Edit: Goddamn even in the no makeup 2ne1 pic minzy is still totally my girl. Most of the korean celebrity pics ive seen leave me pretty cold but that girl is the love of my life.
On March 19 2012 06:23 Lexpar wrote: Pretty neat article. The minutia of other cultures is always so interesting to me. I knew that in SK was stuck in something that resembled western-90s pop culture, but had no idea what extent people my age were going through to look good there. Are all young Koreans really obsessed with looks? I know people here in Montreal who are fairly obsessed (artificial tanning, hair extensions, nose-jobs), but I think the vast majority of people I know don't really care (or at least the style is to look like you don't care).
Even very good looking girls (unless their look-obsessed) usually only have a few outfits they wear, and long messy hair has always been popular/sexy here.
Maybe it's the french aspect- but wearing jeans and a wool/leather jacket, unkempt hair, and stubble has always been the height of male sexiness here.
o.0, i must be hot shit in Canda^^ no but seriously, it sounds awesome in Canada I want to go there :=)
On March 20 2012 07:52 See.Blue wrote: Fascinating thread, thanks!
Edit: Goddamn even in the no makeup 2ne1 pic minzy is still totally my girl. Most of the korean celebrity pics ive seen leave me pretty cold but that girl is the love of my life.
On March 20 2012 01:18 Diglett wrote: would the ppl that know korea take at look at this video?
how much of it is true? tbh this kind of attitude is very bad for mental and emotional health -_-. how and why did korean culture develop in such a fashion?
Yea, the white girl (Kelly?) is also pretty good at Korean, seems like she managed to capture a good bit of what goes on in school in Korea. I'm just gonna focus on the bit about academics. There are some pros along with the cons of such an intense academic setting: Korean students are incredibly disciplined and driven and generally carry a higher expectation in terms of achievement in life. The major con, however, is they almost always get burned out after entering college, and that's why you see everybody getting shitfaced 24/7 and getting academic suspensions left and right. When I came to America, the general lack of pressure and academic rigor shocked me: although it ensures kids don't get burned out from an early age, the base level of education for the majority of kids in the US lacks severely. For example, most Koreans who studied through high school have a comprehensive level of knowledge in a wide array of subjects, such as Korean and international history (to the level of being able to recite all the major newpaper headlines that were printed verbatim given any year in the last century), national and global geography (For example I remember having to memorize all the countries and capitals in Africa and reproduce them given a blank picture of the continent in 7th grade), English, another foreign language, ethics, math, all subjects of science, and even art/art history and music theory. The level of math high school students learn in America is elementary school level math for the smarter kids in Korea, so by "comprehensive level of knowledge" I mean enough to carry a full conversation in that subject for more than 5 minutes. They really don't mess around; studying in the US is child's play, and I mean that in the most non-disrespectful way possible.
I hate to look like an asshole, but I feel like this is whats wrong with this thread. You are being way to sensationalist and generalize everything to the extent where people get the wrong idea. If anyone watches this video they will see that most teenagers in SK look just normal, some go for plastic surgery, some dont, but as a result you wont see a strange-looking crowd full of refugee actors - it still looks normal for the most part. I think OP is so entrenched in all of this he's bypassing the fact that not everyone, possible not even a majority of the population (especially males) is crazy about plastic surgeries, excessive skincare products and hidden heels in their footwear. Maybe it is often true for Seoul, but Seoul is not Korea. I am very skeptical about all of this simply given some of my own experience (I could be wrong but I feel pretty strong about my points).
So basically same goes for the quoted post. I say its bs. I've studied all of that too, pre-university education is indeed way more intense in most civilized countries outside of US, that doesn't mean that random koreans will be able to name capitals of the world or be proficient with every other subject they took up at school. Thats simply not how it works, most of the filler you get at school is gone once you are done with it. Really good students with developed long-term memory will have some leftovers, but there are kids like that everywhere. Best example is English - koreans often study it FOR 11 YEARS and in absolute majority of cases are complete failures at it. I've studied English starting 5th grade in a non-english speaking country with 0 chance to use or experience it outside my class (basically early internet days) and I can vouch that my every classmate came out no better or worse than average korean (given experience once again I'd say most koreans are way worse off in this regard upon graduating, but this is purely anecdotal)
Inability to speak a language you've been studying for 11 years even on a very basic level is something I'm not going to leave unnoticed. Because everything else is the same way, probably aside from math (something that will come and stay for good given the amount of practice they receive). Inability to have your own sense of style and not having to act like everyone else represents a certain level of thinking ability and individuality too, which is what school helps us develop under normal circumstances. Also, don't be clumping all Western countries together, besides high scores on math olympiads koreans are not really dominating sciences. Its just a wishful thinking.
