Would leave it at that, but my last blog was closed for lack of content, so let me extrapolate XD
HOLY FUCK BW IS HARDDDDDDD, everything is retardedly hard... The Macro, the timings, the counters/builds (so apparently you don't bio in TvT/vP nemore...)... and oh my god don't even get me started on the idea of micro *shudder*. So far I've played and won 2 D level games, after losing about 4 beforehand... one TvZ I held off some random lurker/ling attack after 13 CC'ing (isn't it meant to be 14?), then just overran him with SC2 Masters macro lategame. Next game was ZvT where he went a 3 tank timing push against my 3 hatch muta, I held it off and proceeded to mass expo and roflstomp him...
So far the theme seems to be me holding off random attacks by D level players and then overrunning them with SC2 macro later on XD Didn't work so well next game: TvT... I don't even play mech in SC2 T.T So yeah, opened with 2 fact into 1/2/1 into CC... jockeyed for a while with vultures in the middle... then lost when his 3 wraiths killed my 2 and I realised I had no turrets and was not playing bio... T.T
To reiterate, BW is RIDICULOUSLY hard... Without MBS, macroing is ridiculous for someone like me... How's it meant to be done? Camera locks + Really fast clicks? And how on earth do you micro with all that going on too? O.o Obviously my APM's gonna need to SHOOOT through the roof... DEFINITELY gonna need to read up on some builds and whatnot, I'm almost absolutely lost in the early game.
Sigh, well g'nite all... 5:20 am here and I'm still going insane over BW... New record 4-1 ICCup :D
Yeah bw is fucking hard as hell.. But when you really get the hang of the macro, and you get into that nice flow of rhythmically spamming like a madman, you'll know it was all worth it.
Some macro stuff:
- For production, you'll want to use a camera hotkey as you said. My advice is using one camera hotkey over your production buildings, and another one over your rally point. That way you can go f2 klick building f3 right click etc. I also like to keep one of my barracks on a hotkey like 5 just so that I can double tap it in order to get back produce.
- Learn to look at the minimap as often as you possibly can. You don't have as much time to babysit your units in broodwar because macro really needs constant attention.
- Try to start a production cycle right before you hit an engagement.
- Play games with the mere goal of executing one specific build, never getting supply capped, never stopping worker production and never getting minerals above 500. Nevermind if you lose 20 games like this, it'll help anyway.
- Hotkey trainer UMS, is a really great way to train up your macro. You have to constantly micro a worker away from a zealot while building up a base and ultimately killing a zerg ai.. And you have to bring a dropship to an island and rescue a civilian. Also you can't have over 300 unspent minerals.
On September 21 2011 04:35 heha wrote: then just overran him with SC2 Masters macro lategame.
Yeah dude, that SC2 masters macro sure is scary.
On a more serious note, congrats on exploring the beauty of Brood War land... wish I could go back and be so newbie and experience that great feeling of learning BW all over again. Have fun and enjoy your adventures!
SC2 players are generally pretty dismissive of the claim that BW is a lot harder than SC2. But it's true. BW is fucking hard as hell. So I like this Blog. Take these 5 stars.
You macro by being quick...hotkey one production facility, doubletap the hotkey to center on the building, then you mouse click your buildings and queue units up that way. click z click z click z click z gogogogo zealots back to army back to gateways z click z click z click...
basically how you gotta macro haha. Don't forget you'll also have the F keys up top, can set your nat/3rd/production to those as well.
also lol bio TvP. Anyone who started in SC2 and tries to TvP in BW is going to have a very laughable first game as they try and medic marine vs toss. Unless you go Deep Six, haha. Reaver is like a super collosus vs bio.
Now you also realize why a BW player's APM vs SC2 APM is generally higher, and needs to be higher to be at a higher level! APM != skill but there's a certain point where 75 APM isn't going to get you into C level because you just can't do enough fast enough to keep up with other C level players, if that makes sense.
Good luck in your BW endeavors, get some practice partners! ^^
On September 21 2011 04:41 wherebugsgo wrote: new record 4-1 ICCup?
I somehow don't believe that lol
There's some pretty bad players at the lower end of the spectrum.
It also sounds like this isn't his first account's record, as he just said in the OP that he initially lost a whole ton before starting to get a hang of how BW works. :p
If you're on your third or fourth account, you can probably make an account with those stats. My very first BW season I think I was 3-1 the first day, and I was by no means good...I just got paired with terribad players haha.
Plus, even if you started with SC2 and are switching to BW, you're starting off with at least SOME SC knowledge, so that could have helped as well. understanding the concept of macro/micro and that sort of thing, despite it being totally different.
You can still bio in TvP... just that it'll become an all-in strategy. It actually works well once you learn the timing window against a Protoss that skips out on AoE (reaver / high templar) for more goon-heavy composition. Also, I think someone used bio to counter carriers in a televised match (marines to pick off interceptors) but it ended up failing lol.
lol I like how you say "SC2 Masters Macro." SC2 masters macro is nothing in and of itself. I know someone who was D- and never got out of it in BW and ended up being GM level in SC2. I was GM last season and never got past C in BW.
And that's one hell of an understatement. Playing BW helps so much with mechanics, and it's more fun than SC2 imo. I'd still play it if iCCup didn't make a dead corpse look like it could dance to 5 songs at once.
On September 21 2011 04:49 OpticalShot wrote: You can still bio in TvP... just that it'll become an all-in strategy. It actually works well once you learn the timing window against a Protoss that skips out on AoE (reaver / high templar) for more goon-heavy composition. Also, I think someone used bio to counter carriers in a televised match (marines to pick off interceptors) but it ended up failing lol.
Marines are actually really great in combination with gols vs carriers. :p
On September 21 2011 04:54 Tatari wrote: I remember some people saying D for Diamond.
