Fantasy There are always trolls in any month of Power Rank writing. Fantasy is this month's king troll, what with the out-of-nowhere "I'm going to return to form and win in Starleagues" mentality. Seriously, the dude goes on a 6-game loss streak in Proleague during June but then decides to 3-0 his OSL group and 2-0 his MST group.
HoeJJa For the past few months, HoeJJa has suddenly decided to go into beast mode. Yes, after getting knocked out of his MST group he's in neither individual league. However, he has been instrumental in KT's success in making it to the SPL Grand Final, winning five of his seven matches. It's interesting to say this, but a good deal of KT's chance at gold right now depends on HoeJJa winning his match in the final.
JangBi If JangBi hadn't lost all three of his playoff matches [ZerO and Soulkey are good, but still], he'd have a Power Rank spot. Still, he gets kudos for stomping BaBy and Calm in the tiebreakers and 2-0ing his MST group. Looking forward to some more JangBang in the individual leagues soon.
Modesty I thought it was weird that Modesty made it to an OSL semifinal. I still think it's weird now, when he's advanced to another OSL quarterfinal [over the corpse of Jaedong] and made it to the MSL main as well. He also won a game in the Day 2 playoffs match against KT, where STX 4-0'd. Still, none of his games have been impressive or even fun to watch.
Stats After a period of dominance, Stats fell asleep. He failed out of both MSL and OSL prelims, and hadn't been holding up that well in Proleague. Then comes playoffs. After getting trounced in all three of his games against STX, Stats decided it was time to wake up. In the past few weeks, Stats has been pretty instrumental to KT's success, winning the five games he played against Stars and CJ. In particular, his games against ZerO and Hydra showcased some high-level PvZ. Currently, I just expect pretty much all non-Bisu Protoss to roll over and die, since Zerg players keep just hydra-busting them to death. Stats is one of my few hopes for PvZ, though since he's not in either individual league I'll have to wait.
The Proleague Grand Final should be interesting. Win or lose, I expect Stats to create a splash.
Shoutouts
Hyuk Hyuk, like Fantasy, is also a troll. Might be team-related. Because SKT is in the finals, he had no Proleague games to play. However, Hyuk did manage to 2-1 his ODT group, 2-1 his MST group, and 2-1 his OSL Round of 16 group to advance to the quarterfinals. Ironically, he'll be playing fellow troll Fantasy there. Basically, Hyuk is a not-so-good player that has managed to advance in both leagues... just like last season. What?
hyvaa Players with names starting with "hy-" tend to all-kill in STX Masters'. hyvaa all-killed KHAN, but I wonder how many teams actually really care about STXMC. Just thought this was kind of funny. hyvaa's been playing better as of late, though still nothing that impressive.
Perfective Perfective decided to go from losing almost every Proleague match [why did I put you on my FPL team, seriously?] to winning every one of his post-season games, with three of them being closing sets as well. His play may not be that good or inspiring to watch, but the results have mattered.
Really Really is another progamer to retire, and he won't be the last. Still, I am saddened to see him go. Ever since the dissolution of eSTRO, he hasn't been the same. Even if you don't really like Really, take a look at this old Proleague writeup.
One more thing--as you all know this current Power Rank writeup was delayed by almost two weeks. My question now is this: would you prefer to have one again at the end of August or wait till the end of September? Alternatively, September can be skipped and incorporated into October.
Personally, with school starting soon, among other things, I would rather wait the extra month (skip September). This is both me being lazy as well as there not being many games of Starcraft in the month of September since MSL is on hold till group selection some time in October. Once again, I'll leave it up to a poll.
Poll: PR for the next few months:
Write one every month (124)
53%
Combine August and September, do October as usual (105)
45%
Write August, combine September and October (6)
3%
235 total votes
Your vote: PR for the next few months:
(Vote): Write one every month (Vote): Combine August and September, do October as usual (Vote): Write August, combine September and October
Yay Killer is up there ^.^ I hope that Jaedong comes back with a vengeance though >.> Hyuk! Why do you troll me so?
Also regarding the poll, I truly don't mind having the 3 months merge. Much less problematic for you as you have school and it gives you much more information to see and we should (theoretically) get a very descriptive Power Rank.
So I'll vote for the 2 months combined and October alone. Hwaiting Flamewheel!
Bisu the only Protoss on the PR, so many zergs. Slowly Bisu, slowly but surely you'll get to number one. I also don't really think Bogus is invisible/overshadowed either, he's shot up in terms of recognition very quickly with the other two big names stumbling. Hopefully he moves up too
You must have had a lot of Vod marathons flamewheel haha
On August 12 2011 01:22 disciple wrote: btw I have a bet with Milkis that Jaedong wont win another title ever again (that includes MSL, OSL, PL and WL)
On August 12 2011 01:22 disciple wrote: btw I have a bet with Milkis that Jaedong wont win another title ever again (that includes MSL, OSL, PL and WL)
...GSL?
(I kid, I kid!)
It's getting really hard to make predictions about future titles. A year ago I would have said you were nuts, but with the apparently declining ZvZ, the inability to translate the ability to beat Flash into an ability to beat Flash in a finals, and so on, I'm starting to worry you might be right. It's a weird day when the farthest advancing OZ player in the OSL is a Zerg... who's not JD.
I'm content with this months power ranks. JD and Killer could have been switched and I don't think many would argue. I do expect a #1 Bisu power rank next month however. I feel like Bisu is like Yellow when it comes to power rank. He's always #3.
The order was pretty good. I thought a few of the comments could have been better. Especially for our top 5 I felt like you wrote a lot of words without saying much (too much repetition of "I wish the SPL finals would have happened" type sentiments, and too many cases of saying "X and Y are similar cases" when they really are not). The remarks seemed a bit wishy-washy where I would have preferred conviction.
Also, Soo should have been mentioned in CBNC. He was PR'd the month before back when everything we knew about him amounted to "so, he can play ZvP... and?" Now, okay, he hasn't proved himself to be really "strong" at ZvT or anything, but he's racked up some wins against decent players, pushing him through OSL 2-1 and MST 2-0, and I, for one, would not have expected him to survive that OSL group.
I agree with your top 6 placements 100%. Yay, Killer! 7-10 are also not bad choices. But...
I know you are subjective and therefore cannot be "wrong", but you made a real mistake leaving out Soo. He was ranked PR #7 last month. He goes 2-1 in OSL Ro16, advancing, and goes 2-0 in MST, advancing. That's 4-1 for the month. And you demote him out of the top 10, and not even CBNC worthy? His wins were mostly over Terran too, showing that he is not just a ZvP machine. What? I'll walk you through it again:
Soo's July PR #7 Soo's July Record 4-1, advancing in two leagues Soo is demoted out of the PR, and out of the CBNC
Now as I said I understand it is subjective, but did his games really leave you unimpressed? Since he has the results, you must have seen something in his playstyle that disgusted you to punish him on the PR so hard after such a good month. I'd like your thoughts.
In any case i dont think he can change the Power Rank, but maybe edit in a shout-out for SoO?
Im sad that Bisu doesnt have a chance to make number 1 but its true that he didnt have the chance to prove himself this month, and thus didnt have a lot to show for. But Zero above him still made me slightly depressed T_T
Edit: If not for Bisu n Flash, i was ready to call Swarm Season v2.0 T_T.. Gosh ZvP nowadays =/
Oh yeah, he can't change it, I wouldn't want that. But he should get some type of CBNC or shout-out for continuing to perform well and advance in leagues for yet another month. Unless Flamewheel was honestly unimpressed with his play, of course.
I think he just forgot. I know that it slipped my mind until I read Hyuk in the shout-out and thought to myself that there was an SKT zerg who played better.
Yeah, I forgot soO completely. To be honest because of limited time I only watched one of his games--the one against TurN where it was more TurN failing with the 5rax push. When I get the chance later tonight I will go take a closer look at his games and edit him in where he seems appropriate.
All Power Ranks are editable. When I received the position, I actually went through and corrected some of the old tags, since tags such as
<b></b> and <i></i>
and the likes no longer showed properly in some of the older PRs (though apparently I can use them now or something).
I definitely believe Jaedong has what it takes to win another title and be the top zerg again.... It'll just be more difficult with so many zergs in the individual leagues and his ZvZ slumping so hard :/ Still.... We must believe!
Other than that power rank makes me warm and fussy with even stats getting CBNC
And Killer should have been above Jaedong, no reason for him to be below him other than "Jaedong is Jaedong" but killer is a fucking killer, and him doing the "jump to 4th spot and may stay may disappear next month ala stats / shine " seemed like the best thing to do
Aside from the game against Flash, I forgot about him as well. I'll take a look.
Mehhh not that big of a fan of Leta this time around--he just hasn't played enough. The games against CH and Flash were good, but it just comes down to he hasn't played enough. Before the two playoff matches we didn't see him for a month because he didn't make OSL.
A little off topic, but what ever happened to FrOzean. He hasn't played since march. Is he just terrible now? Also is Pusan coaching now or just never going to play again in the PL?
On August 12 2011 07:56 BisuDagger wrote: A little off topic, but what ever happened to FrOzean. He hasn't played since march. Is he just terrible now? Also is Pusan coaching now or just never going to play again in the PL?
I wouldn't put Leta in the 10. He gets points for waving the "I beat Flash" card but I'm not sold.
I can agree with the lack of Fantasy, even if I would have given him a low rank myself. He will probably walk though Hyuk in the Ro8 (again), but his long term power still is uncertain and it's better to wait for how he does in the SPL finals before giving him a spot.
Want to be in next month's power rank? You can too! Unless you play Protoss
Very depressing for the sons of Aiur this month. Is it the maps recently, a lack of innovation on the part of Korean protosses, or just that everyone else has figured protoss out?
Cool that Flash stays on top despite the wrist. He is so awesome. I feel the critique Jaedong is getting is exagerated: he only lost rock-paper-scissor zvzs (if he had played one game as bad as zeros game vs killer people would have said he should retire). I know Soo has a very good record but I think he sucks, so I would have liked to have him lower. Too many bad zergs on the rank and too few protoss. (Not Flamewheels fault though )
So, why do some progamers get a clan tag, and others don't? I ask this because Killer's name looks a bit ridiculous. Why not mensol for Zero, or shield for bisu? n.die for Jaedong, or by for Flash?
Soo and Soulkey have their tags because there is another Soo and another Soulkey, so that makes perfect sense. But why Killer (or Light for that matter?).
On August 12 2011 12:28 Crisium wrote: So, why do some progamers get a clan tag, and others don't? I ask this because Killer's name looks a bit ridiculous. Why not mensol for Zero, or shield for bisu? n.die for Jaedong, or by for Flash?
Soo and Soulkey have their tags because there is another Soo and another Soulkey, so that makes perfect sense. But why Killer (or Light for that matter?).
Names are manually added then linked. I've simply been too lazy to replace Ever)Z(Killer with just Killer, and the same goes for Light.
Hydra should be higher then both Bisu and Zero . He lost a game against Stats and thats it . He is doing quite well in the OSL geting out of a difficult group .
On August 12 2011 15:06 raga4ka wrote: Hydra should be higher then both Bisu and Zero . He lost a game against Stats and thats it . He is doing quite well in the OSL geting out of a difficult group .
He lost a game when it matters, against an opponent that he should have won. This is only rectified in part (small one) by his victory against a much inferior opponent in a very underwhelming game the next day (Tempest). For the record, his team lost anw, and his loss the first day _could_ have turned the tide around if it was a win instead. And he lost to Flash in OSL as well (not just Stats in SPL Playoffs).
Zero performed better this month (more games, stronger opponent, overall better performance). Bisu is undefeated this month (yes i know his opponents mostly suck, outside of Baby, whose vP is a suspect anw), and has been performing relatively better than Hydra all season (i am aware that he doesnt do well in Indiv league, OSL is entirely his fault and has been cursed for an eternity by people for it, MSL group was... just unfortunate).
So i think that Hydra is not as "powerful" as them at the moment, and it seems Flamewheel agrees
PS: Stork's form being the way it is right now, that OSL group wasnt difficult. The only opponent that he wasnt s'posed to win, he lost to. No surprise there.
On August 12 2011 15:06 raga4ka wrote: Hydra should be higher then both Bisu and Zero . He lost a game against Stats and thats it . He is doing quite well in the OSL geting out of a difficult group .
Don't forget that he also lost to Flash, so it's not "that's it." Of course we don't often think of a loss to Flash the same way as we do other losses, but when we compare how thoroughly Hydra was dominated to the awesome play Zero demonstrated to overcome Flash it is abundantly clear who the better ZvTer is. And regarding the game vs Stats... have you watched the game? Because it was awful. Hydra is normally a consistently dominant ZvPer with strong midgame timings, but every now and again he drops the ball (see also his game against Kal from a couple months back). It's like his timing sense was just off: he was 30 seconds too slow. Both games.
Mechanically Hydra is stronger than Zero and Hydra is a bit more well-rounded, but he doesn't stand out as a better player and he's not "hotter" either, as Zero totally made up for dropping from OGN prelims (on the previous ranking) with his playoffs performance.
The argument about Hydra vs Bisu really comes down to the fact that Bisu had an easy month free ride but showed no flaws whereas Hydra had a fairly difficult month (even if few games were played he had the hardest OSL group) but showed flaws. I don't want to get caught any deeper in that one.
On August 12 2011 12:01 Elroi wrote: Cool that Flash stays on top despite the wrist. He is so awesome. I feel the critique Jaedong is getting is exagerated: he only lost rock-paper-scissor zvzs (if he had played one game as bad as zeros game vs killer people would have said he should retire). I know Soo has a very good record but I think he sucks, so I would have liked to have him lower. Too many bad zergs on the rank and too few protoss. (Not Flamewheels fault though )
Thanks for the ranking
JD is actually getting a lot of benefit of the doubt right now. This ZvZ problem has been going on for a while, with only 4 wins in his last 12 games. You can always look at games and try to parse them and it's hard to identify anything wrong with what JD is doing, but at this point the sample size is large enough that we can clearly see this isn't the usual 75-80% Zerg killer that we're used to. As I remarked in the old thread, although Jaedong is very good at JvZ, it seems that he is absolutely awful at ZvZ.
