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The question of which game is easier or not is never going to end, sadly most people will never have the realization that it actually has no consequence on either game as an e-sport.
The human brain is not a good multitasker. The more things we attempt to do and remember at the same time the frequency with which we make mistakes increase. Both Starcraft 2 and Broodwar are massively complex games, complex enough that playing either one perfectly without making mistakes is in all likeliness physically impossible. A simplification would be to say that the difficulty of a game is related to the number of possible tasks you need to perform at the same time or in a compressed space of time, tasks would be both actual input and decisions that you make. To say out loud that either game is easier I feel is not quite possible because you need to factor in a vast amount of variables into this. Macromechanically starcraft 2 is definitely easier than broodwar. There are more inputs that you need to make to macro perfectly. In terms of micro it is harder to say, races are different, overall army control is easier in sc2 due to infinite size controlgroups, on the other hand there are micro tasks like marine splitting that you did not have to do in broodwar. Starcraft 2 is while easier to control faster than broodwar. By faster I don't mean how fast the units move or how fast you need to play, I am talking about how quickly a move by your opponent will have a massive impact unless you react. Once again banelings is a good example I guess, hellion drops and just that stuff dies faster in sc2. But then there are things that are harder in broodwar etc etc.
BUT THIS IS THE IMPORTANT PART
Let us just say that Broodwar is more difficult. Let's for the sake of the argument just decide that overall, you need to perform more tasks in broodwar to play perfectly and thus the risk of making mistakes is higher. This is actually completely irrelevant though.
UNLESS the game is simple enough to be played perfectly, then the actual skill roof does not have an impact on top level competition because no one can ever play either game perfectly.
The difference in difficulty will mainly have an impact on the learning curve and result in people improving faster. It is unlikely that the number of pro's and players on that level are actually different between the games but it is quite likely that the number of very skilled players but still a few levels below pro's would be higher in sc2 compared to bw.
People love to throw around words like skill ceiling like it is a holy symbol of competitive gaming. But the term is used completely wrong. If you are talking about the skill ceiling as a factor of how good you could possibly be at the game, that ceiling is higher than human capacity in both games so you can never reach it regardless. If the ceiling were low enough that you could play the game perfectly like it is with chess then that might be considered a problem but since this is not the case the entire argument is a waste of time.
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watch this dude's stream.
its proof that he is in a league of his own.
Some kind of crazy win rate in the last few hours, I've only seen like 2-3 loses total since I started watching and doing work at 8pm EST
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On December 09 2011 14:47 IMoperator wrote:
He doesn't look too impressive from his stream, he does a lot of bunker rushes or all ins on one base, not many macro games.
And he's still winning nearly all his games. What does that say about SC2?
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Dude, leave poor Geoff alone. I know a lot of people like to make fun of him, but seriously its not cool to do that.
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On December 09 2011 14:50 DarkMatter_ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2011 14:47 IMoperator wrote:
He doesn't look too impressive from his stream, he does a lot of bunker rushes or all ins on one base, not many macro games. And he's still winning nearly all his games. What does that say about SC2?
That all ins are strong? I haven't seen any of this "BW genius" from him. I mean, right now he is 2 rax proxying a zerg -_- It's not to say he's not good, he'd destroy me in an instant but he doesn't seem any different than any KR masters/gm that I've seen.
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On December 09 2011 14:33 JohnnyPG wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2011 14:25 setzer wrote:On December 09 2011 14:23 DarkMatter_ wrote:On December 09 2011 14:21 Zzoram wrote:
SC2 is mechanically easier than Broodwar but it's not easier to win, because everyone benefits from that advantage.
