I am probably not the only one impressed by the huge success of Fin, aka fOrGG, the ex broadwar progamer. Apparently he has been playing starcraft 2 for almost a year now, but this is the first season we have in the GSL, and he is on tear.
In his code A run, he has demolished the likes of Sage, Polt, and July, clinching his spot in code S for the next season. In each he won 2-0, and all of the games were incredibly one sided.
In his games against Sage, he showcased probably the best marine/maurader micro that sc2 has ever seen, showing an incredible ability, in game 2, to micro continually while keeping his minerals and gas below 400 the entire time.
In his games against Polt, he used brilliant banshee micro, often picking apart Polts scvs from two different places at once, and almost always being able to pull them back before they were killed. In the first game, fin was able to push Polts' bio army with a mech force at 13 minutes, something that the rules of mech says should be impossible.
Then last night, against July, he went two rax and gained a decisive advantage. July baneling busted fin in game two, but fin used great micro and crisis management to hold off the attack, and then quickly ended it with a mass hellion run by.
I first want to preface this, by saying that I am not a broodwar fan, and I never followed fOrGG or anything in the broodwar scene closely. So when I make this praise about fin and how I expect him to win a GSL within the next two or three seasons, I do so without looking through any rose colored glass. I have no broodwar biases.
The most obvious thing to note about fin is his micro looks to easily be the best starcraft 2 has ever seen. Even though fin has only played all of six games in the GSL, I think that statement can still be made. Sage should have taken game two with his high templar/gateway army, but the kiting of fins maraurders was just picture perfect; always pullling away from strorms just enough, and kiting back the least distance as possible, so that every possible volley from his units were released. His bunker rush against july was truly amazing, keeping as many as 4 marines alive with less then 5 hitpoints at one point, willing to abandon the bunker if it meant picking of zerglings and drones for free. And of course, most impressively, in game 2 of his match against polt, he was able to micro two banshees in two bases, with missile turrents in the mineral lines, and absolutely reck polts economy; at times doing this while even carrying on a push at the same time, or defending an attack at his own base.
But its not fins micro that has me all hot and bothered; its his fundamental style. Nearly everyone that plays starcraft II plays one of two styles; super aggressive (cheese and timing attacks) or super passive(macro/harrass oriented play). This may sound like a gross over simplification... some players can do both, and some style feature aggression and macro as well. What I mean by this, is that nearly everyone who plays starcraft II uses a strategy that either exploits the mistake their opponent makes in a big way (for instance, leenocks roach/ling timing in ZvT), or they play a style that focuses on making less mistakes then their opponent (Nestea style ZvT, MVP mech style in TvT, ect). What fin did, at least in his games where he didn't open with a cheese, was play an aggressive macro style. Fin is one of the few players I have ever seen force his opponent to make mistakes without going all in. Whats more he was also comfortable being weak at times in his games, so that he could both harass and macro behind it.
Fin looked so good and so dominant because he exploited anything and everything he could in his games; meaning that he had the fewest number of units possible, with the most bases and scvs he could afford, while still putting on incredible pressure and making decisive pushes. The margins for this kind of play style are incredibly close. I can only imagine how many games fin must have lost in ladder and practice trying to figure these timings out. In all of his games, if sage, or polt, or july had made the right units to hard counter whatever fin was doing, they could have pushed his front door and won the game nearly instantly. At one point against Polt, fins army consisted of three banshees, two wounded reapers, and a handful of marines. The brilliance of his play is that he was able to keep polt, who had the larger bio army, back in his base and at the same time was able to develop his tech better and force polt, through harassment, to fall behind on economy. That kind of play is truly amazing, and still unique to starcraft II. If this is the kind of play we can expect from top level broodwar players who switch over, then I can only hope more switch over soon and show us the way these games can truly be played.
I think fin deserves a lot of attention right now, perhaps even more then he is getting already. I would like to think he is playing a style that we will see more of in the future as starcraft II strategy continues to develop. I am very excited about seeing him compete in code S next season. If he plays like he has been in his last three matchups, then I think he could easily take a GSL title.
I totally agree with you, he really does look impressive thus far, his control especially with multiple groups is outstanding. But you can pose the argument that July/Polt are both in slumps and Sage is massively overhyped. I'll hold off on the bandwagon (as much as I want to because I love fOrGG >_>) because we all know too much hype kills promising players hahaha.
"The way I play is to create a pattern where I have an advantage, and then crush my opponents with momentum. That way my opponent can’t play with 100% of his skill. That’s why I think mind-games are more important than skill." - iloveoov
I'd describe his play as being more tactic-centric as compared to strategy-centric than we have been seeing from top players since beta
yea, though i do have a bw bias, that is merely being proved by forgg being a boss right now :D if those rumors of pl having a sc2 section ever come true (in a season or two) i expect him to return to kt and teach flash how to wreck everything ;3
that said, forgg is a boss and im glad to see him in code s (despite that he plays terran -__- we have enough terrans in there already)
the part where you actually say why he looks like one of the best was rather short(and not very thought out imho). It's more like a small summary of what happened the last week or so (and i was busy all week so i appreciate it )
On December 07 2011 04:52 Irritation wrote: shouldnt this be under the blog section ?
Maybe, but it's a nice write-up.
I think that the point has to be made that Fin (aka ForGG) is not only a former BW player but by far the highest level former BW player that professional SC2 has seen make the transfer yet. (Boxer, Nada, and July are all BW legends, but they're much further past their prime than ForGG). The Starcraft 2 scene is still young and hasn't had a chance to fully develop 'home-grown' talent. At this point, I think it's safe to say that the top SC1 players still have the edge over pretty much everyone else who plays Starcraft 2, and Fin's success just underscores that fact.
On December 07 2011 04:55 Grend wrote: Can't we just call him ForGG? Fin is just confusing :-)
I agree. Even when I see the brackets and see Fin, I think ForGG. He should change his name back :D. I bet he'll be picked in the last round of selections for code S next season.
On December 07 2011 04:55 Grend wrote: Can't we just call him ForGG? Fin is just confusing :-)
I agree. Even when I see the brackets and see Fin, I think ForGG. He should change his name back :D. I bet he'll be picked in the last round of selections for code S next season.
Don't think anyone thinks of him as Fin rather than ForGG.
Not far off given the other GSL winners were BW nobodies (woonjin terran and Iron lol) that an A-teamer (despite his bad bad baddd performance in the last year of his BW career) is dominating.
On December 07 2011 04:58 VPGeneralHans wrote: He's been playing for over 6 months in KR top 20 gm, this isn't something insane.
Six months as opposed to the players who have been playing for a year and a half?
Look at TSL HyuN, he's been playing for like a month and a half, with two weeks in the TSL house, and he's already beating other Korean pros in things like the Playhem Daily.
On December 07 2011 04:58 VPGeneralHans wrote: He's been playing for over 6 months in KR top 20 gm, this isn't something insane.
You can rationalize it all you want. Nobody is saying this guy is suddenly uncontested out of the woodwork... but so far he has made 3 top players look absolutely amateurish. Actually it is kind of insane just sayin.
i agree with the part that all players(in most cases) in sc2 either go for greedy macro play or july-esque aggression nothing in between. Forgg does what most people would call "cheese"(unfortunately tt) because they dont see that its not cheese but safe aggressive play. You ask whats safe about being aggressive, well you put pressure on your opponent, also you scout him, and play more mechanic-esque starcraft which is ForGG's forte. His oppeners are not hard countered by neither early allin's nor super greedy play, his builds generally put opponent in defense which gives forgg initiative to be more "all-in" or "greedy". Its hardest style to play, because its effectiveness relies on execution but also requires that from his opponent.
He's been in the top of the ladder for several months and just now has had some "public" success. His play is impressive, but its not like he magicly became amazing. He has been amazing for quite some time.
On December 07 2011 05:07 figq wrote: He's been playing official matches in the ESV Korean Weekly. You could have made some of these conclusions earlier.
Not true, because I watched his weekly games and while he looked good, he didn't look great or anything special because he had a few bad games there. His GSL games however are mind blowing and look completely different from his weekly games. While I wasn't that impressed with his weekly games, I'm blown away by his GSL games. It's a night and day difference.
On December 07 2011 05:04 Senx wrote: He's been in the top of the ladder for several months and just now has had some "public" success. His play is impressive, but its not like he magicly became amazing. He has been amazing for quite some time.
He just annihilated one of the most talented Protoss prospects, a GSL Super Tournament winner, and a two time finalist and former BW Champion.
If you don't describe that as magical, please, do tell me what it is.
It's hard for me to judge just how good he is right now because all his games have come through different styles and pretty dominating performances, but he is obviously very good and obviously code S level. Since I saw him in the ESV weekly he's actually gotten waaaay better, and it's scary to think just how much he might improve once january comes around.
I feel like fin has a different mindset than most of the other BW pros that have switched over so far, in that he's taking sc2 as seriously as possible and fully applying himself to the game. His peak skill level in brood war was in 2008, when he won his MSL, around the same time July won his golden mouse, but the difference between their levels of motivation is palpable. Fruitdealer won a GSL and has been resting on his laurels since then, nada's attention is being shared between starcraft, school, and his new business venture, and boxer has admitted that the only time he's truly felt the same level of motivation to succeed as in sc1 is in front of foreign crowds. His name change away from ForGG seems to have meant something more to fin, and he is effectively a brand new player with the skillset and knowledge of a champion already inside of him, but the drive and ambition of a newly-recruited no-name. I'm fairly sure this mix of attributes is going to serve him extremely well.
ForGG really impressed me even if i'm not a BW fan (i didn't watch any starcraft before sc2 came out) i have to say that he's one of a kind but what i fear is that players like him who favorize strong timings and tactical play can't really beat players like MVP. ForGG reminds me of MKP, strong pushes and micro, i feel he has a better understanding of the game than MKP and doesn't have the mental weakness of MKP neither but it's the same "kind" of playstyle. I hope he'll grow better and better and stop doing timing attacks every game (yeah, i know he's known for that^^), if not, strong players will figure out his playstyle and know how to scout what he's doing and than proceed to hardcounter it. He's kind of "new" for almost every player so... I'm not saying that he's not as good as he seems to be, he's really really strong but i just hope he'll not follow the path so many good players followed before falling into darkness.
I think being a former BW pro gives him a lot of flexibility and creativity, he's really refreshing to watch. I'm a fan already
Although he has been looking sick good so far, I would have predicted wins for many players over both Polt and especially July. Will be interesting to see how he does in code S next season against the likes of Leenock, Jjakji, MVP, NesTea, MMA, Oz etc.
His multitasking is something that I feel only MVP has been able to show the same level of, but then he also has this sick sick micro that not even MVP has showcased yet.
Right now he seems to know this and all his builds seem aimed at taxing his opponents multitasking to the point that they collapse, in the same way that a pro player would crush a high masters player.
On December 07 2011 05:16 Eufouria wrote: His multitasking is something that I feel only MVP has been able to show the same level of, but then he also has this sick sick micro that not even MVP has showcased yet.
Right now he seems to know this and all his builds seem aimed at taxing his opponents multitasking to the point that they collapse, in the same way that a pro player would crush a high masters player.
He did a lot of overstimming / stimming a second or two early against Sage tho. Wasn't all that impressive :/
No point in having GSL January, just hand him the trophy. Since he's obviously superior for playing BW might as well not bother having GSL until he gets bored. That way the rest of the world will have a chance to catch up to his superior play.
On December 07 2011 05:04 Senx wrote: He's been in the top of the ladder for several months and just now has had some "public" success. His play is impressive, but its not like he magicly became amazing. He has been amazing for quite some time.
He just annihilated one of the most talented Protoss prospects, a GSL Super Tournament winner, and a two time finalist and former BW Champion.
If you don't describe that as magical, please, do tell me what it is.
beating the actual consistent winners handily would be magical, beating prospects, someone who hasn't repeated, and someone, who while still amazing isn't really in the top of the players, just my opinion on that one though.....not so magical
On December 07 2011 05:04 Senx wrote: He's been in the top of the ladder for several months and just now has had some "public" success. His play is impressive, but its not like he magicly became amazing. He has been amazing for quite some time.
He just annihilated one of the most talented Protoss prospects, a GSL Super Tournament winner, and a two time finalist and former BW Champion.
If you don't describe that as magical, please, do tell me what it is.
On December 07 2011 05:07 figq wrote: He's been playing official matches in the ESV Korean Weekly. You could have made some of these conclusions earlier.
Not true, because I watched his weekly games and while he looked good, he didn't look great or anything special because he had a few bad games there. His GSL games however are mind blowing and look completely different from his weekly games. While I wasn't that impressed with his weekly games, I'm blown away by his GSL games. It's a night and day difference.
That only shows that your criterion for analysis is flawed. His bad games are part of his record either way. You can be sure you will see something like this in the GSL too. He won't be always successful. On the other hand, it was / is visible that he works hard to deliver very tight and goal-oriented builds.
he has exhibited great macro and micro, but lets wait to see what he does in Code S before we go crowning him. Most of the games I've seen him play, he's used somewhat unorthodox builds that are very thin and possibly risky in certain respects.
I would wait until people really get to sit down and study his replays to try and figure him out. Maybe his builds are entirely safe, or maybe a Code S player figures him out a counter style and crushes him hard.
On December 07 2011 05:17 Diizzy wrote: hes ranked 1 in korean ladder if that means anything... lol
No he isn't.
His account on stream earlier was Rank 1 Masters, not Rank 1 Grandmasters.
Also #1 on KR ladder rotates every like 15 minutes. All three TSL Terrans have held it at some point this season as well.
to my knowledge, he has 3 different ladder accounts.
... Except he's said that during when he wasn't on a team he was still unsure about whether he wanted to be a starcraft 2 pro and played on and off a lot.
On December 07 2011 05:07 figq wrote: He's been playing official matches in the ESV Korean Weekly. You could have made some of these conclusions earlier.
Not true, because I watched his weekly games and while he looked good, he didn't look great or anything special because he had a few bad games there. His GSL games however are mind blowing and look completely different from his weekly games. While I wasn't that impressed with his weekly games, I'm blown away by his GSL games. It's a night and day difference.
That only shows that your criterion for analysis is flawed. His bad games are part of his record either way. You can be sure you will see something like this in the GSL too. He won't be always successful. On the other hand, it was / is visible that he works hard to deliver very tight and goal-oriented builds.
Nope, even the games he won he didn't look as dominant as he did in gsl. He looked like a mid tier terran in the weekly, but no where near MVP level. His GSL games however are MVP level or better.
On December 07 2011 05:07 figq wrote: He's been playing official matches in the ESV Korean Weekly. You could have made some of these conclusions earlier.
Not true, because I watched his weekly games and while he looked good, he didn't look great or anything special because he had a few bad games there. His GSL games however are mind blowing and look completely different from his weekly games. While I wasn't that impressed with his weekly games, I'm blown away by his GSL games. It's a night and day difference.
That only shows that your criterion for analysis is flawed. His bad games are part of his record either way. You can be sure you will see something like this in the GSL too. He won't be always successful. On the other hand, it was / is visible that he works hard to deliver very tight and goal-oriented builds.
Nope, even the games he won he didn't look as dominant as he did in gsl. He looked like a mid tier terran in the weekly, but no where near MVP level. His GSL games however are MVP level or better.
id say that shows the difference that being able to prepare for your opponent makes.
the most natural thing for him to do, given his BW career, is to smash everyone in code S, including MVP and Nestea with some 3-0s, win the whole thing with ez and achieve nothing afterwards.
Now let's take a moment real quick before we say with conviction that he will immediately win GSL January.
His play was very impressive, and very dominant, but that does not necessarily always translates into success in Code S. Startale Curious blew all the way through Code A last season without dropping a single game, but got 0-2 in his Ro32 group.
Secondly, the other progamers have noticed, and over this year-end hiatus will be looking for replays and analyzing them for gaps, patterns, weaknesses.
His playstyle is uncommon, and cool to see, but I am sure that there are players out there who can and probably will adopt that style next year.
My conclusion: Yes, this guy is really good, but I would not bet money yet on him becoming unstoppable. Dominant force, certainly, but not invincible. Everyone has a weakness, and the other progamers will find it.
On December 07 2011 05:07 figq wrote: He's been playing official matches in the ESV Korean Weekly. You could have made some of these conclusions earlier.
Not true, because I watched his weekly games and while he looked good, he didn't look great or anything special because he had a few bad games there. His GSL games however are mind blowing and look completely different from his weekly games. While I wasn't that impressed with his weekly games, I'm blown away by his GSL games. It's a night and day difference.
That only shows that your criterion for analysis is flawed. His bad games are part of his record either way. You can be sure you will see something like this in the GSL too. He won't be always successful. On the other hand, it was / is visible that he works hard to deliver very tight and goal-oriented builds.
Nope, even the games he won he didn't look as dominant as he did in gsl. He looked like a mid tier terran in the weekly, but no where near MVP level. His GSL games however are MVP level or better.
id say that shows the difference that being able to prepare for your opponent makes.
Nah, I think it's just the stakes are higher in the GSL booth and he gets a power boost. Plus, some players play different online and in the booth. ie..see MVP are some of his awful online games in 1st AOL.
On December 07 2011 05:29 Bagration wrote: Now let's take a moment real quick before we say with conviction that he will immediately win GSL January.
His play was very impressive, and very dominant, but that does not necessarily always translates into success in Code S. Startale Curious blew all the way through Code A last season without dropping a single game, but got 0-2 in his Ro32 group.
Secondly, the other progamers have noticed, and over this year-end hiatus will be looking for replays and analyzing them for gaps, patterns, weaknesses.
His playstyle is uncommon, and cool to see, but I am sure that there are players out there who can and probably will adopt that style next year.
My conclusion: Yes, this guy is really good, but I would not bet money yet on him becoming unstoppable. Dominant force, certainly, but not invincible. Everyone has a weakness, and the other progamers will find it.
Great point, no one is invincible and weaknesses will always be found (unless your name is Flash). WHEN his weakness will be found, if any, is another matter entirely.
I think he's good, not surprising considering his background in BW. That being said though, nothing he's done has impressed me. Beating Sage and Polt is big, yes, they're no slouches. But July hasn't been playing his best for a while. Best micro displayed in sc2? Lol. A bit premature, and honestly you're coming off as a broodwar fanboy in spite of what you said. He has a unique style, much like Stephano did. But until he beats someone worthwhile I'm not prepared to say he's anywhere near ready for a GSL title. Still, interested to see how well he does in Code S. He's a talent for sure, I just don't think he's quite that good.
On December 07 2011 05:07 figq wrote: He's been playing official matches in the ESV Korean Weekly. You could have made some of these conclusions earlier.
Not true, because I watched his weekly games and while he looked good, he didn't look great or anything special because he had a few bad games there. His GSL games however are mind blowing and look completely different from his weekly games. While I wasn't that impressed with his weekly games, I'm blown away by his GSL games. It's a night and day difference.
That only shows that your criterion for analysis is flawed. His bad games are part of his record either way. You can be sure you will see something like this in the GSL too. He won't be always successful. On the other hand, it was / is visible that he works hard to deliver very tight and goal-oriented builds.
Nope, even the games he won he didn't look as dominant as he did in gsl. He looked like a mid tier terran in the weekly, but no where near MVP level. His GSL games however are MVP level or better.
Not sure how you decide that. I guess you just base it on his opponents. His style was pretty much as solid, with only a few cracks (that still may show up when he plays more GSL matches).
Is there any way we can send a message to Fin and ask him to go back to ForGG? It's getting confusing.
I'm in the same boat as you OP. I don't have any BW bias, but I have been watching the new Proleague and the previous '11 OSL. Let me tell you, there are so many players that do incredible shit, it's just f-ing amazing. If the current BW stars do switch, I'd be extremely excited (though I'd also feel bad for the BW guys because it would really mean that BW is dead). ForGG is showing us the potential of SC2, but only for terran. Imagine what warp prism harass would be like with Bisu at the helm or mutas in the hands of Jaedong. I honestly think they would change the SC2 landscape and I wouldn't have it any other way. Deathball vs Deathball sucks death-balls.
On December 07 2011 05:15 Enearde wrote: ForGG really impressed me even if i'm not a BW fan (i didn't watch any starcraft before sc2 came out) i have to say that he's one of a kind but what i fear is that players like him who favorize strong timings and tactical play can't really beat players like MVP. ForGG reminds me of MKP, strong pushes and micro, i feel he has a better understanding of the game than MKP and doesn't have the mental weakness of MKP neither but it's the same "kind" of playstyle. I hope he'll grow better and better and stop doing timing attacks every game (yeah, i know he's known for that^^), if not, strong players will figure out his playstyle and know how to scout what he's doing and than proceed to hardcounter it. He's kind of "new" for almost every player so... I'm not saying that he's not as good as he seems to be, he's really really strong but i just hope he'll not follow the path so many good players followed before falling into darkness.
I think being a former BW pro gives him a lot of flexibility and creativity, he's really refreshing to watch. I'm a fan already
PS: nice write up, good job OP
Lol he hasn't started doing timing attacks yet... And even if tvt != tvz, if Mvp can't beat Leenock now he doesn't have that much of a chance against fOrGG
On December 07 2011 05:29 iky43210 wrote: fin is way too overrated and overhyped.
you can thanks broodwar enthusiastic and artosis for that. The hard truth is he's still just a really good Terran, but we have plenty of those
he has so far only show mid game and early fights, he has yet to face off the real challenge that Terran has late game
most of his opponents didnt last till late game, sage game 2, was good macro game and forgg didnt float higher than 400 mineral WHOLE game, including time when he got DT dropped, 3base vs 3base game
On December 07 2011 05:15 Enearde wrote: ForGG really impressed me even if i'm not a BW fan (i didn't watch any starcraft before sc2 came out) i have to say that he's one of a kind but what i fear is that players like him who favorize strong timings and tactical play can't really beat players like MVP. ForGG reminds me of MKP, strong pushes and micro, i feel he has a better understanding of the game than MKP and doesn't have the mental weakness of MKP neither but it's the same "kind" of playstyle. I hope he'll grow better and better and stop doing timing attacks every game (yeah, i know he's known for that^^), if not, strong players will figure out his playstyle and know how to scout what he's doing and than proceed to hardcounter it. He's kind of "new" for almost every player so... I'm not saying that he's not as good as he seems to be, he's really really strong but i just hope he'll not follow the path so many good players followed before falling into darkness.
I think being a former BW pro gives him a lot of flexibility and creativity, he's really refreshing to watch. I'm a fan already
PS: nice write up, good job OP
Lol he hasn't started doing timing attacks yet... And even if tvt != tvz, if Mvp can't beat Leenock now he doesn't have that much of a chance against fOrGG
LOL. You're assuming, of course, that fOrGG can beat Leenock, and that even beating Leenock means he can beat MVP. If that's how it worked then Destiny's the best in the world, because he beat Leenock ages ago. That's just silly.
the weirdest thing is, I have no clue how he god this good. in the esv weekly, he didn't look nearly as awesome as he did in the gsl. must be the incredible ability to focus on a single opponent and practise hardcore for the upcoming set?
On December 07 2011 05:29 iky43210 wrote: fin is way too overrated and overhyped.
you can thanks broodwar enthusiastic and artosis for that. The hard truth is he's still just a really good Terran, but we have plenty of those
he has so far only show mid game and early fights, he has yet to face off the real challenge that Terran has late game
Why is he overrated? He crushed his opponents before they even got to late game. What does that say about his skill?
He's this hyped because he is the best BW pro to switch. Look at MVP, the second best (now) to switch and he's dominating the scene pretty hard.
it says he is good at playing early and mid games like plenty of Terran capable of doing it out there?
Personally I believe people are not bind by their past success or failure, and they can improve. Nestea was a terrible player in BW, look how he's doing now
he has beaten sage, polt, and july... Sure good players, but people are blowing this out of proportion as if they are really top tier players in the first place
On December 07 2011 05:15 Enearde wrote: ForGG really impressed me even if i'm not a BW fan (i didn't watch any starcraft before sc2 came out) i have to say that he's one of a kind but what i fear is that players like him who favorize strong timings and tactical play can't really beat players like MVP. ForGG reminds me of MKP, strong pushes and micro, i feel he has a better understanding of the game than MKP and doesn't have the mental weakness of MKP neither but it's the same "kind" of playstyle. I hope he'll grow better and better and stop doing timing attacks every game (yeah, i know he's known for that^^), if not, strong players will figure out his playstyle and know how to scout what he's doing and than proceed to hardcounter it. He's kind of "new" for almost every player so... I'm not saying that he's not as good as he seems to be, he's really really strong but i just hope he'll not follow the path so many good players followed before falling into darkness.
I think being a former BW pro gives him a lot of flexibility and creativity, he's really refreshing to watch. I'm a fan already
PS: nice write up, good job OP
Lol he hasn't started doing timing attacks yet... And even if tvt != tvz, if Mvp can't beat Leenock now he doesn't have that much of a chance against fOrGG
LOL. You're assuming, of course, that fOrGG can beat Leenock, and that even beating Leenock means he can beat MVP. If that's how it worked then Destiny's the best in the world, because he beat Leenock ages ago. That's just silly.
What the ****? XD. I don't assume that fOrGG can beat Leenock, I dunno and that's not what I said lol. I just said that Mvp can't play to his best lately and thus he probably won't stop fOrGG in his royal road.
On December 07 2011 05:44 Zoler wrote: People don't understand. ForGG is the best one to switch now.
Before this there wasn't a close to good ex-bw progamer playing SC2. Nada, Nestea and Boxer, they were all nothing.
By best one to switch now, I hope you mean the one in best form when he switched. Because I'm fairly certain we've already had a few BW banjos in SC2 for a while.
Man... people are still underestimating BW pros. The only thing that forgg hasn't shown us yet is how far his game sense has come. If you want to see how good his multitasking, micro, and macro are then all you have to do is watch him play BW. He's already proven himself in that regard. In terms of mechanical talent he has it, and he's better than just about everyone else, period.
MVP has the best game sense and strategical mind of any sc2 player right now, but that means forgg can learn from MVP as well. Everything else just comes naturally from playing the game more and more.
On December 07 2011 05:15 Enearde wrote: ForGG really impressed me even if i'm not a BW fan (i didn't watch any starcraft before sc2 came out) i have to say that he's one of a kind but what i fear is that players like him who favorize strong timings and tactical play can't really beat players like MVP. ForGG reminds me of MKP, strong pushes and micro, i feel he has a better understanding of the game than MKP and doesn't have the mental weakness of MKP neither but it's the same "kind" of playstyle. I hope he'll grow better and better and stop doing timing attacks every game (yeah, i know he's known for that^^), if not, strong players will figure out his playstyle and know how to scout what he's doing and than proceed to hardcounter it. He's kind of "new" for almost every player so... I'm not saying that he's not as good as he seems to be, he's really really strong but i just hope he'll not follow the path so many good players followed before falling into darkness.
I think being a former BW pro gives him a lot of flexibility and creativity, he's really refreshing to watch. I'm a fan already
PS: nice write up, good job OP
Lol he hasn't started doing timing attacks yet... And even if tvt != tvz, if Mvp can't beat Leenock now he doesn't have that much of a chance against fOrGG
LOL. You're assuming, of course, that fOrGG can beat Leenock, and that even beating Leenock means he can beat MVP. If that's how it worked then Destiny's the best in the world, because he beat Leenock ages ago. That's just silly.
What the ****? XD. I don't assume that fOrGG can beat Leenock, I dunno and that's not what I said lol. I just said that Mvp can't play to his best lately and thus he probably won't stop fOrGG in his royal road.
The series was 3-2, give me a break. Watch game 2 and then tell me MVP is not in shape.
also like to point out that in game 2 versus July he sacrificed about 6 scv's to ensure that his main base was walled off before the lings got in. actually a big deal as he didn't have his hellions out yet and the lings could have done big damage as well as see the double factory tech lab. not saying this is anything revolutionary but it was incredible decision making in a very stressful moment. Not completely sold yet as he has not played any of the top top pros yet.
On December 07 2011 05:15 Enearde wrote: ForGG really impressed me even if i'm not a BW fan (i didn't watch any starcraft before sc2 came out) i have to say that he's one of a kind but what i fear is that players like him who favorize strong timings and tactical play can't really beat players like MVP. ForGG reminds me of MKP, strong pushes and micro, i feel he has a better understanding of the game than MKP and doesn't have the mental weakness of MKP neither but it's the same "kind" of playstyle. I hope he'll grow better and better and stop doing timing attacks every game (yeah, i know he's known for that^^), if not, strong players will figure out his playstyle and know how to scout what he's doing and than proceed to hardcounter it. He's kind of "new" for almost every player so... I'm not saying that he's not as good as he seems to be, he's really really strong but i just hope he'll not follow the path so many good players followed before falling into darkness.
I think being a former BW pro gives him a lot of flexibility and creativity, he's really refreshing to watch. I'm a fan already
PS: nice write up, good job OP
Lol he hasn't started doing timing attacks yet... And even if tvt != tvz, if Mvp can't beat Leenock now he doesn't have that much of a chance against fOrGG
LOL. You're assuming, of course, that fOrGG can beat Leenock, and that even beating Leenock means he can beat MVP. If that's how it worked then Destiny's the best in the world, because he beat Leenock ages ago. That's just silly.
What the ****? XD. I don't assume that fOrGG can beat Leenock, I dunno and that's not what I said lol. I just said that Mvp can't play to his best lately and thus he probably won't stop fOrGG in his royal road.
You're saying that because he couldn't beat Leenock, he can't beat fOrGG. Silliest jump in logic I've seen yet. What does not being able to beat arguably the most in form zerg in the world at the moment have to do with beating a new-to-the-scene terran? It's a completely different match up.
On December 07 2011 05:36 LimitSEA wrote: I think he's good, not surprising considering his background in BW. That being said though, nothing he's done has impressed me. Beating Sage and Polt is big, yes, they're no slouches. But July hasn't been playing his best for a while. Best micro displayed in sc2? Lol. A bit premature, and honestly you're coming off as a broodwar fanboy in spite of what you said. He has a unique style, much like Stephano did. But until he beats someone worthwhile I'm not prepared to say he's anywhere near ready for a GSL title. Still, interested to see how well he does in Code S. He's a talent for sure, I just don't think he's quite that good.
I agree that claiming his micro is the best we have seen in sc2 is wayyy to pre mature. but to say that after only a couple of months training with a team(Yes he laddered before and was top GM... but really that's not true training/practice) 2-0'ing Polt and Sage is not impressive? Yes July has been in a bit of a slump but he is still July, and come to think of it, he beat July where he is strongest in the early/mid game.
His play has clearly improved 100 fold since the Korean weeklies, whether that is because he has had more time to practice in a team house environment or it was simply knowing your opponent ahead of time and being able to prepare specifically no one can really know. Either way I'm stoked to see what he can do in the future with more time in the team house and even more scheduled matches to prepare for.
On December 07 2011 05:32 papaz wrote: I posted this in LR thread of today but it deserves also to be here. fOrGG FIGHTING!
Sorry for the stupid question, but what is he holding ?
The glass code S medalions. I don't know if players get them like is implied, or if its just supposed to represent the player qualifying for code S, but that's what it is. Edit: Anyone else think he looks like Mr Chae?
On December 07 2011 05:44 Zoler wrote: People don't understand. ForGG is the best one to switch now.
Before this there wasn't a close to good ex-bw progamer playing SC2. Nada, Nestea and Boxer, they were all nothing.
I think you should clarify that you mean player skill peak as they switched. NaDa and BoxeR were not nothing in BW, though I know what you mean you'll probably get flamed lol
fOrGG is looking really strong, he impressed on the weekly's, despite losing here and there to allins, and has shown a remarkable run in Code A, and soon to be Code S. For those saying his macro is not up to par because his early game is so solid, watch his series against Sage and most of his TvT's from the weeklies, it's there for sure.
Since there are spoilers in the OP I doubt I need to tag this: Even the series against July, the set on TDA...there are MANY Code A Terran's who wouldn't be able to micro their harass as well as fin while keeping their min so low.
fOrGG has been playing SC2 for about 8 months already, it's not like he switched over yesterday. So yes hes looking good...but thats to be expected.
it's a huge difference between laddering on your own and training in a team house. So really to me its more like he just switched over. Yes the ladder helped him learn the basics and obviously helped some fundamentals but in the end that's not training. Look at the guys he's beaten, they've been living in team houses and training properly for pretty much a full year if not more then. ForGG has caught up to that high level of play having just moved into a team house. That is insane
I don't think SC2 is perfect but I think once more BW pros come over and settle you'll see SC2 is less "volatile" than a lot of people think. Better players in the GSL will simply start crushing and the whole "bad players can win at SC2" will start going away more, I think.
I don't get some of these "he's been training for 8 months not a big deal" kinda arguments. Aren't these the same people who said that korean infrastructure and team houses make up a large portion of a player's growth and success? Not to mention there have been a ton of people who have trained twice as long as that in sc2 and can't even hold a candle to this guy right now.
On December 07 2011 05:57 DrowSwordsman wrote: I don't think SC2 is perfect but I think once more BW pros come over and settle you'll see SC2 is less "volatile" than a lot of people think. Better players in the GSL will simply start crushing and the whole "bad players can win at SC2" will start going away more, I think.
Of course, can't wait for Stork, Jaedong, and Flash to switch over.
Not to take anything aways from his wins, his code A run is definitely consisted of solid players. However, I still think we need to see him against the best of the best before we can make this kind of conclusions.
Especially with the way he crushed his opponents, that kind of demonstration can mean either two things: he is unbelievably good right now, or his opponents were bringing their A game.
I wouldn't say which one is the case because I don't know which one is true, but we really need to see him being pushed to the limit to really understand which level is he competing on. This is kind of hard right now because how little we have seen of him.
Nestea, DRG, leenock and MVP established their status of the best of the best through MASSIVE amounts of game. Nestea has won three GSLs. MVP has won three, made another final and an Ro4, against the best the sc2 world has to offer. DRG went essentially undefeated in two GSTL, leenock won providence out of open bracket and took down GSL and MLG champion on his way.
They all showed their consistency and top level play through at least 30+ games to be considered the best. I'm not saying Fin isn't up to par, but it's still too early to make that conclusion because how little we have seen of him.
Im as excited as you, but lets not get ahead of ourselves. Yes, he has shown great micro, and yes, he has shown great timing pushes. But do keep in mind that he is a new comber in the GSL so he has the momentum of new blood on his side. Apart from that, he hasn't taken out one of the players that really is on a roll lately. If he manages to beat the likes of nestea MVP or jjakji in a bo5, thats when it really starts getting interesting. (at least for me)
I agree with your statement that Fin needs some attention right now. He is obviously a very strong player and is on a good run right now.
However, I disagree with saying he has the best micro or has displayed the best micro in Starcraft 2. 6 broadcasted games are too little to say anything.
I'm neutral in the Brood War players debate. I think obviously players who train 'professionally' with incredible dedication and past RTS skills will do really well (I expect Flash and Co. to win several Code S). This however, isn't a case of some BW player picking up the game and in 2 months getting into Code S. We know he has been laddering for a very long time. A lot of the top players spam ladder practice and some have even said its the best form of practice.
I think this is the case of someone who wanted to be in really good shape before he put his name out there on the big stage. That makes sense to me. Reputation is important and as shown by these threads, we can see that he has gotten his name out there. He probably laddered a lot for a year, saw that he was as good as most top players or better, then decided for himself that SC2 is something he will commit to.
One of my favourite things about him is that he is quoted as saying how he learned a lot watching MVP's VODS and thinks he is the best player. Very humble from him and honours the people currently making SC2 what it is.
On December 07 2011 04:58 VPGeneralHans wrote: He's been playing for over 6 months in KR top 20 gm, this isn't something insane.
Six months as opposed to the players who have been playing for a year and a half?
Look at TSL HyuN, he's been playing for like a month and a half, with two weeks in the TSL house, and he's already beating other Korean pros in things like the Playhem Daily.
I mean what do you expect? He was a top top level broodwar player and all those years of experience and mechanics training doesn't just suddenly disappear. Obviously those skills transfer to other RTS games, especially starcraft 2 since its such a similar game. To be honest, it's really not anything insane unless he makes the top sc2 players like MVP/MMA/Leenock look like fools. Just Sage, July, and Polt who are not at the top of the game right now is simply too small a study group to prove that broodwar players can come in whenever they want and just tear through. In addition, people exaggerate how much practice he's gotten.
6 months is still a considerably long time and the other pros that played for a year and half were playing for about 6 months in a stage in the game where nothing was figured out, so they weren't getting much real practice anyways.
On December 07 2011 06:13 SuperNinja wrote: I agree with your statement that Fin needs some attention right now. He is obviously a very strong player and is on a good run right now.
However, I disagree with saying he has the best micro or has displayed the best micro in Starcraft 2. 6 broadcasted games are too little to say anything.
I'm neutral in the Brood War players debate. I think obviously players who train 'professionally' with incredible dedication and past RTS skills will do really well (I expect Flash and Co. to win several Code S). This however, isn't a case of some BW player picking up the game and in 2 months getting into Code S. We know he has been laddering for a very long time. A lot of the top players spam ladder practice and some have even said its the best form of practice.
I think this is the case of someone who wanted to be in really good shape before he put his name out there on the big stage. That makes sense to me. Reputation is important and as shown by these threads, we can see that he has gotten his name out there in a very positive way. He probably laddered a lot for a year, saw that he was as good as most top players or better, then decided for himself that SC2 is something he will commit to.
One of my favourite things about him is that he is quoted as saying how he learned a lot watching MVP's VODS and thinks he is the best player. Very humble from him and honours the people currently making SC2 what it is.
Has forGG tried to get into Code A before? If not, then it certainly is impressive that his first attempt at qualifying for the GSL was successful, and should be added to his subsequent list of accomplishments in Code A.
On December 07 2011 05:44 Zoler wrote: People don't understand. ForGG is the best one to switch now.
Before this there wasn't a close to good ex-bw progamer playing SC2. Nada, Nestea and Boxer, they were all nothing.
By best one to switch now, I hope you mean the one in best form when he switched. Because I'm fairly certain we've already had a few BW banjos in SC2 for a while.
I think that back in his prime, MC used a similar style (like the 3 gate expand, the first nonallin pvt pressure expand build) and his superb control gave him the invincible aura he has since lost. I hope to see this style blossom!
Fin's control was AMAZING! He just would not use units, and would always target fire. I don't know if his units even know how to auto fire, he tore Polt a new one (and frankly Polt hasn't looked good to me... ever, but I'm a hater so just ignore that).
OGSFin has played an entirely different style of Terran, using Banshee's with cloak extensively in every match up and in EVERY stage of the game. I love it, and can't wait for him to crush and come up against the better SC2 dominant players next season!
On December 07 2011 06:22 SafeAsCheese wrote: If ForGG is the best at anything, it's powering a hype train
Jesus Christ, this is worse than Leenock
Let him win some code S games first.
People are just excited to see something that is new and not just someone doing the traditional strategy/play but slightly better than everyone else. He's just CRUSHING people with stuff that nobody has an answer to yet and it's very exciting to watch.
But yeah, like with leenock (omg he's unstopable/new bonjwa) after one tournament and a match against MVP he won we'll need to see. That being said I firmly believe that forgg can win one of the next 2 GSLs. We haven't even seen someone be able to hold off his attacks/harassment without huge losses to get into a macro game with him. His unit production is incredible considering the amount of harassment he's doing at the same time, I expect that he will have NO TROUBLE AT ALL playing a long drawn out macro game.
i always love to see the power and supremacy of sc1 players compared to sc2 players. previously i had to extrapolate from comparing bwfpvods to sc2fpvods, but now i can see an sc1 mega pro make a fool out of sc2 pros.
incredibly epic how the heroes we are impressed with in sc2 may turn out to be way inferior when the sc1 progamer switch.
the time of noobs dominating the scene is coming to an end! haha
ForGG's micro is in no way superior to every other Terrans, it's good but I'd expect most of the top tier Terran players to do as much given the same scenarios.
His multitasking and ability to appropriately prioritise actions is what makes him particularly scary right now, which I guess is what you are getting at when you talk about the way his play forces mistakes.
Looking forward to seeing how he stacks up in Code S.
On December 07 2011 06:15 DeadBull wrote: He plays ladder for 8 months now. -yes. but ladder is a fucking joke
That's why NA pros can't get Grand-Master on the KR ladder, huh? Thanks for the insight.
That's completely irrelevant. Ladder just isn't good practice.
Ladder is fine practice if you are playing against high level opponents all the time. It offers you a huge range of scenarios and maps which is perfect for learning how you want to play each match up.
Customs are better for drilling and fine tuning things.
ForGG will surely win multiple GSL's in 2012, I have no doubt about it. Same with MVP, it was just a matter of time before MVP started dominating, same will happen with ForGG.
On December 07 2011 06:15 DeadBull wrote: He plays ladder for 8 months now. -yes. but ladder is a fucking joke
That's why NA pros can't get Grand-Master on the KR ladder, huh? Thanks for the insight.
Wtf does that have to do with anything? If anything it helps his point? Ladder is a joke when compared to training in a team house! Laddering in your own time =/= real practice.
ForGG has had a couple of months of true practice and on his first run through of the GSL code A has gone undefeated. I really don't see how people can shrug that off as not a big deal or not a great accomplishment, especially when looking at the players he has beaten and how one sided the matches have been.
I was so happy when Mr. Timingu Attacku used flying dts in every matchup, I love him even more now. ForGG, maybe you can make up for killing Jaedong that one time. You know what I am talking about.
I expect ForGG to win 3 GSLs in a row with no losses. He is capable of forcing mistakes out of his opponent through sheer multitask superiority. Once the first mistakes have been made, only the best and most seasoned veterans of the game will be able to hold together. Everyone else just crumbles, giving ForGG more and more advantages as he picks apart the mistakes as they grow exponentially. This is a guy that would crush MVP or NesTea easily through sheer micro. I'm not going to do a major writeup on him yet but I think you get my point.
Edit: Seriously, just look at his harrassment capabilities. He doesn't just fly one or two banshees around the mineral lines, lose them after killing 7 scvs, and then say "ok, I'm done with harrassment now." He harrasses all game, like a true professional. Once he has a small advantage he will win.
On December 07 2011 06:31 hp.Shell wrote: I expect ForGG to win 3 GSLs in a row with no losses. He is capable of forcing mistakes out of his opponent through sheer multitask superiority. Once the first mistakes have been made, only the best and most seasoned veterans of the game will be able to hold together. Everyone else just crumbles, giving ForGG more and more advantages as he picks apart the mistakes as they grow exponentially. This is a guy that would crush MVP or NesTea easily through sheer micro. I'm not going to do a major writeup on him yet but I think you get my point.
I sincerely hope this is 80% sarcasm. Though I expect ForGG to continue smashing nerds left and right I don't see him winning a gsl let alone 3 for at least another couple of seasons! His skill and potential are great but you need more then that to take down MVP in TvT. Right now he has done and impressive job of smashing though up and coming top tier/in a slump top tier players. I am really excited to see what he can bring next GSL against the best of the best!
On December 07 2011 06:31 hp.Shell wrote: I expect ForGG to win 3 GSLs in a row with no losses. He is capable of forcing mistakes out of his opponent through sheer multitask superiority. Once the first mistakes have been made, only the best and most seasoned veterans of the game will be able to hold together. Everyone else just crumbles, giving ForGG more and more advantages as he picks apart the mistakes as they grow exponentially. This is a guy that would crush MVP or NesTea easily through sheer micro. I'm not going to do a major writeup on him yet but I think you get my point.
I sincerely hope this is 80% sarcasm. Though I expect ForGG to continue smashing nerds left and right I don't see him winning a gsl let alone 3 for at least another couple of seasons! His skill and potential are great but you need more then that to take down MVP in TvT. Right now he has done and impressive job of smashing though up and coming top tier/in a slump top tier players. I am really excited to see what he can bring next GSL against the best of the best!
He can win just by multitasking and harassing appropriately. It doesn't really matter if his unit composition isn't perfect. What matters is how continual his harassment is. I look forward to his first match with MVP. I expect him to win every single game, and if he doesn't it will come as a shock.
The only thing that troubled me was his multi-tasking. I feel like his micro against July in game 2 with the marines was more error on July's part than anything, but more importantly he was floating 500-600 minerals on 1 base during that whole time. Sure, if it's doing as much damage as it did more power to him but his transition was a little bit awkward. His game 1 was pretty fantastic, although I think the major flaw again was on July's part as you see him making 14 zerglings after his roach/ling bust was finished.
Exciting player nonetheless, looking forward to see how he does in the long run.
On December 07 2011 06:31 hp.Shell wrote: I expect ForGG to win 3 GSLs in a row with no losses. He is capable of forcing mistakes out of his opponent through sheer multitask superiority. Once the first mistakes have been made, only the best and most seasoned veterans of the game will be able to hold together. Everyone else just crumbles, giving ForGG more and more advantages as he picks apart the mistakes as they grow exponentially. This is a guy that would crush MVP or NesTea easily through sheer micro. I'm not going to do a major writeup on him yet but I think you get my point.
I sincerely hope this is 80% sarcasm. Though I expect ForGG to continue smashing nerds left and right I don't see him winning a gsl let alone 3 for at least another couple of seasons! His skill and potential are great but you need more then that to take down MVP in TvT. Right now he has done and impressive job of smashing though up and coming top tier/in a slump top tier players. I am really excited to see what he can bring next GSL against the best of the best!
It's only sarcasm to someone who never watched sc1 and doesn't realize the potential of these a-team players.
i dont wanna just bandwagon, but really, his play is DEVASTATING. He just smirks after his games like it was the easiest thing in the world, then hurriedly leaves the studio. I can't wait to see him with a real challenge, I'm sure hel go far
On December 07 2011 06:43 FILM wrote: The only thing that troubled me was his multi-tasking. I feel like his micro against July in game 2 with the marines was more error on July's part than anything, but more importantly he was floating 500-600 minerals on 1 base during that whole time. Sure, if it's doing as much damage as it did more power to him but his transition was a little bit awkward. His game 1 was pretty fantastic, although I think the major flaw again was on July's part as you see him making 14 zerglings after his roach/ling bust was finished.
Exciting player nonetheless, looking forward to see how he does in the long run.
Youre troubled by the multi tasking of a former Brood War champion? I can assure that if anything his multitasking is his strength not a weakness.
On December 07 2011 06:43 FILM wrote: The only thing that troubled me was his multi-tasking. I feel like his micro against July in game 2 with the marines was more error on July's part than anything, but more importantly he was floating 500-600 minerals on 1 base during that whole time. Sure, if it's doing as much damage as it did more power to him but his transition was a little bit awkward. His game 1 was pretty fantastic, although I think the major flaw again was on July's part as you see him making 14 zerglings after his roach/ling bust was finished.
Exciting player nonetheless, looking forward to see how he does in the long run.
Youre troubled by the multi tasking of a former Brood War champion? I can assure that if anything his multitasking is his strength not a weakness.
This would also be highlighted by his build in his first game against July and how effective his banshees against Polt were. He was micro'ing multiple places while building up an army/expanding. Multi-tasking is definitely not his weakness.
the way forgg plays is how sc2 should be played imo. hopefully that style keeps working. his style is using strong aggression to out-multitask his opponents. also strong aggression leads to more varied gameplay and favors the player that can adapte more readily as more variables come up instead of the usual 200/200 deathball fight. in most games, the best defense is a strong offense, which hopefully is the case in sc2.
From someone with no big BW background, fOrGG does look really good. But I'm not convinced he's the next big thing. Every new good player has looked like a beast in Code A - look at Puzzle. He dominated everyone through Code A and everyone expected him to do well in Code S, but Code S is a different beast, and he barely survived. Look at Curious - 4-0ed Oz in the finals of Code A and got thrown straight out of Code S.
From what I've seen, his micro is really, really good, but his opponents have looked to be a canvas for the artist fOrGG to paint. July just... isn't that good any more, from the looks of his recent play. He definitely looks to be Code S material, without a doubt, from his play so far, but without any BW bias his play looks standard, but better. Not magical, like Fruitdealer did originally, or like MC in his first 2 wins, or MVP vs Leenock Game 2.
On December 07 2011 06:31 hp.Shell wrote: I expect ForGG to win 3 GSLs in a row with no losses. He is capable of forcing mistakes out of his opponent through sheer multitask superiority. Once the first mistakes have been made, only the best and most seasoned veterans of the game will be able to hold together. Everyone else just crumbles, giving ForGG more and more advantages as he picks apart the mistakes as they grow exponentially. This is a guy that would crush MVP or NesTea easily through sheer micro. I'm not going to do a major writeup on him yet but I think you get my point.
I sincerely hope this is 80% sarcasm. Though I expect ForGG to continue smashing nerds left and right I don't see him winning a gsl let alone 3 for at least another couple of seasons! His skill and potential are great but you need more then that to take down MVP in TvT. Right now he has done and impressive job of smashing though up and coming top tier/in a slump top tier players. I am really excited to see what he can bring next GSL against the best of the best!
He can win just by multitasking and harassing appropriately. It doesn't really matter if his unit composition isn't perfect. What matters is how continual his harassment is. I look forward to his first match with MVP. I expect him to win every single game, and if he doesn't it will come as a shock.
.... That's wishful thinking. Not even MVP can continuously dominate over players he's much, much better than.
I've had my fair share of BW and I still don't expect "Fin" to wtfstomp everybody. The dude who said he's going to win 3 GSLs with no losses is dreaming lol
On December 07 2011 06:43 FILM wrote: The only thing that troubled me was his multi-tasking. I feel like his micro against July in game 2 with the marines was more error on July's part than anything, but more importantly he was floating 500-600 minerals on 1 base during that whole time. Sure, if it's doing as much damage as it did more power to him but his transition was a little bit awkward. His game 1 was pretty fantastic, although I think the major flaw again was on July's part as you see him making 14 zerglings after his roach/ling bust was finished.
Exciting player nonetheless, looking forward to see how he does in the long run.
Youre troubled by the multi tasking of a former Brood War champion? I can assure that if anything his multitasking is his strength not a weakness.
After seeing is BW play I can say multitasking is not his strength.
"The way I play is to create a pattern where I have an advantage, and then crush my opponents with momentum. That way my opponent can’t play with 100% of his skill. That’s why I think mind-games are more important than skill." - iloveoov
Its the reason he had success in BW and it is also why he stop being successful in BW. Strategic play is the overall superior play style. I don't think he will be more than a high level korean.
This is with most people you watch even at the highest level you think "why didnt he do this?" Like the op mentioned in the example of marines killing stuff for free even though they were on very low health, or how he utilizes his hellions in a much bolder way then most, but still in a controlled way. He doesnt seem to suffer from a predetermined mindset of what each unit is capable of doing
His play is impressive but saying he has the best micro ever witnessed in SC2 at this point is a little ridiculous..especially considering you are referring to marine/mareuder kiting..
His ID was Never_V for a long time before retiring.
No offense to SC2 fans here, but he could keep his money that low in a game where macro was much harder, so it's not surprising. Nor is his micro considering the shitty AI BW has.
To be fair he's beaten Sage who has been struggling a bit recently, Polt who is completing his last year of University so he has to split his time, and July who has been falling off recently as well. I'm not trying to devalue Fin's wins but he hasn't had the hardest path to Code S and he hasn't faced anyone who can really test his merit.
On December 07 2011 07:11 ptrpb wrote: To be fair he's beaten Sage who has been struggling a bit recently, Polt who is completing his last year of University so he has to split his time, and July who has been falling off recently as well. I'm not trying to devalue Fin's wins but he hasn't had the hardest path to Code S and he hasn't faced anyone who can really test his merit.
On December 07 2011 05:44 JustPassingBy wrote: the weirdest thing is, I have no clue how he god this good. in the esv weekly, he didn't look nearly as awesome as he did in the gsl. must be the incredible ability to focus on a single opponent and practise hardcore for the upcoming set?
Specific prep + more time practicing with oGs. Earlier in the ESV, it seemed like a lot of his builds were less refined. Laddering isn't comparable to custom game practice.
July was the last month I paid to watch GSL, but I've re-subscribed because of Forgg just to see his code A games and I'm going to pay for GSL Decemeber too because I want to see how he does in Code S
On December 07 2011 05:44 Zoler wrote: People don't understand. ForGG is the best one to switch now.
Before this there wasn't a close to good ex-bw progamer playing SC2. Nada, Nestea and Boxer, they were all nothing.
By best one to switch now, I hope you mean the one in best form when he switched. Because I'm fairly certain we've already had a few BW banjos in SC2 for a while.
On December 07 2011 07:09 Kireak wrote: This is with most people you watch even at the highest level you think "why didnt he do this?" Like the op mentioned in the example of marines killing stuff for free even though they were on very low health, or how he utilizes his hellions in a much bolder way then most, but still in a controlled way. He doesnt seem to suffer from a predetermined mindset of what each unit is capable of doing
Actually, I might be nitpicking but I DID get that "why didnt he do this" feel.