Oh I'm so much of a fanboy that it hurts....can't believe how bad JD is doing these days :-( miss the JvX times, but he's only like your regular Z now....really hope he can pull some magic
i would like you to elaborate more on jaedongs zerg vs terran , it is as good as it has ever been and that might be subject to him practicing verses flash every now and again.
Now i am going to make a defense for jaedongs zerg vs zerg however not a good one as results
matter the most.He is getting a little older and might be slowing down a bit since zvz is such a
split second decision making game , the tiniest margins of speed can matter in zvz so i would say
his ability to multitask/micro are a little bit torn.Jaedong can get this back though, he is not that
old and with some good rest/practice routine he can easily regain his zvz.Also let me elaborate
more on what i mean by tiniest margines, i literally mean a millisecond, one millisecond. I will let
that sink in for a moment.Jaedongs ability far exceeded everyone else in his multitasking/raw
ability/macro everything was better but in zvz it is a bit different. When i play a zerg vs zerg
matchup i know that in some cases it is a coinflip but it can also be a straight forward matchup.
When you put into perspective his zvt it becomes a little more clear why jaedongs zvz is suffering.
He is so used to dominating in a matchup that when, he isn't anymore, he cannot adjust, so he
does riskier things(ie triple 12 hatch vs soulkey -_-) instead of just get back the skill he had and
relying on his ability to jsut out think and outmultitask his opponent.In his zerg vs terran, what
does jaedong do? He literally dominates with per latent decision making and macro.
Micro definitely plays a part, but not something we haven't seen from jaedong before.
I think jaedong is just lacking confidence more then any other aspect of his game even if his age
is lessening his micro in zvz a bit.Jaedong i believe has demonstrated that he can be a beast at
the top of his game and good when he isn't at the top of his game.Jaedong just needs to realize
that its okay to be risky but not so incredibly risky that you lose to a 9 pool 3 straight times by
going 12 hatch.I want to see jaedong fall out of glory like a legend , fighting with every ounce of
confidence and ability he has until he cannot win anymore with it.This is just his zvz though and i
doubt we will see his zvt/zvp fall out of glory for a very long time.
now jaedongs zerg vs protoss...... It is good but we cannot say anything at this point since we have not seen his zvp in stellar fashion but its not bad enough to say jaedong has lost his edge in the matchup.
oh man i think killer came onto the the scene when jaedong was near his peak and i remember how hard oz fans face palmed when he kept getting sent out for ace matches instead of jaedong, never thought i'd see the day where he'd almost over take his mentor on the power rank.
I don't think JD's split second decision making is the problem. This problem in ZvZ is incredibly recent. It wasn't until earlier this year that anybody had any kind of doubts about JvZ and it wasn't until JD vs Zero that people started to develop serious reservations. Most people thought JD would just bounce back from his loss to Hydra and it first it seemed like he did.
I have to say that I still believe that soO's ZvT is terribad (and that soO has no "power" whatsoever) and I'll further develop my point when I'm back home (sunday)
No Zerg yet has lost the KeSPA throne and retaken it yet, and with Jaedong out of OSL and Hydra still in it that task has become even more arduous.
That's true for all but H.O.T Forever, who was #1 Zerg for 3 months on the KeSPA rank but only 2 consecutively, and thus the exception to the rule.
Actually TaewoO was a random player (or at least he didn't play Zerg exclusively), so H.O.T was the #1 Zerg consecutively too.
He wasn't random, but he did play T and Z (with a bit of P). However, KeSPA's official records recognize his Z reign as #1 Zerg for 3 months. Since KeSPA is the head authority of the KeSPA rank and they state that H.O.T's rule was not consecutive, that's good enough for me.
On August 13 2011 17:07 InFdude wrote: Well I am enraged at how things have gone.I can't beleave how 1 badly designed match up has cost Jaedong so many titles.And now all these other amaturish, compared to Jaedongs ZvT, zergs will just feed Flash another title without any resistance.
My last hope for a good OSL is Jangbi.After that i won't even waste my time watching another boring roflstomp.
Jaedong owes so much of his career to ZvZ. It may have been the best matchup anybody's ever had. (Seriously, what compares? oov vs. Z? Flash vs. T? Even they didn't have 80%+ sustained for as long as Jaedong did.) It used to be an autowin, and a free ride into the next round of the tournament.
You can't blame all of JD's recent problems on ZvZ without acknowledging how much of an advantage it has been for most of his career.
On August 13 2011 17:07 InFdude wrote: Well I am enraged at how things have gone.I can't beleave how 1 badly designed match up has cost Jaedong so many titles.And now all these other amaturish, compared to Jaedongs ZvT, zergs will just feed Flash another title without any resistance.
My last hope for a good OSL is Jangbi.After that i won't even waste my time watching another boring roflstomp.
Jaedong owes so much of his career to ZvZ. It may have been the best matchup anybody's ever had. (Seriously, what compares? oov vs. Z? Flash vs. T? Even they didn't have 80%+ sustained for as long as Jaedong did.) It used to be an autowin, and a free ride into the next round of the tournament.
You can't blame all of JD's recent problems on ZvZ without acknowledging how much of an advantage it has been for most of his career.
The mu is still the hardest (and least fair) in the game I think - Stork said so in an interview - regardless of how dominant Jaedong once was in it. It's not like he owes something to the nature of the mu, he was just so much better than all the other zergs ever had been.
@InFdude: You'll just have to learn to enjoy how freaking good Flash is, even if it looks easy for him that doesn't mean that it isn't very impressive.
No Zerg yet has lost the KeSPA throne and retaken it yet, and with Jaedong out of OSL and Hydra still in it that task has become even more arduous.
That's true for all but H.O.T Forever, who was #1 Zerg for 3 months on the KeSPA rank but only 2 consecutively, and thus the exception to the rule.
Actually TaewoO was a random player (or at least he didn't play Zerg exclusively), so H.O.T was the #1 Zerg consecutively too.
He wasn't random, but he did play T and Z (with a bit of P). However, KeSPA's official records recognize his Z reign as #1 Zerg for 3 months. Since KeSPA is the head authority of the KeSPA rank and they state that H.O.T's rule was not consecutive, that's good enough for me.
Back then most players would use random whenever the map was unsuitable for their main race and would sometimes use random (or race pick) when they had a concern over how a particular match might play out. If you look through records carefully you'll see that other top names of their races did this as well. In fact I remember at one point looking on pgr21.com and seeing that TheMarine was one of the top 10 rated Protoss players ever. This was like in 2002. Even Boxer would occasionally play races other than Terran (see his Game-Q series with IntoTheRain).
Eventually KeSPA forced certain rules about race selection. In the old days you would just show up and pick whatever race you wanted but now you cannot do that anymore -- your opponent is given a chance to prepare knowing what race you will come out as.
No Zerg yet has lost the KeSPA throne and retaken it yet, and with Jaedong out of OSL and Hydra still in it that task has become even more arduous.
That's true for all but H.O.T Forever, who was #1 Zerg for 3 months on the KeSPA rank but only 2 consecutively, and thus the exception to the rule.
Actually TaewoO was a random player (or at least he didn't play Zerg exclusively), so H.O.T was the #1 Zerg consecutively too.
He wasn't random, but he did play T and Z (with a bit of P). However, KeSPA's official records recognize his Z reign as #1 Zerg for 3 months. Since KeSPA is the head authority of the KeSPA rank and they state that H.O.T's rule was not consecutive, that's good enough for me.
Back then most players would use random whenever the map was unsuitable for their main race and would sometimes use random (or race pick) when they had a concern over how a particular match might play out. If you look through records carefully you'll see that other top names of their races did this as well. In fact I remember at one point looking on pgr21.com and seeing that TheMarine was one of the top 10 rated Protoss players ever. This was like in 2002. Even Boxer would occasionally play races other than Terran (see his Game-Q series with IntoTheRain).
Eventually KeSPA forced certain rules about race selection. In the old days you would just show up and pick whatever race you wanted but now you cannot do that anymore -- your opponent is given a chance to prepare knowing what race you will come out as.
I'm aware of that, I even reported TLPD errors of missing player races (for randoms/race-switchers) a few weeks ago when I ran my own TLPD scripts (here). I wasn't disputing multiple races being used.
If you check the nested discussion you quoted you'll see we were discussing whether or not H.O.T's reign was consecutive, and according to KeSPA's records it was not. Not sure what point you're trying to make.
No Zerg yet has lost the KeSPA throne and retaken it yet, and with Jaedong out of OSL and Hydra still in it that task has become even more arduous.
That's true for all but H.O.T Forever, who was #1 Zerg for 3 months on the KeSPA rank but only 2 consecutively, and thus the exception to the rule.
Actually TaewoO was a random player (or at least he didn't play Zerg exclusively), so H.O.T was the #1 Zerg consecutively too.
He wasn't random, but he did play T and Z (with a bit of P). However, KeSPA's official records recognize his Z reign as #1 Zerg for 3 months. Since KeSPA is the head authority of the KeSPA rank and they state that H.O.T's rule was not consecutive, that's good enough for me.
Back then most players would use random whenever the map was unsuitable for their main race and would sometimes use random (or race pick) when they had a concern over how a particular match might play out. If you look through records carefully you'll see that other top names of their races did this as well. In fact I remember at one point looking on pgr21.com and seeing that TheMarine was one of the top 10 rated Protoss players ever. This was like in 2002. Even Boxer would occasionally play races other than Terran (see his Game-Q series with IntoTheRain).
Eventually KeSPA forced certain rules about race selection. In the old days you would just show up and pick whatever race you wanted but now you cannot do that anymore -- your opponent is given a chance to prepare knowing what race you will come out as.
I'm aware of that, I even reported TLPD errors of missing player races (for randoms/race-switchers) a few weeks ago when I ran my own TLPD scripts (here). I wasn't disputing multiple races being used.
If you check the nested discussion you quoted you'll see we were discussing whether or not H.O.T's reign was consecutive, and according to KeSPA's records it was not. Not sure what point you're trying to make.
Sorry, there seems to be a misunderstanding here. I was not trying to correct you; I was adding to your point.
I think Fantasy should be at least 8. He's better than Light and Soulkey, and is in a good standing in both individual leagues. But, well I can wait another month and see him much higher, no problem.
On August 13 2011 23:52 Svennedude wrote: only one toss in the power ranking :D
And it's Bisu lol. Protoss has been a pretty dead race now.
I'm not surprised Terran is #1. Zerg has always been #2 (Yellow, Jaedong)
Terran > Zerg > Protoss. That's how the scene has been for the last 10 years, and I think it will remain this way until the BW scene dies (if it dies)
I think it's funny you decide to post this when there are 3 terran and 6 zerg on the PR. Historically I'ld say yes T>all but since Savior, to me, it seems like T=Z>P.
On August 13 2011 23:52 Svennedude wrote: only one toss in the power ranking :D
And it's Bisu lol. Protoss has been a pretty dead race now.
I'm not surprised Terran is #1. Zerg has always been #2 (Yellow, Jaedong)
Terran > Zerg > Protoss. That's how the scene has been for the last 10 years, and I think it will remain this way until the BW scene dies (if it dies)
I think it's funny you decide to post this when there are 3 terran and 6 zerg on the PR. Historically I'ld say yes T>all but since Savior, to me, it seems like T=Z>P.
It's amazing how one person can change the entire perception of racial balance in a video game isn't it? Were it not for Flash we'd be making jokes about watching ZergCraft. Since 2007, besides Flash we've had 1 terran OSL winner and 2 MSL winners. In the post-Savior era only the Arena MSL (won by forgg) and Bigfile MSL (won by Flash) were terran dominated.
On August 13 2011 23:52 Svennedude wrote: only one toss in the power ranking :D
And it's Bisu lol. Protoss has been a pretty dead race now.
I'm not surprised Terran is #1. Zerg has always been #2 (Yellow, Jaedong)
Terran > Zerg > Protoss. That's how the scene has been for the last 10 years, and I think it will remain this way until the BW scene dies (if it dies)
I think it's funny you decide to post this when there are 3 terran and 6 zerg on the PR. Historically I'ld say yes T>all but since Savior, to me, it seems like T=Z>P.
It's amazing how one person can change the entire perception of racial balance in a video game isn't it? Were it not for Flash we'd be making jokes about watching ZergCraft. Since 2007, besides Flash we've had 1 terran OSL winner and 2 MSL winners. In the post-Savior era only the Arena MSL (won by forgg) and Bigfile MSL (won by Flash) were terran dominated.
You could make a point that flash has knocked Leta and Fantasy out some times =D And he knocked out free and kal out of like 5 semi finals last year, was sorta riddicolous
I think it's funny you decide to post this when there are 3 terran and 6 zerg on the PR. Historically I'ld say yes T>all but since Savior, to me, it seems like T=Z>P.
i do not agree, historically of course T owns all, but nowadays, if flash werent a progamer, we would see zerg sweeping out everything. look at jaedong, he lost three finals against flash , if it were for example another terran(or player), JD would had 8 leagues by now. and zero would have own a league as well, and so on for other swarm integrants, i mean look at recent leagues, its a zergfest all the way. for me sc is like this nowdays: Flash>ALL Z>T=P
On August 15 2011 07:56 GhostOwl wrote: If we use the "If there wasn't Flash" argument, we would also have to use "If there wasn't Jaedong" argument as well or else it's not right.
My argument was about the dominance of the scene, meaning the top of the ladder. Counting the #8 or #9 of the PR isn't really to the point.
Take out Jaedong of the equation and you will see, from 2008 to now, there are more zerg champions than any of the other races (not counting repetition of the same player.)
On August 15 2011 07:56 GhostOwl wrote: If we use the "If there wasn't Flash" argument, we would also have to use "If there wasn't Jaedong" argument as well or else it's not right.
