On September 21 2011 17:06 CecilSunkure wrote: You won a couple matches? That right there sounds wrong to me. Either I was really really bad at BW, or iCCup just isn't as tough anymore at D level...
There's a *huge* range of skill at D. You've got those that are solid D, nearing D+, but are just missing that "something" to push them to the next rank, then you've got those who are at D purely because they just started playing on that account and are actually CPU level.
Oh that makes more sense. I guess I'm assuming D+ and D are a lot closer than they are.
OP just made me realize I haven't actually sat down and tried to play BW in 10 years. And considering I was very immature 10 years ago, I think it's time to try it again. Even 10 years ago I can remember saying "Oh wow, this this game is harder then Super Return of the Jedi" I'm sure nothing has changed and it's time to re earn my D- status! *insert heroic pose here*
On September 21 2011 05:11 Chill wrote: I had no intention of watching Fantasy vs Jangbi but this blog made me want to go home and watch it now >_< Good job OP
ok it was awesome lol i started typing which one was my favourite game but really all of them were
On September 21 2011 17:06 CecilSunkure wrote: You won a couple matches? That right there sounds wrong to me. Either I was really really bad at BW, or iCCup just isn't as tough anymore at D level...
There's a *huge* range of skill at D. You've got those that are solid D, nearing D+, but are just missing that "something" to push them to the next rank, then you've got those who are at D purely because they just started playing on that account and are actually CPU level.
Oh that makes more sense. I guess I'm assuming D+ and D are a lot closer than they are.
They are and they aren't. There's a huge wide range within each class as well, based on how the system worked. There are people that can JUST hit D+, and are constantly moving in and out of D/D+ on the border. Usually they can't get beyond around 2200 pts. Then there are the people that *can* hold their own in D+, which are mid to high D+ players usually, with some of them edging on C-. The difference between a low D+ that is dropping down to D and a high one that is almost C- is so large that the high D+ would win over 67% of the time most likely.
I was kinda like that at C level, I don't think I ever got beyond 4300 pts . So I never felt like a super solid C, but I was better than the people who got 4001 pts and stopped playing.
On September 21 2011 05:11 Chill wrote: I had no intention of watching Fantasy vs Jangbi but this blog made me want to go home and watch it now >_< Good job OP
ok it was awesome lol i started typing which one was my favourite game but really all of them were
what if this was highlander and I said there could only be one?
On September 21 2011 05:11 Chill wrote: I had no intention of watching Fantasy vs Jangbi but this blog made me want to go home and watch it now >_< Good job OP
ok it was awesome lol i started typing which one was my favourite game but really all of them were
what if this was highlander and I said there could only be one?
On September 21 2011 04:38 hifriend wrote: - Hotkey trainer UMS, is a really great way to train up your macro. You have to constantly micro a worker away from a zealot while building up a base and ultimately killing a zerg ai.. And you have to bring a dropship to an island and rescue a civilian. Also you can't have over 300 unspent minerals.
This is an amazing way to train your apm and multitask in BW. Seriously. I'll vouch for this. I used this a lot, and it helped a lot.
Anyone know of a good single player map like that for SC2? I really could use it right now. I just came off of a 4 month break from SC2, and I don't want to even touch the ladder right now.
I find that map has been out of date for a looong time and teaches bad habit to new players. Like it doesn't make sense to have less than 300 minerals all the time unless your macro is really bad. Even on one base you can support more than 2-3 gateways worth of production if you produce enough probes. It was really made for a time when players didn't bother getting many peons and didn't expand until they were about to run out of minerals. Best way to know if your macro is okay is just to have 0 minerals at the end of your production rounds (which ideally are consecutive without delay).
I don't think you understand..... I did not use it to practice perfect macro or practice my build orders, I used it to hone my multitasking skills as well as make sure I was used to having my fingers running faster than they do in a normal game (to help raise my apm, since I already knew that I wasn't moving fast enough to advance past C-). When I started using these kinds of training maps, in a normal game, I'd have 100 apm, but in this trainer, I'd have like 170-220. after 5-6 months of using these maps consistently, I was able to have closer to 170 apm, and like 280-300 in the trainer map.