Strategically, there are more viable units and more options, and with the spare APM not spent on Broodwar-style macro, they can do some incredible micro and multiprong attacks. Except BW pros still showcase superior micro and army control despite the greater difficulty of BW. Oh, and SC2 is easier to win at the moment because the competition is much weaker. This is true at both the highest level and even at newbie level. Example being sair/reaver. Honestly there isn't anything in SC2 that comes even CLOSE to a well executed sair/reaver build. Not yet that is, BW fans need to realize, that SC2 is not done yet, not even close to close, it is only 1/3 complete, and the 2/3 is on its way, but hasnt even hit Beta yet, the new units that are coming with the expansion are going to introduce tons of very micro heavy units. Units like the Swarm Host and Viper are going to make Zerg turn into a "Macro like a beast and win" concept into "Macro like a beast but micro your units very carefully and win". Essentially, Zerg is no longer going to be micro-less once the expansion comes out. With the new Protoss units, Protoss is also going to turn into a big multitasking fest, because alot of their new units are for harassment, so Protoss pros are really going to have to have really good multitasking to play it at the top level. And Terran is already very micro oriented haha. Starcraft 1 was wildly unbalanced and had extremely weak players (compared to what they have now), it wasnt until years and years later did some of the top names join the scene and for the game itself to actually gain a real competitive balance. Starcraft 2 WILL be better, and here is why. Starcraft 2 WOL was already good, just a little bland in comparison to BW, this is due to many facts, new game, inexperienced pro players, imbalance in many factors, and lack of strategies. Only a year after release, it is 10X the game in terms of skill ceiling and strategy, and its only 1/3 done. After they release the expansion, they are fixing SO many of the holes that SC2WOL was facing, Zerg will become very micro heavy, Protoss will need very good multitasking, and Terran are getting some cool new things themselves, this in and of its own is going to make the game MARVELOUS in terms of skill ceiling and skill needed. And THEN after that gets going, there will be a THIRD expansion, that will undoubtedly fix any and all remaining problems in terms of strategies and balance. And the real top dogs will have emerged by this time. No, SC2 is not as mechanically demanding as BW, simply because...the BW interface was horribly inefficient. A player with gosu strategy and ideas would simply get mauled by a player that played like a robot but played 14 hours a day to perfect the horrible UI. In SC2, the more savvy tactician will always prevail, because now that the interface is sleek and efficient, the smarter player will almost always beat the one with the better mechanics.
If there was a like button, I would hit it.
I totally agree with this post, in sc2 right now.it is fully not explored, we are not even there yet. Strageties can now be much easily executed but that also means that you can really put a lot of imagination into your play without it being stopped as easily with a person who has pure solid mechanocs.
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I'm not surprised at all that his BW success has transferred over. fOrGG was definitely on the verge of S-Class when he was playing well in brood war. He always had amazing macro and an impeccable sense of timing. The highest level BW players have incredible work ethics and manual dexterity and the point has been made over and over again but when a super high level player ala Flash or Jaedong or Bisu goes over to SC2 expect them to really start dominating people.
Is he living up to his time attacker nickname in SC2? I don't actually watch SC2 so I'm just curious how his style has changed from game to game.
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On December 09 2011 14:51 IMoperator wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2011 14:50 DarkMatter_ wrote:On December 09 2011 14:47 IMoperator wrote:
He doesn't look too impressive from his stream, he does a lot of bunker rushes or all ins on one base, not many macro games. And he's still winning nearly all his games. What does that say about SC2? That all ins are strong? I haven't seen any of this "BW genius" from him. I mean, right now he is 2 rax proxying a zerg -_- It's not to say he's not good, he'd destroy me in an instant but he doesn't seem any different than any KR masters/gm that I've seen.
Maybe hes just trying new strats on ladder? I don't think he'll be broadcasting his standard strategies to the whole world.
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+ Show Spoiler +On December 09 2011 14:47 VanGarde wrote:
The question of which game is easier or not is never going to end, sadly most people will never have the realization that it actually has no consequence on either game as an e-sport.
The human brain is not a good multitasker. The more things we attempt to do and remember at the same time the frequency with which we make mistakes increase. Both Starcraft 2 and Broodwar are massively complex games, complex enough that playing either one perfectly without making mistakes is in all likeliness physically impossible. A simplification would be to say that the difficulty of a game is related to the number of possible tasks you need to perform at the same time or in a compressed space of time, tasks would be both actual input and decisions that you make. To say out loud that either game is easier I feel is not quite possible because you need to factor in a vast amount of variables into this. Macromechanically starcraft 2 is definitely easier than broodwar. There are more inputs that you need to make to macro perfectly. In terms of micro it is harder to say, races are different, overall army control is easier in sc2 due to infinite size controlgroups, on the other hand there are micro tasks like marine splitting that you did not have to do in broodwar. Starcraft 2 is while easier to control faster than broodwar. By faster I don't mean how fast the units move or how fast you need to play, I am talking about how quickly a move by your opponent will have a massive impact unless you react. Once again banelings is a good example I guess, hellion drops and just that stuff dies faster in sc2. But then there are things that are harder in broodwar etc etc.