My argument was about the dominance of the scene, meaning the top of the ladder. Counting the #8 or #9 of the PR isn't really to the point.
god there are so many things wrong about counting the top of the scene as 2, 3 or 5 players. When doing this some statistical anomalies such as Flash and Bisu can push you to a blatantly wrong conclusion such as the scene is terran dominated right now, which is obviously false considering how many zerg players go deep in the starleagues. Using such a small sample size also fails to include the many protoss whom are regular proleague contributor and the many protoss players with a lot of potential going into next season.
On August 15 2011 07:56 GhostOwl wrote: If we use the "If there wasn't Flash" argument, we would also have to use "If there wasn't Jaedong" argument as well or else it's not right.
My argument was about the dominance of the scene, meaning the top of the ladder. Counting the #8 or #9 of the PR isn't really to the point.
Flash has won as many titles in the past year and a half as Jaedong has in his entire career. He grossly changes the curve on racial success more than any progamer ever.
If you take out Flash and Jaedong, Zerg is still far and above everyone else, anyhow.
If you want to have some more unbiased numbers about race dominance in broodwar, look at the statistics for the current season of SPL.
If you look at the overall win rates, you find: TvZ: 106-93 (53.3%) ZvP: 130-114 (53.3%) PvT: 126-98 (56.3%) Which enforces the classic T>Z>P>T paradigm of broodwar.
If you look at total games played, you find: Zerg : 549 Protoss : 520 Terran: 486
In terms of total games played the zergs do dominate. This basically indicates that the coaches think that their zerg players (on average) have the best chance of winning.
I'm not sure that it is valid to argue like this but I think that ff you take out Flash, other terrans that he has eliminated would probably have won and beat the zergs in the finals since terran historically beats zergs on the highest level: when protoss is not even in the competition in the sls anymore the best terran should have a very good shot at winning. Well, you would probably have to count Jaedong out too since he would have been the favorite against any non flash terran anyway.
On August 15 2011 16:54 Mortality wrote: Pull out Flash AND Jaedong and I'd say it's Z > T > P right now. T actually looks pretty deep, but Z's top arsenal is just too strong.
On August 15 2011 19:56 Elroi wrote: I'm not sure that it is valid to argue like this but I think that ff you take out Flash, other terrans that he has eliminated would probably have won and beat the zergs in the finals since terran historically beats zergs on the highest level: when protoss is not even in the competition in the sls anymore the best terran should have a very good shot at winning. Well, you would probably have to count Jaedong out too since he would have been the favorite against any non flash terran anyway.
The only starleague worthy terran Flash has really knocked out in any of his runs was Fantasy in Bigfile, and frankly I wouldn't have taken Fantasy over Jaedong in that situation (As Jaedong had just eliminated Light and ALMOST beat Flash).
On August 15 2011 19:14 Trias wrote: If you want to have some more unbiased numbers about race dominance in broodwar, look at the statistics for the current season of SPL.
If you look at the overall win rates, you find: TvZ: 106-93 (53.3%) ZvP: 130-114 (53.3%) PvT: 126-98 (56.3%) Which enforces the classic T>Z>P>T paradigm of broodwar.
If you look at total games played, you find: Zerg : 549 Protoss : 520 Terran: 486
In terms of total games played the zergs do dominate. This basically indicates that the coaches think that their zerg players (on average) have the best chance of winning.
The problem with taking SPL results as definitive proof of racial balance is that SPL results and individual leagues do not always coincide. Certain players like Movie, Bisu and Horang2 really help Protoss stats in SPL but do nothing for Protoss in individual league. In fact, Bisu alters the SPL statistics more than anybody but it's been 2 years since he's made a deep Starleague run.
Zerg has been pretty dominant lately, but it's more infusing new blood rather than resurgence of veterans. Effort retired. JD isn't doing as dominating as he's used to. Luxury got boned. Then we have hydra breaking out, soulkey going from b-team to one of the main players, killer reaching new heights, etc. etc.
Terran on the other hand, counts on the resurgence of players. Of the decent to top terran players-- Light, Sea, Flash, Bogus, Fantasy, Baby, Leta, Mind, FBH-- pretty much only Bogus and Baby would be considered new blood. Neither of which has had a deep individual league run.
Protoss is just flailing around in individual leagues.
There might be a case that zerg's talent pool is deeper and that the players are closer to each other than the other races. But it might have just been the nature of the zerg mechanics (you can be pretty good against 2 races up to lair tech) Either way, some young'uns from Toss and Terran need to start stepping up.
On August 15 2011 19:14 Trias wrote: If you want to have some more unbiased numbers about race dominance in broodwar, look at the statistics for the current season of SPL.
If you look at the overall win rates, you find: TvZ: 106-93 (53.3%) ZvP: 130-114 (53.3%) PvT: 126-98 (56.3%) Which enforces the classic T>Z>P>T paradigm of broodwar.
If you look at total games played, you find: Zerg : 549 Protoss : 520 Terran: 486
In terms of total games played the zergs do dominate. This basically indicates that the coaches think that their zerg players (on average) have the best chance of winning.
The problem with taking SPL results as definitive proof of racial balance is that SPL results and individual leagues do not always coincide. Certain players like Movie, Bisu and Horang2 really help Protoss stats in SPL but do nothing for Protoss in individual league. In fact, Bisu alters the SPL statistics more than anybody but it's been 2 years since he's made a deep Starleague run.
The problem with looking at star leagues stats is that they are heavily influenced by just a few very dominant players. The absense of protoss players in the star leagues mostly tells us that there are no very dominant protoss players around currently.
The SPL fielding numbers, do show a similar picture. There are significantly more zerg players fielded than protoss players. Interestingly enough, there are more protoss players fielded in proleague than terran players.
On August 15 2011 19:14 Trias wrote: If you want to have some more unbiased numbers about race dominance in broodwar, look at the statistics for the current season of SPL.
If you look at the overall win rates, you find: TvZ: 106-93 (53.3%) ZvP: 130-114 (53.3%) PvT: 126-98 (56.3%) Which enforces the classic T>Z>P>T paradigm of broodwar.
If you look at total games played, you find: Zerg : 549 Protoss : 520 Terran: 486
In terms of total games played the zergs do dominate. This basically indicates that the coaches think that their zerg players (on average) have the best chance of winning.
The problem with taking SPL results as definitive proof of racial balance is that SPL results and individual leagues do not always coincide. Certain players like Movie, Bisu and Horang2 really help Protoss stats in SPL but do nothing for Protoss in individual league. In fact, Bisu alters the SPL statistics more than anybody but it's been 2 years since he's made a deep Starleague run.
The problem with looking at star leagues stats is that they are heavily influenced by just a few very dominant players. The absense of protoss players in the star leagues mostly tells us that there are no very dominant protoss players around currently.
The SPL fielding numbers, do show a similar picture. There are significantly more zerg players fielded than protoss players. Interestingly enough, there are more protoss players fielded in proleague than terran players.
Dont have much time so i wont write much. But i personally feel that Proleague stats and Starleague stats tell of different pictures.
Proleague: a low-preparation environment. Players have 2-3 days to practice on a given map against a mostly unknown opponent (they can guess, but often they have to practice for all 3 MUs in SPL)
Starleague: a high-preparation environment. Opponent is determined, and the preparation period is long.
I think maybe Zerg is just the race that favors preparation the most? And Protoss (clearly?) least. Though its difficult to say that T doesnt favor preparation as well as Zerg. Looking at Flash's pure mechanics, while good, it does not warrant his level of dominance, imo. What sets Flash apar from all others seems to be his game-sense and preparation.
On August 15 2011 19:14 Trias wrote: If you want to have some more unbiased numbers about race dominance in broodwar, look at the statistics for the current season of SPL.
If you look at the overall win rates, you find: TvZ: 106-93 (53.3%) ZvP: 130-114 (53.3%) PvT: 126-98 (56.3%) Which enforces the classic T>Z>P>T paradigm of broodwar.
If you look at total games played, you find: Zerg : 549 Protoss : 520 Terran: 486
In terms of total games played the zergs do dominate. This basically indicates that the coaches think that their zerg players (on average) have the best chance of winning.
The problem with taking SPL results as definitive proof of racial balance is that SPL results and individual leagues do not always coincide. Certain players like Movie, Bisu and Horang2 really help Protoss stats in SPL but do nothing for Protoss in individual league. In fact, Bisu alters the SPL statistics more than anybody but it's been 2 years since he's made a deep Starleague run.
The problem with looking at star leagues stats is that they are heavily influenced by just a few very dominant players. The absense of protoss players in the star leagues mostly tells us that there are no very dominant protoss players around currently.
The SPL fielding numbers, do show a similar picture. There are significantly more zerg players fielded than protoss players. Interestingly enough, there are more protoss players fielded in proleague than terran players.
But there is at least one dominant Protoss player (Bisu) and no Terran other than Flash has been consistently dominant anyway. If we start talking about Fantasy, for instance, we should also talk about Stork who similarly had a strong season followed by a slump period.
That Protoss is more often fielded than Terran should not be taken to mean that coaches have more faith in Protoss as a race, as you seem to believe. Nor does it even truly mean that Protoss has a deeper line-up than Terran since SPL cuts-off each team's line-up at a particular point (typically only 4 players are used per team -- if the fifth man is a Terran he won't be used and the fact that the 5th man is a Terran will not be counted towards your statistic). Furthermore, maps should always be taken into account when discussing balance -- and that brings up yet another key difference between SPL and SL: in SPL you can be sent out for a particular map whereas in SL you have no real choice.
To be honest, I think you're goal to try to quantify the current racial balance is misguided -- you're seeking for one definitive statistic that will say everything that needs to be said when no such statistic exists, so instead you are attempting to infer more from a particular piece of data than really is there. For all of its flaws, ELO is a much better starting point for grasping the big picture than SPL data is. Races go through ups and downs influenced by metagame, current maps, etc., that can be either exaggerated or appear negligible depending on the time period you use for collecting statistics. For example, your statistics indicate that the ZvP balance is better than the PvT balance, but in the month of July we've seen Z go 21-9 against P. Earlier in the year the metagame situation was very good for Protoss with a revitalized timing and favorable maps, but now that Zerg has had a chance to adapt the situation has changed. Meanwhile, TvP balance which was looking absolutely horrendous in late May/early June has looked a lot better since then.
On August 16 2011 06:29 Mortality wrote: That Protoss is more often fielded than Terran should not be taken to mean that coaches have more faith in Protoss as a race, as you seem to believe. Nor does it even truly mean that Protoss has a deeper line-up than Terran since SPL cuts-off each team's line-up at a particular point (typically only 4 players are used per team -- if the fifth man is a Terran he won't be used and the fact that the 5th man is a Terran will not be counted towards your statistic). Furthermore, maps should always be taken into account when discussing balance -- and that brings up yet another key difference between SPL and SL: in SPL you can be sent out for a particular map whereas in SL you have no real choice.
Indeed, that protoss is more often fielded in pro league does not mean that the coaches have more faith in Protoss in a race (where did I say that). It does mean that the coaches have more faith in their protoss players though. Typically, a coach will send out the player that he/she deems to have the highest chance of winning.
To be honest, I think you're goal to try to quantify the current racial balance is misguided -- you're seeking for one definitive statistic that will say everything that needs to be said when no such statistic exists, so instead you are attempting to infer more from a particular piece of data than really is there.
Where did you get the idea that that was my intention. You are projecting.
You might have noticed that I in fact introduced two different datums to the discussion, which thus far was mostly focussing the racial dominance debate on star leagues. (Of which the data is problematic, because the best players get to play the most. As a result two or three players can mostly dominate the result. ...enter the whole star leagues without Flash and Jaedong debate above.)
For all of its flaws, ELO is a much better starting point for grasping the big picture than SPL data is. Races go through ups and downs influenced by metagame, current maps, etc., that can be either exaggerated or appear negligible depending on the time period you use for collecting statistics. For example, your statistics indicate that the ZvP balance is better than the PvT balance, but in the month of July we've seen Z go 21-9 against P. Earlier in the year the metagame situation was very good for Protoss with a revitalized timing and favorable maps, but now that Zerg has had a chance to adapt the situation has changed. Meanwhile, TvP balance which was looking absolutely horrendous in late May/early June has looked a lot better since then.
Besides metagame, that is mostly the law of low numbers showing.
On August 15 2011 19:56 Elroi wrote: I'm not sure that it is valid to argue like this but I think that ff you take out Flash, other terrans that he has eliminated would probably have won and beat the zergs in the finals since terran historically beats zergs on the highest level: when protoss is not even in the competition in the sls anymore the best terran should have a very good shot at winning. Well, you would probably have to count Jaedong out too since he would have been the favorite against any non flash terran anyway.
The only starleague worthy terran Flash has really knocked out in any of his runs was Fantasy in Bigfile, and frankly I wouldn't have taken Fantasy over Jaedong in that situation (As Jaedong had just eliminated Light and ALMOST beat Flash).
He did say you would have to count out Jaedong....someone didn't read it completely...
On August 15 2011 19:56 Elroi wrote: I'm not sure that it is valid to argue like this but I think that ff you take out Flash, other terrans that he has eliminated would probably have won and beat the zergs in the finals since terran historically beats zergs on the highest level: when protoss is not even in the competition in the sls anymore the best terran should have a very good shot at winning. Well, you would probably have to count Jaedong out too since he would have been the favorite against any non flash terran anyway.
The only starleague worthy terran Flash has really knocked out in any of his runs was Fantasy in Bigfile, and frankly I wouldn't have taken Fantasy over Jaedong in that situation (As Jaedong had just eliminated Light and ALMOST beat Flash).
He did say you would have to count out Jaedong....someone didn't read it completely...
I was specifically pointing out the one time where Flash knocked out a terran who could win, not the overall jargon of his post. I adressed that zerg would dominate if you took both out in this post, so I didn't feel the need to again.