There were other maps which helped with other things. Muta micro maps helped practice muta clumping/scourge killing, macro maps made sure I actually had my build orders right, micro tourney maps helped practice somewhat realistic engagements against a real person, etc. I simply used it as a tool to practice some specific thing. And they worked well for that specific task. That's why I advocate using training maps like these.
as far as the range of d players are concerned, iccup (and I assume other servers, never really tried to ladder on korean servers) do have a large range of skill levels. as far as d+ and c- games go:
~1/4 of the games are versus like c+/b- people, either on new account/laddering up/resetting stats. ~1/2 the games are about the right skill level imo. ~5/6 games are versus a protoss where it is hard to judge the skill, because a protoss who plays fighting spirit 24/7 and 12 nex's right or only dt's can get to C fairly easily vs. T despite being good or bad as a player overall.
that's experience as my terran (consistently c- across seasons). I got to C last season being one of those faggot protosses/playing some terran, cheesing his way up.
p.s. if you ever face a random player, d through c- level cheese him back. A random player almost never scouts for proxies, since they are either proxying themselves or hoping he doesn't get his race scouted. If you 2 gate middle of the map vs a random player you'll win like 80% of the time straight up, particularly if they are zerg where they just assume they have an advantage since you won't forge FE.
On September 21 2011 13:27 heha wrote: Also, when I say SC2 Masters Macro, I simply mean understanding the principle of keeping minerals low XD (or attempting to, holy fuck your money rises fast in BW). I will hopefully endeavour to keep at this over the next two weeks, while I'm away from any SC2 access (uni holidays). Playing Random for now, but dear god, with how hard BW is, I'm not sure I can keep it up >.<"
A few years ago I described the learning curve of BW as a vertical face of a cliff! Sounds like you're having an easier time than most!
Your SC2 macro will MAYBE help you get to D+ (haven't played iccup since release and I know the skill required to hit D+ went down), but it won't do much else for you. When I started playing SC2 I played on nothing but BW mechanics for a month and did ok in plat (a year ago). It wasn't enough, but understanding RTS strategy, basic macro mechanics of building workers ovies and units, and how to sidestep my opponent's advantage were priceless to my SC2 experience. Hopefully you have more crossovers than macro!
On September 21 2011 13:27 heha wrote: Also, when I say SC2 Masters Macro, I simply mean understanding the principle of keeping minerals low XD (or attempting to, holy fuck your money rises fast in BW). I will hopefully endeavour to keep at this over the next two weeks, while I'm away from any SC2 access (uni holidays). Playing Random for now, but dear god, with how hard BW is, I'm not sure I can keep it up >.<"
A few years ago I described the learning curve of BW as a vertical face of a cliff! Sounds like you're having an easier time than most!
Your SC2 macro will MAYBE help you get to D+ (haven't played iccup since release and I know the skill required to hit D+ went down), but it won't do much else for you. When I started playing SC2 I played on nothing but BW mechanics for a month and did ok in plat (a year ago). It wasn't enough, but understanding RTS strategy, basic macro mechanics of building workers ovies and units, and how to sidestep my opponent's advantage were priceless to my SC2 experience. Hopefully you have more crossovers than macro!
Tbh bw mechanics easily carried me to high master, I don't think as much as I should when I play sc2, I just tend to have more shit.. I don't have bo's carefully planned out as I did when I was C- on iccup.
On September 21 2011 13:27 heha wrote: Also, when I say SC2 Masters Macro, I simply mean understanding the principle of keeping minerals low XD (or attempting to, holy fuck your money rises fast in BW). I will hopefully endeavour to keep at this over the next two weeks, while I'm away from any SC2 access (uni holidays). Playing Random for now, but dear god, with how hard BW is, I'm not sure I can keep it up >.<"
Your SC2 macro will MAYBE help you get to D+ (haven't played iccup since release and I know the skill required to hit D+ went down), but it won't do much else for you.
I'm not exactly sure of that. It varies a lot game to game; a "true d+" level may be lower or the same imo, but sometimes you run into only people who are "really" c or higher. So depending on luck of who you play, it can be a lot harder to progress ranks or a little bit easier.
at least that was my experience last 2 seasons of iccup. And I know I definitely improved my game quite a bit but didn't translate into a totally different experience; skill of opponents was not too noticeably different for me (if any, I felt I ran into more games where I had no chance--making the ladder harder-- as the other person would "really" be about c+ to b- level, based on their previous seasons or just general play).
On September 21 2011 05:11 Chill wrote: I had no intention of watching Fantasy vs Jangbi but this blog made me want to go home and watch it now >_< Good job OP
ok it was awesome lol i started typing which one was my favourite game but really all of them were
what if this was highlander and I said there could only be one?
On September 21 2011 17:06 CecilSunkure wrote: You won a couple matches? That right there sounds wrong to me. Either I was really really bad at BW, or iCCup just isn't as tough anymore at D level...
There's a *huge* range of skill at D. You've got those that are solid D, nearing D+, but are just missing that "something" to push them to the next rank, then you've got those who are at D purely because they just started playing on that account and are actually CPU level.
Oh that makes more sense. I guess I'm assuming D+ and D are a lot closer than they are.