Not spoilering here because if you come to a thread about fOrGG being amazing without having watched his most recent games then you deserve whatever spoilers you get:
vs July, he had just done a ton of damage with the 2rax, and while he was microing quite well, he had >500 minerals for a substantial part of that engagement. I feel like it was REALLY well microed, but partly did too much damage because July played it badly, and partly because he didn't focus on his macro AT ALL. Like, he produced Marines but didn't make Depots or the CC during the fight.
When he put down the CC, he'd been at >500 minerals for a while and probably could have got away with putting it down far quicker. And it looked like July's desperation Baneling bust caught him off guard, which was pretty surprising given how much damage he'd done and that... it was July.
Still really good, but I'm not willing to give him quite the level of praise he has recieved in the thread.
When you win an MSL by taking out both Flash and Jaedong in best of 5s and only losing 1 game between the two it's not exactly surprising that you're a monstrous rapefiend of a player.
op needs a few edits :D marine tank will never be a 13 minute mech push :D
to be honest what i found most startling of his game vs polt was just watching the production queue of scv production. polt obviously not a "macro terran" the same way mvp or bomber are considered to be. but when you watch the uptime of scv production between the 2, forgg was on a different level.
such a small thing but even at the top levels this shows people apart
Just watched his games against July, and all I said when I was watching his rine micro was "wow." I can't wait to see this guy tested against the Mvp/Nestea/MC's of the world. His micro is absolutely near perfect, and his multitasking is pretty much better than all but a few SC2 players (maybe).
This got me really excited to see more BW pros coming over. I am absolutely convinced now that in perhaps 12-18 months, we're going to have a top 10 with at least 7-8 former *High Level* BW pros. July, Boxer, Nestea, etc. are all amazing players in their own right, but I've never seen anything like what I've been watching fOrGG do and it makes me believe there's a ceiling "above the ceiling" if you get my meaning. It's almost like a level of SC2 we haven't even touched yet.
I'd be lying if I said I wasn't smiling a bit just thinking about how cool this whole thing's going to be in a year or two.
Hmm. I a huge supporter of the elephant in the room concepts, but I do believe this thread is a little out of place, if not premature. Hopefully this gives the opposers some proof, but lets wait until next season before he is called the best player.
On December 07 2011 07:27 1Eris1 wrote: Hmm. I a huge supporter of the elephant in the room concepts, but I do believe this thread is a little out of place, if not premature. Hopefully this gives the opposers some proof, but lets wait until next season before he is called the best player.
On December 07 2011 07:11 ptrpb wrote: To be fair he's beaten Sage who has been struggling a bit recently, Polt who is completing his last year of University so he has to split his time, and July who has been falling off recently as well. I'm not trying to devalue Fin's wins but he hasn't had the hardest path to Code S and he hasn't faced anyone who can really test his merit.
so who has had the hardest path to code s?
In this season Parting has had a harder path to Code S with TOP, Clide, and Killer in my opinion, but like I said it doesn't really matter because he hasn't faced anyone who has tested his merit. He hasn't faced the strong representatives of Code S. Parting and Brown also made a pretty clean run through Code A, and Brown showed incredible form but no one talks about him because he wasn't relevant in BW. All I'm saying is, hold off until the next Code S season before you make threads like this. People jump the gun so hard when it comes to new players.
On December 07 2011 07:11 ptrpb wrote: To be fair he's beaten Sage who has been struggling a bit recently, Polt who is completing his last year of University so he has to split his time, and July who has been falling off recently as well. I'm not trying to devalue Fin's wins but he hasn't had the hardest path to Code S and he hasn't faced anyone who can really test his merit.
so who has had the hardest path to code s?
In this season Parting has had a harder path to Code S with TOP, Clide, and Killer in my opinion, but like I said it doesn't really matter because he hasn't faced anyone who has tested his merit. He hasn't faced the strong representatives of Code S. Parting and Brown also made a pretty clean run through Code A, and Brown showed incredible form but no one talks about him because he wasn't relevant in BW. All I'm saying is, hold off until the next Code S season before you make threads like this. People jump the gun so hard when it comes to new players.
How in the hell is TOP, Clide, and Killer a harder path than Sage, Polt, and July...Hell even all those players(Clide top killer) are known for having awful vs Protoss so in fact it's an incredibly easy run through Code A.
Wow, the OP makes it sounds like SC2 is like BW, at least when forgg plays it. I may actually have to check this guy out, I was a big fan of him in BW too. Time Attacker, fuck yeah
TOP and Killer are awesome players, Clide isn't that great. Don't forget TOP is one of the best terran, some months ago, he was top 8 code S every season and is hugely underrated. Killer did have some good run but isn't a top tier player.
Polt won a gsl once but didn't do anything this past few months. Sage is overrated imo. Up and Coming but far from being "one of the best", i'ld say that Killer is more consistent and a well around player. And July is in a very big slump. He never was that good in SC2, he has something but he's kind of metagamed every time so...people figured out his playstyle long ago and he never really did something about that.
So, playing TOP, Clide and Killer is kinda similar to playing Sage, Polt and July.
Well balls. I was hoping that these BW guys didn't make everyone look like idiots but it seems they already are. Now I'm actually worried about the state of foreigners in SC2 if more of these monsters come over. Also I don't like that he plays Terran. Why can't he just revolutionize protoss? EDIT: On second thought, I'm not sure if this razor's edge playstyle will work in SC2. I mean, SC2 isn't ironed out to the smallest minutia of play yet like BW is. Pretty sure once he gets figured out pros will just start blindsiding him.
I appreciate the write up and his 3 game run is undeniable. Also the recognition of a good Brood War coming from a face whose never played the game or followed it earns my respect.
However some of the statements in this thread are just absurd. It is ANYTHING but easy to suggest that ForGG has the best Micro Starcraft 2 has ever seen, and is insulting to players who've accomplished much more than himself in terms of accomplishments, rewards, and respect.
You're analysis of the games are sub par at best. This isn't a personal attack it is more of me pointing out blasphemy. Again with fin dispalying the best Marine Marauder micro Starcraft 2 has ever seen. In game one vs Sage he proxy 2 gated all in. His micro was fantastic that's is irrefutable. However if you noticed some of the major factors in the game like the 3 hit point SCV finishing the bunker that was bar none, the game ending event. Mind you this is around 5 and a half minutes into the game meaning he is capable of having a max of 10 marines. 10 marine with scv buffer vs a teaspoon of zealots although good micro is nothing that Brood War or Star 2 have yet to witness. Game 2 he 4 rax starport off of 2 base and then threw down another 4 rax before even taking a third. Due to Sage not scouting he was obviously going to be behind in army count. If Sage had been more informed, prepared properly it would have gone 3 games. His storm micro was almost non existent.
As far as 13 minute Starcraft 2 law defying mech attack, well its anything but that. But he outplayed polt in game 1 with great banshee micro simultaneous non stop macro.
Games against July were sub par. Two words that I believe fit JulyZergs play as of recent. The unorthodox strategy in game one was keeping his opponent off balance by forcing him to make units while hard countering him, AFTER he already had done significant damage. Game 2 he saved the game by raising a supply depot. There's nothing amazing about that. He has a great sense of the game and his mechanics are very good.
Just don't jump the gun, he hasn't accomplished anything significant yet, and believe me I'm rooting for him. Although I'm impressed, I know that every one of his skills are matched, nullified, and surpassed by top tier players.
Overall, I like the passion included in your write up, but don't let emotion take priority over your intellect when it comes to a thread.
I have to agree, I thought it was all hype, but his GSL match vs July was superior multitasking + micro compared to what I've mostly seen with other players.
I love all the flashy and effective micro, the safe aggression, but what's really intriguing me about his early game is the commitment he makes to either attack or retreat. Hesitation can be costly, but he was just decisive. It's one of those hard to define qualities. Go back and watch the Open S2 Leenock/Clide game on Shakuras that everyone is so fond of. In the late game of that match, there were multiple points where Leenock could have won outright or Clide could have won outright, but they made half-assed engagements and did a lot of dancing around and hesitating despite having a clear advantage at the time. ForGG hasn't done that so far; granted it's only a sample size of 6 games, and I'm happy to see that.
As for whether or not he's going to be one of the best or fizzle out against tougher opponents, I'll take the same approach I do with everything else - wait and see. One thing I want to see is how that awesome micro translates against opponents who can hold off that early aggression and push him to the mid and late game and do it well. Sage isn't bad, but he's not quite cream of the crop either. He's shown great multitasking, his macro should be flawless, and if his micro looks half as impressive with a full army as it did vs July we're in for a big evolution in play. I also wouldn't mind it if he'd help to prove my theory on SC2's direction/mechanical skill ceiling being heavily micro oriented in the process.
On December 07 2011 07:48 inamorato wrote: I appreciate the write up and his 3 game run is undeniable. Also the recognition of a good Brood War coming from a face whose never played the game or followed it earns my respect.
However some of the statements in this thread are just absurd. It is ANYTHING but easy to suggest that ForGG has the best Micro Starcraft 2 has ever seen, and is insulting to players who've accomplished much more than himself in terms of accomplishments, rewards, and respect.
You're analysis of the games are sub par at best. This isn't a personal attack it is more of me pointing out blasphemy. Again with fin dispalying the best Marine Marauder micro Starcraft 2 has ever seen. In game one vs Sage he proxy 2 gated all in. His micro was fantastic that's is irrefutable. However if you noticed some of the major factors in the game like the 3 hit point SCV finishing the bunker that was bar none, the game ending event. Mind you this is around 5 and a half minutes into the game meaning he is capable of having a max of 10 marines. 10 marine with scv buffer vs a teaspoon of zealots although good micro is nothing that Brood War or Star 2 have yet to witness. Game 2 he 4 rax starport off of 2 base and then threw down another 4 rax before even taking a third. Due to Sage not scouting he was obviously going to be behind in army count. If Sage had been more informed, prepared properly it would have gone 3 games. His storm micro was almost non existent.
As far as 13 minute Starcraft 2 law defying mech attack, well its anything but that. But he outplayed polt in game 1 with great banshee micro simultaneous non stop macro.
Games against July were sub par. Two words that I believe fit JulyZergs play as of recent. The unorthodox strategy in game one was keeping his opponent off balance by forcing him to make units while hard countering him, AFTER he already had done significant damage. Game 2 he saved the game by raising a supply depot. There's nothing amazing about that. He has a great sense of the game and his mechanics are very good.
Just don't jump the gun, he hasn't accomplished anything significant yet, and believe me I'm rooting for him. Although I'm impressed, I know that every one of his skills are matched, nullified, and surpassed by top tier players.
Overall, I like the passion included in your write up, but don't let emotion take priority over your intellect when it comes to a thread.
On December 07 2011 07:59 Rikke wrote: omg OVERRATED! This guy has won like 3 games vs mediocre players, stop the hype kiddies!
it's crazy how these both say the same thing, yet i'm inclined to agree with the top one and disagree with the bottom one.
On December 07 2011 07:59 Rikke wrote: omg OVERRATED! This guy has won like 3 games vs mediocre players, stop the hype kiddies!
MSL champion bro? He beat a golden mouse winner and super tournament champion mediocore? u ez them rofl?
They're all mid-tier players. July has been doing badly ever since his finals match. Sage was up and coming for a little while, but has failed to impress lately, and Polt, while easily among the best terrans three months ago, has been slumping lately.
I don't know if it was the builds he was using, but he actually looked weakest against sage of the 3 sets (still looked very strong). I'm going to go out on a limb and call TvP his weakest MU, fortunately he outclasses all the code S toss pretty handily except maybe MC. His macro looked very strong in all of these games, but I still think the one that stuck out the most was against Polt. I think it was actually impossible for the observer to keep up with what he was doing without just setting the camera to follow him and I'm not even sure everybody would enjoy the going back and forth.
On December 07 2011 07:46 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote: Well balls. I was hoping that these BW guys didn't make everyone look like idiots but it seems they already are. Now I'm actually worried about the state of foreigners in SC2 if more of these monsters come over. Also I don't like that he plays Terran. Why can't he just revolutionize protoss?
lol by the end of 2012 or early 2013 the foreign scene will be like BW except some hardworking foreigners staying in Korea now already.
It may be hastily written and all, but really what do we have against the korean players practicing now already and the current BW progamers switching if everything goes like it has been said about kespa switching to sc2 and all the talk about alot of the players practicing/gonna practice sc2? People may not like this but really, could you tell me then how things would work out for the foreign pros?
On December 07 2011 08:13 TheBomb wrote: Welcome to Brood War world where skill is trully important and its not fake lucky play as we've seen so far in SC2.
I don't think you can say he 'demolished' July. July bane busted him, which is a coin flip if you win or not. And the first game, 2 rax is incredibly strong even after tons of rax and bunker nerfs.
I say his the same as all the current SC2 pro's that played brood war and switched to SC2, and my evidence that his the same is that his been playing for just under a year, the exact same or a little shorter as all these other bw players that switched to SC2, like July, MVP and NaDa. I don't think his any different from these BW A-teamers, and from what I've seen he relies on the dominant early Terran aggression in most of his games. I don't think you can call him one of the best, and at the same time I don't think you can compare him to current BW players who might switch to SC2.
On December 07 2011 04:50 mothergoose729 wrote: In his games against Sage, he showcased probably the best marine/maurader micro that sc2 has ever seen, showing an incredible ability, in game 2, to micro continually while keeping his minerals and gas below 400 the entire time.
I don't want to sound elitist at all although I will, but that's as standard as it gets for BW pros, and more or less standard among top SC2 players.
Forgg is the most established and successful BW pro to have transferred over to SC2, followed by MvP so it's no surprise that his skills acquired from his A class BW status is dominating the SC2 scene, where he faces players with no previous RTS experience, WC3 players, and B teamers.
If anything, 400/400 is still quite a bit of resource. I have FULL confidence, that when the TBLS or other true S class BW players switch over, we're going to see perfect macro from these players until mid-late game, and close to perfect macro in the late game.
I mean, if it's impressive to have the multitask required to macro efficiency while constantly microing for SC2 with the help of MBS, automine, etc., then any A class BW pro that does the same in a much harder game should be called Gods. But then we'd have no name to call Flash;)
Edit:
On December 07 2011 08:20 MonkSEA wrote: I don't think you can say he 'demolished' July. July bane busted him, which is a coin flip if you win or not. And the first game, 2 rax is incredibly strong even after tons of rax and bunker nerfs.
I say his the same as all the current SC2 pro's that played brood war and switched to SC2, and my evidence that his the same is that his been playing for just under a year, the exact same or a little shorter as all these other bw players that switched to SC2, like July, MVP and NaDa. I don't think his any different from these BW A-teamers, and from what I've seen he relies on the dominant early Terran aggression in most of his games. I don't think you can call him one of the best, and at the same time I don't think you can compare him to current BW players who might switch to SC2.
I just have to clear up this misconception, again.
The ONLY other A-teamer to have switched over to SC2 other than ForGG is MvP, and you could argue that even when he did he wasn't a "solid" A-teamer as he only occasionally played games and wasn't part of the regular lineup, which is probably the reason he switched in the first place.
Nada, July, Boxer, etc. are B-teamers who switched over. Sure, they were not just A-class, but S-class at their prime, but that was almost a decade ago. When they switched over, they were B-teamers; they could no longer compete with the younger players (slight exception is Nada, where his skills/results were obviously deteriorating but he still made the occasional RO32 and won the occasional proleague match, whereas the other 2 players pretty much stopped appearing on televised games).
Then you get the eternal B-teamers that switched with the likes of Zergbong (Nestea) and Iron (MC). So in a way, this is the first time that a true A-class BW pro switched over to SC2, who was part of the regular lineup of the champion BW team KT and was actually recognized by fans. On top of that, he has his Code A perfect result to show his promise.
So I don't know why you're so negative, because I sure as hell can't wait to watch him tear shit up, because believe me, he will.
On December 07 2011 07:48 inamorato wrote: I appreciate the write up and his 3 game run is undeniable. Also the recognition of a good Brood War coming from a face whose never played the game or followed it earns my respect.
However some of the statements in this thread are just absurd. It is ANYTHING but easy to suggest that ForGG has the best Micro Starcraft 2 has ever seen, and is insulting to players who've accomplished much more than himself in terms of accomplishments, rewards, and respect.
You're analysis of the games are sub par at best. This isn't a personal attack it is more of me pointing out blasphemy. Again with fin dispalying the best Marine Marauder micro Starcraft 2 has ever seen. In game one vs Sage he proxy 2 gated all in. His micro was fantastic that's is irrefutable. However if you noticed some of the major factors in the game like the 3 hit point SCV finishing the bunker that was bar none, the game ending event. Mind you this is around 5 and a half minutes into the game meaning he is capable of having a max of 10 marines. 10 marine with scv buffer vs a teaspoon of zealots although good micro is nothing that Brood War or Star 2 have yet to witness. Game 2 he 4 rax starport off of 2 base and then threw down another 4 rax before even taking a third. Due to Sage not scouting he was obviously going to be behind in army count. If Sage had been more informed, prepared properly it would have gone 3 games. His storm micro was almost non existent.
As far as 13 minute Starcraft 2 law defying mech attack, well its anything but that. But he outplayed polt in game 1 with great banshee micro simultaneous non stop macro.
Games against July were sub par. Two words that I believe fit JulyZergs play as of recent. The unorthodox strategy in game one was keeping his opponent off balance by forcing him to make units while hard countering him, AFTER he already had done significant damage. Game 2 he saved the game by raising a supply depot. There's nothing amazing about that. He has a great sense of the game and his mechanics are very good.
Just don't jump the gun, he hasn't accomplished anything significant yet, and believe me I'm rooting for him. Although I'm impressed, I know that every one of his skills are matched, nullified, and surpassed by top tier players.
Overall, I like the passion included in your write up, but don't let emotion take priority over your intellect when it comes to a thread.
Good points, all valid criticisms.
My attempt with this thread was to high light specifics of his play that were really good. I stand by my statement before that the micro he displayed in those games was the best micro I have seen in any other sc2 games. Its great that a lot of people don't agree with me though. There is certainly a lot of good micro to compare that too.
What I wanted to point out the most, and what I think a lot of people picked up on, is that he played starcraft differently in those games then most players, and it looked really promising. I would like to see him play like that in code S and I believe that style could take him far. It is certainly not a forgone conclusion he will win a GSL. I will be more shocked if he wins the next season then if he does poorly. I am hopeful he does well and expect to see lots more of him in the future.
fin is definitely skillful you cannot deny that but lets not get hyped up too much. players who are good at bw should be good at sc2 but you cant just say one game takes more skill than the other.
On December 07 2011 07:46 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote: Well balls. I was hoping that these BW guys didn't make everyone look like idiots but it seems they already are. Now I'm actually worried about the state of foreigners in SC2 if more of these monsters come over. Also I don't like that he plays Terran. Why can't he just revolutionize protoss?
lol by the end of 2012 or early 2013 the foreign scene will be like BW except some hardworking foreigners staying in Korea now already.
It may be hastily written and all, but really what do we have against the korean players practicing now already and the current BW progamers switching if everything goes like it has been said about kespa switching to sc2 and all the talk about alot of the players practicing/gonna practice sc2? People may not like this but really, could you tell me then how things would work out for the foreign pros?
They aren't practicing sc2. I think there was a period where they tried it out in the off season because they didn't know the direction kespa wanted to take it, but teams now are 100% focused on proleague.
1. If he plays poorly, that's because he has passed his prime, blah blah blah 1. If he plays well, that's because he is, well, a BW pro and is destined to crush the current SC2 scene.
On December 07 2011 08:22 aintz wrote: fin is definitely skillful you cannot deny that but lets not get hyped up too much. players who are good at bw should be good at sc2 but you cant just say one game takes more skill than the other.
All other things aside, the AI/pathing, no-auto harvest, 12 control group limit, etc...of BW are much harder things to deal with. So all other things equal (which idk if that's even true), BW is a harder game with more skill required. How is Sc2 just as high of a skill requirement as broodwar, when it is much easier to execute as a whole.
His build vs July on Tal'Darim was just.. i dont even. And it even got set back a bit by him losing the tech lab, just tiny things he did that made alot of sense but nobody ever does, like walling his army in with bunkers while sieging July's nat and stuff.
On December 07 2011 08:25 canikizu wrote: A pro BW plays SC2:
1. If he plays poorly, that's because he has passed his prime, blah blah blah 1. If he plays well, that's because he is, well, a BW pro and is destined to crush the current SC2 scene.
Either way, BW keeps its clean image.
Your logic fails pretty hard.
A BW pro plays SC2. It is BECAUSE that he is old and past his prime, that he does not succeed. Nevertheless, several BW pros past their prime such as Boxer, Nada, and July, have had limited success in SC2. A statement is not logically equivalent to its converse. A fireman comes save the burning house because there was a fire. The converse is clearly not true . . . . firemen saving houses do not cause fires.
A BW pro with recent success in BW plays SC2 and demonstrates dominance (forGG, MVP, Puma probably the best to switch over), because he was successful at BW.
OMG GUY BEATS FADING SC2 PROS WITH IMPECCABLE MICRO AND CHEESE ATTACKS
BONJWAAAAAAA
lol. No doubt he's good enough for code S but there is no point in obsessing over someone being "BETTER THAN EVERYONE" unless he actually wins something.
Now MVP did win that series but it was a rather bloody set with some extremely long games (If you've never seen that game on Meta, you should). MVP was clearly dominant, but aside from the bunker rush on Antiga, July didn't just roll over and die immediately. ForGG, on the other hand, completely managed to cripple July both games in his very first attack, and he didn't cheese or all-in doing it, either, he used a very small number of units to maximum effect and macroed up an even bigger attack behind it.
I think July is a good reference point because as much as I am a fan of him, I feel like in recent months July's sc2 skill has remained constant while everyone else in Code S has either shot well beyond him, or was better than him to begin with.
That's why I'm convinced ForGG is already one of the best at SC2, myself. MVP crushed July, but ForGG pulverized him, then threw the remains into a blackhole and reduced July to a singularity.
Also remember Polt was on the other side of this bracket in the RO4, who ForGG also roflstomped with relative ease.
I imagine absolutely nobody is going to have the balls to pick him in group selection. This means that next season we have an almost 95% guarantee of seeing Leenock vs ForGG, who will be the poor sap stuck in group H on merit of getting 2nd place. If he beats Leenock, then I think there's no question anymore.
Edit: I just skimmed the antiga game to refresh my memory and I forgot MVP did a double proxy that game. So basically in order to reach comparable levels of humiliation against July, MVP had to double proxy right in his face, whereas ForGG built one barracks at the edge of his main's cliff. This just reenforces the point about relative destruction I was trying to make.
On December 07 2011 08:25 canikizu wrote: A pro BW plays SC2:
1. If he plays poorly, that's because he has passed his prime, blah blah blah 1. If he plays well, that's because he is, well, a BW pro and is destined to crush the current SC2 scene.
Either way, BW keeps its clean image.
Name a BW pro who plays Sc2 poorly? July,MVP,Nestea,boxer,nada,MC all have achieved Code S (pretty sure all have got to top 4 if I'm not mistaken), all have placed well at MLG events, all are a threat to get top 4 in any tournament they enter. So which former BW pro's are you referring to? Unless not getting 1st place at GSL or MLG equals playing poorly in your mind. Keep in mind that of these players, the ones that haven't placed first (Boxer, Nada, July) got top 2 finishes in BW OSL's and MSL's years apart. They all had slumps and rose back up. NEVER count them out and to say they play poorly is just ignorant. They have their slumps but who doesn't? They are ALL excellent SC2 players.
On December 07 2011 05:44 Zoler wrote: People don't understand. ForGG is the best one to switch now.
Before this there wasn't a close to good ex-bw progamer playing SC2. Nada, Nestea and Boxer, they were all nothing.
By best one to switch now, I hope you mean the one in best form when he switched. Because I'm fairly certain we've already had a few BW banjos in SC2 for a while.
?
AHAHAHAHAH!!! SO MUCH WIN!
holy crap. first time tl.net put a smile on my face longer than 5 seconds.
"The way I play is to create a pattern where I have an advantage, and then crush my opponents with momentum. That way my opponent can’t play with 100% of his skill. That’s why I think mind-games are more important than skill." - iloveoov
I'd describe his play as being more tactic-centric as compared to strategy-centric than we have been seeing from top players since beta
This will be the case for all BW pros that switch, utter and unstoppable domination
Now MVP did win that series but it was a rather bloody set with some extremely long games (If you've never seen that game on Meta, you should). MVP was clearly dominant, but aside from the bunker rush on Antiga, July didn't just roll over and die immediately. ForGG, on the other hand, completely managed to cripple July both games in his very first attack, and he didn't cheese or all-in doing it, either, he used a very small number of units to maximum effect and macroed up an even bigger attack behind it.
I think July is a good reference point because as much as I am a fan of him, I feel like in recent months July's sc2 skill has remained constant while everyone else in Code S has either shot well beyond him, or was better than him to begin with.
That's why I'm convinced ForGG is already one of the best at SC2, myself. MVP crushed July, but ForGG pulverized him.
I imagine absolutely nobody is going to have the balls to pick him in group selection. This means that next season we have an almost 95% guarantee of seeing Leenock vs ForGG, who will be the poor sap stuck in group H on merit of getting 2nd place. If he beats Leenock, then I think there's no question anymore.
MVP v July was from months ago, so IDK if that's the best comparison...
Also, no one is underrating him, from what I can see, most people are just saying that 3 series against mid-tier pros are not the damning evidence we need to crown him the GoAT of SC2 yet. I watched him against July and he looked really good, sure, but also lucky. I want to see a nice Bo5 or a Bo7 against MVP, NesTea, Leenock, Jjakji, Oz, etc. before I make my predictions.
Now MVP did win that series but it was a rather bloody set with some extremely long games (If you've never seen that game on Meta, you should). MVP was clearly dominant, but aside from the bunker rush on Antiga, July didn't just roll over and die immediately. ForGG, on the other hand, completely managed to cripple July both games in his very first attack, and he didn't cheese or all-in doing it, either, he used a very small number of units to maximum effect and macroed up an even bigger attack behind it.
I think July is a good reference point because as much as I am a fan of him, I feel like in recent months July's sc2 skill has remained constant while everyone else in Code S has either shot well beyond him, or was better than him to begin with.
That's why I'm convinced ForGG is already one of the best at SC2, myself. MVP crushed July, but ForGG pulverized him.
I imagine absolutely nobody is going to have the balls to pick him in group selection. This means that next season we have an almost 95% guarantee of seeing Leenock vs ForGG, who will be the poor sap stuck in group H on merit of getting 2nd place. If he beats Leenock, then I think there's no question anymore.
MVP v July was from months ago, so IDK if that's the best comparison...
Also, no one is underrating him, from what I can see, most people are just saying that 3 series against mid-tier pros are not the damning evidence we need to crown him the GoAT of SC2 yet. I watched him against July and he looked really good, sure, but also lucky. I want to see a nice Bo5 or a Bo7 against MVP, NesTea, Leenock, Jjakji, Oz, etc. before I make my predictions.
That being said... dude is obviously legit.
Pretty much my thoughts exactly, take it slow people.
On December 07 2011 08:25 canikizu wrote: A pro BW plays SC2:
1. If he plays poorly, that's because he has passed his prime, blah blah blah 1. If he plays well, that's because he is, well, a BW pro and is destined to crush the current SC2 scene.
Either way, BW keeps its clean image.
Nada is a part time player in SC2 and for the longest time was regularly placing in the top 16 or better at almost every tournament.
On December 07 2011 08:50 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:
Now MVP did win that series but it was a rather bloody set with some extremely long games (If you've never seen that game on Meta, you should). MVP was clearly dominant, but aside from the bunker rush on Antiga, July didn't just roll over and die immediately. ForGG, on the other hand, completely managed to cripple July both games in his very first attack, and he didn't cheese or all-in doing it, either, he used a very small number of units to maximum effect and macroed up an even bigger attack behind it.
I think July is a good reference point because as much as I am a fan of him, I feel like in recent months July's sc2 skill has remained constant while everyone else in Code S has either shot well beyond him, or was better than him to begin with.
That's why I'm convinced ForGG is already one of the best at SC2, myself. MVP crushed July, but ForGG pulverized him.
I imagine absolutely nobody is going to have the balls to pick him in group selection. This means that next season we have an almost 95% guarantee of seeing Leenock vs ForGG, who will be the poor sap stuck in group H on merit of getting 2nd place. If he beats Leenock, then I think there's no question anymore.
MVP v July was from months ago, so IDK if that's the best comparison...
Also, no one is underrating him, from what I can see, most people are just saying that 3 series against mid-tier pros are not the damning evidence we need to crown him the GoAT of SC2 yet. I watched him against July and he looked really good, sure, but also lucky. I want to see a nice Bo5 or a Bo7 against MVP, NesTea, Leenock, Jjakji, Oz, etc. before I make my predictions.
That being said... dude is obviously legit.
LOL.
PoltPrime is a GSL winner, and still regularly does well in most tournaments he plays in.
JulyZerg is a multiple GSL finalist.
Sage is the most underachieved and yet still is touted as one of the most talented Protoss prospects coming out of Korea.
Yeah.... mid tier pros. That would stomp the living shit out of 95% of the foreign pros.
GUYS REMEMBER when DRG showed up to team league and crushed everyone to pieces? And then he did it again ? Same old story. ForGG looks crazy good no doubt, but 3 Code A games while a huge achievement is nothing to go by. You know who else did it ? Parting and Brown also beat top players some of whom are better (at the moment) than July or a Polt. You could talk about the "manner" in which they did it and how dominating ForGG was (he was it was embarrasing for his opponents) but the jury's still out sorry.
Now MVP did win that series but it was a rather bloody set with some extremely long games (If you've never seen that game on Meta, you should). MVP was clearly dominant, but aside from the bunker rush on Antiga, July didn't just roll over and die immediately. ForGG, on the other hand, completely managed to cripple July both games in his very first attack, and he didn't cheese or all-in doing it, either, he used a very small number of units to maximum effect and macroed up an even bigger attack behind it.
I think July is a good reference point because as much as I am a fan of him, I feel like in recent months July's sc2 skill has remained constant while everyone else in Code S has either shot well beyond him, or was better than him to begin with.
That's why I'm convinced ForGG is already one of the best at SC2, myself. MVP crushed July, but ForGG pulverized him, then threw the remains into a blackhole and reduced July to a singularity.
Also remember Polt was on the other side of this bracket in the RO4, who ForGG also roflstomped with relative ease.
I imagine absolutely nobody is going to have the balls to pick him in group selection. This means that next season we have an almost 95% guarantee of seeing Leenock vs ForGG, who will be the poor sap stuck in group H on merit of getting 2nd place. If he beats Leenock, then I think there's no question anymore.
The problem with referencing anything from a GSL two seasons ago with a new game is just that, it's still a relatively new game (only 1 year? people were still 1 basing in professional BW one year into it's existence). Keep in mind that while ForGG's performance against July/Polt is impressive, keep in mind that Sage has yet to accomplish anything yet (and those games were nothing impressive to watch, 1 base coin flip build first game on Daybreak, and an allinish second game from ForGG with a "let's get every tech" build from Sage on Bel'Shir)
1. Polt has looked less than impressive since his Super Tournament wins. His most recent Code S appearance before falling to Code A was in a relatively weak looking group, consisting of (now champion Leenock, but we didn't know he would turn into a sick nerd baller this month especially), a decidedly unimpressive Ganzi, and the mediocre Terran with good TvT Ensnare.
2. July just has not looked like himself the past two GSLs, with early exits in each and extremely weird games (especially in his games in GSL November, wtf control?) and is looking like he is done with professional gaming once he hits his military service.
Yes, ForGG has shown some incredible multitasking, and his macro is in general pretty good, however, most of these top SC2 players have excellent macro (MVP, weirdly Jjakji, NesTea, etc.) while others have shown that less than excellent macro can be made up for with excellent control and decision making etc. (Leenock, HuK etc.). I am less than impressed, and watched his matches after these threads popping up. What stands out to you? His "perfect" MMM micro is hardly perfect, he spends his time dodging storms (like you should do) and hitting things WHEN HE CAN (like you also should do).
The main difference between him and the SC2 pros is that he comes from the A class and A team BW mentality which focuses on hard practice, whilst his SC2 counterparts are not in the same rigid environment. Small wonder ForGG has come along as far as he has in the short amount of time with his hard work and raw talent in RTS games.
TL;DR ForGG is hardly the most impressive thing I've seen in SC2, although he has clearly shown that the background in BW professional gaming gives him the practice edge to improve much more rapidly than the existing scene. I wish people would wait before posting these types of threads this quickly, he hasn't even come through Code A yet. Two seasons from now if he's still performing like he is, THEN can we get really hyped up?
Yeah.... mid tier pros. That would stomp the living shit out of 95% of the foreign pros.
Yeah, mid tier pros. There are amazing Quarterbacks; better than almost every single other QB alive; and they get to the NFL and they find out that they are mid-tier pros. Best of the Best become mid-tier when they are paired with the Best of the Best of the Best.
PoltPrime is a GSL winner, and still regularly does well in most tournaments he plays in.
JulyZerg is a multiple GSL finalist.
We can turn this argument around you know? Boxer was the best BW player in the world at one time. I guess he can't be beat by anyone who isn't the absolute best of all time? Oh wait... months can mean a LOT. Just because you played real well a couple of months ago does not mean you are still top tier. They are in Code A for a reason.
On December 07 2011 08:22 aintz wrote: fin is definitely skillful you cannot deny that but lets not get hyped up too much. players who are good at bw should be good at sc2 but you cant just say one game takes more skill than the other.
All other things aside, the AI/pathing, no-auto harvest, 12 control group limit, etc...of BW are much harder things to deal with. So all other things equal (which idk if that's even true), BW is a harder game with more skill required. How is Sc2 just as high of a skill requirement as broodwar, when it is much easier to execute as a whole.
because its easier for both people and if there aren't limitations, they can do other things. For example multitasking in bw, the highest feeling was macroing their base and being at 2 places at once. Which some diamond level player are capable of. Means if you are good you will be able to be at 4 places at once.
As for forGG's success, its a playstyle the others weren't really used to, thats why he poofed through 3 differen races with ease, as they weren't really able to prepare, while their playstyle were well known. Added some underestimation and there you go. MLG Dreamhack and all those weekender tournaments where foreigners and korean meet, are a good example of this, especially naniwa who likes to march through the tournament because of his unique micro style.
On December 07 2011 08:59 las91 wrote: The problem with referencing anything from a GSL two seasons ago with a new game is just that, it's still a relatively new game (only 1 year? people were still 1 basing in professional BW one year into it's existence). Keep in mind that while ForGG's performance against July/Polt is impressive, keep in mind that Sage has yet to accomplish anything yet (and those games were nothing impressive to watch, 1 base coin flip build first game on Daybreak, and an allinish second game from ForGG with a "let's get every tech" build from Sage on Bel'Shir)
see i don't actually agree with that
3 months ago is not an eternity and the metagame is developing slower than it used to, especially TvZ
There have only really been two major shifts that effect TvZ, and both them were the result of balance changes: 1) BFH nerf forced all terrans into reactor hellion openings at a time when it seemed either opening was viable 2) Gold bases are gone
TvP has undergone some major shifts, I will agree with you on that, so we really cannot base anything off of his game with Sage
That leaves polt, who has been struggling in TvT since the super tournament, and I feel it's not that he's fallen off mechanically, but rather his problem is that he keeps playing a TvT style that plain doesn't work now.
comparing gsl january to gsl march i see your point, but i think comparing gsl august to gsl november is fair
Has been GM forever, it's not like he started recently. He might be awesome, he might not be, let's wait and see. The hype is way too big at this point, given he has played people who are in slumps or overhyped. Let's see him against someone who is legitimately top 5 at their race before we say anything. The only person who might be considered a top 20 player out of those 3 at the moment is Polt, but based off recent results that argument is difficult. (MVP, Jjakji, MMA, Taeja, Supernova/Happy // MC, OZ, Puzzle, Hero, HuK // Nestea, DRG, Curious, Coca/Losira, Leenock)
On December 07 2011 08:22 aintz wrote: fin is definitely skillful you cannot deny that but lets not get hyped up too much. players who are good at bw should be good at sc2 but you cant just say one game takes more skill than the other.
All other things aside, the AI/pathing, no-auto harvest, 12 control group limit, etc...of BW are much harder things to deal with. So all other things equal (which idk if that's even true), BW is a harder game with more skill required. How is Sc2 just as high of a skill requirement as broodwar, when it is much easier to execute as a whole.
because its easier for both people and if there aren't limitations, they can do other things. For example multitasking in bw, the highest feeling was macroing their base and being at 2 places at once. Which some diamond level player are capable of. Means if you are good you will be able to be at 4 places at once.
As for forGG's success, its a playstyle the others weren't really used to, thats why he poofed through 3 differen races with ease, as they weren't really able to prepare, while their playstyle were well known. Added some underestimation and there you go. MLG Dreamhack and all those weekender tournaments where foreigners and korean meet, are a good example of this, especially naniwa who likes to march through the tournament because of his unique micro style.
So don't overreact. its just the unknown factor.
Have you even watched BW? Seriously, if you're going to comment on stuff like this you should at least be familar with both games
I'm excited for ForGG, but I'm also interested in Parting and Brown. Brown took out Ryung and Losira while Parting took out TOP, Clide, and Killer! Wow
Quick timing pushes the current pros aren't watching for aren't all that exciting.
In the july match the 2nd game july was very close to taking him out. If you watch the last matches that Slayers_Boxer had in Code A with the Reaper/Hellion/Banshee push it looks very similar to ForGGs style. A blip in the meta game that will be figued out and hard countered.
I'll get on ForGGs bandwagon when I actually see him play a full game and not just a quick rush that his opponent misread.
Edit: The biggest thing people need to take into account. The GSL code S was VERY stagnet with the old model and there were MANY code S players that didn't belong there. The new model is allowing that to be cleaned out. This is why so many great names are losing, they should never have had been great but got there early and were able to get locked in. Looking at it from that angle may change the perception of ForGGs accomplishments.
"The way I play is to create a pattern where I have an advantage, and then crush my opponents with momentum. That way my opponent can’t play with 100% of his skill. That’s why I think mind-games are more important than skill." - iloveoov
I'd describe his play as being more tactic-centric as compared to strategy-centric than we have been seeing from top players since beta
This will be the case for all BW pros that switch, utter and unstoppable domination
So, in other words, all this nonsense about volatility dies once the Brood War players shift over en masse?
On December 07 2011 08:54 Rebs wrote: GUYS REMEMBER when DRG showed up to team league and crushed everyone to pieces? And then he did it again ? Same old story. ForGG looks crazy good no doubt, but 3 Code A games while a huge achievement is nothing to go by. You know who else did it ? Parting and Brown also beat top players some of whom are better (at the moment) than July or a Polt. You could talk about the "manner" in which they did it and how dominating ForGG was (he was it was embarrasing for his opponents) but the jury's still out sorry.
I wasn't that impressed early with DRG and he grew on me.
On December 07 2011 08:22 aintz wrote: fin is definitely skillful you cannot deny that but lets not get hyped up too much. players who are good at bw should be good at sc2 but you cant just say one game takes more skill than the other.
All other things aside, the AI/pathing, no-auto harvest, 12 control group limit, etc...of BW are much harder things to deal with. So all other things equal (which idk if that's even true), BW is a harder game with more skill required. How is Sc2 just as high of a skill requirement as broodwar, when it is much easier to execute as a whole.
because its easier for both people and if there aren't limitations, they can do other things. For example multitasking in bw, the highest feeling was macroing their base and being at 2 places at once. Which some diamond level player are capable of. Means if you are good you will be able to be at 4 places at once.
As for forGG's success, its a playstyle the others weren't really used to, thats why he poofed through 3 differen races with ease, as they weren't really able to prepare, while their playstyle were well known. Added some underestimation and there you go. MLG Dreamhack and all those weekender tournaments where foreigners and korean meet, are a good example of this, especially naniwa who likes to march through the tournament because of his unique micro style.
So don't overreact. its just the unknown factor.
Have you even watched BW? Seriously, if you're going to comment on stuff like this you should at least be familar with both games
You did a terrible job of addressing his point by overlooking the fact that it was an example. He's essentially saying that the limitation caused by the difficult macro effected multitasking; as in the hallmark of a top BW player was the ability to macro flawlessly and be in X places at once with his multitasking. He then posits that since macro is easier in SC2, the hallmark of a good player will be that he'll have to be doing twice as much multitasking (and that easier macro will allow him to do so).
In that regard, I agree with him. This has been a long held belief of mine that
1) If you have perfect AI controlled machines controlling the action, then yes, the skill ceiling of BW is higher.
2) With human players, the skill ceiling of either game is out of reach and thus neither game is 'harder,' within the realms of what a human can attain. In other words, no person can ever be good enough at SC2 or BW to demonstrate that one is clearly harder. BW just happens to have over a decade of a headstart in development.
3) With the easier macro in SC2, more of a players mechanical ability will simply be diverted to other areas. Think of it like this. If the idea of 'skill' or mechanics were to be illustrated as 50% emphasis on micro / 50% emphasis on macro (a gross oversimplification) in BW, then SC2 may develop into more of a 65/35 split. The two games would be/will be equally taxing in two different proportions.
the dark horse remains dark, but not for long ! he;... shall be painted red by the blood and the nerds he slays on his way to CODE A GLORY!!!! there can be only uno !
On December 07 2011 08:22 aintz wrote: fin is definitely skillful you cannot deny that but lets not get hyped up too much. players who are good at bw should be good at sc2 but you cant just say one game takes more skill than the other.
All other things aside, the AI/pathing, no-auto harvest, 12 control group limit, etc...of BW are much harder things to deal with. So all other things equal (which idk if that's even true), BW is a harder game with more skill required. How is Sc2 just as high of a skill requirement as broodwar, when it is much easier to execute as a whole.
because its easier for both people and if there aren't limitations, they can do other things. For example multitasking in bw, the highest feeling was macroing their base and being at 2 places at once. Which some diamond level player are capable of. Means if you are good you will be able to be at 4 places at once.
As for forGG's success, its a playstyle the others weren't really used to, thats why he poofed through 3 differen races with ease, as they weren't really able to prepare, while their playstyle were well known. Added some underestimation and there you go. MLG Dreamhack and all those weekender tournaments where foreigners and korean meet, are a good example of this, especially naniwa who likes to march through the tournament because of his unique micro style.
So don't overreact. its just the unknown factor.
Have you even watched BW? Seriously, if you're going to comment on stuff like this you should at least be familar with both games
You did a terrible job of addressing his point by overlooking the fact that it was an example. He's essentially saying that the limitation caused by the difficult macro effected multitasking; as in the hallmark of a top BW player was the ability to macro flawlessly and be in X places at once with his multitasking. He then posits that since macro is easier in SC2, the hallmark of a good player will be that he'll have to be doing twice as much multitasking (and that easier macro will allow him to do so).
In that regard, I agree with him. This has been a long held belief of mine that
1) If you have perfect AI controlled machines controlling the action, then yes, the skill ceiling of BW is higher.
2) With human players, the skill ceiling of either game is out of reach and thus neither game is 'harder,' within the realms of what a human can attain. In other words, no person can ever be good enough at SC2 or BW to demonstrate that one is clearly harder. BW just happens to have over a decade of a headstart in development.
3) With the easier macro in SC2, more of a players mechanical ability will simply be diverted other areas. Think of it like this, if the idea of 'skill' or mechanics were to be illustrated as 50% emphasis on micro/50% emphasis on macro (a gross oversimplification) in BW, then SC2 may develop into more of a 65/35 split. The two games would be/will be equally taxing in two different proportions.
Sure, that might be true if certain other factors were true. However most micro in SC2 is pretty easy/and or capped at a specific point (atleast compared to BW/WC3, etc micro). There are a few exceptions (blink micro, marine splitting), but even those have a realistic cap that will only ever be broken by machines. So if BW micro is harder, how does that point work out then? No matter how much time you devote to something, you will not be able to break it's cap, unless you are doing multiple things at once. (splitting two groups of marines in two places, etc)
So that leaves multi-tasking as the only area. But even that has specific limitations. A player might be able to do 6 things at once as opposed to 4 things in BW, but if those 4 things he's doing in BW are a lot more complicated and show more talent than the 6 things, then what is the point? I suppose there might be some people who would prefer watching the 6 things, but I know I wouldn't.
Anyways that's why I really want to see Blizzard add more micro mechanics to SC2, because that, imo is where it is lacking most. Macro can be determined easier by players having to micro/macro at the same time.
On December 07 2011 07:48 inamorato wrote: I appreciate the write up and his 3 game run is undeniable. Also the recognition of a good Brood War coming from a face whose never played the game or followed it earns my respect.
However some of the statements in this thread are just absurd. It is ANYTHING but easy to suggest that ForGG has the best Micro Starcraft 2 has ever seen, and is insulting to players who've accomplished much more than himself in terms of accomplishments, rewards, and respect.
You're analysis of the games are sub par at best. This isn't a personal attack it is more of me pointing out blasphemy. Again with fin dispalying the best Marine Marauder micro Starcraft 2 has ever seen. In game one vs Sage he proxy 2 gated all in. His micro was fantastic that's is irrefutable. However if you noticed some of the major factors in the game like the 3 hit point SCV finishing the bunker that was bar none, the game ending event. Mind you this is around 5 and a half minutes into the game meaning he is capable of having a max of 10 marines. 10 marine with scv buffer vs a teaspoon of zealots although good micro is nothing that Brood War or Star 2 have yet to witness. Game 2 he 4 rax starport off of 2 base and then threw down another 4 rax before even taking a third. Due to Sage not scouting he was obviously going to be behind in army count. If Sage had been more informed, prepared properly it would have gone 3 games. His storm micro was almost non existent.
As far as 13 minute Starcraft 2 law defying mech attack, well its anything but that. But he outplayed polt in game 1 with great banshee micro simultaneous non stop macro.
Games against July were sub par. Two words that I believe fit JulyZergs play as of recent. The unorthodox strategy in game one was keeping his opponent off balance by forcing him to make units while hard countering him, AFTER he already had done significant damage. Game 2 he saved the game by raising a supply depot. There's nothing amazing about that. He has a great sense of the game and his mechanics are very good.
Just don't jump the gun, he hasn't accomplished anything significant yet, and believe me I'm rooting for him. Although I'm impressed, I know that every one of his skills are matched, nullified, and surpassed by top tier players.
Overall, I like the passion included in your write up, but don't let emotion take priority over your intellect when it comes to a thread.
Good points, all valid criticisms.
My attempt with this thread was to high light specifics of his play that were really good. I stand by my statement before that the micro he displayed in those games was the best micro I have seen in any other sc2 games. Its great that a lot of people don't agree with me though. There is certainly a lot of good micro to compare that too.
What I wanted to point out the most, and what I think a lot of people picked up on, is that he played starcraft differently in those games then most players, and it looked really promising. I would like to see him play like that in code S and I believe that style could take him far. It is certainly not a forgone conclusion he will win a GSL. I will be more shocked if he wins the next season then if he does poorly. I am hopeful he does well and expect to see lots more of him in the future.
You and I as well as the rest of the community could go back and forth as to who has the best micro in Starcraft 2, but it would be frivolous. The great thing about opening a thread is everyone is entitled to their own opinion, as well as everyone being able to hold an opinion of indifference or opposite polarity.
What I would like to point out that quite possibly convinces people of great control is the amount of units on the field, which can be deceiving. ForGG's micro while superb, isn't what sets him apart from the rest of the pack. It is his ability to micro at a significantly high level while multitasking. Macro, crisis management, rerally, rebind, and all while simultaneously controlling his units. Where as some players miss their Barracks ques and rely completely on micro their economy goes through the ceiling because they put all their bags in one basket.
What impresses me the most isn't ForGGs alleged top tier anything. It is his well roundness, and versatility to be in control of ridiculous amount of actions, almost simultaneously. Even minute actions. Rebinding hot keys mid battle while grinding out units through every barracks while containing DT drops.
As far as him playing Star2 differently in conjunction to other players, I see small idiosyncrasies that set him apart. He is one guy who commits fully to what he is doing and so far I've yet to see him second guess himself which is a great characteristic to have. His game sense in my opinion is what sets him apart. When he threw down an extra 4 rax on belshir vs Sage in game 2 on only 2 bases after being harassed at both his front door and his mineral line. He had minerals piling up from defending, while mule dropping so he spent it immediately on another 4 barracks which gave him such a ridiculous amount of units in a short period of time with the ability to reinforce.
Game 1 against July where he opened with 3 reapers into banshee was a very different an innovative build because it forced July to make a decision. A decision that in 99 cases out of 100 after stepping in dog shit on his way to the office to make this decision, he couldn't come out on top. The reapers did a significant amount of damage and Julys decision was roach which is just what one would ask for going cloak banshee.
All in all I respect your opinion and I understand the excitement that runs through your veins and raises the hair on your whole body after witnessing a great Brood War player without any respect in Star 2 come in and do well.
The bracket is only going to get harder so I won't put all my eggs in his basket, but I've been a fan for years so I will definitely be rooting for him. Would love to see him and Boxer go at it seeing as they both advanced.
On December 07 2011 07:59 Rikke wrote: omg OVERRATED! This guy has won like 3 games vs mediocre players, stop the hype kiddies!
MSL champion bro? He beat a golden mouse winner and super tournament champion mediocore? u ez them rofl?
Doesn't matter what he did 5years ago in a different game lolz! If he wins the next 2 GSLs we can talk again
this thread is directed to a starcraft fan like you!
even if he gets to RO4/RO2 twice in the next two gom tournaments, it is worth talking about him. but this is also where being a fan of a sport comes from, u wanna hate? get ready to appreciate : )
Yeah ForGG is pretty damn sick. I hope to see him and any other BW pros that switch over continue to revolutionize SC2 in the way that MVP and Nestea did.
On December 07 2011 08:54 Rebs wrote: GUYS REMEMBER when DRG showed up to team league and crushed everyone to pieces? And then he did it again ? Same old story. ForGG looks crazy good no doubt, but 3 Code A games while a huge achievement is nothing to go by. You know who else did it ? Parting and Brown also beat top players some of whom are better (at the moment) than July or a Polt. You could talk about the "manner" in which they did it and how dominating ForGG was (he was it was embarrasing for his opponents) but the jury's still out sorry.
I don't understand the comparison you're making, are you implying that DRG isn't a top level player?
As a matter of fact, it turns out that everyone who predicted DRG will be a monster not only during the team leagues, but even before that, based on his stream alone - was actually right.
Just like everyone who predicted Bomber and MMA will be top players based on the play they showed very early in their career was right.
Hell, people didn't even want to see or believe that MVP was a top player until he actually won GSL for the first time, even though it was freaking obvious to everyone who watched him play in his first season.
Every single game is relevant, especially televized games. If you don't want to watch the games and the manner in which someone plays doesn't matter to you, then why are you participating in a discussion about someone's skill level in the first place?
On December 07 2011 07:59 Rikke wrote: omg OVERRATED! This guy has won like 3 games vs mediocre players, stop the hype kiddies!
MSL champion bro? He beat a golden mouse winner and super tournament champion mediocore? u ez them rofl?
Doesn't matter what he did 5years ago in a different game lolz! If he wins the next 2 GSLs we can talk again
Why do your posts in a thought provoking thread contain 0 content? Here's an idea. When you have any empirical data or any information of the games you can talk again.
Until then you could just type post's like these in a notepad document save it, and reformat your computer just so that we're sure it doesn't find its way into a thread containing years prior until this very moment of passion.
On December 07 2011 08:25 canikizu wrote: A pro BW plays SC2:
1. If he plays poorly, that's because he has passed his prime, blah blah blah 1. If he plays well, that's because he is, well, a BW pro and is destined to crush the current SC2 scene.
Either way, BW keeps its clean image.
Nada is a part time player in SC2 and for the longest time was regularly placing in the top 16 or better at almost every tournament.
Now MVP did win that series but it was a rather bloody set with some extremely long games (If you've never seen that game on Meta, you should). MVP was clearly dominant, but aside from the bunker rush on Antiga, July didn't just roll over and die immediately. ForGG, on the other hand, completely managed to cripple July both games in his very first attack, and he didn't cheese or all-in doing it, either, he used a very small number of units to maximum effect and macroed up an even bigger attack behind it.
I think July is a good reference point because as much as I am a fan of him, I feel like in recent months July's sc2 skill has remained constant while everyone else in Code S has either shot well beyond him, or was better than him to begin with.
That's why I'm convinced ForGG is already one of the best at SC2, myself. MVP crushed July, but ForGG pulverized him.
I imagine absolutely nobody is going to have the balls to pick him in group selection. This means that next season we have an almost 95% guarantee of seeing Leenock vs ForGG, who will be the poor sap stuck in group H on merit of getting 2nd place. If he beats Leenock, then I think there's no question anymore.
