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swanized
Canada2480 Posts
On August 27 2011 18:46 Dakkas wrote: You make it sound like the DQ was the ONLY reason why Soo advanced. Did you forget who won the second game? Stop hating I indeed make it sound like the DQ was the only reason why SoO advanced because soO's not at killer's level and I believe that he cannot take a bo3 from killer under normal circumstances. | ||
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IntoTheEmo
Singapore1169 Posts
On August 29 2011 01:30 swanized wrote: I indeed make it sound like the DQ was the only reason why SoO advanced because soO's not at killer's level and I believe that he cannot take a bo3 from killer under normal circumstances. Maybe, or he could forget to build a sunken and die to 1 base ling allin again. Shrug, I don't think you can safely say Killer would have won that set too. Personally I'm not an SKT fan, I'm actually pretty happy that Killer is stepping up these days and wanted him to advance, but I don't think SoO deserves the hate. He has done decently in SPL, I wouldn't say he doesn't deserve to be in the Ro4, plus it's kind of interesting that we could have another Royal Roader. We'll see how he fares against JangBi ^^ Next month's gonna be tough to call, losses vs lack of games, >< Jaedong... | ||
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Ideas
United States8143 Posts
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
On August 25 2011 05:46 Mortality wrote: Pray to the OLD GODS whose names have been forgotten in all but a few eldritch tomes of Starcraft lore. Giyom, you who are called God From The Time Before Gods in the hallowed pages of the Necrobroodwaricon, I invoke thy spirit! IntoTheRain, Storm King Of The Stars, I call thy thunder! And to the elder Protoss spirit who achieved more success than any in the legendary Colosseum of Ongamenet, to the Emperor Slayer Garimto I say, "Let there be proxies!" There, better? Wait, so this worked? Poor Flash. I sicked 3 gods on him and now he's eliminated. | ||
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GolemMadness
Canada11044 Posts
On August 27 2011 18:46 Dakkas wrote: You make it sound like the DQ was the ONLY reason why Soo advanced. Did you forget who won the second game? Stop hating In a BO win where Soo still almost lost. | ||
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Trias
Netherlands53 Posts
The poll is almost tied, and I haven't seen a final word on this from flamewheel. | ||
flamewheel
FREEAGLELAND26781 Posts
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Crisium
United States1618 Posts
Here's my food for thought. 1.  FlashFlash goes 2-0 in the SPL finals, securing his teams second consecutive championship. A hard fought 1-2 loss to JangBi ends his current OSL run, but Flash proved he is still the best this month. 2. FantasyFantasy continues his perfect OSL run as he looks for back-to-back golds. Hyuk is not a top contender, but we can no longer punish Fantasy for things beyond his control such as teamkills. Fantasy, however, was definitely in control of his SPL finals game, stopping Perfective's early (2-base?) mutas. 3.  JangBiI considered JB for #2, but he still has to redeem his proleague playoff losses to Zergs. There are even many people that consider Soo to be the favourite in their Ro4 match. JangBi will have to prove himself in September. Btw, he beat Flash in a BoX. 4.  HydraHydra continues to prove that he'll never lose a ZvZ BoX. With Flash fallen, there are many that consider Hydra to be the best contender for OSL champ this season. He once again makes an individual league semi-final appearance. 5. StatsStats was a monster in the regular season, and pulled it together in the finals with a much needed win over ZvP sniper Soo. It's a shame we won't be seeing him again until the SPL season starts up, but has proven to be a top toss. 6. BisuBisu continues to prove that he can beat a Zerg on the highest stage. 7. n.Die_soOSoo advanced from the OSL Ro8 with a narrow 8. HoeJJaMore than anyone, this guy changed the momentum of the SPL finals. Down 2-0, Hoejja proved he can win a clutch ZvZ. He has had a hot record for a number of months now, so kudos to Hoejja. 9. By.SunHow did he beat Action again? I'm still not clear on that one, but his victory made SKT fans salivate at the thoughts of a Championship. Not to be outdone by Flash, Sun then all-kills Oz in the STX Masters Cup finals. This guy is in great position to be a top toss next SPL season. 