system to prevent horrible things from happening. I just don't understand why you people feel so special that anyone would care about your boring lives? Sometimes you just think about yourself too much. It all has to be about you you you. We live in such free world that rednecks will blow government up for sure if they over do it with tracking our personal lives..
Maybe not have so many nukes and biological warfare weapons then, maybe? No? I mean, everyone knows that mankind should never, under any circumstance use such weapons again on other humans.
On August 13 2012 21:13 M4nkind wrote: I think we underestimated the horrible things a person could do. Lets imagine how that was changed in time?
At first people could only stab each other. Then they started to be able to blow each other up. And shoot each other as well. And population was so small at that time that minimal effort was needed to get the criminals/terrorists/evil doers.
But now, a single person can steal biological weapon, a group of terrorists can get nuclear weapon, there are almost no limits to how horrible crime can be and population is so huge that how in the world can you react/stop that crime in time? We need some kind of global/continental crime prevention system to prevent horrible things from happening. I just don't understand why you people feel so special that anyone would care about your boring lives? Sometimes you just think about yourself too much. It all has to be about you you you. We live in such free world that rednecks will blow government up for sure if they over do it with tracking our personal lives..
If the US would adopt a less imperialistic foreign policy then they wouldn't have to bother with as many people trying to ruin their day. I agree that there has to be some form of crime prevention system. However, if the government chooses to beef up that system instead of stopping to add fuel to the fire it says a lot about their intentions.
The threats to America and the attacks were not the result of their foreign policy. This myth has been propegated often enough and simply has no basis in reality.
Not all people are reactionairy, other human beings outside of white Americans have agency as well, and a good number of them is agressively out to hurt them.
Yeah the Muslims (not saying ALL of them...but the contested middle-eastern ones) don't hate us because we do anything and everything for Israel...nope...
On August 13 2012 21:13 M4nkind wrote: I think we underestimated the horrible things a person could do. Lets imagine how that was changed in time?
At first people could only stab each other. Then they started to be able to blow each other up. And shoot each other as well. And population was so small at that time that minimal effort was needed to get the criminals/terrorists/evil doers.
But now, a single person can steal biological weapon, a group of terrorists can get nuclear weapon, there are almost no limits to how horrible crime can be and population is so huge that how in the world can you react/stop that crime in time? We need some kind of global/continental crime prevention system to prevent horrible things from happening. I just don't understand why you people feel so special that anyone would care about your boring lives? Sometimes you just think about yourself too much. It all has to be about you you you. We live in such free world that rednecks will blow government up for sure if they over do it with tracking our personal lives..
If the US would adopt a less imperialistic foreign policy then they wouldn't have to bother with as many people trying to ruin their day. I agree that there has to be some form of crime prevention system. However, if the government chooses to beef up that system instead of stopping to add fuel to the fire it says a lot about their intentions.
The threats to America and the attacks were not the result of their foreign policy. This myth has been propegated often enough and simply has no basis in reality.
Not all people are reactionairy, other human beings outside of white Americans have agency as well, and a good number of them is agressively out to hurt them.
Yeah the Muslims (not saying ALL of them...but the contested middle-eastern ones) don't hate us because we do anything and everything for Israel...nope...
Oke, so they threaten us, they attack us.
The first thing we need to sacrifice to them is the nation of Israel. Let's give it up, let them have it, let them kill everyone there. A small price, surely?
But the terrorist demands don't stop there, so what else did we do that was so atrocious that we deserved to be attacked?
The country of East Timor, over 90% christian, was invaded by Indonesia, who committed what can be argued was a genocide.
When after 25 years the occupation came to an end, through no small part of UN and US pressure, we went too far for Al-Qaeda.
For not allowing Indonesia to occupy East Timor and establish Islamic rule, and for not allowing it to finish the genocide, we went too far.
So, we should have ignored the suffering of the people. Let Indonesia commit a complete ethnic cleansing, all because the terrorists demand it. But what matters it? We give up the Jews, we give up the Christians, offer them all on the altar of Islamic terrorism.
What else have we done that was too insulting for them to tolerate? The establishment of embassies. As long as we maintain any influence, any relationship with the muslim world, we will be subject to attacks. If we try to let our culture seep into theirs (be it music, movies, books, paintings, etc), they will attack us.
Read their list of demands, then consider just how much and how far you are willing to sell everyone down the road, how many millions you consider expendable for the grinding wheel.
Don't expect there to be peace though. They might leave us alone, but Islamic terrorism is distinctly imperialistic, its goal, after all, is the establishment of an Islamic caliphate.
People need to stop saying that these terrorists don't mean what they say. You can't negotiate with agressive totalitarian systems. Have we learned nothing from selling Czechoslovakia down the road? They will take and take.
For all the things that Bush got wrong, he managed to get that right. You don't negotiatie with terrorists.
On August 13 2012 21:13 M4nkind wrote: I think we underestimated the horrible things a person could do. Lets imagine how that was changed in time?
At first people could only stab each other. Then they started to be able to blow each other up. And shoot each other as well. And population was so small at that time that minimal effort was needed to get the criminals/terrorists/evil doers.
But now, a single person can steal biological weapon, a group of terrorists can get nuclear weapon, there are almost no limits to how horrible crime can be and population is so huge that how in the world can you react/stop that crime in time? We need some kind of global/continental crime prevention system to prevent horrible things from happening. I just don't understand why you people feel so special that anyone would care about your boring lives? Sometimes you just think about yourself too much. It all has to be about you you you. We live in such free world that rednecks will blow government up for sure if they over do it with tracking our personal lives..
If the US would adopt a less imperialistic foreign policy then they wouldn't have to bother with as many people trying to ruin their day. I agree that there has to be some form of crime prevention system. However, if the government chooses to beef up that system instead of stopping to add fuel to the fire it says a lot about their intentions.
The threats to America and the attacks were not the result of their foreign policy. This myth has been propegated often enough and simply has no basis in reality.
Not all people are reactionairy, other human beings outside of white Americans have agency as well, and a good number of them is agressively out to hurt them.
Yeah the Muslims (not saying ALL of them...but the contested middle-eastern ones) don't hate us because we do anything and everything for Israel...nope...