And that's one hell of an understatement. Playing BW helps so much with mechanics, and it's more fun than SC2 imo. I'd still play it if iCCup didn't make a dead corpse look like it could dance to 5 songs at once.
I only remember that back before Masters was around. I'd say if you're a "solid" D, as in having 1500+ points (anything below 1500 pts and you might as well be D-), you're about on par with low masters in SC2.
SC2 helped me tremendously because I've always had incredibly high game sense, and good relative eAPM to my actual APM, but just struggled mechanically with low overall APM (got up to aroudn 120 by the end, but first achieved C around 90 APM with Zerg/Toss). I always knew what to do and could almost always outplay my opponents strategically at that level but couldn't keep up with the macro. MBS is a friggin' godsend that shot me up relatively, I've beaten many former A players from BW as both zerg and Terran in SC2.
On September 21 2011 04:49 OpticalShot wrote: You can still bio in TvP... just that it'll become an all-in strategy. It actually works well once you learn the timing window against a Protoss that skips out on AoE (reaver / high templar) for more goon-heavy composition. Also, I think someone used bio to counter carriers in a televised match (marines to pick off interceptors) but it ended up failing lol.
Marines vs Carriers is a good strat but only if you scout it early and it HAS to be 2 base carrier, nothing else, I believe.
I still like cracking open BW and trying a build order out against the computer(So very not challenging), and it is a lot of fun to me still. I tried iccup a month or two ago and had a blast. I just don't put enough effort into practicing BW or SC2 enough to get to the competitive point in my abilities again.
Glad to see you had issues but also some fun! Nice blog.
It's harder to become proficient at, but that's also what makes it so interesting since you end up specializing in certain aspects and becoming really good at them (where other players specialize in other things). The game has a lot of personality because at all levels different players will be better at different things.
I love the struggle between two players who are good at different things. Each player tries to swing the game in a direction that will put their strengths against the opponent's weaknesses, and it can become really visible when you start playing a lot of games with one person.
BW is something else... even if you got most things right in one game there will always be one aspect thats bugging you and you need to improve.
What always brings me back is the multitasking aspect of the game. Micro two controle groups of Marines vs Lurker Ling defiler and coordinate drops to different bases while expoing again.
Or Vultures vs Zealots battles with patrol micro while macroing to 200/200 in the background.
On September 21 2011 05:01 Chef wrote: It's harder to become proficient at, but that's also what makes it so interesting since you end up specializing in certain aspects and becoming really good at them (where other players specialize in other things). The game has a lot of personality because at all levels different players will be better at different things.
I love the struggle between two players who are good at different things. Each player tries to swing the game in a direction that will put their strengths against the opponent's weaknesses, and it can become really visible when you start playing a lot of games with one person.
I haven't thought of it this way, but I really like it and agree. BW feels so deep once you start playing very often (not that I ever got very good =p)
C- at BW, high masters SC2. BW is wayyyyyy harder, which is why I switched. I'm not good at it and watching Jaedong and Flash play at the level they do, not missing any single beat is just breathtaking.
On September 21 2011 04:59 FabledIntegral wrote:On September 21 2011 Marines vs Carriers is a good strat but only if you scout it early and it HAS to be 2 base carrier, nothing else, I believe.
yeah typically but in any scenario where the p is going to have a shitty economy it tends to work out
On September 21 2011 05:09 neobowman wrote: C- at BW, high masters SC2. BW is wayyyyyy harder, which is why I switched. I'm not good at it and watching Jaedong and Flash play at the level they do, not missing any single beat is just breathtaking.
Me too, and I don't feel like I've put in even nearly the same effort in sc2.
On September 21 2011 05:01 Chef wrote: I love the struggle between two players who are good at different things. Each player tries to swing the game in a direction that will put their strengths against the opponent's weaknesses, and it can become really visible when you start playing a lot of games with one person.
That's really true and something I've never thought about before now.
On September 21 2011 04:44 Chill wrote: SC2 players are generally pretty dismissive of the claim that BW is a lot harder than SC2. But it's true. BW is fucking hard as hell. So I like this Blog. Take these 5 stars.
Agreed, bw was insanely hard but such an amazing game ^_^.
On September 21 2011 05:11 Chill wrote: I had no intention of watching Fantasy vs Jangbi but this blog made me want to go home and watch it now >_< Good job OP
On September 21 2011 05:11 Chill wrote: I had no intention of watching Fantasy vs Jangbi but this blog made me want to go home and watch it now >_< Good job OP
You really ought to watch that series...
I am always very happy to see these blogs. Long live BW.
On September 21 2011 05:11 Chill wrote: I had no intention of watching Fantasy vs Jangbi but this blog made me want to go home and watch it now >_< Good job OP
Yeah, I'm probably going to watch it too, I usually just go right to the live report threads and read the live reports (if anyone does them), and if not, just click the spoiler for overall results. I already know the results, so I might not watch the entire series, but supposedly the last game was pretty sick (I manually scrolled through maybe 15 pages of the LR reading people's reactions).
This blog actually makes me feel good somehow about my lowly C- level skill. Keeping my minerals low with somewhat good macro is second nature to me but I've never thought of it as something special, just something that seems natural. Macroing from 14 gates while fighting is basic BW stuff I can do without even thinking about it. This blog actually puts things in perspective and can make one realize that while to other old BW players, its nothing, to many people its an actually amazing skill that takes years and years of practice before it becomes a part of you. I myself have been playing BW since 2000 or maybe a little before.