10. JaedongWhy JD and not Killer? Surely 3-4 beats 1-2? (including STXMC) Na. Killer would have gotten this spot if he didn't press pause. But when it comes down to it, I thought Jaedong played better against Sun in the MC Finals. Yeah, the lack of games this month makes me decide who lost better. JD's muta tech switch could have been a genius move, but it wasn't. JD, we can't remove you from the PR yet, no sir. CBNC: Shoutout: ZerO, EffOrt (he's back!)No ZerO because he didn't play this month. I don't consider it punishment in this case. It's simply that he was ineligible for the PR. I'm sure he will tear up the MSL Ro32 in October and the SPL when it resumes, but until he plays a game he can't make the PR. The PR is the legacy of players that made an impact in that month, and ZerO didn't even place his fingerprint on a keyboard this month, sorry. Killer should be #10, shouldn't he. My logic doesn't even make sense to me =\. But I think not having a PR just so that JD's streak doesn't end is not a good idea. But who knows if he deserves to make the top 10 (up to you Mr. Flamewheel). | ||
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Release
United States4397 Posts
On August 30 2011 03:41 Crisium wrote: I think there are just enough games to do September PR (aka August results). Here's my food for thought. 1. FlashFlash goes 2-0 in the SPL finals, securing his teams second consecutive championship. A hard fought 1-2 loss to JangBi ends his current OSL run, but Flash proved he is still the best this month. 2. FantasyFantasy continues his perfect OSL run as he looks for back-to-back golds. Hyuk is not a top contender, but we can no longer punish Fantasy for things beyond his control such as teamkills. Fantasy, however, was definitely in control of his SPL finals game, stopping Perfective's early (2-base?) mutas. 3. JangBiI considered JB for #2, but he still has to redeem his proleague playoff losses to Zergs. There are even many people that consider Soo to be the favourite in their Ro4 match. JangBi will have to prove himself in September. Btw, he beat Flash in a BoX. 4. HydraHydra continues to prove that he'll never lose a ZvZ BoX. With Flash fallen, there are many that consider Hydra to be the best contender for OSL champ this season. He once again makes an individual league semi-final appearance. 5. StatsStats was a monster in the regular season, and pulled it together in the finals with a much needed win over ZvP sniper Soo. It's a shame we won't be seeing him again until the SPL season starts up, but has proven to be a top toss. 6. BisuBisu continues to prove that he can beat a Zerg on the highest stage. 7. n.Die_soOSoo advanced from the OSL Ro8 with a narrow 8. HoeJJaMore than anyone, this guy changed the momentum of the SPL finals. Down 2-0, Hoejja proved he can win a clutch ZvZ. He has had a hot record for a number of months now, so kudos to Hoejja. 9. By.SunHow did he beat Action again? I'm still not clear on that one, but his victory made SKT fans salivate at the thoughts of a Championship. Not to be outdone by Flash, Sun then all-kills Oz in the STX Masters Cup finals. This guy is in great position to be a top toss next SPL season. 10. JaedongWhy JD and not Killer? Surely 3-4 beats 1-2? (including STXMC) Na. Killer would have gotten this spot if he didn't press pause. But when it comes down to it, I thought Jaedong played better against Sun in the MC Finals. Yeah, the lack of games this month makes me decide who lost better. JD's muta tech switch could have been a genius move, but it wasn't. JD, we can't remove you from the PR yet, no sir. CBNC: Shoutout: ZerO, EffOrt (he's back!)No ZerO because he didn't play this month. I don't consider it punishment in this case. It's simply that he was ineligible for the PR. I'm sure he will tear up the MSL Ro32 in October and the SPL when it resumes, but until he plays a game he can't make the PR. The PR is the legacy of players that made an impact in that month, and ZerO didn't even place his fingerprint on a keyboard this month, sorry. Killer should be #10, shouldn't he. My logic doesn't even make sense to me =\. But I think not having a PR just so that JD's streak doesn't end is not a good idea. But who knows if he deserves to make the top 10 (up to you Mr. Flamewheel). 2 Terran at top and rest P and Z. Almost reminds me of kespa ranking. And Jaedong played horribly. Anyone with half a sense would not try to cannon break while high templars are ready with storm. Killer didn't play quite so greedy or stubborn as JD, but nonetheless badly. I miss the days when shine actually did 5/6 hatch hydra successfully. | ||
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oldgregg
New Zealand1176 Posts
