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On August 12 2012 10:25 M4nkind wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2012 10:12 Djzapz wrote:On August 12 2012 10:01 M4nkind wrote:On August 12 2012 09:46 Zahir wrote:On August 12 2012 09:27 Gnarg wrote:
The real problem with this if its true would be the secrecy. In a democracy big decisions about privacy and security should be made in public space, otherwise its not much of a democracy at all. Agreed. Big difference between law enforcement and the judiciary running a surveillance network, open to media and public debate/scrutiny, with laws in place to protect the populace... And the intel agencies running it, selling shit to corporations, and doing god knows what else. "they won't care about me" yeah ok, go look up the red scare and mk ultra. CIA and FBI are well known for their propensity for fucking around with completely random individuals just to learn things, and blackmailing/intimidating large swaths of the population. I dislike how people completely ignore the past and assume that for some reason, this time the government contractors and spooks won't use their shiny new toy on completely innocent folk or random leftists. Democracy and freedom is a lie. No one would be stupid enough to let masses of people rule. That's why the masses don't rule, they elect people to rule for them. Right, and we have huge variety of uncontrolled people to elect. You truthfully think that elections of parties or presidents change anything? No "secret powers behind governments" want for people to have free will and do what they want. Thats why I love authoritarian regimes or communism, because they don't lie about freedom and show you true persons on the wheel of governing, where democracy has governments disguising in disguises and lies.
North-Korea sounds like just the country for you then!
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So we have the technology and hardware to monitor many places in the nation for people of interest and a dedicated team of people working to combat illegal activity with the serious potential for terrorism. Explain to me how the fuck is this a bad thing? Are people idiots or does everyone suddenly support terrorism? Last time I checked people liked the concept of world peace, so why the fuck in God's name would counter-terrorism be scorned? Jesus Christ people need to wake up and stop being such hypocrites. Especially considering that you honestly have absolutely no reason to give a shit as long as you aren't a wanted criminal. And people never really seem to give a shit about breaking the law, so I don't see why that would cause a problem either.
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On August 12 2012 10:33 Areon wrote:
So we have the technology and hardware to monitor many places in the nation for people of interest and a dedicated team of people working to combat illegal activity with the serious potential for terrorism. Explain to me how the fuck is this a bad thing? Are people idiots or does everyone suddenly support terrorism? Last time I checked people liked the concept of world peace, so why the fuck in God's name would counter-terrorism be scorned? Jesus Christ people need to wake up and stop being such hypocrites.
They're selling their data to random mega corporations ... And the people Collecting and archiving the info from all those government cameras are private corporations with no oversight, transparency or required procedures like law enforcement or judiciary... Nothing stopping them from revealing everything they got on u to anyone who wants to pay for it... Again look up red scare or mk ultra for an example of how intelligence agencies and contractors can use systems like these to fuck over people like you or me with no repercussions.
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On August 12 2012 10:25 M4nkind wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2012 10:12 Djzapz wrote:On August 12 2012 10:01 M4nkind wrote:On August 12 2012 09:46 Zahir wrote:On August 12 2012 09:27 Gnarg wrote:
The real problem with this if its true would be the secrecy. In a democracy big decisions about privacy and security should be made in public space, otherwise its not much of a democracy at all. Agreed. Big difference between law enforcement and the judiciary running a surveillance network, open to media and public debate/scrutiny, with laws in place to protect the populace... And the intel agencies running it, selling shit to corporations, and doing god knows what else. "they won't care about me" yeah ok, go look up the red scare and mk ultra. CIA and FBI are well known for their propensity for fucking around with completely random individuals just to learn things, and blackmailing/intimidating large swaths of the population. I dislike how people completely ignore the past and assume that for some reason, this time the government contractors and spooks won't use their shiny new toy on completely innocent folk or random leftists. Democracy and freedom is a lie. No one would be stupid enough to let masses of people rule. That's why the masses don't rule, they elect people to rule for them. Right, and we have huge variety of uncontrolled people to elect. You truthfully think that elections of parties or presidents change anything? No "secret powers behind governments" want for people to have free will and do what they want. Thats why I love authoritarian regimes or communism, because they don't lie about freedom and show you true persons on the wheel of governing, where democracy has governments disguising in disguises and lies.