Oke, so they threaten us, they attack us.
The first thing we need to sacrifice to them is the nation of Israel. Let's give it up, let them have it, let them kill everyone there. A small price, surely?
But the terrorist demands don't stop there, so what else did we do that was so atrocious that we deserved to be attacked?
The country of East Timor, over 90% christian, was invaded by Indonesia, who committed what can be argued was a genocide.
When after 25 years the occupation came to an end, through no small part of UN and US pressure, we went too far for Al-Qaeda.
For not allowing Indonesia to occupy East Timor and establish Islamic rule, and for not allowing it to finish the genocide, we went too far.
So, we should have ignored the suffering of the people. Let Indonesia commit a complete ethnic cleansing, all because the terrorists demand it. But what matters it? We give up the Jews, we give up the Christians, offer them all on the altar of Islamic terrorism.
What else have we done that was too insulting for them to tolerate? The establishment of embassies. As long as we maintain any influence, any relationship with the muslim world, we will be subject to attacks. If we try to let our culture seep into theirs (be it music, movies, books, paintings, etc), they will attack us.
Read their list of demands, then consider just how much and how far you are willing to sell everyone down the road, how many millions you consider expendable for the grinding wheel.
Don't expect there to be peace though. They might leave us alone, but Islamic terrorism is distinctly imperialistic, its goal, after all, is the establishment of an Islamic caliphate.
People need to stop saying that these terrorists don't mean what they say. You can't negotiate with agressive totalitarian systems. Have we learned nothing from selling Czechoslovakia down the road? They will take and take.
For all the things that Bush got wrong, he managed to get that right. You don't negotiatie with terrorists.
Perhaps you could give your thoughts on a few of these documents that show a consistent US policy (five administrations) of supporting the invasion of east Timor by indonesia, which only ended during the Clinton presidency.
Also I'd like your opinion on the high rate of western and particularly US funded and supported terrorism and whether such terrorism should be supported in the future or abandoned. Surely terrorism is not wrong only when carried out by anti US forces?
Let me just say that I do not approve of counterterrorism being used as an excuse to hand over the security apparatus of the state to corporations and intelligence agencies, when law enforcement and the judiciary seem a more fitting choice for running domestic surveillance.
This sounds more like a conspiracy thread than actual big news. I'm not doing anything I need to hide anyways so if the gov wants to take a few pics of my butt when I get outta the shower then so be it. If it helps catch some a-hole making bombs or whatever in his house then its fine IMO.
Theres a lot of "i don't care if they watch me" with different variations. This has been pointed out several times, so i thought i'd put a little spin on it. Fine, you dont care if they watch you through your camera in your home, or listen in to you via your cellphones or your microphones or your dvd players and so on..
Fine, i get that... But, remember, they also watch your baby sister/brother, or your parent, or your friends. Right now theres a middle aged guy or woman sifting trough data with video links and soundbites of your dear dear family members doing things in front of their computor that they really wouldn't like anyone to know about, and ill let your imagination fill out the blanks. This IS an invasion of privacy, if not on you, then on your kin. Let that think through your brains next time you dont value your own privacy.
***“Items of interest will be located, identified, monitored, and remotely controlled through technologies such as radio-frequency identification, sensor networks, tiny embedded servers, and energy harvesters — all connected to the next-generation internet using abundant, low-cost, and high-power computing,” Petraeus said, “the latter now going to cloud computing, in many areas greater and greater supercomputing, and, ultimately, heading to quantum computing.”***
Its an interesting thing reading reactions to this. On one hand it isn't all bad for some people to say "so what?" if you aren't doing anything illegal then who cares if some unknown anonymous person is going through some data on you? If you have secrets or w/e you don't want revealed it won't be. Hell no one will likely see 99% of this data anyway because it won't be flagged as worth looking at. Even if you have shit you don't want anyone to know about who cares if some tech guy sees it? He has probably seen it 1000x already and you really only care about keeping secrets from people that have meaning to you. Not some random guy who will probably forget what he knows about you in a little bit because he has moved on to the next thing.
Now that ^ is in an "ideal" way that this system would work. The problem with this system is that inevitably people suck and it will be abused in some way and that this system allows for a shit ton of abuse. It just gives so much power of the government over the people and with the way governments are do you really want to trust them to not abuse it? Its true that statistically the average person would never be bothered by this ever even if it was abused because they are simply not important enough. But what about political opponents? Or rivals in the corporation world? Politics and business are already dirty but adding this would give the entrenched powers that be all that much more ammunition.
On August 14 2012 04:42 BillClinton wrote: Im not surprised but people need to recognize its importance and seriousness, can we still say we live in a Democracy? Is this the way we wanna go?
What's funny is the majority of people probably feel that "they have nothing to hide" and don't mind being spied on in all their dealings.
EDIT: I'm beginning to wonder if blackmail is part of this agency's business model.
Perhaps you could give your thoughts on a few of these documents that show a consistent US policy (five administrations) of supporting the invasion of east Timor by indonesia, which only ended during the Clinton presidency.
Yes, and that was the wrong thing to do.
Then, when America went into the right direction, Al-Qaeda claimed it as one of the most important motivations for their existence.
Backing genocide is but one thing that the west will have to do in order to 'please' Islamic terrorists. The question is, are the appeasers ready to surrender that much?
Saying that America's foreign policy is to blame is a cop-out when you look at what these terrorists demand. Leaving other countries alone is going to mean watching genocides play out. This high and mighty attitude that America needs to "mind its own business," means standing by and watching evil play out.
When even something like having diplomatic relations with a nation is considered an invasion of the middle-east, you need to be intellectually honest and admit that the price to pay is a great deal higher than America just "minding its own business."
Also I'd like your opinion on the high rate of western and particularly US funded and supported terrorism and whether such terrorism should be supported in the future or abandoned. Surely terrorism is not wrong only when carried out by anti US forces?
Let me just say that I do not approve of counterterrorism being used as an excuse to hand over the security apparatus of the state to corporations and intelligence agencies, when law enforcement and the judiciary seem a more fitting choice for running domestic surveillance.
This is where you run into the problem of terrorism being ill-defined, allowing people to claim literally anything as being a terrorist act.