You have a valid point, and plenty of stuff in the OP dug into the extremities of each emerging trend, but it's all true. Also, most of the OP doesn't apply to pre-college teens, who have limited freedom in terms of polishing their looks. OP was targeted at young adults in their early twenties, and they flock to Seoul, so in that sense, Seoul is Korea.
Is there a reason Korean progamers seem way worse than any other foreigner when it comes to speaking english? I mean even the french guys (Stephano, Carn, ToD) speak english in stream and interviews all the time and god knows French are bad with english! Only very few Koreans seem to try and speak english?
If we use the difference between Korean and English as a standard for two separate languages, French and English are dialects. The difference is not comparable.
They're still separate languages ...
The only thing you can say is that since they're both Indo-European languages, it may be easier for a French speaker to learn English than it is for a Korean speaker to learn English, but a lot of it depends on the individual person's language learning ability and the amount of time and effort they put into the language. I mean, it's definitely true that when you swap language families, you have to construct a whole new framework in which to work and process the grammar, but that's just basic understanding, and it comes really fast if you work at it. If you really, really want to learn a language, you can and you will. Take Lyn, for instance (Korean War3/SC2 hybrid player atm living in China); he's pretty much fluent in English and is learning Chinese (which he's getting pretty damn good at), but that's because he sets apart a bit of his day to actually learn Chinese. ReMinD (also a hybrid War3/SC2 player living in China atm) is pretty much the same way, with his Chinese being a little better than Lyn's from what I can remember. All in all, it pretty much comes down to how much work you're willing to put in. Most Koreans (especially those who came from the BW scene rather than the more international War3 scene) didn't really see the benefit in it, though that's changing now of course, since SC2 is also way more international.
Just my two cents. As a native English speaker, I actually think French and Spanish are incredibly difficult to learn, Russian easier, and Korean slightly easier than Russian from what I can tell so far. Most native English speakers would rate those languages the other way around, of course, but again, it's on a case-by-case basis.
On March 19 2012 06:23 Lexpar wrote: Pretty neat article. The minutia of other cultures is always so interesting to me. I knew that in SK was stuck in something that resembled western-90s pop culture, but had no idea what extent people my age were going through to look good there. Are all young Koreans really obsessed with looks? I know people here in Montreal who are fairly obsessed (artificial tanning, hair extensions, nose-jobs), but I think the vast majority of people I know don't really care (or at least the style is to look like you don't care).
Even very good looking girls (unless their look-obsessed) usually only have a few outfits they wear, and long messy hair has always been popular/sexy here.
Maybe it's the french aspect- but wearing jeans and a wool/leather jacket, unkempt hair, and stubble has always been the height of male sexiness here.
o.0, i must be hot shit in Canda^^ no but seriously, it sounds awesome in Canada I want to go there :=)
Great job on the thread. Girls have it pretty rough while men have their work cut out for them. Just like in every country or culture they all have different social standards or ways that they try to improve their appearance.
Great blog rotinegg! I think the biggest problem is that there is a big western schema of what plastic surgery is: a puffy-faced, squinty-eyed, plastic looking thing -- like something you would see on the Real Housewives of Orange County (or any show alike). But from what I've seen of Korean plastic surgery, it's not (overall) as dramatic. My ex-girlfriend used to tell me of all the little things her friends (and even her brother) got done and most commonly it was the double eye-lid one which was more for health reasons than aesthetics.
I'm wondering though, does the western "plastification" image that is associated with plastic surgery resonate with Koreans? In other words, if a Korean were to compare a Korean celebrity who has had plastic surgery with someone, lets say Hiedi Montag, would they lump it all in as just plastic surgery, or would they differentiate?