Thx for making me feel good while being a noob at bw
On September 21 2011 05:11 Chill wrote: I had no intention of watching Fantasy vs Jangbi but this blog made me want to go home and watch it now >_< Good job OP
WTF ARE YOU DOING HOLY SHIT! That's like the best series of Brood War ever. Maybe not-gameplay wise, but in context of what's happening now, yeah.
btw heha getting into brood war in 2011 and not getting completely discouraged and quitting within 30 minutes after entering iccup is a strong indication of being a total baller
One way to think about bw/sc2 skill is decomposing it as mechanics + everything else. in BW, the weight on mechanics is much higher than the weight on everything else. So, bw rewards practiced mechanics and more robotic-like play. SC2, on the other hand, rewards decision making more than anything else (tactical micro, unit compositions, expansion timings/locations).
Until you get to a very, very high level in BW people do not have perfect macro, so they aren't able to develop the other skills as much. Whereas in SC2, having near-perfect macro is super easy (and gimmicks like supply drops make it even easier).
I always find playing BW makes me better at SC2, and SC2 makes me better at BW. Without having to spend so much time spamming keys to macro, I can learn at a faster rate how to utilize the proper strategy, as well as micro much better. Playing BW usually just gets my thought/action speed up really high.
On September 21 2011 06:19 AcrossFiveJulys wrote: Good blog.
One way to think about bw/sc2 skill is decomposing it as mechanics + everything else. in BW, the weight on mechanics is much higher than the weight on everything else. So, bw rewards practiced mechanics and more robotic-like play. SC2, on the other hand, rewards decision making more than anything else (tactical micro, unit compositions, expansion timings/locations).
Until you get to a very, very high level in BW people do not have perfect macro, so they aren't able to develop the other skills as much. Whereas in SC2, having near-perfect macro is super easy (and gimmicks like supply drops make it even easier).
you almost make it sound like decision making in BW wasn't cruical at all
This blog and its comments are really a great read! On to watch the rest of the OSL finals. Watched the first game last night and it was amazing!
Nice job so far, a 4-1 start for a BW beginner is solid, especially if your hitting people that aren't like CPU/D-.
As far as macro, it does get to be automatic after a while, but most people either hotkey one production facility and double tap that to center screen then click through like mad, or they use the F-Keys as a screen center and have one screen for production facilities. Zerg can be a little trickier cause you have hatches all over the place.
On September 21 2011 04:38 hifriend wrote: - Hotkey trainer UMS, is a really great way to train up your macro. You have to constantly micro a worker away from a zealot while building up a base and ultimately killing a zerg ai.. And you have to bring a dropship to an island and rescue a civilian. Also you can't have over 300 unspent minerals.
This is an amazing way to train your apm and multitask in BW. Seriously. I'll vouch for this. I used this a lot, and it helped a lot.
Anyone know of a good single player map like that for SC2? I really could use it right now. I just came off of a 4 month break from SC2, and I don't want to even touch the ladder right now.
SC2 masters macro? Hehe. Try playing Terran and going lategame bio. Keeping those 9 rax, mutlitple facs/ports going is ridiculous. But it's also rewarding. I feel good even about many games i've lost, infact as long as it was a macro game i'm usually satisfied with the game. There's ALWAYS an area you can improve on.
you will cry a river at the amount of micro and macro you have to do
twice.
ow yeah, BW is mentally exhausting as fuck, there is NEVER EVER a moment where you can stop clicking or stop doing something, you always have to macro and micro. If i play a 40min BW game my brain is beyond fried already for the entire day pretty much.
Btw at low level bio TvP is actually very fun. Sometimes i go 1fac tank then get all bio with the tanks. The push can be very strong with good control. I really like trying various combos of bio/mech vs both vZ and vP and it's always a laugh. Don't be afraid to try stuff out cause almost everything can be used in some way. Like in ZvT i always get queens for infesting CC's, and do quick raids of lings to try and infest them before they can react. It's nice to have a unique playstyle, from your strategy to your simcity.
This is the best part of BW to me, how wildly different 2 people can play even going the same build order.
On September 21 2011 04:38 hifriend wrote: - Hotkey trainer UMS, is a really great way to train up your macro. You have to constantly micro a worker away from a zealot while building up a base and ultimately killing a zerg ai.. And you have to bring a dropship to an island and rescue a civilian. Also you can't have over 300 unspent minerals.
This is an amazing way to train your apm and multitask in BW. Seriously. I'll vouch for this. I used this a lot, and it helped a lot.
Anyone know of a good single player map like that for SC2? I really could use it right now. I just came off of a 4 month break from SC2, and I don't want to even touch the ladder right now.
I find that map has been out of date for a looong time and teaches bad habit to new players. Like it doesn't make sense to have less than 300 minerals all the time unless your macro is really bad. Even on one base you can support more than 2-3 gateways worth of production if you produce enough probes. It was really made for a time when players didn't bother getting many peons and didn't expand until they were about to run out of minerals. Best way to know if your macro is okay is just to have 0 minerals at the end of your production rounds (which ideally are consecutive without delay).
I don't think I agree with AcrossFiveJuly's comment either. Macrobots is a phrase I think Artosis popularized but it was really just a way of justifying the foreigner's inability to compete with top amateur Koreans (who honestly have way better decision making, tactics, and strategy in addition to better macro) which was really personally motivated. Countless times players lose games just because they overestimate the ability of their mutalisk harass, or they try to end the game with a poor advantage, or they get and advantage and prolong the game, but don't actually know how to keep the opponent from climbing back up. You're a veteran and so is Artosis, but to say StarCraft is robotic is just not fair. It's a single style of people who specialize in macro, and when they get abused for having huge holes in every other aspect of the game, they complain that it's cheesy bullshit since they weren't able to play their style lol.
BW is hard. For Terran it's REALLY hard....for Zerg it's SUPER SUPER hard (because you have to know when to make drones and when not to make drones, which is like....I could never figure that part out).
I used to think Zerg were harder but i revised my opinion to Terran. While the eco and macro seems difficult at first you get used to it and you definitely can play it at a lower APM more effectively than T. That's why there's so many foreign Z and P and less T.