It kind of like how some people believe that Americans are literally slaves, because they have to work to earn their money. Is that a correct usage of the word slave? Not exactly, but the word is so broad that it is almost meaningless.
The same goes for America and terrorism. By its own definition, America does not engage in terrorism. By the definition of a tinfoil person, they support all the terrorism in the world.
Getting into that is one giant semantic clusterfuck. I do not nearly hate myself enough to subject myself to the tortureous process that is a debate about semantics.
On August 14 2012 04:42 BillClinton wrote: Im not surprised but people need to recognize its importance and seriousness, can we still say we live in a Democracy? Is this the way we wanna go?
WE DON'T LIVE IN A DEMOCRACY! The US has NEVER been a democracy!
you forget that terrorists have their own motives, sometimes (not always) terrorists come from oppressed and misunderstood people . If democracy was true, these people would have their place in the world. Some countries that get attacked from terrorists pay in blood of common folk for mistakes of their greedy governments. Many terrorists are not mad idiots they are sad people that see no other choice to achieve their goals. The truth is this all freedom turned world in the fucking mess. And we need some control over the situation even if means for it may have some negative side effects (such as abusion for personal needs). Don't you feel that world is becoming big mess the further we go? I believe that implementing such silly systems will help for us not to go into chaos.
On August 14 2012 04:42 BillClinton wrote: Im not surprised but people need to recognize its importance and seriousness, can we still say we live in a Democracy? Is this the way we wanna go?
WE DON'T LIVE IN A DEMOCRACY! The US has NEVER been a democracy!
It is and has always been. Your anger doesn't change facts, no matter how hard you try.
The more power you give to the government the more potential there is for abuse. A system that tries to recreate the "total information awareness" program from the Bush years is going to give a lot of knowledge and therefore power to those who control the system. The question is, do we really need this? Is the threat from terrorism, or even crime, so high that we need to be aware of what everyone is doing, or at least have the potential for it - when the potential for abuse is so high? Would it even be worth it if it solves one problem just to create a much broader, deeper problem of systemic abuse?
I really don't think so. People keep thinking that nothing bad will happen when you give the government more power. But I think if they were being honest they would have to say they didn't know. Unless there are terrorists with portable nuclear bombs targeting American cities (or Canadian in my case), I wouldn't dream of giving anyone this much power (even then, I'm not sure it would be worth it).
The government isn't filled with magic agencies that only do good and staff people who love serving the public interest. It has normal people like every other job, and in many cases they have proven to be quite dumb or somewhat insane. Would you feel comfortable giving your neighbor access to all your e-mails, and allow him to take video footage of you wherever you go?
Cops have been corrupted, and you almost regularly hear a news story about how they abuse their authority and power in various ways, at worst by beating people to death or imprisoning people without any good reason (G20 summit protests in Toronto). Its just dumb to think that a group of people appointed by a committee are going to be immune to these pressures, much less that all of the companies that apparently have access to this data won't use it in ways that you will never hear about on the nightly news.
Come on people, at least have a *little* bit of skepticism about your government.
On August 13 2012 23:36 Meril wrote: Sorry, but I don't get how people can evaluate terrorism as huge issue. I would say its statistically irrelevant. Every 3 seconds someone dies cause of hunger. So many people die cause of cancer, traffic accidents... If every year there would be an 11. september, it would still be a very minor issue. If you want to save peoples lifes, help people in countries to produce food, invest in science to defeat illness. If you want to lower criminal rate then fight against social injustice. A normal person having everything they need to live a carefree life won't kill someone just for no reason. And if someone is crazy and decides he uses his kitchen knife to kill random people there is nothing you could ever do about that. Now the bad thing about surveillance is that power in the hands of a few people has a very high chance to be abused. Also I got the impression that our society promotes immoral persons to high ranked jobs. I know 3 companies at marketing level and in each of them lying was the common case. If I meet a person at lets say a club and he says something I normally expect them to tell the truth. If you talk with a manager you should question every sentence he says. Lying just to get an advantage is just common practice.
Exactly how I feel, I mean it's more dangerous driving to work everyday than any terrorist and people say "but terrorists are random, you could be at the mall and boom" and I go "that's all great, but any day on the highway which is a single lane for a few miles where I live, someone could spill coffee on there lap and boom head one collision and I'm dead."
It's just exhausting hearing all of these cowards cry about terrorism and use it as an excuse to lose freedom for security... If you ask me the terrorists have long won because they've not only multiplied by immense numbers since the invasion of the middle east, but they've added fear and restricted peoples rights because of it.
On August 14 2012 04:42 BillClinton wrote: Im not surprised but people need to recognize its importance and seriousness, can we still say we live in a Democracy? Is this the way we wanna go?
WE DON'T LIVE IN A DEMOCRACY! The US has NEVER been a democracy!
It is and has always been. Your anger doesn't change facts, no matter how hard you try.
On August 14 2012 04:42 BillClinton wrote: Im not surprised but people need to recognize its importance and seriousness, can we still say we live in a Democracy? Is this the way we wanna go?
WE DON'T LIVE IN A DEMOCRACY! The US has NEVER been a democracy!
It is and has always been. Your anger doesn't change facts, no matter how hard you try.
On August 14 2012 04:42 BillClinton wrote: Im not surprised but people need to recognize its importance and seriousness, can we still say we live in a Democracy? Is this the way we wanna go?
WE DON'T LIVE IN A DEMOCRACY! The US has NEVER been a democracy!
It is and has always been. Your anger doesn't change facts, no matter how hard you try.
Isn't the US a Republic?
Sure, they're not mutually exclusive :O
To clarify, a Republic is a representative democracy: it most certainly qualifies as a form of democracy.
On August 14 2012 04:42 BillClinton wrote: Im not surprised but people need to recognize its importance and seriousness, can we still say we live in a Democracy? Is this the way we wanna go?
WE DON'T LIVE IN A DEMOCRACY! The US has NEVER been a democracy!
It is and has always been. Your anger doesn't change facts, no matter how hard you try.
Isn't the US a Republic?
Sure, they're not mutually exclusive :O
To clarify, a Republic is a representative democracy: it most certainly qualifies as a form of democracy.