MVP v July was from months ago, so IDK if that's the best comparison...
Also, no one is underrating him, from what I can see, most people are just saying that 3 series against mid-tier pros are not the damning evidence we need to crown him the GoAT of SC2 yet. I watched him against July and he looked really good, sure, but also lucky. I want to see a nice Bo5 or a Bo7 against MVP, NesTea, Leenock, Jjakji, Oz, etc. before I make my predictions.
That being said... dude is obviously legit.
LOL.
PoltPrime is a GSL winner, and still regularly does well in most tournaments he plays in.
JulyZerg is a multiple GSL finalist.
Sage is the most underachieved and yet still is touted as one of the most talented Protoss prospects coming out of Korea.
Yeah.... mid tier pros. That would stomp the living shit out of 95% of the foreign pros.
yeah polt and july really stomped the shit out of foreign pros at mlg
I think some of you guys are going a little overboard here.
Granted I haven't watched more than g2 vs Polt, but I didn't see anything we haven't seen a million times before in that game. What was special was that I was getting annoyed at the casters hype, that doesn't bother me usually, but it seemed like we were watching different games.
I also remember Fin flying up to 800 minerals while microing a single reaper, I remember that because whenever someone is being complemented on their control early in the game I glaze over to the bank.
If he looked like a God in the other games, go ahead hype him up. If it was anything like g2 vs Polt, then simmer down guys.
On December 07 2011 08:22 aintz wrote: fin is definitely skillful you cannot deny that but lets not get hyped up too much. players who are good at bw should be good at sc2 but you cant just say one game takes more skill than the other.
All other things aside, the AI/pathing, no-auto harvest, 12 control group limit, etc...of BW are much harder things to deal with. So all other things equal (which idk if that's even true), BW is a harder game with more skill required. How is Sc2 just as high of a skill requirement as broodwar, when it is much easier to execute as a whole.
because its easier for both people and if there aren't limitations, they can do other things. For example multitasking in bw, the highest feeling was macroing their base and being at 2 places at once. Which some diamond level player are capable of. Means if you are good you will be able to be at 4 places at once.
As for forGG's success, its a playstyle the others weren't really used to, thats why he poofed through 3 differen races with ease, as they weren't really able to prepare, while their playstyle were well known. Added some underestimation and there you go. MLG Dreamhack and all those weekender tournaments where foreigners and korean meet, are a good example of this, especially naniwa who likes to march through the tournament because of his unique micro style.
So don't overreact. its just the unknown factor.
Have you even watched BW? Seriously, if you're going to comment on stuff like this you should at least be familar with both games
You did a terrible job of addressing his point by overlooking the fact that it was an example. He's essentially saying that the limitation caused by the difficult macro effected multitasking; as in the hallmark of a top BW player was the ability to macro flawlessly and be in X places at once with his multitasking. He then posits that since macro is easier in SC2, the hallmark of a good player will be that he'll have to be doing twice as much multitasking (and that easier macro will allow him to do so).
In that regard, I agree with him. This has been a long held belief of mine that
1) If you have perfect AI controlled machines controlling the action, then yes, the skill ceiling of BW is higher.
2) With human players, the skill ceiling of either game is out of reach and thus neither game is 'harder,' within the realms of what a human can attain. In other words, no person can ever be good enough at SC2 or BW to demonstrate that one is clearly harder. BW just happens to have over a decade of a headstart in development.
3) With the easier macro in SC2, more of a players mechanical ability will simply be diverted to other areas. Think of it like this. If the idea of 'skill' or mechanics were to be illustrated as 50% emphasis on micro / 50% emphasis on macro (a gross oversimplification) in BW, then SC2 may develop into more of a 65/35 split. The two games would be/will be equally taxing in two different proportions.
The premise of this point sounds correct but what you just said illustrates why the Broodwar Pros WILL dominate when/if they switch. JD, Bisu, Flash, Stork and even the top-tier but not necessarily S-Class pros (Firebathero, Hydra, Effort, Sea etc.) all have the skill to not only be fantastic mechanically (which was harder in Broodwar) but also have absolutely insane multi-task. If multi-task is actually easier in SC2 because the mechanics are easier, wouldn't this just magnify their multi-tasking ability rather than make things more equal?
The games are not equal. I'm sorry but they're not, and I'm a huge fan of SC2 myself. The new features that have been put in to SC2 make it this way. Micro in Broodwar was much harder than SC2, as was macro.
I guess we'll never have a true answer until the top pros do switch. How ForGG performs will be a good barometer I feel.
On December 07 2011 08:22 aintz wrote: fin is definitely skillful you cannot deny that but lets not get hyped up too much. players who are good at bw should be good at sc2 but you cant just say one game takes more skill than the other.
All other things aside, the AI/pathing, no-auto harvest, 12 control group limit, etc...of BW are much harder things to deal with. So all other things equal (which idk if that's even true), BW is a harder game with more skill required. How is Sc2 just as high of a skill requirement as broodwar, when it is much easier to execute as a whole.
because its easier for both people and if there aren't limitations, they can do other things. For example multitasking in bw, the highest feeling was macroing their base and being at 2 places at once. Which some diamond level player are capable of. Means if you are good you will be able to be at 4 places at once.
As for forGG's success, its a playstyle the others weren't really used to, thats why he poofed through 3 differen races with ease, as they weren't really able to prepare, while their playstyle were well known. Added some underestimation and there you go. MLG Dreamhack and all those weekender tournaments where foreigners and korean meet, are a good example of this, especially naniwa who likes to march through the tournament because of his unique micro style.
So don't overreact. its just the unknown factor.
Have you even watched BW? Seriously, if you're going to comment on stuff like this you should at least be familar with both games
You did a terrible job of addressing his point by overlooking the fact that it was an example. He's essentially saying that the limitation caused by the difficult macro effected multitasking; as in the hallmark of a top BW player was the ability to macro flawlessly and be in X places at once with his multitasking. He then posits that since macro is easier in SC2, the hallmark of a good player will be that he'll have to be doing twice as much multitasking (and that easier macro will allow him to do so).
In that regard, I agree with him. This has been a long held belief of mine that
1) If you have perfect AI controlled machines controlling the action, then yes, the skill ceiling of BW is higher.
2) With human players, the skill ceiling of either game is out of reach and thus neither game is 'harder,' within the realms of what a human can attain. In other words, no person can ever be good enough at SC2 or BW to demonstrate that one is clearly harder. BW just happens to have over a decade of a headstart in development.
3) With the easier macro in SC2, more of a players mechanical ability will simply be diverted to other areas. Think of it like this. If the idea of 'skill' or mechanics were to be illustrated as 50% emphasis on micro / 50% emphasis on macro (a gross oversimplification) in BW, then SC2 may develop into more of a 65/35 split. The two games would be/will be equally taxing in two different proportions.
This is a great post and articulates my thoughts on the issue of skill ceiling perfectly.
On December 07 2011 05:04 Senx wrote: He's been in the top of the ladder for several months and just now has had some "public" success. His play is impressive, but its not like he magicly became amazing. He has been amazing for quite some time.
He just annihilated one of the most talented Protoss prospects, a GSL Super Tournament winner, and a two time finalist and former BW Champion.
If you don't describe that as magical, please, do tell me what it is.
He beat Sage who has done very little, Polt who is quickly trending downward, and July who as Artosis has said has not been playing well. Lets not exaggerate his accomplishments.
His play has been stellar and he looks great, but magical? Come on. People throw superlatives too freely. If he moves to code "S", beats MVP, Nestea, and jakji, wins GSL - then it's magical. Making it to code 'S' isn't magical.
Magical is Kurt Gibson's game winning walk off home run, or Boise State beating Oklahoma in a bowl game, Joe Namath walking off in victory after Superbowl 3. That's magical, not making it to code 'S'.
On December 07 2011 07:59 Rikke wrote: omg OVERRATED! This guy has won like 3 games vs mediocre players, stop the hype kiddies!
MSL champion bro? He beat a golden mouse winner and super tournament champion mediocore? u ez them rofl?
Doesn't matter what he did 5years ago in a different game lolz! If he wins the next 2 GSLs we can talk again
Why do your posts in a thought provoking thread contain 0 content? Here's an idea. When you have any empirical data or any information of the games you can talk again.
Until then you could just type post's like these in a notepad document save it, and reformat your computer just so that we're sure it doesn't find its way into a thread containing years prior until this very moment of passion.
oh, shit, just have to say ._. served... rofl
it has been much more rewarding for me to do simple acts of multitasking in sc2 as opposed to BW.. rewarding as in, satisfying in terms of results. there have been a couple people who have said that it is a game of inches--- a game within a game, but honestly to me, it is like a game of millimeters at most. how many games were you allowed BIO in a T v P (BW) as opposed to how many of those games you've seen the terran sit with his fast expansion on low barracks count while he builds enough to feel comfortable moving out?
you're allowed to do so many things you didn't think were possible. you would find that out by trying things out at the highest level you could possibly go at, but luckily we also have others (sc2 pros) to do that for us : )
wow you people still dont get it? he's not as good as you think, his style is perfect aggressive. we have NOT seen his macro yet, and i bet his is awful, you think in next season people wont figure him out?? please.. just like TASTOSIS SAID: macro players are the best players, not agressive gimicky players, bye.
yeah polt and july really stomped the shit out of foreign pros at mlg
<_<
Yeah bro, I'm sure July losing to Moon and HongUn in the championship brackets at Columbus and Anaheim respectively qualify as foreign pros beating him.
This kind of reminds me of the "Bisu sucks thread." I joined in on the "YEAH HES OVER WITH," then I had to eat my words when he ruined everyone the next season's pl when he returned. Forgg is going to pwn, and then we should all get together and pm each naysayer "Told you so."
On December 07 2011 05:04 Senx wrote: He's been in the top of the ladder for several months and just now has had some "public" success. His play is impressive, but its not like he magicly became amazing. He has been amazing for quite some time.
He just annihilated one of the most talented Protoss prospects, a GSL Super Tournament winner, and a two time finalist and former BW Champion.
If you don't describe that as magical, please, do tell me what it is.
He beat Sage who has done very little, Polt who is quickly trending downward, and July who as Artosis has said has not been playing well. Lets not exaggerate his accomplishments.
His play has been stellar and he looks great, but magical? Come on. People throw superlatives too freely. If he moves to code "S", beats MVP, Nestea, and jakji, wins GSL - then it's magical. Making it to code 'S' isn't magical.
Magical is Kurt Gibson's game winning walk off home run, or Boise State beating Oklahoma in a bowl game, Joe Namath walking off in victory after Superbowl 3. That's magical, not making it to code 'S'.
To put it in perspective, at Orlando Hongun "annihilated one of the most talented Protoss prospects, a GSL Open finalist and a two time finalist and former BW Champion. " I don't think I've ever heard anyone refer to Hongun as magical.
On December 07 2011 09:54 DarkGo wrote: wow you people still dont get it? he's not as good as you think, his style is perfect aggressive. we have NOT seen his macro yet, and i bet his is awful, you think in next season people wont figure him out?? please.. just like TASTOSIS SAID: macro players are the best players, not agressive gimicky players, bye.
he is better than how i thought he was, or would be by this point, and he is as good as many people think he is. i don't think his style though, is as simple as you describe, even though i'm not exactly a fan of this player yet. if tastosis told you that a mule is never worth sacrificing, you would take it to your grave then?
On December 07 2011 05:04 Senx wrote: He's been in the top of the ladder for several months and just now has had some "public" success. His play is impressive, but its not like he magicly became amazing. He has been amazing for quite some time.
He just annihilated one of the most talented Protoss prospects, a GSL Super Tournament winner, and a two time finalist and former BW Champion.
If you don't describe that as magical, please, do tell me what it is.
He beat Sage who has done very little, Polt who is quickly trending downward, and July who as Artosis has said has not been playing well. Lets not exaggerate his accomplishments.
His play has been stellar and he looks great, but magical? Come on. People throw superlatives too freely. If he moves to code "S", beats MVP, Nestea, and jakji, wins GSL - then it's magical. Making it to code 'S' isn't magical.
Magical is Kurt Gibson's game winning walk off home run, or Boise State beating Oklahoma in a bowl game, Joe Namath walking off in victory after Superbowl 3. That's magical, not making it to code 'S'.
I agree. It's impressive, but we really need to see more. He certainly has the capability to be one of the best, but there are just so many talented players in code a/s that are rising up as well.
On December 07 2011 09:54 DarkGo wrote: wow you people still dont get it? he's not as good as you think, his style is perfect aggressive. we have NOT seen his macro yet, and i bet his is awful, you think in next season people wont figure him out?? please.. just like TASTOSIS SAID: macro players are the best players, not agressive gimicky players, bye.
Jesus christ can you idiots watch the games before you post. In g2 vs Sage he was constantly up in supply and had lower mineral/gas rates the entire game, even well being harassed in two different spots. He's shown this is all of the others games he's played too.
People like you piss me off because you think aggression is gimmicky. Honestly. Wish I could curse more at you but I'm trying no tto get banned
Happy for ForGG to make it to code S (you chose Fin as an id, really?), his play was amazing verse July in that series. The day Bisu and/or Jangbi switches I will squeeeeeeeeee so hard
Too early to tell. He needs to get matched up vs one of the big names and now when he got Code S I hope we can see him vs MVP, MC, Nestea, Leenock or anyone of that caliber
On December 07 2011 09:54 DarkGo wrote: wow you people still dont get it? he's not as good as you think, his style is perfect aggressive. we have NOT seen his macro yet, and i bet his is awful, you think in next season people wont figure him out?? please.. just like TASTOSIS SAID: macro players are the best players, not agressive gimicky players, bye.
Doubting the macro/multitasking capabilities of a bw a-team player hahaha obvious troll is obvious. He's not gimmicky, he's aggressive. That's how the game is supposed to be played. Harassment continuously throughout the game on multiple fronts, while expanding and macroing up a main force that goes in for the kill. I have yet to see this guy 1 base yet. Every game he plays he expands behind his aggression you know why? because that's how the game is meant to be played.
On December 07 2011 10:06 Liquid`Jinro wrote: /wrists
These threads are so absurd.
True, lets put it this way!
If Fin was a nonamer, Would people still say that his skill is impressive and that he is one of the best terrans?
Yes...? If a no name player stomped his way to Code S with a series of 2-0 wins over the likes of Polt and July you bet your ass that TL would be blowing up with talk of the next great bonjwa.
And honestly, did anyone really expect otherwise? He is obviously a tier above most of the "pro" gamers out there currently.
On December 07 2011 10:06 Liquid`Jinro wrote: /wrists
These threads are so absurd.
True, lets put it this way!
If Fin was a nonamer, Would people still say that his skill is impressive and that he is one of the best terrans?
Yes...? If a no name player stomped his way to Code S with a series of 2-0 wins over the likes of Polt and July you bet your ass that TL would be blowing up with talk of the next great bonjwa.
And honestly, did anyone really expect otherwise? He is obviously a tier above most of the "pro" gamers out there currently.
Should not have said no-namer but lets say that TSL_Heart did what ForGG did. Would we still see threads about how amazing he is? Prob, but not as much as it is now. "He's the next bonjwa, bla bla". But now ForGG player BW and was fairly successful in it and cause of that people hype his game up so so much
On December 07 2011 10:06 Liquid`Jinro wrote: /wrists
These threads are so absurd.
True, lets put it this way!
If Fin was a nonamer, Would people still say that his skill is impressive and that he is one of the best terrans?
Yes...? If a no name player stomped his way to Code S with a series of 2-0 wins over the likes of Polt and July you bet your ass that TL would be blowing up with talk of the next great bonjwa.
This...although "Bonjwa" and "SC2" still don't register as being compatible terms in my brain.
ForGG is the real shit, and having that sort of mechanical skill coming over is VERY good for SC2. It's incredible how you see some things in GSL games like Terrans leaving depots down, or Zergs detonating the wrong banelings or missing landmines entirely, and these guys are currently considered among the best in the world.
On December 07 2011 10:10 Liquid`Jinro wrote: He's fuckin great but all these 'best micro ever', 'revolutionary style' comments are only there because of his heritage.
What did you think of his games jinro? Most of us lack the understanding of a pro gamer .
On December 07 2011 10:10 Liquid`Jinro wrote: He's fuckin great but all these 'best micro ever', 'revolutionary style' comments are only there because of his heritage.
What did you think of his games jinro? Most of us lack the understanding of a pro gamer .
Far be it from me to speak for Jinro, but I think most of what he wants to say about fOrGG is right there in his comment: That fOrGG is sick good, but that most of the hype surrounding him has to do more with the fact that he's the biggest profile name to switch from BW than it has to do with his actual skill.
On December 07 2011 10:10 Liquid`Jinro wrote: He's fuckin great but all these 'best micro ever', 'revolutionary style' comments are only there because of his heritage.
This might be true but, to be fair, Sage was a nonamer that was called "most inteligent player ever" and "revolutionary style" before, and that was after 3 gstl games. People get hyped up when they see cool new things in pro SC2 that show the game's pontential (like Sage's constant scouting and mind games, or MKP micro against baneling, or, currently, forGG clean agressivenes), it's not necessarily because of heritage.
Why was this thread not closed immediately?!? It ruined the results fo the games and has no spoilers. I literally waited in agony for this match up just to have it spoiled from the title.
On December 07 2011 04:55 Grend wrote: Can't we just call him ForGG? Fin is just confusing :-)
I agree. Even when I see the brackets and see Fin, I think ForGG. He should change his name back :D. I bet he'll be picked in the last round of selections for code S next season.
On December 07 2011 10:10 Liquid`Jinro wrote: He's fuckin great but all these 'best micro ever', 'revolutionary style' comments are only there because of his heritage.
This might be true but, to be fair, Sage was a nonamer that was called "most inteligent player ever" and "revolutionary style" before, and that was after 3 gstl games. People get hyped up when they see cool new things in pro SC2 that show the game's pontential (like Sage's constant scouting and mind games, or MKP micro against baneling, or, currently, forGG clean agressivenes), it's not necessarily because of heritage.
Indeed. I think Forgg merely gets more attention because he was a well known BW pro, and as a result we see more people overhyping him. As far as people overhyping certain progamers is concerned, we see it for all sorts of players, not just popular BW pros.
On December 07 2011 10:10 Liquid`Jinro wrote: He's fuckin great but all these 'best micro ever', 'revolutionary style' comments are only there because of his heritage.
This might be true but, to be fair, Sage was a nonamer that was called "most inteligent player ever" and "revolutionary style" before, and that was after 3 gstl games. People get hyped up when they see cool new things in pro SC2 that show the game's pontential (like Sage's constant scouting and mind games, or MKP micro against baneling, or, currently, forGG clean agressivenes), it's not necessarily because of heritage.
Indeed. I think Forgg merely gets more attention because he was a well known BW pro, and as a result we see more people overhyping him. As far as people overhyping certain progamers is concerned, we see it for all sorts of players, not just popular BW pros.
I don't think anyone said that Sage would rip through Code S and become champion over the course of a month.
DRG did come close to this level of hype though. He even called himself an "overhyped bubble" on his Twitter.
All these hype in SC2 is so annoying! After PuMa won NASL => Best Player in the World; Stephano won IPL => Best Player in the World; HuK won MLG => Best Player in the World; Leenock won MLG => Best Player in the World. SC2 is so volatile, judging Playerskill on 3 games is just stupid! ForGG looks solid say he is "The Best" is the most retarded thing I ever heared! If he beats NesTea and MVP in a BO3 next GSL, we can talk again if he is "The Best"
On December 07 2011 10:10 Liquid`Jinro wrote: He's fuckin great but all these 'best micro ever', 'revolutionary style' comments are only there because of his heritage.
You're just jealous because he was the original heir to the gorilla terran title
Mr. Fin I think is the man who will finally break Terran.
The thing about the Terran army is that they have a much higher skill ceiling than the other two races.
There isn't much more that can be done with the Protoss or Zerg armies that hasn't been thought of and executed already.
Zerg could theoretically engage in a slightly more spread manner, but when it comes to the actually fighting, they WANT everything to be clumped up.
Protoss likes tight death balls, the hardest micro is placing good force fields and keeping your zealots in front, all of this was figured out last year.
Terran, on the other hand, has several units that increase effectiveness exponentially with the amount of micro applied. Marines, Marauders, Banshees, Vikings, Hellions, and Reapers ALL get significantly better due to the fact that they can effectively deal 100% of their DPS while moving.
I look forward to the domination of Fin, and the soon-to-come nerf to Terran micro.
The next few months of GSL will be quite entertaining with him around
There is no Best player in the world. Okay? Got it? Good. People can label them whatever they want, but it doesn't make them right.
Same with the tags. ForGG might try to sell the new nickname Fin, but it doesn't mean anything. People will call him whatever the heck they want. You remember him as ForGG. I remember him as ForGG thus I'm going to continue calling him ForGG because that is who he is to me. Does it really matter? Not really.
Players can keep calling themselves all the corny nicknames in the world. Doesn't mean the new ones will stick at all.
On December 07 2011 10:53 Jermstuddog wrote: Mr. Fin I think is the man who will finally break Terran.
The thing about the Terran army is that they have a much higher skill ceiling than the other two races.
There isn't much more that can be done with the Protoss or Zerg armies that hasn't been thought of and executed already.
Zerg could theoretically engage in a slightly more spread manner, but when it comes to the actually fighting, they WANT everything to be clumped up.
Protoss likes tight death balls, the hardest micro is placing good force fields and keeping your zealots in front, but Terran has several units that increase effectiveness exponentially with the amount of micro applied.
Marines, Marauders, Banshees, Vikings, Hellions, and Reapers ALL get significantly better due to the fact that they can effectively deal 100% of their DPS while moving.
....mass terran qq right there
on topic though, it makes me as an ex-BW player ridiculously happy to see a true top-level BW pro make such an impact so quickly. I wouldn't go so far as to say he's the best in the world in such a short time, but he did show a lot of potential in his games
On December 07 2011 10:10 Liquid`Jinro wrote: He's fuckin great but all these 'best micro ever', 'revolutionary style' comments are only there because of his heritage.
This might be true but, to be fair, Sage was a nonamer that was called "most inteligent player ever" and "revolutionary style" before, and that was after 3 gstl games. People get hyped up when they see cool new things in pro SC2 that show the game's pontential (like Sage's constant scouting and mind games, or MKP micro against baneling, or, currently, forGG clean agressivenes), it's not necessarily because of heritage.
Indeed. I think Forgg merely gets more attention because he was a well known BW pro, and as a result we see more people overhyping him. As far as people overhyping certain progamers is concerned, we see it for all sorts of players, not just popular BW pros.
I don't think anyone said that Sage would rip through Code S and become champion over the course of a month.
DRG did come close to this level of hype though. He even called himself an "overhyped bubble" on his Twitter.
And has Sage shown such dominating games against worthy opponents in his first ever GSL in the same way that Forgg did? Even if Forgg is being overhyped, you have to acknowledge that his actual performance, and not just his BW heritage, has a lot to do with why he's being hyped so much.
Moreover, I don't see why Forgg's legacy should not be a factor when hyping him. It's one thing when an otherwise mediocre or unknown player shows a few spectacular games, and it's a completely different thing when a former BW A-teamer who won an MSL by beating Jaedong in a Bo5 switches over to SC2 and absolutely dominates in every single game he's played so far in his first ever GSL
Well what do you expect ? I mean he is the only dude who has played on TOP level WON a starleague who has switched games. I mean yes we have all the dudes like MFing Nada,Boxer,July but lets face it they are oldies they are not on their prime. ForGG skills and the habits from his BW days didn't left him so he is showing them now and if he is practicing like a BW pro well expect him to be lonely on the top for a long time. Don't translate this wrong I'm not saying omfg he is from BW his better I'm saying his training,habits,skills and mindset are still in that ruthless state where he thinks : OMG i'm 2nd terran in KT htf i'm gonna beat Flash for 1st spot. You can say MVP was bwer too he beat Flash, Nestea also and Puzzle was 1st in kespa draft but those guys were never on the level ForGG was he had to play TV matches and devote his life to practice (he played with Flash *duh*) Its normal that he is on another level. Like some of you guys said he is using tactics and basic stuff but those things are perfected because it doesn't matter what strategy you play the concepts are the same.
Atleast this is what i think and wtf are those comments about imbaness. You guys should stop this srsly...
On December 07 2011 10:54 Hall0wed wrote: ForGG has been playing hardcore for 10+ months, nearly as much as most other players. That is why he is good.
On December 07 2011 10:10 Liquid`Jinro wrote: He's fuckin great but all these 'best micro ever', 'revolutionary style' comments are only there because of his heritage.
This might be true but, to be fair, Sage was a nonamer that was called "most inteligent player ever" and "revolutionary style" before, and that was after 3 gstl games. People get hyped up when they see cool new things in pro SC2 that show the game's pontential (like Sage's constant scouting and mind games, or MKP micro against baneling, or, currently, forGG clean agressivenes), it's not necessarily because of heritage.
Indeed. I think Forgg merely gets more attention because he was a well known BW pro, and as a result we see more people overhyping him. As far as people overhyping certain progamers is concerned, we see it for all sorts of players, not just popular BW pros.
I don't think anyone said that Sage would rip through Code S and become champion over the course of a month.
DRG did come close to this level of hype though. He even called himself an "overhyped bubble" on his Twitter.
And has Sage shown such dominating games against worthy opponents in his first ever GSL in the same way that Forgg did? Even if Forgg is being overhyped, you have to acknowledge that his actual performance, and not just his BW heritage, has a lot to do with why he's being hyped so much.
Moreover, I don't see why Forgg's legacy should not be a factor when hyping him. It's one thing when an otherwise mediocre or unknown player shows a few spectacular games, and it's a completely different thing when a former BW A-teamer who won an MSL by beating Jaedong in a Bo5 switches over to SC2 and absolutely dominates in every single game he's played so far in his first ever GSL
No, Sage didn't show dominating play. But Sage was also playing in the GSL when Protoss winrates were figuratively scraping the bottom of the fish barrel, so that's not too surprising. People hyped him up -- and every other Protoss as well (see: HerO, JYP, Creator, TAILS, etc.) -- because they wanted a new Protoss hero. The situation was just that bad.
Sure, fOrGG's good, but people are hyping him up like he's the new coming of Jesus Christ, which I'm not convinced he is. He's talented, he's good, but by BW standards today, he's pretty mediocre. Especially when you can get into a legitimate argument about whether or not fOrGG should be considered the best BW player to make the switch compared to MVP. (e.g. You can say that fOrGG was clearly on a downward trend when he swapped, while MVP on an upward one and hitting his stride.) I mean, is fOrGG performing better than a carpal-tunnel-stricken MVP? Hard to say until we actually see him play against top-caliber vT opponents (i.e. MVP, MC -- whose PvT is supposedly unbeatable in practice nowadays -- Leenock). Gosh, we all saw what happened to DRG's hype after a while.
On December 07 2011 10:54 Hall0wed wrote: ForGG has been playing hardcore for 10+ months, nearly as much as most other players. That is why he is good.
source on that?
He's referring to the fact that he's clearly been hardcore laddering his multiple accounts (I think he has four now?) to the top of the KR ladder every season over the past several months. He didn't just suddenly switch when he joined oGs.
On December 07 2011 10:10 Liquid`Jinro wrote: He's fuckin great but all these 'best micro ever', 'revolutionary style' comments are only there because of his heritage.
I would disagree with that seeing as the fact that threads like these arise all of the time regardless of their heritage, or previous accomplishments. Artosis stated Alicia was the best protoss he had ever seen. Later he said Sage is the one of the best players in the world. Fan Clubs pop up, as well as admiration blogs because of statements casters make or because of a person's own volition.
DRG played well for a GSTL season yet is still ranked 4th on liquipedia and top 10 on even higher on Khaldors website. Who as far as I have witnessed qualified for Code A once out 4 attempts and was knocked out in the ro32. Then he continues to get seeded into Code S because of MLG's ludicrous format.
Most of the posts in this thread are over hyped, which doesn't seem to vary much from any other thread.
The only revolutionary statement being conveyed is towards Korean Brood War players and certainly paints a picture for the 'Elephant In the Room' thread.
And since when did this sites regular posters in the SC2 section start caring about Brood War. "It's a completely different game, just because you're good at one doesn't mean you'll good good at the other".
We should have a Brood War awareness month that is a mandatory read.
I haven't seen this said yet, but I have no doubt ForGG sat down and looked at each player's builds for the maps they play on and specifically looked for weak points and did his own aggressive builds to dominate them. Polt and July didn't even stand a chance because they didn't get out of the early game from what I saw and ForGG would get a command center behind it so they weren't going to have a chance. His micro was also very very good, which gave him the extra edge he needed to get that advantage.
We're going to see a lot of early game pressure out of terran that just breaks weak builds like hatch first and 1 gate/1rax expands. The maps are still too small for early pressure builds to be ineffective.
On December 07 2011 10:53 Jermstuddog wrote: Mr. Fin I think is the man who will finally break Terran.
The thing about the Terran army is that they have a much higher skill ceiling than the other two races.
There isn't much more that can be done with the Protoss or Zerg armies that hasn't been thought of and executed already.
Zerg could theoretically engage in a slightly more spread manner, but when it comes to the actually fighting, they WANT everything to be clumped up.
Protoss likes tight death balls, the hardest micro is placing good force fields and keeping your zealots in front, but Terran has several units that increase effectiveness exponentially with the amount of micro applied.
Marines, Marauders, Banshees, Vikings, Hellions, and Reapers ALL get significantly better due to the fact that they can effectively deal 100% of their DPS while moving.
....mass terran qq right there
on topic though, it makes me as an ex-BW player ridiculously happy to see a true top-level BW pro make such an impact so quickly. I wouldn't go so far as to say he's the best in the world in such a short time, but he did show a lot of potential in his games
They don't actually get better at attacking while moving. If you're wondering that's not an upgrade or anything. It just requires a little bit of fines.
I'm glad you wrote the guidelines for how to play Zerg and Protoss, and don't forget about that ceiling you installled. Check if blizzard is hiring, just send them this post as your resume and I'm quite sure you will be in there with Browder making sure that Mr. Fin doesn't break Terran. And see if you can get Dustin to put some scaffolding up until you can raise the Zerg Protoss ceiling.
On December 07 2011 10:54 Hall0wed wrote: ForGG has been playing hardcore for 10+ months, nearly as much as most other players. That is why he is good.
source on that?
He has been playing on multiple accounts and placing top GM for a long time. The number of games on all his accounts are even more than regular pro players'. Joining oGs and living in the team house environment help him a lot with strategies and clean up his plays. That's why he's becoming a good player.
On December 07 2011 10:54 StarStruck wrote: There is no Best player in the world. Okay? Got it? Good. People can label them whatever they want, but it doesn't make them right.
Same with the tags. ForGG might try to sell the new nickname Fin, but it doesn't mean anything. People will call him whatever the heck they want. You remember him as ForGG. I remember him as ForGG thus I'm going to continue calling him ForGG because that is who he is to me. Does it really matter? Not really.
Players can keep calling themselves all the corny nicknames in the world. Doesn't mean the new ones will stick at all.
Keep in mind he was playing under the ID Raptor at the highest levels of play for a year now, the argument that all BW players who switch over will be like that or better immediately is quite a foolish assumption, as they would not have the level of experience or in game knowledge that ForGG has developed over more than a year now. I love BW as much as the next guy on TL, but dont get so hyped or biased. That having been said, God damn but he is good.
On December 07 2011 11:39 Manex wrote: Keep in mind he was playing under the ID Raptor at the highest levels of play for a year now, the argument that all BW players who switch over will be like that or better immediately is quite a foolish assumption, as they would not have the level of experience or in game knowledge that ForGG has developed over more than a year now. I love BW as much as the next guy on TL, but dont get so hyped or biased. That having been said, God damn but he is good.
Honestly no one is arguing that they would insta rape everything. But it's naive to say that they won't become the top level of play.
On December 07 2011 10:54 StarStruck wrote: There is no Best player in the world. Okay? Got it? Good. People can label them whatever they want, but it doesn't make them right.
Same with the tags. ForGG might try to sell the new nickname Fin, but it doesn't mean anything. People will call him whatever the heck they want. You remember him as ForGG. I remember him as ForGG thus I'm going to continue calling him ForGG because that is who he is to me. Does it really matter? Not really.
Players can keep calling themselves all the corny nicknames in the world. Doesn't mean the new ones will stick at all.
flash. you lose
I wouldn't even call him the best at BW at the moment. Have you been watching PL? So far he hasn't faced anyone noteworthy and others could have taken advantage of him in the same position. So no. Nice try though. There are several players who are doing very well at the moment.
On December 07 2011 10:54 Hall0wed wrote: ForGG has been playing hardcore for 10+ months, nearly as much as most other players. That is why he is good.
source on that?
He has been playing on multiple accounts and placing top GM for a long time. The number of games on all his accounts are even more than regular pro players'. Joining oGs and living in the team house environment help him a lot with strategies and clean up his plays. That's why he's becoming a good player.
There's a valid reason why he's been laddering so much. He didn't join oGs until very recently. ;/
On December 07 2011 11:39 Manex wrote: Keep in mind he was playing under the ID Raptor at the highest levels of play for a year now, the argument that all BW players who switch over will be like that or better immediately is quite a foolish assumption, as they would not have the level of experience or in game knowledge that ForGG has developed over more than a year now. I love BW as much as the next guy on TL, but dont get so hyped or biased. That having been said, God damn but he is good.
Honestly no one is arguing that they would insta rape everything. But it's naive to say that they won't become the top level of play.
He has been playing much less than the guys who are the current top tier players. There is no doubt that ForGG's rise to skill has been significantly faster than pretty much anyone else in the game.
The hyperboles from both sides have to stop. And please don't try to argue MvP is the better player from BW to switch over than ForGG, because ForGG was part of the regular KT lineup whereas MvP only played occasionally - you do well in in-house rankings, you get to play, it's that simple. This is not even considering his BoX starleague win of Jeadong or other achievements, which dwarf the 1 game win over Flash and rare shallow runs into starleagues of MvP. I can give you that MvP was probably improving faster simply because MvP is younger, but at their respective times of switching over, ForGG was undoubtedly the better player. Simply, when he switched, most people gave a fuck. When MvP did, most people gave much less of a fuck.
Also, no one is saying he is the 2nd coming of the Christ, but given the circumstances, in that he is the BEST BW pro to have switched over so far, who had a PERFECT Code A run over good opponents, who demonstrated crisp and dominating game play, this side of the crowd, the ForGG believers if you will, are saying that:
"Although the sample size is small, given the (aforementioned) circumstances it is not unreasonable to believe that ForGG will be highly successful in the SC2 scene in the sense that he will be among the best of the best, of the best, excelling or at least equaling the skills of current SC2 champions, regularly placing top positions in the GSL. His BW training and experience has given him a very good RTS background advantage and highly efficient practice regime, which elevate him to a class above previously overhyped players such as DRG."
On December 07 2011 05:14 Zinjil wrote: His name change away from ForGG seems to have meant something more to fin, and he is effectively a brand new player with the skillset and knowledge of a champion already inside of him, but the drive and ambition of a newly-recruited no-name.
You may be right about about the drive and ambition, but he hasn't used the handle fOrGG in game since well before he retired from bw.
I really think that more than inherently superior skill, bw players will bring an inherently superior work ethic, which will ultimately grant them success.
I will say that his smirk was classic. Confidence is one of the most important skills to have in this game, and this dude obviously has that in spades.
6 GSL games is not nearly enough for us to be saying Fin will win a GSL title soon. Simply put Fin had a relatively easy path to Code S this season. I'll reserve judgment until he consistently does well against players who are currently performing well.
This sort of goes along with the trend of people jumping on the bandwagon of whoever won the latest tournament. I mean really, the number of people calling Hero the best protoss in the world is a little absurd considering his GSL performances. Nerchio was the best foreigner zerg after IPL2, Stephano was the best after IPL3, Leenock was the best zerg after MLG Providence, etc.
On December 07 2011 11:52 Doodsmack wrote: 6 GSL games is not nearly enough for us to be saying Fin will win a GSL title soon. Simply put Fin had a relatively easy path to Code S this season. I'll reserve judgment until he consistently does well against players who are currently performing well.
I don't think Sage, Polt, or July is a "relatively easy path", I agree with you about reserving judgment for later with regards to winning a GSL but it's clear to me he has at least some potential to do well in Code S, especially with how easily he has defeated his opponents.
On December 07 2011 11:39 Manex wrote: Keep in mind he was playing under the ID Raptor at the highest levels of play for a year now, the argument that all BW players who switch over will be like that or better immediately is quite a foolish assumption, as they would not have the level of experience or in game knowledge that ForGG has developed over more than a year now. I love BW as much as the next guy on TL, but dont get so hyped or biased. That having been said, God damn but he is good.
Honestly no one is arguing that they would insta rape everything. But it's naive to say that they won't become the top level of play.
He has been playing much less than the guys who are the current top tier players. There is no doubt that ForGG's rise to skill has been significantly faster than pretty much anyone else in the game.
I think you're somewhat incorrect in that statement, when HuK revealed he knew who he was on ladder, which had to have been something like a year ago, or at least 10 months, (HuK as i recall proceeding to get roflstomped) the account Fin was playing on, Raptor, had logged far more games than almost any sc2 pro had at that time, and ive heard rumors of Fin playing on multiple accounts. While i would wager that BW pros have a better head start than other players, it takes a lot of time of time and practice to become good, consider now that we have two former BW A teamers playing high level SC2, but getting to where they are now required them playing since around the beginning. I've seen streamers face Stork on KR Ladder, and while he's not bad, there is no way hed qualify for code A, and why? because hes new to the game, and like anyone else, would require a long time to get to the top.
On December 07 2011 11:52 Doodsmack wrote: 6 GSL games is not nearly enough for us to be saying Fin will win a GSL title soon. Simply put Fin had a relatively easy path to Code S this season. I'll reserve judgment until he consistently does well against players who are currently performing well.
This sort of goes along with the trend of people jumping on the bandwagon of whoever won the latest tournament. I mean really, the number of people calling Hero the best protoss in the world is a little absurd considering his GSL performances. Nerchio was the best foreigner zerg after IPL2, Stephano was the best after IPL3, Leenock was the best zerg after MLG Providence, etc.
To be fair though, I kind of consider Leenock to be the best Z in the game right now based on what I've seen (which is not nearly enough). And Hero is really good. Don't know if I would call him the best Toss right now, but he's definitely up there... don't know who else to put. Huk looked very beatable (lol @ me calling Huk beatable...) at NASL.
edit:
Maybe MC but I haven't seen any of his recent games, and what I've heard is that his play has suffered some setbacks. Don't know if that's true or not.
On December 07 2011 05:14 Zinjil wrote: His name change away from ForGG seems to have meant something more to fin, and he is effectively a brand new player with the skillset and knowledge of a champion already inside of him, but the drive and ambition of a newly-recruited no-name.
You may be right about about the drive and ambition, but he hasn't used the handle fOrGG in game since well before he retired from bw.
I really think that more than inherently superior skill, bw players will bring an inherently superior work ethic, which will ultimately grant them success.
The work ethic thing is absolutely true, but so far it seems like only a few players really have the drive to get to the same level a second time. I kind of foresee pride being the biggest hurdle to success for some huge players, as the hill of sc2's skill level might not be as large as bw's mountain, but it is still rocky and takes time to climb.
On December 07 2011 11:52 Doodsmack wrote: 6 GSL games is not nearly enough for us to be saying Fin will win a GSL title soon. Simply put Fin had a relatively easy path to Code S this season. I'll reserve judgment until he consistently does well against players who are currently performing well.
This sort of goes along with the trend of people jumping on the bandwagon of whoever won the latest tournament. I mean really, the number of people calling Hero the best protoss in the world is a little absurd considering his GSL performances. Nerchio was the best foreigner zerg after IPL2, Stephano was the best after IPL3, Leenock was the best zerg after MLG Providence, etc.
Shutting out Sage, Polt, and July is not an "easy" path. They're not top tier korean pros (MVP, Nestea) but they are the caliber of players he will need to be able to beat regularly to be a contender in Code S. Dominating all of them in spectacular fashion makes him look pretty good.
Until he's pitted against the titans, however, we don't know how far he'll get.
On December 07 2011 11:52 Doodsmack wrote: 6 GSL games is not nearly enough for us to be saying Fin will win a GSL title soon. Simply put Fin had a relatively easy path to Code S this season. I'll reserve judgment until he consistently does well against players who are currently performing well.
This sort of goes along with the trend of people jumping on the bandwagon of whoever won the latest tournament. I mean really, the number of people calling Hero the best protoss in the world is a little absurd considering his GSL performances. Nerchio was the best foreigner zerg after IPL2, Stephano was the best after IPL3, Leenock was the best zerg after MLG Providence, etc.
Yup, I noticed you left out PuMa, HM! I wonder why. o;
In either case lets wait and see what happens. I'm sure FOrGG will have no problems being a mainstay in code S.
meh, i think this sort of hype is unnecessary and will just disappoint people when he stumbles a bit. the reason people are falling to forGG is because nobody knows his style yet. he has shown macro games in his game vs sage though.
On December 07 2011 11:52 Doodsmack wrote: 6 GSL games is not nearly enough for us to be saying Fin will win a GSL title soon. Simply put Fin had a relatively easy path to Code S this season. I'll reserve judgment until he consistently does well against players who are currently performing well.
I don't think Sage, Polt, or July is a "relatively easy path", I agree with you about reserving judgment for later with regards to winning a GSL but it's clear to me he has at least some potential to do well in Code S, especially with how easily he has defeated his opponents.
I feel that it is worth pointing out that a big part to GSL is watching previous games by the person you're palying against and working out the best strategy. ForGG has access to a good bank of replays of his oppoents styles due to the amount of time they have been in GSL but they don't have the same for him.
On December 07 2011 10:54 StarStruck wrote: There is no Best player in the world. Okay? Got it? Good. People can label them whatever they want, but it doesn't make them right.
Same with the tags. ForGG might try to sell the new nickname Fin, but it doesn't mean anything. People will call him whatever the heck they want. You remember him as ForGG. I remember him as ForGG thus I'm going to continue calling him ForGG because that is who he is to me. Does it really matter? Not really.
Players can keep calling themselves all the corny nicknames in the world. Doesn't mean the new ones will stick at all.
flash. you lose
I wouldn't even call him the best at BW at the moment. Have you been watching PL? So far he hasn't faced anyone noteworthy and others could have taken advantage of him in the same position. So no. Nice try though. There are several players who are doing very well at the moment.
On December 07 2011 10:54 Hall0wed wrote: ForGG has been playing hardcore for 10+ months, nearly as much as most other players. That is why he is good.
source on that?
He has been playing on multiple accounts and placing top GM for a long time. The number of games on all his accounts are even more than regular pro players'. Joining oGs and living in the team house environment help him a lot with strategies and clean up his plays. That's why he's becoming a good player.
There's a valid reason why he's been laddering so much. He didn't join oGs until very recently. ;/
I will continue to call him Fin because that is the new name he has chosen and hence I respect that choice.
His micro/multitasking has been shown to be top-tier already. I cannot say that he will dominate Code S but for certain he deserves to be Code S and will likely stay there for some time.
On December 07 2011 10:54 StarStruck wrote: There is no Best player in the world. Okay? Got it? Good. People can label them whatever they want, but it doesn't make them right.
Same with the tags. ForGG might try to sell the new nickname Fin, but it doesn't mean anything. People will call him whatever the heck they want. You remember him as ForGG. I remember him as ForGG thus I'm going to continue calling him ForGG because that is who he is to me. Does it really matter? Not really.
Players can keep calling themselves all the corny nicknames in the world. Doesn't mean the new ones will stick at all.
flash. you lose
I wouldn't even call him the best at BW at the moment. Have you been watching PL? So far he hasn't faced anyone noteworthy and others could have taken advantage of him in the same position. So no. Nice try though. There are several players who are doing very well at the moment.
On December 07 2011 11:31 canikizu wrote:
On December 07 2011 11:15 nitdkim wrote:
On December 07 2011 10:54 Hall0wed wrote: ForGG has been playing hardcore for 10+ months, nearly as much as most other players. That is why he is good.
source on that?
He has been playing on multiple accounts and placing top GM for a long time. The number of games on all his accounts are even more than regular pro players'. Joining oGs and living in the team house environment help him a lot with strategies and clean up his plays. That's why he's becoming a good player.
There's a valid reason why he's been laddering so much. He didn't join oGs until very recently. ;/
You know nothing about BW. Just stop.
Thank you for almost making me spit out my water.
Question have you been watching PL recently? Are you aware that Flash just had surgery? Have you seen Effort and JangBi dominate last week?
Didn't think so. Before you attempt to try and come at me bro do your research. I was there for every match and I'm all up in those LR biznatches.
There are plenty of players who can take out a vulnerable Flash right now. That's only two of them. Happy hunting!
On December 07 2011 10:54 StarStruck wrote: There is no Best player in the world. Okay? Got it? Good. People can label them whatever they want, but it doesn't make them right.
Same with the tags. ForGG might try to sell the new nickname Fin, but it doesn't mean anything. People will call him whatever the heck they want. You remember him as ForGG. I remember him as ForGG thus I'm going to continue calling him ForGG because that is who he is to me. Does it really matter? Not really.
Players can keep calling themselves all the corny nicknames in the world. Doesn't mean the new ones will stick at all.
flash. you lose
I wouldn't even call him the best at BW at the moment. Have you been watching PL? So far he hasn't faced anyone noteworthy and others could have taken advantage of him in the same position. So no. Nice try though. There are several players who are doing very well at the moment.
On December 07 2011 10:54 Hall0wed wrote: ForGG has been playing hardcore for 10+ months, nearly as much as most other players. That is why he is good.
source on that?
He has been playing on multiple accounts and placing top GM for a long time. The number of games on all his accounts are even more than regular pro players'. Joining oGs and living in the team house environment help him a lot with strategies and clean up his plays. That's why he's becoming a good player.
There's a valid reason why he's been laddering so much. He didn't join oGs until very recently. ;/
I don't mean to derail the thread here but...Flash not the best at bw at the moment? Get real
On December 07 2011 05:14 Zinjil wrote: His name change away from ForGG seems to have meant something more to fin, and he is effectively a brand new player with the skillset and knowledge of a champion already inside of him, but the drive and ambition of a newly-recruited no-name.
You may be right about about the drive and ambition, but he hasn't used the handle fOrGG in game since well before he retired from bw.
I really think that more than inherently superior skill, bw players will bring an inherently superior work ethic, which will ultimately grant them success.
The work ethic thing is absolutely true, but so far it seems like only a few players really have the drive to get to the same level a second time. I kind of foresee pride being the biggest hurdle to success for some huge players, as the hill of sc2's skill level might not be as large as bw's mountain, but it is still rocky and takes time to climb.
I always thought that was the x-factor for MVP too. The fact that he could play many different styles well, tailor strategies to maps (the proxy rx on Antiga knowing close spawns were disabled) and players (his mass ghost timing against July knowing he favored late game Ultras).
Other players are starting to catch up as well, like the way MMA was able to blind-side MVP in GSL September. Jjakji also showed an insane amount of preparation against Leenock with his early overlord snipes, creep denial, well-timed all-ins, ect.
If you guys don't watch PL or participate actively in the community then stop right now before you even try to come at me.
I just answered the guys question.
There are plenty of guys who can take out a vulnerable Flash.
If you haven't been watching the games or participating in the ongoing discussions you would know that Flash may very well not be the top guy anymore, k thx.
On December 07 2011 10:54 StarStruck wrote: There is no Best player in the world. Okay? Got it? Good. People can label them whatever they want, but it doesn't make them right.
Same with the tags. ForGG might try to sell the new nickname Fin, but it doesn't mean anything. People will call him whatever the heck they want. You remember him as ForGG. I remember him as ForGG thus I'm going to continue calling him ForGG because that is who he is to me. Does it really matter? Not really.
Players can keep calling themselves all the corny nicknames in the world. Doesn't mean the new ones will stick at all.
flash. you lose
I wouldn't even call him the best at BW at the moment. Have you been watching PL? So far he hasn't faced anyone noteworthy and others could have taken advantage of him in the same position. So no. Nice try though. There are several players who are doing very well at the moment.
My understanding of it is that your original point was that there doesn't exist a 'best player in the world', and that it's just people using labels and whatnot rather than someone actually objectively being the best in the world. If that was your point, then oneofthem's reply still stands. Even if Flash is not the best right now, he was indisputably the best in the world for some time, which would contradict your point as I understand it above.
If, however, you meant to say there there is no 'best' player in the world right now, then I take back what I said above. But that begs the question why the hell are you proclaiming in a SC2 thread that there is no 'best' BW player? Of course, maybe you were actually talking about there being no best SC2 player right now. But then that would beg the question why you replied to oneofthem with a discussion of the merits of Flash's skill, rather than simply saying you weren't talking about BW. And all this leads me to think you meant what I was talking about in the first paragraph, and therefore you were actually outplayed. Nice try though.
Anyway, my personal opinion: the question who is the best in the world isn't always fruitless (edit: whether overall, or in a certain department, eg micro as the OP is suggesting here). But really, isn't it a bit too early to say either way about ForGG? Let's just sit back, see what happens, and enjoy it in the mean time :D
On December 07 2011 10:54 StarStruck wrote: There is no Best player in the world. Okay? Got it? Good. People can label them whatever they want, but it doesn't make them right.
Same with the tags. ForGG might try to sell the new nickname Fin, but it doesn't mean anything. People will call him whatever the heck they want. You remember him as ForGG. I remember him as ForGG thus I'm going to continue calling him ForGG because that is who he is to me. Does it really matter? Not really.
Players can keep calling themselves all the corny nicknames in the world. Doesn't mean the new ones will stick at all.
flash. you lose
I wouldn't even call him the best at BW at the moment. Have you been watching PL? So far he hasn't faced anyone noteworthy and others could have taken advantage of him in the same position. So no. Nice try though. There are several players who are doing very well at the moment.
My understanding of it is that your original point was that there doesn't exist a 'best player in the world', and that it's just people using labels and whatnot rather than someone actually objectively being the best in the world. If that was your point, then oneofthem's reply still stands. Even if Flash is not the best right now, he was indisputably the best in the world for some time, which would contradict your point as I understand it above.
If, however, you meant to say there there is no 'best' player in the world right now, then I take back what I said above. But that begs the question why the hell are you proclaiming in a SC2 thread that there is no 'best' BW player? Of course, maybe you were actually talking about there being no best SC2 player right now. But then that would beg the question why you replied to oneofthem with a discussion of the merits of Flash's skill, rather than simply saying you weren't talking about BW. And all this leads me to think you meant what I was talking about in the first paragraph, and therefore you were actually outplayed. Nice try though.
Anyway, my personal opinion: the question who is the best in the world isn't always fruitless. But really, isn't it a bit too early to say either way about ForGG? Let's just sit back, see what happens, and enjoy it in the mean time :D
There isn't one RIGHT NOW. There are a number of guys in BOTH GAMES.
On December 07 2011 10:54 StarStruck wrote: There is no Best player in the world. Okay? Got it? Good. People can label them whatever they want, but it doesn't make them right.
Same with the tags. ForGG might try to sell the new nickname Fin, but it doesn't mean anything. People will call him whatever the heck they want. You remember him as ForGG. I remember him as ForGG thus I'm going to continue calling him ForGG because that is who he is to me. Does it really matter? Not really.
Players can keep calling themselves all the corny nicknames in the world. Doesn't mean the new ones will stick at all.
flash. you lose
I wouldn't even call him the best at BW at the moment. Have you been watching PL? So far he hasn't faced anyone noteworthy and others could have taken advantage of him in the same position. So no. Nice try though. There are several players who are doing very well at the moment.
On December 07 2011 11:31 canikizu wrote:
On December 07 2011 11:15 nitdkim wrote:
On December 07 2011 10:54 Hall0wed wrote: ForGG has been playing hardcore for 10+ months, nearly as much as most other players. That is why he is good.
source on that?
He has been playing on multiple accounts and placing top GM for a long time. The number of games on all his accounts are even more than regular pro players'. Joining oGs and living in the team house environment help him a lot with strategies and clean up his plays. That's why he's becoming a good player.
There's a valid reason why he's been laddering so much. He didn't join oGs until very recently. ;/
You know nothing about BW. Just stop.
Thank you for almost making me spit out my water.
Question have you been watching PL recently? Are you aware that Flash just had surgery? Have you seen Effort and JangBi dominate last week?
Didn't think so. Before you attempt to try and come at me bro do your research. I was there for every match and I'm all up in those LR biznatches.
There are plenty of players who can take out a vulnerable Flash right now. That's only two of them. Happy hunting!