On August 16 2011 06:29 Mortality wrote: That Protoss is more often fielded than Terran should not be taken to mean that coaches have more faith in Protoss as a race, as you seem to believe. Nor does it even truly mean that Protoss has a deeper line-up than Terran since SPL cuts-off each team's line-up at a particular point (typically only 4 players are used per team -- if the fifth man is a Terran he won't be used and the fact that the 5th man is a Terran will not be counted towards your statistic). Furthermore, maps should always be taken into account when discussing balance -- and that brings up yet another key difference between SPL and SL: in SPL you can be sent out for a particular map whereas in SL you have no real choice.
Indeed, that protoss is more often fielded in pro league does not mean that the coaches have more faith in Protoss in a race (where did I say that). It does mean that the coaches have more faith in their protoss players though. Typically, a coach will send out the player that he/she deems to have the highest chance of winning.
It does not mean coaches have more faith in their Protoss players. It may mean that a coach has a stronger Protoss line-up, or it may mean that a particular coach has more faith in a particular Protoss player than a particular Terran player as the 4th man. Or it may mean that the coach is choosing to utilize a particular Protoss as a sniper. It depends on the circumstances of the team and it depends on the map selection (a point you conveniently ignored).
And here you are talking to me about sample size... the difference is not so substantial as to make the point you seem to want it to make. I question its importance in the conversation at hand.
For all of its flaws, ELO is a much better starting point for grasping the big picture than SPL data is. Races go through ups and downs influenced by metagame, current maps, etc., that can be either exaggerated or appear negligible depending on the time period you use for collecting statistics. For example, your statistics indicate that the ZvP balance is better than the PvT balance, but in the month of July we've seen Z go 21-9 against P. Earlier in the year the metagame situation was very good for Protoss with a revitalized timing and favorable maps, but now that Zerg has had a chance to adapt the situation has changed. Meanwhile, TvP balance which was looking absolutely horrendous in late May/early June has looked a lot better since then.
Besides metagame, that is mostly the law of low numbers showing.
It is not merely the law of low numbers. Watch the games. The revised Protoss timings that were bringing great success earlier in the year are starting to get figured out.
Moreover, something that SL results show that you are completely missing is that Protoss players are overly dependent on a small handful of timings for a small handful of strategies, making them easier to prepare for. There are reasons why Protoss is consistently lagging behind from Ro32 up to champions and they aren't just dumb luck or lack of superstar level players. Although people keep talking about just Flash and Jaedong, there has been only 1 TBLS champion and 2 finalists, the second of whom is Protoss. Stork's SL runs this year have been comparable to JD's in depth -- despite the fact that Zerg is absolutely, positively blowing Protoss out of the water at ALL levels of SL competition.
On August 16 2011 12:41 TwoToneTerran wrote: No...For the entirety of proleague for the past year you've had to field up to 6 players. Regular format is Bo7.
edit- Exclusion to Winner's league where you can only field 4.
On August 16 2011 06:29 Mortality wrote: That Protoss is more often fielded than Terran should not be taken to mean that coaches have more faith in Protoss as a race, as you seem to believe. Nor does it even truly mean that Protoss has a deeper line-up than Terran since SPL cuts-off each team's line-up at a particular point (typically only 4 players are used per team -- if the fifth man is a Terran he won't be used and the fact that the 5th man is a Terran will not be counted towards your statistic). Furthermore, maps should always be taken into account when discussing balance -- and that brings up yet another key difference between SPL and SL: in SPL you can be sent out for a particular map whereas in SL you have no real choice.
Indeed, that protoss is more often fielded in pro league does not mean that the coaches have more faith in Protoss in a race (where did I say that). It does mean that the coaches have more faith in their protoss players though. Typically, a coach will send out the player that he/she deems to have the highest chance of winning.
It does not mean coaches have more faith in their Protoss players. It may mean that a coach has a stronger Protoss line-up, or it may mean that a particular coach has more faith in a particular Protoss player than a particular Terran player as the 4th man. Or it may mean that the coach is choosing to utilize a particular Protoss as a sniper.
That can all be conveniently be summarized as "the coach has more confidence in his protoss players winning the match".
As for your 4th man argument. No comptent coach would systematically arrange his line up such that one of his players that he has the most confidence in regularly does not get to play. (Except maybe if he is trying to spare them, due to a heavy schedule.)
It depends on the circumstances of the team and it depends on the map selection (a point you conveniently ignored).
Since the maps rotate, the map order does not factor in the overall statistics. There obviously may be an effect due to the map pool, but that is ore an issue of why a certain race is dominant at a current period.
And here you are talking to me about sample size... the difference is not so substantial as to make the point you seem to want it to make. I question its importance in the conversation at hand.
Yes there is only a nearly two order of magnitude difference in the sample size. That is clearly not substantial.
Moreover, something that SL results show that you are completely missing is that Protoss players are overly dependent on a small handful of timings for a small handful of strategies, making them easier to prepare for. There are reasons why Protoss is consistently lagging behind from Ro32 up to champions and they aren't just dumb luck or lack of superstar level players. Although people keep talking about just Flash and Jaedong, there has been only 1 TBLS champion and 2 finalists, the second of whom is Protoss. Stork's SL runs this year have been comparable to JD's in depth -- despite the fact that Zerg is absolutely, positively blowing Protoss out of the water at ALL levels of SL competition.
Yes, and that contradicts the conclusions I drew from the pro league data how? Both show that zerg has been dominant over protoss.
On August 16 2011 06:29 Mortality wrote: That Protoss is more often fielded than Terran should not be taken to mean that coaches have more faith in Protoss as a race, as you seem to believe. Nor does it even truly mean that Protoss has a deeper line-up than Terran since SPL cuts-off each team's line-up at a particular point (typically only 4 players are used per team -- if the fifth man is a Terran he won't be used and the fact that the 5th man is a Terran will not be counted towards your statistic). Furthermore, maps should always be taken into account when discussing balance -- and that brings up yet another key difference between SPL and SL: in SPL you can be sent out for a particular map whereas in SL you have no real choice.
Indeed, that protoss is more often fielded in pro league does not mean that the coaches have more faith in Protoss in a race (where did I say that). It does mean that the coaches have more faith in their protoss players though. Typically, a coach will send out the player that he/she deems to have the highest chance of winning.
It does not mean coaches have more faith in their Protoss players. It may mean that a coach has a stronger Protoss line-up, or it may mean that a particular coach has more faith in a particular Protoss player than a particular Terran player as the 4th man. Or it may mean that the coach is choosing to utilize a particular Protoss as a sniper.
That can all be conveniently be summarized as "the coach has more confidence in his protoss players winning the match".
As for your 4th man argument. No comptent coach would systematically arrange his line up such that one of his players that he has the most confidence in regularly does not get to play. (Except maybe if he is trying to spare them, due to a heavy schedule.)
You are not understanding the argument. Let's simplify the situation with a hypothetical: 3 people from your team have to play. You best is T, then P, then P, then T, then T, then T, then T, then T. Who do you send? 1 T, 2 P, of course (barring any issue with maps or concerns over snipers). But that does not mean that the line-up of P's is as good or better even though statistically we are seeing 2/3 of the games played by P.
With regards to the actual data, there are not so many more games being played by P than by T that it means anything other than "racial balance isn't *that* big of a problem (at least in SPL format)." It does not mean coaches have more confidence in Protoss players.
It depends on the circumstances of the team and it depends on the map selection (a point you conveniently ignored).
Since the maps rotate, the map order does not factor in the overall statistics. There obviously may be an effect due to the map pool, but that is ore an issue of why a certain race is dominant at a current period.
You're missing the point completely. If more of the maps are more P favoring than T favoring and you have two players of comparable skill competing for the last spot, one P and one T, you're more likely to play the P player.
And here you are talking to me about sample size... the difference is not so substantial as to make the point you seem to want it to make. I question its importance in the conversation at hand.
Yes there is only a nearly two order of magnitude difference in the sample size. That is clearly not substantial.
No. Because when considering the number of games played by each race, WHAT is producing the data? The PLAYERS themselves. Which is NOT a 3 digit sample.
Moreover, something that SL results show that you are completely missing is that Protoss players are overly dependent on a small handful of timings for a small handful of strategies, making them easier to prepare for. There are reasons why Protoss is consistently lagging behind from Ro32 up to champions and they aren't just dumb luck or lack of superstar level players. Although people keep talking about just Flash and Jaedong, there has been only 1 TBLS champion and 2 finalists, the second of whom is Protoss. Stork's SL runs this year have been comparable to JD's in depth -- despite the fact that Zerg is absolutely, positively blowing Protoss out of the water at ALL levels of SL competition.
Yes, and that contradicts the conclusions I drew from the pro league data how? Both show that zerg has been dominant over protoss.
[/quote]
Really? Over a one year period we've seen Zerg play 29 SPL games more than Protoss. That difference can be accounted for by just a single player.
I don't understand what kind of argument you are trying to make at all. That in SPL the classical balance will be observed over a long enough time period? Of course. That does not address the current situation, nor does it ever seem to reflect the tournament situation. That the difference in number of games played in SPL is an adequate reflection of how coaches view the current racial balance? I'm not a coach but I doubt they would be agreeing with that assessment.
On August 12 2011 01:16 Fionn wrote: Killer is so close to usurping Jaedong in the Power Rank.
If he can win in the Ro8 of the OSL, he might do it...
lol, shitstorm incoming.
Why? It's not that controversial of a statement. Killer has been playing very well lately and is only 1 spot behind Jaedong right now in the PR. JD has been passed up on the PR by other zergs before.
On August 12 2011 01:16 Fionn wrote: Killer is so close to usurping Jaedong in the Power Rank.
If he can win in the Ro8 of the OSL, he might do it...
lol, shitstorm incoming.
Why? It's not that controversial of a statement. Killer has been playing very well lately and is only 1 spot behind Jaedong right now in the PR. JD has been passed up on the PR by other zergs before.
I'm guessing he meant JD fanboys shitstorm once killer passes him
On August 12 2011 01:16 Fionn wrote: Killer is so close to usurping Jaedong in the Power Rank.
If he can win in the Ro8 of the OSL, he might do it...
lol, shitstorm incoming.
Why? It's not that controversial of a statement. Killer has been playing very well lately and is only 1 spot behind Jaedong right now in the PR. JD has been passed up on the PR by other zergs before.
I'm guessing he meant JD fanboys shitstorm once killer passes him
I thought most JD fans liked Killer since they're teammates on Oz.
I always assumed the "more games by Zergs" just meant "there are more good Zergs at the moment".
Off the top of my head, if we're talking about A-class/ace players or better, you have:
Protoss: Bisu, Stork, Jangbi, Movie, Horang2... and results say Jaehoon but his play is still really shaky. No idea what to make of Stats or Kal right now. free's just been bad. Terran: Flash, Bogus, Sea, Light, fantasy I guess, and Leta sort of. Zerg: ZerO, Hydra, Soulkey, Jaedong, Killer, ... Calm I guess, soO atm but not really.
Now this isn't an exhaustive or scientific list, but I feel like the games played match up fairly well with the numbers of pretty good players of each race right now.
Zerg gets a lot better in the mediocre and in the retrospective. Remember, we're looking into the past for how zerg has dominated the game, and they also had Luxury, Yarnc, Great, Kwanro (Hey, MSL Finalists!) -- 3 of those players are no longer with us and great is slumping (similar to how you picked kal and free), but they've knocked out their fair few players in leagues.
For the mediocre, toss in Roro and Shine who are pretty good and beat almost anyone in their own right, and then the "random" zergs who show up out of nowhere, like Shine, to make a ro4 like By.Hero back when and Modesty just this past season. The most random tosses and terrans we've had make "splashes" in individual leagues are Snow for that one series with JD (that seems to have broken him). Maybe Stats and Grape who, like Snow, had the misfortune of running into JD.
Terran doesn't have ANYONE like that. Everyone you see making it even slightly deep into leagues are established names from 2009 and earlier. Bogus is the closest thing and he can't cut it in individual leagues.
The fact is, excluding Flash, Zerg have absolutely dominated Individual Leagues from 2009-2011, and this is not up for debate. Even excluding Jaedong gives you the same results. What is debatable to you is how much individual leagues mean to you on the current state of the pro scene.
For me, it means a lot. Same with the SPL playoffs where ZvP artists like ZerO and Soulkey resort to Hydra breaks to win. The shit just got serious, so they play to win, and Hydra busts simply show how much better Z is than P. That is very, very telling. I'm not sure how you could watch the playoffs and not notice Z>P dominance.
On August 19 2011 01:03 Crisium wrote: The fact is, excluding Flash, Zerg have absolutely dominated Individual Leagues from 2009-2011, and this is not up for debate. Even excluding Jaedong gives you the same results. What is debatable to you is how much individual leagues mean to you on the current state of the pro scene.
For me, it means a lot. Same with the SPL playoffs where ZvP artists like ZerO and Soulkey resort to Hydra breaks to win. The shit just got serious, so they play to win, and Hydra busts simply show how much better Z is than P. That is very, very telling. I'm not sure how you could watch the playoffs and not notice Z>P dominance.
Mostly agree with the sentiment, but... "where ZvP artists like ZerO and Soulkey resort to Hydra breaks to win."
Pretty strange that you would spearhead your argument with #2 and #4 ZvT Elo players right now, especially when you make it as though they can't win any other way and has to resort to hydra busting.
On August 19 2011 01:03 Crisium wrote: The fact is, excluding Flash, Zerg have absolutely dominated Individual Leagues from 2009-2011, and this is not up for debate. Even excluding Jaedong gives you the same results. What is debatable to you is how much individual leagues mean to you on the current state of the pro scene.
For me, it means a lot. Same with the SPL playoffs where ZvP artists like ZerO and Soulkey resort to Hydra breaks to win. The shit just got serious, so they play to win, and Hydra busts simply show how much better Z is than P. That is very, very telling. I'm not sure how you could watch the playoffs and not notice Z>P dominance.