On September 21 2011 04:44 Chill wrote: SC2 players are generally pretty dismissive of the claim that BW is a lot harder than SC2. But it's true. BW is fucking hard as hell. So I like this Blog. Take these 5 stars.
Really? Most people I see (myself included) will quickly admit BW is hard as fuck.
On September 21 2011 10:06 infinity2k9 wrote: I used to think Zerg were harder but i revised my opinion to Terran. While the eco and macro seems difficult at first you get used to it and you definitely can play it at a lower APM more effectively than T. That's why there's so many foreign Z and P and less T.
That's not the only thing...
If a Protoss loses his army, he can go "SPAM 200000 gateways LOL I'm JANGBANG"
If a Zerg loses his army, he can go "5sh6sh7sh8sh9sh"
Of course he won't lose his army because Dark swarm is around....
On September 21 2011 04:44 Chill wrote: SC2 players are generally pretty dismissive of the claim that BW is a lot harder than SC2. But it's true. BW is fucking hard as hell. So I like this Blog. Take these 5 stars.
I think some of them play SC2BW and assume that BW is the same difficulty. Let me assure those of you that BW is much, much harder than SC2BW (and obviously SC2). Although SC2BW is a really neat map and props to Maverck for making it!
It is quite hard, but I hope you will stick with it. I can only manage 3-4 games of SC2 before I'm back to BW. I think if you stick with it and get better you'll find it is SO much fun, and your wins are so so so satisfying. 5\5 (But only if you keep playing ^_^)
On September 21 2011 05:01 Chef wrote: It's harder to become proficient at, but that's also what makes it so interesting since you end up specializing in certain aspects and becoming really good at them (where other players specialize in other things). The game has a lot of personality because at all levels different players will be better at different things.
I love the struggle between two players who are good at different things. Each player tries to swing the game in a direction that will put their strengths against the opponent's weaknesses, and it can become really visible when you start playing a lot of games with one person.
Really good point actually, that is one of the things about BW I miss in SC2, and didn't even realize it. Specialization.... something which isn't really there in SC2 (yet at least), except in the manner of mechanical play (which all the top pros do extremely well...) vs extremely smart play which could almost be said to snipe (thus making up for less pro mechanics, or in conjunction with).
I have nothing to say except that you're right... BW is an intense game and definitely a bucket of water over the face to wake someone up out of a SC2 coma.
Edit: 5 stars for your willingness to try BW, you are a good man
On September 21 2011 10:06 infinity2k9 wrote: I used to think Zerg were harder but i revised my opinion to Terran. While the eco and macro seems difficult at first you get used to it and you definitely can play it at a lower APM more effectively than T. That's why there's so many foreign Z and P and less T.
That's not the only thing...
If a Protoss loses his army, he can go "SPAM 200000 gateways LOL I'm JANGBANG"
If a Zerg loses his army, he can go "5sh6sh7sh8sh9sh"
Of course he won't lose his army because Dark swarm is around....
If you lose a Terran army it's like herp derp gg.
But don't listen to me. I'm just bad.
In TvZ Terran can easily replace a shitton of marines on their 10 raxes
On September 21 2011 10:06 infinity2k9 wrote: I used to think Zerg were harder but i revised my opinion to Terran. While the eco and macro seems difficult at first you get used to it and you definitely can play it at a lower APM more effectively than T. That's why there's so many foreign Z and P and less T.
That's not the only thing...
If a Protoss loses his army, he can go "SPAM 200000 gateways LOL I'm JANGBANG"
If a Zerg loses his army, he can go "5sh6sh7sh8sh9sh"
Of course he won't lose his army because Dark swarm is around....
If you lose a Terran army it's like herp derp gg.
But don't listen to me. I'm just bad.
But you're chobo and do nothing. ;;
On March 15 2010 10:08 Ver wrote: Bio TvZ is fine at any level. Remember that while you may feel you can't control your armies at all neither can the Zerg react properly, and ZvT is harder than TvZ at low levels because weaker players have enormous issues handling pressure. Aside from muta harass bio TvZ is all about the Terran constantly pressuring the Zerg. If you get it in his face he will play terribly. It doesn't matter if you lose half your army to 3 lurkers or if you have 2k because if you can land dships in his main nothing will go right for him.
On September 21 2011 04:49 OpticalShot wrote: You can still bio in TvP... just that it'll become an all-in strategy. It actually works well once you learn the timing window against a Protoss that skips out on AoE (reaver / high templar) for more goon-heavy composition. Also, I think someone used bio to counter carriers in a televised match (marines to pick off interceptors) but it ended up failing lol.
On March 15 2010 10:08 Ver wrote: Bio TvZ is fine at any level. Remember that while you may feel you can't control your armies at all neither can the Zerg react properly, and ZvT is harder than TvZ at low levels because weaker players have enormous issues handling pressure. Aside from muta harass bio TvZ is all about the Terran constantly pressuring the Zerg. If you get it in his face he will play terribly. It doesn't matter if you lose half your army to 3 lurkers or if you have 2k because if you can land dships in his main nothing will go right for him.
This is so true, it's bullshit. You can do everything right and be like 4 base hive to 2 base, then bam. Some bullshit drop, spawning pool/defiler den gone, he pushes out while you frantically try to defend your hive/hydra den, all your lings/mutas suicide, lurkers irradiated. Suddenly you have no army, can't build anything, forget you can't build anything, spam 5sz6sz7sz8sz and wonder why it's not working, panic, GG.