Excuse my brashness but, are you high? Yes, Flash just recently had surgery and is still recovering to 100%.... and he is still performing in proleague. If anything that's just more proof that FlaSh is the best. Have you seen his stats? Because if you had, you wouldn't be making ridiculous comments like that ;\
On December 07 2011 10:54 StarStruck wrote: There is no Best player in the world. Okay? Got it? Good. People can label them whatever they want, but it doesn't make them right.
Same with the tags. ForGG might try to sell the new nickname Fin, but it doesn't mean anything. People will call him whatever the heck they want. You remember him as ForGG. I remember him as ForGG thus I'm going to continue calling him ForGG because that is who he is to me. Does it really matter? Not really.
Players can keep calling themselves all the corny nicknames in the world. Doesn't mean the new ones will stick at all.
flash. you lose
I wouldn't even call him the best at BW at the moment. Have you been watching PL? So far he hasn't faced anyone noteworthy and others could have taken advantage of him in the same position. So no. Nice try though. There are several players who are doing very well at the moment.
On December 07 2011 11:31 canikizu wrote:
On December 07 2011 11:15 nitdkim wrote:
On December 07 2011 10:54 Hall0wed wrote: ForGG has been playing hardcore for 10+ months, nearly as much as most other players. That is why he is good.
source on that?
He has been playing on multiple accounts and placing top GM for a long time. The number of games on all his accounts are even more than regular pro players'. Joining oGs and living in the team house environment help him a lot with strategies and clean up his plays. That's why he's becoming a good player.
There's a valid reason why he's been laddering so much. He didn't join oGs until very recently. ;/
You know nothing about BW. Just stop.
Thank you for almost making me spit out my water.
Question have you been watching PL recently? Are you aware that Flash just had surgery? Have you seen Effort and JangBi dominate last week?
Didn't think so. Before you attempt to try and come at me bro do your research. I was there for every match and I'm all up in those LR biznatches.
There are plenty of players who can take out a vulnerable Flash right now. That's only two of them. Happy hunting!
What? Effort didn't dominate. His game against Iris was incredibly sloppy and just about any top tier Terran could have won that game.
Meanwhile, Flash has been playing flawlessly as usual. Jangbi and Effort might be able to beat Flash (although I don't see Effort winning in a straightup game), but that doesn't change the fact that Flash is still the best player all things considered.
On December 07 2011 10:54 StarStruck wrote: There is no Best player in the world. Okay? Got it? Good. People can label them whatever they want, but it doesn't make them right.
Same with the tags. ForGG might try to sell the new nickname Fin, but it doesn't mean anything. People will call him whatever the heck they want. You remember him as ForGG. I remember him as ForGG thus I'm going to continue calling him ForGG because that is who he is to me. Does it really matter? Not really.
Players can keep calling themselves all the corny nicknames in the world. Doesn't mean the new ones will stick at all.
flash. you lose
I wouldn't even call him the best at BW at the moment. Have you been watching PL? So far he hasn't faced anyone noteworthy and others could have taken advantage of him in the same position. So no. Nice try though. There are several players who are doing very well at the moment.
On December 07 2011 11:31 canikizu wrote:
On December 07 2011 11:15 nitdkim wrote:
On December 07 2011 10:54 Hall0wed wrote: ForGG has been playing hardcore for 10+ months, nearly as much as most other players. That is why he is good.
source on that?
He has been playing on multiple accounts and placing top GM for a long time. The number of games on all his accounts are even more than regular pro players'. Joining oGs and living in the team house environment help him a lot with strategies and clean up his plays. That's why he's becoming a good player.
There's a valid reason why he's been laddering so much. He didn't join oGs until very recently. ;/
You know nothing about BW. Just stop.
Thank you for almost making me spit out my water.
Question have you been watching PL recently? Are you aware that Flash just had surgery? Have you seen Effort and JangBi dominate last week?
Didn't think so. Before you attempt to try and come at me bro do your research. I was there for every match and I'm all up in those LR biznatches.
There are plenty of players who can take out a vulnerable Flash right now. That's only two of them. Happy hunting!
Excuse my brashness but, are you high? Yes, Flash just recently had surgery and is still recovering to 100%.... and he is still performing in proleague. If anything that's just more proof that FlaSh is the best. Have you seen his stats? Because if you had, you wouldn't be making ridiculous comments like that ;\
Seems like I hit a note with some peeps, oh my!
Again, if you want to continue this conversation please bring it up in another thread in the BW. I will gladly talk about it more there. I have been following both scenes since the beginning, so I have a pretty darn good idea of what's happening.
I'll discuss this in any LR/BW thread, but this isn't the place for discussing why Flash shouldn't be considered the very best player no matter the game right now.
ForGG has been on an absolute tear in SC2. It's very exciting to watch him be able to execute the strategies that I feel like he's always wanted to in BW, while never slipping on macro due to SC2's less APM-intensive macro tasks.
BTW, who even said Forgg is the best player in SC2? People have merely stated that he looks to be one of the best and that he looks like he could give the likes of Nestea and MVP a run for their money. And based on the way he's playing so far, that feels completely justified to me.
On December 07 2011 10:54 StarStruck wrote: There is no Best player in the world. Okay? Got it? Good. People can label them whatever they want, but it doesn't make them right.
Same with the tags. ForGG might try to sell the new nickname Fin, but it doesn't mean anything. People will call him whatever the heck they want. You remember him as ForGG. I remember him as ForGG thus I'm going to continue calling him ForGG because that is who he is to me. Does it really matter? Not really.
Players can keep calling themselves all the corny nicknames in the world. Doesn't mean the new ones will stick at all.
flash. you lose
I wouldn't even call him the best at BW at the moment. Have you been watching PL? So far he hasn't faced anyone noteworthy and others could have taken advantage of him in the same position. So no. Nice try though. There are several players who are doing very well at the moment.
On December 07 2011 11:31 canikizu wrote:
On December 07 2011 11:15 nitdkim wrote:
On December 07 2011 10:54 Hall0wed wrote: ForGG has been playing hardcore for 10+ months, nearly as much as most other players. That is why he is good.
source on that?
He has been playing on multiple accounts and placing top GM for a long time. The number of games on all his accounts are even more than regular pro players'. Joining oGs and living in the team house environment help him a lot with strategies and clean up his plays. That's why he's becoming a good player.
There's a valid reason why he's been laddering so much. He didn't join oGs until very recently. ;/
You know nothing about BW. Just stop.
Thank you for almost making me spit out my water.
Question have you been watching PL recently? Are you aware that Flash just had surgery? Have you seen Effort and JangBi dominate last week?
Didn't think so. Before you attempt to try and come at me bro do your research. I was there for every match and I'm all up in those LR biznatches.
There are plenty of players who can take out a vulnerable Flash right now. That's only two of them. Happy hunting!
Excuse my brashness but, are you high? Yes, Flash just recently had surgery and is still recovering to 100%.... and he is still performing in proleague. If anything that's just more proof that FlaSh is the best. Have you seen his stats? Because if you had, you wouldn't be making ridiculous comments like that ;\
Seems like I hit a note with some peeps, oh my!
Again, if you want to continue this conversation please bring it up in another thread in the BW. I will gladly talk about it more there. I have been following both scenes since the beginning, so I have a pretty darn good idea of what's happening.
I'll discuss this in any LR/BW thread, but this isn't the place for discussing why Flash shouldn't be considered the very best player no matter the game right now.
There really isn't a need for discussion. A cursory glance at their achievements and statistics would tell you who is the best and who is not. Not to mention, you acknowledge that FlaSh is in a weakened state right now due to surgery, so I just can't see how you logically use his current performance (which still seems great to me o,o) as an indicator that he isn't the best anymore. Give him some time to recover fully and we will see.
On December 07 2011 10:54 StarStruck wrote: There is no Best player in the world. Okay? Got it? Good. People can label them whatever they want, but it doesn't make them right.
Same with the tags. ForGG might try to sell the new nickname Fin, but it doesn't mean anything. People will call him whatever the heck they want. You remember him as ForGG. I remember him as ForGG thus I'm going to continue calling him ForGG because that is who he is to me. Does it really matter? Not really.
Players can keep calling themselves all the corny nicknames in the world. Doesn't mean the new ones will stick at all.
flash. you lose
I wouldn't even call him the best at BW at the moment. Have you been watching PL? So far he hasn't faced anyone noteworthy and others could have taken advantage of him in the same position. So no. Nice try though. There are several players who are doing very well at the moment.
On December 07 2011 11:31 canikizu wrote:
On December 07 2011 11:15 nitdkim wrote:
On December 07 2011 10:54 Hall0wed wrote: ForGG has been playing hardcore for 10+ months, nearly as much as most other players. That is why he is good.
source on that?
He has been playing on multiple accounts and placing top GM for a long time. The number of games on all his accounts are even more than regular pro players'. Joining oGs and living in the team house environment help him a lot with strategies and clean up his plays. That's why he's becoming a good player.
There's a valid reason why he's been laddering so much. He didn't join oGs until very recently. ;/
You know nothing about BW. Just stop.
Thank you for almost making me spit out my water.
Question have you been watching PL recently? Are you aware that Flash just had surgery? Have you seen Effort and JangBi dominate last week?
Didn't think so. Before you attempt to try and come at me bro do your research. I was there for every match and I'm all up in those LR biznatches.
There are plenty of players who can take out a vulnerable Flash right now. That's only two of them. Happy hunting!
What? Effort didn't dominate. His game against Iris was incredibly sloppy and just about any top tier Terran could have won that game.
Meanwhile, Flash has been playing flawlessly as usual. Jangbi and Effort might be able to beat Flash (although I don't see Effort winning in a straightup game), but that doesn't change the fact that Flash is still the best player all things considered.
What?
Effort humiliated Iris by building around 35 queens. -_-
Are you being biased? Flash went up against Hoon and had many, many holes that JangBi would have pounced on.
Hoon did practically nothing in that game to pressure Flash at all; not to mention the poor unit composition. IT WAS A COMPLETE WALKOVER!
Jesus, we had this discussion in the LR. Something tells me you weren't active in the LR thread as that match went on.
Like I said, earlier take this to the LR thread. At least read what was said prior before you try to sell me that pack of worms.
If JangBi or Effort were to play Flash right now. I don't like Flash's chances. I could name five players who looked better than Flash last week.
On December 07 2011 10:54 StarStruck wrote: There is no Best player in the world. Okay? Got it? Good. People can label them whatever they want, but it doesn't make them right.
Same with the tags. ForGG might try to sell the new nickname Fin, but it doesn't mean anything. People will call him whatever the heck they want. You remember him as ForGG. I remember him as ForGG thus I'm going to continue calling him ForGG because that is who he is to me. Does it really matter? Not really.
Players can keep calling themselves all the corny nicknames in the world. Doesn't mean the new ones will stick at all.
flash. you lose
I wouldn't even call him the best at BW at the moment. Have you been watching PL? So far he hasn't faced anyone noteworthy and others could have taken advantage of him in the same position. So no. Nice try though. There are several players who are doing very well at the moment.
On December 07 2011 11:31 canikizu wrote:
On December 07 2011 11:15 nitdkim wrote:
On December 07 2011 10:54 Hall0wed wrote: ForGG has been playing hardcore for 10+ months, nearly as much as most other players. That is why he is good.
source on that?
He has been playing on multiple accounts and placing top GM for a long time. The number of games on all his accounts are even more than regular pro players'. Joining oGs and living in the team house environment help him a lot with strategies and clean up his plays. That's why he's becoming a good player.
There's a valid reason why he's been laddering so much. He didn't join oGs until very recently. ;/
You know nothing about BW. Just stop.
Thank you for almost making me spit out my water.
Question have you been watching PL recently? Are you aware that Flash just had surgery? Have you seen Effort and JangBi dominate last week?
Didn't think so. Before you attempt to try and come at me bro do your research. I was there for every match and I'm all up in those LR biznatches.
There are plenty of players who can take out a vulnerable Flash right now. That's only two of them. Happy hunting!
Excuse my brashness but, are you high? Yes, Flash just recently had surgery and is still recovering to 100%.... and he is still performing in proleague. If anything that's just more proof that FlaSh is the best. Have you seen his stats? Because if you had, you wouldn't be making ridiculous comments like that ;\
Seems like I hit a note with some peeps, oh my!
Again, if you want to continue this conversation please bring it up in another thread in the BW. I will gladly talk about it more there. I have been following both scenes since the beginning, so I have a pretty darn good idea of what's happening.
I'll discuss this in any LR/BW thread, but this isn't the place for discussing why Flash shouldn't be considered the very best player no matter the game right now.
There really isn't a need for discussion. A cursory glance at their achievements and statistics would tell you who is the best and who is not. Not to mention, you acknowledge that FlaSh is in a weakened state right now due to surgery, so I just can't see how you logically use his current performance (which still seems great to me o,o) as an indicator that he isn't the best anymore. Give him some time to recover fully and we will see.
What part of RIGHT NOW do you completely miss? I'm not talking about previous accomplishments. I'm not talking about the present or the future. I'm talking about the here and now.
I think Fin's major advantage is that he's able to approach the game with a perspective unencumbered by habits formed by the previous metagame. His builds and timings are unexpected because he does weird things. In a way, some of the other players who've been around the scene a while more tend to execute textbook builds perfectly, a baneling bust is a baneling bust.
It's probably much harder to read this player, for now. Regardless, I think Fin does show a ton of potential and he's also playing the race with the biggest and most varied toolbox.
Also, guys, I don't want to sound nitpicky, but his macro was slipping in some of the games I saw. Not terribly, but he was definitely focusing on the micro to the exclusion of the macro (since he won, was obviously the right choice). He floated minerals a bit in both games I saw. Still, he's friggin awesome though.
On December 07 2011 10:54 StarStruck wrote: There is no Best player in the world. Okay? Got it? Good. People can label them whatever they want, but it doesn't make them right.
Same with the tags. ForGG might try to sell the new nickname Fin, but it doesn't mean anything. People will call him whatever the heck they want. You remember him as ForGG. I remember him as ForGG thus I'm going to continue calling him ForGG because that is who he is to me. Does it really matter? Not really.
Players can keep calling themselves all the corny nicknames in the world. Doesn't mean the new ones will stick at all.
flash. you lose
I wouldn't even call him the best at BW at the moment. Have you been watching PL? So far he hasn't faced anyone noteworthy and others could have taken advantage of him in the same position. So no. Nice try though. There are several players who are doing very well at the moment.
On December 07 2011 11:31 canikizu wrote:
On December 07 2011 11:15 nitdkim wrote:
On December 07 2011 10:54 Hall0wed wrote: ForGG has been playing hardcore for 10+ months, nearly as much as most other players. That is why he is good.
source on that?
He has been playing on multiple accounts and placing top GM for a long time. The number of games on all his accounts are even more than regular pro players'. Joining oGs and living in the team house environment help him a lot with strategies and clean up his plays. That's why he's becoming a good player.
There's a valid reason why he's been laddering so much. He didn't join oGs until very recently. ;/
You know nothing about BW. Just stop.
Thank you for almost making me spit out my water.
Question have you been watching PL recently? Are you aware that Flash just had surgery? Have you seen Effort and JangBi dominate last week?
Didn't think so. Before you attempt to try and come at me bro do your research. I was there for every match and I'm all up in those LR biznatches.
There are plenty of players who can take out a vulnerable Flash right now. That's only two of them. Happy hunting!
Excuse my brashness but, are you high? Yes, Flash just recently had surgery and is still recovering to 100%.... and he is still performing in proleague. If anything that's just more proof that FlaSh is the best. Have you seen his stats? Because if you had, you wouldn't be making ridiculous comments like that ;\
Seems like I hit a note with some peeps, oh my!
Again, if you want to continue this conversation please bring it up in another thread in the BW. I will gladly talk about it more there. I have been following both scenes since the beginning, so I have a pretty darn good idea of what's happening.
I'll discuss this in any LR/BW thread, but this isn't the place for discussing why Flash shouldn't be considered the very best player no matter the game right now.
If your that sure, why dont you open up a blog like Rekrul has before and put your money where your mouth is. Tell us what players you'll take to get further than Flash in the next OSL. Flash vs. Jangbi Flash vs. Effort /Bisu/Dong/Random player E I'm the biggest KT hater around, but at least I respect the guy. Put a few grand on it if your That sure, it will at least be an extra entertaining OSL.
On December 07 2011 10:54 StarStruck wrote: There is no Best player in the world. Okay? Got it? Good. People can label them whatever they want, but it doesn't make them right.
Same with the tags. ForGG might try to sell the new nickname Fin, but it doesn't mean anything. People will call him whatever the heck they want. You remember him as ForGG. I remember him as ForGG thus I'm going to continue calling him ForGG because that is who he is to me. Does it really matter? Not really.
Players can keep calling themselves all the corny nicknames in the world. Doesn't mean the new ones will stick at all.
flash. you lose
I wouldn't even call him the best at BW at the moment. Have you been watching PL? So far he hasn't faced anyone noteworthy and others could have taken advantage of him in the same position. So no. Nice try though. There are several players who are doing very well at the moment.
On December 07 2011 11:31 canikizu wrote:
On December 07 2011 11:15 nitdkim wrote:
On December 07 2011 10:54 Hall0wed wrote: ForGG has been playing hardcore for 10+ months, nearly as much as most other players. That is why he is good.
source on that?
He has been playing on multiple accounts and placing top GM for a long time. The number of games on all his accounts are even more than regular pro players'. Joining oGs and living in the team house environment help him a lot with strategies and clean up his plays. That's why he's becoming a good player.
There's a valid reason why he's been laddering so much. He didn't join oGs until very recently. ;/
You know nothing about BW. Just stop.
Thank you for almost making me spit out my water.
Question have you been watching PL recently? Are you aware that Flash just had surgery? Have you seen Effort and JangBi dominate last week?
Didn't think so. Before you attempt to try and come at me bro do your research. I was there for every match and I'm all up in those LR biznatches.
There are plenty of players who can take out a vulnerable Flash right now. That's only two of them. Happy hunting!
What? Effort didn't dominate. His game against Iris was incredibly sloppy and just about any top tier Terran could have won that game.
Meanwhile, Flash has been playing flawlessly as usual. Jangbi and Effort might be able to beat Flash (although I don't see Effort winning in a straightup game), but that doesn't change the fact that Flash is still the best player all things considered.
What?
Effort humiliated Iris by building around 35 queens. -_-
Are you being biased? Flash went up against Hoon and had many, many holes that JangBi would have pounced on.
Hoon did practically nothing in that game to pressure Flash at all; not to mention the poor unit composition. IT WAS A COMPLETE WALKOVER!
Jesus, we had this discussion in the LR. Something tells me you weren't active in the LR thread as that match went on.
Like I said, earlier take this to the LR thread. At least read what was said prior before you try to sell me that pack of worms.
If JangBi or Effort were to play Flash right now. I don't like Flash's chances. I could name five players who looked better than Flash last week.
The fact that you think building "35 queens" (he made like a dozen but ok) is a humiliation tactics against Terran lategame mech makes me realize that you haven't followed BW much last season. FYI, Jaehoon is currently a better player than Iris and hyvaa. Really, your entire post is just absurd. I'm aware that you've been posting on the PL LR threads from this season and that makes your claims all the more ridiculous.
On December 07 2011 10:54 StarStruck wrote: There is no Best player in the world. Okay? Got it? Good. People can label them whatever they want, but it doesn't make them right.
Same with the tags. ForGG might try to sell the new nickname Fin, but it doesn't mean anything. People will call him whatever the heck they want. You remember him as ForGG. I remember him as ForGG thus I'm going to continue calling him ForGG because that is who he is to me. Does it really matter? Not really.
Players can keep calling themselves all the corny nicknames in the world. Doesn't mean the new ones will stick at all.
flash. you lose
I wouldn't even call him the best at BW at the moment. Have you been watching PL? So far he hasn't faced anyone noteworthy and others could have taken advantage of him in the same position. So no. Nice try though. There are several players who are doing very well at the moment.
On December 07 2011 11:31 canikizu wrote:
On December 07 2011 11:15 nitdkim wrote:
On December 07 2011 10:54 Hall0wed wrote: ForGG has been playing hardcore for 10+ months, nearly as much as most other players. That is why he is good.
source on that?
He has been playing on multiple accounts and placing top GM for a long time. The number of games on all his accounts are even more than regular pro players'. Joining oGs and living in the team house environment help him a lot with strategies and clean up his plays. That's why he's becoming a good player.
There's a valid reason why he's been laddering so much. He didn't join oGs until very recently. ;/
You know nothing about BW. Just stop.
Thank you for almost making me spit out my water.
Question have you been watching PL recently? Are you aware that Flash just had surgery? Have you seen Effort and JangBi dominate last week?
Didn't think so. Before you attempt to try and come at me bro do your research. I was there for every match and I'm all up in those LR biznatches.
There are plenty of players who can take out a vulnerable Flash right now. That's only two of them. Happy hunting!
Excuse my brashness but, are you high? Yes, Flash just recently had surgery and is still recovering to 100%.... and he is still performing in proleague. If anything that's just more proof that FlaSh is the best. Have you seen his stats? Because if you had, you wouldn't be making ridiculous comments like that ;\
Seems like I hit a note with some peeps, oh my!
Again, if you want to continue this conversation please bring it up in another thread in the BW. I will gladly talk about it more there. I have been following both scenes since the beginning, so I have a pretty darn good idea of what's happening.
I'll discuss this in any LR/BW thread, but this isn't the place for discussing why Flash shouldn't be considered the very best player no matter the game right now.
If your that sure, why dont you open up a blog like Rekrul has before and put your money where your mouth is. Tell us what players you'll take to get further than Flash in the next OSL. Flash vs. Jangbi Flash vs. Effort /Bisu/Dong/Random player E I'm the biggest KT hater around, but at least I respect the guy. Put a few grand on it if your That sure, it will at least be an extra entertaining OSL.
I do all the fucking time. o_O Jesus.
I love how many people are trying to take blind jabs at me. Then again, considering all the posts I've made in the past who the hell would want to do their research to try and win an argument with me anyway?
Look I post all the fucking time. If you want to talk about such players I'm pretty easy to find.
I have won a lot of money in the past on UFC, money bets and Starcraft. I wouldn't be throwing blanks if there wasn't some truth in what I say.
JangBi resurgence and Effort's reemergence and coach Han saying Effort looks better than when he left? Those are only two examples.
Flash has a lot of obstacles in his way. This OSL is going to be one of the best we've seen in quite some time.
On December 07 2011 10:54 StarStruck wrote: There is no Best player in the world. Okay? Got it? Good. People can label them whatever they want, but it doesn't make them right.
Same with the tags. ForGG might try to sell the new nickname Fin, but it doesn't mean anything. People will call him whatever the heck they want. You remember him as ForGG. I remember him as ForGG thus I'm going to continue calling him ForGG because that is who he is to me. Does it really matter? Not really.
Players can keep calling themselves all the corny nicknames in the world. Doesn't mean the new ones will stick at all.
flash. you lose
I wouldn't even call him the best at BW at the moment. Have you been watching PL? So far he hasn't faced anyone noteworthy and others could have taken advantage of him in the same position. So no. Nice try though. There are several players who are doing very well at the moment.
On December 07 2011 11:31 canikizu wrote:
On December 07 2011 11:15 nitdkim wrote:
On December 07 2011 10:54 Hall0wed wrote: ForGG has been playing hardcore for 10+ months, nearly as much as most other players. That is why he is good.
source on that?
He has been playing on multiple accounts and placing top GM for a long time. The number of games on all his accounts are even more than regular pro players'. Joining oGs and living in the team house environment help him a lot with strategies and clean up his plays. That's why he's becoming a good player.
There's a valid reason why he's been laddering so much. He didn't join oGs until very recently. ;/
You know nothing about BW. Just stop.
Thank you for almost making me spit out my water.
Question have you been watching PL recently? Are you aware that Flash just had surgery? Have you seen Effort and JangBi dominate last week?
Didn't think so. Before you attempt to try and come at me bro do your research. I was there for every match and I'm all up in those LR biznatches.
There are plenty of players who can take out a vulnerable Flash right now. That's only two of them. Happy hunting!
What? Effort didn't dominate. His game against Iris was incredibly sloppy and just about any top tier Terran could have won that game.
Meanwhile, Flash has been playing flawlessly as usual. Jangbi and Effort might be able to beat Flash (although I don't see Effort winning in a straightup game), but that doesn't change the fact that Flash is still the best player all things considered.
What?
Effort humiliated Iris by building around 35 queens. -_-
Are you being biased? Flash went up against Hoon and had many, many holes that JangBi would have pounced on.
Hoon did practically nothing in that game to pressure Flash at all; not to mention the poor unit composition. IT WAS A COMPLETE WALKOVER!
Jesus, we had this discussion in the LR. Something tells me you weren't active in the LR thread as that match went on.
Like I said, earlier take this to the LR thread. At least read what was said prior before you try to sell me that pack of worms.
If JangBi or Effort were to play Flash right now. I don't like Flash's chances. I could name five players who looked better than Flash last week.
The fact that you think building "35 queens" (he made like a dozen but ok) is a humiliation tactics against Terran lategame mech makes me realize that you haven't followed BW much last season. FYI, Jaehoon is currently a better player than Iris and hyvaa. Really, your entire post is just absurd. I'm aware that you've been posting on the PL LR threads from this season and that makes your claims all the more ridiculous.
He made way more than a dozen queens. Watch it again. Hoon played terrible that game and it was addressed at length in that LR. You want to rebut any of the points i made in that thread then do it.
Nah, man. I've been following all this time but okay. Whatever helps you sleep at night.
You want to continue this discussion PM me or take it to the LR threads.
I watched the games vs july and was impressed as all hell especially by the first one ( thank god ladder players can't micro reapers that well). I don't think fin is an incoming god but I do feel like he will shake things up for a while, it's hard to know for sure where he will settle in the hierarchy of the GSL.
That said I'd like to address something that comes up in all these BW vs Sc2 threads. July, Nada, Boxer etc are all important parts of BW's rich history and they seem to get an undue amount of disrespect these days. Yes they were not in thier primes when they switched over, no one is arguing that. It's impossible to compare their performances in sc2 to newer BW pro players moving over. However I can't count the amount of times I have seen someone go " Oh Boxer was only good before x metagame shift and Nada's peak was before x era so you know even they weren't as good as Player abc who was good at such and such a time who is now moving over etc as if belittling past legends to prop up new people is cool. Is it such a great betrayal to some bw fans ( because some of us enjoy both games you know) that people have switched games, that they must try to tarnish their reputations now? It just makes no sense to see fans turn their back on past idols because god forbid they continue their careers where they can now.
I can understand criticism and correcting facts aka Boxer or Nada not at thier primes is not a good example of top tier BW terran style play and does not indicate what a newer bw terran moving over now can do despite what some sc2 fans try and say. I cannot understand the need to continue on from corrections and move into snide and offensive statement tearing a player down to further emphasize how only new and until recently loyal bw players are any good. IDK it's just frustrating to see.
I don't care why players are good or what it proves, I care that they bring interesting things to watch in their play and provide perhaps a new way of viewing or playing the game. .
On December 07 2011 08:22 aintz wrote: fin is definitely skillful you cannot deny that but lets not get hyped up too much. players who are good at bw should be good at sc2 but you cant just say one game takes more skill than the other.
All other things aside, the AI/pathing, no-auto harvest, 12 control group limit, etc...of BW are much harder things to deal with. So all other things equal (which idk if that's even true), BW is a harder game with more skill required. How is Sc2 just as high of a skill requirement as broodwar, when it is much easier to execute as a whole.
because its easier for both people and if there aren't limitations, they can do other things. For example multitasking in bw, the highest feeling was macroing their base and being at 2 places at once. Which some diamond level player are capable of. Means if you are good you will be able to be at 4 places at once.
As for forGG's success, its a playstyle the others weren't really used to, thats why he poofed through 3 differen races with ease, as they weren't really able to prepare, while their playstyle were well known. Added some underestimation and there you go. MLG Dreamhack and all those weekender tournaments where foreigners and korean meet, are a good example of this, especially naniwa who likes to march through the tournament because of his unique micro style.
So don't overreact. its just the unknown factor.
Have you even watched BW? Seriously, if you're going to comment on stuff like this you should at least be familar with both games
You did a terrible job of addressing his point by overlooking the fact that it was an example. He's essentially saying that the limitation caused by the difficult macro effected multitasking; as in the hallmark of a top BW player was the ability to macro flawlessly and be in X places at once with his multitasking. He then posits that since macro is easier in SC2, the hallmark of a good player will be that he'll have to be doing twice as much multitasking (and that easier macro will allow him to do so).
In that regard, I agree with him. This has been a long held belief of mine that
1) If you have perfect AI controlled machines controlling the action, then yes, the skill ceiling of BW is higher.
2) With human players, the skill ceiling of either game is out of reach and thus neither game is 'harder,' within the realms of what a human can attain. In other words, no person can ever be good enough at SC2 or BW to demonstrate that one is clearly harder. BW just happens to have over a decade of a headstart in development.
3) With the easier macro in SC2, more of a players mechanical ability will simply be diverted to other areas. Think of it like this. If the idea of 'skill' or mechanics were to be illustrated as 50% emphasis on micro / 50% emphasis on macro (a gross oversimplification) in BW, then SC2 may develop into more of a 65/35 split. The two games would be/will be equally taxing in two different proportions.
It's a good point but multitasking actually has a hard ceiling in sc2 because of how hard it is to defend and the strength of deathballs....for example once enemy deathball gets too powerful its really hard to break off more then a few unit and that limits the multitasking because you'll get ran over and die... and if you "multitask in 4 places at once" you're basically doing a base trade if the opponent has a deathball...
Now I hope blizz follows this ideal with sc2 being more known for multitasking to higher its skillcap by first making it easier to defend places with less units/stationary defense... and not get run over so easy
Being the best player is not the same being invincible. While other players could certainly beat Flash, if they played 100 games in a row, do you think there is anyone who would win more game than him? Ignoring his injuries, of course. I do not know how that would effect his ability to play that many games, hahaha.
On December 07 2011 12:49 Tehs Tehklz wrote: Being the best player is not the same being invincible. While other players could certainly beat Flash, if they played 100 games in a row, do you think there is anyone who would win more game than him? Ignoring his injuries, of course. I do not know how that would effect his ability to play that many games, hahaha.
That's a very good question. Wish we could do something like that!
One thing is for sure, there is a lot of uncertainty and it's way too early in the season.
Lots of players have shown great early performances. The question now is can they maintain it. It's open season in both games and I wouldn't have it any other way!
The only thing that matters to me, is the here and now. =)
On December 07 2011 12:49 Tehs Tehklz wrote: Being the best player is not the same being invincible. While other players could certainly beat Flash, if they played 100 games in a row, do you think there is anyone who would win more game than him? Ignoring his injuries, of course. I do not know how that would effect his ability to play that many games, hahaha.
That's a very good question. Wish we could do something like that!
One thing is for sure, there is a lot of uncertainty and it's way too early in the season.
Lots of players have shown great early performances. The question now is can they maintain it. It's open season in both games and I wouldn't have it any other way!
The only thing that matters to me, is the here and now. =)
I can understand how other players are dangerous and could take a game of flash, but are you saying if you had to absolutely pick one best player you wouldn't choose flash? Who would you choose?
let forgg do his job. yes, he's good. very good. you just have to look at his achievements to realise that he is. no one who is not very good can win a starleague. yes, it was comparatively recent.
enough speculation. forgg doesn't hype himself up - it's business as usual for him. let's just support him.
please continue hyping this stephano and drg fellow...they actually need it.
i must say though, i'm very happy forgg is showcasing a new kind of terran style. it's exciting to watch and a pity that his opponents crumbled so quickly. no one should doubt forgg's macro ability, though. that's a ridiculous notion.
On December 07 2011 12:36 Lavi wrote: It's a good point but multitasking actually has a hard ceiling in sc2 because of how hard it is to defend and the strength of deathballs....for example once enemy deathball gets too powerful its really hard to break off more then a few unit and that limits the multitasking because you'll get ran over and die... and if you "multitask in 4 places at once" you're basically doing a base trade if the opponent has a deathball...
that's really unfair, mostly because what you're qqing about exists in brood war anyway
oh no the terran got his unstoppable 200/200 mech deathball i lose hooray i have my unstoppable 200/200 carrier deathball i win
is this a gross oversimplication? yes it is, but so is your assessment of sc2
On December 07 2011 12:49 Tehs Tehklz wrote: Being the best player is not the same being invincible. While other players could certainly beat Flash, if they played 100 games in a row, do you think there is anyone who would win more game than him? Ignoring his injuries, of course. I do not know how that would effect his ability to play that many games, hahaha.
That's a very good question. Wish we could do something like that!
One thing is for sure, there is a lot of uncertainty and it's way too early in the season.
Lots of players have shown great early performances. The question now is can they maintain it. It's open season in both games and I wouldn't have it any other way!
The only thing that matters to me, is the here and now. =)
I can understand how other players are dangerous and could take a game of flash, but are you saying if you had to absolutely pick one best player you wouldn't choose flash? Who would you choose?
That's the thing: I wouldn't because there are several players who have stepped up and are on pace to take their game to the next level. I don't pick bests. I pickup match-ups.
I'll play along by picking a match-up.
You asked for one guy, so I'll give you one.
I've always been one of the loudest critics of JangBi. After all his struggles and 2nd place finishes he finally won an OSL. He deserves a pat on the back. Furthermore, JangBi has already gotten off to a great start in PL against Light. No hang over.
If Flash were to play another Bo5 against JangBi right now on the current maps. I'd go with JangBi.
Flash hasn't really been tested yet after the surgery; all his games have been walkovers thus far and JangBi's PvT is looking stronger than ever.
-
Does this mean that I think JangBi is the best player? Absolutely not. I don't think in terms of absolutes. What it does mean is this: I think JangBi's PvT would be too much for Flash to handle right now. I have seen no proof from Flash to think otherwise.
I think players like Effort or Jangbi in their primes are always capable to beat Flash, they seem to have his numbers when it matters. I think this year will be key to determining if Flash is immortal or not.
On December 07 2011 12:24 MasterBlasterCaster wrote: Also, guys, I don't want to sound nitpicky, but his macro was slipping in some of the games I saw. Not terribly, but he was definitely focusing on the micro to the exclusion of the macro (since he won, was obviously the right choice). He floated minerals a bit in both games I saw. Still, he's friggin awesome though.
Yah he had 1-2k minerals when he was playing against Polt.
I think this hype is along the lines of Stephano but Forgg has people from BW wanting him to beat everyone nonBW who will hype him like crazy. Forgg has showed some cool builds but the things he has done so far are things that other top players can do too. He has also yet to beat one of the people who have been on fire lately from any race.(OZ,MC, Hero, Nestea,Leenock, MVP, Jikaji, MMA)
Sage- Hasn't done anything in ages. Never really did too much Polt- Hasn't had a repeat of the first tournament playing since then. I saw these games and he handled a simple banshee very poorly and lost the game with that. July- Has been on a bit of a downer lately. Lost to a simple bunker rush? Does anyone really think Nestea/Leenock/DRG would have let the bunker complete?
Again. I think he looks good but until he shows results this whole "every BW player currently playing will be better than every non BW player" stuff is just ridiculous. Many of the top sc2 players have very good control and many of them have a very high level of dedication. I would fully expect every BW player to be good at sc2. I would not expect every single one to be on the same level they were on before. Some might be better and some worse(SHOCKINGLY worse than the current sc2 players).
From what I have seen of Forgg he is better than some code S players and looked worse than some. The blind BW people saying he is better than MVP apparently missed his games in the weekly.
Forgg is NOT better than MVP at this point. Hype is ridiculous on these forums.
On December 07 2011 12:24 MasterBlasterCaster wrote: Also, guys, I don't want to sound nitpicky, but his macro was slipping in some of the games I saw. Not terribly, but he was definitely focusing on the micro to the exclusion of the macro (since he won, was obviously the right choice). He floated minerals a bit in both games I saw. Still, he's friggin awesome though.
Yah he had 1-2k minerals when he was playing against Polt.
I think this hype is along the lines of Stephano but Forgg has people from BW wanting him to beat everyone nonBW who will hype him like crazy. Forgg has showed some cool builds but the things he has done so far are things that other top players can do too. He has also yet to beat one of the people who have been on fire lately from any race.(OZ,MC, Hero, Nestea,Leenock, MVP, Jikaji, MMA)
Sage- Hasn't done anything in ages. Never really did too much Polt- Hasn't had a repeat of the first tournament playing since then. I saw these games and he handled a simple banshee very poorly and lost the game with that. July- Has been on a bit of a downer lately. Lost to a simple bunker rush? Does anyone really think Nestea/Leenock/DRG would have let the bunker complete?
Again. I think he looks good but until he shows results this whole "every BW player currently playing will be better than every non BW player" stuff is just ridiculous. Many of the top sc2 players have very good control and many of them have a very high level of dedication. I would fully expect every BW player to be good at sc2. I would not expect every single one to be on the same level they were on before. Some might be better and some worse(SHOCKINGLY worse than the current sc2 players).
From what I have seen of Forgg he is better than some code S players and looked worse than some. The blind BW people saying he is better than MVP apparently missed his games in the weekly.
Forgg is NOT better than MVP at this point. Hype is ridiculous on these forums.
He had 0 gas. When you play mech, you will float minerals. Float gas when you go bio. That's normal.
On December 07 2011 12:24 MasterBlasterCaster wrote: Also, guys, I don't want to sound nitpicky, but his macro was slipping in some of the games I saw. Not terribly, but he was definitely focusing on the micro to the exclusion of the macro (since he won, was obviously the right choice). He floated minerals a bit in both games I saw. Still, he's friggin awesome though.
Yah he had 1-2k minerals when he was playing against Polt.
I think this hype is along the lines of Stephano but Forgg has people from BW wanting him to beat everyone nonBW who will hype him like crazy. Forgg has showed some cool builds but the things he has done so far are things that other top players can do too. He has also yet to beat one of the people who have been on fire lately from any race.(OZ,MC, Hero, Nestea,Leenock, MVP, Jikaji, MMA)
Sage- Hasn't done anything in ages. Never really did too much Polt- Hasn't had a repeat of the first tournament playing since then. I saw these games and he handled a simple banshee very poorly and lost the game with that. July- Has been on a bit of a downer lately. Lost to a simple bunker rush? Does anyone really think Nestea/Leenock/DRG would have let the bunker complete?
Again. I think he looks good but until he shows results this whole "every BW player currently playing will be better than every non BW player" stuff is just ridiculous. Many of the top sc2 players have very good control and many of them have a very high level of dedication. I would fully expect every BW player to be good at sc2. I would not expect every single one to be on the same level they were on before. Some might be better and some worse(SHOCKINGLY worse than the current sc2 players).
From what I have seen of Forgg he is better than some code S players and looked worse than some. The blind BW people saying he is better than MVP apparently missed his games in the weekly.
Forgg is NOT better than MVP at this point. Hype is ridiculous on these forums.
He had 0 gas. When you play mech, you will float minerals. Float gas when you go bio. That's normal.
He wasn't maxed, hellions cost no gas to make and are part of mech, and he had gas floating too.
On December 07 2011 12:49 Tehs Tehklz wrote: Being the best player is not the same being invincible. While other players could certainly beat Flash, if they played 100 games in a row, do you think there is anyone who would win more game than him? Ignoring his injuries, of course. I do not know how that would effect his ability to play that many games, hahaha.
That's a very good question. Wish we could do something like that!
One thing is for sure, there is a lot of uncertainty and it's way too early in the season.
Lots of players have shown great early performances. The question now is can they maintain it. It's open season in both games and I wouldn't have it any other way!
The only thing that matters to me, is the here and now. =)
I can understand how other players are dangerous and could take a game of flash, but are you saying if you had to absolutely pick one best player you wouldn't choose flash? Who would you choose?
That's the thing: I wouldn't because there are several players who have stepped up and are on pace to take their game to the next level. I don't pick bests. I pickup match-ups.
I'll play along by picking a match-up.
You asked for one guy, so I'll give you one.
I've always been one of the loudest critics of JangBi. After all his struggles and 2nd place finishes he finally won an OSL. He deserves a pat on the back. Furthermore, JangBi has already gotten off to a great start in PL against Light. No hang over.
If Flash were to play another Bo5 against JangBi right now on the current maps. I'd go with JangBi.
Flash hasn't really been tested yet after the surgery; all his games have been walkovers thus far and JangBi's PvT is looking stronger than ever.
-
Does this mean that I think JangBi is the best player? Absolutely not. I don't think in terms of absolutes. What it does mean is this: I think JangBi's PvT would be too much for Flash to handle right now. I have seen no proof from Flash to think otherwise.
On the 9th sk proleague KT v SKT1 , we will see how flash deals with skt1 protoss line up and I am sure he will not disappoint you.
While Fin has been looking impressive, I think that the value of his games against Sage is overrated. Properly controlled proxy rax against 1-gate is not exactly astonishing; neither is stutterstepping against a crippled opponent with a Zealot-heavy army which keeps engaging poorly. Let us also not forget that Polt went for a fairly questionable style, and that many other Zergs would have reacted much better than the slumping July.
On December 07 2011 12:49 Tehs Tehklz wrote: Being the best player is not the same being invincible. While other players could certainly beat Flash, if they played 100 games in a row, do you think there is anyone who would win more game than him? Ignoring his injuries, of course. I do not know how that would effect his ability to play that many games, hahaha.
That's a very good question. Wish we could do something like that!
One thing is for sure, there is a lot of uncertainty and it's way too early in the season.
Lots of players have shown great early performances. The question now is can they maintain it. It's open season in both games and I wouldn't have it any other way!
The only thing that matters to me, is the here and now. =)
I can understand how other players are dangerous and could take a game of flash, but are you saying if you had to absolutely pick one best player you wouldn't choose flash? Who would you choose?
That's the thing: I wouldn't because there are several players who have stepped up and are on pace to take their game to the next level. I don't pick bests. I pickup match-ups.
I'll play along by picking a match-up.
You asked for one guy, so I'll give you one.
I've always been one of the loudest critics of JangBi. After all his struggles and 2nd place finishes he finally won an OSL. He deserves a pat on the back. Furthermore, JangBi has already gotten off to a great start in PL against Light. No hang over.
If Flash were to play another Bo5 against JangBi right now on the current maps. I'd go with JangBi.
Flash hasn't really been tested yet after the surgery; all his games have been walkovers thus far and JangBi's PvT is looking stronger than ever.
-
Does this mean that I think JangBi is the best player? Absolutely not. I don't think in terms of absolutes. What it does mean is this: I think JangBi's PvT would be too much for Flash to handle right now. I have seen no proof from Flash to think otherwise.
On the 9th sk proleague KT v SKT1 , we will see how flash deals with skt1 protoss line up and I am sure he will not disappoint you.
Who cares, his team will lose anyway.
Either way, ForGG has interesting builds but he is probably overhyped, as are many other players, on the other hand, so far he has been living up to that hype, so we will see if he manages to get a code A win straight away.
On December 07 2011 12:49 Tehs Tehklz wrote: Being the best player is not the same being invincible. While other players could certainly beat Flash, if they played 100 games in a row, do you think there is anyone who would win more game than him? Ignoring his injuries, of course. I do not know how that would effect his ability to play that many games, hahaha.
That's a very good question. Wish we could do something like that!
One thing is for sure, there is a lot of uncertainty and it's way too early in the season.
Lots of players have shown great early performances. The question now is can they maintain it. It's open season in both games and I wouldn't have it any other way!
The only thing that matters to me, is the here and now. =)
I can understand how other players are dangerous and could take a game of flash, but are you saying if you had to absolutely pick one best player you wouldn't choose flash? Who would you choose?
That's the thing: I wouldn't because there are several players who have stepped up and are on pace to take their game to the next level. I don't pick bests. I pickup match-ups.
I'll play along by picking a match-up.
You asked for one guy, so I'll give you one.
I've always been one of the loudest critics of JangBi. After all his struggles and 2nd place finishes he finally won an OSL. He deserves a pat on the back. Furthermore, JangBi has already gotten off to a great start in PL against Light. No hang over.
If Flash were to play another Bo5 against JangBi right now on the current maps. I'd go with JangBi.
Flash hasn't really been tested yet after the surgery; all his games have been walkovers thus far and JangBi's PvT is looking stronger than ever.
-
Does this mean that I think JangBi is the best player? Absolutely not. I don't think in terms of absolutes. What it does mean is this: I think JangBi's PvT would be too much for Flash to handle right now. I have seen no proof from Flash to think otherwise.
I don't know about that...I think it was more that Jangbi had a lot of favourable circumstances that allowed him to beat Flash.
For one, he had an entire month where all he had to do was practice vs Flash after his game vs Baby.
Flash had about 1 week to practice against Jangbi after the grand finals. I'm pretty sure he went all out for the grand finals and he played/practised for it in pain because of his arm.
I'm not saying that Jangbi didn't deserve the win but that Flash isn't a robot and you really can't compare the two equally under such circumstances.
I'm not sure if Flash is back in form though either after his surgery. He had to take a lot of time off because of it. Hopefully it won't take him too long to get back into the groove.
On December 07 2011 10:54 Hall0wed wrote: ForGG has been playing hardcore for 10+ months, nearly as much as most other players. That is why he is good.
source on that?
He played against HuK on stream like 4month ago...
On December 07 2011 10:54 Hall0wed wrote: ForGG has been playing hardcore for 10+ months, nearly as much as most other players. That is why he is good.
source on that?
He played against HuK on stream like 4month ago...
You seem to not understand that there is a difference between ladder and team-house training. The first he has been doing for 8+ months. The second of which he has been doing for 2.
He's great and all maybe even changing how pros ought to play the game! But.. what does this mean for observers/casters. Is Fin good enough that tastosis has to step up their obs control?
"The way I play is to create a pattern where I have an advantage, and then crush my opponents with momentum. That way my opponent can’t play with 100% of his skill. That’s why I think mind-games are more important than skill." - iloveoov
I'd describe his play as being more tactic-centric as compared to strategy-centric than we have been seeing from top players since beta
On December 07 2011 10:54 Hall0wed wrote: ForGG has been playing hardcore for 10+ months, nearly as much as most other players. That is why he is good.
source on that?
He played against HuK on stream like 4month ago...
...playing hardcore for 10+ months...
...is not equal to playing on ladder (10+ months as well). I'm not saying he have or haven't but that isn't proof of anything.
On December 07 2011 12:24 MasterBlasterCaster wrote: Also, guys, I don't want to sound nitpicky, but his macro was slipping in some of the games I saw. Not terribly, but he was definitely focusing on the micro to the exclusion of the macro (since he won, was obviously the right choice). He floated minerals a bit in both games I saw. Still, he's friggin awesome though.
Yah he had 1-2k minerals when he was playing against Polt.
I think this hype is along the lines of Stephano but Forgg has people from BW wanting him to beat everyone nonBW who will hype him like crazy. Forgg has showed some cool builds but the things he has done so far are things that other top players can do too. He has also yet to beat one of the people who have been on fire lately from any race.(OZ,MC, Hero, Nestea,Leenock, MVP, Jikaji, MMA)
From what I have seen of Forgg he is better than some code S players and looked worse than some. The blind BW people saying he is better than MVP apparently missed his games in the weekly.
Forgg is NOT better than MVP at this point. Hype is ridiculous on these forums.
give the guy a break, he is playing seriously (team house etc.) for 2 months now, he's playing the game itself or 10months now. i believe in mid 2012 he can show his true skill and i'm pretty sure he will be better than mvp
I'm fairly new to the SC2 scene, but watching Fin/fOrGG embarrass all of his opponents in Code-A has me believing the players we consider "the best" are mostly going to become the "has-beens." Its clear to me after reading people's comments that Fin has been practicing these precise strategies for 1-year+ and we've barely scratched the surface of what he's discovered. I had to post because I'm extremely excited to watch Starcraft II age and develop with players using real-life rules of war to win battles/games.
On December 07 2011 12:24 MasterBlasterCaster wrote: Also, guys, I don't want to sound nitpicky, but his macro was slipping in some of the games I saw. Not terribly, but he was definitely focusing on the micro to the exclusion of the macro (since he won, was obviously the right choice). He floated minerals a bit in both games I saw. Still, he's friggin awesome though.
Yah he had 1-2k minerals when he was playing against Polt.
I think this hype is along the lines of Stephano but Forgg has people from BW wanting him to beat everyone nonBW who will hype him like crazy. Forgg has showed some cool builds but the things he has done so far are things that other top players can do too. He has also yet to beat one of the people who have been on fire lately from any race.(OZ,MC, Hero, Nestea,Leenock, MVP, Jikaji, MMA)
From what I have seen of Forgg he is better than some code S players and looked worse than some. The blind BW people saying he is better than MVP apparently missed his games in the weekly.
Forgg is NOT better than MVP at this point. Hype is ridiculous on these forums.
give the guy a break, he is playing seriously (team house etc.) for 2 months now, he's playing the game itself or 10months now. i believe in mid 2012 he can show his true skill and i'm pretty sure he will be better than mvp
Give him a break? I'm not the one of those people saying he is already the best player in sc2. Many people have already been saying that. The opposite viewpoint needs to be voiced or the crazies will think that they are the only ones with opinions.
On December 07 2011 12:36 Lavi wrote: It's a good point but multitasking actually has a hard ceiling in sc2 because of how hard it is to defend and the strength of deathballs....for example once enemy deathball gets too powerful its really hard to break off more then a few unit and that limits the multitasking because you'll get ran over and die... and if you "multitask in 4 places at once" you're basically doing a base trade if the opponent has a deathball...
that's really unfair, mostly because what you're qqing about exists in brood war anyway
oh no the terran got his unstoppable 200/200 mech deathball i lose hooray i have my unstoppable 200/200 carrier deathball i win
is this a gross oversimplication? yes it is, but so is your assessment of sc2
3 points that validates the previous poster's argument and invalidates yours.
1. Maps are quite a bit larger in BW than SC2, thus reducing the inherent strength of deathballs.
2. Sure, the 200/200 BW mech army was undoubtedly a deathball, but it was only a deathball if the tanks are sieged, meaning the immobility of mech takes 3-5x the normal amount time to cross the map, where the player has to constantly lay mines, siege/resiege tanks, and make turrets. Not even comparable to all the highly mobile deathballs found with all races in SC2.
3. "Deathballs" in BW took about 3 years longer to make than in SC2. Sure, 200/200 carrier/templar/dragoon is cost effective vs. Terran mech and usually wins the game for the toss, but if the toss ever gets to that point then the Terran probably deserved to lose, save for a few very carrier-friendly maps (most games feature the toss buying time for critical carrier mass, barely surviving pre-carrier terran agression). Same concept really as to carriers in SC2; your terran opponent deserves to lose if he lets you mass up 200/200 carriers/templars/colossi.
He looked good... but let's be real. Polt/July are the old school who haven't kept up with the game. Sage is decent, but extremely overhyped because of Tastosis. Let's see him against Nestea/Mvp/jjaki/Leenok.
On December 08 2011 05:37 oxxo wrote: He looked good... but let's be real. Polt/July are the old school who haven't kept up with the game. Sage is decent, but extremely overhyped because of Tastosis. Let's see him against Nestea/Mvp/jjaki/Leenok.
You're going to eat your words in 2012 when Polt comes back in beast mode.
Also, I'm not sure how qualified your opinion is when it comes to the GSL, seeing as you can't even spell either finalist's name correctly.
On December 07 2011 05:14 Zinjil wrote: I feel like fin has a different mindset than most of the other BW pros that have switched over so far, in that he's taking sc2 as seriously as possible and fully applying himself to the game. His peak skill level in brood war was in 2008, when he won his MSL, around the same time July won his golden mouse, but the difference between their levels of motivation is palpable. Fruitdealer won a GSL and has been resting on his laurels since then, nada's attention is being shared between starcraft, school, and his new business venture, and boxer has admitted that the only time he's truly felt the same level of motivation to succeed as in sc1 is in front of foreign crowds. His name change away from ForGG seems to have meant something more to fin, and he is effectively a brand new player with the skillset and knowledge of a champion already inside of him, but the drive and ambition of a newly-recruited no-name. I'm fairly sure this mix of attributes is going to serve him extremely well.
You are off-base here, ForGG won his first title in 2008, July won his last then... big difference there. ForGG is still in his prime, age-wise, he just got complacent in BW and other new players proved to be more ambitious and skilled. In July's case, it was clear afterwards that he burnt all his bullets to obtain his golden mouse.. after that, he never was the same player and kept deteriorating.
From what I have seen of Forgg he is better than some code S players and looked worse than some. The blind BW people saying he is better than MVP apparently missed his games in the weekly.
Forgg is NOT better than MVP at this point. Hype is ridiculous on these forums.
From what I see, you are butthurt that ForGG, being an ex pro BW player, made his opponents look like bronze level noobies.