I've seen that uneducated ramble so many times, I'm getting tired of the ignorance. Let me drop some knowledge upon you. Just a little bit so you won't get bored of reading. I'm doing this even though you'll refuse to take it because of your absolutist vision of politics, which is completely faulty.
![[image loading]](http://i48.tinypic.com/2zjfh9y.jpg)
You have a small variety of largely controlled people to elect, and they're confined to a pretty strict division of the 3 types of power, and everything is kept pretty well in checks and balances which have done a reasonable job so far.
Before I start, I want to concede something to you, but that's only because you limit your vision of politics to this, and I want to get your narrow mind to expand beyond this frankly childish vision of the world. It is true that every party, every government lies, cheats, steals, and lies some more. Are you satisfied with that, or are you an adult who's willing to ask okay, what's more?
Neckbeards don't know this because they spend their day in the basement, dwelling in pessimism, think about how bad the government is. But there are MAJOR and truly tangible things that happen both with internal and international policies when governments change.
I'll give you examples:
Taxes: Depending on who you vote for, the tax code can and WILL change, a lot. Neckbeards don't know this because of their lack of financial responsibilities.
Budget: The budget of the US changes DRAMATICALLY depending on who's elected. The focus is different. Neckbeards don't know this because they're busy thinking about how bad the government is. Do you think this is minor? Billions of dollars are moved all over the place. People lose jobs, others get jobs - sometimes jobs are lost, other times jobs are gained. This is huge, and lives are changed completely by this. Just because it's not you doesn't mean the US is not affected.
Moral stuff: Ask homosexuals and blacks. They'll tell you that some governments work much harder to provoke social change. I'll use an example that I've actually studied: Research done by my uni showed that riot police is a LOT more aggressive under a conservative government than it is under a liberal government. Similar things happen in the US depending on who's in charge. Think about the abortion debate, gay marriage, capital punishment to name a few (out of hundreds).
International stuff: Do you honestly think that Bush and Obama's administration have the same sort of behavior when it comes down to wars, globalization/protectionism, etc.
Economic policies: Night and fucking day. Do you think the republicans would have handled the recession in the same way? Come on!
Environmental policies: [More obvious stuff that YOU KNOW ABOUT]
...
What about Obamacare, that's billions of dollars. Changes people's lives. What about Medicare. Social security changed lives and civil rights. The clean air act. Reagan's gutting of financial regulations had massive repercussions for everyone in the US but also in the world. I could list you examples for hours.
"Oh it's all the same". This sounds like an insult but go read a book. Literally start reading things if you want to be able to be competent at these conversations. Don't just dump crude and unrefined feelings at us. Being pessimistic is fine, complaining about the lack of parties is fine, but to say that electing the democrats or the republicans makes no difference is to be willfully ignorant or just grossly dishonest.
And the idea that communist and authoritarian governments don't lie to their population is just fucking laughable, pardon my language.
"[Communist and authoritarian governments] don't lie about freedom and show you true persons on the wheel of governing".
Hilarious: (For the sake of clarity, I'm saying that authoritarian and communist governments also lie just as much if not more. Just mostly about different topics).
To answer your question, yes I "truthfully think that elections of parties or presidents change" things. Not only because this is my field of study and I know a thing or two, but also because if one applies themselves to look into it instead of spewing cookie-cutter nonsense, they will see that there are huge differences between the democrats and the republicans in the US.
If you want to complain about your government, learn about it, and trust me you WILL find hundreds, thousands of legitimate reasons to complain and to be outraged. Legitimate reasons.
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One of the reasons I love Team Liquid, is you can't get away with lazy conspiracy theory thinking here  .
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On August 11 2012 09:06 Liquid`Drone wrote:
If true, how is this not big news? Global surveillance with facial recognition? You're fine with someone knowing where you are and what you're doing at every moment? There's absolutely no way any possible terrorist or other threat justifies this gross invasion of privacy, and that's that.