On August 30 2011 03:41 Crisium wrote: I think there are just enough games to do September PR (aka August results). Here's my food for thought. 1. FlashFlash goes 2-0 in the SPL finals, securing his teams second consecutive championship. A hard fought 1-2 loss to JangBi ends his current OSL run, but Flash proved he is still the best this month. 2. FantasyFantasy continues his perfect OSL run as he looks for back-to-back golds. Hyuk is not a top contender, but we can no longer punish Fantasy for things beyond his control such as teamkills. Fantasy, however, was definitely in control of his SPL finals game, stopping Perfective's early (2-base?) mutas. 3. JangBiI considered JB for #2, but he still has to redeem his proleague playoff losses to Zergs. There are even many people that consider Soo to be the favourite in their Ro4 match. JangBi will have to prove himself in September. Btw, he beat Flash in a BoX. 4. HydraHydra continues to prove that he'll never lose a ZvZ BoX. With Flash fallen, there are many that consider Hydra to be the best contender for OSL champ this season. He once again makes an individual league semi-final appearance. 5. StatsStats was a monster in the regular season, and pulled it together in the finals with a much needed win over ZvP sniper Soo. It's a shame we won't be seeing him again until the SPL season starts up, but has proven to be a top toss. 6. BisuBisu continues to prove that he can beat a Zerg on the highest stage. 7. n.Die_soOSoo advanced from the OSL Ro8 with a narrow 8. HoeJJaMore than anyone, this guy changed the momentum of the SPL finals. Down 2-0, Hoejja proved he can win a clutch ZvZ. He has had a hot record for a number of months now, so kudos to Hoejja. 9. By.SunHow did he beat Action again? I'm still not clear on that one, but his victory made SKT fans salivate at the thoughts of a Championship. Not to be outdone by Flash, Sun then all-kills Oz in the STX Masters Cup finals. This guy is in great position to be a top toss next SPL season. 10. JaedongWhy JD and not Killer? Surely 3-4 beats 1-2? (including STXMC) Na. Killer would have gotten this spot if he didn't press pause. But when it comes down to it, I thought Jaedong played better against Sun in the MC Finals. Yeah, the lack of games this month makes me decide who lost better. JD's muta tech switch could have been a genius move, but it wasn't. JD, we can't remove you from the PR yet, no sir. CBNC: Shoutout: ZerO, EffOrt (he's back!)No ZerO because he didn't play this month. I don't consider it punishment in this case. It's simply that he was ineligible for the PR. I'm sure he will tear up the MSL Ro32 in October and the SPL when it resumes, but until he plays a game he can't make the PR. The PR is the legacy of players that made an impact in that month, and ZerO didn't even place his fingerprint on a keyboard this month, sorry. Killer should be #10, shouldn't he. My logic doesn't even make sense to me =\. But I think not having a PR just so that JD's streak doesn't end is not a good idea. But who knows if he deserves to make the top 10 (up to you Mr. Flamewheel). looks pretty good, i'm liking the fact that you keep jaedong on just coz he's jaedong  | ||
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Foolishness
United States3044 Posts
By.Sun should be higher than 9. All killing Oz deserves more credit, especially since he plowed through Jaedong, Killer (who's definitely at or near his peak), and HiyA (who has always been a great asset in winner's league formats). | ||
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Release
United States4397 Posts
On August 30 2011 11:16 oldgregg wrote: looks pretty good, i'm liking the fact that you keep jaedong on just coz he's jaedong I've never liked "i kept xxx on PR because he is xxx (even though he didn't accomplish crap)" it's happened to bisu a once that i remember (he was 5 i think), and has kept less recognized player out of the PR. | ||
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
On August 30 2011 03:41 Crisium wrote: I think there are just enough games to do September PR (aka August results). Here's my food for thought. 1. FlashFlash goes 2-0 in the SPL finals, securing his teams second consecutive championship. A hard fought 1-2 loss to JangBi ends his current OSL run, but Flash proved he is still the best this month. 2. FantasyFantasy continues his perfect OSL run as he looks for back-to-back golds. Hyuk is not a top contender, but we can no longer punish Fantasy for things beyond his control such as teamkills. Fantasy, however, was definitely in control of his SPL finals game, stopping Perfective's early (2-base?) mutas. 3. JangBiI considered JB for #2, but he still has to redeem his proleague playoff losses to Zergs. There are even many people that consider Soo to be the favourite in their Ro4 match. JangBi will have to prove himself in September. Btw, he beat Flash in a BoX. 4. HydraHydra continues to prove that he'll never lose a ZvZ BoX. With Flash fallen, there are many that consider Hydra to be the best contender for OSL champ this season. He once again makes an individual league semi-final appearance. 