People don't even know what it means to be an A Teamer let alone a Starleaguer lol. I recommend people to watch Artosis' scforall vid and Nal_ra's oldboy series. Nal_Ra is someone who lost to Puma in the 1st round of OSL qualifiers after 3 months of practice, and Puma didn't even qualify to that OSL afterall. ForGG was someone who got into Round of 8 in the overall Korean Air OSL before retiring lol ( think he lost to the eventual champion Effort as well)
Not to mention that he was like Flash's righ-hand man in KTF who practiced with Flash 24/7, do you seriously think he'll drop games to the likes of Polt? lol.
On December 08 2011 05:51 ProxyKnoxy wrote: Is he against Nestea next? If he is that should be interesting
Code A is done for the season, He will be in Code S next season. Code A no longer plays out to a single winner, but instead to the 12 Code A players that get direct Code S seeds in the next season.
On December 08 2011 05:51 ProxyKnoxy wrote: Is he against Nestea next? If he is that should be interesting
During the post-game interview of ForGG. Forgg said Nestea said he will pick him in the next Code S groupstages jokingly lol...they're former teamates in KTF
He has had the most difficult run through code A out of everyone this season and none of the games were particularly close. He obviously hasn't had a chance to prove himself vs the tip top best, and hasn't shown a 'pure macro game', but he has done perfectly so far and has certainly blown me away with his technical builds. Sage, Polt and July are no slouches, no matter how you look at it.
On December 08 2011 05:59 Micket wrote: He has had the most difficult run through code A out of everyone this season and none of the games were particularly close. He obviously hasn't had a chance to prove himself vs the tip top best, and hasn't shown a 'pure macro game', but he has done perfectly so far and has certainly blown me away with his technical builds. Sage, Polt and July are no slouches, no matter how you look at it.
People always say players "all-in" or cheese when the loser couldn't survive the first wave of attack. Jinro has repeatedly said MC had great macro but it's just that people couldn't survive to the macro phase when they play against MC. It's the same for a D- player calling Jaedong a "2 hatch muta all-inner" after getting raped by a 2 hatch muta build by Jaedong.
Playing passive doesn't mean macro, but macroing while doing multiprong attacks+attacks and distributing resources efficiently is the true definition of macro skills.
On December 08 2011 05:59 Micket wrote: He has had the most difficult run through code A out of everyone this season and none of the games were particularly close. He obviously hasn't had a chance to prove himself vs the tip top best, and hasn't shown a 'pure macro game', but he has done perfectly so far and has certainly blown me away with his technical builds. Sage, Polt and July are no slouches, no matter how you look at it.
People always say players "all-in" or cheese when the loser couldn't survive the first wave of attack. Jinro has repeatedly said MC had great macro but it's just that people couldn't survive to the macro phase when they play against MC. It's the same for a D- player calling Jaedong a "2 hatch muta all-inner" after getting raped by a 2 hatch muta build by Jaedong.
Playing passive doesn't mean macro, but macroing while doing multiprong attacks+attacks and distributing resources efficiently is the true definition of macro skills.
I have to say I agree. Under most people's definitions, the new reaper builds in TvT are 'all in', because you make a delayed cc and you get rax, tech lab, reapers, reaper speed, fact, hellions, port and medivac all on 1 base. But in TvT, it is really hard to get the CC in the natural and defend 1 base stuff, which is why banshee expand is also not an all in. Lots of players take a tech advantage over double scv production and double mules (which often have to be scan anyway).
On December 07 2011 04:55 Grend wrote: Can't we just call him ForGG? Fin is just confusing :-)
I agree. Even when I see the brackets and see Fin, I think ForGG. He should change his name back :D. I bet he'll be picked in the last round of selections for code S next season.
Don't think anyone thinks of him as Fin rather than ForGG.
On December 07 2011 04:58 xSixGeneralHan wrote: He's been playing for over 6 months in KR top 20 gm, this isn't something insane.
Dominating competition immediately after joining the fight is actually pretty insane, but it has nothing to do with the fact that he hasn't played for as long. He's played a ton, and more than enough to be one of the best. Much longer than 6 months.
On December 08 2011 05:51 ppshchik wrote: People don't even know what it means to be an A Teamer let alone a Starleaguer lol. I recommend people to watch Artosis' scforall vid and Nal_ra's oldboy series. Nal_Ra is someone who lost to Puma in the 1st round of OSL qualifiers after 3 months of practice, and Puma didn't even qualify to that OSL afterall. ForGG was someone who got into Round of 8 in the overall Korean Air OSL before retiring lol ( think he lost to the eventual champion Effort as well)
Not to mention that he was like Flash's righ-hand man in KTF who practiced with Flash 24/7, do you seriously think he'll drop games to the likes of Polt? lol.
This is quite funny and ironic seeing as how it's common knowledge that Puma was a practice bonjwa (stupid term, really) and was a preferred practice partner of guess who..... Flash.
On December 07 2011 05:29 disciple wrote: the most natural thing for him to do, given his BW career, is to smash everyone in code S, including MVP and Nestea with some 3-0s, win the whole thing with ez and achieve nothing afterwards.
LOL DISCIPLE
I love this. <3 <3
THIS POST NEEDS MORE LOVE... but none of the SC2ers understand this reference =(
ForGG rocked the BW world many years ago by tearing through the MSL and somehow destroying Jaedong in the MSL finals with a 3-0 beatdown, and then never got even close to that level again.
On December 08 2011 05:51 ppshchik wrote: People don't even know what it means to be an A Teamer let alone a Starleaguer lol. I recommend people to watch Artosis' scforall vid and Nal_ra's oldboy series. Nal_Ra is someone who lost to Puma in the 1st round of OSL qualifiers after 3 months of practice, and Puma didn't even qualify to that OSL afterall. ForGG was someone who got into Round of 8 in the overall Korean Air OSL before retiring lol ( think he lost to the eventual champion Effort as well)
Not to mention that he was like Flash's righ-hand man in KTF who practiced with Flash 24/7, do you seriously think he'll drop games to the likes of Polt? lol.
This is quite funny and ironic seeing as how it's common knowledge that Puma was a practice bonjwa (stupid term, really) and was a preferred practice partner of guess who..... Flash.
Someone doesn't know what ironic means.. Puma is doing well for himself in SC2, but ForGG was a much better player than Puma back in BW and apparently is becoming a much better SC2 player as well.
"Hey guys thats been rts pro gaming ofr 8 years 12 hours each day beat a college student playing sc2 ( that is really inventive and really good but nowhere near the 12 hour of training guy ), another college student with godish micro that never plays the game off 2 bases and a zerg who doesn't have the apm to spread creep" Oky, im to much of an ass writing JUST that, But honestly you are giving the opponents waaaaaaaaay to much credit, Sage is the only "worthy" one, Fin has been a pro gamer for long and plays sc2 for 9 months now, that nost "already", most pro have a 5 months advantage over him and 95% of them actually trained there mechanics to be even close to his bw-formed mechanics for those 5 months, the only "decent" player mechanically wise like Nestea, MVP, MC ... etc ... guess what, they have better result and most likely play better than him. Hyping up the guy si oky, bw fanboying over him is oky, saying that he is one of the best ( and lets not forget ALREADY, it was only 9 months of sc2 and a few years of pro gaming ) is just like saying " maybe Bitbybit was actually a pro gamer...he won a gsl match, right ?"
Speaking without having seen any of his games, I'd imagine that it's not so much the style he plays as it is his decision making; BW pros (especially those in the upper tiers, such as fOrGG) make better decisions faster than just about anyone else - so it's no surprise he's retained that talent coming into SC2.
Just reading the summary of the games against Polt, it sounds like Polt should have decided to push instead of defend during fOrGG's banshee harass. That's the kind of decision that top-tier BW pros will make both consistently and incredibly fast; it seems to me that today's SC2 players tend to lack that mental agility.
On December 08 2011 05:51 ppshchik wrote: People don't even know what it means to be an A Teamer let alone a Starleaguer lol. I recommend people to watch Artosis' scforall vid and Nal_ra's oldboy series. Nal_Ra is someone who lost to Puma in the 1st round of OSL qualifiers after 3 months of practice, and Puma didn't even qualify to that OSL afterall. ForGG was someone who got into Round of 8 in the overall Korean Air OSL before retiring lol ( think he lost to the eventual champion Effort as well)
Not to mention that he was like Flash's righ-hand man in KTF who practiced with Flash 24/7, do you seriously think he'll drop games to the likes of Polt? lol.
This is quite funny and ironic seeing as how it's common knowledge that Puma was a practice bonjwa (stupid term, really) and was a preferred practice partner of guess who..... Flash.
Artosis only said Puma was one of the most requested practice partners. and he only used Flash as an example,"If one day Flash has to play a finals, his team will call Puma to practice with him." ForGG was KTF's #2 Terran and probably practiced more games with Flash than Puma.
Also according to Artosis' post he also said Really was amongst the Top 5 best Terran in the world. As good of a commentator Artosis is, you really should take his opinions about players with a grain of salt.
I agree with the people saying that we shouldn't judge him too much based on 3 bo3's.
But compared to the other players who were rising stars at some point(DRG, Puzzle, Curious, Sage), I think the one advantage that fOrGG has is his mentality. None of the aforementioned players had any success in BW, and they do not have too much experience playing on a big stage. I think that is the reason why they may seem godly at one point, and then fail miserably at a later point. fOrGG should have enough experience that nerves will not become an issue. That is why I think his chances of continual domination of GSL is higher than a guy like Curious' ever were.
On December 08 2011 07:45 BansheeDK wrote: I agree with the people saying that we shouldn't judge him too much based on 3 bo3's.
But compared to the other players who were rising stars at some point(DRG, Puzzle, Curious, Sage), I think the one advantage that fOrGG has is his mentality. None of the aforementioned players had any success in BW, and they do not have too much experience playing on a big stage. I think that is the reason why they may seem godly at one point, and then fail miserably at a later point. fOrGG should have enough experience that nerves will not become an issue. That is why I think his chances of continual domination of GSL is higher than a guy like Curious' ever were.
I dunno, I mean I can kinda understand that argument for someone like Moon. Who isn't very good, but unlike most pros, always plays his best at LANs so he still does fairly decent.
But ForGG is a different story. He's been a quiet ladder monster for months. Just like how MKP and DRG started out.
Will ForGG become the next MVP/Nestea/MC? I dunno. I can see him getting into high-tier Terran with MMA Bomber and MKP. But I wouldn't call him the second coming of Terran yet.
On December 08 2011 07:45 BansheeDK wrote: I agree with the people saying that we shouldn't judge him too much based on 3 bo3's.
But compared to the other players who were rising stars at some point(DRG, Puzzle, Curious, Sage), I think the one advantage that fOrGG has is his mentality. None of the aforementioned players had any success in BW, and they do not have too much experience playing on a big stage. I think that is the reason why they may seem godly at one point, and then fail miserably at a later point. fOrGG should have enough experience that nerves will not become an issue. That is why I think his chances of continual domination of GSL is higher than a guy like Curious' ever were.
Nerves get a second wind in SC2 though.. new game, new fans, new expectations. When you hear the likes of Boxer and Nada say they get nervous and with the immense hype behind ForGG it wouldn't suprise me at all if he ended up getting knocked out with sub-par play because he felt the pressure.
And I do know what ironic means even if I was wrong(ish) on the actual subject.
On December 08 2011 05:51 ppshchik wrote: People don't even know what it means to be an A Teamer let alone a Starleaguer lol. I recommend people to watch Artosis' scforall vid and Nal_ra's oldboy series. Nal_Ra is someone who lost to Puma in the 1st round of OSL qualifiers after 3 months of practice, and Puma didn't even qualify to that OSL afterall. ForGG was someone who got into Round of 8 in the overall Korean Air OSL before retiring lol ( think he lost to the eventual champion Effort as well)
Not to mention that he was like Flash's righ-hand man in KTF who practiced with Flash 24/7, do you seriously think he'll drop games to the likes of Polt? lol.
This is quite funny and ironic seeing as how it's common knowledge that Puma was a practice bonjwa (stupid term, really) and was a preferred practice partner of guess who..... Flash.
lmao. I liked Puma when he was in Estro's third fiddle terran but calling him some secret bonwja or even good at BW is just a joke.
there is a reason teams have practice partners, because all the other A-teamers are too busy practicing their own match up/strategies/maps that they can't practice with each other.
By definition being a practice partner means you're a level far below A-teamers and you're not even considered being sent out.
PS. Also lol @ "Artosis said" He has a worst record than Kim Carrier's curses.
On December 08 2011 05:51 ppshchik wrote: People don't even know what it means to be an A Teamer let alone a Starleaguer lol. I recommend people to watch Artosis' scforall vid and Nal_ra's oldboy series. Nal_Ra is someone who lost to Puma in the 1st round of OSL qualifiers after 3 months of practice, and Puma didn't even qualify to that OSL afterall. ForGG was someone who got into Round of 8 in the overall Korean Air OSL before retiring lol ( think he lost to the eventual champion Effort as well)
Not to mention that he was like Flash's righ-hand man in KTF who practiced with Flash 24/7, do you seriously think he'll drop games to the likes of Polt? lol.
This is quite funny and ironic seeing as how it's common knowledge that Puma was a practice bonjwa (stupid term, really) and was a preferred practice partner of guess who..... Flash.
lmao. I liked Puma when he was in Estro's third fiddle terran but calling him some secret bonwja or even good at BW is just a joke.
there is a reason teams have practice partners, because all the other A-teamers are too busy practicing their own match up/strategies/maps that they can't practice with each other.
By definition being a practice partner means you're a level far below A-teamers and you're not even considered being sent out.
PS. Also lol @ "Artosis said" He has a worst record than Kim Carrier's curses.
Actually I believe it was Flash who said that Puma was THE best practice partner around and helped him in every MSL OSL for TvT.
That being aside because Puma isn't relevant to my opinions of Forgg. Forgg is the same 1 base cheesey player he was in broodwar he just has a license for creativity in this game because terran has so many early game options. He is mechanically sound and has pretty solid micro. He may win, but he is no god among men.
On December 08 2011 05:51 ppshchik wrote: People don't even know what it means to be an A Teamer let alone a Starleaguer lol. I recommend people to watch Artosis' scforall vid and Nal_ra's oldboy series. Nal_Ra is someone who lost to Puma in the 1st round of OSL qualifiers after 3 months of practice, and Puma didn't even qualify to that OSL afterall. ForGG was someone who got into Round of 8 in the overall Korean Air OSL before retiring lol ( think he lost to the eventual champion Effort as well)
Not to mention that he was like Flash's righ-hand man in KTF who practiced with Flash 24/7, do you seriously think he'll drop games to the likes of Polt? lol.
This is quite funny and ironic seeing as how it's common knowledge that Puma was a practice bonjwa (stupid term, really) and was a preferred practice partner of guess who..... Flash.
lmao. I liked Puma when he was in Estro's third fiddle terran but calling him some secret bonwja or even good at BW is just a joke.
there is a reason teams have practice partners, because all the other A-teamers are too busy practicing their own match up/strategies/maps that they can't practice with each other.
By definition being a practice partner means you're a level far below A-teamers and you're not even considered being sent out.
PS. Also lol @ "Artosis said" He has a worst record than Kim Carrier's curses.
Actually I believe it was Flash who said that Puma was THE best practice partner around and helped him in every MSL OSL for TvT.
That being aside because Puma isn't relevant to my opinions of Forgg. Forgg is the same 1 base cheesey player he was in broodwar he just has a license for creativity in this game because terran has so many early game options. He is mechanically sound and has pretty solid micro. He may win, but he is no god among men.
Yep, you're right. Flash did praise Puma's BW skills but just said he had too much nerves to be good on the stage.
On December 07 2011 12:24 MasterBlasterCaster wrote: Also, guys, I don't want to sound nitpicky, but his macro was slipping in some of the games I saw. Not terribly, but he was definitely focusing on the micro to the exclusion of the macro (since he won, was obviously the right choice). He floated minerals a bit in both games I saw. Still, he's friggin awesome though.
Yah he had 1-2k minerals when he was playing against Polt.
I think this hype is along the lines of Stephano but Forgg has people from BW wanting him to beat everyone nonBW who will hype him like crazy. Forgg has showed some cool builds but the things he has done so far are things that other top players can do too. He has also yet to beat one of the people who have been on fire lately from any race.(OZ,MC, Hero, Nestea,Leenock, MVP, Jikaji, MMA)
From what I have seen of Forgg he is better than some code S players and looked worse than some. The blind BW people saying he is better than MVP apparently missed his games in the weekly.
Forgg is NOT better than MVP at this point. Hype is ridiculous on these forums.
give the guy a break, he is playing seriously (team house etc.) for 2 months now, he's playing the game itself or 10months now. i believe in mid 2012 he can show his true skill and i'm pretty sure he will be better than mvp
Give him a break? I'm not the one of those people saying he is already the best player in sc2. Many people have already been saying that. The opposite viewpoint needs to be voiced or the crazies will think that they are the only ones with opinions.
...nobodys saying hes the best SC2 player out there. hell, MVP and nestea aren't even considered the two absolute without a doubt best anymore. everybody's just saying that ForGG shows a helluva lot of potential and could get to the top of the SC2 world with enough training and practice
On December 08 2011 05:51 ppshchik wrote: People don't even know what it means to be an A Teamer let alone a Starleaguer lol. I recommend people to watch Artosis' scforall vid and Nal_ra's oldboy series. Nal_Ra is someone who lost to Puma in the 1st round of OSL qualifiers after 3 months of practice, and Puma didn't even qualify to that OSL afterall. ForGG was someone who got into Round of 8 in the overall Korean Air OSL before retiring lol ( think he lost to the eventual champion Effort as well)
Not to mention that he was like Flash's righ-hand man in KTF who practiced with Flash 24/7, do you seriously think he'll drop games to the likes of Polt? lol.
This is quite funny and ironic seeing as how it's common knowledge that Puma was a practice bonjwa (stupid term, really) and was a preferred practice partner of guess who..... Flash.
lmao. I liked Puma when he was in Estro's third fiddle terran but calling him some secret bonwja or even good at BW is just a joke.
there is a reason teams have practice partners, because all the other A-teamers are too busy practicing their own match up/strategies/maps that they can't practice with each other.
By definition being a practice partner means you're a level far below A-teamers and you're not even considered being sent out.
PS. Also lol @ "Artosis said" He has a worst record than Kim Carrier's curses.
Actually I believe it was Flash who said that Puma was THE best practice partner around and helped him in every MSL OSL for TvT.
That being aside because Puma isn't relevant to my opinions of Forgg. Forgg is the same 1 base cheesey player he was in broodwar he just has a license for creativity in this game because terran has so many early game options. He is mechanically sound and has pretty solid micro. He may win, but he is no god among men.
Yep, you're right. Flash did praise Puma's BW skills but just said he had too much nerves to be good on the stage.
hes looking a lot better now...<100 bpm at dreamhack when other players were at 130-140 range, so hes more relaxed under stress now i guess
On December 08 2011 05:51 ppshchik wrote: People don't even know what it means to be an A Teamer let alone a Starleaguer lol. I recommend people to watch Artosis' scforall vid and Nal_ra's oldboy series. Nal_Ra is someone who lost to Puma in the 1st round of OSL qualifiers after 3 months of practice, and Puma didn't even qualify to that OSL afterall. ForGG was someone who got into Round of 8 in the overall Korean Air OSL before retiring lol ( think he lost to the eventual champion Effort as well)
Not to mention that he was like Flash's righ-hand man in KTF who practiced with Flash 24/7, do you seriously think he'll drop games to the likes of Polt? lol.
This is quite funny and ironic seeing as how it's common knowledge that Puma was a practice bonjwa (stupid term, really) and was a preferred practice partner of guess who..... Flash.
lmao. I liked Puma when he was in Estro's third fiddle terran but calling him some secret bonwja or even good at BW is just a joke.
there is a reason teams have practice partners, because all the other A-teamers are too busy practicing their own match up/strategies/maps that they can't practice with each other.
By definition being a practice partner means you're a level far below A-teamers and you're not even considered being sent out.
PS. Also lol @ "Artosis said" He has a worst record than Kim Carrier's curses.
Actually I believe it was Flash who said that Puma was THE best practice partner around and helped him in every MSL OSL for TvT.
That being aside because Puma isn't relevant to my opinions of Forgg. Forgg is the same 1 base cheesey player he was in broodwar he just has a license for creativity in this game because terran has so many early game options. He is mechanically sound and has pretty solid micro. He may win, but he is no god among men.
Yep, you're right. Flash did praise Puma's BW skills but just said he had too much nerves to be good on the stage.
hes looking a lot better now...<100 bpm at dreamhack when other players were at 130-140 range, so hes more relaxed under stress now i guess
Don't think you can refer to the heart rate. Its better to judge how much the heart rate changed then what the heart rate is since everybody has a different heartbeat in casual conditions.
And Puma may still be not playing to his best in tournament settings. He may still be nervous but perhaps the level of play in SC2 is not high enough yet that he dosen't need his best to beat these guys.
On December 08 2011 05:51 ppshchik wrote: People don't even know what it means to be an A Teamer let alone a Starleaguer lol. I recommend people to watch Artosis' scforall vid and Nal_ra's oldboy series. Nal_Ra is someone who lost to Puma in the 1st round of OSL qualifiers after 3 months of practice, and Puma didn't even qualify to that OSL afterall. ForGG was someone who got into Round of 8 in the overall Korean Air OSL before retiring lol ( think he lost to the eventual champion Effort as well)
Not to mention that he was like Flash's righ-hand man in KTF who practiced with Flash 24/7, do you seriously think he'll drop games to the likes of Polt? lol.
This is quite funny and ironic seeing as how it's common knowledge that Puma was a practice bonjwa (stupid term, really) and was a preferred practice partner of guess who..... Flash.
lmao. I liked Puma when he was in Estro's third fiddle terran but calling him some secret bonwja or even good at BW is just a joke.
there is a reason teams have practice partners, because all the other A-teamers are too busy practicing their own match up/strategies/maps that they can't practice with each other.
By definition being a practice partner means you're a level far below A-teamers and you're not even considered being sent out.
PS. Also lol @ "Artosis said" He has a worst record than Kim Carrier's curses.
Actually I believe it was Flash who said that Puma was THE best practice partner around and helped him in every MSL OSL for TvT.
That being aside because Puma isn't relevant to my opinions of Forgg. Forgg is the same 1 base cheesey player he was in broodwar he just has a license for creativity in this game because terran has so many early game options. He is mechanically sound and has pretty solid micro. He may win, but he is no god among men.
Yep, you're right. Flash did praise Puma's BW skills but just said he had too much nerves to be good on the stage.
I've followed Flash for years and never has he mentioned Puma. (to my knowledge)
I'm pretty sure I can look through all his interviews and his name won't be there.
On December 08 2011 07:08 ppshchik wrote: Also according to Artosis' post he also said Really was amongst the Top 5 best Terran in the world. As good of a commentator Artosis is, you really should take his opinions about players with a grain of salt.
I have never been amazed at the quality of Terran play until recently. The latest GSL finals comes to mind, jjakji really showed us how Terran should be played.
But after seeing Fin (ForGG), this guy is a force of his own. My jaw has literally dropped after seeing him play recently. His technical builds and how they run so smoothly are just amazing.
No offense to July, but ForGG made it seem like July plays in wood league.
LOL at people who are wondering about Forgg's "late game". Seriously, just because no one can survive his mid game doesn't mean he doesn't have a late game, especially if you've followed him in BW. He has not in any game gone all-in. All his builds are capable of transitioning out of early-to-mid game stages. The thing is his opponents simply weren't good enough to survive into the late game.
You can see what makes ex-A-level BW pros so amazing. He could attack, harass, and macro at the same time without dropping a beat in any of those areas.
On December 08 2011 07:01 Aterons_toss wrote: "Hey guys thats been rts pro gaming ofr 8 years 12 hours each day beat a college student playing sc2 ( that is really inventive and really good but nowhere near the 12 hour of training guy ), another college student with godish micro that never plays the game off 2 bases and a zerg who doesn't have the apm to spread creep" Oky, im to much of an ass writing JUST that, But honestly you are giving the opponents waaaaaaaaay to much credit, Sage is the only "worthy" one, Fin has been a pro gamer for long and plays sc2 for 9 months now, that nost "already", most pro have a 5 months advantage over him and 95% of them actually trained there mechanics to be even close to his bw-formed mechanics for those 5 months, the only "decent" player mechanically wise like Nestea, MVP, MC ... etc ... guess what, they have better result and most likely play better than him. Hyping up the guy si oky, bw fanboying over him is oky, saying that he is one of the best ( and lets not forget ALREADY, it was only 9 months of sc2 and a few years of pro gaming ) is just like saying " maybe Bitbybit was actually a pro gamer...he won a gsl match, right ?"
So... I guess Sage is somehow better than Polt, even though Polt has won like 20x more prize money than Sage?
On December 08 2011 07:01 Aterons_toss wrote: and a zerg who doesn't have the apm to spread creep"
I guess you haven't heard the story of how julyzerg got into a progaming team ^^
I'm very sorry for the off-topic, but what's the story again? I don't remember it clearly.
I wasn't around the scene for it, but basically he played as an amateur in a fun match against a pro. He lost, but he was playing at like 400 apm. They figured, hell, if he knew what to do, he could be amazing and signed him.
On December 08 2011 07:01 Aterons_toss wrote: "Hey guys thats been rts pro gaming ofr 8 years 12 hours each day beat a college student playing sc2 ( that is really inventive and really good but nowhere near the 12 hour of training guy ), another college student with godish micro that never plays the game off 2 bases and a zerg who doesn't have the apm to spread creep" Oky, im to much of an ass writing JUST that, But honestly you are giving the opponents waaaaaaaaay to much credit, Sage is the only "worthy" one, Fin has been a pro gamer for long and plays sc2 for 9 months now, that nost "already", most pro have a 5 months advantage over him and 95% of them actually trained there mechanics to be even close to his bw-formed mechanics for those 5 months, the only "decent" player mechanically wise like Nestea, MVP, MC ... etc ... guess what, they have better result and most likely play better than him. Hyping up the guy si oky, bw fanboying over him is oky, saying that he is one of the best ( and lets not forget ALREADY, it was only 9 months of sc2 and a few years of pro gaming ) is just like saying " maybe Bitbybit was actually a pro gamer...he won a gsl match, right ?"
I wonder if a player like Flash could play both games at a competitive level. I think he would still need to spend more time on BW practice, but he's already so much better than everyone else in BW, cutting down practice-time shouldn't affect him like it would someone else. He could be the Bo Jackson of e-Sports.
On December 08 2011 05:51 ppshchik wrote: People don't even know what it means to be an A Teamer let alone a Starleaguer lol. I recommend people to watch Artosis' scforall vid and Nal_ra's oldboy series. Nal_Ra is someone who lost to Puma in the 1st round of OSL qualifiers after 3 months of practice, and Puma didn't even qualify to that OSL afterall. ForGG was someone who got into Round of 8 in the overall Korean Air OSL before retiring lol ( think he lost to the eventual champion Effort as well)
Not to mention that he was like Flash's righ-hand man in KTF who practiced with Flash 24/7, do you seriously think he'll drop games to the likes of Polt? lol.
This is quite funny and ironic seeing as how it's common knowledge that Puma was a practice bonjwa (stupid term, really) and was a preferred practice partner of guess who..... Flash.
I'm quite certain that this was incorrect and was misstated by Artosis, at least what I've been told.
On December 08 2011 05:51 ppshchik wrote: People don't even know what it means to be an A Teamer let alone a Starleaguer lol. I recommend people to watch Artosis' scforall vid and Nal_ra's oldboy series. Nal_Ra is someone who lost to Puma in the 1st round of OSL qualifiers after 3 months of practice, and Puma didn't even qualify to that OSL afterall. ForGG was someone who got into Round of 8 in the overall Korean Air OSL before retiring lol ( think he lost to the eventual champion Effort as well)
Not to mention that he was like Flash's righ-hand man in KTF who practiced with Flash 24/7, do you seriously think he'll drop games to the likes of Polt? lol.
This is quite funny and ironic seeing as how it's common knowledge that Puma was a practice bonjwa (stupid term, really) and was a preferred practice partner of guess who..... Flash.
I'm quite certain that this was incorrect and was misstated by Artosis, at least what I've been told.
Yes it is incorrect, Puma was just mentioned in an OSL/msl interview thanking a list of practice partners, and if you follow BW interviews at all, it's the most standard thing ever to list a bunch of B-teamers and practice partners after winning.
It somehow blew up into Flash secretly bows down to greatness of Puma after Artosis mis-quoted Flash in some dumb show.
Family definitely has the potential to be the best player in the world he won the Star league for crying out loud MVP never even got to the semis he'll probably win at least a GSL by the time 2012 ends.
On December 08 2011 05:51 ppshchik wrote: People don't even know what it means to be an A Teamer let alone a Starleaguer lol. I recommend people to watch Artosis' scforall vid and Nal_ra's oldboy series. Nal_Ra is someone who lost to Puma in the 1st round of OSL qualifiers after 3 months of practice, and Puma didn't even qualify to that OSL afterall. ForGG was someone who got into Round of 8 in the overall Korean Air OSL before retiring lol ( think he lost to the eventual champion Effort as well)
Not to mention that he was like Flash's righ-hand man in KTF who practiced with Flash 24/7, do you seriously think he'll drop games to the likes of Polt? lol.
This is quite funny and ironic seeing as how it's common knowledge that Puma was a practice bonjwa (stupid term, really) and was a preferred practice partner of guess who..... Flash.
lmao. I liked Puma when he was in Estro's third fiddle terran but calling him some secret bonwja or even good at BW is just a joke.
there is a reason teams have practice partners, because all the other A-teamers are too busy practicing their own match up/strategies/maps that they can't practice with each other.
By definition being a practice partner means you're a level far below A-teamers and you're not even considered being sent out.
PS. Also lol @ "Artosis said" He has a worst record than Kim Carrier's curses.
Actually I believe it was Flash who said that Puma was THE best practice partner around and helped him in every MSL OSL for TvT.
That being aside because Puma isn't relevant to my opinions of Forgg. Forgg is the same 1 base cheesey player he was in broodwar he just has a license for creativity in this game because terran has so many early game options. He is mechanically sound and has pretty solid micro. He may win, but he is no god among men.
From what I have seen of Forgg he is better than some code S players and looked worse than some. The blind BW people saying he is better than MVP apparently missed his games in the weekly.
Forgg is NOT better than MVP at this point. Hype is ridiculous on these forums.
From what I see, you are butthurt that ForGG, being an ex pro BW player, made his opponents look like bronze level noobies.
lol or i just find it ammusing/dumb that anyone can try to claim he is better than MVP before he has even played 4 GSL matches with none against the current top players
I don't understand the comparison you're making, are you implying that DRG isn't a top level player?
As a matter of fact, it turns out that everyone who predicted DRG will be a monster not only during the team leagues, but even before that, based on his stream alone - was actually right.
Just like everyone who predicted Bomber and MMA will be top players based on the play they showed very early in their career was right.
Hell, people didn't even want to see or believe that MVP was a top player until he actually won GSL for the first time, even though it was freaking obvious to everyone who watched him play in his first season.
Every single game is relevant, especially televized games. If you don't want to watch the games and the manner in which someone plays doesn't matter to you, then why are you participating in a discussion about someone's skill level in the first place?
No truer words have been spoken about the criticism of Forgg's play.
On December 08 2011 05:51 ppshchik wrote: People don't even know what it means to be an A Teamer let alone a Starleaguer lol. I recommend people to watch Artosis' scforall vid and Nal_ra's oldboy series. Nal_Ra is someone who lost to Puma in the 1st round of OSL qualifiers after 3 months of practice, and Puma didn't even qualify to that OSL afterall. ForGG was someone who got into Round of 8 in the overall Korean Air OSL before retiring lol ( think he lost to the eventual champion Effort as well)
Not to mention that he was like Flash's righ-hand man in KTF who practiced with Flash 24/7, do you seriously think he'll drop games to the likes of Polt? lol.
This is quite funny and ironic seeing as how it's common knowledge that Puma was a practice bonjwa (stupid term, really) and was a preferred practice partner of guess who..... Flash.
lmao. I liked Puma when he was in Estro's third fiddle terran but calling him some secret bonwja or even good at BW is just a joke.
there is a reason teams have practice partners, because all the other A-teamers are too busy practicing their own match up/strategies/maps that they can't practice with each other.
By definition being a practice partner means you're a level far below A-teamers and you're not even considered being sent out.
PS. Also lol @ "Artosis said" He has a worst record than Kim Carrier's curses.
Actually I believe it was Flash who said that Puma was THE best practice partner around and helped him in every MSL OSL for TvT.
That being aside because Puma isn't relevant to my opinions of Forgg. Forgg is the same 1 base cheesey player he was in broodwar he just has a license for creativity in this game because terran has so many early game options. He is mechanically sound and has pretty solid micro. He may win, but he is no god among men.
thats false. he never said that.
Artosis saying that and hyping up Puma is like, the most exaggerated hype machine in existence. It's like playing telephone where first it's practiced with puma, then favored practice partner, then secretly puma takes a bunch of games off flash in practice, then flash steals builds from puma and says puma would be 6 time OSL/MSL champion without nerve issues
It's going to be interesting to see how these "top tier" bw pros who are capable of perfect micro with perfect macro behind it are going to change the balance/metagame. Alot of things, mainly harass and multitask based, are sort of balanced by the fact that they can't be done mis-macroing or failing at something else. I imagine that as units like banshees get fully utilised, they are going to start becoming slightly ridiculous. I don't see how a bio player tvt can defend 4 banshees all microing from different directions with solid macro behind it.
On December 08 2011 05:51 ppshchik wrote: People don't even know what it means to be an A Teamer let alone a Starleaguer lol. I recommend people to watch Artosis' scforall vid and Nal_ra's oldboy series. Nal_Ra is someone who lost to Puma in the 1st round of OSL qualifiers after 3 months of practice, and Puma didn't even qualify to that OSL afterall. ForGG was someone who got into Round of 8 in the overall Korean Air OSL before retiring lol ( think he lost to the eventual champion Effort as well)
Not to mention that he was like Flash's righ-hand man in KTF who practiced with Flash 24/7, do you seriously think he'll drop games to the likes of Polt? lol.
This is quite funny and ironic seeing as how it's common knowledge that Puma was a practice bonjwa (stupid term, really) and was a preferred practice partner of guess who..... Flash.
lmao. I liked Puma when he was in Estro's third fiddle terran but calling him some secret bonwja or even good at BW is just a joke.
there is a reason teams have practice partners, because all the other A-teamers are too busy practicing their own match up/strategies/maps that they can't practice with each other.
By definition being a practice partner means you're a level far below A-teamers and you're not even considered being sent out.
PS. Also lol @ "Artosis said" He has a worst record than Kim Carrier's curses.
Actually I believe it was Flash who said that Puma was THE best practice partner around and helped him in every MSL OSL for TvT.
That being aside because Puma isn't relevant to my opinions of Forgg. Forgg is the same 1 base cheesey player he was in broodwar he just has a license for creativity in this game because terran has so many early game options. He is mechanically sound and has pretty solid micro. He may win, but he is no god among men.
thats false. he never said that.
Sounds like something Artosis would say not Flash haha.
On December 08 2011 13:15 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:
On December 08 2011 06:35 Trololol wrote:
On December 08 2011 05:51 ppshchik wrote: People don't even know what it means to be an A Teamer let alone a Starleaguer lol. I recommend people to watch Artosis' scforall vid and Nal_ra's oldboy series. Nal_Ra is someone who lost to Puma in the 1st round of OSL qualifiers after 3 months of practice, and Puma didn't even qualify to that OSL afterall. ForGG was someone who got into Round of 8 in the overall Korean Air OSL before retiring lol ( think he lost to the eventual champion Effort as well)
Not to mention that he was like Flash's righ-hand man in KTF who practiced with Flash 24/7, do you seriously think he'll drop games to the likes of Polt? lol.
This is quite funny and ironic seeing as how it's common knowledge that Puma was a practice bonjwa (stupid term, really) and was a preferred practice partner of guess who..... Flash.
I'm quite certain that this was incorrect and was misstated by Artosis, at least what I've been told.
Yes it is incorrect, Puma was just mentioned in an OSL/msl interview thanking a list of practice partners, and if you follow BW interviews at all, it's the most standard thing ever to list a bunch of B-teamers and practice partners after winning.
It somehow blew up into Flash secretly bows down to greatness of Puma after Artosis mis-quoted Flash in some dumb show.
I'm not sure it was mis-quoting as much as Artosis usual spin-oh-rama routine. It should be quite obvious to anyone by now that when Artosis determine a player to be uber-gosu it should be taken with a grain of salt.
On December 08 2011 09:08 NoobSkills wrote: Actually I believe it was Flash who said that Puma was THE best practice partner around and helped him in every MSL OSL for TvT.
That being aside because Puma isn't relevant to my opinions of Forgg. Forgg is the same 1 base cheesey player he was in broodwar he just has a license for creativity in this game because terran has so many early game options. He is mechanically sound and has pretty solid micro. He may win, but he is no god among men.
Wait.. what?
I thought ForGG was known as the mass-macro/1-a suicide player in BW?
I think the his Micro is decent but there is better around.
He missmicroed the Helions in his base vs July game2 He messed up the crisis management vs the Baneling Bust.
Actually July lost the games more than ForGG won them. How can you lose lik 5 Drones to a Bunker Rush?? zergs nowadays simply HAVE to be able to deal with it for the cost of mb 1 Drone...
On December 08 2011 09:08 NoobSkills wrote: Actually I believe it was Flash who said that Puma was THE best practice partner around and helped him in every MSL OSL for TvT.
That being aside because Puma isn't relevant to my opinions of Forgg. Forgg is the same 1 base cheesey player he was in broodwar he just has a license for creativity in this game because terran has so many early game options. He is mechanically sound and has pretty solid micro. He may win, but he is no god among men.
Wait.. what?
I thought ForGG was known as the mass-macro/1-a suicide player in BW?
so many people in this thread talkin bout BW progamers/ex-BW progamers like they know shit when they really don't x]]
july as a "zerg with no apm" was particularly funny to me. esp. when (unless im mistaken) july holds the record for highest apm ever recorded in a televised game lololol.
I will be impressed if he keeps on winning, beating a player in a slump and one thats up and down isnt fantastic. Hopefully when Fin wins Code S I will be proved wrong, but till that happens, im just as impressed with his transition as I was MVP. Hopefully any future ex BW players will actually play Protoss and not Zerg or Terran :D
On December 08 2011 09:08 NoobSkills wrote: Actually I believe it was Flash who said that Puma was THE best practice partner around and helped him in every MSL OSL for TvT.
That being aside because Puma isn't relevant to my opinions of Forgg. Forgg is the same 1 base cheesey player he was in broodwar he just has a license for creativity in this game because terran has so many early game options. He is mechanically sound and has pretty solid micro. He may win, but he is no god among men.
Wait.. what?
I thought ForGG was known as the mass-macro/1-a suicide player in BW?
well, I guess you're both wrong... ^^'
ForGG was known for his timing-attacks in BW, therefore his nickname "the timing-attacker". Timing-attacks on the level in which BW was played during that time he was quite successful, are a lot different from what SC2-players consider timing-attacks though. In SC2, pretty much any all-in is called a timing-attack, but in BW, you couldn't just go for a blind timing: The amount of preparation ForGG put in his timings were incredible - he studied his opponents playstyle, prepared solid follow-ups, alternative strategies and based his timings around scouting and knowing his opponents playstyle. If you compare ForGG with ppl doing 8-gateway-timings or 1/1/1-builds, you're obviously not getting it.
I don't know how well prepared ForGG's timings are in SC2, but with him playing Terran, being rather new to the pro-scene of SC2 and his natural talent for good timings, it absolutely makes sense that he tries to apply early pressure to his opponents.
And the fact ppl think his lategame isn't good makes me laugh: He was a top-BW-pro as Terran and therefore has the mechanics to play like 3 races simultaniously in SC2 and also a very solid understanding of moving around with a slow, tank-based army, really important for lategame TvT and also TvZ). With his solid trainings-partners and his mechanics, he inherently is always better in the lategame than most of his opponents and the reasons why he plays so aggressive have nothing to do with him not being able to play lategame.
basically any BW-pro that takes SC2 seriously will be very good at SC2, the only thing I don't agree with is that they will necessarily be better than everyone else, just cuz of the lower skill-cap for mechanics in SC2. But they will surely be good enough not to be consider 1-base-cheesers by some random noob with an incredibly accurate nickname...
Glad to see fOrGG doing so well after moving to SC2, loved that guy just because he was ever from OZ. Funny to see you praising his multitasking and ability to 'keep his resources below 400'.. You see in BW, that doesn't ever come up as a topic of discussion, like you would never hear a progamer say to another progamer, screw that, practice partners saying to each other "Hey you need to macro/multitask better at the late gaem etc.", it's way too basic a requirement to mention. They talk about very very MINUTE details and subtle micro that decided the game's outcome, the timings that were late and so on so forth. So for a BW A-teamer at time of transferring, you shouldn't expect less. Hope to see him a GSL champion soon.
On December 08 2011 13:15 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:
On December 08 2011 06:35 Trololol wrote:
On December 08 2011 05:51 ppshchik wrote: People don't even know what it means to be an A Teamer let alone a Starleaguer lol. I recommend people to watch Artosis' scforall vid and Nal_ra's oldboy series. Nal_Ra is someone who lost to Puma in the 1st round of OSL qualifiers after 3 months of practice, and Puma didn't even qualify to that OSL afterall. ForGG was someone who got into Round of 8 in the overall Korean Air OSL before retiring lol ( think he lost to the eventual champion Effort as well)
Not to mention that he was like Flash's righ-hand man in KTF who practiced with Flash 24/7, do you seriously think he'll drop games to the likes of Polt? lol.
This is quite funny and ironic seeing as how it's common knowledge that Puma was a practice bonjwa (stupid term, really) and was a preferred practice partner of guess who..... Flash.
I'm quite certain that this was incorrect and was misstated by Artosis, at least what I've been told.
Yes it is incorrect, Puma was just mentioned in an OSL/msl interview thanking a list of practice partners, and if you follow BW interviews at all, it's the most standard thing ever to list a bunch of B-teamers and practice partners after winning.
It somehow blew up into Flash secretly bows down to greatness of Puma after Artosis mis-quoted Flash in some dumb show.
I'm not sure it was mis-quoting as much as Artosis usual spin-oh-rama routine. It should be quite obvious to anyone by now that when Artosis determine a player to be uber-gosu it should be taken with a grain of salt.
Standard Artosis to hype up bad players (which only has gotten worse since his transition to SC2)
Been watching him play for the last hour, and just WOW.
I sincerely hope he's playing on an account with a "low" (he's #1 Masters in his division, but still) MMR, because he's just STOMPING everyone he plays; last two games weren't even close, both his toss and zerg opponent just rolled over and died to some very standard stuff, like hellion + banshee or a simply medivac push.
He has near-perfect early-mid game macro/micro, he just doesn't forget things, delay production rounds, or slip up even a little bit if he doesn't have to multitask at more than 2 places at once :O
Wow, just wow, just open another Terran stream and compare the differences.
Been watching him play for the last hour, and just WOW.
I sincerely hope he's playing on an account with a "low" (he's #1 Masters in his division, but still) MMR, because he's just STOMPING everyone he plays; last two games weren't even close, both his toss and zerg opponent just rolled over and died to some very standard stuff, like hellion + banshee or a simply medivac push.
He has near-perfect early-mid game macro/micro, he just doesn't forget things, delay production rounds, or slip up even a little bit if he doesn't have to multitask at more than 2 places at once :O
Wow, just wow, just open another Terran stream and compare the differences.
On December 07 2011 05:15 Enearde wrote: ForGG really impressed me even if i'm not a BW fan (i didn't watch any starcraft before sc2 came out) i have to say that he's one of a kind but what i fear is that players like him who favorize strong timings and tactical play can't really beat players like MVP. ForGG reminds me of MKP, strong pushes and micro, i feel he has a better understanding of the game than MKP and doesn't have the mental weakness of MKP neither but it's the same "kind" of playstyle. I hope he'll grow better and better and stop doing timing attacks every game (yeah, i know he's known for that^^), if not, strong players will figure out his playstyle and know how to scout what he's doing and than proceed to hardcounter it. He's kind of "new" for almost every player so... I'm not saying that he's not as good as he seems to be, he's really really strong but i just hope he'll not follow the path so many good players followed before falling into darkness.
I think being a former BW pro gives him a lot of flexibility and creativity, he's really refreshing to watch. I'm a fan already
PS: nice write up, good job OP
He beat jaedong 3x with sick macro when he won his title. He's a pretty well rounded player.
Been watching him play for the last hour, and just WOW.
I sincerely hope he's playing on an account with a "low" (he's #1 Masters in his division, but still) MMR, because he's just STOMPING everyone he plays; last two games weren't even close, both his toss and zerg opponent just rolled over and died to some very standard stuff, like hellion + banshee or a simply medivac push.
He has near-perfect early-mid game macro/micro, he just doesn't forget things, delay production rounds, or slip up even a little bit if he doesn't have to multitask at more than 2 places at once :O
Wow, just wow, just open another Terran stream and compare the differences.
he's playing idra, what do you expect lol...
That was Idra? LOLLLLLLLLLLLLL. I thought it was some no-name amateur ahahaha, first the failed ramp block, then liberal amounts of drone losses to 3 badly damaged hellions despite lings/3 queens, the complete unpreparedness for the banshees, and then the classic rage quit haha.
And... he just did it again. Just stomped another Z, was it idra? I was typing wasn't watching closely, but yah the z just rage quit after a standard timing hellion run-by.
BUT! I have a 33% chance of winning against him if I meet him on ladder! He skimps on marines worse than a greedy iloveoov, and scouts on... 16? OMOMNOMNOM, delicious all-in proxies:D
On December 07 2011 05:15 Enearde wrote: ForGG really impressed me even if i'm not a BW fan (i didn't watch any starcraft before sc2 came out) i have to say that he's one of a kind but what i fear is that players like him who favorize strong timings and tactical play can't really beat players like MVP. ForGG reminds me of MKP, strong pushes and micro, i feel he has a better understanding of the game than MKP and doesn't have the mental weakness of MKP neither but it's the same "kind" of playstyle. I hope he'll grow better and better and stop doing timing attacks every game (yeah, i know he's known for that^^), if not, strong players will figure out his playstyle and know how to scout what he's doing and than proceed to hardcounter it. He's kind of "new" for almost every player so... I'm not saying that he's not as good as he seems to be, he's really really strong but i just hope he'll not follow the path so many good players followed before falling into darkness.
I think being a former BW pro gives him a lot of flexibility and creativity, he's really refreshing to watch. I'm a fan already
PS: nice write up, good job OP
He beat jaedong 3x with sick macro when he won his title. He's a pretty well rounded player.
During a season in which the maps were unanimously declared imbalanced.
He's a timing oriented player, and while there is nothing wrong with that, his play against a more well rounded player (i.e not all micro like Polt or all aggression like July) might show his true skill.
Glad to see him doing so well! Wish he would change his name back though it's very annoying seeing fin pop up on the screen when watching GSL ^.^. Best of luck to him maybe he will win himself a championship soon.
Not sure I've seen a player mechanically control the game as well as he does. He just doesn't seem to misclick or bungle his unit control at all. Very impressive to see from first person pov.
He just slammed ogs jooktoo using the hellion banshee build even though jooktoo already knew he was doing it and prepared for it (with slightly late spores).
This guy is the real deal man. Hes not even using any special builds, just really standard builds and he is owning the heck out of everyone in the early game. Its not that hes cheesing or what, just that his opponents can't keep up with him to the mid game.
On December 08 2011 19:22 shucklesors wrote: Glad to see fOrGG doing so well after moving to SC2, loved that guy just because he was ever from OZ. Funny to see you praising his multitasking and ability to 'keep his resources below 400'.. You see in BW, that doesn't ever come up as a topic of discussion, like you would never hear a progamer say to another progamer, screw that, practice partners saying to each other "Hey you need to macro/multitask better at the late gaem etc.", it's way too basic a requirement to mention. They talk about very very MINUTE details and subtle micro that decided the game's outcome, the timings that were late and so on so forth. So for a BW A-teamer at time of transferring, you shouldn't expect less. Hope to see him a GSL champion soon.
people talk about flash's and bisu's multitasking all the time.
Ok seriously what the fuck. Does this guy ever lose? He curbs stomps even in TvT; gets hard countered opening banshees where his opponent opened with a viking, only to push into the other terran's natural 3 minutes later with marine/tank and sealing the game right there... two games in a row. He just has more shit than his opponent despite his sub-optimal openings.
Not a single zerg survives his hellions, let alone the banshee follow-up. It's the small shit he does like baiting the queen towards the bunker, then pulling marines out as the bunker died and micro'ing the shit out of them, getting additional drone kills and damaging a queen to within 1-2 hits, while also during these ~15 seconds macro'ed perfectly, that gains him both a small unit and economic advantage every time.
I think these tiny advantages compounds into a much bigger advantage, especially in the early game, which would explain why his opponents look like amateurs playing him - his timings hit a few seconds earlier and a bit harder, eventually compounding into half a minute earlier and 2x harder.
Which makes me realize an important point regarding the "mechanical" requirement of playing SC2. Sure, to play relatively well, SC2 is easier mechanically as my ~250/150 (sc2gears) APM/EAPM and C+ BW multitasking is more or less enough to have 90+ % perfect macro in the early/mid game. But having 400/250 APM/EAPM is going to turn that percentage into 95+ %, and it's clear from these games that the 5% matters a LOT - it's the difference between rolling over and dying and defending JUST in time. So there isn't even a soft skill-ceiling cap, not even in the early-mid game, because it's just not possible to play 100% perfectly and purely by being 2% faster (effectively faster, not limited to APM) you're going to stomp a lot of faces.
Which in turns makes me remember what idra predicted, can someone quote what he said originally? The gist being:
SC is a game of limited information, which is fine in BW because the skill ceiling is so much higher, so the luck factor is relatively small compared to sc2 and the better player could almost always come back despite being countered, and there are very few hard counters to anything, so situations where player A automatically loses if he made X units instead of Y are rare. However, this is a serious problem in sc2 because blizzard is trying to make the game into chess, which would be fine if the players had perfect information, but they don't. Therefore, in the near future when the average mechanics of players improve to a point where even code B players could flawlessly execute all kinds of all-ins, the scene would be more or less fucked by volatility.
On December 09 2011 12:54 MasonosaM wrote: oh god he totally destroyed hwansin game 2 with some crazy 111 play
It wasn't even like he was trying either, just a derp derp siege "look how much better at macroing I am than you" win. Like honestly, protoss players might want to look out, he could pioneer a comeback of the 1-1-1.
On December 09 2011 12:35 HardMacro wrote: Ok seriously what the fuck. Does this guy ever lose? He curbs stomps even in TvT; gets hard countered opening banshees where his opponent opened with a viking, only to push into the other terran's natural 3 minutes later with marine/tank and sealing the game right there... two games in a row. He just has more shit than his opponent despite his sub-optimal openings.
Not a single zerg survives his hellions, let alone the banshee follow-up. It's the small shit he does like baiting the queen towards the bunker, then pulling marines out as the bunker died and micro'ing the shit out of them, getting additional drone kills and damaging a queen to within 1-2 hits, while also during these ~15 seconds macro'ed perfectly, that gains him both a small unit and economic advantage every time.
I think these tiny advantages compounds into a much bigger advantage, especially in the early game, which would explain why his opponents look like amateurs playing him - his timings hit a few seconds earlier and a bit harder, eventually compounding into half a minute earlier and 2x harder.
Which makes me realize an important point regarding the "mechanical" requirement of playing SC2. Sure, to play relatively well, SC2 is easier mechanically as my ~250/150 (sc2gears) APM/EAPM and C+ BW multitasking is more or less enough to have 90+ % perfect macro in the early/mid game. But having 400/250 APM/EAPM is going to turn that percentage into 95+ %, and it's clear from these games that the 5% matters a LOT - it's the difference between rolling over and dying and defending JUST in time. So there isn't even a soft skill-ceiling cap, not even in the early-mid game, because it's just not possible to play 100% perfectly and purely by being 2% faster (effectively faster, not limited to APM) you're going to stomp a lot of faces.
Which in turns makes me remember what idra predicted, can someone quote what he said originally? The gist being:
SC is a game of limited information, which is fine in BW because the skill ceiling is so much higher, so the luck factor is relatively small compared to sc2 and the better player could almost always come back despite being countered, and there are very few hard counters to anything, so situations where player A automatically loses if he made X units instead of Y are rare. However, this is a serious problem in sc2 because blizzard is trying to make the game into chess, which would be fine if the players had perfect information, but they don't. Therefore, in the near future when the average mechanics of players improve to a point where even code B players could flawlessly execute all kinds of all-ins, the scene would be more or less fucked by volatility.
