|
Preface: About a year ago, I left the balance council chat for a few reasons:
1) Dissatisfaction with the process, decision-making, and overall design priorities within the chat.
2) I am fully retired, and my "qualifications" for being in the chat were debatable even when I was still active.
The facts:
1) Players were invited to join based on EPT points from either the year the chat was created (2020 or 2021) or the previous year. Some players declined the invitation and some players have left the chat or do not participate actively. I am not exactly sure what the EPT point requirements were to be invited but i would estimate it at ~top 10-20 from each region.
2) Initially, the council operated democratically: all voices were heard, and we voted on each change with open discussion. Later, the process shifted to a "representative" system, with two representatives for each race. I’m unsure who the current representatives are.
3) As a result of the invitation process, you can probably guess the race distribution. Let’s just say Protoss players are definitely well represented.
4) In my observation, Terran players were the most vocal and active in discussions, often fiercely advocating for their race. At times, I found their arguments to be unreasonable, as they seemed unwilling to consider other races perspectives. Protoss players were generally more reasonable (perhaps too reasonable, as reflected in the latest patch), while most top Zerg players very rarely participated in discussions.
5) From my experience, there was a clear power hierarchy in the chat. Only higher-level players or those deemed "smart" had their ideas seriously considered. This, in my opinion, led to several issues: pros advocating for changes that benefited them or their race specifically, a lack of long-term vision or cohesive direction for patches, and a general absence of multiple perspectives and creative ideas.
|
Canada8989 Posts
Oh interesting.
Out of curiosity, how did it work for players in China and KR who don't necessarily have conversational-level English (at least it seems that way to us)? Did they took part in the discussions?
|
The idea of "voting" for changes is so incredibly dump. We can't view changes in isolation.
I do not get why they don't just let a couple of casters make the decisions. Yes these guys aren't perfect but you won't get too obvious bias'es.
|
What do you think would be the best way to give everyone an equal voice so someone who's a certified yapper doesn't run the show?
|
Thanks for the info!
I am surprise the terran pros are always fighting for buffs for their race and nerfs to other races (ironically it’s the same in the community where the terran fans are the loudest)
Just another example how classy we toss players are  .
But seriously this Wombat patch really sucks in general for toss
I can already imagine this council meeting in my head
Someone like TY representing the terran and asking for buff and nerds
herO agreeing to changes since he is nice as long as they don’t change my stalkers
Dark representing Zerg who just go “meh”, I don’t play standard anyways so I don’t give a fuck”
|
On October 24 2024 04:12 HeavenSC wrote:
What do you think would be the best way to give everyone an equal voice so someone who's a certified yapper doesn't run the show?
idk who you're referring to but if you want a serious answer: there needs to be one or a few people, who are ideally unbiased (not progamers) yet still have a clear understanding of the game's core issues. This person(s) would then lead the direction of the changes to tackle these core issues, with a progamer council advising and giving ideas for changes.
Essentially we need a "david kim" + the progamer council. I believe that would lead to the best changes to the game.
Unfortunately at the current state of sc2 support, this is pretty much a pipe dream.
|
United States33502 Posts
Bit of a rehash from the other thread, but it seems like a leadership problem that's unavoidable.
Blizzard used to have a full-time balance team that took in pro opinions (which was just as biased and self-interested as it is now), tried to figure out what was relevant, and made what they thought were appropriate changes.
It seems like ESL knows they don't have the time/expertise to function like Blizzard, so they tried to give some more agency to the players. And, as a result, you end up exacerbating the downsides of this kind of collaborative endeavor (politicking, apathy, etc).
In the end, we're not going to get full-time devs back on the game, so I think ESL is still best placed to manage all this since they have actual employees who are broadly in charge of competitive StarCraft 2. Of course, they could stand to refine the process.