Perhaps you could give your thoughts on a few of these documents that show a consistent US policy (five administrations) of supporting the invasion of east Timor by indonesia, which only ended during the Clinton presidency.
Yes, and that was the wrong thing to do.
Then, when America went into the right direction, Al-Qaeda claimed it as one of the most important motivations for their existence.
Backing genocide is but one thing that the west will have to do in order to 'please' Islamic terrorists. The question is, are the appeasers ready to surrender that much?
Saying that America's foreign policy is to blame is a cop-out when you look at what these terrorists demand. Leaving other countries alone is going to mean watching genocides play out. This high and mighty attitude that America needs to "mind its own business," means standing by and watching evil play out.
When even something like having diplomatic relations with a nation is considered an invasion of the middle-east, you need to be intellectually honest and admit that the price to pay is a great deal higher than America just "minding its own business."
Also I'd like your opinion on the high rate of western and particularly US funded and supported terrorism and whether such terrorism should be supported in the future or abandoned. Surely terrorism is not wrong only when carried out by anti US forces?
Let me just say that I do not approve of counterterrorism being used as an excuse to hand over the security apparatus of the state to corporations and intelligence agencies, when law enforcement and the judiciary seem a more fitting choice for running domestic surveillance.
This is where you run into the problem of terrorism being ill-defined, allowing people to claim literally anything as being a terrorist act.
It kind of like how some people believe that Americans are literally slaves, because they have to work to earn their money. Is that a correct usage of the word slave? Not exactly, but the word is so broad that it is almost meaningless.
The same goes for America and terrorism. By its own definition, America does not engage in terrorism. By the definition of a tinfoil person, they support all the terrorism in the world.
Getting into that is one giant semantic clusterfuck. I do not nearly hate myself enough to subject myself to the tortureous process that is a debate about semantics.
Appreciate the response. I see no further reason to debate because, as you have said, our differences largely rest in semantics. So long as we can agree that America has pursued and supported highly immoral and destructive activities in the past, and should refrain from doing so in the future. I also think that the decision to stop needs to be made regardless of who is upset by it, be it neo cons or islamic terrorists. I think that with a more humane foreign policy, and less US support being thrown to terrorists (such as the jihadists used against ussr) terrorism will be heavily reduced. (you can choose to call them something other than terrorists if that is how your definitions work)
I do not know if terrorism or Mass murder will ever cease to be a problem though, particularly Given the increasing destructive capability of our technology. I am in favor of increased surveillance not merely to thwart terrorists, but other violent crimes as well. My main point is that i believe that law enforcement is much more capable of running surveillance responsibly when compared with the CIA, intelligence contractors and corporations. Since i see nothing in your stance to refute this, I see no reason to argue.
just fyi; People referred to organized resistance against the nazis during ww2 as "act of terrorism", how do people not realise that this will just as much be used against you.
On August 14 2012 05:47 Zodiac107 wrote: One persons terrorist is another persons freedom fighter.
Only if you have a Newspeak understanding of the word freedom.
One small difference for example:
Dutch freedom fighters that fought the Germans didn't go out and blow themselves up in the middle of a market square in order to kill as many Dutch people as possible so they could establish a religo-fascist regime.
Just a small point where a Dutch freedom fighter and a Qutbist-terrorist are different.
This looks like they are attempting to aggregate and parse data from surveyed public locations. Am I incorrect in that interpretation? If not, this is not some gross violation of your personal freedoms. If, however, this encroaches upon how you conduct yourself in your private life, the outrage is justified. Before I jump to the point of outrage, though, I want that bit of clarification.
Perhaps you could give your thoughts on a few of these documents that show a consistent US policy (five administrations) of supporting the invasion of east Timor by indonesia, which only ended during the Clinton presidency.
Yes, and that was the wrong thing to do.
Then, when America went into the right direction, Al-Qaeda claimed it as one of the most important motivations for their existence.
Backing genocide is but one thing that the west will have to do in order to 'please' Islamic terrorists. The question is, are the appeasers ready to surrender that much?
Saying that America's foreign policy is to blame is a cop-out when you look at what these terrorists demand. Leaving other countries alone is going to mean watching genocides play out. This high and mighty attitude that America needs to "mind its own business," means standing by and watching evil play out.
When even something like having diplomatic relations with a nation is considered an invasion of the middle-east, you need to be intellectually honest and admit that the price to pay is a great deal higher than America just "minding its own business."
Also I'd like your opinion on the high rate of western and particularly US funded and supported terrorism and whether such terrorism should be supported in the future or abandoned. Surely terrorism is not wrong only when carried out by anti US forces?
Let me just say that I do not approve of counterterrorism being used as an excuse to hand over the security apparatus of the state to corporations and intelligence agencies, when law enforcement and the judiciary seem a more fitting choice for running domestic surveillance.
This is where you run into the problem of terrorism being ill-defined, allowing people to claim literally anything as being a terrorist act.
It kind of like how some people believe that Americans are literally slaves, because they have to work to earn their money. Is that a correct usage of the word slave? Not exactly, but the word is so broad that it is almost meaningless.
The same goes for America and terrorism. By its own definition, America does not engage in terrorism. By the definition of a tinfoil person, they support all the terrorism in the world.
Getting into that is one giant semantic clusterfuck. I do not nearly hate myself enough to subject myself to the tortureous process that is a debate about semantics.
Appreciate the response. I see no further reason to debate because, as you have said, our differences largely rest in semantics. So long as we can agree that America has pursued and supported highly immoral and destructive activities in the past, and should refrain from doing so in the future. I also think that the decision to stop needs to be made regardless of who is upset by it, be it neo cons or islamic terrorists. I think that with a more humane foreign policy, and less US support being thrown to terrorists (such as the jihadists used against ussr) terrorism will be heavily reduced. (you can choose to call them something other than terrorists if that is how your definitions work)
I do not know if terrorism or Mass murder will ever cease to be a problem though, particularly Given the increasing destructive capability of our technology. I am in favor of increased surveillance not merely to thwart terrorists, but other violent crimes as well. My main point is that i believe that law enforcement is much more capable of running surveillance responsibly when compared with the CIA, intelligence contractors and corporations. Since i see nothing in your stance to refute this, I see no reason to argue.