I hate to look like an asshole, but I feel like this is whats wrong with this thread. You are being way to sensationalist and generalize everything to the extent where people get the wrong idea. If anyone watches this video they will see that most teenagers in SK look just normal, some go for plastic surgery, some dont, but as a result you wont see a strange-looking crowd full of refugee actors - it still looks normal for the most part. I think OP is so entrenched in all of this he's bypassing the fact that not everyone, possible not even a majority of the population (especially males) is crazy about plastic surgeries, excessive skincare products and hidden heels in their footwear. Maybe it is often true for Seoul, but Seoul is not Korea. I am very skeptical about all of this simply given some of my own experience (I could be wrong but I feel pretty strong about my points). .
I couldn't have said it better!
First I thought I was in allkpop.com with all the generalization and stereotypes especially from people that has never lived in Korea and yes this includes Koreans living oversea. To be quite honest, these are stuff you see in red herring and not what I would expect in teamliquid.
This is no different than saying how all americans are fat, lazy, arrogant, and ignorant when in reality most americans are hard working and friendly people like in everywhere else.
As ecstatica said it perfectly, reality is, majority of the population don't to plastic surgery especially males, it's actually quite rare among men. Also, normal Korean people don't bluntly make fun of each other based on their apperance. It's actually opposite since Koreans aren't normally as open minded as westerners in expressing their emotions. They might do it jokingly with their close firends but rarely ever infront of people outside of that circle and this includes co-workers. Maybe in the internet but people will say anything behind a computer.
I'll admit that plastic surgery is much more common among females in Korea but the way the OP presents it, it's over exaggeration. Most common surgery is the simple double eye-lid surgery (which can be equivalent of braces in the states) and most of them don't go beyond that since other surgeries as nose jobs are still considered somewhat dangerous.
Also, keep in mind that the increase numbers of plastic surgeries recently can mostly be contributed to foreign patients that make up to 30-50% depending on the clinics.
If you check the numbers before the medical tourism boom, S.Korea wasn't that much higher than other developed Asian countries like Japan, Hong Kong, etc.
Sure I'm not denying the fact that Koreans do tend to be little bit more aware of how they look and how they dress but they are nowhere near the superficial shallow racist idiots that look down on anyone with even the slightest dark complexion. With all due respect to whoever wrote the OP I don't think he ever lived a day in Korea. Those are stuff that you see in internet on naver, daum, and nate, and doesn't really represent the people that actually live in South Korea.
Even among the celebrities there are alot of them that haven't went under knife. Nothing more amusing than a self-defeatist attitude that somehow Asians can never look pretty without going under a surgery.
I have nothing against the OP but just want people to know that there is always two-sides of the story. This is coming from someone who was born and raised in S.Korea.
Upon second thought it might be better to just talk in private
I don't have any sources for the OP because I wrote it from my experiences of living in Korea from 1st to 9th grade and spending my vacations at home in 분당/서울, where I still live.
I don't completely disagree with you but I do feel like you exaggerated it a little bit. I don't deny the fact that Koreans do tend to put more time on their looks and how they dress etc. This isn't really a bad thing but I do feel like you presented in a negative way. Koreans are also obsessed with cleanness. In fact you are more likely to be a target of being dirty than ugly.
As for racism I personally think it's more misunderstanding than anything else and I don't think it's as bad as people say it is if you consider the fact that Korea is probably the most homogenous society the world. You seem to have a different view but it's understandable since your experience in Korea were mostly in your childhood years. Well kids can be immature and they don't tell the whole story. Like at my work place, people are very careful of what they say and try not to offend anyone.
I read your PM and I don't think you had any bad intention so I apologize if I went too aggressive with the issue. You definitely did made some good point minus the over exaggeration but I guess I'm little bit tired of the left wing biased media here that tends blow everything out of proportion.
As others have said, please don't take the word of the OP as 100% truth about Korean culture. Especially not the part where koreans are condescending on people who don't have brand name stuff because that means they're 'poor' and that there is rampant discrimination against poor people (all that just isn't actually true, and it's unacceptable to say it's true of most people).
Some of the OP is well-written and relevant - if you're going to take anything away, take that Korean culture is one where looks are important, and where aesthetics are valued. It's also a culture on the cusp of transition.