I don't care even the slightest bit. I have nothing to hide, nor do I think anyone gives two shits about what I do or where I am.
Recognize my face all day and all night for all I care.
The important part of 1984 is not the surveillance. Winston Smith is not caught via telescreen, he's caught via informants. If our governments decide to become repressive totalitarian police states, they don't need supercomputers in hidden data centers. They managed just fine without that for most of the 20th century in pretty much half of the developed world.
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On August 12 2012 11:23 yeint wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2012 09:06 Liquid`Drone wrote:
If true, how is this not big news? Global surveillance with facial recognition? You're fine with someone knowing where you are and what you're doing at every moment? There's absolutely no way any possible terrorist or other threat justifies this gross invasion of privacy, and that's that. I don't care even the slightest bit. I have nothing to hide, nor do I think anyone gives two shits about what I do or where I am. Recognize my face all day and all night for all I care. The important part of 1984 is not the surveillance. Winston Smith is not caught via telescreen, he's caught via informants. If our governments decide to become repressive totalitarian police states, they don't need supercomputers in hidden data centers. They managed just fine without that for most of the 20th century in pretty much half of the developed world.
I think some of us place more of a premium on a certain level of privacy. The integration of technology into society has frayed privacy, certainly, but I'd like to hope there is still room for me to be removed from the grid. That's likely naive, but I don't think I'm alone, and that's why this is potentially huge news.
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Ahhh soooo they are spying on me while I am in my room, at night. while my doors are locked? Oh boy... I hope its a woman who saw what I was doing.
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On August 12 2012 11:33 ImNightmare wrote:
Ahhh soooo they are spying on me while I am in my room, at night. while my doors are locked? Oh boy... I hope its a woman who saw what I was doing.
Through your webcam, and I doubt its a woman.
Personally I feel I have nothing to hide so it doesn't bother me much, but it does have a negative effect. Like others have posted now every trace you leave behind has a pricetag on it. It really just makes me a lot more cautious. Most of this technology has been around for a long time it just may be your first time hearing about it. If you know the little tricks you can learn ways to fight it.
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On August 12 2012 11:23 yeint wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2012 09:06 Liquid`Drone wrote:
If true, how is this not big news? Global surveillance with facial recognition? You're fine with someone knowing where you are and what you're doing at every moment? There's absolutely no way any possible terrorist or other threat justifies this gross invasion of privacy, and that's that. I don't care even the slightest bit. I have nothing to hide, nor do I think anyone gives two shits about what I do or where I am. Recognize my face all day and all night for all I care. The important part of 1984 is not the surveillance. Winston Smith is not caught via telescreen, he's caught via informants. If our governments decide to become repressive totalitarian police states, they don't need supercomputers in hidden data centers. They managed just fine without that for most of the 20th century in pretty much half of the developed world.
So you don't give a shit about having a private company and corporations with unlimited access to a large percentage of security cams (government and private alike) and database of everything on those cameras, as well as records from citizens who reported things to the police thinking they are talking to them only and not this corporate coca cola citizen monitoring network. Do you not care that this is being done with your tax dollars and no input or debate from the public, you or your representatives in congress or the judiciary? Do you not care that there are no ethical rules or laws in place to regulate this surveillance network, nor could there be any because it was all set up in secret by cia and ex cia known for their unethical treatment of innocent US civilians? Do you not care if any laws or ethical regulations are ever put in place to restrict what companies can do with the dossiers they can now purchase on you, with info from government security cams and technology that no one ever said was going to be used for this purpose when you were paying for it all? Do you not care about what
is likely a massive black ops censoring attempt by these same government funded companies to punish wikileaks for exposing this information?
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On August 12 2012 11:06 radscorpion9 wrote:One of the reasons I love Team Liquid, is you can't get away with lazy conspiracy theory thinking here .
Where is the theory in this? People ARE being given this information.