5. StatsStats was a monster in the regular season, and pulled it together in the finals with a much needed win over ZvP sniper Soo. It's a shame we won't be seeing him again until the SPL season starts up, but has proven to be a top toss. 6. BisuBisu continues to prove that he can beat a Zerg on the highest stage. 7. n.Die_soOSoo advanced from the OSL Ro8 with a narrow 8. HoeJJaMore than anyone, this guy changed the momentum of the SPL finals. Down 2-0, Hoejja proved he can win a clutch ZvZ. He has had a hot record for a number of months now, so kudos to Hoejja. 9. By.SunHow did he beat Action again? I'm still not clear on that one, but his victory made SKT fans salivate at the thoughts of a Championship. Not to be outdone by Flash, Sun then all-kills Oz in the STX Masters Cup finals. This guy is in great position to be a top toss next SPL season. 10. JaedongWhy JD and not Killer? Surely 3-4 beats 1-2? (including STXMC) Na. Killer would have gotten this spot if he didn't press pause. But when it comes down to it, I thought Jaedong played better against Sun in the MC Finals. Yeah, the lack of games this month makes me decide who lost better. JD's muta tech switch could have been a genius move, but it wasn't. JD, we can't remove you from the PR yet, no sir. CBNC: Shoutout: ZerO, EffOrt (he's back!)No ZerO because he didn't play this month. I don't consider it punishment in this case. It's simply that he was ineligible for the PR. I'm sure he will tear up the MSL Ro32 in October and the SPL when it resumes, but until he plays a game he can't make the PR. The PR is the legacy of players that made an impact in that month, and ZerO didn't even place his fingerprint on a keyboard this month, sorry. Killer should be #10, shouldn't he. My logic doesn't even make sense to me =\. But I think not having a PR just so that JD's streak doesn't end is not a good idea. But who knows if he deserves to make the top 10 (up to you Mr. Flamewheel). This list is far too chaotic for my tastes. Although it might reflect the past month's results accurately, it is a poor reflection of the state of Starcraft as a whole. Which, I think, emphasizes the point that waiting for more data rather than trying to toss together a new ranking ad hoc just because we've flipped a page on the calendar might be a wise decision. If we're so fucking desperate for a new PR just because the month has changed, I'd be happier if we play copypasta with the KeSPA ranking -- which would be infinitely better than By.Sun being called "more powerful" than Zero. | ||
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Crisium
United States1618 Posts
I mean, ZerO did not show any power last month because he didn't play. What can you say? Ultimately more than anything, I view the PR as a time capsule. A year from now or whenever, if you feel like taking a look at who was making names for themselves in August 2011, you'd look at the September PR. And ZerO should not be there because he did nothing. I know there's no rule of a PR every month, but that's what it really is. And guess what, if you wait until the end of September, are you gonna see ZerO make the list? No, because he's not playing any games in September either. The monthly nature is what separates the PR from ELO and Kespa (Kespa is monthly, but different of course). I want that time capsule feeling, and seeing ZerO there just messes it up. Now, if someone views the September 2011 Kespa rank for posterity's sake, then they see ZerO in the top 5. That gets them the reflection of the state of Starcraft as a whole. The PR has to be more focused; more limited in scope. Kespa tells me who is hot in any particular month and the 11 preceding - I'd rather PR tell me who is hot just in one particular month (albeit with recent results padding the "benefit of the doubt" ranking). Now if you wait another 30 days, what's really gonna change? What's this "waiting for more data" you speak of? You'd simply see a month with only 9-15 games with Fantasy, Hydra, and JangBi ordered slightly differently based on whoever won the OSL. Either way they are #2-#4, imho. Let's just put out a ranking now. Embrace the volatility of August. September will have very few games played, and that's the month to skip. After October, we can throw together the OSL semis+ final (only 9-15 games) with the MSL Ro32 and the beginning of proleague. I dunno, that's what makes sense to me. Now since only Fantasy, Hydra, and JangBi will likely change between now and 30 days, you could simply keep the current and wait 'til then (just make sure you carefully remember the exploits of August). But... after the "PR removed from front-page" fiasco, the PR needs to act and show that it's still alive and kicking. A month off right now is not good for its image, imo. Now my 10 players isn't the 10 it has to be, but I don't think it's too chaotic considering these guys all made names for themselves in the proleague finals and/or STXMC and/or OSL Ro8. It's simply what happened. | ||
