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On December 09 2011 14:13 windsupernova wrote: SC2 is easier, so what?
People were posting a twitter response from Forgg as evidence that SC2 is supposedly just as hard as BW. In response, some of us are insisting that that's not true.
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On December 09 2011 14:02 setzer wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2011 13:58 Olinimm wrote:On December 09 2011 13:55 rauk wrote:On December 09 2011 13:43 Ajnin wrote:aaaand this is why I don't listen to the opinions of people and mods on this website lol if people actually try to give some kind of reason otherwise from midas' retirement interview: "I'm going to confess that in the off-season, I tried out StarCraft 2 and League of Legends. I was so surprised when I first played StarCraft 2. I couldn't believe that such an easy game exists. "" well then I'd rather take the opinion of someone who played both games professionally over someone who probably played for like a couple days or weeks at most and though it was too easy because of automine or something. Blizzard themselves said they purposely made an easier game. Guess that's that.
Yeah they made the interface easier but what about the strategy side? Example, Nada said units like the marauder in TvT makes the matchup harder and more complex than BW TvT. So I dunno, maybe forGG feels other factors in SC2 makes the game harder overall as well; like the faster than BW game speed.
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On December 09 2011 14:14 Ajnin wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2011 14:12 T.O.P. wrote:On December 09 2011 14:04 Ajnin wrote:On December 09 2011 13:58 Olinimm wrote:On December 09 2011 13:55 rauk wrote:On December 09 2011 13:43 Ajnin wrote:aaaand this is why I don't listen to the opinions of people and mods on this website lol if people actually try to give some kind of reason otherwise from midas' retirement interview: "I'm going to confess that in the off-season, I tried out StarCraft 2 and League of Legends. I was so surprised when I first played StarCraft 2. I couldn't believe that such an easy game exists. "" well then I'd rather take the opinion of someone who played both games professionally over someone who probably played for like a couple days or weeks at most and though it was too easy because of automine or something. This, and these rebuttal posts are doing the exact thing I said in my original post. Lol. Comming from a player that won an MSL and beat Flash/Jaedong multiple times, its just showing that not all brood war pros are as narrow-minded on bw's superiority over sc2 as most people on here seem to think. That's all...really. People are seriously trying to elaborate on a one-worded response...chirst man. Try playing one game of broodwar and come back posting about your experience. Another person failing to see the original point.
Long standing broodwar pro feels like playing broodwar isn't harder then playing a game hes played for under a year? That is very surprising! But seriously, BW for the lay person is bloody hard. Maybe someone who plays it 12-14 hours a day for a long time may find it to be easier after a while.
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SC2 is mechanically easier than Broodwar but it's not easier to win, because everyone benefits from that advantage.
Strategically, there are more viable units and more options, and with the spare APM not spent on Broodwar-style macro, they can do some incredible micro and multiprong attacks.
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On December 09 2011 14:21 Zzoram wrote: SC2 is mechanically easier than Broodwar but it's not easier to win, because everyone benefits from that advantage.
Strategically, there are more viable units and more options, and with the spare APM not spent on Broodwar-style macro, they can do some incredible micro and multiprong attacks. Except BW pros still showcase superior micro and army control despite the greater difficulty of BW.
Oh, and SC2 is easier to win at the moment because the competition is much weaker. This is true at both the highest level and even at newbie level.
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forGG was just listening to some Foo Fighters on his stream so now I am a fan.
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This could have been a good thread
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On December 09 2011 14:23 DarkMatter_ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2011 14:21 Zzoram wrote: SC2 is mechanically easier than Broodwar but it's not easier to win, because everyone benefits from that advantage.
Strategically, there are more viable units and more options, and with the spare APM not spent on Broodwar-style macro, they can do some incredible micro and multiprong attacks. Except BW pros still showcase superior micro and army control despite the greater difficulty of BW. Oh, and SC2 is easier to win at the moment because the competition is much weaker. This is true at both the highest level and even at newbie level.