Mostly agree with the sentiment, but... "where ZvP artists like ZerO and Soulkey resort to Hydra breaks to win."
Pretty strange that you would spearhead your argument with #2 and #4 ZvT Elo players right now, especially when you make it as though they can't win any other way and has to resort to hydra busting.
I didn't mean to make it seem like "they can't win without hydra busts". What I'm saying is that these ZerO and SK can win a ZvP in a multitude of ways. But the hydra bust is the tried and true format that you use in the playoffs cause this shit is serious. And frankly their ZvP prowess is not relevant in this discussion. They are artists (more so ZerO) in ZvP in that they can win at any point in the game and try multiple strategies. But when they need a no-nonsense win, they Hydra break because it is so absurdly good.
Think about the three non-mirror matches. What other race has this kind of timing attacking that can come at several different times in the early-mid game and has such a high win rate? And even if it doesn't work, can be transitioned out of as long as you did good damage. That is the power of Z>P. Zerg's fear of M&M timing attacks cannot even compare to the early-mid game vulnerability of Protoss to Hydralisks. I stand behind the statement that ZvP is the most imbalanced matchup, and the OSL and SPL Playoffs have agreed with me, imo.
On August 19 2011 01:03 Crisium wrote: The fact is, excluding Flash, Zerg have absolutely dominated Individual Leagues from 2009-2011, and this is not up for debate. Even excluding Jaedong gives you the same results. What is debatable to you is how much individual leagues mean to you on the current state of the pro scene.
For me, it means a lot. Same with the SPL playoffs where ZvP artists like ZerO and Soulkey resort to Hydra breaks to win. The shit just got serious, so they play to win, and Hydra busts simply show how much better Z is than P. That is very, very telling. I'm not sure how you could watch the playoffs and not notice Z>P dominance.
Mostly agree with the sentiment, but... "where ZvP artists like ZerO and Soulkey resort to Hydra breaks to win."
Pretty strange that you would spearhead your argument with #2 and #4 ZvT Elo players right now, especially when you make it as though they can't win any other way and has to resort to hydra busting.
I didn't mean to make it seem like "they can't win without hydra busts". What I'm saying is that these ZerO and SK can win a ZvP in a multitude of ways. But the hydra bust is the tried and true format that you use in the playoffs cause this shit is serious. And frankly their ZvP prowess is not relevant in this discussion. They are artists (more so ZerO) in ZvP in that they can win at any point in the game and try multiple strategies. But when they need a no-nonsense win, they Hydra break because it is so absurdly good.
Think about the three non-mirror matches. What other race has this kind of timing attacking that can come at several different times in the early-mid game and has such a high win rate? And even if it doesn't work, can be transitioned out of as long as you did good damage. That is the power of Z>P. Zerg's fear of M&M timing attacks cannot even compare to the early-mid game vulnerability of Protoss to Hydralisks. I stand behind the statement that ZvP is the most imbalanced matchup, and the OSL and SPL Playoffs have agreed with me, imo.
TvZ is almost the same winning percent as ZvP (historically), and it has an array of opening that can be used. bbs, 2rax early upgrade, 4 rax, valkonic, +1 armor gol, etc. At the beginning of the proleague season, Protoss was actually dominating zerg with +1 zeal and sair. It is unfortunate for toss that the balance swung the other way at the most critical time. PvZ is definitely at its lowest point right now, but it'll swing back up again.
Zero executed a lurker drop against Jangbi. Likewise, Soulkey turtled pretty hard against Brave and went to hive. So it's not like they did hydra-bust every time to go for the "sure win". You're also forgetting Woon. A much lesser caliber player trying some kind of cheese that didn't work for him.
TBH, in my amateur opinion, the hydra bust would be much less effective if Protoss weren't going 1-cannon so often recently when FFE-ing. I'm not sure who pioneered it earlier this season, but if we think about it:
1-cannon: barely a deterrent. If Protoss misses or misreads the hydra pressure, more cannons don't go down till 1 1/2 + control groups of hydras show up = losses. 2-cannon: doubles the firepower, means that even without added cannons hydras get cut down a lot faster. IMO this is/was often enough to deter hydra breaks until HTs/reavers get out.
As far as I can, there isn't even a significant map-making change that would be driving this - it's just a greedy phase Protoss is going through. It's understandable, since the hydra > cannon/zeal advantage means a competent Zerg can take map control and/or a tech lead behind a ling-hydra threat - one cannon less is that many more resources to spend elsewhere. So I'm not sure whether reversion is actually correct, or a further strategic development is necessary. (Thought: what is the incidence of hydra breaks on 2-player vs 4-player maps? Close positions vs cross positions? Scouted vs unscouted positions?)
I actually think that the problem lies with scouting(hence Bisu's incredible PvZ winning rate). Toss pretty much always open Stargate, despite the fact that zergs go hydra first most of the time. The threat of mutalisk instantly winning the game without proper defense is just too high. But with proper opening, the toss can respond appropriately.
On the other hand, Terran has scan and Zerg has the overlord parked over the cliff near the nat. Toss is caught playing the guessing game until the sair come out, and it's too late to do anything against the 3 hatch timing.
Also why Bisu always seems to be so good at this. His scout probe takes forever to die, and by then often his 1st Sair is already out. Meaning he wont be kept in the dark for any meaningful amount of time, and thus will be able to respond properly. Im sure there are other reasons as well, but scouting should be one of those up there.
flash is like messi for FC barcelona, such a groundshaking player, even thou some games he looses, or he underperforms, when he do, he make this amazing plays, and everybody wows for its abilities, this is Lee Young Ho!!
On August 19 2011 22:57 arbiter_md wrote: Congrats to KT, they have a great man in the team.
Yes they do, long live HoeJJa
I wouldn't say Hoejja's is just a man, he's the Hand of the King God. Flash figured out that he only needed one hand to beat everyone, so he cut off one of them and it spawned into the Godhand Hoejja.
We should just take Flash's win for granted and recognize Hoejja as the real MVP. His was the first win in the series and undoubtedly couldn't have been a more inspiring one.
On August 20 2011 00:18 mnesthes wrote: We should just take Flash's win for granted and recognize Hoejja as the real MVP. His was the first win in the series and undoubtedly couldn't have been a more inspiring one.
i think all kt players did they job, if hoejja win and flash loose, then that would have been a loss anyway, remeber flash sniped two players, thou it was the same guy. and stats , you should not forget him, his sairs were the hero of the game.
I feel like Bisu should drop in the next PR. His team not choosing him for ace speaks volumes to me about his power level... ie, not near Flash's or even Zero's. Zero stepped up in his ace match... and his team believed in him.
Bisu dominates all season... and at the end, with the season on the line, steps down for BeSt? Coaching staff should be blamed, but so should Bisu.
On August 21 2011 00:42 Vasoline73 wrote: I feel like Bisu should drop in the next PR. His team not choosing him for ace speaks volumes to me about his power level... ie, not near Flash's or even Zero's. Zero stepped up in his ace match... and his team believed in him.
Bisu dominates all season... and at the end, with the season on the line, steps down for BeSt? Coaching staff should be blamed, but so should Bisu.
I agree- I was really surprised when I saw Best prepare for the last match... I was totally expecting Bisu to play that game.
On August 19 2011 01:03 Crisium wrote: The fact is, excluding Flash, Zerg have absolutely dominated Individual Leagues from 2009-2011, and this is not up for debate. Even excluding Jaedong gives you the same results. What is debatable to you is how much individual leagues mean to you on the current state of the pro scene.
For me, it means a lot. Same with the SPL playoffs where ZvP artists like ZerO and Soulkey resort to Hydra breaks to win. The shit just got serious, so they play to win, and Hydra busts simply show how much better Z is than P. That is very, very telling. I'm not sure how you could watch the playoffs and not notice Z>P dominance.
Mostly agree with the sentiment, but... "where ZvP artists like ZerO and Soulkey resort to Hydra breaks to win."
Pretty strange that you would spearhead your argument with #2 and #4 ZvT Elo players right now, especially when you make it as though they can't win any other way and has to resort to hydra busting.
I didn't mean to make it seem like "they can't win without hydra busts". What I'm saying is that these ZerO and SK can win a ZvP in a multitude of ways. But the hydra bust is the tried and true format that you use in the playoffs cause this shit is serious. And frankly their ZvP prowess is not relevant in this discussion. They are artists (more so ZerO) in ZvP in that they can win at any point in the game and try multiple strategies. But when they need a no-nonsense win, they Hydra break because it is so absurdly good.
Think about the three non-mirror matches. What other race has this kind of timing attacking that can come at several different times in the early-mid game and has such a high win rate? And even if it doesn't work, can be transitioned out of as long as you did good damage. That is the power of Z>P. Zerg's fear of M&M timing attacks cannot even compare to the early-mid game vulnerability of Protoss to Hydralisks. I stand behind the statement that ZvP is the most imbalanced matchup, and the OSL and SPL Playoffs have agreed with me, imo.
Over the past year Protoss players have changed their timing very slightly. Hydra busts work so well right now because the Zerg players have figured out the Protoss timing. A failed hydra bust doesn't leave the game 50/50. It allows the game to still be winnable but it puts you at a serious disadvantage if you don't at least make him hurt.
In the long run over SC history, ZvP probably is the most imbalanced. At this exact moment it is probably the most imbalanced. But there are huge swaths of history where it wasn't. There are times the TvZ balance has been far worse. At one point the top Zerg was July and he was struggling to maintain 50% ZvT while you had 4 or 5 guys over 70% TvZ, and this was back before SPL became so big -- a large portion of those wins were earned in tournaments. That's why some of us are still gay for Savior after the shit he pulled. And the PvT balance has tended to be pretty steady with P>T except at the very tippy-top level, where for some reason the S-class Terrans have tended to be able to reverse the balance.
On August 19 2011 13:33 bearbuddy wrote: I actually think that the problem lies with scouting(hence Bisu's incredible PvZ winning rate). Toss pretty much always open Stargate, despite the fact that zergs go hydra first most of the time. The threat of mutalisk instantly winning the game without proper defense is just too high. But with proper opening, the toss can respond appropriately.
On the other hand, Terran has scan and Zerg has the overlord parked over the cliff near the nat. Toss is caught playing the guessing game until the sair come out, and it's too late to do anything against the 3 hatch timing.
This is a huge part of Bisu's success, but I think the scouting issue is incorporated into the balance of the match-up. In Bisu's case, his corsair micro is incomparably better than anybody else's.
On August 21 2011 00:42 Vasoline73 wrote: I feel like Bisu should drop in the next PR. His team not choosing him for ace speaks volumes to me about his power level... ie, not near Flash's or even Zero's. Zero stepped up in his ace match... and his team believed in him.
Bisu dominates all season... and at the end, with the season on the line, steps down for BeSt? Coaching staff should be blamed, but so should Bisu.
I agree- I was really surprised when I saw Best prepare for the last match... I was totally expecting Bisu to play that game.
That doesn't mean as much as you think. I think it was a bad call by SKT1. I think they were putting too much stock in the fact that Best had a winning record against Flash and that Best had beaten Flash on that particular map before. But Flash is still Flash, and if for some reason KT hadn't sent Flash then Best would have lost, 80+% guarantee.
That said, Bisu has gone through yet ANOTHER month against easy opponents. This is seriously growing old.
On August 21 2011 00:42 Vasoline73 wrote: I feel like Bisu should drop in the next PR. His team not choosing him for ace speaks volumes to me about his power level... ie, not near Flash's or even Zero's. Zero stepped up in his ace match... and his team believed in him.
Bisu dominates all season... and at the end, with the season on the line, steps down for BeSt? Coaching staff should be blamed, but so should Bisu.
I agree- I was really surprised when I saw Best prepare for the last match... I was totally expecting Bisu to play that game.
That doesn't mean as much as you think. I think it was a bad call by SKT1. I think they were putting too much stock in the fact that Best had a winning record against Flash and that Best had beaten Flash on that particular map before. But Flash is still Flash, and if for some reason KT hadn't sent Flash then Best would have lost, 80+% guarantee.
That said, Bisu has gone through yet ANOTHER month against easy opponents. This is seriously growing old.
I also think it was a bad call to send Best as ace, but not for the same reason. I mean, Flash is the only consistent player in KT, even though Stats has awaken in the Playoffs showing great games, he sometimes also plays terrible. I think Flash was the only reliable option for the ace match.
But sending (and probably training) Best to snipe Flash instead of sending and preparing Bisu, who has a similar record vs terran overall and a better record this season, and who could defeat Flash in a big stage this year, just seems crazy. I mean, he prepared a BO for the WL finals and it worked. And this map is also Protoss favored, so I think SKT's best shot would have been doing the same, since they had not reliable player to snipe Flash.
Actually it means. It means that SKT coach has no trust in Bisu. And as a player I would be frustrated. I believe, Bisu was pissed off by this decision (and any player with ambition should be).
On August 11 2011 23:36 flamewheel wrote: Close but No Cigar
HoeJJa For the past few months, HoeJJa has suddenly decided to go into beast mode. Yes, after getting knocked out of his MST group he's in neither individual league. However, he has been instrumental in KT's success in making it to the SPL Grand Final, winning five of his seven matches. It's interesting to say this, but a good deal of KT's chance at gold right now depends on HoeJJa winning his match in the final.
flamewheel needs more credit for his unbelievable predicting skill!
On August 11 2011 23:36 flamewheel wrote: Close but No Cigar
HoeJJa For the past few months, HoeJJa has suddenly decided to go into beast mode. Yes, after getting knocked out of his MST group he's in neither individual league. However, he has been instrumental in KT's success in making it to the SPL Grand Final, winning five of his seven matches. It's interesting to say this, but a good deal of KT's chance at gold right now depends on HoeJJa winning his match in the final.
flamewheel needs more credit for his unbelievable predicting skill!
Yeah down 0-2 and playing a matchup he isn't really known for (I would say his worst despite his vT win percentage) his win was super critical for KT's moral... and looking back, KT not losing 0-4 without playing Flash or Stats... lol. I MEAN DID WE REALLY WANT ACTION as our only hope!?