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On August 12 2012 11:45 lodeet wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2012 11:33 ImNightmare wrote:
Ahhh soooo they are spying on me while I am in my room, at night. while my doors are locked? Oh boy... I hope its a woman who saw what I was doing. Through your webcam, and I doubt its a woman. Personally I feel I have nothing to hide so it doesn't bother me much, but it does have a negative effect. Like others have posted now every trace you leave behind has a pricetag on it. It really just makes me a lot more cautious. Most of this technology has been around for a long time it just may be your first time hearing about it. If you know the little tricks you can learn ways to fight it.
Well, I think I have a photogenic orgasm face.
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On August 12 2012 11:45 lodeet wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2012 11:33 ImNightmare wrote:
Ahhh soooo they are spying on me while I am in my room, at night. while my doors are locked? Oh boy... I hope its a woman who saw what I was doing. Through your webcam, and I doubt its a woman. Personally I feel I have nothing to hide so it doesn't bother me much, but it does have a negative effect. Like others have posted now every trace you leave behind has a pricetag on it. It really just makes me a lot more cautious. Most of this technology has been around for a long time it just may be your first time hearing about it. If you know the little tricks you can learn ways to fight it.
Usto be a site up that randomly hacked into webcams/security cameras across the world, I can't remember how I found it (might have been stumble upon or a wiki wormhole) but anywho, there I was starring at a security camera to what looked to be a parking lot (not that cool I know) but when I went to the next one it was someones room (thankfully no one in it, I'd of felt fucked up). I was pretty young, say 16 or so, I was scared that I'd get arrested or something because of it (silly kid) anyway yeah, it'd be really fucking odd if that started happening.
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On August 12 2012 10:55 Djzapz wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On August 12 2012 10:25 M4nkind wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2012 10:12 Djzapz wrote:On August 12 2012 10:01 M4nkind wrote:On August 12 2012 09:46 Zahir wrote:On August 12 2012 09:27 Gnarg wrote:
The real problem with this if its true would be the secrecy. In a democracy big decisions about privacy and security should be made in public space, otherwise its not much of a democracy at all. Agreed. Big difference between law enforcement and the judiciary running a surveillance network, open to media and public debate/scrutiny, with laws in place to protect the populace... And the intel agencies running it, selling shit to corporations, and doing god knows what else. "they won't care about me" yeah ok, go look up the red scare and mk ultra. CIA and FBI are well known for their propensity for fucking around with completely random individuals just to learn things, and blackmailing/intimidating large swaths of the population. I dislike how people completely ignore the past and assume that for some reason, this time the government contractors and spooks won't use their shiny new toy on completely innocent folk or random leftists. Democracy and freedom is a lie. No one would be stupid enough to let masses of people rule. That's why the masses don't rule, they elect people to rule for them. Right, and we have huge variety of uncontrolled people to elect. You truthfully think that elections of parties or presidents change anything? No "secret powers behind governments" want for people to have free will and do what they want. Thats why I love authoritarian regimes or communism, because they don't lie about freedom and show you true persons on the wheel of governing, where democracy has governments disguising in disguises and lies. I've seen that uneducated ramble so many times, I'm getting tired of the ignorance. Let me drop some knowledge upon you. Just a little bit so you won't get bored of reading. I'm doing this even though you'll refuse to take it because of your absolutist vision of politics, which is completely faulty. You have a small variety of largely controlled people to elect, and they're confined to a pretty strict division of the 3 types of power, and everything is kept pretty well