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
But PR is supposed to be a representation of the state of Broodwar right now. And you're going to take a month in which almost no games are played and say that's an accurate representation of the state of Broodwar? Really, you want to talk about the image of the ranking when you're willing to put up a ranking that lacks credibility? That won't revive the PR; that will bury it! We're not going to match the SC2 side in activity or favorability. The admins have all but said "fuck you" to BW. But we can surpass SC2 in quality. The SC2 forum is drowning in idiots and newbs who don't even know that there is such a thing as the TL Commandments. So long as we have quality there is a point to sticking around. If we're going to release a ranking with such a small data set, then the only option is to reduce the emphasis on this past month's games in order to capture the bigger picture. Comparing, for example, Zero with By.Sun, Zero is better in every category. Statistics, league tournament advancement, skill, impact he has made on BW. Carrying a team on his fucking back. Sun has played... a couple nice games when his team sent him out? And the only reason he even played this month is that his team was seeded, which to be brutally honest had nothing to do with his performance. He's a developing talent, surely, but trying to argue someone who barely makes a spot in the PL line-up goes above the player who was #2 on the last PR and has not lost a match since then (even if he hasn't played -- most players haven't played either because it's off-season right now) is laughable. A trash ranking might as well not even exist. There is no point to trash. Not when we have ELO, which is semi-reliable. If there's no quality left in BW then why stay? | ||
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Crisium
United States1618 Posts
 I don't think telling the community that By.Sun made a bigger splash and impressed people more than ZerO in August is "no quality left in Broodwar". I think it's fact.About ZerO: ZerO's current superior standing (which you are correct in) is nicely reflected in Kespa and ELO where he is, rightfully so, many, many, miles ahead of By.Sun. Like, light-years ahead of him. Let the PR be something different! Are you not a believer of my time capsule theory? Look back from the future on August, and be reminded that By.Sun did something (imo, something more important than only 8 of his peers). ZerO did absolutely nothing. Looking back at the September Kespa rank will tell you ZerO is one of the top 5 players. Let the PR be something different. Otherwise, let's just end it. "I'd be happier if we play copypasta with the KeSPA ranking". That's heresy. I always liked the balance between ELO, Kespa, and PR in determine how good players are at any given time. Let ELO and Kespa inform the fanbase that ZerO is indeed a top tier player right now. Let PR tell you that By.Sun made a bigger impact in August. Because he did. By.Sun affected the Broodwar scene in August infinitely more than ZerO. Hell yeah he should be ranked higher. Let the PR be a monthly who did what list. And before someone reacts with "just compile a win/loss statistics" I am not advocating that (or else 1-0 Stats, Bisu, Hoejja would be below 5-0 By.Sun). But if the PR isn't gonna be more focused on one-month than Kespa... then let's just end it now. tl;dr: Someone asks "Who are the 10 best players in Broodwar right now?" you point them to Kespa and ELO where ZerO is ma bonjwa incarnate. PR only partially answers that question. PR also answers "Who kicked ass and took names this past month?" or "Who has been hot recently (roughly 30 days)". And if you're gonna tell me ZerO kicked more ass than By.Sun in the past 30-odd days, then I'm gonna kick your ass.  | ||
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Trias
Netherlands53 Posts
On August 30 2011 14:44 Crisium wrote: ZerO did absolutely nothing. ZerO played 2 games this month:-He won his game against sHy and then lost his game against KiLLeR in the STX masters Stars vs. Oz match.So he did not do nothing. | ||
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Crisium
United States1618 Posts
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Trias
Netherlands53 Posts
CBNC: Stats, HoeJJa | ||
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Trias
Netherlands53 Posts
On August 30 2011 15:41 Crisium wrote: Aye, that be technically true. But the current PR was created on August 11th and results are only counted once. Thus the next PR will not have any games for ZerO. Dont make up arbitrary rules. Anyway, with the number of games played this month it would be stupid to artificially handicap the ranking even more by not counting the early august games. | ||
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