I agree that realpolitik has largely been a disaster and should never be repeated. Thankfully, it isn't as prevalent as it used to be.
We will always have terrorism and mass murders, but by and large, humanity is becoming less violent by the year.
I think this new technology of allowing computer programs to analyze data will actually increase privacy, since it removes the need for a human observer.
The only problem can arise if we don't establish proper laws. For example, if being gay was a crime and the machine could find that, that would be a problem.
But those are hypothetical problems. If the US was a fascist state, having any police force would be a disaster, but we acknowledge that the government is good enough to handle having things like an army and a police force to maintain order.
The laws are the crucial point. If we make sure that the laws are proper, the tools hardly matter.
People are making up all kinds of conspiracy stories about the government blackmailing people, or selling the data to companies. None of that is happening, or would happen, and every such argument could also be made against having a police force.
On August 14 2012 05:47 Zodiac107 wrote: One persons terrorist is another persons freedom fighter.
Only if you have a Newspeak understanding of the word freedom.
One small difference for example:
Dutch freedom fighters that fought the Germans didn't go out and blow themselves up in the middle of a market square in order to kill as many Dutch people as possible so they could establish a religo-fascist regime.
Just a small point where a Dutch freedom fighter and a Qutbist-terrorist are different.
This is of course a matter of perspective. The means to and end differ, true. And the amount you want to bet in the fight differ likewise.
This was clear in early 2000, when the Programs Echelon and some other i cant remmber were commented among hacker groups (we are not talking about hackers that make hacks for sc2, but the ones that can get into virtually any system). Some of the most popular opinions now among those groups (some of them from annonymous, some from other sources), are for example that companies that stated they had a security breach and some of their data got stolen actually sell that information to various companies.
That would be a reason to why those security breaches never end up in some people going to jail and the information recovered. Kinda like the massive viruses that exist only so you buy an antivirus program.
Another interesting story floating around there is that 9/11 was actually done by the CIA to get more funding.
Most of this stuff seems like paranoic stories, but the more you think about it, the more "it makes sence" if you think that rich people/people who control the world dont give a shit about general population (wich seems to be the general reality, just have a look at politicians...).
On August 11 2012 09:33 AgentChaos wrote: lol i bet uk doesnt have this shit (we are too poor)
even if we did, what does it matter?
Is everyone who is worried about "being spied on" so self deluded to think that their government or anyone that doesn't know them directly could give a flying fuck what they do? I certainly am not. My government couldn't care less what I'm doing unless I am doing one of the following:
1) Breaking laws 2) Not paying taxes
Monitor me all you want, if I get caught doing something I shouldn't have been doing in the first place then I have no one but myself to blame.
Its the same old story, every generation since time began has felt oppressed by their government and every previous generation tells them how it was better in the old days, just like when older people say "kids respected their elders in my day" its all bullshit... it was exactly the same, just with worse technology.
Please get it through your heads, no one cares what you do unless you are doing something wrong. If cameras and datamining help deter, prevent or catch people breaking laws then they are doing their job and those who stay within the law have nothing to fear. The old "slippery slope" argument is beyond stupid, the government can't arrest you for staying within the law and if they did, YOU HAVE THE VIDEO EVIDENCE TO PROVE YOURSELF INNOCENT since ofc they have everything on CCTV and backed up on fortified HDDs......
And when the people in charge decide to abuse the power an authority you let them have without protest, what then? People should have a right to privacy.
You're in public... Some dolt on the street can follow you and record your every move if they want. And they don't need this system to do it. I think this is paranoia at its finest.
Again, if you'd read my previous posts, it's not about being recorded, it's about who is doing the recording, and on what kind of scale, for what purpose. The issue is about private corporations recording massive amounts of people for some purpose. Also, for the record, if some dolt followed me around and recorded everything I did, he could easily get arrested for that and I could get a restraining order.
To be fair, I'm honestly not too concerned about it as it is now, but just be aware things could go downhill pretty easily if people just roll over for more and more power to the corporations and the government.
For the record, no you couldn't. Think celebs and paparazzi; of course I don't mean that someone could follow you literally everywhere (including inside certain places for example), but when you're out in public spaces, there's really nothing to stop them. Pretty much exactly the same as this system. If you step into the public sphere, you can expect to be observed.
"People are making up all kinds of conspiracy stories about the government blackmailing people, or selling the data to companies. None of that is happening, or would happen, and every such argument could also be made against having a police force."
They are selling the info to companies... Let me be specific. The government (and other governments worldwide) are giving not only funding to abraxas, but also access to much of their security cameras, police reports, etc. This is part of the trapwire program which is supposed to consolidate, cross index and analyze all the data to detect threats. So far so good I guess, except for the worrying fact that a private company with no transparency and less accountability/standards than the government is being given all this data and equipment, without public knowing this.
Where it gets seriously effed up for me is the fact that abraxas is taking this info, from police reports and interviews, government cameras etc., analyzing it for non security purposes (such as tracking activists) and selling all this to companies like Dow, coca cola. A system purportedly anti terrorist, is instead being used as a tool for companies to gather intel on citizens of many countries. And this is all being done without public knowledge, using public "security" equipment and funds, even interviews and reports from common citizens who had no idea they were acting as corporate informants ratting out their fellow citizens. thinking that they were in fact helping to keep their neighbors safe.
If the documents are authentic ... And I think they are, given that wikileaks has been honest so far... Then this is fact, not speculation.
On August 14 2012 06:17 iloveav wrote: This was clear in early 2000, when the Programs Echelon and some other i cant remmber were commented among hacker groups (we are not talking about hackers that make hacks for sc2, but the ones that can get into virtually any system). Some of the most popular opinions now among those groups (some of them from annonymous, some from other sources), are for example that companies that stated they had a security breach and some of their data got stolen actually sell that information to various companies.
That would be a reason to why those security breaches never end up in some people going to jail and the information recovered. Kinda like the massive viruses that exist only so you buy an antivirus program.
Another interesting story floating around there is that 9/11 was actually done by the CIA to get more funding.
Most of this stuff seems like paranoic stories, but the more you think about it, the more "it makes sence" if you think that rich people/people who control the world dont give a shit about general population (wich seems to be the general reality, just have a look at politicians...).
dude come on.
it doesn't make sense.