in checks and balances which have done a reasonable job so far. Before I start, I want to concede something to you, but that's only because you limit your vision of politics to this, and I want to get your narrow mind to expand beyond this frankly childish vision of the world. It is true that every party, every government lies, cheats, steals, and lies some more. Are you satisfied with that, or are you an adult who's willing to ask okay, what's more? Neckbeards don't know this because they spend their day in the basement, dwelling in pessimism, think about how bad the government is. But there are MAJOR and truly tangible things that happen both with internal and international policies when governments change. I'll give you examples: Taxes: Depending on who you vote for, the tax code can and WILL change, a lot. Neckbeards don't know this because of their lack of financial responsibilities. Budget: The budget of the US changes DRAMATICALLY depending on who's elected. The focus is different. Neckbeards don't know this because they're busy thinking about how bad the government is. Do you think this is minor? Billions of dollars are moved all over the place. People lose jobs, others get jobs - sometimes jobs are lost, other times jobs are gained. This is huge, and lives are changed completely by this. Just because it's not you doesn't mean the US is not affected. Moral stuff: Ask homosexuals and blacks. They'll tell you that some governments work much harder to provoke social change. I'll use an example that I've actually studied: Research done by my uni showed that riot police is a LOT more aggressive under a conservative government than it is under a liberal government. Similar things happen in the US depending on who's in charge. Think about the abortion debate, gay marriage, capital punishment to name a few (out of hundreds). International stuff: Do you honestly think that Bush and Obama's administration have the same sort of behavior when it comes down to wars, globalization/protectionism, etc. Economic policies: Night and fucking day. Do you think the republicans would have handled the recession in the same way? Come on! Environmental policies: [More obvious stuff that YOU KNOW ABOUT] ... What about Obamacare, that's billions of dollars. Changes people's lives. What about Medicare. Social security changed lives and civil rights. The clean air act. Reagan's gutting of financial regulations had massive repercussions for everyone in the US but also in the world. I could list you examples for hours. "Oh it's all the same". This sounds like an insult but go read a book. Literally start reading things if you want to be able to be competent at these conversations. Don't just dump crude and unrefined feelings at us. Being pessimistic is fine, complaining about the lack of parties is fine, but to say that electing the democrats or the republicans makes no difference is to be willfully ignorant or just grossly dishonest. And the idea that communist and authoritarian governments don't lie to their population is just fucking laughable, pardon my language. " [Communist and authoritarian governments] don't lie about freedom and show you true persons on the wheel of governing". Hilarious: (For the sake of clarity, I'm saying that authoritarian and communist governments also lie just as much if not more. Just mostly about different topics). To answer your question, yes I "truthfully think that elections of parties or presidents change" things. Not only because this is my field of study and I know a thing or two, but also because if one applies themselves to look into it instead of spewing cookie-cutter nonsense, they will see that there are huge differences between the democrats and the republicans in the US. If you want to complain about your government, learn about it, and trust me you WILL find hundreds, thousands of legitimate reasons to complain and to be outraged. Legitimate reasons.
hahaha, i think that was a rhetorical question from him... i think he would more likely appreciate all the effort you put into your post and point without all the aggressiveness.
..neckbeards? hahaha i think it's a bit too soon to call someone out like that; as far as i know, you're both still complete strangers to one another.
but i agree this this sentiment very, very much:
If you want to complain about your government, learn about it, and trust me you WILL find hundreds, thousands of legitimate reasons to complain and to be outraged. Legitimate reasons.