Blizzard is trying to make more defensive options (shredder, arc shield, etc) in the future, who knows the early game might be less volatile
The thing I notice most about this guy is that no matter what form or level of aggression he's putting on he's ALWAYS doing it in multiple places. The multitask is pretty insane
...he's just shitting on people so easily right now. If 5 or so more pros like him switch over they'll just dominate every tourney they go into. He's just on point with everything.
On December 09 2011 13:05 Loki57 wrote: The thing I notice most about this guy is that no matter what form or level of aggression he's putting on he's ALWAYS doing it in multiple places. The multitask is pretty insane
Yeah, his aggression is on another level from other players.
Watching Fin play and I think that his APM is not what I expected. Everything he does looks very normal for a pro, and that's pretty surprising for me. It's his sick reaction time, precise unit control, and multitasking that makes him better than other pros. Fin makes SC2 look easy, and it gives me hope for becoming a good player someday.
On December 09 2011 13:08 KevinIX wrote: Watching Fin play and I think that his APM is not what I expected. Everything he does looks very normal for a pro, and that's pretty surprising for me. It's his sick reaction time, precise unit control, and multitasking that makes him better than other pros. Fin makes SC2 look easy, and it gives me hope for becoming a good player someday.
He just seems to always know exactly what he's doing and executes it so well. It's like he's playing half asleep in a sense. Doesnt get rattled or thrown out of whack.
Yeah it's pretty obvious if you compare his stream to ANY other SC2 stream. This guy is just on a whole other level. They need to make a code S+ or something above code S just for this guy. Absolutely steam rolling everybody like they were fresh outta Bronze league.
On December 07 2011 04:55 Grend wrote: Can't we just call him ForGG? Fin is just confusing :-)
I agree. Even when I see the brackets and see Fin, I think ForGG. He should change his name back :D. I bet he'll be picked in the last round of selections for code S next season.
Or MC will pull out his suicide toss tactics and pick him only to be brutally eliminated first round and get sent back to Code A.
But yeah, he'll probably get picked later unless somebody decides to get really cocky in the group selections.
On December 09 2011 12:35 HardMacro wrote: Ok seriously what the fuck. Does this guy ever lose? He curbs stomps even in TvT; gets hard countered opening banshees where his opponent opened with a viking, only to push into the other terran's natural 3 minutes later with marine/tank and sealing the game right there... two games in a row. He just has more shit than his opponent despite his sub-optimal openings.
Not a single zerg survives his hellions, let alone the banshee follow-up. It's the small shit he does like baiting the queen towards the bunker, then pulling marines out as the bunker died and micro'ing the shit out of them, getting additional drone kills and damaging a queen to within 1-2 hits, while also during these ~15 seconds macro'ed perfectly, that gains him both a small unit and economic advantage every time.
I think these tiny advantages compounds into a much bigger advantage, especially in the early game, which would explain why his opponents look like amateurs playing him - his timings hit a few seconds earlier and a bit harder, eventually compounding into half a minute earlier and 2x harder.
Which makes me realize an important point regarding the "mechanical" requirement of playing SC2. Sure, to play relatively well, SC2 is easier mechanically as my ~250/150 (sc2gears) APM/EAPM and C+ BW multitasking is more or less enough to have 90+ % perfect macro in the early/mid game. But having 400/250 APM/EAPM is going to turn that percentage into 95+ %, and it's clear from these games that the 5% matters a LOT - it's the difference between rolling over and dying and defending JUST in time. So there isn't even a soft skill-ceiling cap, not even in the early-mid game, because it's just not possible to play 100% perfectly and purely by being 2% faster (effectively faster, not limited to APM) you're going to stomp a lot of faces.
Which in turns makes me remember what idra predicted, can someone quote what he said originally? The gist being:
SC is a game of limited information, which is fine in BW because the skill ceiling is so much higher, so the luck factor is relatively small compared to sc2 and the better player could almost always come back despite being countered, and there are very few hard counters to anything, so situations where player A automatically loses if he made X units instead of Y are rare. However, this is a serious problem in sc2 because blizzard is trying to make the game into chess, which would be fine if the players had perfect information, but they don't. Therefore, in the near future when the average mechanics of players improve to a point where even code B players could flawlessly execute all kinds of all-ins, the scene would be more or less fucked by volatility.
Blizzard is trying to make more defensive options (shredder, arc shield, etc) in the future, who knows the early game might be less volatile
If anything adding those two units/spells will make the game more volatile. The bottom tier players will be able to win even if they can't multitask like the top tier players.
On December 09 2011 13:15 poorcloud wrote: Idra finally holding off fOrGG attacks haha. I think Idra's got this game.
I was wrong. Idra rage quit while fOrGG was marching towards his base with his all-in. ROFL. I don't know but was Idra's economy in that bad of a shape?
On December 09 2011 13:15 poorcloud wrote: Idra finally holding off fOrGG attacks haha. I think Idra's got this game.
I was wrong. Idra rage quit while fOrGG was marching towards his base with his all-in. ROFL. I don't know but was Idra's economy in that bad of a shape?
Fin seems to like taking his expo really late and going for some really abusive banshee play eh? Not to say it's a bad thing, but I just found it interesting how he's one of the few Terransplayers still doing some heavy 1 base stuff and taking really late expos.
On December 09 2011 13:15 poorcloud wrote: Idra finally holding off fOrGG attacks haha. I think Idra's got this game.
I was wrong. Idra rage quit while fOrGG was marching towards his base with his all-in. ROFL. I don't know but was Idra's economy in that bad of a shape?
How was that and all in?
every attack people do before the 10minute mark is an allin. u should know that by now
On December 09 2011 13:15 poorcloud wrote: Idra finally holding off fOrGG attacks haha. I think Idra's got this game.
I was wrong. Idra rage quit while fOrGG was marching towards his base with his all-in. ROFL. I don't know but was Idra's economy in that bad of a shape?
How was that and all in?
i guess it's an all in because the opponent could "potentially" have a lot of units and overwhelm. however forgg knew what idra had, knew all the timings, and knew 99 percent he could win with that attack.
On December 09 2011 13:20 pdd wrote: Fin seems to like taking his expo really late and going for some really abusive banshee play eh? Not to say it's a bad thing, but I just found it interesting how he's one of the few Terrans still doing some heavy 1 base stuff.
He's playing a very harass oriented terran style that no one's ever seen before. Like no one does these builds because they couldn't execute it the way he does. It's like TvT really.
On December 09 2011 13:15 poorcloud wrote: Idra finally holding off fOrGG attacks haha. I think Idra's got this game.
I was wrong. Idra rage quit while fOrGG was marching towards his base with his all-in. ROFL. I don't know but was Idra's economy in that bad of a shape?
How was that and all in?
every attack people do before the 10minute mark is an allin. u should know that by now
Cause he pulled scvs + attacked with thors, a unit that you absolutely cannot retreat with? If you don't do damage with that push, your going to lose the game no problem and he sacrificed his economy for a smart push after sniping the spawning pool. I don't see whats wrong with calling a stick a stick.
On December 09 2011 13:15 poorcloud wrote: Idra finally holding off fOrGG attacks haha. I think Idra's got this game.
I was wrong. Idra rage quit while fOrGG was marching towards his base with his all-in. ROFL. I don't know but was Idra's economy in that bad of a shape?
How was that and all in?
every attack people do before the 10minute mark is an allin. u should know that by now
Every attack a terran does against a zerg is an all-in. I'm pretty sure that's how it goes..
On December 09 2011 13:22 omgbbq2 wrote: yeah...i dont think sage, polt, july played bad, forgg is just this good
I agree, I get tired of people thinking that every time someone loses it means they played poorly, If you play well but the other guy plays great you lose, that's just how it is.
Jesus, what the hell is wrong with Idra? How about using that opportunity to practice his defense against cheese? How is rage-quitting in practice going to help him when he's faced with cheese in a tournament.
On December 09 2011 13:26 DarkMatter_ wrote: Jesus, what the hell is wrong with Idra? How about using that opportunity to practice his defense against cheese? How is rage-quitting in practice going to help him when he's faced with cheese in a tournament.
yeah lemme just practice against proxy 2 rax when my pool isn't done yet sounds fun
On December 09 2011 13:08 KevinIX wrote: Watching Fin play and I think that his APM is not what I expected. Everything he does looks very normal for a pro, and that's pretty surprising for me. It's his sick reaction time, precise unit control, and multitasking that makes him better than other pros. Fin makes SC2 look easy, and it gives me hope for becoming a good player someday.
He just seems to always know exactly what he's doing and executes it so well. It's like he's playing half asleep in a sense. Doesnt get rattled or thrown out of whack.
BINGO!
That's finger memory baby - something you only acquire after monstrous practice. It's the same for music, speaking as a pianist, it's the ability to carry out tasks without even having to think about it - my fingers just "know" which keys to press on the piano, the same way my fingers just "know" to "5sd6sd7sh8sh9sh" in Broodwar (5 hatch select make drone, 6 hatch select make drone, etc.) or 4dddaaaaaaTABdd playing as Terran in SC2.
Some heavily repeated rhythmic tasks such as a macro production round, or on a higher level a sequence of tasks (multitasking certain situations) become second nature to top Broodwar players, and to a lesser extent, top SC2 players. The analogy here would be: it's easy for me to play Chopin's Revolutionary Etude almost perfectly at any time, but it's infinitely harder for someone with lesser music training to do the same - even if he/she could read music well, she would spend 10x the amount of time playing the notes at 1/10 of my quality. Similarly, something such as managing a 2 front attacks while simultaneously defending a drop and macro'ing become routine and almost "automated" for Bisu, but it's something that's overwhelmingly difficult for me - I would spend 5x the amount of the time on overlapping attacking, macro'ing, scouting and defending tasks at probably 1/5 of their efficiency.
On December 09 2011 13:26 DarkMatter_ wrote: Jesus, what the hell is wrong with Idra? How about using that opportunity to practice his defense against cheese? How is rage-quitting in practice going to help him when he's faced with cheese in a tournament.
yeah lemme just practice against proxy 2 rax when my pool isn't done yet sounds fun
Yes? It doesn't matter if winning that game was next to impossible.
There's a reason why the best players always hold on until it's absolutely 100% over.
On December 09 2011 13:26 DarkMatter_ wrote: Jesus, what the hell is wrong with Idra? How about using that opportunity to practice his defense against cheese? How is rage-quitting in practice going to help him when he's faced with cheese in a tournament.
yeah lemme just practice against proxy 2 rax when my pool isn't done yet sounds fun
Yes? It doesn't matter if winning that game was next to impossible.
There's a reason why the best players always hold on until it's absolutely 100% over.
in a tournament not a ladder game, secondly that was 100% absolutely over
I love the way ForGG(I refuse to call him Fin) plays Sc2. Its not the grab as many bases as quick as possible and sit back till max that is almost the norm. He puts on just enough pressure that its not an all in but still does damage, takes very late expansions etc. which makes a lot more interesting games with constant action instead of waiting for both players to max and engage in one big battle. <3 can't wait to see how he can do ins Code S!
First loss of the day. Cezanne probably knew what he was doing since they are teammates and prepared perfectly. I can only imagine him in a GSL game where he prepares some other abusive build that his opponent has no idea of.
On December 09 2011 13:37 Itsmedudeman wrote: That was overly aggressive. If he had just let it be and kept his units he'd have probably been in a good position.
Yup, hard to fault him for it though after watching the same overaggression easily demolish the last 10 Zergs. Really well played by Cezanne.
Reminds of that "Elephant in the room" article - so good to see that logic being proven by forGG, and he wasn't even one of the BW ro's mentioned.
forGG's play has shaken every pillar in the sc2 scene, they way he beat Polt and July was probably the most insane upset in SC2 so far, given the prior records of Polt and July in sc2.
I shudder to think when Flash, Jaedong, Bisu, etc etc start moving to SC2.
On December 09 2011 13:26 DarkMatter_ wrote: Jesus, what the hell is wrong with Idra? How about using that opportunity to practice his defense against cheese? How is rage-quitting in practice going to help him when he's faced with cheese in a tournament.
yeah lemme just practice against proxy 2 rax when my pool isn't done yet sounds fun
aaaand this is why I don't listen to the opinions of people and mods on this website
lol if people actually try to give some kind of reason otherwise
A one word twitter response means nothing, why would he trash the game and scene he's breaking into?
Yeah I think if he said yes, he would be disrespecting a lot of people and causing controversy. I don't think anyone would be bashing the sc2 that easily.
On December 09 2011 13:46 windsupernova wrote: Why do people act as if he has just switched over?
Hasn't he been playing for like a year before turning pro?
I believe he was playing under the I.D. Raptor many months ago(10 maybe?) because I recall Huk streaming and playing against him. He just recently starting playing "seriously" again back in late September coming out of retirement.
He seems to be hitting timings when the normal SC2 players seems to tech and take their 3rd. Since he has a very aggressive style as everyone has mentioned, he hits these really good timings. I think it's a good thing, it adds a lot more dynamic to the game instead of smashing 200/200 balls together. This might be the new style in the future. This would explain why Cezanne held the aggressive pushes since he remained on two bases also. Metagame because I like buzzwords
aaaand this is why I don't listen to the opinions of people and mods on this website
lol if people actually try to give some kind of reason otherwise
from midas' retirement interview: "I'm going to confess that in the off-season, I tried out StarCraft 2 and League of Legends. I was so surprised when I first played StarCraft 2. I couldn't believe that such an easy game exists. ""
what impresses me the most about fin is that he never has idle workers... watch his stream, and every so often, check if he has any idle workers, he will always have none. After telling his workers to do something, he always tells them to go back to mining afterwards. Its a small little thing, but just shows you how meticuluous of a player he is.
On December 09 2011 13:56 kofman wrote: what impresses me the most about fin is that he never has idle workers... watch his stream, and every so often, check if he has any idle workers, he will always have none. After telling his workers to do something, he always tells them to go back to mining afterwards. Its a small little thing, but just shows you how meticuluous of a player he is.
aaaand this is why I don't listen to the opinions of people and mods on this website
lol if people actually try to give some kind of reason otherwise
from midas' retirement interview: "I'm going to confess that in the off-season, I tried out StarCraft 2 and League of Legends. I was so surprised when I first played StarCraft 2. I couldn't believe that such an easy game exists. ""
well then
I'd rather take the opinion of someone who played both games professionally over someone who probably played for like a couple days or weeks at most and though it was too easy because of automine or something.
aaaand this is why I don't listen to the opinions of people and mods on this website
lol if people actually try to give some kind of reason otherwise
from midas' retirement interview: "I'm going to confess that in the off-season, I tried out StarCraft 2 and League of Legends. I was so surprised when I first played StarCraft 2. I couldn't believe that such an easy game exists. ""
well then
Didn't someone translate it better and it turned out to be nothing what you just posted?
aaaand this is why I don't listen to the opinions of people and mods on this website
lol if people actually try to give some kind of reason otherwise
from midas' retirement interview: "I'm going to confess that in the off-season, I tried out StarCraft 2 and League of Legends. I was so surprised when I first played StarCraft 2. I couldn't believe that such an easy game exists. ""
well then
I'd rather take the opinion of someone who played both games professionally over someone who probably played for like a couple days or weeks at most and though it was too easy because of automine or something.
Blizzard themselves said they purposely made an easier game. Guess that's that.
aaaand this is why I don't listen to the opinions of people and mods on this website
lol if people actually try to give some kind of reason otherwise
from midas' retirement interview: "I'm going to confess that in the off-season, I tried out StarCraft 2 and League of Legends. I was so surprised when I first played StarCraft 2. I couldn't believe that such an easy game exists. ""
well then
I'd rather take the opinion of someone who played both games professionally over someone who probably played for like a couple days or weeks at most and though it was too easy because of automine or something.
This, and these rebuttal posts are doing the exact thing I said in my original post. Lol. Comming from a player that won an MSL and beat Flash/Jaedong multiple times, its just showing that not all brood war pros are as narrow-minded on bw's superiority over sc2 as most people on here seem to think. That's all...really. People are seriously trying to elaborate on a one-worded response...chirst man.
He's been competing at a professional level for 2 months and he's already been owning a lot of the top players. Compare that with the end of his BW career where he was pretty much Flash's punching bag in the practice house, and incredibly unreliable and inconsistent in proleague. Yep, SC2 is totally not easier than BW.
On December 09 2011 14:08 DarkMatter_ wrote: He's been competing at a professional level for 2 months and he's already been owning a lot of the top players. Compare that with the end of his BW career where he was pretty much Flash's punching bag in the practice house, and incredibly unreliable and inconsistent in proleague. Yep, SC2 is totally not easier than BW.
Lets not mix in level of competition and accessibility/difficulty of game though. Yes starcraft 2 has easier mechanics.
Yes starcraft 2 has a lower level of competition compared to BW right now. However, the level of competition can increase to the point where it is as high as BW.
They are 2 separate things, lets not confuse them.
aaaand this is why I don't listen to the opinions of people and mods on this website
lol if people actually try to give some kind of reason otherwise
from midas' retirement interview: "I'm going to confess that in the off-season, I tried out StarCraft 2 and League of Legends. I was so surprised when I first played StarCraft 2. I couldn't believe that such an easy game exists. ""
well then
I'd rather take the opinion of someone who played both games professionally over someone who probably played for like a couple days or weeks at most and though it was too easy because of automine or something.
This, and these rebuttal posts are doing the exact thing I said in my original post. Lol. Comming from a player that won an MSL and beat Flash/Jaedong multiple times, its just showing that not all brood war pros are as narrow-minded on bw's superiority over sc2 as most people on here seem to think. That's all...really. People are seriously trying to elaborate on a one-worded response...chirst man.
Try playing one game of broodwar and come back posting about your experience.
On December 09 2011 14:08 DarkMatter_ wrote: He's been competing at a professional level for 2 months and he's already been owning a lot of the top players. Compare that with the end of his BW career where he was pretty much Flash's punching bag in the practice house, and incredibly unreliable and inconsistent in proleague. Yep, SC2 is totally not easier than BW.
just because the players are worse doesn't make the game easier. If all the pro bw players switched over you'd either have the same people dominating as in BW or you'd have a completely different scene because the games is *different*, not easier. Difficulty is relative according to who is playing against who, it's a competitive game.
It is still a highly competitive game that people train a lot to get better at it. Gosh grow up, if you don't like something no need to go around all day screaming that you hate it, similarly if you like something just... enjoy it, no need to bicker over crap on the internet.
This SC2 vs BW **** was cute and maaaaybe interesting at first, now you have to wonder if the people actually discussing this have anything else going on on their lives.
tl;dr enjoy your crap and stop shitting on the crap other people enjoy
It doesn't mean SC2 is easier than BW, it means that the calibre of players he's facing in SC2 is lower than in BW, which is objectively true. SC2's difficulty is different than BW's, but it's still a difficult game. This is evident by all the little mistakes even the best players right now make on a regular basis. If it was easy, these guys would be playing the game perfectly, but it's not because nobody has demonstrated truly consistent and perfect play.
The best BW players came from the largest pool of talent possible, since it had the most prestige and money. When SC2 hit, the only Koreans playing it were the leftovers who couldn't cut it in Broodwar. These players are simply less talented at RTS than the top tier Broodwar players, but they were still really good players. In SC2, where they aren't overshadowed by the superior players, so they are doing amazingly.
As much as people make fun of the performance of guys like MVP and MC in Broodwar, they would've beaten every foreigner in the world 95/100 times if they had tournaments to play against foreigners. Idra lived for 2 years in Korea playing Broodwar and was still one of the worst players on the CJ Entus B-team, and his crowning achievement was losing 1-2 in the first round of an OSL qualifier because he managed to win a game. Broodwar still has the best RTS talent in Korea, and that talent is transferable to SC2.
aaaand this is why I don't listen to the opinions of people and mods on this website
lol if people actually try to give some kind of reason otherwise
from midas' retirement interview: "I'm going to confess that in the off-season, I tried out StarCraft 2 and League of Legends. I was so surprised when I first played StarCraft 2. I couldn't believe that such an easy game exists. ""
well then
I'd rather take the opinion of someone who played both games professionally over someone who probably played for like a couple days or weeks at most and though it was too easy because of automine or something.
This, and these rebuttal posts are doing the exact thing I said in my original post. Lol. Comming from a player that won an MSL and beat Flash/Jaedong multiple times, its just showing that not all brood war pros are as narrow-minded on bw's superiority over sc2 as most people on here seem to think. That's all...really. People are seriously trying to elaborate on a one-worded response...chirst man.
Try playing one game of broodwar and come back posting about your experience.
On December 09 2011 14:08 DarkMatter_ wrote: He's been competing at a professional level for 2 months and he's already been owning a lot of the top players. Compare that with the end of his BW career where he was pretty much Flash's punching bag in the practice house, and incredibly unreliable and inconsistent in proleague. Yep, SC2 is totally not easier than BW.
just because the players are worse doesn't make the game easier. If all the pro bw players switched over you'd either have the same people dominating as in BW or you'd have a completely different scene because the games is *different*, not easier. Difficulty is relative according to who is playing against who, it's a competitive game.
And my point is that SC2 is easier than BW right now. At a competitive level, the competition is inferior to BW. At a newbie level, SC2 is more accessible and the simplified mechanics make it easier to play at a semi-competent level compared to BW. At this point in time, there is absolutely no basis upon which one can say that SC2 is equally hard as BW.
On December 09 2011 14:08 DarkMatter_ wrote: He's been competing at a professional level for 2 months and he's already been owning a lot of the top players. Compare that with the end of his BW career where he was pretty much Flash's punching bag in the practice house, and incredibly unreliable and inconsistent in proleague. Yep, SC2 is totally not easier than BW.
just because the players are worse doesn't make the game easier. If all the pro bw players switched over you'd either have the same people dominating as in BW or you'd have a completely different scene because the games is *different*, not easier. Difficulty is relative according to who is playing against who, it's a competitive game.
Well, have you tried playing Brood War? From experience I can tell you that it's pretty difficult flanking with 180 zerglings when you can only select 12 at a time, though of course it can be done. Also I assume people are talking about mechanical difficulty in which case it's no contest. In the case of "difficulty of victory" that you seem to be talking about, you obviously are correct.
On December 09 2011 14:08 DarkMatter_ wrote: He's been competing at a professional level for 2 months and he's already been owning a lot of the top players. Compare that with the end of his BW career where he was pretty much Flash's punching bag in the practice house, and incredibly unreliable and inconsistent in proleague. Yep, SC2 is totally not easier than BW.
just because the players are worse doesn't make the game easier. If all the pro bw players switched over you'd either have the same people dominating as in BW or you'd have a completely different scene because the games is *different*, not easier. Difficulty is relative according to who is playing against who, it's a competitive game.
And my point is that SC2 is easier than BW right now. At a competitive level, the competition is inferior to BW. At a newbie level, SC2 is more accessible and the simplified mechanics make it easier to play at a semi-competent level compared to BW. At this point in time, there is absolutely no basis upon which one can say that SC2 is equally hard as BW.
On December 09 2011 14:13 windsupernova wrote: SC2 is easier, so what?
People were posting a twitter response from Forgg as evidence that SC2 is supposedly just as hard as BW. In response, some of us are insisting that that's not true.
aaaand this is why I don't listen to the opinions of people and mods on this website
lol if people actually try to give some kind of reason otherwise
from midas' retirement interview: "I'm going to confess that in the off-season, I tried out StarCraft 2 and League of Legends. I was so surprised when I first played StarCraft 2. I couldn't believe that such an easy game exists. ""
well then
I'd rather take the opinion of someone who played both games professionally over someone who probably played for like a couple days or weeks at most and though it was too easy because of automine or something.
Blizzard themselves said they purposely made an easier game. Guess that's that.
Yeah they made the interface easier but what about the strategy side? Example, Nada said units like the marauder in TvT makes the matchup harder and more complex than BW TvT. So I dunno, maybe forGG feels other factors in SC2 makes the game harder overall as well; like the faster than BW game speed.
aaaand this is why I don't listen to the opinions of people and mods on this website
lol if people actually try to give some kind of reason otherwise
from midas' retirement interview: "I'm going to confess that in the off-season, I tried out StarCraft 2 and League of Legends. I was so surprised when I first played StarCraft 2. I couldn't believe that such an easy game exists. ""
well then
I'd rather take the opinion of someone who played both games professionally over someone who probably played for like a couple days or weeks at most and though it was too easy because of automine or something.
This, and these rebuttal posts are doing the exact thing I said in my original post. Lol. Comming from a player that won an MSL and beat Flash/Jaedong multiple times, its just showing that not all brood war pros are as narrow-minded on bw's superiority over sc2 as most people on here seem to think. That's all...really. People are seriously trying to elaborate on a one-worded response...chirst man.
Try playing one game of broodwar and come back posting about your experience.
Another person failing to see the original point.
Long standing broodwar pro feels like playing broodwar isn't harder then playing a game hes played for under a year? That is very surprising! But seriously, BW for the lay person is bloody hard. Maybe someone who plays it 12-14 hours a day for a long time may find it to be easier after a while.
SC2 is mechanically easier than Broodwar but it's not easier to win, because everyone benefits from that advantage.
Strategically, there are more viable units and more options, and with the spare APM not spent on Broodwar-style macro, they can do some incredible micro and multiprong attacks.
On December 09 2011 14:21 Zzoram wrote: SC2 is mechanically easier than Broodwar but it's not easier to win, because everyone benefits from that advantage.
Strategically, there are more viable units and more options, and with the spare APM not spent on Broodwar-style macro, they can do some incredible micro and multiprong attacks.
Except BW pros still showcase superior micro and army control despite the greater difficulty of BW.
Oh, and SC2 is easier to win at the moment because the competition is much weaker. This is true at both the highest level and even at newbie level.
On December 09 2011 14:21 Zzoram wrote: SC2 is mechanically easier than Broodwar but it's not easier to win, because everyone benefits from that advantage.
Strategically, there are more viable units and more options, and with the spare APM not spent on Broodwar-style macro, they can do some incredible micro and multiprong attacks.
Except BW pros still showcase superior micro and army control despite the greater difficulty of BW.
Oh, and SC2 is easier to win at the moment because the competition is much weaker. This is true at both the highest level and even at newbie level.
Example being sair/reaver. Honestly there isn't anything in SC2 that comes even CLOSE to a well executed sair/reaver build.
I don't understand why there's so much angst when BW is discussed. It was the best competitive video game of all time, and it led to SC2 which has been the catalyst from which E-Sports has exploded World Wide. Is Sc2 as good as BW? No. But BW was out for ten years so the comparison is not fair.
So what if the BW players come to dominate SC2. I don't know that they will, but I suspect they will do very well, maybe even dominate. Thats fine. I could get used to watching a whole bunch of Flash vs Jaedong in Sc2. Or Flash vs nestea. Or MVP vs Bisu. There's no downside from the fans perspective. More big names, better story lines, more competition. Sounds good to me.
The biggest thing we need to worry about is the infighting among the Korean leagues and KESPA when the switchover happens. That could be a mess. But eventually they'll get it soreted out, hopefully in a manner tha'ts good for E-Sports. And for us Fans.
On December 09 2011 14:21 Zzoram wrote: SC2 is mechanically easier than Broodwar but it's not easier to win, because everyone benefits from that advantage.
Strategically, there are more viable units and more options, and with the spare APM not spent on Broodwar-style macro, they can do some incredible micro and multiprong attacks.
Except BW pros still showcase superior micro and army control despite the greater difficulty of BW.
Oh, and SC2 is easier to win at the moment because the competition is much weaker. This is true at both the highest level and even at newbie level.
Example being sair/reaver. Honestly there isn't anything in SC2 that comes even CLOSE to a well executed sair/reaver build.
Not yet that is, BW fans need to realize, that SC2 is not done yet, not even close to close, it is only 1/3 complete, and the 2/3 is on its way, but hasnt even hit Beta yet, the new units that are coming with the expansion are going to introduce tons of very micro heavy units. Units like the Swarm Host and Viper are going to make Zerg turn into a "Macro like a beast and win" concept into "Macro like a beast but micro your units very carefully and win". Essentially, Zerg is no longer going to be micro-less once the expansion comes out.
With the new Protoss units, Protoss is also going to turn into a big multitasking fest, because alot of their new units are for harassment, so Protoss pros are really going to have to have really good multitasking to play it at the top level.
And Terran is already very micro oriented haha.
Starcraft 1 was wildly unbalanced and had extremely weak players (compared to what they have now), it wasnt until years and years later did some of the top names join the scene and for the game itself to actually gain a real competitive balance. Starcraft 2 WILL be better, and here is why.
Starcraft 2 WOL was already good, just a little bland in comparison to BW, this is due to many facts, new game, inexperienced pro players, imbalance in many factors, and lack of strategies.
Only a year after release, it is 10X the game in terms of skill ceiling and strategy, and its only 1/3 done.
After they release the expansion, they are fixing SO many of the holes that SC2WOL was facing, Zerg will become very micro heavy, Protoss will need very good multitasking, and Terran are getting some cool new things themselves, this in and of its own is going to make the game MARVELOUS in terms of skill ceiling and skill needed.
And THEN after that gets going, there will be a THIRD expansion, that will undoubtedly fix any and all remaining problems in terms of strategies and balance. And the real top dogs will have emerged by this time.
No, SC2 is not as mechanically demanding as BW, simply because...the BW interface was horribly inefficient. A player with gosu strategy and ideas would simply get mauled by a player that played like a robot but played 14 hours a day to perfect the horrible UI.
In SC2, the more savvy tactician will always prevail, because now that the interface is sleek and efficient, the smarter player will almost always beat the one with the better mechanics.
On December 09 2011 14:13 windsupernova wrote: SC2 is easier, so what?
People were posting a twitter response from Forgg as evidence that SC2 is supposedly just as hard as BW. In response, some of us are insisting that that's not true.
Warcraft 2 is harder mechanically than BW, so?
The thing is that Mechanically SC2 IS easier, no denying that. Of course I get the point that you are not playing against the UI but against another human being and that the game will be as difficult as your opponent at the moment.
Mechanicall SC2 is easier than BW, mechanically BW is easier than W2. Competitively both games have a thriving scene so in the end it doesn't really matters. Discussing on what game is harder is just a meaningless e peen contest.
I mean I like... both games(ZOMG!!!!11!!!) but seriously there is 0 point in discussing the merits of each game vs the other. BW hasn't been killed off by SC2, SC2 has not been a bomb. Both still have lots of content to give and both have their fanbase. So seriously at this point who cares? Enjoy your game and don't shit on the games other people enjoy.
You guys are not even discussing the game thing. SC2 competition is as fierce as BW competition, thats what they are arguing which is true in a sense. You guys are arguing that SC2 is easier mechanically than BW which is true.
On December 09 2011 14:08 DarkMatter_ wrote: He's been competing at a professional level for 2 months and he's already been owning a lot of the top players. Compare that with the end of his BW career where he was pretty much Flash's punching bag in the practice house, and incredibly unreliable and inconsistent in proleague. Yep, SC2 is totally not easier than BW.
just because the players are worse doesn't make the game easier. If all the pro bw players switched over you'd either have the same people dominating as in BW or you'd have a completely different scene because the games is *different*, not easier. Difficulty is relative according to who is playing against who, it's a competitive game.
And my point is that SC2 is easier than BW right now. At a competitive level, the competition is inferior to BW. At a newbie level, SC2 is more accessible and the simplified mechanics make it easier to play at a semi-competent level compared to BW. At this point in time, there is absolutely no basis upon which one can say that SC2 is equally hard as BW.
ive watched for at least 75 minutes and seen him lose 2 times and he almost never gets to a third base in all of his games. At least a fully saturated 3rd.
On December 09 2011 14:13 windsupernova wrote: SC2 is easier, so what?
People were posting a twitter response from Forgg as evidence that SC2 is supposedly just as hard as BW. In response, some of us are insisting that that's not true.
Warcraft 2 is harder mechanically than BW, so?
The thing is that Mechanically SC2 IS easier, no denying that. Of course I get the point that you are not playing against the UI but against another human being and that the game will be as difficult as your opponent at the moment.
Mechanicall SC2 is easier than BW, mechanically BW is easier than W2. Competitively both games have a thriving scene so in the end it doesn't really matters. Discussing on what game is harder is just a meaningless e peen contest.
I mean I like... both games(ZOMG!!!!11!!!) but seriously there is 0 point in discussing the merits of each game vs the other. BW hasn't been killed off by SC2, SC2 has not been a bomb. Both still have lots of content to give and both have their fanbase. So seriously at this point who cares? Enjoy your game and don't shit on the games other people enjoy.
You guys are not even discussing the game thing. SC2 competition is as fierce as BW competition, thats what they are arguing which is true in a sense. You guys are arguing that SC2 is easier mechanically than BW which is true.
It most certainly is not. That was the entire point of the elephant in the room article.
On December 09 2011 14:21 Zzoram wrote: SC2 is mechanically easier than Broodwar but it's not easier to win, because everyone benefits from that advantage.
Strategically, there are more viable units and more options, and with the spare APM not spent on Broodwar-style macro, they can do some incredible micro and multiprong attacks.
Except BW pros still showcase superior micro and army control despite the greater difficulty of BW.
Oh, and SC2 is easier to win at the moment because the competition is much weaker. This is true at both the highest level and even at newbie level.
Example being sair/reaver. Honestly there isn't anything in SC2 that comes even CLOSE to a well executed sair/reaver build.
Not yet that is, BW fans need to realize, that SC2 is not done yet, not even close to close, it is only 1/3 complete, and the 2/3 is on its way, but hasnt even hit Beta yet, the new units that are coming with the expansion are going to introduce tons of very micro heavy units. Units like the Swarm Host and Viper are going to make Zerg turn into a "Macro like a beast and win" concept into "Macro like a beast but micro your units very carefully and win". Essentially, Zerg is no longer going to be micro-less once the expansion comes out.
With the new Protoss units, Protoss is also going to turn into a big multitasking fest, because alot of their new units are for harassment, so Protoss pros are really going to have to have really good multitasking to play it at the top level.
And Terran is already very micro oriented haha.
Starcraft 1 was wildly unbalanced and had extremely weak players (compared to what they have now), it wasnt until years and years later did some of the top names join the scene and for the game itself to actually gain a real competitive balance. Starcraft 2 WILL be better, and here is why.
Starcraft 2 WOL was already good, just a little bland in comparison to BW, this is due to many facts, new game, inexperienced pro players, imbalance in many factors, and lack of strategies.
Only a year after release, it is 10X the game in terms of skill ceiling and strategy, and its only 1/3 done.
After they release the expansion, they are fixing SO many of the holes that SC2WOL was facing, Zerg will become very micro heavy, Protoss will need very good multitasking, and Terran are getting some cool new things themselves, this in and of its own is going to make the game MARVELOUS in terms of skill ceiling and skill needed.
And THEN after that gets going, there will be a THIRD expansion, that will undoubtedly fix any and all remaining problems in terms of strategies and balance. And the real top dogs will have emerged by this time.
No, SC2 is not as mechanically demanding as BW, simply because...the BW interface was horribly inefficient. A player with gosu strategy and ideas would simply get mauled by a player that played like a robot but played 14 hours a day to perfect the horrible UI.
In SC2, the more savvy tactician will always prevail, because now that the interface is sleek and efficient, the smarter player will almost always beat the one with the better mechanics.
No, the player with the superior strategy will prevail, but since you can't scout. It becomes a game of chance.
On December 09 2011 14:08 DarkMatter_ wrote: He's been competing at a professional level for 2 months and he's already been owning a lot of the top players. Compare that with the end of his BW career where he was pretty much Flash's punching bag in the practice house, and incredibly unreliable and inconsistent in proleague. Yep, SC2 is totally not easier than BW.
just because the players are worse doesn't make the game easier. If all the pro bw players switched over you'd either have the same people dominating as in BW or you'd have a completely different scene because the games is *different*, not easier. Difficulty is relative according to who is playing against who, it's a competitive game.
And my point is that SC2 is easier than BW right now. At a competitive level, the competition is inferior to BW. At a newbie level, SC2 is more accessible and the simplified mechanics make it easier to play at a semi-competent level compared to BW. At this point in time, there is absolutely no basis upon which one can say that SC2 is equally hard as BW.
everyone knows that, what is your point?
If you read some of the posts here, you'd see that not everyone knows that.
On December 09 2011 13:56 kofman wrote: what impresses me the most about fin is that he never has idle workers... watch his stream, and every so often, check if he has any idle workers, he will always have none. After telling his workers to do something, he always tells them to go back to mining afterwards. Its a small little thing, but just shows you how meticuluous of a player he is.
I do this and im not even gm.
no, i bet you don't. I'm high masters, and although I always use the shift button to make my workers go back to mining after completing buildings, theres always some idle workers. ForGG literally NEVER has idle workers. i bet you sometimes have some, especially in the lategame when you have other things to do. go watch his stream and ull see what i mean.
The question of which game is easier or not is never going to end, sadly most people will never have the realization that it actually has no consequence on either game as an e-sport.
The human brain is not a good multitasker. The more things we attempt to do and remember at the same time the frequency with which we make mistakes increase. Both Starcraft 2 and Broodwar are massively complex games, complex enough that playing either one perfectly without making mistakes is in all likeliness physically impossible. A simplification would be to say that the difficulty of a game is related to the number of possible tasks you need to perform at the same time or in a compressed space of time, tasks would be both actual input and decisions that you make. To say out loud that either game is easier I feel is not quite possible because you need to factor in a vast amount of variables into this. Macromechanically starcraft 2 is definitely easier than broodwar. There are more inputs that you need to make to macro perfectly. In terms of micro it is harder to say, races are different, overall army control is easier in sc2 due to infinite size controlgroups, on the other hand there are micro tasks like marine splitting that you did not have to do in broodwar. Starcraft 2 is while easier to control faster than broodwar. By faster I don't mean how fast the units move or how fast you need to play, I am talking about how quickly a move by your opponent will have a massive impact unless you react. Once again banelings is a good example I guess, hellion drops and just that stuff dies faster in sc2. But then there are things that are harder in broodwar etc etc.
BUT THIS IS THE IMPORTANT PART
Let us just say that Broodwar is more difficult. Let's for the sake of the argument just decide that overall, you need to perform more tasks in broodwar to play perfectly and thus the risk of making mistakes is higher. This is actually completely irrelevant though. UNLESS the game is simple enough to be played perfectly, then the actual skill roof does not have an impact on top level competition because no one can ever play either game perfectly.
The difference in difficulty will mainly have an impact on the learning curve and result in people improving faster. It is unlikely that the number of pro's and players on that level are actually different between the games but it is quite likely that the number of very skilled players but still a few levels below pro's would be higher in sc2 compared to bw.
People love to throw around words like skill ceiling like it is a holy symbol of competitive gaming. But the term is used completely wrong. If you are talking about the skill ceiling as a factor of how good you could possibly be at the game, that ceiling is higher than human capacity in both games so you can never reach it regardless. If the ceiling were low enough that you could play the game perfectly like it is with chess then that might be considered a problem but since this is not the case the entire argument is a waste of time.
On December 09 2011 14:47 IMoperator wrote: He doesn't look too impressive from his stream, he does a lot of bunker rushes or all ins on one base, not many macro games.
And he's still winning nearly all his games. What does that say about SC2?
On December 09 2011 14:47 HardMacro wrote: I apologize in advance if anyone takes offense from this, but I just had a really good laugh from watch these 2 streams side by side:
On December 09 2011 14:47 IMoperator wrote: He doesn't look too impressive from his stream, he does a lot of bunker rushes or all ins on one base, not many macro games.
And he's still winning nearly all his games. What does that say about SC2?
That all ins are strong? I haven't seen any of this "BW genius" from him. I mean, right now he is 2 rax proxying a zerg -_- It's not to say he's not good, he'd destroy me in an instant but he doesn't seem any different than any KR masters/gm that I've seen.
On December 09 2011 14:21 Zzoram wrote: SC2 is mechanically easier than Broodwar but it's not easier to win, because everyone benefits from that advantage.
Strategically, there are more viable units and more options, and with the spare APM not spent on Broodwar-style macro, they can do some incredible micro and multiprong attacks.
Except BW pros still showcase superior micro and army control despite the greater difficulty of BW.
Oh, and SC2 is easier to win at the moment because the competition is much weaker. This is true at both the highest level and even at newbie level.
Example being sair/reaver. Honestly there isn't anything in SC2 that comes even CLOSE to a well executed sair/reaver build.
Not yet that is, BW fans need to realize, that SC2 is not done yet, not even close to close, it is only 1/3 complete, and the 2/3 is on its way, but hasnt even hit Beta yet, the new units that are coming with the expansion are going to introduce tons of very micro heavy units. Units like the Swarm Host and Viper are going to make Zerg turn into a "Macro like a beast and win" concept into "Macro like a beast but micro your units very carefully and win". Essentially, Zerg is no longer going to be micro-less once the expansion comes out.
With the new Protoss units, Protoss is also going to turn into a big multitasking fest, because alot of their new units are for harassment, so Protoss pros are really going to have to have really good multitasking to play it at the top level.
And Terran is already very micro oriented haha.
Starcraft 1 was wildly unbalanced and had extremely weak players (compared to what they have now), it wasnt until years and years later did some of the top names join the scene and for the game itself to actually gain a real competitive balance. Starcraft 2 WILL be better, and here is why.
Starcraft 2 WOL was already good, just a little bland in comparison to BW, this is due to many facts, new game, inexperienced pro players, imbalance in many factors, and lack of strategies.
Only a year after release, it is 10X the game in terms of skill ceiling and strategy, and its only 1/3 done.
After they release the expansion, they are fixing SO many of the holes that SC2WOL was facing, Zerg will become very micro heavy, Protoss will need very good multitasking, and Terran are getting some cool new things themselves, this in and of its own is going to make the game MARVELOUS in terms of skill ceiling and skill needed.
And THEN after that gets going, there will be a THIRD expansion, that will undoubtedly fix any and all remaining problems in terms of strategies and balance. And the real top dogs will have emerged by this time.
No, SC2 is not as mechanically demanding as BW, simply because...the BW interface was horribly inefficient. A player with gosu strategy and ideas would simply get mauled by a player that played like a robot but played 14 hours a day to perfect the horrible UI.
In SC2, the more savvy tactician will always prevail, because now that the interface is sleek and efficient, the smarter player will almost always beat the one with the better mechanics.
If there was a like button, I would hit it.
I totally agree with this post, in sc2 right now.it is fully not explored, we are not even there yet. Strageties can now be much easily executed but that also means that you can really put a lot of imagination into your play without it being stopped as easily with a person who has pure solid mechanocs.
I'm not surprised at all that his BW success has transferred over. fOrGG was definitely on the verge of S-Class when he was playing well in brood war. He always had amazing macro and an impeccable sense of timing. The highest level BW players have incredible work ethics and manual dexterity and the point has been made over and over again but when a super high level player ala Flash or Jaedong or Bisu goes over to SC2 expect them to really start dominating people.
Is he living up to his time attacker nickname in SC2? I don't actually watch SC2 so I'm just curious how his style has changed from game to game.
On December 09 2011 14:47 IMoperator wrote: He doesn't look too impressive from his stream, he does a lot of bunker rushes or all ins on one base, not many macro games.
And he's still winning nearly all his games. What does that say about SC2?
That all ins are strong? I haven't seen any of this "BW genius" from him. I mean, right now he is 2 rax proxying a zerg -_- It's not to say he's not good, he'd destroy me in an instant but he doesn't seem any different than any KR masters/gm that I've seen.
Maybe hes just trying new strats on ladder? I don't think he'll be broadcasting his standard strategies to the whole world.
On December 09 2011 14:47 VanGarde wrote: The question of which game is easier or not is never going to end, sadly most people will never have the realization that it actually has no consequence on either game as an e-sport.
The human brain is not a good multitasker. The more things we attempt to do and remember at the same time the frequency with which we make mistakes increase. Both Starcraft 2 and Broodwar are massively complex games, complex enough that playing either one perfectly without making mistakes is in all likeliness physically impossible. A simplification would be to say that the difficulty of a game is related to the number of possible tasks you need to perform at the same time or in a compressed space of time, tasks would be both actual input and decisions that you make. To say out loud that either game is easier I feel is not quite possible because you need to factor in a vast amount of variables into this. Macromechanically starcraft 2 is definitely easier than broodwar. There are more inputs that you need to make to macro perfectly. In terms of micro it is harder to say, races are different, overall army control is easier in sc2 due to infinite size controlgroups, on the other hand there are micro tasks like marine splitting that you did not have to do in broodwar. Starcraft 2 is while easier to control faster than broodwar. By faster I don't mean how fast the units move or how fast you need to play, I am talking about how quickly a move by your opponent will have a massive impact unless you react. Once again banelings is a good example I guess, hellion drops and just that stuff dies faster in sc2. But then there are things that are harder in broodwar etc etc.
BUT THIS IS THE IMPORTANT PART
Let us just say that Broodwar is more difficult. Let's for the sake of the argument just decide that overall, you need to perform more tasks in broodwar to play perfectly and thus the risk of making mistakes is higher. This is actually completely irrelevant though. UNLESS the game is simple enough to be played perfectly, then the actual skill roof does not have an impact on top level competition because no one can ever play either game perfectly.
The difference in difficulty will mainly have an impact on the learning curve and result in people improving faster. It is unlikely that the number of pro's and players on that level are actually different between the games but it is quite likely that the number of very skilled players but still a few levels below pro's would be higher in sc2 compared to bw.
People love to throw around words like skill ceiling like it is a holy symbol of competitive gaming. But the term is used completely wrong. If you are talking about the skill ceiling as a factor of how good you could possibly be at the game, that ceiling is higher than human capacity in both games so you can never reach it regardless. If the ceiling were low enough that you could play the game perfectly like it is with chess then that might be considered a problem but since this is not the case the entire argument is a waste of time.
Damn, while I don't agree in that marine splitting was not needed in BW(it was) I completely agree with the overall message of your post. But oh well, thats why I find discussing which game is easier a waste of time.
On December 09 2011 14:13 windsupernova wrote: SC2 is easier, so what?
People were posting a twitter response from Forgg as evidence that SC2 is supposedly just as hard as BW. In response, some of us are insisting that that's not true.
Warcraft 2 is harder mechanically than BW, so?
The thing is that Mechanically SC2 IS easier, no denying that. Of course I get the point that you are not playing against the UI but against another human being and that the game will be as difficult as your opponent at the moment.
Mechanicall SC2 is easier than BW, mechanically BW is easier than W2. Competitively both games have a thriving scene so in the end it doesn't really matters. Discussing on what game is harder is just a meaningless e peen contest.
I mean I like... both games(ZOMG!!!!11!!!) but seriously there is 0 point in discussing the merits of each game vs the other. BW hasn't been killed off by SC2, SC2 has not been a bomb. Both still have lots of content to give and both have their fanbase. So seriously at this point who cares? Enjoy your game and don't shit on the games other people enjoy.
You guys are not even discussing the game thing. SC2 competition is as fierce as BW competition, thats what they are arguing which is true in a sense. You guys are arguing that SC2 is easier mechanically than BW which is true.
This has been said before but there is a balance to achieve for (mechanics and strategy). IMO BW has a decent balance of mechanics vs strategy.
Let us just say that Broodwar is more difficult. Let's for the sake of the argument just decide that overall, you need to perform more tasks in broodwar to play perfectly and thus the risk of making mistakes is higher. This is actually completely irrelevant though.
I discussed this before but what one should look for is the "skill floor". (Skill floor is the "skill" needed before any higher "skill" gets diminishing returns. Lets translate this to APM [Yes I know APM is not a great example but for this example lets pretend it is] - Skill floor is this - Once you have 200 APM, any higher APM won't help as much as it helped from going from 1-200 APM. In this example if everyone reaches the skill floor then that means better players won't have as much as an advantage over anyone with 200+ APM since they hit the skill floor.)
Basically the major difference between BW and SC2 is that the gap between the pros and the average folk is bigger in BW than is in SC2.
Which is good (IMO) - You reduce the times where "worse" players defeat the "better" players.
(Take note it is in quotes. By worse and better I mean mechanically - whether you think mechanics should be more focused on in RTS vs strategy is a different matter though.)
Of course which one is more important, mechanics or strategy, is debatable.
In terms of RTS I personally feel BW had a good balance of both mechanics and strategy. In WC2 it was focused way more on mechanics than strategy (compared to BW, especially considering it practically only had 1 race as opposed to 3 in BW).
On December 09 2011 14:47 IMoperator wrote: He doesn't look too impressive from his stream, he does a lot of bunker rushes or all ins on one base, not many macro games.
And he's still winning nearly all his games. What does that say about SC2?
That all ins are strong? I haven't seen any of this "BW genius" from him. I mean, right now he is 2 rax proxying a zerg -_- It's not to say he's not good, he'd destroy me in an instant but he doesn't seem any different than any KR masters/gm that I've seen.
At this point I don't think he even cares if he wins or loses. He already has a Top 10 account on KR ladder, he's just adding another one to the list. His gameplay is pretty cheesy and sorta all-in'ish, and I don't mind. I would like to see him draw it out to long macro games and just see him use his endless aggression and harassment there to dissect an opponent.
On December 09 2011 14:47 IMoperator wrote: He doesn't look too impressive from his stream, he does a lot of bunker rushes or all ins on one base, not many macro games.
And he's still winning nearly all his games. What does that say about SC2?
That all ins are strong? I haven't seen any of this "BW genius" from him. I mean, right now he is 2 rax proxying a zerg -_- It's not to say he's not good, he'd destroy me in an instant but he doesn't seem any different than any KR masters/gm that I've seen.
At this point I don't think he even cares if he wins or loses. He already has a Top 10 account on KR ladder, he's just adding another one to the list. His gameplay is pretty cheesy and sorta all-in'ish, and I don't mind. I would like to see him draw it out to long macro games and just see him use his endless aggression and harassment there to dissect an opponent.
Yeah, this is basically what I was trying to say. I haven't seen a game from him go past 2 base lol, I just want to see if he's all that he's made out to be. So far I've just seen various banshee/hellion rushes into thor all ins or proxy raxes or 111 all in.
On December 09 2011 14:47 IMoperator wrote: He doesn't look too impressive from his stream, he does a lot of bunker rushes or all ins on one base, not many macro games.
And he's still winning nearly all his games. What does that say about SC2?
That all ins are strong? I haven't seen any of this "BW genius" from him. I mean, right now he is 2 rax proxying a zerg -_- It's not to say he's not good, he'd destroy me in an instant but he doesn't seem any different than any KR masters/gm that I've seen.
At this point I don't think he even cares if he wins or loses. He already has a Top 10 account on KR ladder, he's just adding another one to the list. His gameplay is pretty cheesy and sorta all-in'ish, and I don't mind. I would like to see him draw it out to long macro games and just see him use his endless aggression and harassment there to dissect an opponent.
I honestly get the feeling he's partially trolling at this point lol. Just proxying every game like it's his birthday
edit: @ poster above me, he had a 4 base game vs hwangsin, tvp. Seems like he was playing macro games earlier, and now he's simply being a fool haha
On December 09 2011 14:53 DoctorHelvetica wrote: I'm not surprised at all that his BW success has transferred over. fOrGG was definitely on the verge of S-Class when he was playing well in brood war. He always had amazing macro and an impeccable sense of timing. The highest level BW players have incredible work ethics and manual dexterity and the point has been made over and over again but when a super high level player ala Flash or Jaedong or Bisu goes over to SC2 expect them to really start dominating people.
Is he living up to his time attacker nickname in SC2? I don't actually watch SC2 so I'm just curious how his style has changed from game to game.
I'd say he's living up to it as much as the game allows right now. Sc2 doesn't yet have as elaborate midgame timing attacks as BW, right now ForGG plays an ultraagressive style with constant harass, followed up by a strong push that usually wins him the game.
edit: Also, his play is more coherent than we're used to seeing in Sc2, he always seems to have very specific game plans in mind and everything he does with his units is according to that plan. Very cool to see.
On December 09 2011 14:47 IMoperator wrote: He doesn't look too impressive from his stream, he does a lot of bunker rushes or all ins on one base, not many macro games.
And he's still winning nearly all his games. What does that say about SC2?
That all ins are strong? I haven't seen any of this "BW genius" from him. I mean, right now he is 2 rax proxying a zerg -_- It's not to say he's not good, he'd destroy me in an instant but he doesn't seem any different than any KR masters/gm that I've seen.
At this point I don't think he even cares if he wins or loses. He already has a Top 10 account on KR ladder, he's just adding another one to the list. His gameplay is pretty cheesy and sorta all-in'ish, and I don't mind. I would like to see him draw it out to long macro games and just see him use his endless aggression and harassment there to dissect an opponent.
Yeah, this is basically what I was trying to say. I haven't seen a game from him go past 2 base lol, I just want to see if he's all that he's made out to be. So far I've just seen various banshee/hellion rushes into thor all ins or proxy raxes or 111 all in.