But please don't leave this thread accepting the rest of the OP as fact. It isn't, and it's a disservice to Korean culture to say so. It's simply his opinion.
how much of it is true? tbh this kind of attitude is very bad for mental and emotional health -_-. how and why did korean culture develop in such a fashion?
Yea, the white girl (Kelly?) is also pretty good at Korean, seems like she managed to capture a good bit of what goes on in school in Korea. I'm just gonna focus on the bit about academics. There are some pros along with the cons of such an intense academic setting: Korean students are incredibly disciplined and driven and generally carry a higher expectation in terms of achievement in life. The major con, however, is they almost always get burned out after entering college, and that's why you see everybody getting shitfaced 24/7 and getting academic suspensions left and right. When I came to America, the general lack of pressure and academic rigor shocked me: although it ensures kids don't get burned out from an early age, the base level of education for the majority of kids in the US lacks severely. For example, most Koreans who studied through high school have a comprehensive level of knowledge in a wide array of subjects, such as Korean and international history (to the level of being able to recite all the major newpaper headlines that were printed verbatim given any year in the last century), national and global geography (For example I remember having to memorize all the countries and capitals in Africa and reproduce them given a blank picture of the continent in 7th grade), English, another foreign language, ethics, math, all subjects of science, and even art/art history and music theory. The level of math high school students learn in America is elementary school level math for the smarter kids in Korea, so by "comprehensive level of knowledge" I mean enough to carry a full conversation in that subject for more than 5 minutes. They really don't mess around; studying in the US is child's play, and I mean that in the most non-disrespectful way possible.
I hate to look like an asshole, but I feel like this is whats wrong with this thread. You are being way to sensationalist and generalize everything to the extent where people get the wrong idea. If anyone watches this video they will see that most teenagers in SK look just normal, some go for plastic surgery, some dont, but as a result you wont see a strange-looking crowd full of refugee actors - it still looks normal for the most part. I think OP is so entrenched in all of this he's bypassing the fact that not everyone, possible not even a majority of the population (especially males) is crazy about plastic surgeries, excessive skincare products and hidden heels in their footwear. Maybe it is often true for Seoul, but Seoul is not Korea. I am very skeptical about all of this simply given some of my own experience (I could be wrong but I feel pretty strong about my points).
So basically same goes for the quoted post. I say its bs. I've studied all of that too, pre-university education is indeed way more intense in most civilized countries outside of US, that doesn't mean that random koreans will be able to name capitals of the world or be proficient with every other subject they took up at school. Thats simply not how it works, most of the filler you get at school is gone once you are done with it. Really good students with developed long-term memory will have some leftovers, but there are kids like that everywhere. Best example is English - koreans often study it FOR 11 YEARS and in absolute majority of cases are complete failures at it. I've studied English starting 5th grade in a non-english speaking country with 0 chance to use or experience it outside my class (basically early internet days) and I can vouch that my every classmate came out no better or worse than average korean (given experience once again I'd say most koreans are way worse off in this regard upon graduating, but this is purely anecdotal)
Inability to speak a language you've been studying for 11 years even on a very basic level is something I'm not going to leave unnoticed. Because everything else is the same way, probably aside from math (something that will come and stay for good given the amount of practice they receive). Inability to have your own sense of style and not having to act like everyone else represents a certain level of thinking ability and individuality too, which is what school helps us develop under normal circumstances. Also, don't be clumping all Western countries together, besides high scores on math olympiads koreans are not really dominating sciences. Its just a wishful thinking.
You have a valid point, and plenty of stuff in the OP dug into the extremities of each emerging trend, but it's all true. Also, most of the OP doesn't apply to pre-college teens, who have limited freedom in terms of polishing their looks. OP was targeted at young adults in their early twenties, and they flock to Seoul, so in that sense, Seoul is Korea.
Is there a reason Korean progamers seem way worse than any other foreigner when it comes to speaking english? I mean even the french guys (Stephano, Carn, ToD) speak english in stream and interviews all the time and god knows French are bad with english! Only very few Koreans seem to try and speak english?
If we use the difference between Korean and English as a standard for two separate languages, French and English are dialects. The difference is not comparable.
They're still separate languages ...