"POLITICIANS" are not some mystical class towering above "THE MAN" with some evil agenda to keep us down. The vast majority are decent successful people aattempting to.reconcile the views of rradically different constituents based on biased partial informatio n and lobbying power. this sad generalization is nothing better than saying all cops are evil because sheriff Bob beat up a black guy, or all Germans are Nazis (sup Godwin)
moreover, people tend to conflate government abilities with capability. damn thing can't bloody streets in an efficient time effective manner and now we think they could do THIS? and actually make it work?
If they'd put those money on their healthcare system and health research instead, they would save more lives then they are now. I find that weird and abit disturbing.
To control a people, scare them. Works every time, unfortunatly.
On August 11 2012 09:33 AgentChaos wrote: lol i bet uk doesnt have this shit (we are too poor)
even if we did, what does it matter?
Is everyone who is worried about "being spied on" so self deluded to think that their government or anyone that doesn't know them directly could give a flying fuck what they do? I certainly am not. My government couldn't care less what I'm doing unless I am doing one of the following:
1) Breaking laws 2) Not paying taxes
Monitor me all you want, if I get caught doing something I shouldn't have been doing in the first place then I have no one but myself to blame.
Its the same old story, every generation since time began has felt oppressed by their government and every previous generation tells them how it was better in the old days, just like when older people say "kids respected their elders in my day" its all bullshit... it was exactly the same, just with worse technology.
Please get it through your heads, no one cares what you do unless you are doing something wrong. If cameras and datamining help deter, prevent or catch people breaking laws then they are doing their job and those who stay within the law have nothing to fear. The old "slippery slope" argument is beyond stupid, the government can't arrest you for staying within the law and if they did, YOU HAVE THE VIDEO EVIDENCE TO PROVE YOURSELF INNOCENT since ofc they have everything on CCTV and backed up on fortified HDDs......
And when the people in charge decide to abuse the power an authority you let them have without protest, what then? People should have a right to privacy.
You're in public... Some dolt on the street can follow you and record your every move if they want. And they don't need this system to do it. I think this is paranoia at its finest.
Again, if you'd read my previous posts, it's not about being recorded, it's about who is doing the recording, and on what kind of scale, for what purpose. The issue is about private corporations recording massive amounts of people for some purpose. Also, for the record, if some dolt followed me around and recorded everything I did, he could easily get arrested for that and I could get a restraining order.
To be fair, I'm honestly not too concerned about it as it is now, but just be aware things could go downhill pretty easily if people just roll over for more and more power to the corporations and the government.
For the record, no you couldn't. Think celebs and paparazzi; of course I don't mean that someone could follow you literally everywhere (including inside certain places for example), but when you're out in public spaces, there's really nothing to stop them. Pretty much exactly the same as this system. If you step into the public sphere, you can expect to be observed.
Yes I could actually. You see, as I am not a celebrity, such behavior is not considered normal, and would qualify as stalking. Technically speaking, the papparazi following people around everywhere is stalking too, but they get away with it under freedom of the press. These companies aren't publishing their records for everyone too see, so that doesn't work.
It's a question of reasonable expectation of privacy in any given situation. Do you have a reasonable expectation not to be photographed and tracked everywhere you go the moment you step out of your front door?
I mean ofc protecting the citizens is a priority but I really think they are going too far with this (and with a lot of other things too... americans tend to overdo things)
Still an evolving area of the law, much effected by changes in technology, and defined more by legal precedents than exact principles.
Privacy is interpreted more liberally in, for instance, some European countries, while in America it is a more closely constrained right. In the US, you have very little right to privacy in public areas. However, if traffic cameras could, for instance, x ray passing cars right through their tinted windows and facially recognize all the occupants, that would violate the current concept of a reasonable expectation of privacy. Same if they could see into opaque containers you happen to be holding.
Very complex area. Further complicated by the fact that people respond differently depending on how and by whom their privacy is breached. Many posters in this thread adopt a blasé Attitude towards "the government" spying on them, but upon discovering that they/their families were being observed continually as they went about their day by some other persons or person, would likely become quite angry. Given such distinctions, it is hard to define what exact principles privacy should be based on.
The more large, faceless and closer to authority the entity observing one is, the less likely one is to become angry, and yet when info acquired by government cameras, systems, police officers and with public funding becomes available to the highest bidder, as it has in the case of trapwire, then it becomes quite easy for any person or group with sufficient money to "virtually" spy on you or those close to you. I can guarantee you that not all these groups will have your security and best interests in mind.
On August 14 2012 07:18 sVnteen wrote: oh usa do you really feel the need to do that?
I mean ofc protecting the citizens is a priority but I really think they are going too far with this (and with a lot of other things too... americans tend to overdo things)
On August 14 2012 07:18 sVnteen wrote: oh usa do you really feel the need to do that?
I mean ofc protecting the citizens is a priority but I really think they are going too far with this (and with a lot of other things too... americans tend to overdo things)
And so the pointing of fingers begin ^^. No wonder all of this shit happens so easily, everyone's to busy pissing on each other to deal with anything of concern.
On August 14 2012 07:18 sVnteen wrote: oh usa do you really feel the need to do that?
I mean ofc protecting the citizens is a priority but I really think they are going too far with this (and with a lot of other things too... americans tend to overdo things)
And so the pointing of fingers begin ^^. No wonder all of this shit happens so easily, everyone's to busy pissing on each other to deal with anything of concern.
Reading my post as fingerpointing would be the shallow way to read it. Instead I was hoping (probably misguided without any accompanying text) to point out oh "Ohhhhh well this is clearly a Chinese thing, ahhhh well datamining just an American thing, ahhh well you know that whole digital rights is a Japanese thing!" when it's clearly not. As technology progresses things like this on a global scale are inevitable.
On August 14 2012 07:18 sVnteen wrote: oh usa do you really feel the need to do that?
I mean ofc protecting the citizens is a priority but I really think they are going too far with this (and with a lot of other things too... americans tend to overdo things)
And so the pointing of fingers begin ^^. No wonder all of this shit happens so easily, everyone's to busy pissing on each other to deal with anything of concern.