To clarify on several points, my 4-1 score does include like 3 losses from a month or two ago, which definitely helped in terms of gamesense and whatnot. Also, when I say SC2 Masters Macro, I simply mean understanding the principle of keeping minerals low XD (or attempting to, holy fuck your money rises fast in BW). I will hopefully endeavour to keep at this over the next two weeks, while I'm away from any SC2 access (uni holidays). Playing Random for now, but dear god, with how hard BW is, I'm not sure I can keep it up >.<"
THANK YOU ALL AGAIN, AND LONG LIVE BW XD
Edit: Wait wtf, those 3 losses didn't help at all in terms of gamesense... It just helped me to realise that against some people I just have to hold on for dear life and pray I can make a comeback later on >.>
Double Edit: And lol, now I have Chill comments in all 3 of my blog attempts ^^v
Its not the difficulty that captures BW's charm its something more. I played with sub 100 APM on broodwar and was able to consistently get C+ on iccup so dont worry too much about spamming like crazy, just scout well and know your builds and you'll win the majority of your games right as mid-game begins. Broodwar is simply a more complete and intuitive game as it has had over a decade to develop while SC2 is still fresh. If you want to see what SC2 can become, then broodwar is an exciting game to play. But it has a long way to go
On September 21 2011 07:24 rauk wrote: 4-1 on iccup what a lie i went 2-5 today and i used to be C- Z before sc2
fuck terran is imba bunker rushed by C or B smurfs all day
imo stick with playing sc2 bw is too hard
In my experience, you get a better SC high playing BW than SC2, win or lose. The intensity of a BW game is 10x higher than SC2. And yea, as a former D+/C- P player I'm getting pwned at D level at the moment, going 5-6 yesterday.
I've noticed my apm has gone up (from 140 to 180-200), but my eapm is still the same as before (95-100). I'm gonna have to give that training map a try.
How did you hold a 3 tank mms attack with 3 hatch Zerg? I am really curious because that is one of the most difficult things to do, especially on low level. That alone requires so much more knowledge, control and micro even on low level compared to SC2 masters.
You won a couple matches? That right there sounds wrong to me. Either I was really really bad at BW, or iCCup just isn't as tough anymore at D level...
On September 21 2011 17:06 CecilSunkure wrote: You won a couple matches? That right there sounds wrong to me. Either I was really really bad at BW, or iCCup just isn't as tough anymore at D level...
There's a *huge* range of skill at D. You've got those that are solid D, nearing D+, but are just missing that "something" to push them to the next rank, then you've got those who are at D purely because they just started playing on that account and are actually CPU level.
On September 21 2011 04:53 VarmVaffel wrote: I remember when I started playing on ICCup back in the day. Lost 50 games in a row before I won my first game.
I can still remember the feeling of accomplishment...
I churned so hard to get out of D- my first month or two. Ended up C- after three or four seasons. TvP was the bane of my existance. TvT was my rock
@zatic... well actually @everyone: Yeah, pretty sure the players I was playing were those 'Hm, I'm gonna start playing this Starcraft thing cause I heard it's good' kind of players. Have since played a few more matches to nicely round out my score at 4-4 T.T Aka that '3 tank push' was something like 8 marines, 3 tanks off one base, vs. spammed lings + 4 mutas + all the drones at my nat (9)... so pretty sure he was doing something wrong XD
Lol, when I actually match up against people who know what they're doing, I'm getting decimated in EVERY matchup XD Ah, fun times, much learning ahead hmmm~
On September 21 2011 17:39 TheAntZ wrote: Being a masters player, you should be able to get to at least D+ with a little effort
getting to D+ as a bw newbie is going to require a lot more conscious effort than going from plat to masters does... especially if he doesn't main protoss.
On September 21 2011 04:44 Chill wrote: SC2 players are generally pretty dismissive of the claim that BW is a lot harder than SC2. But it's true. BW is fucking hard as hell. So I like this Blog. Take these 5 stars.
It's funny, you go back and play BW now and go "wow that was insanely hard", but then your old reflexes come back to you and you can cope once again.
On September 21 2011 10:06 infinity2k9 wrote: I used to think Zerg were harder but i revised my opinion to Terran. While the eco and macro seems difficult at first you get used to it and you definitely can play it at a lower APM more effectively than T. That's why there's so many foreign Z and P and less T.
That's not the only thing...
If a Protoss loses his army, he can go "SPAM 200000 gateways LOL I'm JANGBANG"
If a Zerg loses his army, he can go "5sh6sh7sh8sh9sh"
Of course he won't lose his army because Dark swarm is around....
If you lose a Terran army it's like herp derp gg.
But don't listen to me. I'm just bad.
Always felt like it was the opposite. 12 marines and 4 medics can kill just about anything, and they're dirt cheap to rebuild. I always had supreme confidence in my M'M armies. It's a pretty steep learning curve to figure out what will kill and won't kill a Terran army, and very unforgiving too. I'll admit that learning how to move out vs Protoss with a mech army is just as unforgiving tho.
M'M was always fun because the ideal army was 24 marines 8 medics and a science vessel, and no matter what you're up against or how much you're hurting for economy, it's still a dangerous thing if you micro it correctly. Probably the reason 90% of people play Terran at all.
On September 21 2011 17:06 CecilSunkure wrote: You won a couple matches? That right there sounds wrong to me. Either I was really really bad at BW, or iCCup just isn't as tough anymore at D level...
There's a *huge* range of skill at D. You've got those that are solid D, nearing D+, but are just missing that "something" to push them to the next rank, then you've got those who are at D purely because they just started playing on that account and are actually CPU level.
Oh that makes more sense. I guess I'm assuming D+ and D are a lot closer than they are.
OP just made me realize I haven't actually sat down and tried to play BW in 10 years. And considering I was very immature 10 years ago, I think it's time to try it again. Even 10 years ago I can remember saying "Oh wow, this this game is harder then Super Return of the Jedi" I'm sure nothing has changed and it's time to re earn my D- status! *insert heroic pose here*
On September 21 2011 05:11 Chill wrote: I had no intention of watching Fantasy vs Jangbi but this blog made me want to go home and watch it now >_< Good job OP
ok it was awesome lol i started typing which one was my favourite game but really all of them were
On September 21 2011 17:06 CecilSunkure wrote: You won a couple matches? That right there sounds wrong to me. Either I was really really bad at BW, or iCCup just isn't as tough anymore at D level...
