EPTPower Rank 08/11/2011 - Page 16
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Crisium
United States1618 Posts
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infinity2k9
United Kingdom2397 Posts
So onto the Ace anyway, a prepared Fantasy would be the best option if Bisu thinks he can't do it. The plan was simply hope Flash does the same as the previous games? He went so quickly up to 4 bases and beat him easily at his own macro style, it was so obvious what was going to happen when it was equal bases for so long. I feel at least Bisu would have bought some special quality that we know he's capable of to the match. Wouldn't have been taking mine hits for no reason in the middle of the map either. A well prepared Fantasy would have been my choice though probably, he can beat anyone on his day. | ||
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Trias
Netherlands53 Posts
On August 30 2011 16:52 Crisium wrote: Those are the rules as they always have been - I did not arbitrate them. Mind your attitude. You do not count games twice. PR's are rarely from the 1st to the 30th of each month. The next PR begins when the previous ended. The previous ended on August 11th. ZerO's games do not count. Nothing wrong with your ranking mate, just keep that in mind. The PR never has been a strictly month by month thing. Games from previous months have always affected the ranking to some degree. If you are going to be arbitrarily strict about it, then there is even less reason not to take august and september together, because the rank of september would be bases of just two (very slow) weeks. | ||
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
On August 30 2011 14:44 Crisium wrote: Thanks for hating my opinion so much... ha!  I don't think telling the community that By.Sun made a bigger splash and impressed people more than ZerO in August is "no quality left in Broodwar". I think it's fact.About ZerO: ZerO's current superior standing (which you are correct in) is nicely reflected in Kespa and ELO where he is, rightfully so, many, many, miles ahead of By.Sun. Like, light-years ahead of him. Let the PR be something different! Are you not a believer of my time capsule theory? Look back from the future on August, and be reminded that By.Sun did something (imo, something more important than only 8 of his peers). ZerO did absolutely nothing. Looking back at the September Kespa rank will tell you ZerO is one of the top 5 players. Let the PR be something different. Otherwise, let's just end it. "I'd be happier if we play copypasta with the KeSPA ranking". That's heresy. I always liked the balance between ELO, Kespa, and PR in determine how good players are at any given time. Let ELO and Kespa inform the fanbase that ZerO is indeed a top tier player right now. Let PR tell you that By.Sun made a bigger impact in August. Because he did. By.Sun affected the Broodwar scene in August infinitely more than ZerO. Hell yeah he should be ranked higher. Let the PR be a monthly who did what list. And before someone reacts with "just compile a win/loss statistics" I am not advocating that (or else 1-0 Stats, Bisu, Hoejja would be below 5-0 By.Sun). But if the PR isn't gonna be more focused on one-month than Kespa... then let's just end it now. tl;dr: Someone asks "Who are the 10 best players in Broodwar right now?" you point them to Kespa and ELO where ZerO is ma bonjwa incarnate. PR only partially answers that question. PR also answers "Who kicked ass and took names this past month?" or "Who has been hot recently (roughly 30 days)". And if you're gonna tell me ZerO kicked more ass than By.Sun in the past 30-odd days, then I'm gonna kick your ass.  You have totally got the wrong idea of what PR is, and always has been. It's NEVER EVER EVER been a "one month only" ranking. The most recent month is weighted most heavily, but is NEVER the only thing considered. I have pointed out many, MANY times over the course of the past few YEARS the fallacy in that kind of thinking and the pointlessness of such a ranking. And the PR writers never listen to that kind of person anyway. Existing precedent for this was set all the way back in early 2007, when PR was first being started. Don't act like I'm the one trying to "change" PR when it's you. KeSPA ranking is an accomplishments ranking, which is something completely different. Of course accomplishments factor into "power" but a player can have a lot of power without having accomplished particularly much. ELO compares the statistical results of different players (lifetime) but it takes some time to adjust to new data (amount of time depending on quantity of data) and it weights all results evenly. Power Rank attempts to not only find a balance between statistics and accomplishments, but to add in subjective qualities as well. Maybe Zerg player A got eliminated early from the tournament but he was eliminated by Light. Maybe Bisu loses group of death, but let's face it: either Flash, JD, or Bisu was being sent home. Maybe player A just had bad luck against player B. Power Rank takes all of this into account. PR always has been something different, in case you haven't been paying attention. And if you want to kick my ass? Come. I am in a very violent mood right now. | ||