Also, since people have short memories, it's not like we were all happy when Blizzard was taking a more active role. They still put out patches people took issue with, and you got plenty of complaints from pros who said their feedback wasn't being heeded. Let's not look at one (seemingly) bad patch from ESL/Balance council and make that referendum on the whole endeavor, even if the process can be improved.
|
The worst person you know makes a great point 
|
On October 24 2024 01:21 Hider wrote:
I do not get why they don't just let a couple of casters make the decisions. Yes these guys aren't perfect but you won't get too obvious bias'es.
Are there still full-time casters that are high level enough? Rotti and Pig are high level but they are no longer full time, they are variety streamers, same thing with ZG.
People need to stop suggesting this, I'm sure they care about the game but the number would be too small for there not to be bias in their decisions.
|
On October 24 2024 08:45 Lexender wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2024 01:21 Hider wrote:
I do not get why they don't just let a couple of casters make the decisions. Yes these guys aren't perfect but you won't get too obvious bias'es. Are there still full-time casters that are high level enough? Rotti and Pig are high level but they are no longer full time, they are variety streamers, same thing with ZG. People need to stop suggesting this, I'm sure they care about the game but the number would be too small for there not to be bias in their decisions.
Pig is more than high level enough, he's like what, top 50 GM NA? Why would we ever listen to clem, cure and serral but not listen to pig? I honestly don't think they can offer much of any knowledge that would help the community that someone like pig can't.
The knowledge these extremely high tiny portion of players have doesn't affect 99% of the playerbase. Balancing for .1% of the playerbase and shitting on the rest is a surefire way to kill the game.
|
On October 24 2024 12:16 sidasf wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2024 08:45 Lexender wrote:On October 24 2024 01:21 Hider wrote:
I do not get why they don't just let a couple of casters make the decisions. Yes these guys aren't perfect but you won't get too obvious bias'es. Are there still full-time casters that are high level enough? Rotti and Pig are high level but they are no longer full time, they are variety streamers, same thing with ZG. People need to stop suggesting this, I'm sure they care about the game but the number would be too small for there not to be bias in their decisions. Pig is more than high level enough, he's like what, top 50 GM NA? Why would we ever listen to clem, cure and serral but not listen to pig? I honestly don't think they can offer much of any knowledge that would help the community that someone like pig can't. The knowledge these extremely high tiny portion of players have doesn't affect 99% of the playerbase. Balancing for .1% of the playerbase and shitting on the rest is a surefire way to kill the game.
This. It is just really difficult to balance the game for "everyone" without having issues in the highest level of play.
|
Thank you for this look inside the council.
On October 24 2024 01:03 RiSkysc2 wrote:
4) In my observation, Terran players were the most vocal and active in discussions, often fiercely advocating for their race. At times, I found their arguments to be unreasonable, as they seemed unwilling to consider other races perspectives.
Revealing, but not surprising, given the content of the patches.
|
On October 24 2024 08:45 Lexender wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2024 01:21 Hider wrote:
I do not get why they don't just let a couple of casters make the decisions. Yes these guys aren't perfect but you won't get too obvious bias'es. Are there still full-time casters that are high level enough? Rotti and Pig are high level but they are no longer full time, they are variety streamers, same thing with ZG. People need to stop suggesting this, I'm sure they care about the game but the number would be too small for there not to be bias in their decisions.
Skill level isn't the only marker of game knowledge.
In any case, pro players have shown that they can't prevent their own self interest from clouding their decision making.