There's a *huge* range of skill at D. You've got those that are solid D, nearing D+, but are just missing that "something" to push them to the next rank, then you've got those who are at D purely because they just started playing on that account and are actually CPU level.
Oh that makes more sense. I guess I'm assuming D+ and D are a lot closer than they are.
They are and they aren't. There's a huge wide range within each class as well, based on how the system worked. There are people that can JUST hit D+, and are constantly moving in and out of D/D+ on the border. Usually they can't get beyond around 2200 pts. Then there are the people that *can* hold their own in D+, which are mid to high D+ players usually, with some of them edging on C-. The difference between a low D+ that is dropping down to D and a high one that is almost C- is so large that the high D+ would win over 67% of the time most likely.
I was kinda like that at C level, I don't think I ever got beyond 4300 pts . So I never felt like a super solid C, but I was better than the people who got 4001 pts and stopped playing.
On September 21 2011 05:11 Chill wrote: I had no intention of watching Fantasy vs Jangbi but this blog made me want to go home and watch it now >_< Good job OP
ok it was awesome lol i started typing which one was my favourite game but really all of them were
what if this was highlander and I said there could only be one?
On September 21 2011 05:11 Chill wrote: I had no intention of watching Fantasy vs Jangbi but this blog made me want to go home and watch it now >_< Good job OP
ok it was awesome lol i started typing which one was my favourite game but really all of them were
what if this was highlander and I said there could only be one?
On September 21 2011 04:38 hifriend wrote: - Hotkey trainer UMS, is a really great way to train up your macro. You have to constantly micro a worker away from a zealot while building up a base and ultimately killing a zerg ai.. And you have to bring a dropship to an island and rescue a civilian. Also you can't have over 300 unspent minerals.
This is an amazing way to train your apm and multitask in BW. Seriously. I'll vouch for this. I used this a lot, and it helped a lot.
Anyone know of a good single player map like that for SC2? I really could use it right now. I just came off of a 4 month break from SC2, and I don't want to even touch the ladder right now.
I find that map has been out of date for a looong time and teaches bad habit to new players. Like it doesn't make sense to have less than 300 minerals all the time unless your macro is really bad. Even on one base you can support more than 2-3 gateways worth of production if you produce enough probes. It was really made for a time when players didn't bother getting many peons and didn't expand until they were about to run out of minerals. Best way to know if your macro is okay is just to have 0 minerals at the end of your production rounds (which ideally are consecutive without delay).
I don't think you understand..... I did not use it to practice perfect macro or practice my build orders, I used it to hone my multitasking skills as well as make sure I was used to having my fingers running faster than they do in a normal game (to help raise my apm, since I already knew that I wasn't moving fast enough to advance past C-). When I started using these kinds of training maps, in a normal game, I'd have 100 apm, but in this trainer, I'd have like 170-220. after 5-6 months of using these maps consistently, I was able to have closer to 170 apm, and like 280-300 in the trainer map.
There were other maps which helped with other things. Muta micro maps helped practice muta clumping/scourge killing, macro maps made sure I actually had my build orders right, micro tourney maps helped practice somewhat realistic engagements against a real person, etc. I simply used it as a tool to practice some specific thing. And they worked well for that specific task. That's why I advocate using training maps like these.
as far as the range of d players are concerned, iccup (and I assume other servers, never really tried to ladder on korean servers) do have a large range of skill levels. as far as d+ and c- games go:
~1/4 of the games are versus like c+/b- people, either on new account/laddering up/resetting stats. ~1/2 the games are about the right skill level imo. ~5/6 games are versus a protoss where it is hard to judge the skill, because a protoss who plays fighting spirit 24/7 and 12 nex's right or only dt's can get to C fairly easily vs. T despite being good or bad as a player overall.
that's experience as my terran (consistently c- across seasons). I got to C last season being one of those faggot protosses/playing some terran, cheesing his way up.
p.s. if you ever face a random player, d through c- level cheese him back. A random player almost never scouts for proxies, since they are either proxying themselves or hoping he doesn't get his race scouted. If you 2 gate middle of the map vs a random player you'll win like 80% of the time straight up, particularly if they are zerg where they just assume they have an advantage since you won't forge FE.
On September 21 2011 13:27 heha wrote: Also, when I say SC2 Masters Macro, I simply mean understanding the principle of keeping minerals low XD (or attempting to, holy fuck your money rises fast in BW). I will hopefully endeavour to keep at this over the next two weeks, while I'm away from any SC2 access (uni holidays). Playing Random for now, but dear god, with how hard BW is, I'm not sure I can keep it up >.<"
A few years ago I described the learning curve of BW as a vertical face of a cliff! Sounds like you're having an easier time than most!
Your SC2 macro will MAYBE help you get to D+ (haven't played iccup since release and I know the skill required to hit D+ went down), but it won't do much else for you. When I started playing SC2 I played on nothing but BW mechanics for a month and did ok in plat (a year ago). It wasn't enough, but understanding RTS strategy, basic macro mechanics of building workers ovies and units, and how to sidestep my opponent's advantage were priceless to my SC2 experience. Hopefully you have more crossovers than macro!
On September 21 2011 13:27 heha wrote: Also, when I say SC2 Masters Macro, I simply mean understanding the principle of keeping minerals low XD (or attempting to, holy fuck your money rises fast in BW). I will hopefully endeavour to keep at this over the next two weeks, while I'm away from any SC2 access (uni holidays). Playing Random for now, but dear god, with how hard BW is, I'm not sure I can keep it up >.<"
A few years ago I described the learning curve of BW as a vertical face of a cliff! Sounds like you're having an easier time than most!