Reading my post as fingerpointing would be the shallow way to read it. Instead maybe people can wakeup things happen on a global scale congruently for reasons, and your petty wishes to stop it are pretty pathetic.
Actually I was reading both your posts as finger pointing, don't get so defensive. "and your petty wishes to stop it are pretty pathetic" stop what, finger pointing? You need better things to do with your time than get offended over a 2 line comment.
EDIT on your EDIT:
Sorry, your edit actually made it even more facetious, should have stopped while behind. You should have said "edited to add a bit more stupidity" but honesty isn't everyone's quality hehehe.
On August 14 2012 07:18 sVnteen wrote: oh usa do you really feel the need to do that?
I mean ofc protecting the citizens is a priority but I really think they are going too far with this (and with a lot of other things too... americans tend to overdo things)
And so the pointing of fingers begin ^^. No wonder all of this shit happens so easily, everyone's to busy pissing on each other to deal with anything of concern.
Reading my post as fingerpointing would be the shallow way to read it. Instead maybe people can wakeup things happen on a global scale congruently for reasons, and your petty wishes to stop it are pretty pathetic.
Actually I was reading both your posts as finger pointing, don't get so defensive. "and your petty wishes to stop it are pretty pathetic" stop what, finger pointing? You need better things to do with your time than get offended over a 2 line comment.
EDIT on your EDIT:
Sorry, your edit actually made it even more facetious, should have stopped while behind. You should have said "edited to add a bit more stupidity" but honesty isn't everyone's quality hehehe.
I wish to respond to your edited critique of my edited critique that your pointing out finger pointing wasn't necessarily the focus of my anger (although it compounded my internet fury to be sure), however this is my fault for slinging vague one liners.
On August 14 2012 07:18 sVnteen wrote: oh usa do you really feel the need to do that?
I mean ofc protecting the citizens is a priority but I really think they are going too far with this (and with a lot of other things too... americans tend to overdo things)
And so the pointing of fingers begin ^^. No wonder all of this shit happens so easily, everyone's to busy pissing on each other to deal with anything of concern.
Reading my post as fingerpointing would be the shallow way to read it. Instead maybe people can wakeup things happen on a global scale congruently for reasons, and your petty wishes to stop it are pretty pathetic.
Actually I was reading both your posts as finger pointing, don't get so defensive. "and your petty wishes to stop it are pretty pathetic" stop what, finger pointing? You need better things to do with your time than get offended over a 2 line comment.
EDIT on your EDIT:
Sorry, your edit actually made it even more facetious, should have stopped while behind. You should have said "edited to add a bit more stupidity" but honesty isn't everyone's quality hehehe.
I wish to respond to your edited critique of my edited critique that your pointing out finger pointing wasn't necessarily the focus of my anger (although it compounded my internet fury to be sure), however this is my fault for slinging vague one liners.
Touche' good sir, all is forgiven although I still think you have a rather ignorant view point. Agree to disagree.
I really couldn't careless if someone is observing let them observe. It doesn't stop crime from happening. What they do with the information, I don't know nor do I care. I am busying working my ass off to get food in my stomach.
On August 14 2012 08:33 KingAce wrote: I really couldn't careless if someone is observing let them observe. It doesn't stop crime from happening. What they do with the information, I don't know nor do I care. I am busying working my ass off to get food in my stomach.
On August 14 2012 08:33 KingAce wrote: I really couldn't careless if someone is observing let them observe. It doesn't stop crime from happening. What they do with the information, I don't know nor do I care. I am busying working my ass off to get food in my stomach.
You're the dumbest person I've witnessed on this website so far.
On August 14 2012 08:33 KingAce wrote: I really couldn't careless if someone is observing let them observe. It doesn't stop crime from happening. What they do with the information, I don't know nor do I care. I am busying working my ass off to get food in my stomach.
You're the dumbest person I've witnessed on this website so far.
So, is there any real proof that this is actually happening? I mean, have the leaked emails been authenticated in any way? Can they be authenticated in any way? In over 8k emails, this mysterious (but absolutely MASSIVE) data center's location isn't mentioned, alluded to, or implied in any way? There'd have to be some sort of paper trail, as well, right? That much data would require a mind-boggling amount of storage, and there would have to be a not-insignificant amount of people performing upkeep and maintenance. It just seems to me that the amount of work required to actually "keep track" of what millions of people are doing from day to day would be staggering; there's no way it could stay covert for any amount of time. The chance of a secret actually being kept is inversely proportional to the square of the number of people in on the secret.
As for being recorded, you're already being recorded just about every time you walk into a public place. Banks, stores, restaurants, ATM machines, etc. Unless you're paying for everything with cash, you're also already leaving a very traceable paper trail.
TL;DR: This just doesn't seem plausible to me. :-/
wouldnt it be better to protect citizens by providing better healthcare? I mean im muuuuuuuuuuuuuch more likely to die of a heart attack then i am from a terrorist attack.
On August 14 2012 14:02 adacan wrote: wouldnt it be better to protect citizens by providing better healthcare? I mean im muuuuuuuuuuuuuch more likely to die of a heart attack then i am from a terrorist attack.
Explosions are more dramatic. When 9/11 happened, my mother panicked and she packed bags full of clothes and food and stuff in case we had to leave in an emergency.
On August 14 2012 08:33 KingAce wrote: I really couldn't careless if someone is observing let them observe. It doesn't stop crime from happening. What they do with the information, I don't know nor do I care. I am busying working my ass off to get food in my stomach.
You're the dumbest person I've witnessed on this website so far.
At least this dumb person isn't afraid of something that may or may not exist. I have immediate problems, why would I worry about events in the future I may or may not live to experience. You guys must live very boring lives. 1984 fanatics.
Welcome to the Police/Prison State. If you are fine being a prisoner, being watched 24/7, everything you do, everywhere you go, everything you buy, to be intimidated for being against the State, etc. The USA has become one big plantation. So much for being the land of the free with the responses I've seen in this thread. Serfs....so so many serfs on these boards.
Don't you all just feel so much safer? Ready to protect, and serve the shit out of you.
lol what is this. I dont mind the police being properly equipped to handle modern combat considering that criminals can easily get assault rifles today.. what do you expect them to do?