They are and they aren't. There's a huge wide range within each class as well, based on how the system worked. There are people that can JUST hit D+, and are constantly moving in and out of D/D+ on the border. Usually they can't get beyond around 2200 pts. Then there are the people that *can* hold their own in D+, which are mid to high D+ players usually, with some of them edging on C-. The difference between a low D+ that is dropping down to D and a high one that is almost C- is so large that the high D+ would win over 67% of the time most likely.
I was kinda like that at C level, I don't think I ever got beyond 4300 pts . So I never felt like a super solid C, but I was better than the people who got 4001 pts and stopped playing.
Yea, D/D+ is basically skill level in itself. A player that is 900-1500 will play significantly worse than a 1700-2300 player. And same with 2500-2900ish range. At least from my experience.
On September 21 2011 04:54 Tatari wrote: I remember some people saying D for Diamond.
And that's one hell of an understatement. Playing BW helps so much with mechanics, and it's more fun than SC2 imo. I'd still play it if iCCup didn't make a dead corpse look like it could dance to 5 songs at once.
I only remember that back before Masters was around. I'd say if you're a "solid" D, as in having 1500+ points (anything below 1500 pts and you might as well be D-), you're about on par with low masters in SC2.
SC2 helped me tremendously because I've always had incredibly high game sense, and good relative eAPM to my actual APM, but just struggled mechanically with low overall APM (got up to aroudn 120 by the end, but first achieved C around 90 APM with Zerg/Toss). I always knew what to do and could almost always outplay my opponents strategically at that level but couldn't keep up with the macro. MBS is a friggin' godsend that shot me up relatively, I've beaten many former A players from BW as both zerg and Terran in SC2.
On September 21 2011 04:49 OpticalShot wrote: You can still bio in TvP... just that it'll become an all-in strategy. It actually works well once you learn the timing window against a Protoss that skips out on AoE (reaver / high templar) for more goon-heavy composition. Also, I think someone used bio to counter carriers in a televised match (marines to pick off interceptors) but it ended up failing lol.
Marines vs Carriers is a good strat but only if you scout it early and it HAS to be 2 base carrier, nothing else, I believe.
That's probably an overstatement. I would compare the jump from high diamond to low masters to the jump from a solid D to a solid D+.
I played BW for years and peaked at B- one season (average ~4500 solid C for most seasons), and it wasn't THAT easy to get into Masters simply due to the nature of SC2.
Ofcourse Broodwar is the harder game, its not even a competition. If you switch back from Starcraft 2 to Broodwar, and I was actually decent you feel like a complete newbie. The unit selection, macro and control is so much harder...
Try out Sc2BW if you don't like the graphics, its already hard, still a bit easier but fucking hard.
Yeah, at first when I played BW I was frustrated and surprised at how difficult everything was, makes you admire the S class guys (the few there are) even more, doesn't it?
You get used to it pretty quickly though, even if you started with SC2, if you're even decent at SC2 You'll start picking up on things, and macro will become easier.
I play terran in BW and SC2. In SC2 I have all the production on one hotkey, just personal preference. Feels easier and more natural to tab around as opposed to shifting between 3 and 5 and 6-9 because there's a lower chance of missing the button and screwing up.
Anyway, so basically to even have a chance of getting out a good round of units (in BW) when I'm up at 3+ barracks/factories, I have to look down at my keyboard and use two hands (v_v) which is pretty depressing considering how auto-pilot it is when I macro in SC2.
"then just overran him with SC2 Masters macro lategame."
That part made me laugh When u reach a decent level, like C+ u'll also meet ppl who can scout/micro/macro at the same time! I suggest that u practise always having your army out on the map, close to his base while maintaining good macro. U'll improve a lot faster!
I believe new account signups should be forced to read this thread. Almost like a TOS agreement.
BW is the one game that will bring me the most nostalgia in my lifetime. This is one of the only times it's better to be old and to have experienced it in it's raw essence than young and not aware that it's there.
Oh, and for every new sc2 player that takes a chance and installs this holy grail of a game, somewhere in the world a young hardworking man or woman becomes a doctor.
On September 21 2011 04:44 Chill wrote: SC2 players are generally pretty dismissive of the claim that BW is a lot harder than SC2. But it's true. BW is fucking hard as hell. So I like this Blog. Take these 5 stars.
It's funny, you go back and play BW now and go "wow that was insanely hard", but then your old reflexes come back to you and you can cope once again.
SO true ;;; I was playing a couple of months ago again and boy is macroing hydras fun.
Haha and control groups ... How easy it really is to use like 4 control groups for one army yet I just don't do that in SC2 because I am so bad and lazy :-(
Maybe I should try iccup again. Last time I did I couldn't get any games but super laggy Koreans
EPT
. So I never felt like a super solid C, but I was better than the people who got 4001 pts and stopped playing.
as both zerg and Terran in SC2.