On August 21 2011 00:42 Vasoline73 wrote: I feel like Bisu should drop in the next PR. His team not choosing him for ace speaks volumes to me about his power level... ie, not near Flash's or even Zero's. Zero stepped up in his ace match... and his team believed in him.
Bisu dominates all season... and at the end, with the season on the line, steps down for BeSt? Coaching staff should be blamed, but so should Bisu.
I agree. A lot of people just blame the coach but isn't this an indicator of Bisu's PvT skill? I mean when was the last time he beat a top T with a straight up build?
On August 21 2011 00:42 Vasoline73 wrote: I feel like Bisu should drop in the next PR. His team not choosing him for ace speaks volumes to me about his power level... ie, not near Flash's or even Zero's. Zero stepped up in his ace match... and his team believed in him.
Bisu dominates all season... and at the end, with the season on the line, steps down for BeSt? Coaching staff should be blamed, but so should Bisu.
I agree- I was really surprised when I saw Best prepare for the last match... I was totally expecting Bisu to play that game.
That doesn't mean as much as you think. I think it was a bad call by SKT1. I think they were putting too much stock in the fact that Best had a winning record against Flash and that Best had beaten Flash on that particular map before. But Flash is still Flash, and if for some reason KT hadn't sent Flash then Best would have lost, 80+% guarantee.
That said, Bisu has gone through yet ANOTHER month against easy opponents. This is seriously growing old.
I also think it was a bad call to send Best as ace, but not for the same reason. I mean, Flash is the only consistent player in KT, even though Stats has awaken in the Playoffs showing great games, he sometimes also plays terrible. I think Flash was the only reliable option for the ace match.
But sending (and probably training) Best to snipe Flash instead of sending and preparing Bisu, who has a similar record vs terran overall and a better record this season, and who could defeat Flash in a big stage this year, just seems crazy. I mean, he prepared a BO for the WL finals and it worked. And this map is also Protoss favored, so I think SKT's best shot would have been doing the same, since they had not reliable player to snipe Flash.
Btw, I've seen every game KT has played this year, I'm not trolling or anything
I'm not buying this. Several reasons:
1) Since the start of this Proleague season, Bisu's been 1-3 against Flash. He got 0-2ed in the MSL and lost his regular WL game. 2) But you say, "He prepared and won a game against Flash in the WL Final". This is a good point; however, there are several off-setting considerations. First: Aztec is hugely Protoss-favored. Second: Bisu was playing in a no-pressure situation. SKT was up 3-1 having only spent 1 player before Bisu. With the lineup after him being La Mancha (P>T) and Empire of the Sun (TvT map), SKT obviously would send BeSt and fantasy, probably also with prepared builds, if Bisu lost. 3) Now let's consider BeSt's record. He's 3-1 against Flash this year before the Final. The lone loss was on Fortress. He beat Flash to start the year; his last regular season game against Flash he beat him on Circuit Breaker, the ace map.
Briefly, if you have to win "a game" against Flash, BeSt is the better choice. Despite the "clutch" issue, despite the loss to Flash in the standard set (on a P<T map, or at least P=T), I certainly don't see a compelling reason to send Bisu just because this is the grand final.
The one reason Bisu might have been a better choice is the possibility that KT sends Stats. But (as demonstrated) the chances weren't that high - and it's the mirror either way. (Interestingly, neither Bisu not BeSt have ever won a game against Stats, and fantasy is 2-3, 1-2 this year.)
Let's also think about what would have happened if Bisu had been sent. Most likely, he would have been using either a unique build or an outright cheese, since we can all agree if Bisu's just going to play straight up it's better to send BeSt, who beats Flash regularly. + Show Spoiler [EDIT I WAS WRONG] +
Now, Flash obviously prepped a build for the final: I think it was a flexible anti-SKT-Protoss build. Why? He went with a forward rax and delayed gas - very delayed, the commentators kept pointing this out. In the end, it was a sort of 1 rax FE, similar to a TvZ build in some ways, and then he turtled hard on three bases while only harassing lightly (and to almost no effect). The main fact was that he worked out a way to stall his build progress for scouting time, while still leaving himself almost absolute flexibility. A macro build (from BeSt) would be met by the early expand, while a pressure build or cheese (Bisu) likely would have provoked a m&m timing attack (I can't think of another reason to delay both CC and gas). Now, if Bisu came in and played standard, his overall superior execution to BeSt would have put Flash behind a little - this is why the turtle was almost certainly a planned part of the build. Bisu simply hasn't proved he can take Flash straight-up, and I think Flash was confident enough to risk that small edge at the start to avoid another BO loss.
Of course in the end, Flash beat BeSt handily too. Honestly, while BeSt screwed up somewhere, it's hard to say what he did wrong. The noticeable effect was that his normal "stream of units" simply wasn't there. Critical to that failure was the fact that Flash hit right before BeSt's (or any Protoss) normal "max" timing, so that the initial round was replacing BeSt's entire army, not reinforcing an army still 50% of its starting size. Even so, more zealots and a little more aggression and BeSt might have been able to whittle down the tanks that attacked his natural. Mostly, it's an indicator of what we all know: BeSt doesn't adapt very well in game.
So does BeSt losing mean Bisu was the better choice after all? That's really hard to say, for obvious reasons like "it didn't happen". Ultimately there's no "right answer", but I really don't see evidence that sending Bisu would have improved SKT's chances.
Just a small complaint with your post VGhost because I'm on my phone but Flash's build was a very now standard TvP rax expand. Really doubt he was planning on turning it into any MnM push or do anything crazy with it.
On August 21 2011 00:42 Vasoline73 wrote: I feel like Bisu should drop in the next PR. His team not choosing him for ace speaks volumes to me about his power level... ie, not near Flash's or even Zero's. Zero stepped up in his ace match... and his team believed in him.
Bisu dominates all season... and at the end, with the season on the line, steps down for BeSt? Coaching staff should be blamed, but so should Bisu.
I agree- I was really surprised when I saw Best prepare for the last match... I was totally expecting Bisu to play that game.
That doesn't mean as much as you think. I think it was a bad call by SKT1. I think they were putting too much stock in the fact that Best had a winning record against Flash and that Best had beaten Flash on that particular map before. But Flash is still Flash, and if for some reason KT hadn't sent Flash then Best would have lost, 80+% guarantee.
That said, Bisu has gone through yet ANOTHER month against easy opponents. This is seriously growing old.
I also think it was a bad call to send Best as ace, but not for the same reason. I mean, Flash is the only consistent player in KT, even though Stats has awaken in the Playoffs showing great games, he sometimes also plays terrible. I think Flash was the only reliable option for the ace match.
But sending (and probably training) Best to snipe Flash instead of sending and preparing Bisu, who has a similar record vs terran overall and a better record this season, and who could defeat Flash in a big stage this year, just seems crazy. I mean, he prepared a BO for the WL finals and it worked. And this map is also Protoss favored, so I think SKT's best shot would have been doing the same, since they had not reliable player to snipe Flash.
Btw, I've seen every game KT has played this year, I'm not trolling or anything
I'm not buying this. Several reasons:
1) Since the start of this Proleague season, Bisu's been 1-3 against Flash. He got 0-2ed in the MSL and lost his regular WL game. 2) But you say, "He prepared and won a game against Flash in the WL Final". This is a good point; however, there are several off-setting considerations. First: Aztec is hugely Protoss-favored. Second: Bisu was playing in a no-pressure situation. SKT was up 3-1 having only spent 1 player before Bisu. With the lineup after him being La Mancha (P>T) and Empire of the Sun (TvT map), SKT obviously would send BeSt and fantasy, probably also with prepared builds, if Bisu lost. 3) Now let's consider BeSt's record. He's 3-1 against Flash this year before the Final. The lone loss was on Fortress. He beat Flash to start the year; his last regular season game against Flash he beat him on Circuit Breaker, the ace map.
Briefly, if you have to win "a game" against Flash, BeSt is the better choice. Despite the "clutch" issue, despite the loss to Flash in the standard set (on a P<T map, or at least P=T), I certainly don't see a compelling reason to send Bisu just because this is the grand final.
The one reason Bisu might have been a better choice is the possibility that KT sends Stats. But (as demonstrated) the chances weren't that high - and it's the mirror either way. (Interestingly, neither Bisu not BeSt have ever won a game against Stats, and fantasy is 2-3, 1-2 this year.)
Let's also think about what would have happened if Bisu had been sent. Most likely, he would have been using either a unique build or an outright cheese, since we can all agree if Bisu's just going to play straight up it's better to send BeSt, who beats Flash regularly. + Show Spoiler [EDIT I WAS WRONG] +
Now, Flash obviously prepped a build for the final: I think it was a flexible anti-SKT-Protoss build. Why? He went with a forward rax and delayed gas - very delayed, the commentators kept pointing this out. In the end, it was a sort of 1 rax FE, similar to a TvZ build in some ways, and then he turtled hard on three bases while only harassing lightly (and to almost no effect). The main fact was that he worked out a way to stall his build progress for scouting time, while still leaving himself almost absolute flexibility. A macro build (from BeSt) would be met by the early expand, while a pressure build or cheese (Bisu) likely would have provoked a m&m timing attack (I can't think of another reason to delay both CC and gas). Now, if Bisu came in and played standard, his overall superior execution to BeSt would have put Flash behind a little - this is why the turtle was almost certainly a planned part of the build. Bisu simply hasn't proved he can take Flash straight-up, and I think Flash was confident enough to risk that small edge at the start to avoid another BO loss.
Of course in the end, Flash beat BeSt handily too. Honestly, while BeSt screwed up somewhere, it's hard to say what he did wrong. The noticeable effect was that his normal "stream of units" simply wasn't there. Critical to that failure was the fact that Flash hit right before BeSt's (or any Protoss) normal "max" timing, so that the initial round was replacing BeSt's entire army, not reinforcing an army still 50% of its starting size. Even so, more zealots and a little more aggression and BeSt might have been able to whittle down the tanks that attacked his natural. Mostly, it's an indicator of what we all know: BeSt doesn't adapt very well in game.
So does BeSt losing mean Bisu was the better choice after all? That's really hard to say, for obvious reasons like "it didn't happen". Ultimately there's no "right answer", but I really don't see evidence that sending Bisu would have improved SKT's chances.
Well, part of my point was that Bisu had defeated Flash on a Big stage, which is a big deal. I mean this was not a regular PL game, but a final. And it was the most important game of the final, the ace match. Flash has nerves of steel, and Bisu can handle decisive games (except in OSL lol), but Best, I don't know. Anyway, I guess I just wanted to see an epic Flash vs Bisu game.
Actually it means. It means that SKT coach has no trust in Bisu. And as a player I would be frustrated. I believe, Bisu was pissed off by this decision (and any player with ambition should be).
The coach has no trust in Bisu? All I can say in response is a flat "what?"
Do you have a source indicating that Bisu was pissed by this decision, or is this just a belief based on how you would feel in what you believe to be his circumstance (bear in mind that you don't know everything going on in SKT house)?
All I think it means is that Bisu didn't have the faith in himself to beat Flash. Or the hunger. Which is fine unless you want to be number 1 or close on the PR.
I think if Bisu wanted to play the ace match he would have, he just didn't want to.
Since the start of this Proleague season, Bisu's been 1-3 against Flash.
No. It should be 3-2, as we talk about ACE match, and Best lost his set (which also give as some thoughts about his ability to snipe Flash). Flash lost to Best on Circuit Breaker during his post MSL slump. Can't be taken as a valid data. Also Much has a 4-3 lead over Flash, would you put Much as your Ace player? And Best was on losing streak, and lost to Classic. So, what we have in the end? The player who is not in his top form, and his edge over Flash is quite doubtful, and he failed to snipe the same players few minutes ago. Moreover, Bisu's 1-3 could be easily transformed into 3-1. Games were close, and only few mistakes separate Bisu from winning. Best can play only standard games, and why you should expect standard game in the Ace match of finals? This speculations about Best is good to snipe Flash have no solid ground.
2)
Honestly, while BeSt screwed up somewhere, it's hard to say what he did wrong.
What? His play was horrible in both sets. Check the VOD: The first engagement. Best had a group of goons to clear mines over field. He split his forces and leave half of the group right in front of exit from the Flash base. Flash decided to move out and scattered off positioned goons. Horrible army management from Best. From this point initiative went into the Flash hands. Best fallback to regroup his army and then failed horribly again - sent his lots right into vultures without army support. Continue losing his forces for nothing he did some mediocrity storms and got his arbs EMPed. The only good stuff he did was blocking of 9 o'clock expo. In short - he lost all his army engagements and got scattered over field and failed to regroup.
. Even so, more zealots and a little more aggression and BeSt might have been able to whittle down the tanks that attacked his natural.
No. The game was already lost here. Flash just switched to a-move/don't care mode.
Tl;dr. Best is good choice for standard PL game, but he needs the game where he can dictate his own pace. He can't stand in-game pressure (remember the first game on Fortress), he has no good army control and lack versatility (i.e. easier to snipe/prepare). I don't see how he can be a good choice for final match (without specially prepared canny build at least). Bisu has better micro, better decisions, better army control, better multitask and only lack in terms of head-to-head statistic. And it is not like his macro bad as well. It was decision based on Flash's jinx vs Best, I don't see any other reasons. And you know that Flash is the player who is notorious to overcame such kind of virtual obstacles.
2 Mortality Yep, my statement has no solid ground but I believe it could be the case. Remember interview where Bisu was angry at coach because he forced him to prepare for PL games (was it WL finals?) while he want spent more time for Star League preparation. It shows that Bisu: 1. Can has different opinion from the coach 2. Can be angry by this 3. Has a ambitions and want to prove himself on bigger stage and matches.
All this match perfectly my guess. Anyway I don't see any reason to "what?" my statement as it is the most natural flow of events possible.