In the 1920's and 1930's the standard gun of choice for police officers was generally a .38 caliber revolver. Most didnt carry any other type of weapon like officers do nowadays. During this time, criminals began to arm themselves with weapons like Thompson sub machine guns and browning automatic rifles. The BAR is a "light" machine gun that fires .30 caliber rifle cartridges and is fed by a 20 round magazine. Bonnie is known to have carried a BAR. It was at this time that the FBI argued and convinced the government that automatic weapons were too much of a problem and needed to be banned.
Ever since then the gap between the level of equipment law enforcement has access to and readily uses and the equipment both criminals and civilians have access to has steadily increased. A modern SWAT team is probably more heavily equipped than a comparably sized WWI unit. Meanwhile the level of equipment a modern criminal typically uses has stayed the same or even decreased.
I'm skeptical of some of the claims about this system's breadth and capability. These have really hacked into every device on the planet including book store cash registers? Lol sounds like wikileaks wants to hype up their finds. Wouldnt be the first time.
On August 14 2012 11:03 Cydearrm wrote: So, is there any real proof that this is actually happening? I mean, have the leaked emails been authenticated in any way? Can they be authenticated in any way? In over 8k emails, this mysterious (but absolutely MASSIVE) data center's location isn't mentioned, alluded to, or implied in any way? There'd have to be some sort of paper trail, as well, right? That much data would require a mind-boggling amount of storage, and there would have to be a not-insignificant amount of people performing upkeep and maintenance. It just seems to me that the amount of work required to actually "keep track" of what millions of people are doing from day to day would be staggering; there's no way it could stay covert for any amount of time. The chance of a secret actually being kept is inversely proportional to the square of the number of people in on the secret.
As for being recorded, you're already being recorded just about every time you walk into a public place. Banks, stores, restaurants, ATM machines, etc. Unless you're paying for everything with cash, you're also already leaving a very traceable paper trail.
TL;DR: This just doesn't seem plausible to me. :-/
Go read my post right here from page 12. Their website is trapewire.com and they don't deny what they are doing. To quote on their webpage,
TrapWire is a unique, predictive software system designed to detect patterns of pre-attack surveillance and logistical planning and introduce the basis for a paradigm shift in the methodologies traditionally applied to securing critical infrastructure, key resources and personnel.
It was created by Abraxas, staffed by ex-CIA agents As for your question about the data center it's right on their website.
Security The data center housing the TrapWire infrastructure was constructed to the highest level of physical security standards. Access to the facility is controlled and logged through a system of biometric hand geometry readers, and the facility is carefully monitored by security officials on guard 24 hours per day, 7 days per week, 365 a year.
System Security is also of critical importance and is designed into all levels of the TrapWire application and infrastructure. All connections to the TrapWire application are made through a 256-bit encrypted SSL connection which terminates in a network DMZ. User authentication is performed from the DMZ and must be successful before a connection to TrapWire is permitted. Implemented security processes are intended to protect any information in the TrapWire system from loss, misuse, unauthorized access, disclosure, alteration or destruction.
Source Instead of people not wanting to believe and saying its just 1984 nutjobs going at it again , maybe you should just spend 20 seconds googling their actual website. They aren't denying any of this.
On August 14 2012 22:41 Doodsmack wrote: I'm skeptical of some of the claims about this system's breadth and capability. These have really hacked into every device on the planet including book store cash registers? Lol sounds like wikileaks wants to hype up their finds. Wouldnt be the first time.
erm where does it say that? a link would be appreciated.
Just read about this here on teamliquid. I am living in Austria and this has not been mentioned either on TV news or in the newspaper (well, I am not the most avid news follower, but something like this should be in the headlines, instead of "this person got killed by this person with this weapon" stuff..)
On August 14 2012 11:03 Cydearrm wrote: So, is there any real proof that this is actually happening? I mean, have the leaked emails been authenticated in any way? Can they be authenticated in any way? In over 8k emails, this mysterious (but absolutely MASSIVE) data center's location isn't mentioned, alluded to, or implied in any way? There'd have to be some sort of paper trail, as well, right? That much data would require a mind-boggling amount of storage, and there would have to be a not-insignificant amount of people performing upkeep and maintenance. It just seems to me that the amount of work required to actually "keep track" of what millions of people are doing from day to day would be staggering; there's no way it could stay covert for any amount of time. The chance of a secret actually being kept is inversely proportional to the square of the number of people in on the secret.
As for being recorded, you're already being recorded just about every time you walk into a public place. Banks, stores, restaurants, ATM machines, etc. Unless you're paying for everything with cash, you're also already leaving a very traceable paper trail.
TL;DR: This just doesn't seem plausible to me. :-/
Go read my post right here from page 12. Their website is trapewire.com and they don't deny what they are doing. To quote on their webpage,
TrapWire is a unique, predictive software system designed to detect patterns of pre-attack surveillance and logistical planning and introduce the basis for a paradigm shift in the methodologies traditionally applied to securing critical infrastructure, key resources and personnel.
It was created by Abraxas, staffed by ex-CIA agents As for your question about the data center it's right on their website.
Security The data center housing the TrapWire infrastructure was constructed to the highest level of physical security standards. Access to the facility is controlled and logged through a system of biometric hand geometry readers, and the facility is carefully monitored by security officials on guard 24 hours per day, 7 days per week, 365 a year.
System Security is also of critical importance and is designed into all levels of the TrapWire application and infrastructure. All connections to the TrapWire application are made through a 256-bit encrypted SSL connection which terminates in a network DMZ. User authentication is performed from the DMZ and must be successful before a connection to TrapWire is permitted. Implemented security processes are intended to protect any information in the TrapWire system from loss, misuse, unauthorized access, disclosure, alteration or destruction.
Source Instead of people not wanting to believe and saying its just 1984 nutjobs going at it again , maybe you should just spend 20 seconds googling their actual website. They aren't denying any of this.
The US has developed a new way of hiding secretive material, they put it in plain site and hope all of the people who question it are called "trooferists" for wondering why such a system is required and how it is even legit. Things have definitely changed in the past 11 years since 9/11, people seem not interested in questioning their government even though history has proven that is a recipe for disaster.
EPT
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