BUT THIS IS THE IMPORTANT PART
Let us just say that Broodwar is more difficult. Let's for the sake of the argument just decide that overall, you need to perform more tasks in broodwar to play perfectly and thus the risk of making mistakes is higher. This is actually completely irrelevant though.
UNLESS the game is simple enough to be played perfectly, then the actual skill roof does not have an impact on top level competition because no one can ever play either game perfectly.
The difference in difficulty will mainly have an impact on the learning curve and result in people improving faster. It is unlikely that the number of pro's and players on that level are actually different between the games but it is quite likely that the number of very skilled players but still a few levels below pro's would be higher in sc2 compared to bw.
People love to throw around words like skill ceiling like it is a holy symbol of competitive gaming. But the term is used completely wrong. If you are talking about the skill ceiling as a factor of how good you could possibly be at the game, that ceiling is higher than human capacity in both games so you can never reach it regardless. If the ceiling were low enough that you could play the game perfectly like it is with chess then that might be considered a problem but since this is not the case the entire argument is a waste of time.
Damn, while I don't agree in that marine splitting was not needed in BW(it was) I completely agree with the overall message of your post. But oh well, thats why I find discussing which game is easier a waste of time.
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On December 09 2011 14:34 windsupernova wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2011 14:17 DarkMatter_ wrote:On December 09 2011 14:13 windsupernova wrote:
SC2 is easier, so what?
People were posting a twitter response from Forgg as evidence that SC2 is supposedly just as hard as BW. In response, some of us are insisting that that's not true. Warcraft 2 is harder mechanically than BW, so? The thing is that Mechanically SC2 IS easier, no denying that. Of course I get the point that you are not playing against the UI but against another human being and that the game will be as difficult as your opponent at the moment. Mechanicall SC2 is easier than BW, mechanically BW is easier than W2. Competitively both games have a thriving scene so in the end it doesn't really matters. Discussing on what game is harder is just a meaningless e peen contest. I mean I like... both games(ZOMG!!!!11!!!) but seriously there is 0 point in discussing the merits of each game vs the other. BW hasn't been killed off by SC2, SC2 has not been a bomb. Both still have lots of content to give and both have their fanbase. So seriously at this point who cares? Enjoy your game and don't shit on the games other people enjoy. You guys are not even discussing the game thing. SC2 competition is as fierce as BW competition, thats what they are arguing which is true in a sense. You guys are arguing that SC2 is easier mechanically than BW which is true.
This has been said before but there is a balance to achieve for (mechanics and strategy). IMO BW has a decent balance of mechanics vs strategy.
Let us just say that Broodwar is more difficult. Let's for the sake of the argument just decide that overall, you need to perform more tasks in broodwar to play perfectly and thus the risk of making mistakes is higher. This is actually completely irrelevant though.
I discussed this before but what one should look for is the "skill floor". (Skill floor is the "skill" needed before any higher "skill" gets diminishing returns. Lets translate this to APM [Yes I know APM is not a great example but for this example lets pretend it is] - Skill floor is this - Once you have 200 APM, any higher APM won't help as much as it helped from going from 1-200 APM. In this example if everyone reaches the skill floor then that means better players won't have as much as an advantage over anyone with 200+ APM since they hit the skill floor.)
Basically the major difference between BW and SC2 is that the gap between the pros and the average folk is bigger in BW than is in SC2.
Which is good (IMO) - You reduce the times where "worse" players defeat the "better" players.
(Take note it is in quotes. By worse and better I mean mechanically - whether you think mechanics should be more focused on in RTS vs strategy is a different matter though.)
Of course which one is more important, mechanics or strategy, is debatable.