On August 21 2011 13:32 Vasoline73 wrote: I think if Bisu wanted to play the ace match he would have, he just didn't want to.
That doesn't make sense. Bisu wouldn't be a top progamer if he really had that attitude.
I can't believe the coaching staff wouldn't use Bisu as their ace if he would insist to play it. Maybe the whole team sat together, or the coaches spoke with their 3 potential ace players a lot etc. and everyone came to the conclusion best had the best chance to take down Flash if it came down to the ace.
But if Bisu insisted that he is the right man to do it as the most successful of the 3 (3 MSL Champ, 63 ProLeague win record, recent WL Semi-Final ace against Jaedong, WL Final taking down Flash) while being on a hot streak, i can't believe the SKT coaching staff would have turned him down.
There has to be some good reasons best was sent out, and while we can't draw a conclusion from the outside, i think a good assumption would be that Bisu wasn't confident enough while Best was.
On August 21 2011 13:32 Vasoline73 wrote: I think if Bisu wanted to play the ace match he would have, he just didn't want to.
That doesn't make sense. Bisu wouldn't be a top progamer if he really had that attitude.
I can't believe the coaching staff wouldn't use Bisu as their ace if he would insist to play it. Maybe the whole team sat together, or the coaches spoke with their 3 potential ace players a lot etc. and everyone came to the conclusion best had the best chance to take down Flash if it came down to the ace.
But if Bisu insisted that he is the right man to do it as the most successful of the 3 (3 MSL Champ, 63 ProLeague win record, recent WL Semi-Final ace against Jaedong, WL Final taking down Flash) while being on a hot streak, i can't believe the SKT coaching staff would have turned him down.
There has to be some good reasons best was sent out, and while we can't draw a conclusion from the outside, i think a good assumption would be that Bisu wasn't confident enough while Best was.
I don't think they would turn him down either, had Bisu insisted on being sent out. It's probably a confidence issue. 3 MSL wins don't really matter that much if you're going against a Golden Mouse receipient who also happened to have won 3 of the last 5 MSLs and knocked you out of the most recent MSL by beating you TWICE.
Both Hoejja and Stats deserve low spots on the next rank for being incredibly clutch throughout the entire end of the playoffs and playing great games while doing it.
On August 21 2011 22:20 Yodo wrote: 2 Mortality Yep, my statement has no solid ground but I believe it could be the case. Remember interview where Bisu was angry at coach because he forced him to prepare for PL games (was it WL finals?) while he want spent more time for Star League preparation. It shows that Bisu: 1. Can has different opinion from the coach 2. Can be angry by this 3. Has a ambitions and want to prove himself on bigger stage and matches.
All this match perfectly my guess. Anyway I don't see any reason to "what?" my statement as it is the most natural flow of events possible.
Obviously Bisu can have a different opinion than his coach. I would expect this. However, this does not mean that Bisu was thinking "the coach doesn't trust me."
My flat "what" is directed towards the sentiment that Bisu is not trusted. Best was clearly chosen as a sniper since he is a one match wonder and had a winning record over Flash going into the SPL grand final. Bisu and Fantasy are much stronger players overall and both able to push Flash to the very limit.
I might remind everyone that due to Flash's wrist injury it was not 100% certain that he would play as the ace, and Bisu and Fantasy both would obviously be stronger against any other player KT might use. Basically, the SKT coach gambled and lost.
On August 22 2011 01:13 HopLight wrote: Both Hoejja and Stats deserve low spots on the next rank for being incredibly clutch throughout the entire end of the playoffs and playing great games while doing it.
Yeah, they both played great games during the playoffs, and won in the finals. How many ovies did Stats kill?
Also, WTF happened to Action lol, that was a really weird game.
I might also remind people... you don't just pick an ace right on the spot. The official decision is of course made right before the ace match happens, but you ALWAYS train your ace for the match in advance. Best was the guy that the SKT coaches picked weeks ago.
Since the start of this Proleague season, Bisu's been 1-3 against Flash.
No. It should be 3-2, as we talk about ACE match, and Best lost his set (which also give as some thoughts about his ability to snipe Flash).
Wait, what? Here's the matchup record. Bisu 1-3 Flash, 1-4 if we counted All-Stars (which of course we wouldn't and iirc was an offrace vs offrace game anyway), since the start of this Proleague season. Where is that wild 3-2 record coming from? Even a hypothetical ace match win would only put him at 2-3. Yes, 1-1 in SPL, but the ace match means preparation which means including the MSL results is reasonable.
On August 21 2011 22:20 Yodo wrote: Flash lost to Best on Circuit Breaker during his post MSL slump. Can't be taken as a valid data. Also Much has a 4-3 lead over Flash, would you put Much as your Ace player? And Best was on losing streak, and lost to Classic. So, what we have in the end? The player who is not in his top form, and his edge over Flash is quite doubtful, and he failed to snipe the same players few minutes ago. Moreover, Bisu's 1-3 could be easily transformed into 3-1. Games were close, and only few mistakes separate Bisu from winning.
You're clutching at straws here. How? - BeSt was the first loss in Flash's "post-MSL slump", which lasted exactly 4 games, none of which mattered, against three of the best in proleague, plus BeSt who's consistently good against Flash. Slump? You have GOT to be kidding me. - Assuming ACE had made the playoffs in the first place, he's as reasonable as anyone else on the team. He's always been an unorthodox player. - Classic has proved very solid against BeSt's style, currently being 3-0. In contrast, BeSt has proven he can beat Flash. BeSt's "losing streak" before the Grand final consisted of losses to great (good ZvP, we all know BeSt's PvZ is terrible), and Classic, which I just covered. Before that he was 7-3 in his last ten PvTs, including 2-0 over Flash. - "Games were close" isn't good enough: except for the Aztec game, Bisu lost. And unlike Aztec, Circuit Breaker can be properly walled.
On August 21 2011 22:20 Yodo wrote: Best can play only standard games, and why you should expect standard game in the Ace match of finals? This speculations about Best is good to snipe Flash have no solid ground.
...Except for BeSt's really freakin' good record against Flash, even in recent play.
I'm not going to continue the gameplay discussion here: while BeSt didn't deal with the push properly he was caught in a really bad position, that given BeSt's style even early successes couldn't have remedied.
On August 21 2011 22:20 Yodo wrote: Tl;dr. Best is good choice for standard PL game, but he needs the game where he can dictate his own pace. He can't stand in-game pressure (remember the first game on Fortress), he has no good army control and lack versatility (i.e. easier to snipe/prepare). I don't see how he can be a good choice for final match (without specially prepared canny build at least).
Against any other team, I'd buy this. Against Jaedong, Hydra, Leta, Stork, Mind, etc. I would send Bisu no questions. But against Flash, BeSt has proven that he can reliably beat Flash (or stand a good chance), and Bisu hasn't. The map difference makes any "prepared build" argument that much weaker, though it does have to be evaluated. If we posit that premise though, we have to account for the fact that Flash may have prepared an anti-Bisu build himself; at this point we'll never know, but MSL results indicate that when both players have prepared for each other, Flash comes out on top.
In other words, this was nothing other than an ace snipe, based on reasonable premises, that just didn't work for once. There is no evidence that Bisu would have done better; there's no evidence that Bisu had been told to prepare for the game (whether or not that would have been a good idea); there's only one game recently that indicates even a prepared Bisu has any chance of beating Flash. Both the map difference and the fact that in the WL final Flash was clearly not played when KT "wanted" him playing have to be taken into account. In the PL final, Flash was playing as a completely prepared ace, not put in a "we ended up down 0-3 now what" situation.
i dont know but i always hear about bisu this and bisu that, but sincerely best was the right choice imo. in the recent games flash has stomped bisu hard, and not only that in the map, flash has a good record, bisu would had lost either way. the problem here is that best nerves made him make too silly mistakes, but i would choose him all time anytime in any current situation against flash. flash was on fire as simple as that, leave it that way.
Now let's consider BeSt's record. He's 3-1 against Flash this year before the Final.
i.e. It is about Flash vs Best statistic.
There is no evidence that Bisu would have done better
True, but there are no evidence that Bisu would have done worse as well.
The only argument you have to support Best is his descent statistic vs Flash. But: 1. They played 4 games only. How you can relay on such a small data? 2. Ace match is very different from normal games, and this is true for all final's games. It is more close to BoX, as we have to deal with a lot of preparation. And in the last NATE MSL Flash 3-0'ed Best. And he would 3-0'ed him in this finals as well. Best is no good outside common games. I would not argue with you if he had some crafty build and failed, but his play was standard. 3. Check Best results, he is constantly out from individual leagues (and from early stages). He is no clutch player.
And yes, Bisu is a better player than Best. The problem lays in false believe of SKT fans that Best can be a threatening opponent for a Flash, and Bisu's PvT is weak. Bisu is in top form, his PvT is fine, how you can miss this chance and send some other toss just because he has few legacy wins? If you want relay on statistic - use it properly. Bisu was better choice for this final match, and I believe Flash would be much more nervous facing Bisu.
There is no evidence that Bisu would have done better
True, but there are no evidence that Bisu would have done worse as well.
The only argument you have to support Best is his descent statistic vs Flash. But: 1. They played 4 games only. How you can relay on such a small data? 2. Ace match is very different from normal games, and this is true for all final's games. It is more close to BoX, as we have to deal with a lot of preparation. And in the last NATE MSL Flash 3-0'ed Best. And he would 3-0'ed him in this finals as well. Best is no good outside common games. I would not argue with you if he had some crafty build and failed, but his play was standard. 3. Check Best results, he is constantly out from individual leagues (and from early stages). He is no clutch player.
And yes, Bisu is a better player than Best. The problem lays in false believe of SKT fans that Best can be a threatening opponent for a Flash, and Bisu's PvT is weak. Bisu is in top form, his PvT is fine, how you can miss this chance and send some other toss just because he has few legacy wins? If you want relay on statistic - use it properly. Bisu was better choice for this final match, and I believe Flash would be much more nervous facing Bisu.
If you agree that there is no evidence to suggest that Bisu would have done better how did you conclude that Bisu would have been a better choice?
It is a small sample but in general that's the problem with H2H records. However watching the games we can still see who has the edge. Watching the games vs. Flash of both players, I'd say Bisu is pretty good and stands a chance esp. if he prepares a snipe build, but Best delivered and even had the momentum in their H2H records. Again, a bit controversial as to how much emphasis should placed on H2H records.
Yes, the Ace match is different. But Best beat Flash in the ace matches in their H2H as well. Best's play was not crafty enough and too standard - well that's the fault of SKT coaches because despite the ample prep time all their builds were pretty standard as pointed out by others.
But specifically pertaining to who should have been the Ace pick - it's a value judgement. I'm sure given the SKT coaches available information, they must've felt Best was the *ahem* best choice. I'm pretty sure they have more relevant information than we do to base their decision upon and I'd trust their choice (after all they did get their ideal match-ups), it's just unfortunate things turned out the way they did for them. I don't think anyone can blame the SKT coaches for their choice, esp. if you put yourself in their shoes.
The thing about Bisu's wins over Flash is that they generally come either from Bisu securing a sizable advantage early and riding it or from Bisu being able to rely on the mobility of the map. A game of his vs Flash on Destination particularly comes to mind -- Flash tried to secure the bridges early (his usual trick vP on that map) and Bisu spread the field with constant movements down the sides of the map.
Bisu has a good PvT history on Circuit Breaker because the Protoss can press in multiple locations, but against an in-form Flash, Bisu's style isn't really the right way to handle Flash on that map. It's too easy for Flash to take and defend 3 bases. If you redesign the map to get rid of the mineral only bases then I think Bisu's chances would improve exponentially (exponential relative to other Protoss players, that is).
I think part of Best's H2H record with Flash, and part of the reason he was chosen, is that while Best is not nearly as good at spreading the field (coordinating pressure simultaneously in multiple spots), he is better at the central battle.
But I'm inclined to think sending Best was a mistake. Bisu is just so much stronger as an overall player right now and Best is more susceptible to confidence issues. Also, it was obvious from the start that SKT would choose Best to snipe Flash during the regular games. Which means that if you go to ace match you're relying on sniping Flash twice with the same player on the same day? Really? Now obviously you cannot guarantee that Best will face Flash during the regular games, but they did manage to nail it and I don't believe that's just pure chance.
Actually, thinking of it from that perspective, it was a horrible choice. The idea of trying to snipe Flash with Best is not horrible, but trying to snipe him twice with the same player on the same day?
I will never understand how you can look at Best's 0-3 after reaching the MSL Ro8, a feat which it would take a miracle for him to achieve at his current skill level, and the ridiculous beating he received in that Fortress game and still think he's a better choice than Bisu against a prepared Flash. Best has been successful against Flash because his style (you know, the one he plays every single PvT) happens to do very well against Flash's standard style, which he developed in order to maintain a 70%-80% winrate in Proleague without having to make up new builds all the time. Best is undeniably worse than Bisu at PvT in general, a fact you can prove to yourself by looking at his recent winrate (60% vs. 80% this year), his ELO (2132 vs. 2255), or a handful of recent games; is by far a worse player overall; and has less experience and worse historical performance in pressure situations.
Certainly, Bisu hasn't had tons of success against Flash either. But neither has anyone else. Flash is the undisputed best player in the world, and he didn't get there by being weak to gimmicky snipe builds. However, Bisu has beaten Flash in straight-up series games for which both prepared, including two at the beginning of his God Mode run (WCG 2009), which is way more than Best can say. Bisu also responded to his loss to Flash on Medusa in GOM way back when with a decisive victory on the same map a few days later in Proleague, demonstrating an ability to adjust that I've never seen from Best.
Now, obviously we can't say that Coach Park made a mistake, as he has significantly more information than we do. Maybe Bisu said he didn't feel confident playing against Flash and Best said that he did. Maybe Bisu was concerned about having to practice against two races for Alternative and CB, whereas Best could safely practice only his vT. Maybe Fantasy and Ssak played team melee as Terran in practice and Best won but Bisu lost. But with the information we do have, stats and VODs, Bisu is unambiguously a better choice than Best for an all-or-nothing game, especially when you can't even be sure that Flash will be the opponent.