The only thing you can say is that since they're both Indo-European languages, it may be easier for a French speaker to learn English than it is for a Korean speaker to learn English, but a lot of it depends on the individual person's language learning ability and the amount of time and effort they put into the language. I mean, it's definitely true that when you swap language families, you have to construct a whole new framework in which to work and process the grammar, but that's just basic understanding, and it comes really fast if you work at it. If you really, really want to learn a language, you can and you will. Take Lyn, for instance (Korean War3/SC2 hybrid player atm living in China); he's pretty much fluent in English and is learning Chinese (which he's getting pretty damn good at), but that's because he sets apart a bit of his day to actually learn Chinese. ReMinD (also a hybrid War3/SC2 player living in China atm) is pretty much the same way, with his Chinese being a little better than Lyn's from what I can remember. All in all, it pretty much comes down to how much work you're willing to put in. Most Koreans (especially those who came from the BW scene rather than the more international War3 scene) didn't really see the benefit in it, though that's changing now of course, since SC2 is also way more international.
Just my two cents. As a native English speaker, I actually think French and Spanish are incredibly difficult to learn, Russian easier, and Korean slightly easier than Russian from what I can tell so far. Most native English speakers would rate those languages the other way around, of course, but again, it's on a case-by-case basis.
Ridiculous. I did 2 years of 1 hour a week of french over 15 years ago and can pretty much read any article on Le Monde. If Korean to English was as easy all these korean students studying it for 11 years would be fluent, and they clearly aren't.
I hate to look like an asshole, but I feel like this is whats wrong with this thread. You are being way to sensationalist and generalize everything to the extent where people get the wrong idea. If anyone watches this video they will see that most teenagers in SK look just normal, some go for plastic surgery, some dont, but as a result you wont see a strange-looking crowd full of refugee actors - it still looks normal for the most part. I think OP is so entrenched in all of this he's bypassing the fact that not everyone, possible not even a majority of the population (especially males) is crazy about plastic surgeries, excessive skincare products and hidden heels in their footwear. Maybe it is often true for Seoul, but Seoul is not Korea. I am very skeptical about all of this simply given some of my own experience (I could be wrong but I feel pretty strong about my points). .
I couldn't have said it better!
First I thought I was in allkpop.com with all the generalization and stereotypes especially from people that has never lived in Korea and yes this includes Koreans living oversea. To be quite honest, these are stuff you see in red herring and not what I would expect in teamliquid.
This is no different than saying how all americans are fat, lazy, arrogant, and ignorant when in reality most americans are hard working and friendly people like in everywhere else.
As ecstatica said it perfectly, reality is, majority of the population don't to plastic surgery especially males, it's actually quite rare among men. Also, normal Korean people don't bluntly make fun of each other based on their apperance. It's actually opposite since Koreans aren't normally as open minded as westerners in expressing their emotions. They might do it jokingly with their close firends but rarely ever infront of people outside of that circle and this includes co-workers. Maybe in the internet but people will say anything behind a computer.
I'll admit that plastic surgery is much more common among females in Korea but the way the OP presents it, it's over exaggeration. Most common surgery is the simple double eye-lid surgery (which can be equivalent of braces in the states) and most of them don't go beyond that since other surgeries as nose jobs are still considered somewhat dangerous.
Also, keep in mind that the increase numbers of plastic surgeries recently can mostly be contributed to foreign patients that make up to 30-50% depending on the clinics.
If you check the numbers before the medical tourism boom, S.Korea wasn't that much higher than other developed Asian countries like Japan, Hong Kong, etc.
Sure I'm not denying the fact that Koreans do tend to be little bit more aware of how they look and how they dress but they are nowhere near the superficial shallow racist idiots that look down on anyone with even the slightest dark complexion. With all due respect to whoever wrote the OP I don't think he ever lived a day in Korea. Those are stuff that you see in internet on naver, daum, and nate, and doesn't really represent the people that actually live in South Korea.
Even among the celebrities there are alot of them that haven't went under knife. Nothing more amusing than a self-defeatist attitude that somehow Asians can never look pretty without going under a surgery.
I have nothing against the OP but just want people to know that there is always two-sides of the story. This is coming from someone who was born and raised in S.Korea.
Upon second thought it might be better to just talk in private
I don't have any sources for the OP because I wrote it from my experiences of living in Korea from 1st to 9th grade and spending my vacations at home in 분당/서울, where I still live.