Example being sair/reaver. Honestly there isn't anything in SC2 that comes even CLOSE to a well executed sair/reaver build.
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I don't understand why there's so much angst when BW is discussed. It was the best competitive video game of all time, and it led to SC2 which has been the catalyst from which E-Sports has exploded World Wide. Is Sc2 as good as BW? No. But BW was out for ten years so the comparison is not fair.
So what if the BW players come to dominate SC2. I don't know that they will, but I suspect they will do very well, maybe even dominate. Thats fine. I could get used to watching a whole bunch of Flash vs Jaedong in Sc2. Or Flash vs nestea. Or MVP vs Bisu. There's no downside from the fans perspective. More big names, better story lines, more competition. Sounds good to me.
The biggest thing we need to worry about is the infighting among the Korean leagues and KESPA when the switchover happens. That could be a mess. But eventually they'll get it soreted out, hopefully in a manner tha'ts good for E-Sports. And for us Fans.
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On December 09 2011 14:25 setzer wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2011 14:23 DarkMatter_ wrote:On December 09 2011 14:21 Zzoram wrote: SC2 is mechanically easier than Broodwar but it's not easier to win, because everyone benefits from that advantage.
Strategically, there are more viable units and more options, and with the spare APM not spent on Broodwar-style macro, they can do some incredible micro and multiprong attacks. Except BW pros still showcase superior micro and army control despite the greater difficulty of BW. Oh, and SC2 is easier to win at the moment because the competition is much weaker. This is true at both the highest level and even at newbie level. Example being sair/reaver. Honestly there isn't anything in SC2 that comes even CLOSE to a well executed sair/reaver build.
Not yet that is, BW fans need to realize, that SC2 is not done yet, not even close to close, it is only 1/3 complete, and the 2/3 is on its way, but hasnt even hit Beta yet, the new units that are coming with the expansion are going to introduce tons of very micro heavy units. Units like the Swarm Host and Viper are going to make Zerg turn into a "Macro like a beast and win" concept into "Macro like a beast but micro your units very carefully and win". Essentially, Zerg is no longer going to be micro-less once the expansion comes out.
With the new Protoss units, Protoss is also going to turn into a big multitasking fest, because alot of their new units are for harassment, so Protoss pros are really going to have to have really good multitasking to play it at the top level.
And Terran is already very micro oriented haha.
Starcraft 1 was wildly unbalanced and had extremely weak players (compared to what they have now), it wasnt until years and years later did some of the top names join the scene and for the game itself to actually gain a real competitive balance. Starcraft 2 WILL be better, and here is why.
Starcraft 2 WOL was already good, just a little bland in comparison to BW, this is due to many facts, new game, inexperienced pro players, imbalance in many factors, and lack of strategies.
Only a year after release, it is 10X the game in terms of skill ceiling and strategy, and its only 1/3 done.
After they release the expansion, they are fixing SO many of the holes that SC2WOL was facing, Zerg will become very micro heavy, Protoss will need very good multitasking, and Terran are getting some cool new things themselves, this in and of its own is going to make the game MARVELOUS in terms of skill ceiling and skill needed.
And THEN after that gets going, there will be a THIRD expansion, that will undoubtedly fix any and all remaining problems in terms of strategies and balance. And the real top dogs will have emerged by this time.
No, SC2 is not as mechanically demanding as BW, simply because...the BW interface was horribly inefficient. A player with gosu strategy and ideas would simply get mauled by a player that played like a robot but played 14 hours a day to perfect the horrible UI.
In SC2, the more savvy tactician will always prevail, because now that the interface is sleek and efficient, the smarter player will almost always beat the one with the better mechanics.
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On December 09 2011 14:17 DarkMatter_ wrote:People were posting a twitter response from Forgg as evidence that SC2 is supposedly just as hard as BW. In response, some of us are insisting that that's not true.
Warcraft 2 is harder mechanically than BW, so?