He had a really good sorta lengthy macro game vs. Hwangsin on shattered temple on his stream earlier. It was quite entertaining since Hwangsin had sick Colussus drop micro. But ForGG was for the most part relentless doing drops to take out stuff like cyber core, robo bay, etc and pushing with his main force. It may sound fairly standard, but watching it, both players really made it look good.
On December 09 2011 14:47 IMoperator wrote: He doesn't look too impressive from his stream, he does a lot of bunker rushes or all ins on one base, not many macro games.
And he's still winning nearly all his games. What does that say about SC2?
That all ins are strong? I haven't seen any of this "BW genius" from him. I mean, right now he is 2 rax proxying a zerg -_- It's not to say he's not good, he'd destroy me in an instant but he doesn't seem any different than any KR masters/gm that I've seen.
At this point I don't think he even cares if he wins or loses. He already has a Top 10 account on KR ladder, he's just adding another one to the list. His gameplay is pretty cheesy and sorta all-in'ish, and I don't mind. I would like to see him draw it out to long macro games and just see him use his endless aggression and harassment there to dissect an opponent.
Yeah, this is basically what I was trying to say. I haven't seen a game from him go past 2 base lol, I just want to see if he's all that he's made out to be. So far I've just seen various banshee/hellion rushes into thor all ins or proxy raxes or 111 all in.
He had a really good sorta lengthy macro game vs. Hwangsin on shattered temple on his stream earlier. It was quite entertaining since Hwangsin had sick Colussus drop micro. But ForGG was for the most part relentless doing drops to take out stuff like cyber core, robo bay, etc and pushing with his main force. It may sound fairly standard, but watching it, both players really made it look good.
Gah, stream's done looks like I missed all the good parts.
I think ladder is where Korean Pros wanna practice specific build and timing rather than showing off their true skill. I mean he basically went for banshee in every single TvT and TvZ, also hellions into cloaked banshee like vs July against Zerg.
He was basically practicing 1 or 2 specific builds in each matchup. Pros do this to test out how well it works against other people outside your team who will basically know it's coming.
I actually can't believe people are questioning his macro capabilities. It's not difficult to manage 4+ bases in SC2. The guy played BW at the highest level, managing 2 bases is like managing 5. His mechanics were amazing and so was his multitasking. He'd have no trouble in the late game.
Fin stands for fucking incredible nerchills. This guy (lets just call him forGG it's easier for the BW guys) is fucking scary good. Maybe maybe not MVP/Nestea level (fuck if I know how it will go) but still really fucking good.
On December 09 2011 14:47 HardMacro wrote: I apologize in advance if anyone takes offense from this, but I just had a really good laugh from watch these 2 streams side by side:
What was the point of this? You enjoy being a dick just because? Why not compare it to 90% of the people streaming and say the exact same thing? Incontrol is a really nice guy and your post is just a stupid troll attempt. Geoff would probably make you look pretty bad too so yah... I guess being tough on the internet is really easy? Gj
It's scary how good Fin looked in some of his GSL games, it's like he's been practicing SC2 for longer than the current pros are, he looks very polished. Only complaint is he changed his name, forGG was so good! xD
On December 09 2011 17:07 Heff87 wrote: It's scary how good Fin looked in some of his GSL games, it's like he's been practicing SC2 for longer than the current pros are, he looks very polished. Only complaint is he changed his name, forGG was so good! xD
You can really see the difference in forGG's gameplay... he really does seem to be a level above most other players.
Specifically, his micro... he's microing units better than anyone. Many terrans simply learn to split his marines for when banelings are coming, but ignore micro the rest of the time... but forGG is constantly microing units. If he's facing any hellions he'll spread units out a little bit, even non-light ones, to avoid AOE. He'll use the pickup-and-drop method with his medivac even if it'll only allow him to get one or two extra shots off.
He really does all the little things right that almost no one else is doing consistently. And his crisis management is among the best I've seen.
I'm waiting to see what kind of comeback potential he has, but no one has managed to get ahead of him in a game yet.
On December 09 2011 17:07 Heff87 wrote: It's scary how good Fin looked in some of his GSL games, it's like he's been practicing SC2 for longer than the current pros are, he looks very polished. Only complaint is he changed his name, forGG was so good! xD
fOrGG, not forGG
And yes, he is amazing
You seriously nitpicking what is capitalized? :/
A lot of BW progamers have weird capitals in their names. Too tedious to type out or even remember.
On December 09 2011 18:14 Chocobo wrote: You can really see the difference in forGG's gameplay... he really does seem to be a level above most other players.
Specifically, his micro... he's microing units better than anyone. Many terrans simply learn to split his marines for when banelings are coming, but ignore micro the rest of the time... but forGG is constantly microing units. If he's facing any hellions he'll spread units out a little bit, even non-light ones, to avoid AOE. He'll use the pickup-and-drop method with his medivac even if it'll only allow him to get one or two extra shots off.
He really does all the little things right that almost no one else is doing consistently. And his crisis management is among the best I've seen.
I'm waiting to see what kind of comeback potential he has, but no one has managed to get ahead of him in a game yet.
uhh pretty sure other players split against all forms of aoe when possible... and from the four games I saw him play the one time he was in any sort of crisis he handled it quite poorly(July getting lings and such into his base) He lost a lot there and made it at least feasible July would win.
On December 09 2011 14:53 DoctorHelvetica wrote: I'm not surprised at all that his BW success has transferred over. fOrGG was definitely on the verge of S-Class when he was playing well in brood war. He always had amazing macro and an impeccable sense of timing. The highest level BW players have incredible work ethics and manual dexterity and the point has been made over and over again but when a super high level player ala Flash or Jaedong or Bisu goes over to SC2 expect them to really start dominating people.
Is he living up to his time attacker nickname in SC2? I don't actually watch SC2 so I'm just curious how his style has changed from game to game.
I'd say he's living up to it as much as the game allows right now. Sc2 doesn't yet have as elaborate midgame timing attacks as BW, right now ForGG plays an ultraagressive style with constant harass, followed up by a strong push that usually wins him the game.
edit: Also, his play is more coherent than we're used to seeing in Sc2, he always seems to have very specific game plans in mind and everything he does with his units is according to that plan. Very cool to see.
well constant harras is 1 way to make your macro shine through. if you can keep making everything you need to make while theres fighting, and the other guy cant, you can just get a lot of free wins that way.
idra could learn a lot from this guy :D and no idra dropping your entire army in his base then remaking it because its only roaches isnt "stretching his multitasking" :D
On December 09 2011 14:53 DoctorHelvetica wrote: I'm not surprised at all that his BW success has transferred over. fOrGG was definitely on the verge of S-Class when he was playing well in brood war. He always had amazing macro and an impeccable sense of timing. The highest level BW players have incredible work ethics and manual dexterity and the point has been made over and over again but when a super high level player ala Flash or Jaedong or Bisu goes over to SC2 expect them to really start dominating people.
Is he living up to his time attacker nickname in SC2? I don't actually watch SC2 so I'm just curious how his style has changed from game to game.
I'd say he's living up to it as much as the game allows right now. Sc2 doesn't yet have as elaborate midgame timing attacks as BW, right now ForGG plays an ultraagressive style with constant harass, followed up by a strong push that usually wins him the game.
edit: Also, his play is more coherent than we're used to seeing in Sc2, he always seems to have very specific game plans in mind and everything he does with his units is according to that plan. Very cool to see.
well constant harras is 1 way to make your macro shine through. if you can keep making everything you need to make while theres fighting, and the other guy cant, you can just get a lot of free wins that way.
idra could learn a lot from this guy :D and no idra dropping your entire army in his base then remaking it because its only roaches isnt "stretching his multitasking" :D
you realize zerg has less ways to harass that are effective. Explain how you harass while macroing as a zerg with anything other than zerglings or hidden banes until you get mutas? I don't think harassing is the weakpoint in Idra's game. If he had banshees or reapers I'm sure he would use them sometimes too.
On December 09 2011 14:53 DoctorHelvetica wrote: I'm not surprised at all that his BW success has transferred over. fOrGG was definitely on the verge of S-Class when he was playing well in brood war. He always had amazing macro and an impeccable sense of timing. The highest level BW players have incredible work ethics and manual dexterity and the point has been made over and over again but when a super high level player ala Flash or Jaedong or Bisu goes over to SC2 expect them to really start dominating people.
Is he living up to his time attacker nickname in SC2? I don't actually watch SC2 so I'm just curious how his style has changed from game to game.
I'd say he's living up to it as much as the game allows right now. Sc2 doesn't yet have as elaborate midgame timing attacks as BW, right now ForGG plays an ultraagressive style with constant harass, followed up by a strong push that usually wins him the game.
edit: Also, his play is more coherent than we're used to seeing in Sc2, he always seems to have very specific game plans in mind and everything he does with his units is according to that plan. Very cool to see.
well constant harras is 1 way to make your macro shine through. if you can keep making everything you need to make while theres fighting, and the other guy cant, you can just get a lot of free wins that way.
idra could learn a lot from this guy :D and no idra dropping your entire army in his base then remaking it because its only roaches isnt "stretching his multitasking" :D
you realize zerg has less ways to harass that are effective. Explain how you harass while macroing as a zerg with anything other than zerglings or hidden banes until you get mutas? I don't think harassing is the weakpoint in Idra's game. If he had banshees or reapers I'm sure he would use them sometimes too.
This is basically true for Protoss as well. It's why I like the design of the Terran units better that both Zerg and Protoss. (I am not saying it's unbalanced though, the last winrate-graph showed the different races quite close).
Has any replays of fOrGG been released? Would love to watch / study his play but I'm stuck on limited crappy mobile broadband so I've got no ability to watch vods / streams.
What fin did, at least in his games where he didn't open with a cheese, was play an aggressive macro style. Fin is one of the few players I have ever seen force his opponent to make mistakes without going all in.
Bomber being one of them.
But very nice read! I'm actually re watching his GSL vods because of this post
The crazy thing about this is that fOrGG's biggest accomplishment since his single Brood War tournament win in 2008 was to get a Ro8 in the OSL. That's pretty impressive, but he is by no means a player who was tearing up the Brood War scene recently. It would be really exciting if guys like Flash, Jaedong, Bisu, Jangbi, Fantasy or any of the other tip-top level players switched.
There are some epic players in Starcraft 2 right now, but hopefully fOrGG's performance will encourage a lot of the more "meh" players to step up their game a little bit.
On December 09 2011 14:53 DoctorHelvetica wrote: I'm not surprised at all that his BW success has transferred over. fOrGG was definitely on the verge of S-Class when he was playing well in brood war. He always had amazing macro and an impeccable sense of timing. The highest level BW players have incredible work ethics and manual dexterity and the point has been made over and over again but when a super high level player ala Flash or Jaedong or Bisu goes over to SC2 expect them to really start dominating people.
Is he living up to his time attacker nickname in SC2? I don't actually watch SC2 so I'm just curious how his style has changed from game to game.
I'd say he's living up to it as much as the game allows right now. Sc2 doesn't yet have as elaborate midgame timing attacks as BW, right now ForGG plays an ultraagressive style with constant harass, followed up by a strong push that usually wins him the game.
edit: Also, his play is more coherent than we're used to seeing in Sc2, he always seems to have very specific game plans in mind and everything he does with his units is according to that plan. Very cool to see.
well constant harras is 1 way to make your macro shine through. if you can keep making everything you need to make while theres fighting, and the other guy cant, you can just get a lot of free wins that way.
idra could learn a lot from this guy :D and no idra dropping your entire army in his base then remaking it because its only roaches isnt "stretching his multitasking" :D
you realize zerg has less ways to harass that are effective. Explain how you harass while macroing as a zerg with anything other than zerglings or hidden banes until you get mutas? I don't think harassing is the weakpoint in Idra's game. If he had banshees or reapers I'm sure he would use them sometimes too.
This is basically true for Protoss as well. It's why I like the design of the Terran units better that both Zerg and Protoss. (I am not saying it's unbalanced though, the last winrate-graph showed the different races quite close).
Yah I play toss and I feel the same way I think it was Dustin Browder who basically said Terran felt complete and the other two still needed work.
I'm a starcraft 2 player and have only played brood war for a limited amount of time (enough to fully understand the game anyway). I'm no brood war fan and am a great defender of sc2's -still very volatile and criticizable- scene. However, you guys should understand that the relatively recent BW scene (from 08 up to right now) is the most ridiculously skilled thing that esport's ever known. And evidence of 'current' BW players' superiority is there already : MVP and Bomber weren't even A-teamers on BW (specially not Bomber) and are mechanically way ahead of everyone, Nestea was a freaking team player and has arguably acquired the best understanding of sc2's metagame yet, etc ...
My point is : saying that ForGG, former A-teamer, who 3-0'ed Jaedong (?!), won an MSL title not so long ago and was endlessly better than MVP (most prominent example) on BW is going to win the next few GSLs is no overhype, it's quite a logical statement. I hope sc2-born players manage to prove me wrong (so that the game gains more credibility in Korea) but I'm afraid it simply won't happen. And I would argue that sc2's going to reveal itself only when top BW players switch (or homegrown talents develop, which is gonna take about 5years longer) and teach everyone what multitasking really is.
I assume you wanted to say not enough to fully understand the game? At least I hope so. And MVP most definitely was an a-teamer. fOrGG was way better than MVP at his peak and probably better at the time MVP switched, but endlessly is an overstatement.
Well so far, it seems like forgg's mechanics are better than MVP's. He plays the game like brood war rather than sc2. Unfortunately, I've only gotten to see MVP play once, but forgg is one of the fastest and most precise players I've ever seen play the game, and it really shed the game in a new light for me. However, MVP is MVP and his strongest aspect is his decision making and strategy, and his multitasking is also really good, and probably around the same level as forgg's.
No, I really meant 'fully understand'. I did indeed exagerate though, MVP was an A-teamer, only really not amongst the best ones. as for the 'endlessly', it's called an hyperbole.
Again I'm just giving my opinion, my apologies if you find it flawed.
forgg is one of the fastest and most precise players I've ever seen
Couldn't agree more. I never watched Brood War but when you watch this guys stream don't just look at the strats he is performing, look at the sheer underlying mechanics he has - I watch alot of players streams and this guy seems to be doing stuff twice as fast as most of the top foreign pro's and even faster than some of the other really good Koreans who stream. Very impressive.
On December 09 2011 20:31 FATJESUSONABIKE wrote: I'm a starcraft 2 player and have only played brood war for a limited amount of time (enough to fully understand the game anyway). I'm no brood war fan and am a great defender of sc2's -still very volatile and criticizable- scene. However, you guys should understand that the relatively recent BW scene (from 08 up to right now) is the most ridiculously skilled thing that esport's ever known. And evidence of 'current' BW players' superiority is there already : MVP and Bomber weren't even A-teamers on BW (specially not Bomber) and are mechanically way ahead of everyone, Nestea was a freaking team player and has arguably acquired the best understanding of sc2's metagame yet, etc ...
My point is : saying that ForGG, former A-teamer, who 3-0'ed Jaedong (?!), won an MSL title not so long ago and was endlessly better than MVP (most prominent example) on BW is going to win the next few GSLs is no overhype, it's quite a logical statement. I hope sc2-born players manage to prove me wrong (so that the game gains more credibility in Korea) but I'm afraid it simply won't happen. And I would argue that sc2's going to reveal itself only when top BW players switch (or homegrown talents develop, which is gonna take about 5years longer) and teach everyone what multitasking really is.
This is my opinion and my opinion only.
MVP was an A-teamer. He has improved a LOT in SC2, we can't say he wouldn't get better in BW too. Nestea is a special case IMO, he's not mechanically better than everyone but he wins because of his specifically tailored to the opponent build. And we have talent emerging directly into SC2. Look at leenock, jjakji and taeja for example. They are way too young to have played BW for long. One is a GSL champion, one is a GSL runner up, one is a very good player who I believe will still break through in the GSL.
Another point you forgot to consider: SC2 is a very young game, and the metagame changes a lot. That's why slow players still compete in a high level, their strategies work even though they are slow because we have not explored everything the game has to offer. Now, I'm not saying the top A-teamers in BW are mechanical robots who can't think; Flash for example is not very fast but still is dominant as fuck. I'm just saying that while the competition in SC2, while not as nearly as fierce in BW, is still legit. I like to think we are going in a phase in SC2 similar to what BW experienced after oov's dominance. The play is macro oriented, but there are still strategies which will revolutionize match ups.
On December 09 2011 22:03 FATJESUSONABIKE wrote: No, I really meant 'fully understand'. I did indeed exagerate though, MVP was an A-teamer, only really not amongst the best ones. as for the 'endlessly', it's called an hyperbole.
Again I'm just giving my opinion, my apologies if you find it flawed.
I followed BW for 7 years. For more than a year I watched basically every televised game. When TSL2 replay packs were released, I watched and analysed every single Idra replay (a ridiculous amount). I'm still not close to understanding BW on a high level. Like Sc2, but to a greater extent, BW's a game that you have to play at a decent level in order to appreciate its subtleties. I don't want to make a huge deal out of this, but saying you 'understand BW fully' after watching some progames is, well, very deluded.
"Another point you forgot to consider: SC2 is a very young game, and the metagame changes a lot. That's why slow players still compete in a high level, their strategies work even though they are slow because we have not explored everything the game has to offer." Hence my calling sc2's scene "still volatile and criticizable".
You're quite right about the young players (specially Leenock and Jjakji -who put up an unexpectedly awesome finals-) but I still feel that because of BW being mechanically way more demanding than SC2, players that switch not long after their prime on SCBW will find SC2 easy to master and will be able to put a lot more thoughts into toying with the metagame and being better than the rest (little like son goku training with weights, lame comparison i know). They also have, again thanks to BW, amazing crisis management -which is something that seriously lacks in SC2 atm- and overall just seem to me to be advantaged in a lot of ways compared to SC2's homegrowns.
Anyway I believe one could argue both ways and still be right. Only time will tell and I honestly couldn't be more excited about SC2 following its own path.
On December 09 2011 22:00 Itsmedudeman wrote: Well so far, it seems like forgg's mechanics are better than MVP's. He plays the game like brood war rather than sc2. Unfortunately, I've only gotten to see MVP play once, but forgg is one of the fastest and most precise players I've ever seen play the game, and it really shed the game in a new light for me. However, MVP is MVP and his strongest aspect is his decision making and strategy, and his multitasking is also really good, and probably around the same level as forgg's.
No offense, I think there's something stuck on your monitor. I've been watching his stream alot today and say he's the fastest and most precise is just outright ridiculous
These hype is getting out of hand. Can't wait for the sad reality that'll crush alot of people's hope comes January.
On December 09 2011 22:00 Itsmedudeman wrote: Well so far, it seems like forgg's mechanics are better than MVP's. He plays the game like brood war rather than sc2. Unfortunately, I've only gotten to see MVP play once, but forgg is one of the fastest and most precise players I've ever seen play the game, and it really shed the game in a new light for me. However, MVP is MVP and his strongest aspect is his decision making and strategy, and his multitasking is also really good, and probably around the same level as forgg's.
No offense, I think there's something stuck on your monitor. I've been watching his stream alot today and say he's the fastest and most precise is just outright ridiculous
These hype is getting out of hand. Can't wait for the sad reality that'll crush alot of people's hope comes January.
No man, you probably missclicked a different terran's stream then.
Also found this quote LOL:
On July 17 2008 18:45 IdrA wrote: Show nested quote +
forgg's timing/macro really stand out because theyre a level above the rest of his game. (or they were, its caught up recently) flash is insanely good at everything so it doesnt seem as special with him.
Watched some of ForGG's play after hearing that is was some hype about him on sotg. From the games I've seen so far he seem to have pretty good follow up attacks, to his early game pressure. He has strong timings and has clear goals in his game play, and his in-game decisions are good, and multitasking. Will he get far next GSL? That depends, if you study his builds and timings enough you shouldn't lose to them, and I don't think his macro based play is on par with MVP or Hero. Against ForGG it seem like you should try to place safe and force macro games that is just my 2 cents.
I have a question: Everyone talks about BW pros being totally kickass, but dont we have 3 BW legends already playing, and not showing too good results? NaDa, BoxeR and July
On December 09 2011 22:47 Shikyo wrote: Flash isn't very fast, what? He averages like 300 APM, I'd say that only like... Jaedong is faster.
he isnt particulary fast compared to players like Hydra
Have you ever seen Flash's speed in OSL? He may not be _the fastest_ in proleague, but when it comes down to huge tournaments, he has no trouble playing at 370-420 apm AVERAGE, especially when he's playing TvZ.
In either case, it's not really relevant. His speed is obviously enough for him to perform well, so what's the issue here?
On December 09 2011 23:28 OGKruemmel wrote: I have a question: Everyone talks about BW pros being totally kickass, but dont we have 3 BW legends already playing, and not showing too good results? NaDa, BoxeR and July
They were all in GSL top 4 at one point or another, July was top2.
Just because they don't have 3 championships like Nestea does not mean they aren't capable at playing at a top level. They are unlikely to roflstomp to code S like JJakji, but they still do perform extremely well at top tournaments (Anaheim and Raleigh for Boxer/Nada come to mind)
On December 09 2011 23:28 OGKruemmel wrote: I have a question: Everyone talks about BW pros being totally kickass, but dont we have 3 BW legends already playing, and not showing too good results? NaDa, BoxeR and July
Who are past their prime, but in their respective primes tore up the scene AFAIK.
On December 09 2011 23:28 OGKruemmel wrote: I have a question: Everyone talks about BW pros being totally kickass, but dont we have 3 BW legends already playing, and not showing too good results? NaDa, BoxeR and July
Who are past their prime, but in their respective primes tore up the scene AFAIK.
Yep - they are waaaaaaay past their prime. Just check TLPD and watch some of the VODS of BW games from back in 2006-2008. The standard of games / the strategies employed are all sub-par to the games we are seeing today. Taek-Bang-Lee-Sang are on a totally different level than Nada, Boxer, July and the lot.
July's win-rate in his last few years of BW was pathetic. Nada maintained a mediocre standard near the end of his BW career.
That's why little known players like Mvp was called one of the "best" to switch from BW - not because he won an OSL, but because his skill level was the highest out of all the Ex-BW's to have switched.
Also SCII was ... volatile. It's still volatile and HoTS will rip apart the whole metagame once again sigh. ogsMC, aka "MBCgame Suicide Toss" used to be known as "Iron" in BW. He was called "suicide toss" because he played extremely risky and acted ballsy. Point being, he lost most of his games lol
I had so much fun watching Fin play TvP. Seriously, terrans seem to complain a lot about the matchup (admittedly tosses do the same), but look at what happens if someone actually uses ravens for timing pushes or uses vikings to land them in the mineral line and kill workers.
Imagine what happened to toss if Bisu switched. Or Jaedong. Matchups will change dramatically and we might again see JvZ. I'm so excited.
oGsFin is a good player! He played very well in his Code A games and did nearly no mistake. BUT you have to consider that he got very thankful opponents. Sage was hyped highly a few months ago (yes it's been this long), but NEVER was able to live up to it. Since Supertournament Polt never played convincingly in TvT. His Marine/Marauder Style depends heavily on not beeing pressured to hard in the early game and the opponent making mistakes in the mid/lategame. This just doesn't work on a really good TvTer. His bigcombat micro ist very good, but his macro lacks very much compared to other Code S/A Terrans. (I think I could name over a dozen terrans with much better macro than Polt has). It's just not enough anymore to be in the top class. And July. He looked really good in March/April. But since then, he got beaten up and outclassed at some points by a LOT of players. Remember how anypro took him apart in GSL May. July never had a chance there, and still noone did expect anypro to dominate the whole SC2 scene. He was simply outclassed a lot of time by a lot of different styles in all matchups. Since April he only really shined often times, when he crushed greedy opponents with some kind of hyperagressive allin play. Can't even remember him outclassing an opponent in a longterm game.
Overall those opponents had a bigger name than actual skill, and that's what's basically feeding all the hype (despite him beeing a former Star League Champion). I would wait until he faces a player who is playing well right now, then we can rate his skill and his prospects very well.
Until then he showed great entertaining games. But we should leave it as that for now!
On December 09 2011 14:21 Zzoram wrote: SC2 is mechanically easier than Broodwar but it's not easier to win, because everyone benefits from that advantage.
Strategically, there are more viable units and more options, and with the spare APM not spent on Broodwar-style macro, they can do some incredible micro and multiprong attacks.
Except BW pros still showcase superior micro and army control despite the greater difficulty of BW.
Oh, and SC2 is easier to win at the moment because the competition is much weaker. This is true at both the highest level and even at newbie level.
Example being sair/reaver. Honestly there isn't anything in SC2 that comes even CLOSE to a well executed sair/reaver build.
Purify-my-eyes build. Not executed at all these days. Is it because of the maps? Or tosses are too wuss these days. Admittedly, other builds like the gateway pressure builds seems to be "easier" to play, but man - sair/reaver when executed well, was catharsis.
On December 09 2011 22:47 Shikyo wrote: Flash isn't very fast, what? He averages like 300 APM, I'd say that only like... Jaedong is faster.
he isnt particulary fast compared to players like Hydra
Have you ever seen Flash's speed in OSL? He may not be _the fastest_ in proleague, but when it comes down to huge tournaments, he has no trouble playing at 370-420 apm AVERAGE, especially when he's playing TvZ.
In either case, it's not really relevant. His speed is obviously enough for him to perform well, so what's the issue here?
doesnt change the fact that there are faster players and not only jaedong like the guy said.
no one said its bad that flash is "slowler" or other guys are just faster.
On December 09 2011 23:50 zdfgucker wrote: I had so much fun watching Fin play TvP. Seriously, terrans seem to complain a lot about the matchup (admittedly tosses do the same), but look at what happens if someone actually uses ravens for timing pushes or uses vikings to land them in the mineral line and kill workers.
Imagine what happened to toss if Bisu switched. Or Jaedong. Matchups will change dramatically and we might again see JvZ. I'm so excited.
Only sad thing is I think Bisu said somewhere he would only play Protoss for "fun" in Sc2, I hope he either changes his mind or never switches.
On December 09 2011 23:28 OGKruemmel wrote: I have a question: Everyone talks about BW pros being totally kickass, but dont we have 3 BW legends already playing, and not showing too good results? NaDa, BoxeR and July
Who are past their prime, but in their respective primes tore up the scene AFAIK.
Yep - they are waaaaaaay past their prime. Just check TLPD and watch some of the VODS of BW games from back in 2006-2008. The standard of games / the strategies employed are all sub-par to the games we are seeing today. Taek-Bang-Lee-Sang are on a totally different level than Nada, Boxer, July and the lot.
July's win-rate in his last few years of BW was pathetic. Nada maintained a mediocre standard near the end of his BW career.
That's why little known players like Mvp was called one of the "best" to switch from BW - not because he won an OSL, but because his skill level was the highest out of all the Ex-BW's to have switched.
Also SCII was ... volatile. It's still volatile and HoTS will rip apart the whole metagame once again sigh. ogsMC, aka "MBCgame Suicide Toss" used to be known as "Iron" in BW. He was called "suicide toss" because he played extremely risky and acted ballsy. Point being, he lost most of his games lol
NaDa, BoxeR, July, Nestea, MVP, MC, etc, all of these were BW pros. (and many more ofc) However all the BW pros who now play SC2 were either not the most successful players in BW or they are waaaayyy past their golden age. ForGG is on paper probably the strongest BW player at the moment out of those, which clearly shows in SC2, and therefore should give him a fighting chance among the SC2 top players rather quickly.
On December 09 2011 23:28 OGKruemmel wrote: I have a question: Everyone talks about BW pros being totally kickass, but dont we have 3 BW legends already playing, and not showing too good results? NaDa, BoxeR and July
Who are past their prime, but in their respective primes tore up the scene AFAIK.
These threads are like broken records sometimes.
Person 1: "HOW COME BOXER AND JULY AREN''T #1 HUH ? HUH ? YEAH I SHOWED YOU STUPID BW ELITISTS"
Person 2: "He won his last gold in bw like.. 2004. That's SEVEN years ago. After July won his golden mouse he was basically like "Fuck it, I don't give a shit". Who are the two most dominant players in GSL and did they have a background in BW?"
Person 3: " HOW COME BW LEGENDS AREN'T OWNING IT UP HUH??????"
On December 09 2011 23:28 OGKruemmel wrote: I have a question: Everyone talks about BW pros being totally kickass, but dont we have 3 BW legends already playing, and not showing too good results? NaDa, BoxeR and July
they are bad compared to the likes of Flash. But anyway even then, they are holding their own very well in sc2.
I'm sure the OP knew this thread would eventually devolve into BW nostalgia, but a lot of people have pointed out that we already have Nada/Boxer/July do well in the SC2 scene but not really take home any major victories. July was probably closest with a GSL runner-up, right? One thread in particular I can remember that said when Flash/Bisu/Jae/etc come over from BW then the current SC2 programers (especially some of the foreigners) are gonna go by the wayside, hope that's not the case. But when you see fOrGG play as well as he is, it's hard not to believe the current BW stars will shine once they make the switch! (If anyone can find that thread and link it here, I would appreciate it ^ ^)
On December 09 2011 23:50 zdfgucker wrote: I had so much fun watching Fin play TvP. Seriously, terrans seem to complain a lot about the matchup (admittedly tosses do the same), but look at what happens if someone actually uses ravens for timing pushes or uses vikings to land them in the mineral line and kill workers.
Imagine what happened to toss if Bisu switched. Or Jaedong. Matchups will change dramatically and we might again see JvZ. I'm so excited.
Only sad thing is I think Bisu said somewhere he would only play Protoss for "fun" in Sc2, I hope he either changes his mind or never switches.
What Hero can do (<3 u heroo) i think Bisu can do better
So i dont think this is something to consider seriously.
On December 09 2011 14:21 Zzoram wrote: SC2 is mechanically easier than Broodwar but it's not easier to win, because everyone benefits from that advantage.
Strategically, there are more viable units and more options, and with the spare APM not spent on Broodwar-style macro, they can do some incredible micro and multiprong attacks.
Except BW pros still showcase superior micro and army control despite the greater difficulty of BW.
Oh, and SC2 is easier to win at the moment because the competition is much weaker. This is true at both the highest level and even at newbie level.
Example being sair/reaver. Honestly there isn't anything in SC2 that comes even CLOSE to a well executed sair/reaver build.
Purify-my-eyes build. Not executed at all these days. Is it because of the maps? Or tosses are too wuss these days. Admittedly, other builds like the gateway pressure builds seems to be "easier" to play, but man - sair/reaver when executed well, was catharsis.
sair reaver was cool especially if the zerg hold so well but didn't got the corsairs so disruption web ended up in the research line *-*. Anyway there doesn't need to be much discussion if a good rts player will be good in sc2, thats almost a given, unless they think sc2 is easy mode and slack of. The only point in which a bw pro gamer could fail is adapting, as the next 4 years sc2 will receive heavy balance changes and there will be new strategies every tournament.
On December 09 2011 23:28 OGKruemmel wrote: I have a question: Everyone talks about BW pros being totally kickass, but dont we have 3 BW legends already playing, and not showing too good results? NaDa, BoxeR and July
On December 10 2011 00:20 ceaRshaf wrote: Hmm, I've been watching his stream and he makes many, many mistakes. He certanly does not rape ladder like HerO or Stephano have.
Lol what are you talking about? He has had 3 accounts in top 10 GM with over 70% win ratio since season 2.
The guy is killing top GM Koreans with hellion banshee :\ such good control, if he keeps improving, there is no way he wont win code s, maybe not January, but soon.
On December 10 2011 00:20 ceaRshaf wrote: Hmm, I've been watching his stream and he makes many, many mistakes. He certanly does not rape ladder like HerO or Stephano have.
He seems still raw in many areas. Most times he's pretty much overwhelming his opponents with his BW mechanics, and it doesn't look like he understands all the details of SC2 completely yet. This is so compelling to watch because of the possibilities of SC2 with more A class BW players of other races (toss / zergs) switch.
On December 09 2011 23:28 OGKruemmel wrote: I have a question: Everyone talks about BW pros being totally kickass, but dont we have 3 BW legends already playing, and not showing too good results? NaDa, BoxeR and July
Who are past their prime, but in their respective primes tore up the scene AFAIK.
Yep - they are waaaaaaay past their prime. Just check TLPD and watch some of the VODS of BW games from back in 2006-2008. The standard of games / the strategies employed are all sub-par to the games we are seeing today. Taek-Bang-Lee-Sang are on a totally different level than Nada, Boxer, July and the lot.
July's win-rate in his last few years of BW was pathetic. Nada maintained a mediocre standard near the end of his BW career.
That's why little known players like Mvp was called one of the "best" to switch from BW - not because he won an OSL, but because his skill level was the highest out of all the Ex-BW's to have switched.
Also SCII was ... volatile. It's still volatile and HoTS will rip apart the whole metagame once again sigh. ogsMC, aka "MBCgame Suicide Toss" used to be known as "Iron" in BW. He was called "suicide toss" because he played extremely risky and acted ballsy. Point being, he lost most of his games lol
I glanced at July's last 10 games and ForGG's and ironically July won more of them than Forgg did. People need to just wait and see how people do before proclaiming them the best ever. Also, people like MC and MVP simply got better chances to do well here and likely put in more effort. That alone can explain a big part of why they do better here.
On December 09 2011 23:28 OGKruemmel wrote: I have a question: Everyone talks about BW pros being totally kickass, but dont we have 3 BW legends already playing, and not showing too good results? NaDa, BoxeR and July
Who are past their prime, but in their respective primes tore up the scene AFAIK.
Yep - they are waaaaaaay past their prime. Just check TLPD and watch some of the VODS of BW games from back in 2006-2008. The standard of games / the strategies employed are all sub-par to the games we are seeing today. Taek-Bang-Lee-Sang are on a totally different level than Nada, Boxer, July and the lot.
July's win-rate in his last few years of BW was pathetic. Nada maintained a mediocre standard near the end of his BW career.
That's why little known players like Mvp was called one of the "best" to switch from BW - not because he won an OSL, but because his skill level was the highest out of all the Ex-BW's to have switched.
Also SCII was ... volatile. It's still volatile and HoTS will rip apart the whole metagame once again sigh. ogsMC, aka "MBCgame Suicide Toss" used to be known as "Iron" in BW. He was called "suicide toss" because he played extremely risky and acted ballsy. Point being, he lost most of his games lol
I glanced at July's last 10 games and ForGG's and ironically July won more of them than Forgg did. People need to just wait and see how people do before proclaiming them the best ever. Also, people like MC and MVP simply got better chances to do well here and likely put in more effort. That alone can explain a big part of why they do better here.
Why are you trying to pretend like you know who was good in BW by using those stats? When people say forgg was better than july at the ends of their career it's not even close.
On December 09 2011 23:28 OGKruemmel wrote: I have a question: Everyone talks about BW pros being totally kickass, but dont we have 3 BW legends already playing, and not showing too good results? NaDa, BoxeR and July
Who are past their prime, but in their respective primes tore up the scene AFAIK.
Yep - they are waaaaaaay past their prime. Just check TLPD and watch some of the VODS of BW games from back in 2006-2008. The standard of games / the strategies employed are all sub-par to the games we are seeing today. Taek-Bang-Lee-Sang are on a totally different level than Nada, Boxer, July and the lot.
July's win-rate in his last few years of BW was pathetic. Nada maintained a mediocre standard near the end of his BW career.
That's why little known players like Mvp was called one of the "best" to switch from BW - not because he won an OSL, but because his skill level was the highest out of all the Ex-BW's to have switched.
Also SCII was ... volatile. It's still volatile and HoTS will rip apart the whole metagame once again sigh. ogsMC, aka "MBCgame Suicide Toss" used to be known as "Iron" in BW. He was called "suicide toss" because he played extremely risky and acted ballsy. Point being, he lost most of his games lol
I glanced at July's last 10 games and ForGG's and ironically July won more of them than Forgg did. People need to just wait and see how people do before proclaiming them the best ever. Also, people like MC and MVP simply got better chances to do well here and likely put in more effort. That alone can explain a big part of why they do better here.
Dunno, back then I watched every single game in proleague and MSL and OSL and ForGG actually was always really good but just had silly fails, when he retired he still was like #16 in kespa rank and just got into top 8 in a big tournament I think, also he pretty much always played macro while july cheesed most of the time in his past games. Also it's very likely july played worse opponents than forgg at the time, you can't just look at it like that. Also the people who say MVP was better than forgg when he retired clearly didn't follow the scene enough
On December 10 2011 00:54 ceaRshaf wrote: I am watching forGG for the last hour and he plays lots of tvts, and many of them are loses. How come he meets so many tvts on ladder?
...? I've been watching for a while and he's been playing mostly zergs/protosses. Also, he doesn't have very many losses at all.
On December 10 2011 00:54 ceaRshaf wrote: I am watching forGG for the last hour and he plays lots of tvts, and many of them are loses. How come he meets so many tvts on ladder?
...? I've been watching for a while and he's been playing mostly zergs/protosses. Also, he doesn't have very many losses at all.
On December 10 2011 00:54 ceaRshaf wrote: I am watching forGG for the last hour and he plays lots of tvts, and many of them are loses. How come he meets so many tvts on ladder?
He lost TvT to TOP. It's not something to be ashame of, specialy since he take back games time to time.
On December 10 2011 00:54 ceaRshaf wrote: I am watching forGG for the last hour and he plays lots of tvts, and many of them are loses. How come he meets so many tvts on ladder?
...? I've been watching for a while and he's been playing mostly zergs/protosses. Also, he doesn't have very many losses at all.
And recently it's been terrans I guess, but all day today and yesterday it's been like zergs/protosses. And yeah, he lost to TOP but he's 2-1 then cause he's beaten him twice today.
On December 10 2011 00:54 ceaRshaf wrote: I am watching forGG for the last hour and he plays lots of tvts, and many of them are loses. How come he meets so many tvts on ladder?
...? I've been watching for a while and he's been playing mostly zergs/protosses. Also, he doesn't have very many losses at all.
And recently it's been terrans I guess, but all day today and yesterday it's been like zergs/protosses. And yeah, he lost to TOP but he's 2-1 then cause he's beaten him twice today.
So why are you posting? All I have said is that I have been watching his stream the last hour and a half and he gets many many terrans and that he lost a lot to them.
I didn't say his record is bad, just that he lost a lot today, and mostly vs t.
On December 10 2011 00:54 ceaRshaf wrote: I am watching forGG for the last hour and he plays lots of tvts, and many of them are loses. How come he meets so many tvts on ladder?
...? I've been watching for a while and he's been playing mostly zergs/protosses. Also, he doesn't have very many losses at all.
And recently it's been terrans I guess, but all day today and yesterday it's been like zergs/protosses. And yeah, he lost to TOP but he's 2-1 then cause he's beaten him twice today.
So why are you posting? All I have said is that I have been watching his stream the last hour and a half and he gets many many terrans and that he lost a lot to them.
I didn't say his record is bad, just that he lost a lot today, and mostly vs t.
That is blindly fanboism.
Well, considering he's lost a total of 3 games in the past 14 games I don't know what you're talking about exactly. If you've only been watching for an hour and a half which constitutes about 4-5 games, why did you bother to ask?
On December 10 2011 00:54 ceaRshaf wrote: I am watching forGG for the last hour and he plays lots of tvts, and many of them are loses. How come he meets so many tvts on ladder?
...? I've been watching for a while and he's been playing mostly zergs/protosses. Also, he doesn't have very many losses at all.
And recently it's been terrans I guess, but all day today and yesterday it's been like zergs/protosses. And yeah, he lost to TOP but he's 2-1 then cause he's beaten him twice today.
So why are you posting? All I have said is that I have been watching his stream the last hour and a half and he gets many many terrans and that he lost a lot to them.
I didn't say his record is bad, just that he lost a lot today, and mostly vs t.
The thing that stood out to me about fOrGG's play (watching last night, ~13 hours ago) most was the constant harrass. Build-wise, it looks like he's still doing a lot of "Let's try to make this BW build work here". His compositions often seem to be less than optimal in tank/marauder/marine ratios, but his support units (hellions, vikings, ravens) are super-effective. But the harass and battle micro is a cut above anything we've seen. He abuses drops and height (although he's clearly not entirely adjusted to SC2's new height mechanic). Even when he loses battles, he'll still have a random four vikings wiping out pylons or something.
On the other hand, there was a game vs Cezanne (or that account at least) where the harass got completely shut down, and his lack of a clear strategy besides "keep attacking till I win" lost the game. Honestly this is something that seemed vaguely familiar from his BW play: "Plan A didn't work, now what?", but it seems more excusable here... maybe.
Yep, and his mech style is quite unimpressive IMO.
Sacrificied way too many hellions, couldn't push early enough because of this, got supply blocked, underproduced SCV because he was too busy microing hellions/banshees...
Not too impressed. It's ladder so not representative, but I'm not sure this style is the way to go.
Hes doing this relentless aggression thing every game. I would like very much to see him play a standard game to see how good he really is. I mean hes obviously amazing since he has a high win rate doing this style. But i wonder if OGSthewind has helped him with his play style in other ways.
And to add on, i noticed he dosen't like to build scvs. There will be moments he decides not to build scvs at all. As in he literally screens through his CC idling and dosen't build any scv at all.
On December 10 2011 02:08 SKYFISH_ wrote: seems to me stephano won that game EZ .....forGG is hardly the unstoppable pro TLers have been hyping up for the past month
LOL i'm not biased but anyone can see that fOrGG harass was being really irritating to stephano and he had a big window to attack (before ultras) that he totally screwed up since fOrGG has no idea on how to play past 2 base.
On December 10 2011 01:37 SafeAsCheese wrote: God... how do people watch him.
I know he is good, but fucking jeez, he does hellion banshee or thor timings every game...
He is...practicing?
By being predictable?
If you aren't familiar with how the BW players practiced back in the day then perhaps I should help you. They would practice one cookie cutter build until they knew it like the back of their hand. From there they would expand on it based off what they see.
What FOrGG is doing is no different than your boy toy IdrA. Predictable yes, but he'll branch out. It's the BW method.
Some people and their double standards. Fuck.
On December 10 2011 02:08 SKYFISH_ wrote: seems to me stephano won that game EZ .....forGG is hardly the unstoppable pro TLers have been hyping up for the past month
I watched a lot of FOrGG the other day and he was steamrolling pro's left and right. Just woke up so I missed the stephano match, but he did sweep IdrA 4-0 and beat guys like Top too. You cannot make judgements off one game, but a whole slue of them sure.
We're very fortunate to get to watch him stream on ladder, so we can actually get a chance to see how good he can actually be. From what I've seen he's well on his way.
On December 10 2011 02:20 SKYFISH_ wrote: all I saw was forGG mining out his main and losing the game as soon as stephano remembered to make units other than lings
Stephano was down 30 supply most of the game, but forgg waited too long. In fact though, stephano's style of mass ling and 3-5 queens is pretty good against the early harass but forgg still managed to do damage.
is this where we come to the conclusion that Zerg is hilariously OP or could we simply accept for once that our fabled BROODWAR PRO HOMYGAWD made a crapload of mistakes and played a pretty shitty game overall?
On December 10 2011 02:25 SKYFISH_ wrote: is this where we come to the conclusion that Zerg is hilariously OP or could we simply accept for once that our fabled BROODWAR PRO HOMYGAWD made a crapload of mistakes and played a pretty shitty game overall?
Everyone stated he made mistakes that game. Its a ladder game. Whats your point?
On December 10 2011 02:25 SKYFISH_ wrote: is this where we come to the conclusion that Zerg is hilariously OP or could we simply accept for once that our fabled BROODWAR PRO HOMYGAWD made a crapload of mistakes and played a pretty shitty game overall?
Or Stephano is an incredibly talented young gamer as we all know.
On December 10 2011 02:25 SKYFISH_ wrote: is this where we come to the conclusion that Zerg is hilariously OP or could we simply accept for once that our fabled BROODWAR PRO HOMYGAWD made a crapload of mistakes and played a pretty shitty game overall?
Everyone stated he made mistakes that game. Its a ladder game. Whats your point?
I think he's trying to counter the extreme fOrGG hype that's been spreading the last week or so. It's the endless circle of hype/atihype that surrounds every player.
On December 10 2011 02:25 SKYFISH_ wrote: is this where we come to the conclusion that Zerg is hilariously OP or could we simply accept for once that our fabled BROODWAR PRO HOMYGAWD made a crapload of mistakes and played a pretty shitty game overall?
no one is going to stream "for real" games.
ogs has a stable of some of the best practice partners in the world. the real practice happens behind closed doors. i'm afraid you're going to see stupid, one-dimensional builds from him. at least, until gsl comes about.
On December 10 2011 02:25 SKYFISH_ wrote: is this where we come to the conclusion that Zerg is hilariously OP or could we simply accept for once that our fabled BROODWAR PRO HOMYGAWD made a crapload of mistakes and played a pretty shitty game overall?
Everyone stated he made mistakes that game. Its a ladder game. Whats your point?
I think he's trying to counter the extreme fOrGG hype that's been spreading the last week or so. It's the endless circle of hype/atihype that surrounds every player.
I suppose but you have to be blind to not recognise the insane mechanics that fOrGG is displaying? Obviously fOrGG is lacking in the decision making department.
i acknowledge that forgg is being way too hyped right now, but seriously..
he's laddering and streaming, who honestly thinks he's giving half a shit? he's doing the same exact builds over and over and simply keeping mechanics sharp, the fact that almost everyone loses to this shit nonstop is lolworthy
no point giving credit or taking away credit from whatever is going on, but if anyone thinks a korean pro is gonna showcase how he really plays/other strats to the world, especially know that he's in code s...
On December 10 2011 01:37 SafeAsCheese wrote: God... how do people watch him.
I know he is good, but fucking jeez, he does hellion banshee or thor timings every game...
He is...practicing?
By being predictable?
If you aren't familiar with how the BW players practiced back in the day then perhaps I should help you. They would practice one cookie cutter build until they knew it like the back of their hand. From there they would expand on it based off what they see.
What FOrGG is doing is no different than your boy toy IdrA. Predictable yes, but he'll branch out. It's the BW method.
On December 10 2011 02:08 SKYFISH_ wrote: seems to me stephano won that game EZ .....forGG is hardly the unstoppable pro TLers have been hyping up for the past month
I watched a lot of FOrGG the other day and he was steamrolling pro's left and right. Just woke up so I missed the stephano match, but he did sweep IdrA 4-0 and beat guys like Top too. You cannot make judgements off one game, but a whole slue of them sure.
We're very fortunate to get to watch him stream on ladder, so we can actually get a chance to see how good he can actually be. From what I've seen he's well on his way.
May I add that he was playing a TvZ on cross pos metalopolis. You aren't really supposed to win here as terran, as much as you aren't supposed to win ZvT on xel'naga.
On December 10 2011 02:25 SKYFISH_ wrote: is this where we come to the conclusion that Zerg is hilariously OP or could we simply accept for once that our fabled BROODWAR PRO HOMYGAWD made a crapload of mistakes and played a pretty shitty game overall?
Everyone stated he made mistakes that game. Its a ladder game. Whats your point?
I think he's trying to counter the extreme fOrGG hype that's been spreading the last week or so. It's the endless circle of hype/atihype that surrounds every player.
I suppose but you have to be blind to not recognise the insane mechanics that fOrGG is displaying? Obviously fOrGG is lacking in the decision making department.
Yeah, I don't get these people saying he's trying the same build and that it won't work against someone who knows it's coming.
No shit? You think helion drop and banshee harass is gonna work against someone who knows it's coming? These are just builds he's trying out and nothing more.
On December 10 2011 02:12 Sapphire.lux wrote: Yeah, judge a player by what he does on ladder, while streaming. That's very smart.
Yeah, judge a player by what he does on ladder, while streaming, only when his winning. Like the hype Stephano, Hero had. When they lose it's just practice. Double standard all the way.
On December 10 2011 02:25 SKYFISH_ wrote: is this where we come to the conclusion that Zerg is hilariously OP or could we simply accept for once that our fabled BROODWAR PRO HOMYGAWD made a crapload of mistakes and played a pretty shitty game overall?
Everyone stated he made mistakes that game. Its a ladder game. Whats your point?
I think he's trying to counter the extreme fOrGG hype that's been spreading the last week or so. It's the endless circle of hype/atihype that surrounds every player.
I suppose but you have to be blind to not recognise the insane mechanics that fOrGG is displaying? Obviously fOrGG is lacking in the decision making department.
Yeah, I don't get these people saying he's trying the same build and that it won't work against someone who knows it's coming.
No shit? You think helion drop and banshee harass is gonna work against someone who knows it's coming? These are just builds he's trying out and nothing more.
To be more specific he's working on his mechanics on ladder with the hellion/banshee micro.
The builds he is doing are great for practicing that.
FOrGG is a fineness player. He doesn't make as many clicks as some Terrans, but he has really good precision.
On December 10 2011 02:12 Sapphire.lux wrote: Yeah, judge a player by what he does on ladder, while streaming. That's very smart.
Yeah, judge a player by what he does on ladder, while streaming, only when his winning. Like the hype Stephano, Hero had. When they lose it's just practice. Double standard all the way.
unfortunately for your argument he has also cleaned house in code A 6-0 against 3 strong opponents, something which the other two people you mentioned have never done.
On December 10 2011 02:12 Sapphire.lux wrote: Yeah, judge a player by what he does on ladder, while streaming. That's very smart.
Yeah, judge a player by what he does on ladder, while streaming, only when his winning. Like the hype Stephano, Hero had. When they lose it's just practice. Double standard all the way.
People are judging him based on what they can see like mechanics, micro, and multitasking.
On December 10 2011 02:33 kineticSYN wrote: i acknowledge that forgg is being way too hyped right now, but seriously..
he's laddering and streaming, who honestly thinks he's giving half a shit? he's doing the same exact builds over and over and simply keeping mechanics sharp, the fact that almost everyone loses to this shit nonstop is lolworthy
no point giving credit or taking away credit from whatever is going on, but if anyone thinks a korean pro is gonna showcase how he really plays/other strats to the world, especially know that he's in code s...
no, just no.
Look what he is doing against Zergs is basically what he done against July so no he is not hiding his builds.
On December 10 2011 02:12 Sapphire.lux wrote: Yeah, judge a player by what he does on ladder, while streaming. That's very smart.
Yeah, judge a player by what he does on ladder, while streaming, only when his winning. Like the hype Stephano, Hero had. When they lose it's just practice. Double standard all the way.
unfortunately for your argument he has also cleaned house in code A 6-0 against 3 strong opponents, something which the other two people you mentioned have never done.
Unfortunately that's not the point. The idea is that some people hype players when they want to but the same principle does not apply when they don't like it. And btw, by your argument do you imply that forGG must be better than Stephano or HerO? That is kinda superficial isn't it?
On December 10 2011 02:12 Sapphire.lux wrote: Yeah, judge a player by what he does on ladder, while streaming. That's very smart.
Yeah, judge a player by what he does on ladder, while streaming, only when his winning. Like the hype Stephano, Hero had. When they lose it's just practice. Double standard all the way.
You do realize that both ways of judging someone are equally retarded? Overhype is just as stupid as nitpicking on single ladder games.
I hope people saying "omg he lost to X player, with X player being a very good progamer, he's not that good" are trolling or something. Welcome to sc2 where anyone can take a game off of anyone
On December 10 2011 02:12 Sapphire.lux wrote: Yeah, judge a player by what he does on ladder, while streaming. That's very smart.
Yeah, judge a player by what he does on ladder, while streaming, only when his winning. Like the hype Stephano, Hero had. When they lose it's just practice. Double standard all the way.
unfortunately for your argument he has also cleaned house in code A 6-0 against 3 strong opponents, something which the other two people you mentioned have never done.
Unfortunately that's not the point. The idea is that some people hype players when they want to but the same principle does not apply when they don't like it. And btw, by your argument do you imply that forGG must be better than Stephano or HerO? That is kinda superficial isn't it?
it's pointless to hype players off ladder games, only actual showings.
On December 10 2011 02:50 Linwelin wrote: I hope people saying "omg he lost to X player, with X player being a very good progamer, he's not that good" are trolling or something. Welcome to sc2 where anyone can take a game off of anyone
This! Lol he goes on a rampage last night loosing like 2-4 games the entire time I was watching(About2 and a half hours maybe more) and he loses one stupid game against Stephano and every one is "OMG see its all just hype he lost he can lose!"
That is just mind blowing. Though I agree to an extent he is a bit overhyped at the moment. 2-0'ing his way to Code S is very impressive but thats only 3 bo3's not nearly enough to hype him as unstoppable or a god etc.
Yeah, I've basically agreed that he's not a top 3 terran yet, but I just see so much potential in him. Once he gets better game sense it'll be very interesting to see how he compares to MVP/MMA/Jjakji. But people should realize that he is still a code S player.