swanized
Canada2480 Posts
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Crisium
United States1618 Posts
I'm saying that ZerO is an exception. Playing 0 games simply makes him ineligible. Is that the worst thing in the world, if he sits out one PR because he's not playing games? Is there precedent for this (besides Yellow #2 and Power Outage tributes)? Has a player ever played 0 games and made the PR? How can you rank him? "Power Rank attempts to not only find a balance between statistics and accomplishments, but to add in subjective qualities as well." He has no statistics to offer since he was last judged. He has accomplished nothing since his rank was last determined. No one has seen him play since last evaluation, so how could he be subjectively assessed? Leaving him off the PR isn't saying that ZerO's skilled have diminished below 10 of his peers. It's saying that we can't properly gauge his power right now, because we haven't seen him. I suspect if I threw ZerO in the top 5 in my food for thought ranking, you'd think it was fine. Maybe if I also lowered Fantasy, JangBi, and Stats a rank or two would also help. It's really not that radical, and it not limited in scope to only 30 days - anything earlier is considered strongly which is why I don't want By.Sun in the top 5. In fact, Stats being so high is a tribute that this guy had the 4th best SPL record (I think) but has seen virtually no PR treatment all season. But he deserved it with a clutch win in the grand finals that backed up his strong record. My ass I said "30 days only". I said it needs to be more focused on one month than copy/paste Kespa ranking. But, the exception is that if you don't play at all, whatsoever, since the last ranking, then you are simply ineligible. It would trouble me to see By.Sun in the CBNC and to see ZerO push him out of the top 10 when the latter did nothing. Let the PR forget him for a month because everyone who watched professional Broodwar certainly didn't have any eyes on ZerO. | ||
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Crisium
United States1618 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/powerrank/index.php?prid=33 Fine. Put ZerO on the PR. Sorry. Just don't get the idea that I only want the past 30 days and nothing more to matter. I like to do my faux PR ranking based on how I "feel" about the power of players when I watch them (in which past results are not forgotten), and I could not watch ZerO and feel his power, so logically (to me) he simply skips a PR. But the precedent is to keep them around the same spot. So I guess Flamewheel will have to put ZerO on the list, but good luck figuring out which players he deserves to be ranked over, I don't want that job whether it's now or in 30 days. | ||
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
Look, if a player doesn't play because he was dropped to B-team that's different. Similarly, when Flash is out from his surgery he will be removed from the ranking because he will not be playing, period. (There's no guarantee Flash will still be able to play BW after his surgery. Our thoughts will be with him.) This past month players weren't in games were not necessarily off the rank due to poor play. Zero + Bogus + Soulkey, etc, deserve consideration even though they didn't play. Which is where things get ugly. A ranking released right now would have to weight games in July the same as games in August. Acknowledge the fact that few games have been played and deal with it accordingly. As for one month only, that's in reference to this passage: "Let PR tell you that By.Sun made a bigger impact in August. Because he did. By.Sun affected the Broodwar scene in August infinitely more than ZerO. Hell yeah he should be ranked higher. Let the PR be a monthly who did what list." I'm saying that if Sun could be said to have affected BW countably infinitely more in August, Zero's power could be said to have been uncountably greater coming into August. That's my point. It's not an accurate reflection of the state of Starcraft right now. If a month goes by and only 1 and exactly 1 game is played, would that make the winner of that game the most powerful player in the world? No fucking way. In the end, 1 game is just 1 game. What we have to consider is "how has what we seen recently changed our impression of the way things are?" A different problem entirely. And one that addresses the state of Starcraft. | ||
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Crisium
United States1618 Posts