The thing is that Mechanically SC2 IS easier, no denying that. Of course I get the point that you are not playing against the UI but against another human being and that the game will be as difficult as your opponent at the moment.
Mechanicall SC2 is easier than BW, mechanically BW is easier than W2. Competitively both games have a thriving scene so in the end it doesn't really matters. Discussing on what game is harder is just a meaningless e peen contest.
I mean I like... both games(ZOMG!!!!11!!!) but seriously there is 0 point in discussing the merits of each game vs the other. BW hasn't been killed off by SC2, SC2 has not been a bomb. Both still have lots of content to give and both have their fanbase. So seriously at this point who cares? Enjoy your game and don't shit on the games other people enjoy.
You guys are not even discussing the game thing. SC2 competition is as fierce as BW competition, thats what they are arguing which is true in a sense. You guys are arguing that SC2 is easier mechanically than BW which is true.
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On December 09 2011 14:15 DarkMatter_ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2011 14:12 seffer wrote:On December 09 2011 14:08 DarkMatter_ wrote: He's been competing at a professional level for 2 months and he's already been owning a lot of the top players. Compare that with the end of his BW career where he was pretty much Flash's punching bag in the practice house, and incredibly unreliable and inconsistent in proleague. Yep, SC2 is totally not easier than BW. just because the players are worse doesn't make the game easier. If all the pro bw players switched over you'd either have the same people dominating as in BW or you'd have a completely different scene because the games is *different*, not easier. Difficulty is relative according to who is playing against who, it's a competitive game. And my point is that SC2 is easier than BW right now. At a competitive level, the competition is inferior to BW. At a newbie level, SC2 is more accessible and the simplified mechanics make it easier to play at a semi-competent level compared to BW. At this point in time, there is absolutely no basis upon which one can say that SC2 is equally hard as BW.
everyone knows that, what is your point?
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ive watched for at least 75 minutes and seen him lose 2 times and he almost never gets to a third base in all of his games. At least a fully saturated 3rd.
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On December 09 2011 14:34 windsupernova wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2011 14:17 DarkMatter_ wrote:On December 09 2011 14:13 windsupernova wrote: SC2 is easier, so what?
People were posting a twitter response from Forgg as evidence that SC2 is supposedly just as hard as BW. In response, some of us are insisting that that's not true. Warcraft 2 is harder mechanically than BW, so? The thing is that Mechanically SC2 IS easier, no denying that. Of course I get the point that you are not playing against the UI but against another human being and that the game will be as difficult as your opponent at the moment. Mechanicall SC2 is easier than BW, mechanically BW is easier than W2. Competitively both games have a thriving scene so in the end it doesn't really matters. Discussing on what game is harder is just a meaningless e peen contest. I mean I like... both games(ZOMG!!!!11!!!) but seriously there is 0 point in discussing the merits of each game vs the other. BW hasn't been killed off by SC2, SC2 has not been a bomb. Both still have lots of content to give and both have their fanbase. So seriously at this point who cares? Enjoy your game and don't shit on the games other people enjoy. You guys are not even discussing the game thing. SC2 competition is as fierce as BW competition, thats what they are arguing which is true in a sense. You guys are arguing that SC2 is easier mechanically than BW which is true. It most certainly is not. That was the entire point of the elephant in the room article.
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
On December 09 2011 14:33 JohnnyPG wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2011 14:25 setzer wrote:On December 09 2011 14:23 DarkMatter_ wrote:On December 09 2011 14:21 Zzoram wrote: SC2 is mechanically easier than Broodwar but it's not easier to win, because everyone benefits from that advantage.