We should revert back to the patch prior to the balance council taking over. It's a failed experiment.
|
Active players should never have any say in current game balance in any game, ever. This whole thing sounds insane.
|
Terran playing actively arguing for their race, protoss players showing up but not putting any effort in, and zerg players not even trying (and still winning) is the most lore-accurate representation for a balance council we could have asked for
|
Is there any way to give suggestion to the balance council. I am not a pro player or any known player, but I suggest that the balancing should be made around making the game easier for the casuals. The game is really hard for beginners and pushes people away from a hard game as starcraft. What is the point of trying so hard to make all changes only focus on pro play when a few changes that would make the game easier for everyone would bring more players in. Starcraft looks like a pretty dead game some would say, but what is the direct competition to SC2 tho ? Just focus on making new players to feel more like playing a 1 vs 1 instead of 1 vs 2 where he needs to defeat the enemy and his inability to macro and micro properly at the same time. I seen the recent changes for the next patch: make sensor towers lower range and make hydras use dashes. This makes game just makes harder for all players that aren't hardcore players. Also changing units then reverting the changes over and over. I think one good idea that would affect positively all low elo players would be to add map pings to show where mineral and gas geysers get depleted. Also when bases get over saturated, make the extra workers on gas or minerals appear as idle so they can be selected from the idle worker hotkey.
|
On October 24 2024 18:37 M3t4PhYzX wrote:
Active players should never have any say in current game balance in any game, ever. This whole thing sounds insane.
In very optimal cicumstances, this is true. In Starcrafts case however, things are far from optimal, since we dont have active development team anymore. However, I do think that players should have a voice to present concerns and ideas for how to develop the game forward. They just shouldnt be able to make the final decisions about it.
What would be better solution for now then ? Casters would be one good addition to the team. However, like said in previous posts, there arent that many left. Maybe a team of Rotti, Pig, Lowko, Steadfast, Wardi, ZG and even Winter would be a fun addition to the supply. In addition, I really have always loved the discussions and ideas about balance from Lambo and Harstem. They at least seem to be able to take account for other than their own races when balance is included. Of course they arent neutral observers by any means, but would be good for the balance team to have aboard.
So, here is my suggestion for the renewed balance team. For players, I would take two or three people from each race to the team. These members are chosen by casters team and are recycled in certain periods to give bit larger playerbase chance to take part to the decicions.
Team one, players(for example); Lambo/Reynor/Solar, Harstem/Hero/MaxPax, HeroMarine/Maru/Byun.
Team two, casters; Rotti, Pig, Lowko, Steadfast, Wardi, ZG, Winter, Catz.
Deciding process could be something like; Players present ideas/buffs/nerfs to the Casters. Casters go through the suggestions, modify them as they seem fit and return the package to Players. Players can have one final OPINION if something seems too drastic or wrong, and after that the new Patch will be introduced to test servers.
|
On October 24 2024 12:16 sidasf wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2024 08:45 Lexender wrote:On October 24 2024 01:21 Hider wrote:
I do not get why they don't just let a couple of casters make the decisions. Yes these guys aren't perfect but you won't get too obvious bias'es. Are there still full-time casters that are high level enough? Rotti and Pig are high level but they are no longer full time, they are variety streamers, same thing with ZG. People need to stop suggesting this, I'm sure they care about the game but the number would be too small for there not to be bias in their decisions. Pig is more than high level enough, he's like what, top 50 GM NA? Why would we ever listen to clem, cure and serral but not listen to pig? I honestly don't think they can offer much of any knowledge that would help the community that someone like pig can't.
Casters would be a good addition to the council, I agree, but as I said, most of them aren't full time or even close in either playing or streaming, so it's hard to think they will be some miracle saving grace. Plus player feedback has been a staple since the times of David Kim, this isn't something new. Not to mention I doubt casters (wich are basicaly streamers nos) are going to just do work like this for free.
There needs to be some structuring to make the process more defined but I don't think we are going to have anything else.
|
Catz is making his own rts no? Conflict of interest. Lowko, pig, steadfast, etc sture
|
Does balance council work with numbers? or do you have access to numbers?
Example : League of Legends I remember a developer who justified buff/ nerf with numbers.
Discussing with terran in general is the same:
other:change xy? T: No, it's necessary.
other: just a little bit? T: No, Terran hardest race.
other: how then? T: let's nerf z/P first and see how it turns out.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