Your SC2 macro will MAYBE help you get to D+ (haven't played iccup since release and I know the skill required to hit D+ went down), but it won't do much else for you. When I started playing SC2 I played on nothing but BW mechanics for a month and did ok in plat (a year ago). It wasn't enough, but understanding RTS strategy, basic macro mechanics of building workers ovies and units, and how to sidestep my opponent's advantage were priceless to my SC2 experience. Hopefully you have more crossovers than macro!
Tbh bw mechanics easily carried me to high master, I don't think as much as I should when I play sc2, I just tend to have more shit.. I don't have bo's carefully planned out as I did when I was C- on iccup.
On September 21 2011 13:27 heha wrote: Also, when I say SC2 Masters Macro, I simply mean understanding the principle of keeping minerals low XD (or attempting to, holy fuck your money rises fast in BW). I will hopefully endeavour to keep at this over the next two weeks, while I'm away from any SC2 access (uni holidays). Playing Random for now, but dear god, with how hard BW is, I'm not sure I can keep it up >.<"
Your SC2 macro will MAYBE help you get to D+ (haven't played iccup since release and I know the skill required to hit D+ went down), but it won't do much else for you.
I'm not exactly sure of that. It varies a lot game to game; a "true d+" level may be lower or the same imo, but sometimes you run into only people who are "really" c or higher. So depending on luck of who you play, it can be a lot harder to progress ranks or a little bit easier.
at least that was my experience last 2 seasons of iccup. And I know I definitely improved my game quite a bit but didn't translate into a totally different experience; skill of opponents was not too noticeably different for me (if any, I felt I ran into more games where I had no chance--making the ladder harder-- as the other person would "really" be about c+ to b- level, based on their previous seasons or just general play).
On September 21 2011 05:11 Chill wrote: I had no intention of watching Fantasy vs Jangbi but this blog made me want to go home and watch it now >_< Good job OP
ok it was awesome lol i started typing which one was my favourite game but really all of them were
what if this was highlander and I said there could only be one?
On September 21 2011 17:06 CecilSunkure wrote: You won a couple matches? That right there sounds wrong to me. Either I was really really bad at BW, or iCCup just isn't as tough anymore at D level...
There's a *huge* range of skill at D. You've got those that are solid D, nearing D+, but are just missing that "something" to push them to the next rank, then you've got those who are at D purely because they just started playing on that account and are actually CPU level.
Oh that makes more sense. I guess I'm assuming D+ and D are a lot closer than they are.
They are and they aren't. There's a huge wide range within each class as well, based on how the system worked. There are people that can JUST hit D+, and are constantly moving in and out of D/D+ on the border. Usually they can't get beyond around 2200 pts. Then there are the people that *can* hold their own in D+, which are mid to high D+ players usually, with some of them edging on C-. The difference between a low D+ that is dropping down to D and a high one that is almost C- is so large that the high D+ would win over 67% of the time most likely.
I was kinda like that at C level, I don't think I ever got beyond 4300 pts . So I never felt like a super solid C, but I was better than the people who got 4001 pts and stopped playing.
Yea, D/D+ is basically skill level in itself. A player that is 900-1500 will play significantly worse than a 1700-2300 player. And same with 2500-2900ish range. At least from my experience.
On September 21 2011 04:54 Tatari wrote: I remember some people saying D for Diamond.
And that's one hell of an understatement. Playing BW helps so much with mechanics, and it's more fun than SC2 imo. I'd still play it if iCCup didn't make a dead corpse look like it could dance to 5 songs at once.
I only remember that back before Masters was around. I'd say if you're a "solid" D, as in having 1500+ points (anything below 1500 pts and you might as well be D-), you're about on par with low masters in SC2.
SC2 helped me tremendously because I've always had incredibly high game sense, and good relative eAPM to my actual APM, but just struggled mechanically with low overall APM (got up to aroudn 120 by the end, but first achieved C around 90 APM with Zerg/Toss). I always knew what to do and could almost always outplay my opponents strategically at that level but couldn't keep up with the macro. MBS is a friggin' godsend that shot me up relatively, I've beaten many former A players from BW as both zerg and Terran in SC2.
On September 21 2011 04:49 OpticalShot wrote: You can still bio in TvP... just that it'll become an all-in strategy. It actually works well once you learn the timing window against a Protoss that skips out on AoE (reaver / high templar) for more goon-heavy composition. Also, I think someone used bio to counter carriers in a televised match (marines to pick off interceptors) but it ended up failing lol.
Marines vs Carriers is a good strat but only if you scout it early and it HAS to be 2 base carrier, nothing else, I believe.
That's probably an overstatement. I would compare the jump from high diamond to low masters to the jump from a solid D to a solid D+.
I played BW for years and peaked at B- one season (average ~4500 solid C for most seasons), and it wasn't THAT easy to get into Masters simply due to the nature of SC2.
Ofcourse Broodwar is the harder game, its not even a competition. If you switch back from Starcraft 2 to Broodwar, and I was actually decent you feel like a complete newbie. The unit selection, macro and control is so much harder...
Try out Sc2BW if you don't like the graphics, its already hard, still a bit easier but fucking hard.
Yeah, at first when I played BW I was frustrated and surprised at how difficult everything was, makes you admire the S class guys (the few there are) even more, doesn't it?
You get used to it pretty quickly though, even if you started with SC2, if you're even decent at SC2 You'll start picking up on things, and macro will become easier.
I play terran in BW and SC2. In SC2 I have all the production on one hotkey, just personal preference. Feels easier and more natural to tab around as opposed to shifting between 3 and 5 and 6-9 because there's a lower chance of missing the button and screwing up.