Just stop saying shit based on ladder. If you can't see how good his play is by watching you're an idiot but don't hype him by ladder. Hype him by his tourney results.
On December 10 2011 02:33 kineticSYN wrote: i acknowledge that forgg is being way too hyped right now, but seriously..
he's laddering and streaming, who honestly thinks he's giving half a shit? he's doing the same exact builds over and over and simply keeping mechanics sharp, the fact that almost everyone loses to this shit nonstop is lolworthy
no point giving credit or taking away credit from whatever is going on, but if anyone thinks a korean pro is gonna showcase how he really plays/other strats to the world, especially know that he's in code s...
no, just no.
Pretty much this. I find it hilarious that he can abuse a combination of hellions and banshees to just roll over an opponent within 15 minutes. His unit control is just amazing to watch, we should be glad that we're able to watch his FPVODs.
On December 09 2011 23:28 OGKruemmel wrote: I have a question: Everyone talks about BW pros being totally kickass, but dont we have 3 BW legends already playing, and not showing too good results? NaDa, BoxeR and July
Who are past their prime, but in their respective primes tore up the scene AFAIK.
Yep - they are waaaaaaay past their prime. Just check TLPD and watch some of the VODS of BW games from back in 2006-2008. The standard of games / the strategies employed are all sub-par to the games we are seeing today. Taek-Bang-Lee-Sang are on a totally different level than Nada, Boxer, July and the lot.
July's win-rate in his last few years of BW was pathetic. Nada maintained a mediocre standard near the end of his BW career.
That's why little known players like Mvp was called one of the "best" to switch from BW - not because he won an OSL, but because his skill level was the highest out of all the Ex-BW's to have switched.
Also SCII was ... volatile. It's still volatile and HoTS will rip apart the whole metagame once again sigh. ogsMC, aka "MBCgame Suicide Toss" used to be known as "Iron" in BW. He was called "suicide toss" because he played extremely risky and acted ballsy. Point being, he lost most of his games lol
Iron wasn't called suicide toss because of anything he did in the game, it was because he made this hilarious throat cut ceremony gesture thing when he was sent up for an ace match vs KT (to snipe flash with some dumb protoss proxy dt cheese or something most likely), but KT sent stats out instead of flash and iron got stomped.
On December 10 2011 03:47 1Eris1 wrote: Just stop saying shit based on ladder. If you can't see how good his play is by watching you're an idiot but don't hype him by ladder. Hype him by his tourney results.
X.x? I don't get the point of hyping someone based off tourny results because then... well haven't they already proven themselves to begin with?
Some of the hype is overboard, but that's what happens. You have extremists on all sides. But it's still very obvious that he is incredibly good, and has a lot of potential. This isn't just from his stream, he's proven he has what it takes in BW, he has the work ethic, and he's been a champion before.
The fact that he is able to run supoptimal openings and unit compositions and still win versus very good players should tell you how ridiculous his mechanics are.
Love watching his stream, although its pretty obvious he's just dicking around/experimenting with various timing attacks. It's very common for zerg these days to get fast evo for sim-city against hellion, so naturally it's doesn't seem like the greatest idea to go reactor hellion into cloak banshee.
But this guy is making no assumptions when approaching sc2 metagame. He's re-testing all the established rules. After all, this is forGG the timing attack terran, he's not just going to let other terrans tell him a certain timing attack doesn't work before trying it out himself.
On December 10 2011 03:04 Itsmedudeman wrote: Yeah, I've basically agreed that he's not a top 3 terran yet, but I just see so much potential in him. Once he gets better game sense it'll be very interesting to see how he compares to MVP/MMA/Jjakji. But people should realize that he is still a code S player.
He's almost on the same level as MMA. From watching his streams his TvP is vastly better than MMA's, while his TvZ is definitely much weaker. If he played standard Bio/Tank/Medivac I'm sure he'd roll most Z's though.
On December 10 2011 02:12 Sapphire.lux wrote: Yeah, judge a player by what he does on ladder, while streaming. That's very smart.
Yeah, judge a player by what he does on ladder, while streaming, only when his winning. Like the hype Stephano, Hero had. When they lose it's just practice. Double standard all the way.
I didn't say anything about any player good or bad based on how they do while streaming. "Double standard all the way"
On December 09 2011 23:28 OGKruemmel wrote: I have a question: Everyone talks about BW pros being totally kickass, but dont we have 3 BW legends already playing, and not showing too good results? NaDa, BoxeR and July
Who are past their prime, but in their respective primes tore up the scene AFAIK.
Yep - they are waaaaaaay past their prime. Just check TLPD and watch some of the VODS of BW games from back in 2006-2008. The standard of games / the strategies employed are all sub-par to the games we are seeing today. Taek-Bang-Lee-Sang are on a totally different level than Nada, Boxer, July and the lot.
July's win-rate in his last few years of BW was pathetic. Nada maintained a mediocre standard near the end of his BW career.
That's why little known players like Mvp was called one of the "best" to switch from BW - not because he won an OSL, but because his skill level was the highest out of all the Ex-BW's to have switched.
Also SCII was ... volatile. It's still volatile and HoTS will rip apart the whole metagame once again sigh. ogsMC, aka "MBCgame Suicide Toss" used to be known as "Iron" in BW. He was called "suicide toss" because he played extremely risky and acted ballsy. Point being, he lost most of his games lol
I glanced at July's last 10 games and ForGG's and ironically July won more of them than Forgg did. People need to just wait and see how people do before proclaiming them the best ever. Also, people like MC and MVP simply got better chances to do well here and likely put in more effort. That alone can explain a big part of why they do better here.
Dunno, back then I watched every single game in proleague and MSL and OSL and ForGG actually was always really good but just had silly fails, when he retired he still was like #16 in kespa rank and just got into top 8 in a big tournament I think, also he pretty much always played macro while july cheesed most of the time in his past games. Also it's very likely july played worse opponents than forgg at the time, you can't just look at it like that. Also the people who say MVP was better than forgg when he retired clearly didn't follow the scene enough
thx for the polite reply unlike that other guy Yah I figured they were worse opponents but I didnt bother to check. The person I replied to simply commented on win % at the end of the career so I pointed out he was wrong(technically or otherwise it didnt matter to me).
On December 10 2011 04:18 FinalForm wrote: Love watching his stream, although its pretty obvious he's just dicking around/experimenting with various timing attacks. It's very common for zerg these days to get fast evo for sim-city against hellion, so naturally it's doesn't seem like the greatest idea to go reactor hellion into cloak banshee.
But this guy is making no assumptions when approaching sc2 metagame. He's re-testing all the established rules. After all, this is forGG the timing attack terran, he's not just going to let other terrans tell him a certain timing attack doesn't work before trying it out himself.
On December 10 2011 03:04 Itsmedudeman wrote: Yeah, I've basically agreed that he's not a top 3 terran yet, but I just see so much potential in him. Once he gets better game sense it'll be very interesting to see how he compares to MVP/MMA/Jjakji. But people should realize that he is still a code S player.
He's almost on the same level as MMA. From watching his streams his TvP is vastly better than MMA's, while his TvZ is definitely much weaker. If he played standard Bio/Tank/Medivac I'm sure he'd roll most Z's though.
Just because MMA has one weak matchup doesnt mean this guy is on his level. MMA has stellar vz and vt(minus the Polt series)
Maybe with Huk in the Slayers house he can learn TVP a bit better..
MMA has more game sense and his late game is insanely good. Too hard to judge how good forgg's late game is. I'm sure his mechanics and multitasking are just as good then, but decision making/etc. stuff like that is completely in the dark.
Forgg has a tendency to go WAAAY overaggressive when he should be playing passive. It might just be his style, or just something he's practicing, but he's very rarely ever passive and I always think "wow, really? you can move out right now?" And most of the times he crushes them, but other times he doesn't.
On December 10 2011 03:04 Itsmedudeman wrote: Yeah, I've basically agreed that he's not a top 3 terran yet, but I just see so much potential in him. Once he gets better game sense it'll be very interesting to see how he compares to MVP/MMA/Jjakji. But people should realize that he is still a code S player.
He's almost on the same level as MMA. From watching his streams his TvP is vastly better than MMA's, while his TvZ is definitely much weaker. If he played standard Bio/Tank/Medivac I'm sure he'd roll most Z's though.
Just because MMA has one weak matchup doesnt mean this guy is on his level. MMA has stellar vz and vt(minus the Polt series)
Maybe with Huk in the Slayers house he can learn TVP a bit better..
Forgg's TvP is way better than MMA's, and his TvZ is not really that shabby considering he can outplay most of his Z opponents.
Also, ForGG's TvT is pretty disgustingly sick.
MMA lately also hasn't been that impressive, although he's still putting up good results.
On December 10 2011 06:45 Steveling wrote: MMA wasn't even trying when he was playing bw. He decided to get serious on sc2.
Instead of trying to get a 300k+ salary like Flash he chose to get serious for them sweet local chicken joint sponsorships.
Not that i really agree with the post you're quoting but the whole SlayerS team is sponsored by Intel, Razer and Pocari Sweat (think it's a pretty large japanese soft drink company). And beside that what are the chances of him getting anything close to a Flash like salary? Hyperbole much?
On December 10 2011 06:45 Steveling wrote: MMA wasn't even trying when he was playing bw. He decided to get serious on sc2.
Instead of trying to get a 300k+ salary like Flash he chose to get serious for them sweet local chicken joint sponsorships.
Not that i really agree with the post you're quoting but the whole SlayerS team is sponsored by Intel, Razer and Pocari Sweat (think it's a pretty large japanese soft drink company). And beside that what are the chances of him getting anything close to a Flash like salary? Hyperbole much?
As the mechanical difficulty isn't differentiating enough in sc2 for the top players games to be a big deciding factors, decision-making and having your mind at the right place will play an even bigger part in sc2 compared to bw. ( not saying it's less in bw, but the macro difficulty can differentiate players more there)
When i first tried out sc2, I did my warm up games in brood war. And As I was in the mode of peaking my apm, I'd keep that habit in sc2 even though builds wasn't in my backbone I did things with every apm, didn't just stare at the game, let the apm decrease when I lost focus.
I think his bw background will make sc2 feel easy now in the beginning. I think that as he's talking about how he hasn't played the game more than two months competetively peoples expectations are quite low.
So he can play without huge expectations on himself, just focus on the game. And the game feels easy to him.
With this behind him, making the right decisions and using his apm effectively will come easier than other former bw players who's played sc2 for quite some time, have won and lost, gotten their expectations up, lost the comparison to bw, the feeling of the game being easy.
Just my theory, but I think it's a big part of it. The most confident player seems to win big, Forgg is perhaps that player right now.
Finally seeing the mortal side of fOrGG. He just went up against CJEntushydra (a current A+ class BW player) and has lost a few times in a row. His hyper aggressive style doesn't quite work on BW zergs.
Then again, he definitely seems to be fooling around and trying out timing attack builds, but it'd be interesting to see how he does against other Zergs that have solid defence.
On December 10 2011 08:40 tubs wrote: Finally seeing the mortal side of fOrGG. He just went up against CJEntushydra (a current A+ class BW player) and has lost a few times in a row. His hyper aggressive style doesn't quite work on BW zergs.
Then again, he definitely seems to be fooling around and trying out timing attack builds, but it'd be interesting to see how he does against other Zergs that have solid defence.
Have you been following anything we've been saying in the CH thread with regards to practice on ladder and the fact that it's a pro's smurf account. ._.
On December 10 2011 08:40 tubs wrote: Finally seeing the mortal side of fOrGG. He just went up against CJEntushydra (a current A+ class BW player) and has lost a few times in a row. His hyper aggressive style doesn't quite work on BW zergs.
Then again, he definitely seems to be fooling around and trying out timing attack builds, but it'd be interesting to see how he does against other Zergs that have solid defence.
Have you been following anything we've been saying in the CH thread with regards to practice on ladder and the fact that it's a pro's smurf account. ._.
On December 10 2011 06:45 Steveling wrote: MMA wasn't even trying when he was playing bw. He decided to get serious on sc2.
Instead of trying to get a 300k+ salary like Flash he chose to get serious for them sweet local chicken joint sponsorships.
Instead of trying to get a 300k+ salary like some rich ass dude, you choose to post a comment like that on TL? I mean everyone has different capability and skills, you can't make that much money, MMA can't play that good in BW.
On December 10 2011 08:40 tubs wrote: Finally seeing the mortal side of fOrGG. He just went up against CJEntushydra (a current A+ class BW player) and has lost a few times in a row. His hyper aggressive style doesn't quite work on BW zergs.
Then again, he definitely seems to be fooling around and trying out timing attack builds, but it'd be interesting to see how he does against other Zergs that have solid defence.
Common... everybody know that is a obvious smurf.
The real Hydra is practicing broodwar, he plays proleague all weeks and have a salary.
On December 10 2011 08:40 tubs wrote: Finally seeing the mortal side of fOrGG. He just went up against CJEntushydra (a current A+ class BW player) and has lost a few times in a row. His hyper aggressive style doesn't quite work on BW zergs.
Then again, he definitely seems to be fooling around and trying out timing attack builds, but it'd be interesting to see how he does against other Zergs that have solid defence.
cjeH was getting a blind 2 spines every game without even needing to scout because forgg kept doing the same 4 hellions into banshee into thor push. When the hellions do no damage and kill no queens, his build is very manageable.
On December 10 2011 08:40 tubs wrote: Finally seeing the mortal side of fOrGG. He just went up against CJEntushydra (a current A+ class BW player) and has lost a few times in a row. His hyper aggressive style doesn't quite work on BW zergs.
Then again, he definitely seems to be fooling around and trying out timing attack builds, but it'd be interesting to see how he does against other Zergs that have solid defence.
On December 10 2011 08:40 tubs wrote: Finally seeing the mortal side of fOrGG. He just went up against CJEntushydra (a current A+ class BW player) and has lost a few times in a row. His hyper aggressive style doesn't quite work on BW zergs.
Then again, he definitely seems to be fooling around and trying out timing attack builds, but it'd be interesting to see how he does against other Zergs that have solid defence.
Well I would imagine that Hydra could beat ForGG in either game easily. He's a much better player than him
On December 10 2011 08:44 StarStruck wrote: Have you been following anything we've been saying in the CH thread with regards to practice on ladder and the fact that it's a pro's smurf account. ._.
Whoops no I haven't. Sorry for the mistake claiming that was Hydra. Didn't know it was a smurf.
I'm so happy that the hardcore Brood War junkies painted themselves into a corner. On one end, they've spent the last two years talking about some skill ceiling nonsense and coin-flip victories, and that StarCraft II is too volatile. All the while, these same players trumpet a narrative that "Once Flash and Fantasy and Jaedong switch over, everyone is going to get their ass kicked sooooo bad, lol!" So, either "StarCraft II has a low skill ceiling" or "The Brood War players are going to dominate, just like they always did"? Which one is going to blow up in their faces?
On December 10 2011 09:32 MichaelJLowell wrote: I'm so happy that the hardcore Brood War junkies painted themselves into a corner. On one end, they've spent the last two years talking about some skill ceiling nonsense and coin-flip victories, and that StarCraft II is too volatile. All the while, these same players trumpet a narrative that "Once Flash and Fantasy and Jaedong switch over, everyone is going to get their ass kicked sooooo bad, lol!" So, either "StarCraft II has a low skill ceiling" or "The Brood War players are going to dominate, just like they always did"? Which one is going to blow up in their faces?
The skill ceiling is low but no one has reached it yet, so the bw pros will be the first to reach it and dominate everyone?
I have just seen a few games on his stream so this might be abit off.. But does he ever go for upgrades and a longterm gameplan? Seems like he got a really narrow comfort zone.
edit. now he just did. but late and necessary, rather than late game mindset
On December 10 2011 09:35 Mpq wrote: I have just seen a few games on his stream so this might be abit off.. But does he ever go for upgrades and a longterm gameplan? Seems like he got a really narrow comfort zone.
He pretty much does timings every game, like hardcore timings where you can't expand behind them.
He might as well pull SCV with some of them.
He just failed to kill Stephanos third, so the game is 100% over.
On December 10 2011 09:32 MichaelJLowell wrote: I'm so happy that the hardcore Brood War junkies painted themselves into a corner. On one end, they've spent the last two years talking about some skill ceiling nonsense and coin-flip victories, and that StarCraft II is too volatile. All the while, these same players trumpet a narrative that "Once Flash and Fantasy and Jaedong switch over, everyone is going to get their ass kicked sooooo bad, lol!" So, either "StarCraft II has a low skill ceiling" or "The Brood War players are going to dominate, just like they always did"? Which one is going to blow up in their faces?
The skill ceiling is low but no one has reached it yet, so the bw pros will be the first to reach it and dominate everyone?
Works for me. Then we can just bombard the haters with "You guys weren't playing the game at a near-optimal level, anyway, so why should I take anything you say seriously?"
Dam, Stephano played well tht game. I would like like to see ForGG play a macro game tho, he's timings are really strong but i feel his mechanics are good enough to be a beast in the late game.
lol, don't take most things people on TL say seriously; I would go insane if I did. Not to derail
I'd like to see Forgg play a macro game. Or maybe his style is one that just avoids macro games? Maybe we've expected to see a macro game from Forgg when it's not the optimal playstyle for terran(?). Also his style is very similar every game, I feel like he has potential to get "figured out", but I fully expect him to have other builds that he isn't showing on stream.
On December 10 2011 09:32 MichaelJLowell wrote: I'm so happy that the hardcore Brood War junkies painted themselves into a corner. On one end, they've spent the last two years talking about some skill ceiling nonsense and coin-flip victories, and that StarCraft II is too volatile. All the while, these same players trumpet a narrative that "Once Flash and Fantasy and Jaedong switch over, everyone is going to get their ass kicked sooooo bad, lol!" So, either "StarCraft II has a low skill ceiling" or "The Brood War players are going to dominate, just like they always did"? Which one is going to blow up in their faces?
I love how people label BW players elitist fucks based off a few articles.
If you skimmed through the last few CH pages you would know I addressed such shit already.
There are skill ceilings in every game buck-o thus it isn't as nonsensical as you make it out to be.
ZvZ in BW is just as volatile as PvP in SC2.
I can go on. Since it's such an old topic though I rather not.
intrigue doesn't speak for everyone. You are basing shit off of someone's article.
I don't feel like going back in the CH thread and re-quoting myself but a lot of the information is there with regards to the four pillars and what I think will happen.
I refuse to repeat myself again, so happy hunting.
On December 10 2011 09:42 GreatestThreat wrote: Stephano just ROLLED holy shit..
That's what happens when all you run the same opening blindly every game ^_^
Seems like he has almost no transition into mid to late game, and relies heavily on just out macroing/microing his opponents into the ground on ladder. His GSL games though look very different, with him having very distinct timings and transitions out of those timings.
On December 10 2011 09:42 GreatestThreat wrote: Stephano just ROLLED holy shit..
That's what happens when all you run the same opening blindly every game ^_^
Seems like he has almost no transition into mid to late game, and relies heavily on just out macroing/microing his opponents into the ground on ladder. His GSL games though look very different, with him having very distinct timings and transitions out of those timings.
Yeah I honestly think he's just practicing mechanics at this point and trying to trick people into thinking he only has one build.
On December 10 2011 09:54 StarStruck wrote: They aren't trying to trick anybody.
This is what they did in BW as well.
Practice one static/safe build so they know it like the back of their hand. Branch out after.
The opening he is doing is to practice his mechanics and not much else.
Yeah the build he's running focuses heavily on harassing while macroing behind it. Seems like a good build to run if you are just trying to improve your mechanics.
On December 10 2011 08:40 tubs wrote: Finally seeing the mortal side of fOrGG. He just went up against CJEntushydra (a current A+ class BW player) and has lost a few times in a row. His hyper aggressive style doesn't quite work on BW zergs.
Then again, he definitely seems to be fooling around and trying out timing attack builds, but it'd be interesting to see how he does against other Zergs that have solid defence.
Well I would imagine that Hydra could beat ForGG in either game easily. He's a much better player than him
intrigue doesn't speak for everyone. You are basing shit off of someone's article.
I actually choose my words based on eight years of observing StarCraft message boards, all of which have been more deathly afraid of change than the last and opposed every single interesting game mechanic designed to replace the depth created by the user interface restrictions (twelve-unit selection, single-building selection, etc.) that Brood War players speak of in reverential tones. My position on the topic is rooted in a longer history than you think.
intrigue doesn't speak for everyone. You are basing shit off of someone's article.
I actually choose my words based on eight years of observing StarCraft message boards, all of which have been more deathly afraid of change than the last and opposed every single interesting game mechanic designed to replace the depth created by the user interface restrictions (twelve-unit selection, single-building selection, etc.) that Brood War players speak of in reverential tones. My position on the topic is rooted in a longer history than you think.
Then you are completely full of shit. I remember you very well when SC2 was announced. I've been around since the beginning buck-o and like I just said, I know what you are all about.
Sweeping generalizations get us nowhere. Plus, now you're going on a different tangent in general (U.I.? Pllllleassse) and dismissed the previous points I've made (skim the last eight pages of the CH thread and tell me otherwise)
You want to continue to spin doctor things like you did in the 4 MBS versus non-MBS threads that went on for hundreds of pages each then go ahead. Make my day.
Your words have as much meaning as they did back then. Usually people grow. Unfortunately your still stuck in past. ._.
I'll make it easier for you to find what I said in the CH thread. In short, if the four pillars do crossover. I expect one thing and one thing only: more competition at the top end. Certain players will get left behind. Nothing more; nothing less.
So stop with your sweeping generalizations already. It's getting fucking old.
On December 10 2011 08:40 tubs wrote: Finally seeing the mortal side of fOrGG. He just went up against CJEntushydra (a current A+ class BW player) and has lost a few times in a row. His hyper aggressive style doesn't quite work on BW zergs.
Then again, he definitely seems to be fooling around and trying out timing attack builds, but it'd be interesting to see how he does against other Zergs that have solid defence.
Well I would imagine that Hydra could beat ForGG in either game easily. He's a much better player than him
How can you say that Hydra can EASILY beat Forgg in sc2? What 100% factual information do you have on Hydra's Starcraft 2 play?
I am very sure that fOrGG has more than one build/style or ability or whatever you want to say in order to play this game. He's probably practicing this build until it's perfect and he can react to anything/everything his opponent does. Then he will move onto another build and do the exact same.
These guys play the damn game for a living, I am 100% sure that they know how to train better than any of us
On December 10 2011 08:40 tubs wrote: Finally seeing the mortal side of fOrGG. He just went up against CJEntushydra (a current A+ class BW player) and has lost a few times in a row. His hyper aggressive style doesn't quite work on BW zergs.
Then again, he definitely seems to be fooling around and trying out timing attack builds, but it'd be interesting to see how he does against other Zergs that have solid defence.
Well I would imagine that Hydra could beat ForGG in either game easily. He's a much better player than him
How can you say that Hydra can EASILY beat Forgg in sc2? What 100% factual data do you have on Hydra's Starcraft 2 skill?
INC arguements about BW pros beating BW pros in sc2 now hahahahahaha
Seriously it's getting out of control and it's just hilarious
"Oh yeah he was a-teamer, well this guy is a higher a-teamer, well this guy was a lower-s class player, well this giuy was a mid-range s class player" and it'll go on forever until some 16 year old kid with no experiance in ethier one will come in and wipe the floor with every single BW/SC2 player and we'll forget about ethier ones every existing. Probably not for another couple years though.
On December 10 2011 08:40 tubs wrote: Finally seeing the mortal side of fOrGG. He just went up against CJEntushydra (a current A+ class BW player) and has lost a few times in a row. His hyper aggressive style doesn't quite work on BW zergs.
Then again, he definitely seems to be fooling around and trying out timing attack builds, but it'd be interesting to see how he does against other Zergs that have solid defence.
Well I would imagine that Hydra could beat ForGG in either game easily. He's a much better player than him
How can you say that Hydra can EASILY beat Forgg in sc2? What 100% factual data do you have on Hydra's Starcraft 2 skill?
INC arguements about BW pros beating BW pros in sc2 now hahahahahaha
Seriously it's getting out of control and it's just hilarious
"Oh yeah he was a-teamer, well this guy is a higher a-teamer, well this guy was a lower-s class player, well this giuy was a mid-range s class player" and it'll go on forever
I've honestly never made a post on that subject. Also, I wasn't trying to start an argument about who's better (BW pros or sc2 pros). His post just didn't make a bit of sense if you really think about it.
You want to continue to spin doctor things like you did in the 4 MBS versus non-MBS threads that went on for hundreds of pages each then go ahead. Make my day.
My first post on this forum was in July of 2010. What the blue piss of Manner Mary are you talking about?
On December 10 2011 10:18 Boblion wrote: I think he just wants to play warcraft IV.
I would have liked to play a better real-time strategy game than Warcraft II, StarCraft: Brood War, or Warcraft III: The Frozen Throne, but I guess you can't win them all!
On December 10 2011 08:40 tubs wrote: Finally seeing the mortal side of fOrGG. He just went up against CJEntushydra (a current A+ class BW player) and has lost a few times in a row. His hyper aggressive style doesn't quite work on BW zergs.
Then again, he definitely seems to be fooling around and trying out timing attack builds, but it'd be interesting to see how he does against other Zergs that have solid defence.
Well I would imagine that Hydra could beat ForGG in either game easily. He's a much better player than him
How can you say that Hydra can EASILY beat Forgg in sc2? What 100% factual information do you have on Hydra's Starcraft 2 play?
that hydra is a really fucking good bw player, and he has an injury in one eye iirc.
Does hydra stream? I'd be interested. Also stop with these nonsense BW vs SC2 posts! It doesn't matter if Fin is gonna win GSL or not, he's already doing a great job raising the skill ceiling and so will probably other BW pros if they switch over. SC2 is considered to be easier because it's new and not figured out and didn't have an expansion yet that might introduce new wonderful units.
On December 10 2011 08:40 tubs wrote: Finally seeing the mortal side of fOrGG. He just went up against CJEntushydra (a current A+ class BW player) and has lost a few times in a row. His hyper aggressive style doesn't quite work on BW zergs.
Then again, he definitely seems to be fooling around and trying out timing attack builds, but it'd be interesting to see how he does against other Zergs that have solid defence.
Well I would imagine that Hydra could beat ForGG in either game easily. He's a much better player than him
How can you say that Hydra can EASILY beat Forgg in sc2? What 100% factual data do you have on Hydra's Starcraft 2 skill?
INC arguements about BW pros beating BW pros in sc2 now hahahahahaha
Seriously it's getting out of control and it's just hilarious
"Oh yeah he was a-teamer, well this guy is a higher a-teamer, well this guy was a lower-s class player, well this giuy was a mid-range s class player" and it'll go on forever until some 16 year old kid with no experiance in ethier one will come in and wipe the floor with every single BW/SC2 player and we'll forget about ethier ones every existing. Probably not for another couple years though.
Do you realize you just said a 16 year old with no experience in EITHER game(including SC2 in that statement there), will come one day and beat everyone at SC2? Come now, at least make some sense in your post. And assuming that previous RTS experience and talent has any correlation at all on performance(which, you know, almost every pro who has any sort of winning record has some RTS experience under the belt), then Hydra beating fOrGG based off of that assumption doesn't seem so farfetched.
On December 10 2011 08:40 tubs wrote: Finally seeing the mortal side of fOrGG. He just went up against CJEntushydra (a current A+ class BW player) and has lost a few times in a row. His hyper aggressive style doesn't quite work on BW zergs.
Then again, he definitely seems to be fooling around and trying out timing attack builds, but it'd be interesting to see how he does against other Zergs that have solid defence.
Well I would imagine that Hydra could beat ForGG in either game easily. He's a much better player than him
How can you say that Hydra can EASILY beat Forgg in sc2? What 100% factual data do you have on Hydra's Starcraft 2 skill?
INC arguements about BW pros beating BW pros in sc2 now hahahahahaha
Seriously it's getting out of control and it's just hilarious
"Oh yeah he was a-teamer, well this guy is a higher a-teamer, well this guy was a lower-s class player, well this giuy was a mid-range s class player" and it'll go on forever until some 16 year old kid with no experiance in ethier one will come in and wipe the floor with every single BW/SC2 player and we'll forget about ethier ones every existing. Probably not for another couple years though.
Do you realize you just said a 16 year old with no experience in EITHER game(including SC2 in that statement there), will come one day and beat everyone at SC2? Come now, at least make some sense in your post. And assuming that previous RTS experience and talent has any correlation at all on performance(which, you know, almost every pro who has any sort of winning record has some RTS experience under the belt), then Hydra beating fOrGG based off of that assumption doesn't seem so farfetched.
I thought that's how Flash came about? Out of nowhere at the age of 15? The guy you quote has already stated that it wouldn't happen for a couple more years, and it's not that improbable.
On December 10 2011 08:40 tubs wrote: Finally seeing the mortal side of fOrGG. He just went up against CJEntushydra (a current A+ class BW player) and has lost a few times in a row. His hyper aggressive style doesn't quite work on BW zergs.
Then again, he definitely seems to be fooling around and trying out timing attack builds, but it'd be interesting to see how he does against other Zergs that have solid defence.
Well I would imagine that Hydra could beat ForGG in either game easily. He's a much better player than him
How can you say that Hydra can EASILY beat Forgg in sc2? What 100% factual data do you have on Hydra's Starcraft 2 skill?
INC arguements about BW pros beating BW pros in sc2 now hahahahahaha
Seriously it's getting out of control and it's just hilarious
"Oh yeah he was a-teamer, well this guy is a higher a-teamer, well this guy was a lower-s class player, well this giuy was a mid-range s class player" and it'll go on forever until some 16 year old kid with no experiance in ethier one will come in and wipe the floor with every single BW/SC2 player and we'll forget about ethier ones every existing. Probably not for another couple years though.
Do you realize you just said a 16 year old with no experience in EITHER game(including SC2 in that statement there), will come one day and beat everyone at SC2? Come now, at least make some sense in your post. And assuming that previous RTS experience and talent has any correlation at all on performance(which, you know, almost every pro who has any sort of winning record has some RTS experience under the belt), then Hydra beating fOrGG based off of that assumption doesn't seem so farfetched.
I thought that's how Flash came about? Out of nowhere at the age of 15? The guy you quote has already stated that it wouldn't happen for a couple more years, and it's not that improbable.
I was pointing out that his statement was illogical because he stated that the kid would have no experience in SC2 as well. Flash had a ton of experience before he signed on with KT. His statement basically says that the kid will pick up the game and magically become god the first time he plays it, whether that was his intention or not.
On December 10 2011 08:40 tubs wrote: Finally seeing the mortal side of fOrGG. He just went up against CJEntushydra (a current A+ class BW player) and has lost a few times in a row. His hyper aggressive style doesn't quite work on BW zergs.
Then again, he definitely seems to be fooling around and trying out timing attack builds, but it'd be interesting to see how he does against other Zergs that have solid defence.
Well I would imagine that Hydra could beat ForGG in either game easily. He's a much better player than him
How can you say that Hydra can EASILY beat Forgg in sc2? What 100% factual data do you have on Hydra's Starcraft 2 skill?
INC arguements about BW pros beating BW pros in sc2 now hahahahahaha
Seriously it's getting out of control and it's just hilarious
"Oh yeah he was a-teamer, well this guy is a higher a-teamer, well this guy was a lower-s class player, well this giuy was a mid-range s class player" and it'll go on forever until some 16 year old kid with no experiance in ethier one will come in and wipe the floor with every single BW/SC2 player and we'll forget about ethier ones every existing. Probably not for another couple years though.
Do you realize you just said a 16 year old with no experience in EITHER game(including SC2 in that statement there), will come one day and beat everyone at SC2? Come now, at least make some sense in your post. And assuming that previous RTS experience and talent has any correlation at all on performance(which, you know, almost every pro who has any sort of winning record has some RTS experience under the belt), then Hydra beating fOrGG based off of that assumption doesn't seem so farfetched.
I thought that's how Flash came about? Out of nowhere at the age of 15? The guy you quote has already stated that it wouldn't happen for a couple more years, and it's not that improbable.
I was pointing out that his statement was illogical because he stated that the kid would have no experience in SC2 as well. Flash had a ton of experience before he signed on with KT. His statement basically says that the kid will pick up the game and magically become god the first time he plays it, whether that was his intention or not.
Oh god talk about taking what he wrote waaaaaaaaay too literal LOL
On December 10 2011 08:40 tubs wrote: Finally seeing the mortal side of fOrGG. He just went up against CJEntushydra (a current A+ class BW player) and has lost a few times in a row. His hyper aggressive style doesn't quite work on BW zergs.
Then again, he definitely seems to be fooling around and trying out timing attack builds, but it'd be interesting to see how he does against other Zergs that have solid defence.
Well I would imagine that Hydra could beat ForGG in either game easily. He's a much better player than him
How can you say that Hydra can EASILY beat Forgg in sc2? What 100% factual data do you have on Hydra's Starcraft 2 skill?
INC arguements about BW pros beating BW pros in sc2 now hahahahahaha
Seriously it's getting out of control and it's just hilarious
"Oh yeah he was a-teamer, well this guy is a higher a-teamer, well this guy was a lower-s class player, well this giuy was a mid-range s class player" and it'll go on forever until some 16 year old kid with no experiance in ethier one will come in and wipe the floor with every single BW/SC2 player and we'll forget about ethier ones every existing. Probably not for another couple years though.
Do you realize you just said a 16 year old with no experience in EITHER game(including SC2 in that statement there), will come one day and beat everyone at SC2? Come now, at least make some sense in your post. And assuming that previous RTS experience and talent has any correlation at all on performance(which, you know, almost every pro who has any sort of winning record has some RTS experience under the belt), then Hydra beating fOrGG based off of that assumption doesn't seem so farfetched.
I thought that's how Flash came about? Out of nowhere at the age of 15? The guy you quote has already stated that it wouldn't happen for a couple more years, and it's not that improbable.
I was pointing out that his statement was illogical because he stated that the kid would have no experience in SC2 as well. Flash had a ton of experience before he signed on with KT. His statement basically says that the kid will pick up the game and magically become god the first time he plays it, whether that was his intention or not.
I think hes saying that it's highly possible that a young player (who might only be 10 years old right now, and at this moment may never have played BW/SC2) may one day be the best SC2 player in the world.
It sounds crazy, but that is basically the same story of Flash taking over the BW scene.
On December 10 2011 08:40 tubs wrote: Finally seeing the mortal side of fOrGG. He just went up against CJEntushydra (a current A+ class BW player) and has lost a few times in a row. His hyper aggressive style doesn't quite work on BW zergs.
Then again, he definitely seems to be fooling around and trying out timing attack builds, but it'd be interesting to see how he does against other Zergs that have solid defence.
Well I would imagine that Hydra could beat ForGG in either game easily. He's a much better player than him
How can you say that Hydra can EASILY beat Forgg in sc2? What 100% factual data do you have on Hydra's Starcraft 2 skill?
INC arguements about BW pros beating BW pros in sc2 now hahahahahaha
Seriously it's getting out of control and it's just hilarious
"Oh yeah he was a-teamer, well this guy is a higher a-teamer, well this guy was a lower-s class player, well this giuy was a mid-range s class player" and it'll go on forever until some 16 year old kid with no experiance in ethier one will come in and wipe the floor with every single BW/SC2 player and we'll forget about ethier ones every existing. Probably not for another couple years though.
Do you realize you just said a 16 year old with no experience in EITHER game(including SC2 in that statement there), will come one day and beat everyone at SC2? Come now, at least make some sense in your post. And assuming that previous RTS experience and talent has any correlation at all on performance(which, you know, almost every pro who has any sort of winning record has some RTS experience under the belt), then Hydra beating fOrGG based off of that assumption doesn't seem so farfetched.
I thought that's how Flash came about? Out of nowhere at the age of 15? The guy you quote has already stated that it wouldn't happen for a couple more years, and it's not that improbable.
I was pointing out that his statement was illogical because he stated that the kid would have no experience in SC2 as well. Flash had a ton of experience before he signed on with KT. His statement basically says that the kid will pick up the game and magically become god the first time he plays it, whether that was his intention or not.
I think hes saying that it's highly possible that a young player (who might only be 10 years old right now, and at this moment may never have played BW/SC2) may one day be the best SC2 player in the world.
It sounds crazy, but that is basically the same story of Flash taking over the BW scene.
I don't think it sounds crazy at all, every good player essentially came out of nowhere at one point.
On December 10 2011 08:40 tubs wrote: Finally seeing the mortal side of fOrGG. He just went up against CJEntushydra (a current A+ class BW player) and has lost a few times in a row. His hyper aggressive style doesn't quite work on BW zergs.
Then again, he definitely seems to be fooling around and trying out timing attack builds, but it'd be interesting to see how he does against other Zergs that have solid defence.
Well I would imagine that Hydra could beat ForGG in either game easily. He's a much better player than him
How can you say that Hydra can EASILY beat Forgg in sc2? What 100% factual data do you have on Hydra's Starcraft 2 skill?
INC arguements about BW pros beating BW pros in sc2 now hahahahahaha
Seriously it's getting out of control and it's just hilarious
"Oh yeah he was a-teamer, well this guy is a higher a-teamer, well this guy was a lower-s class player, well this giuy was a mid-range s class player" and it'll go on forever until some 16 year old kid with no experiance in ethier one will come in and wipe the floor with every single BW/SC2 player and we'll forget about ethier ones every existing. Probably not for another couple years though.
Do you realize you just said a 16 year old with no experience in EITHER game(including SC2 in that statement there), will come one day and beat everyone at SC2? Come now, at least make some sense in your post. And assuming that previous RTS experience and talent has any correlation at all on performance(which, you know, almost every pro who has any sort of winning record has some RTS experience under the belt), then Hydra beating fOrGG based off of that assumption doesn't seem so farfetched.
I thought that's how Flash came about? Out of nowhere at the age of 15? The guy you quote has already stated that it wouldn't happen for a couple more years, and it's not that improbable.
I was pointing out that his statement was illogical because he stated that the kid would have no experience in SC2 as well. Flash had a ton of experience before he signed on with KT. His statement basically says that the kid will pick up the game and magically become god the first time he plays it, whether that was his intention or not.
I think hes saying that it's highly possible that a young player (who might only be 10 years old right now, and at this moment may never have played BW/SC2) may one day be the best SC2 player in the world.
It sounds crazy, but that is basically the same story of Flash taking over the BW scene.
Yes, I know Flash's background story very well. And I did take that statement very literally because well, the way it was written did not make for a good argument. While I understand the intention, his way of getting it across was inefficient. Yes, there will be new players who will one day dominate the scene due to their dedication and hard work. Because that's what history has shown us time and time again.
On December 10 2011 08:40 tubs wrote: Finally seeing the mortal side of fOrGG. He just went up against CJEntushydra (a current A+ class BW player) and has lost a few times in a row. His hyper aggressive style doesn't quite work on BW zergs.
Then again, he definitely seems to be fooling around and trying out timing attack builds, but it'd be interesting to see how he does against other Zergs that have solid defence.
Well I would imagine that Hydra could beat ForGG in either game easily. He's a much better player than him
How can you say that Hydra can EASILY beat Forgg in sc2? What 100% factual data do you have on Hydra's Starcraft 2 skill?
INC arguements about BW pros beating BW pros in sc2 now hahahahahaha
Seriously it's getting out of control and it's just hilarious
"Oh yeah he was a-teamer, well this guy is a higher a-teamer, well this guy was a lower-s class player, well this giuy was a mid-range s class player" and it'll go on forever until some 16 year old kid with no experiance in ethier one will come in and wipe the floor with every single BW/SC2 player and we'll forget about ethier ones every existing. Probably not for another couple years though.
Do you realize you just said a 16 year old with no experience in EITHER game(including SC2 in that statement there), will come one day and beat everyone at SC2? Come now, at least make some sense in your post. And assuming that previous RTS experience and talent has any correlation at all on performance(which, you know, almost every pro who has any sort of winning record has some RTS experience under the belt), then Hydra beating fOrGG based off of that assumption doesn't seem so farfetched.
I thought that's how Flash came about? Out of nowhere at the age of 15? The guy you quote has already stated that it wouldn't happen for a couple more years, and it's not that improbable.
I was pointing out that his statement was illogical because he stated that the kid would have no experience in SC2 as well. Flash had a ton of experience before he signed on with KT. His statement basically says that the kid will pick up the game and magically become god the first time he plays it, whether that was his intention or not.
I think hes saying that it's highly possible that a young player (who might only be 10 years old right now, and at this moment may never have played BW/SC2) may one day be the best SC2 player in the world.
It sounds crazy, but that is basically the same story of Flash taking over the BW scene.
I HIGHLY doubt it's the real BW Hydra, who's still on CJ Entus and appeared in Proleague a few days ago. I just can't see Hydra juggle BW proleague demands while also raping Korean GMs in SC2 at the same time, not even for a close-to-S-Class player.
Could someone please tell me why he hotkeys only 1 CC and has the other one bound to 9 or 0? TT Makes me sad he's playing the game like this and making it harder on himeslf.
On December 11 2011 04:27 HardMacro wrote: Was that really CJ Entus' Hydra playing ForGG?
I HIGHLY doubt it's the real BW Hydra, who's still on CJ Entus and appeared in Proleague a few days ago. I just can't see Hydra juggle BW proleague demands while also raping Korean GMs in SC2 at the same time, not even for a close-to-S-Class player.
It looked like Leenock's style of play so it was probably a Leenock smurf.
Hydra is ranked #2 by KeSPA for recent performance such as winning an MSL. He's pretty close to S-class.
He's especially brutal against zergs with his hellion openings into cloacked banshee into thors right when mutas arrive in his main, he's able to constantly apply pressure on zerg opponent
On December 11 2011 08:03 Odoakar wrote: He's especially brutal against zergs with his hellion openings into cloacked banshee into thors right when mutas arrive in his main, he's able to constantly apply pressure on zerg opponent
The funny thing is he needs like 20 drone kills otherwise he'll probably lose the game.
On December 11 2011 08:03 Odoakar wrote: He's especially brutal against zergs with his hellion openings into cloacked banshee into thors right when mutas arrive in his main, he's able to constantly apply pressure on zerg opponent
The funny thing is he needs like 20 drone kills otherwise he'll probably lose the game.
You need to kill drones when you do hellion into banshee openers?! no way!
It's a build to punish ppl that play so greedy, which most people do in the current metagame. It's not rocket science that you need to do damage to make it work aswell...
On December 11 2011 07:15 ProxyKnoxy wrote: From watching his stream he is one of the cheesiest people I have ever seen :O
but my god is that scary
I don't consider him to be a cheeser, he just has an ULTRA AGGRESSIVE style that takes advantage of his micro and multi tasking. Look at his TVZ style. You might think that opening up reactor hellion into cloaked banshee as cheesy, but with this style, forgg never allows the zerg to establish an economy because he is always killing drones directly or indirectly by forcing a lot of lings or sniping queens which throws off inject timings.
On December 11 2011 07:15 ProxyKnoxy wrote: From watching his stream he is one of the cheesiest people I have ever seen :O
but my god is that scary
I don't consider him to be a cheeser, he just has an ULTRA AGGRESSIVE style that takes advantage of his micro and multi tasking. Look at his TVZ style. You might think that opening up reactor hellion into cloaked banshee as cheesy, but with this style, forgg never allows the zerg to establish an economy because he is always killing drones directly or indirectly by forcing a lot of lings or sniping queens which throws off inject timings.
Pretty sure (s)he was referring to all the proxy rax's, 1/1/1's, mass rax all ins etc that he does. They're pretty frequent xD
On December 11 2011 08:35 theBizness wrote: People are surprised by cheesy play? It's just ladder.
He does this to put as many ads in as possible. Streaming is not training, it is a source of income for him. I can't blame him for that since he hasn't got any major victories and money in his pocket.
Well, were you gonna watch the bnet screen or the loading ? I usually switch tabs until I hear game sounds so.... ad or not is fine ! Let him get money and provide us good games :p
On December 11 2011 06:59 Itsmedudeman wrote: Could someone please tell me why he hotkeys only 1 CC and has the other one bound to 9 or 0? TT Makes me sad he's playing the game like this and making it harder on himeslf.
And no, it was not the real hydra.
You realize you can rebind your keys, don't you? But in game shows ad its original keycap, eg I have [0] rebinded to the tilde [`] key and it shows as 0 in game. I have my back button on my mouse as [9].
I mean I'm not a good player by any stretch but watching his stream I am noticing quite a few patterns.
Very handy for whoever has to play him in his next game. Very good player, but wonder how he'll be when opponents start analysing his games.
I would sort of facepalm if he used these builds in GSL. It's just so out there and available for everyone to see. No reason not to expect at least one member from every team to have tuned in a few times to watch.
Earlier he displayed an amazing mass-rax-expand-no-gas build against CrazymoviNG. The stream is entertaining for what it is: ladder practice of a very promising player.
i'm surprised so many people expect him to be playing with his tip-top build with epic focus on the ladder. Real training goes on offline. Its pretty obvious when hes opening the same EVERY game and is suiciding hellions like he doesnt care.
Epic control though for someone so relatively fresh. Cant wait to see him in the next couple months once hes practiced more.
On December 11 2011 12:12 mapleleafs791 wrote: i'm surprised so many people expect him to be playing with his tip-top build with epic focus on the ladder. Real training goes on offline. Its pretty obvious when hes opening the same EVERY game and is suiciding hellions like he doesnt care.
Epic control though for someone so relatively fresh. Cant wait to see him in the next couple months once hes practiced more.
He is playing SC2 for a long time now. I remember him playing Huk on ladder several months ago.
On December 11 2011 12:12 mapleleafs791 wrote: i'm surprised so many people expect him to be playing with his tip-top build with epic focus on the ladder. Real training goes on offline. Its pretty obvious when hes opening the same EVERY game and is suiciding hellions like he doesnt care.
Epic control though for someone so relatively fresh. Cant wait to see him in the next couple months once hes practiced more.
He is playing SC2 for a long time now. I remember him playing Huk on ladder several months ago.
I am aware of the 8 months or so, all i am saying is compared to the gamers that have been playing since the beta hes pretty sick. I am aware of his pedigree but im just giving the guy a compliment since it is starcraft not BW hes playing and hes not familiar with the game.
Also im sure laddering is a joke to him. His games in GSL are nothing like the ladder. Thats why i cant wait to see him in a couple months, if hes only been training in a team house for a couple months i cant wait to see him after half a year. With the kind of practice regimen he is used to ladder is much milder practice. I cant wait to see him fully acclimated and focused
On December 10 2011 09:42 GreatestThreat wrote: Stephano just ROLLED holy shit..
That's what happens when all you run the same opening blindly every game ^_^
Seems like he has almost no transition into mid to late game, and relies heavily on just out macroing/microing his opponents into the ground on ladder. His GSL games though look very different, with him having very distinct timings and transitions out of those timings.
Yeah I honestly think he's just practicing mechanics at this point and trying to trick people into thinking he only has one build.
If you were a progamer, would you be tricked that he only had one build? lmao
On December 11 2011 23:55 tallyhohugo wrote: well. forgg just lost to yonghwa. i guess he's not the best player in the world.
/gg
Who said he's the best player in the world? And besides, why would losing a single game decide that he's not the best player (assuming that he was, which he's not)? MVP and Nestea never lost a game?
On December 11 2011 23:55 tallyhohugo wrote: well. forgg just lost to yonghwa. i guess he's not the best player in the world.
/gg
This isn't the Stephano thread before the rename. This thread doesn't claim that he's the best, it claims that he's one of the best. And from his cookie cutter builds on ladder alone, you can definitely see that.
On December 11 2011 23:55 tallyhohugo wrote: well. forgg just lost to yonghwa. i guess he's not the best player in the world.
/gg
This isn't the Stephano thread before the rename. This thread doesn't claim that he's the best, it claims that he's one of the best. And from his cookie cutter builds on ladder alone, you can definitely see that.
I'm sorry but MVP, NesTea or MC would never lose to someone like Youngwha.
On December 11 2011 23:55 tallyhohugo wrote: well. forgg just lost to yonghwa. i guess he's not the best player in the world.
/gg
This isn't the Stephano thread before the rename. This thread doesn't claim that he's the best, it claims that he's one of the best. And from his cookie cutter builds on ladder alone, you can definitely see that.
I'm sorry but MVP, NesTea or MC would never lose to someone like Youngwha.
They've lost to worse toss players. Like Tails for example.
On December 11 2011 23:55 tallyhohugo wrote: well. forgg just lost to yonghwa. i guess he's not the best player in the world.
/gg
This isn't the Stephano thread before the rename. This thread doesn't claim that he's the best, it claims that he's one of the best. And from his cookie cutter builds on ladder alone, you can definitely see that.
I'm sorry but MVP, NesTea or MC would never lose to someone like Youngwha.
Since your referring to Bo1s
MVP would never lose to someone like Tails. Nestea would never lose to someone like Tails Huk or Sc or Bbong Bbong. MC will never lose to someone like noblesse or fenix.
Except they all did. You look at winning percentages, quality of play, not take 1 random result and extrapolate it.
On December 10 2011 09:42 GreatestThreat wrote: Stephano just ROLLED holy shit..
That's what happens when all you run the same opening blindly every game ^_^
Seems like he has almost no transition into mid to late game, and relies heavily on just out macroing/microing his opponents into the ground on ladder. His GSL games though look very different, with him having very distinct timings and transitions out of those timings.
Yeah I honestly think he's just practicing mechanics at this point and trying to trick people into thinking he only has one build.
If you were a progamer, would you be tricked that he only had one build? lmao
You'd be suprised how 1demsional some of these guys are
On December 11 2011 23:55 tallyhohugo wrote: well. forgg just lost to yonghwa. i guess he's not the best player in the world.
/gg
This isn't the Stephano thread before the rename. This thread doesn't claim that he's the best, it claims that he's one of the best. And from his cookie cutter builds on ladder alone, you can definitely see that.
I'm sorry but MVP, NesTea or MC would never lose to someone like Youngwha.
On December 11 2011 23:55 tallyhohugo wrote: well. forgg just lost to yonghwa. i guess he's not the best player in the world.
/gg
This isn't the Stephano thread before the rename. This thread doesn't claim that he's the best, it claims that he's one of the best. And from his cookie cutter builds on ladder alone, you can definitely see that.
I'm sorry but MVP, NesTea or MC would never lose to someone like Youngwha.
On December 11 2011 23:55 tallyhohugo wrote: well. forgg just lost to yonghwa. i guess he's not the best player in the world.
/gg
Yeah you define a player with a single game... Such an idiotic comment.
It's going to happen though, every time he wins people will be like OMFG BW players so gosu next bonjwa "BW is Coming", then whenever he loses a game, people that get pissed off by all the constant hyping will be quick to dismiss him in threads such as this
On December 11 2011 23:55 tallyhohugo wrote: well. forgg just lost to yonghwa. i guess he's not the best player in the world.
/gg
This isn't the Stephano thread before the rename. This thread doesn't claim that he's the best, it claims that he's one of the best. And from his cookie cutter builds on ladder alone, you can definitely see that.
I'm sorry but MVP, NesTea or MC would never lose to someone like Youngwha.
lol what? Yonghwa is one of the best protosses stuck in Code B unfortunately. He is fully capable of taking games out of all three you mentioned, he is even above MC in korean TLPD...
On December 12 2011 01:40 Ammanas wrote: lol what? Yonghwa is one of the best protosses stuck in Code B unfortunately. He is fully capable of taking games out of all three you mentioned, he is even above MC in korean TLPD...
Well, according to korean TLPD Squirtle is higher than Oz, MC, Puzzle, Taeja, sC, GanZi, aLive, Polt and the subject of this thread, fOrGG.
Looking at TLPD only gives you a vague idea of who the best is, tbh.
On December 11 2011 23:55 tallyhohugo wrote: well. forgg just lost to yonghwa. i guess he's not the best player in the world.
/gg
This isn't the Stephano thread before the rename. This thread doesn't claim that he's the best, it claims that he's one of the best. And from his cookie cutter builds on ladder alone, you can definitely see that.
I'm sorry but MVP, NesTea or MC would never lose to someone like Youngwha.
EPT
fOrGG, the ex broadwar progamer. Apparently he has been playing starcraft 2 for almost a year now, but this is the first season we have in the GSL, and he is on tear.
Sage, 
July, clinching his spot in code S for the next season. In each he won 2-0, and all of the games were incredibly one sided. 
iloveoov
)
Plus, some players play different online and in the booth. ie..see MVP are some of his awful online games in 1st AOL. ![[image loading]](http://makeagif.com/media/12-06-2011/OhwtVH.gif)
![[image loading]](http://i533.photobucket.com/albums/ee336/brlemm/BWBanjos.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/eofpt.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i28.tinypic.com/o9ej3s.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Jherh.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ReVWP.jpg)
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