Strategically, there are more viable units and more options, and with the spare APM not spent on Broodwar-style macro, they can do some incredible micro and multiprong attacks. Except BW pros still showcase superior micro and army control despite the greater difficulty of BW. Oh, and SC2 is easier to win at the moment because the competition is much weaker. This is true at both the highest level and even at newbie level. Example being sair/reaver. Honestly there isn't anything in SC2 that comes even CLOSE to a well executed sair/reaver build. Not yet that is, BW fans need to realize, that SC2 is not done yet, not even close to close, it is only 1/3 complete, and the 2/3 is on its way, but hasnt even hit Beta yet, the new units that are coming with the expansion are going to introduce tons of very micro heavy units. Units like the Swarm Host and Viper are going to make Zerg turn into a "Macro like a beast and win" concept into "Macro like a beast but micro your units very carefully and win". Essentially, Zerg is no longer going to be micro-less once the expansion comes out. With the new Protoss units, Protoss is also going to turn into a big multitasking fest, because alot of their new units are for harassment, so Protoss pros are really going to have to have really good multitasking to play it at the top level. And Terran is already very micro oriented haha. Starcraft 1 was wildly unbalanced and had extremely weak players (compared to what they have now), it wasnt until years and years later did some of the top names join the scene and for the game itself to actually gain a real competitive balance. Starcraft 2 WILL be better, and here is why. Starcraft 2 WOL was already good, just a little bland in comparison to BW, this is due to many facts, new game, inexperienced pro players, imbalance in many factors, and lack of strategies. Only a year after release, it is 10X the game in terms of skill ceiling and strategy, and its only 1/3 done. After they release the expansion, they are fixing SO many of the holes that SC2WOL was facing, Zerg will become very micro heavy, Protoss will need very good multitasking, and Terran are getting some cool new things themselves, this in and of its own is going to make the game MARVELOUS in terms of skill ceiling and skill needed. And THEN after that gets going, there will be a THIRD expansion, that will undoubtedly fix any and all remaining problems in terms of strategies and balance. And the real top dogs will have emerged by this time. No, SC2 is not as mechanically demanding as BW, simply because...the BW interface was horribly inefficient. A player with gosu strategy and ideas would simply get mauled by a player that played like a robot but played 14 hours a day to perfect the horrible UI. In SC2, the more savvy tactician will always prevail, because now that the interface is sleek and efficient, the smarter player will almost always beat the one with the better mechanics. No, the player with the superior strategy will prevail, but since you can't scout. It becomes a game of chance.
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On December 09 2011 14:35 seffer wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2011 14:15 DarkMatter_ wrote:On December 09 2011 14:12 seffer wrote:On December 09 2011 14:08 DarkMatter_ wrote: He's been competing at a professional level for 2 months and he's already been owning a lot of the top players. Compare that with the end of his BW career where he was pretty much Flash's punching bag in the practice house, and incredibly unreliable and inconsistent in proleague. Yep, SC2 is totally not easier than BW. just because the players are worse doesn't make the game easier. If all the pro bw players switched over you'd either have the same people dominating as in BW or you'd have a completely different scene because the games is *different*, not easier. Difficulty is relative according to who is playing against who, it's a competitive game. And my point is that SC2 is easier than BW right now. At a competitive level, the competition is inferior to BW. At a newbie level, SC2 is more accessible and the simplified mechanics make it easier to play at a semi-competent level compared to BW. At this point in time, there is absolutely no basis upon which one can say that SC2 is equally hard as BW. everyone knows that, what is your point? If you read some of the posts here, you'd see that not everyone knows that.
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I would rage so hard at that rush just now. He had like 5 rax and 7 bunkers off one base.
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On December 09 2011 13:57 VPCursed wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2011 13:56 kofman wrote: what impresses me the most about fin is that he never has idle workers... watch his stream, and every so often, check if he has any idle workers, he will always have none. After telling his workers to do something, he always tells them to go back to mining afterwards. Its a small little thing, but just shows you how meticuluous of a player he is. I do this and im not even gm. no, i bet you don't. I'm high masters, and although I always use the shift button to make my workers go back to mining after completing buildings, theres always some idle workers. ForGG literally NEVER has idle workers. i bet you sometimes have some, especially in the lategame when you have other things to do. go watch his stream and ull see what i mean.
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He doesn't look too impressive from his stream, he does a lot of bunker rushes or all ins on one base, not many macro games.
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