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On August 12 2012 12:13 nanaoei wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2012 10:55 Djzapz wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On August 12 2012 10:25 M4nkind wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2012 10:12 Djzapz wrote:On August 12 2012 10:01 M4nkind wrote:On August 12 2012 09:46 Zahir wrote:On August 12 2012 09:27 Gnarg wrote:
The real problem with this if its true would be the secrecy. In a democracy big decisions about privacy and security should be made in public space, otherwise its not much of a democracy at all. Agreed. Big difference between law enforcement and the judiciary running a surveillance network, open to media and public debate/scrutiny, with laws in place to protect the populace... And the intel agencies running it, selling shit to corporations, and doing god knows what else. "they won't care about me" yeah ok, go look up the red scare and mk ultra. CIA and FBI are well known for their propensity for fucking around with completely random individuals just to learn things, and blackmailing/intimidating large swaths of the population. I dislike how people completely ignore the past and assume that for some reason, this time the government contractors and spooks won't use their shiny new toy on completely innocent folk or random leftists. Democracy and freedom is a lie. No one would be stupid enough to let masses of people rule. That's why the masses don't rule, they elect people to rule for them. Right, and we have huge variety of uncontrolled people to elect. You truthfully think that elections of parties or presidents change anything? No "secret powers behind governments" want for people to have free will and do what they want. Thats why I love authoritarian regimes or communism, because they don't lie about freedom and show you true persons on the wheel of governing, where democracy has governments disguising in disguises and lies. I've seen that uneducated ramble so many times, I'm getting tired of the ignorance. Let me drop some knowledge upon you. Just a little bit so you won't get bored of reading. I'm doing this even though you'll refuse to take it because of your absolutist vision of politics, which is completely faulty. You have a small variety of largely controlled people to elect, and they're confined to a pretty strict division of the 3 types of power, and everything is kept pretty well in checks and balances which have done a reasonable job so far. Before I start, I want to concede something to you, but that's only because you limit your vision of politics to this, and I want to get your narrow mind to expand beyond this frankly childish vision of the world. It is true that every party, every government lies, cheats, steals, and lies some more. Are you satisfied with that, or are you an adult who's willing to ask okay, what's more? Neckbeards don't know this because they spend their day in the basement, dwelling in pessimism, think about how bad the government is. But there are MAJOR and truly tangible things that happen both with internal and international policies when governments change. I'll give you examples: Taxes: Depending on who you vote for, the tax code can and WILL change, a lot. Neckbeards don't know this because of their lack of financial responsibilities. Budget: The budget of the US changes DRAMATICALLY depending on who's elected. The focus is different. Neckbeards don't know this because they're busy thinking about how bad the government is. Do you think this is minor? Billions of dollars are moved all over the place. People lose jobs, others get jobs - sometimes jobs are lost, other times jobs are gained. This is huge, and lives are changed completely by this. Just because it's not you doesn't mean the US is not affected. Moral stuff: Ask homosexuals and blacks. They'll tell you that some governments work much harder to provoke social change. I'll use an example that I've actually studied: Research done by my uni showed that riot police is a LOT more aggressive under a conservative government than it is under a liberal government. Similar things happen in the US depending on who's in charge. Think about the abortion debate, gay marriage, capital punishment to name a few (out of hundreds). International stuff: Do you honestly think that Bush and Obama's administration have the same sort of behavior when it comes down to wars, globalization/protectionism, etc. Economic policies: Night and fucking day. Do you think the republicans would have handled the recession in the same way? Come on! Environmental policies: [More obvious stuff that YOU KNOW ABOUT] ... What about Obamacare, that's billions of dollars. Changes people's lives. What about Medicare. Social security changed lives and civil rights. The clean air act. Reagan's gutting of financial regulations had massive repercussions for everyone in the US but also in the world. I could list you examples for hours. "Oh it's all the same". This sounds like an insult but go read a book. Literally start reading things if you want to be able to be competent at these conversations. Don't just dump crude and unrefined feelings at us. Being pessimistic is fine, complaining about the lack of parties is fine, but to say that electing the democrats or the republicans makes no difference is to be willfully ignorant or just grossly dishonest. And the idea that communist and authoritarian governments don't lie to their population is just fucking laughable, pardon my language. " [Communist and authoritarian governments] don't lie about freedom and show you true persons on the wheel of governing". Hilarious: (For the sake of clarity, I'm saying that authoritarian and communist governments also lie just as much if not more. Just mostly about different topics). To answer your question, yes I "truthfully think that elections of parties or presidents change" things. Not only because this is my field of study and I know a thing or two, but also because if one applies themselves to look into it instead of spewing cookie-cutter nonsense, they will see that there are huge differences between the democrats and the republicans in the US. If you want to complain about your government, learn about it, and trust me you WILL find hundreds, thousands of legitimate reasons to complain and to be outraged. Legitimate reasons. hahaha, i think that was a rhetorical question from him... i think he would more likely appreciate all the effort you put into your post and point without all the aggressiveness. ..neckbeards? hahaha i think it's a bit too soon to call someone out like that; as far as i know, you're both still complete strangers to one another. but i agree this this sentiment very, very much: Show nested quote +If you want to complain about your government, learn about it, and trust me you WILL find hundreds, thousands of legitimate reasons to complain and to be outraged. Legitimate reasons.