I don't completely disagree with you but I do feel like you exaggerated it a little bit. I don't deny the fact that Koreans do tend to put more time on their looks and how they dress etc. This isn't really a bad thing but I do feel like you presented in a negative way. Koreans are also obsessed with cleanness. In fact you are more likely to be a target of being dirty than ugly.
As for racism I personally think it's more misunderstanding than anything else and I don't think it's as bad as people say it is if you consider the fact that Korea is probably the most homogenous society the world. You seem to have a different view but it's understandable since your experience in Korea were mostly in your childhood years. Well kids can be immature and they don't tell the whole story. Like at my work place, people are very careful of what they say and try not to offend anyone.
I read your PM and I don't think you had any bad intention so I apologize if I went too aggressive with the issue. You definitely did made some good point minus the over exaggeration but I guess I'm little bit tired of the left wing biased media here that tends blow everything out of proportion.
I see, it's great to see some insight into the professional world of Korea, since I never got to experience that :p Like you said my experiences are limited to my school years, and after high school, pretty much all the time I spent was hanging out with friends during vacation. I guess I saw life in Korea through a spectacle since most of the time I spent with my friends was during the night hunting and clubbing. I don't doubt that professional life and even life during the day is slightly different from my limited experiences I saw your PM and good point about racism in the US against Asians; I guess I kind of got used to it and brushed it off after spending two years of high school in rural Ohio, where my name was either Ching Chong or Wa-tah! or Chinese Chicken depending on the day of the week. I should clarify to all the foreigners thinking we are all racist after reading my post: Koreans aren't particularly more racist than people of other cultures, we're just a lot more honest/less PC around friends. Thanks for your input, I feel bad for casting our society in a bad light now :\
I can appreciate cultures where people still take the time to take care of their looks... It's a sharp contrast with the netherlands where it sometimes almost looks like people would be fine with wearing garbage bags...
I do think its sad however that a lot of these things seem to be "mandatory" in SKR (as I interpreted it at least). Kinda sucks that girls feel they need to chop up their face (or whatever) in order to feel competent w/e.
Now on to what I wanted to ask you: what is the percentage of korean youngsters that actually go along with these trends? Are we talking 80 / 90% here or is mostly the somewhat higher classes of society where people have the money to spend on plastic surgeries and an abundance of hair products and skin cream?
On March 20 2012 05:18 Bellygareth wrote: Is there a reason Korean progamers seem way worse than any other foreigner when it comes to speaking english? I mean even the french guys (Stephano, Carn, ToD) speak english in stream and interviews all the time and god knows French are bad with english! Only very few Koreans seem to try and speak english?
On March 20 2012 05:48 Bellygareth wrote: I get it more when you explain it :D. So it's not taught well for a first reason and people don't really care / never practice it for a second reason? I mean it's pretty hard for me to get it because well as the post of that "guy said" 11 years of teaching you should be able to speak it :S. Besides, the OP seem pretty good at at least writing english. I'm just wondering if it's just a difference between written english and speaking it?
Wasn't there an interview with one progamer where they asked why his English wasn't so good and he said he skipped class to practice Starcraft?
There are good teachers out there but it's not an effective system.
I disagree that there are plenty of Koreans that practically use English within Korea. Most of us forget what we learn from class as soon as we're out the door - same goes for Korea. They have a billion other activities and studies they have after regular school.
English isn't their first language and they're going to use Korean as much as they can especially if they're trying to make fun of the teacher or just mess around with other students.
Most Koreans are able to read and write thanks to memory and practice but speaking is another story. Up until recently, speaking was never a priority for major important tests and even job interviews. You could get away with a bare minimum but they've started to take notice and are making speaking a priority.
EPT
You definitely did made some good point minus the over exaggeration but I guess I'm little bit tired of the left wing biased media here that tends blow everything out of proportion.
I saw your PM and good point about racism in the US against Asians; I guess I kind of got used to it and brushed it off after spending two years of high school in rural Ohio, where my name was either Ching Chong or Wa-tah! or Chinese Chicken depending on the day of the week. I should clarify to all the foreigners thinking we are all racist after reading my post: Koreans aren't particularly more racist than people of other cultures, we're just a lot more honest/less PC around friends. Thanks for your input, I feel bad for casting our society in a bad light now :\