In terms of RTS I personally feel BW had a good balance of both mechanics and strategy. In WC2 it was focused way more on mechanics than strategy (compared to BW, especially considering it practically only had 1 race as opposed to 3 in BW).
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On December 09 2011 14:51 IMoperator wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2011 14:50 DarkMatter_ wrote:On December 09 2011 14:47 IMoperator wrote:
He doesn't look too impressive from his stream, he does a lot of bunker rushes or all ins on one base, not many macro games. And he's still winning nearly all his games. What does that say about SC2? That all ins are strong? I haven't seen any of this "BW genius" from him. I mean, right now he is 2 rax proxying a zerg -_- It's not to say he's not good, he'd destroy me in an instant but he doesn't seem any different than any KR masters/gm that I've seen.
At this point I don't think he even cares if he wins or loses. He already has a Top 10 account on KR ladder, he's just adding another one to the list. His gameplay is pretty cheesy and sorta all-in'ish, and I don't mind. I would like to see him draw it out to long macro games and just see him use his endless aggression and harassment there to dissect an opponent.
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On December 09 2011 14:58 yoshi245 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2011 14:51 IMoperator wrote:On December 09 2011 14:50 DarkMatter_ wrote:On December 09 2011 14:47 IMoperator wrote:
He doesn't look too impressive from his stream, he does a lot of bunker rushes or all ins on one base, not many macro games. And he's still winning nearly all his games. What does that say about SC2? That all ins are strong? I haven't seen any of this "BW genius" from him. I mean, right now he is 2 rax proxying a zerg -_- It's not to say he's not good, he'd destroy me in an instant but he doesn't seem any different than any KR masters/gm that I've seen. At this point I don't think he even cares if he wins or loses. He already has a Top 10 account on KR ladder, he's just adding another one to the list. His gameplay is pretty cheesy and sorta all-in'ish, and I don't mind. I would like to see him draw it out to long macro games and just see him use his endless aggression and harassment there to dissect an opponent.
Yeah, this is basically what I was trying to say. I haven't seen a game from him go past 2 base lol, I just want to see if he's all that he's made out to be. So far I've just seen various banshee/hellion rushes into thor all ins or proxy raxes or 111 all in.
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On December 09 2011 14:58 yoshi245 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2011 14:51 IMoperator wrote:On December 09 2011 14:50 DarkMatter_ wrote:On December 09 2011 14:47 IMoperator wrote:
He doesn't look too impressive from his stream, he does a lot of bunker rushes or all ins on one base, not many macro games. And he's still winning nearly all his games. What does that say about SC2? That all ins are strong? I haven't seen any of this "BW genius" from him. I mean, right now he is 2 rax proxying a zerg -_- It's not to say he's not good, he'd destroy me in an instant but he doesn't seem any different than any KR masters/gm that I've seen. At this point I don't think he even cares if he wins or loses. He already has a Top 10 account on KR ladder, he's just adding another one to the list. His gameplay is pretty cheesy and sorta all-in'ish, and I don't mind. I would like to see him draw it out to long macro games and just see him use his endless aggression and harassment there to dissect an opponent.
I honestly get the feeling he's partially trolling at this point lol. Just proxying every game like it's his birthday
edit: @ poster above me, he had a 4 base game vs hwangsin, tvp. Seems like he was playing macro games earlier, and now he's simply being a fool haha
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On December 09 2011 14:53 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
I'm not surprised at all that his BW success has transferred over. fOrGG was definitely on the verge of S-Class when he was playing well in brood war. He always had amazing macro and an impeccable sense of timing. The highest level BW players have incredible work ethics and manual dexterity and the point has been made over and over again but when a super high level player ala Flash or Jaedong or Bisu goes over to SC2 expect them to really start dominating people.
Is he living up to his time attacker nickname in SC2? I don't actually watch SC2 so I'm just curious how his style has changed from game to game.
I'd say he's living up to it as much as the game allows right now. Sc2 doesn't yet have as elaborate midgame timing attacks as BW, right now ForGG plays an ultraagressive style with constant harass, followed up by a strong push that usually wins him the game.
edit: Also, his play is more coherent than we're used to seeing in Sc2, he always seems to have very specific game plans in mind and everything he does with his units is according to that plan. Very cool to see.