It was rhetorical yes, but I'm pretty sure that he does seriously think (like many people) that republicans and democrats are all the same in practice, which is not the case at all - even though the American sky doesn't change colors.
As for the neckbeards thing, I meant that as a generality =)
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Northern Ireland22480 Posts
On August 12 2012 09:46 Zahir wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2012 09:27 Gnarg wrote:
The real problem with this if its true would be the secrecy. In a democracy big decisions about privacy and security should be made in public space, otherwise its not much of a democracy at all. Agreed. Big difference between law enforcement and the judiciary running a surveillance network, open to media and public debate/scrutiny, with laws in place to protect the populace... And the intel agencies running it, selling shit to corporations, and doing god knows what else. "they won't care about me" yeah ok, go look up the red scare and mk ultra. CIA and FBI are well known for their propensity for fucking around with completely random individuals just to learn things, and blackmailing/intimidating large swaths of the population. I dislike how people completely ignore the past and assume that for some reason, this time the government contractors and spooks won't use their shiny new toy on completely innocent folk or random leftists.
The 'I don't care, won't affect me' crew blow my mind, or at least parts of them.
Some of the same people, the same posters who have complained about stuff like a public healthcare option, or gun control being 'intrusive government', are ok with this kind of surveillance mechanism?
It's not the positions I agree/disagree (necessarily) with, but it's the inherent contradictions on having such seemingly irreconcilable viewpoints, I really don't get it.
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On August 12 2012 10:55 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2012 10:25 M4nkind wrote:On August 12 2012 10:12 Djzapz wrote:On August 12 2012 10:01 M4nkind wrote:On August 12 2012 09:46 Zahir wrote:On August 12 2012 09:27 Gnarg wrote:
The real problem with this if its true would be the secrecy. In a democracy big decisions about privacy and security should be made in public space, otherwise its not much of a democracy at all. Agreed. Big difference between law enforcement and the judiciary running a surveillance network, open to media and public debate/scrutiny, with laws in place to protect the populace... And the intel agencies running it, selling shit to corporations, and doing god knows what else. "they won't care about me" yeah ok, go look up the red scare and mk ultra. CIA and FBI are well known for their propensity for fucking around with completely random individuals just to learn things, and blackmailing/intimidating large swaths of the population. I dislike how people completely ignore the past and assume that for some reason, this time the government contractors and spooks won't use their shiny new toy on completely innocent folk or random leftists. Democracy and freedom is a lie. No one would be stupid enough to let masses of people rule. That's why the masses don't rule, they elect people to rule for them. Right, and we have huge variety of uncontrolled people to elect. You truthfully think that elections of parties or presidents change anything? No "secret powers behind governments" want for people to have free will and do what they want. Thats why I love authoritarian regimes or communism, because they don't lie about freedom and show you true persons on the wheel of governing, where democracy has governments disguising in disguises and lies. I've seen that uneducated ramble so many times, I'm getting tired of the ignorance. Let me drop some knowledge upon you. Just a little bit so you won't get bored of reading. I'm doing this even though you'll refuse to take it because of your absolutist vision of politics, which is completely faulty. You have a small variety of largely controlled people to elect, and they're confined to a pretty strict division of the 3 types of power, and everything is kept pretty well in checks and balances which have done a reasonable job so far. Before I start, I want to concede something to you, but that's only because you limit your vision of politics to this, and I want to get your narrow mind to expand beyond this frankly childish vision of the world. It is true that every party, every government lies, cheats, steals, and lies some more. Are you satisfied with that, or are you an adult who's willing to ask okay, what's more? Neckbeards don't know this because they spend their day in the basement, dwelling in pessimism, think about how bad the government is. But there are MAJOR and truly tangible things that happen both with internal and international policies when governments change. I'll give you examples: Taxes: Depending on who you vote for, the tax code can and WILL change, a lot. Neckbeards don't know this because of their lack of financial responsibilities. Budget: The budget of the US changes DRAMATICALLY