And regardless of if ZerO is ahead of him, By.Sun still deserves a top 10 treatment - even if #10. What are your thoughts on Jaedong? Besides his stellar ZvT, his play hasn't been nearly what it used to be. #10 might be harsh, but I don't think he deserves to make the top 6. The current 4 ahead of him plus Fantasy and JangBi are a given to be ranked higher than him, and you could definitely make a case for a number of other players. JD's power is definitely waning. | ||
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
Honestly, I'd be tempted to drop Soo to CBNC. Yes he advanced in OSL, but 1 win by DQ and then 1 win where he was BARELY able to overcome Killer with a 9 pool v 12 hat BO advantage is lame. And he of course If I made a ranking right now... here's a tentative look: 1. Flash -okay 2. Hydra -might be high but reflects his rank and his chances 3. Bisu -stays same 4. Zero -could be swapped with Bisu 5. Jangbi -for a short while the magic was back. then it died down. And now it's flared again. Needs more consistency to move up 6. Fantasy -love Fanta but Fanta loves to trollolololol the rankings by sporadically raping and then sucking. Until he beats higher caliber opponents he stays down here. Perfective and Hyuk?... 7. Stats -his role in achieving KT's win cannot be overlooked. Smashed 3 PR opponents in the playoffs 8. Jaedong -he's slipping, but is there anyone I haven't mentioned so far that you'd pick as a favorite to win vs the Dong in a boX? His star might be waning but he's still just That. Damn. Good. 9. Hoejja -I almost feel guilty having him this low after his big success. 10. ? Candidates for 10: Soo, Sun, Bogus, Killer, Light, Horang2 (all should be considered as possible CBNC candidates) This isn't a *great* ranking by any stretch of the imagination, but it more accurately reflects the state of BW I think. I'm not going to dip everything into the OSL hat because SPL is between seasons (assuming there is another season) and MSL is lagging. STX Masters isn't the biggest factor in determining how I rank players since it's really just an exhibition league. | ||
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Dakkas
2550 Posts
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
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villageidiot
353 Posts
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sixfour
England11060 Posts
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Crisium
United States1618 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=258413¤tpage=11#221 I think that will revitalize the comments, because you can clearly see that there are far, far less comments this month thanks to the removal from the side. As an addendum to that post, it would also be a good idea for the top of the comments thread (above CBNC) to have a link to the actual PR so people accessing the comments thread in the BW section have an easy 1-click link to the PR (since Features>PR has been forgotten). | ||
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OlorinTheWise
United States173 Posts
On August 31 2011 15:51 Dakkas wrote: Crucify me Mortality but I wouldn't really trust Jaedong in a BoX right now against a lot of the top-tier players With his current ZvT form I'd say he's favored against any Terran player in a BoX series, I'd even give him the nod over Flash given how he's dominated their recent games. And, as much as people rag on his ZvP, he still hasn't dropped a ZvP BoX series since WCG Korea 2009 vs. Stork, which was over two years ago. The only player who I think would be truly favored against him in PvZ would be Bisu, if Bisu ever actually manages to reach the later stages of a Starleague again... On the other hand, his ZvZ has just not been right since his loss to HoGiL late last year. There was always a split second killer instinct to his ZvZ before that point that is just missing in his current form. I don't think there's anything mechanically wrong, from watching his games, but his ZvZ game-sense seems to have completely deserted him. I'd favor anyone competent in ZvZ over him at the moment, sadly. :/ | ||
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Crisium
United States1618 Posts
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VGhost
United States3606 Posts
On September 02 2011 01:49 Crisium wrote: I made this suggestion in the feedback thread, but I want to link it here incase it helps matters. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=258413¤tpage=11#221 I think that will revitalize the comments, because you can clearly see that there are far, far less comments this month thanks to the removal from the side. While I'm all for putting the PR "back where it belongs", there weren't that many comments before it was moved and (apart from the OSL Ro8 results) there really hasn't been anything definitive to cause a debate – not enough games. | ||
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revy
United States1524 Posts
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
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