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Every time I tune in he's playing a protoss or zerg =/
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On December 09 2011 14:59 IMoperator wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2011 14:58 yoshi245 wrote:On December 09 2011 14:51 IMoperator wrote:On December 09 2011 14:50 DarkMatter_ wrote:On December 09 2011 14:47 IMoperator wrote:
He doesn't look too impressive from his stream, he does a lot of bunker rushes or all ins on one base, not many macro games. And he's still winning nearly all his games. What does that say about SC2? That all ins are strong? I haven't seen any of this "BW genius" from him. I mean, right now he is 2 rax proxying a zerg -_- It's not to say he's not good, he'd destroy me in an instant but he doesn't seem any different than any KR masters/gm that I've seen. At this point I don't think he even cares if he wins or loses. He already has a Top 10 account on KR ladder, he's just adding another one to the list. His gameplay is pretty cheesy and sorta all-in'ish, and I don't mind. I would like to see him draw it out to long macro games and just see him use his endless aggression and harassment there to dissect an opponent. Yeah, this is basically what I was trying to say. I haven't seen a game from him go past 2 base lol, I just want to see if he's all that he's made out to be. So far I've just seen various banshee/hellion rushes into thor all ins or proxy raxes or 111 all in.
He had a really good sorta lengthy macro game vs. Hwangsin on shattered temple on his stream earlier. It was quite entertaining since Hwangsin had sick Colussus drop micro. But ForGG was for the most part relentless doing drops to take out stuff like cyber core, robo bay, etc and pushing with his main force. It may sound fairly standard, but watching it, both players really made it look good.
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On December 09 2011 15:01 yoshi245 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2011 14:59 IMoperator wrote:On December 09 2011 14:58 yoshi245 wrote:On December 09 2011 14:51 IMoperator wrote:On December 09 2011 14:50 DarkMatter_ wrote:On December 09 2011 14:47 IMoperator wrote:
He doesn't look too impressive from his stream, he does a lot of bunker rushes or all ins on one base, not many macro games. And he's still winning nearly all his games. What does that say about SC2? That all ins are strong? I haven't seen any of this "BW genius" from him. I mean, right now he is 2 rax proxying a zerg -_- It's not to say he's not good, he'd destroy me in an instant but he doesn't seem any different than any KR masters/gm that I've seen. At this point I don't think he even cares if he wins or loses. He already has a Top 10 account on KR ladder, he's just adding another one to the list. His gameplay is pretty cheesy and sorta all-in'ish, and I don't mind. I would like to see him draw it out to long macro games and just see him use his endless aggression and harassment there to dissect an opponent. Yeah, this is basically what I was trying to say. I haven't seen a game from him go past 2 base lol, I just want to see if he's all that he's made out to be. So far I've just seen various banshee/hellion rushes into thor all ins or proxy raxes or 111 all in. He had a really good sorta lengthy macro game vs. Hwangsin on shattered temple on his stream earlier. It was quite entertaining since Hwangsin had sick Colussus drop micro. But ForGG was for the most part relentless doing drops to take out stuff like cyber core, robo bay, etc and pushing with his main force. It may sound fairly standard, but watching it, both players really made it look good.
Gah, stream's done looks like I missed all the good parts.
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I think ladder is where Korean Pros wanna practice specific build and timing rather than showing off their true skill. I mean he basically went for banshee in every single TvT and TvZ, also hellions into cloaked banshee like vs July against Zerg.
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He was basically practicing 1 or 2 specific builds in each matchup. Pros do this to test out how well it works against other people outside your team who will basically know it's coming.
I actually can't believe people are questioning his macro capabilities. It's not difficult to manage 4+ bases in SC2. The guy played BW at the highest level, managing 2 bases is like managing 5. His mechanics were amazing and so was his multitasking. He'd have no trouble in the late game.
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On December 09 2011 14:23 NEXUS6 wrote:
forGG was just listening to some Foo Fighters on his stream so now I am a fan.
ok and he was also listening to backstreet boys? lol;) anyways gogo fin. Lets stop the BW/SC2 QQ before it gets out of hand... if it has not already
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EPT