depending on who's elected. The focus is different. Neckbeards don't know this because they're busy thinking about how bad the government is. Do you think this is minor? Billions of dollars are moved all over the place. People lose jobs, others get jobs - sometimes jobs are lost, other times jobs are gained. This is huge, and lives are changed completely by this. Just because it's not you doesn't mean the US is not affected. Moral stuff: Ask homosexuals and blacks. They'll tell you that some governments work much harder to provoke social change. I'll use an example that I've actually studied: Research done by my uni showed that riot police is a LOT more aggressive under a conservative government than it is under a liberal government. Similar things happen in the US depending on who's in charge. Think about the abortion debate, gay marriage, capital punishment to name a few (out of hundreds). International stuff: Do you honestly think that Bush and Obama's administration have the same sort of behavior when it comes down to wars, globalization/protectionism, etc. Economic policies: Night and fucking day. Do you think the republicans would have handled the recession in the same way? Come on! Environmental policies: [More obvious stuff that YOU KNOW ABOUT] ... What about Obamacare, that's billions of dollars. Changes people's lives. What about Medicare. Social security changed lives and civil rights. The clean air act. Reagan's gutting of financial regulations had massive repercussions for everyone in the US but also in the world. I could list you examples for hours. "Oh it's all the same". This sounds like an insult but go read a book. Literally start reading things if you want to be able to be competent at these conversations. Don't just dump crude and unrefined feelings at us. Being pessimistic is fine, complaining about the lack of parties is fine, but to say that electing the democrats or the republicans makes no difference is to be willfully ignorant or just grossly dishonest. And the idea that communist and authoritarian governments don't lie to their population is just fucking laughable, pardon my language. " [Communist and authoritarian governments] don't lie about freedom and show you true persons on the wheel of governing". Hilarious: (For the sake of clarity, I'm saying that authoritarian and communist governments also lie just as much if not more. Just mostly about different topics). To answer your question, yes I "truthfully think that elections of parties or presidents change" things. Not only because this is my field of study and I know a thing or two, but also because if one applies themselves to look into it instead of spewing cookie-cutter nonsense, they will see that there are huge differences between the democrats and the republicans in the US. If you want to complain about your government, learn about it, and trust me you WILL find hundreds, thousands of legitimate reasons to complain and to be outraged. Legitimate reasons.
But all choices done by governments are not for the good of common folk like 80% of time. They are done to make their supporters happy. And what are their supporters? All those companies that can buy secret info they want. And they do have right - they paid to have governing rights behind the scene.
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All these people bitching at the "So what?" crowd is killing me. What would you like us to do? Go grab my gun? Meet up in thousands? Storm DC? Please, elaborate. Or are we just supposed to agree with you as we all bask in the faint glow of our monitors with our tin foil hats while discussing how much this is bad? Are we supposed to be afraid of what we can't stop?Everyday paranoid more than the last.
Please, explain it too me, because I am not going to sit here worried to death over something that is not affecting me right now.
On topic: I think there are many things that can be drawn from this leak, why are we all assuming the worse?
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On August 12 2012 10:33 Areon wrote:
So we have the technology and hardware to monitor many places in the nation for people of interest and a dedicated team of people working to combat illegal activity with the serious potential for terrorism. Explain to me how the fuck is this a bad thing? Are people idiots or does everyone suddenly support terrorism? Last time I checked people liked the concept of world peace, so why the fuck in God's name would counter-terrorism be scorned? Jesus Christ people need to wake up and stop being such hypocrites. Especially considering that you honestly have absolutely no reason to give a shit as long as you aren't a wanted criminal. And people never really seem to give a shit about breaking the law, so I don't see why that would cause a problem either.
And if this holy government entity made these little chips that it would implant under your skin so it can track everything you do 24/7 you would be okay with that? After all, we need to destroy these evil muslim guys before they destroy us.
You sound a bit brainwashed imo :S
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EPT