Anyway, so basically to even have a chance of getting out a good round of units (in BW) when I'm up at 3+ barracks/factories, I have to look down at my keyboard and use two hands (v_v) which is pretty depressing considering how auto-pilot it is when I macro in SC2.
"then just overran him with SC2 Masters macro lategame."
That part made me laugh When u reach a decent level, like C+ u'll also meet ppl who can scout/micro/macro at the same time! I suggest that u practise always having your army out on the map, close to his base while maintaining good macro. U'll improve a lot faster!
I believe new account signups should be forced to read this thread. Almost like a TOS agreement.
BW is the one game that will bring me the most nostalgia in my lifetime. This is one of the only times it's better to be old and to have experienced it in it's raw essence than young and not aware that it's there.
Oh, and for every new sc2 player that takes a chance and installs this holy grail of a game, somewhere in the world a young hardworking man or woman becomes a doctor.
On September 21 2011 04:44 Chill wrote: SC2 players are generally pretty dismissive of the claim that BW is a lot harder than SC2. But it's true. BW is fucking hard as hell. So I like this Blog. Take these 5 stars.
It's funny, you go back and play BW now and go "wow that was insanely hard", but then your old reflexes come back to you and you can cope once again.
SO true ;;; I was playing a couple of months ago again and boy is macroing hydras fun.
Haha and control groups ... How easy it really is to use like 4 control groups for one army yet I just don't do that in SC2 because I am so bad and lazy :-(
Maybe I should try iccup again. Last time I did I couldn't get any games but super laggy Koreans
On September 21 2011 04:44 Chill wrote: SC2 players are generally pretty dismissive of the claim that BW is a lot harder than SC2. But it's true. BW is fucking hard as hell. So I like this Blog. Take these 5 stars.
On September 22 2011 19:08 JollYRoGeR wrote: "then just overran him with SC2 Masters macro lategame."
That part made me laugh When u reach a decent level, like C+ u'll also meet ppl who can scout/micro/macro at the same time! I suggest that u practise always having your army out on the map, close to his base while maintaining good macro. U'll improve a lot faster!
I remember when I got to a certain point on ladder where I couldn't just out macro the people I played. Like, I would play a Korean PvP and we would do the same exact build, and I had to learn how to simply improve my gameplay and macro and just outplay him rather than using some random trick or something like that. It was such a good feeling though!
That's what I loved about Brood War. You had to put a lot of time into getting better, but when you play a player that looks to be pretty decent and you just outplay him and prove yourself to be superior, it's such an amazing feeling. In Brood War, winning proved you were more of a man.
this blog makes me want to play BW again. I only played 2 games on ICCUP. Went 1-1. After a single game, I could not do anything for the rest of the day, soooo mentally taxing.
On September 21 2011 04:35 heha wrote: then just overran him with SC2 Masters macro lategame.
Yeah dude, that SC2 masters macro sure is scary.
On a more serious note, congrats on exploring the beauty of Brood War land... wish I could go back and be so newbie and experience that great feeling of learning BW all over again. Have fun and enjoy your adventures!
that actually made me laugh the most
But sadly iccup now even at D+ or higher level is filled with players that in its active seasons would be d-.
If you got the collector's edition of WOL, you got free SCBW on the flash drive that came with it. I played SCBW back in the day when I was in Junior High/High School (the 90s!).
That was HARD. I peaked out around C-, but spent most of my time playing elevator up and down the D ranks. Still stuck in Plat in SC2.
I can only imagine how insane playing bw is when all you've known in sc2. I imagine many workers sitting idly next to the mineral patches they were rallied to.
I think the only thing that really made BW (zerg especially) super hardcore for me is not having enough hotkeys.
Automining, MBS, etc. are completely unnecessary, but what I disliked about BW and made the game hard for me was that I'd always run out of hotkeys since I played zerg. When I offrace as protoss and to a lesser degree terran, this problem is less pronounced, but as zerg... it was hell having to 5sh6sh7sh8sd9sd, 1a2a3a4a... oh wait there are no more freaking hotkeys, have to manually select
It was honestly a choice between better macro or better unit management. On 1 hand, if I had hatches on hotkeys 5/6 to 0, I'd have random groups of lings dying to pokes since I'm no progamer and can't react fast enough without the units on a hotkey. On the other hand, if I used more hotkeys for unit control groups my macro would inevitably slip.
My own frustration of course makes me respect the S-class zerg players that much more.
On September 24 2011 02:24 Jonoman92 wrote: I can only imagine how insane playing bw is when all you've known in sc2. I imagine many workers sitting idly next to the mineral patches they were rallied to.
The things that drove me insane the most are: Getting a worker out of the mineral line. Building stuff. If you just tell a guy to build something, they will find the lamest excuse not to. You need to babysit everything and make sure they'll get to work before doing real stuff. Getting things moving. Apparently choke points lose 90% of their strategical value if things that pass through it are not disarmingly stupid. Pullback micro. Units get stuck EVERYWHERE. Move back the weak ones, HA. Probes are simply OP.
Update: OK, so after that impressive 4-1 (must have been matched against the D---- people >.<), I now have a total impressive record of 6-14 O.o Haha, this is ridiculously hard, I haven't had one game where I've managed to keep low mins XD Sticking to Terran nowadays... BW4LYFE!
P.S. (well not really, once I get back to SC2 access I'll stick to that I promise to check in on BW every now and again though! And the experience has been extremely beneficial, insofar as I now understand the enormity of the skill difference between the two games >.<)
I went from top masters into first time bw, played for almost 2 months now, i don't think I ever had a wr higher than 35% at any point, i was having confidence issues after reading 4-1 :D
EPT
as both zerg and Terran in SC2.
fuck terran is imba bunker rushed by C or B smurfs all day