I agree with you on the idea that when Flash is serious about taking down Best and only Best, it's not even close -- hell, it's that way with every player in the league, more or less. But if you want to reference the 3-0 thrashing Flash gave Best in the MSL when he was prepared for him, then how can you not mention the more recent 2-0 beating Flash gave Bisu in MSL?
Flash wasn't losing that night -- he's just that once in a generation player who can force that level of dominance, and Park couldn't have made the right choice -- if he sends Bisu, then everyone complains about not sending the "flash killer" Best after Bisu loses, if you send Best then everyone complains about not putting in the "best proleague player" Bisu. It's a catch-22 and the main reason he chose Best is because Best is probably better in practice and they had Best practice more than anyone else for that ace match.
Actually I find good reason to send out Best instead of Bisu: to avoid damage to Bisu's confidence and mental state. He is finally recovered from a long slump, it makes sense to sacrifice Best, who is used to up and downs. Bisu is the only stable SKT player now, pressure and responsibility from the ACE match can bring his spirit down.
TTT, while I agree that Bisu or Best is kinda lose-lose situation, I must note that Flash vs Bisu would please more fans and provide higher hype level. i.e. less ppl would be complain.
I agree that Flash was a clear favorite over everyone on SKT and that fans would complain either way. I just think that Bisu would have had a better shot than Best, even if it's 10% vs. 20% or something like that.
I considered Bisu's recent losses, but I think those games were played on a somewhat lower level than this would have been. Again, no player is a favorite over Flash right now; unlike some other past top players, he has no "nemesis" who beats him consistently. My argument basically boils down to two major points: 1. Best's much-touted >50% winrate against Flash is a red herring that fails to take into account the circumstances of the games, meaning that SKT has no real "Flash sniper" and that they should therefore send their best vT player. 2. This player is Bisu.
It's easy to say that after Flash 2-0's him in the grand finals. People have been touting Best as the Anti-Flash for this entire season and it is only now the controversy comes up because Flash, as Flash is oft to do, thrashed him. No one, no single damn fan, would've raised a peep about playing Bisu if Best would've won(besides maybe the pure bisu fans going "I would've liked it if Bisu could've beaten Flash but this is great too!!" kind of stuff), and that's why this whole bit is dumb. It's revisionist history of Park's idea that didn't work and the rampant hypocrisy is annoying.
On August 23 2011 11:10 TwoToneTerran wrote: It's easy to say that after Flash 2-0's him in the grand finals. People have been touting Best as the Anti-Flash for this entire season and it is only now the controversy comes up because Flash, as Flash is oft to do, thrashed him. No one, no single damn fan, would've raised a peep about playing Bisu if Best would've won(besides maybe the pure bisu fans going "I would've liked it if Bisu could've beaten Flash but this is great too!!" kind of stuff), and that's why this whole bit is dumb. It's revisionist history of Park's bad idea and the rampant hypocrisy is annoying.
This is 99% truth. But TBH I think I might have at least thought "huh, I would have sent Bisu" even if I didn't say it. Then again, I'm just weird like that.
On August 23 2011 11:10 TwoToneTerran wrote: It's easy to say that after Flash 2-0's him in the grand finals. People have been touting Best as the Anti-Flash for this entire season and it is only now the controversy comes up because Flash, as Flash is oft to do, thrashed him. No one, no single damn fan, would've raised a peep about playing Bisu if Best would've won(besides maybe the pure bisu fans going "I would've liked it if Bisu could've beaten Flash but this is great too!!" kind of stuff), and that's why this whole bit is dumb. It's revisionist history of Park's idea that didn't work and the rampant hypocrisy is annoying.
No, this was my position before the finals as well. I honestly never thought anyone outside the SKT fanboy bubble actually believed Best was a favorite over Flash in anything but a random Proleague game, and I think I said pretty much the same thing as I did above in some post in the LR thread when Best beat Flash on CB with both doing their standard builds. But whatever, it's not like I sealed "FLASH > BEST" in an envelope before the finals, so you can think I'm Monday-morning quarterbacking if you want.
I'm speaking to the general outrage that is primarily coming from the SKT fanboy bubble, which is a very sizable amount of the BW forums. You're arguing from the same premise so it's just easy to address.
I, personally, do not think Bisu is any better a chance at winning against Flash than Best. It's pure skepticism without any, you know, high quality analytic work on the players and how they play the matchup. That thing that Park does and that he got Coach of the Year (again!) for.
On August 23 2011 11:10 TwoToneTerran wrote: It's easy to say that after Flash 2-0's him in the grand finals. People have been touting Best as the Anti-Flash for this entire season and it is only now the controversy comes up because Flash, as Flash is oft to do, thrashed him. No one, no single damn fan, would've raised a peep about playing Bisu if Best would've won(besides maybe the pure bisu fans going "I would've liked it if Bisu could've beaten Flash but this is great too!!" kind of stuff), and that's why this whole bit is dumb. It's revisionist history of Park's idea that didn't work and the rampant hypocrisy is annoying.
No, this was my position before the finals as well. I honestly never thought anyone outside the SKT fanboy bubble actually believed Best was a favorite over Flash in anything but a random Proleague game, and I think I said pretty much the same thing as I did above in some post in the LR thread when Best beat Flash on CB with both doing their standard builds. But whatever, it's not like I sealed "FLASH > BEST" in an envelope before the finals, so you can think I'm Monday-morning quarterbacking if you want.
When I said that what TTT said was 99% truth, I think you are a part of that other 1%. But honestly, as he said, would we be having this conversation if Best won?
If Bisu played and lost, I think you'd be hearing a tenth of the complaints about playing your best player in the ace match than playing a gimmicky player who some people seem to have this delusional idea that he's a Flash killer based on a flawed H2H record.
Absolutely not. Every SKT fan and their mother would be talking about how Best is the only guy besides Jaedong who's consistently beat Flash in proleague this season. Absolutely a no win situation.
On August 23 2011 11:10 TwoToneTerran wrote: It's easy to say that after Flash 2-0's him in the grand finals. People have been touting Best as the Anti-Flash for this entire season and it is only now the controversy comes up because Flash, as Flash is oft to do, thrashed him. No one, no single damn fan, would've raised a peep about playing Bisu if Best would've won(besides maybe the pure bisu fans going "I would've liked it if Bisu could've beaten Flash but this is great too!!" kind of stuff), and that's why this whole bit is dumb. It's revisionist history of Park's idea that didn't work and the rampant hypocrisy is annoying.
People were surprised at the Best choice in the LR thread before the ace match started. I think that shows that the choice was doubtful before the outcome was known.
I also think that if Bisu had been sent and lost, that there would be a lot less second-guessing now.
The thing is, you need someone with the right mindset to play the ace match in the fucking proleague finals. You need someone who has absolute confidence in themselves despite going against a steamroller. You need to be able to train to believe that they can will the steamroller out of existence.
This worked for SKT against Oz. Fantasy, despite being shaky historically TvZ, was sent to destroy JD, and he did.
Maybe them could have used him for this role. Maybe they could have used Bisu (he must have confidence after his ridiculous season, including at least one important win against Flash this year).
Best is never going to be able to achieve that state, especially since you need someone who can hold this confidence after possibly being beaten by Flash minutes earlier. Best just doesn't have that grit.
I'm confused by this idea that the H2H record is "flawed". We can always draw conclusions based on overall play, but when players play each other with any regularity that's when I, at least, feel most confident that I can predict the outcome of the game with some confidence.
Before the final, Flash had played BeSt 4 times (1-3) and Bisu 4 times (3-1) in the last season. Over that period, there are only a few people that Flash has played at least that often:
I can look at that record, and without any other evidence whatsoever say that of all of those, if I have to pick one player, any player, to beat Flash, right now, I choose Jaedong. Most people here would probably agree with me. Of course, as we all know you can't go just on statistics, and there always will be things to be careful about. But results - wins and losses - do, almost always, give a overall accurate picture. Would I be more confident in saying BeSt was the right choice if the records were Flash 5-4 vs BeSt and 7-2 vs Bisu? Yes - a greater sample is always good. But even with a relatively small sample, if you disagree with the "results" the onus is on you to give good reason for disregarding them - which I haven't seen done. (Expanding the sample size doesn't do the Bisu argument any favors: Flash is 14-9 vs Bisu lifetime and 7-6 vs BeSt.)
On August 24 2011 03:48 nodule wrote: People were surprised at the Best choice in the LR thread before the ace match started. I think that shows that the choice was doubtful before the outcome was known.
That was more because Flash caved BeSt's skull in two sets prior to the ace match.
On August 24 2011 03:48 nodule wrote: People were surprised at the Best choice in the LR thread before the ace match started. I think that shows that the choice was doubtful before the outcome was known.
That was more because Flash caved BeSt's skull in two sets prior to the ace match.
Most fans forget that ace players are chosen well in advance.
On August 24 2011 03:53 VGhost wrote: I'm confused by this idea that the H2H record is "flawed". We can always draw conclusions based on overall play, but when players play each other with any regularity that's when I, at least, feel most confident that I can predict the outcome of the game with some confidence.
Before the final, Flash had played BeSt 4 times (1-3) and Bisu 4 times (3-1) in the last season. Over that period, there are only a few people that Flash has played at least that often:
I can look at that record, and without any other evidence whatsoever say that of all of those, if I have to pick one player, any player, to beat Flash, right now, I choose Jaedong. Most people here would probably agree with me. Of course, as we all know you can't go just on statistics, and there always will be things to be careful about. But results - wins and losses - do, almost always, give a overall accurate picture. Would I be more confident in saying BeSt was the right choice if the records were Flash 5-4 vs BeSt and 7-2 vs Bisu? Yes - a greater sample is always good. But even with a relatively small sample, if you disagree with the "results" the onus is on you to give good reason for disregarding them - which I haven't seen done. (Expanding the sample size doesn't do the Bisu argument any favors: Flash is 14-9 vs Bisu lifetime and 7-6 vs BeSt.)
I think a few people have noticed how Best wins *all* of his games against Flash, that is Flash plays extremely passive then gets completely rolled over because Best gets 4 bases extremely easily without taking any damage.
They've also noticed that the minute Flash doesn't do the whole passive thing, Best just does not win against Flash. In recent days, I don't think there's a single time Best has won when Flash chooses a more aggressive play. In the finals, both games weren't even close: he rushed Best in the first game, then picked an extremely specific build to counter his sort of playstyle in the ace match.
I think a lot of people believed that, despite H2H records, Bisu's finals experience and, I guess, better skillset outside of center macro battles would have been a better pick. Though realistically, neither Best or Bisu were going to win that day because who are we kidding, Flash was prepared this time round and not playing a "welp my team is 0-3 and I still need to play Best and Fantasy" situation.
On August 24 2011 03:48 nodule wrote: People were surprised at the Best choice in the LR thread before the ace match started. I think that shows that the choice was doubtful before the outcome was known.
That was more because Flash caved BeSt's skull in two sets prior to the ace match.
Most fans forget that ace players are chosen well in advance.
Of course it doesn't change the coach's decision, but to the fans, all they see is that BeSt got smashed once already so they couldn't say "BeSt > Flash lololololol" prior to the ace match.
On August 24 2011 03:48 nodule wrote: People were surprised at the Best choice in the LR thread before the ace match started. I think that shows that the choice was doubtful before the outcome was known.
That was more because Flash caved BeSt's skull in two sets prior to the ace match.
Most fans forget that ace players are chosen well in advance.
Most coaches wouldn't send up a fragile player against the best player in the world twice, knowing that he might get smashed the first time.
On August 24 2011 03:48 nodule wrote: People were surprised at the Best choice in the LR thread before the ace match started. I think that shows that the choice was doubtful before the outcome was known.
That was more because Flash caved BeSt's skull in two sets prior to the ace match.
Most fans forget that ace players are chosen well in advance.
Most coaches wouldn't send up a fragile player against the best player in the world twice, knowing that he might get smashed the first time.
I've already discussed this... doesn't change that Best was chosen well in advance as the ace player.
Not to beat a dead horse, but I just hoped SKT had prepared ALL 3 of their aces to potentially play the ace match. I'd actually rather have Fantasy up there than Best. Fantasy delivers in clutch situations like no other player. And yes, even Bisu (SKT's WL ace)
Why would you take practice time away from their normal game when you absolutely know who KT is going to send and on a specific map? No sense in detracting from the other games when you know, or atleast feel you know, who your best shot at beating Flash in the ace is. Especially when your best strategy is to just win 4-2.
On August 24 2011 03:48 nodule wrote: People were surprised at the Best choice in the LR thread before the ace match started. I think that shows that the choice was doubtful before the outcome was known.
That was more because Flash caved BeSt's skull in two sets prior to the ace match.
Most fans forget that ace players are chosen well in advance.
Most coaches wouldn't send up a fragile player against the best player in the world twice, knowing that he might get smashed the first time.
Actually, I think that Fortress was a throwaway match and that Best was always preparing just for CB. This follows from a few assumptions:
1) Best was always going to be the ace player. There's no way Coach Park had multiple players prepare for Flash on CB and then decided on the spot that Best was the one he would send after the crushing defeat on Fortress. Both other members of FBB won their games, so if either or both of them had also practiced for the ace match, he would be crazy not to send one of them. Therefore, Best must have been chosen in advance to be the ace player come hell or high water.
2) Best would not split his preparation time in an effort to win two sets against Flash. SKT's strategy never revolved around defeating Flash specifically, which should be evident from the lineup. They sent their strongest players early on maps where Flash was unlikely to appear in an effort to beat the rest of KT 4-0 or 4-1. Given Best's skill as a player, it would be insane to choose him to be the person to prepare for Flash on two separate maps and win even one of them--if you need a player who can prepare for multiple maps against the same opponent, you pick a player who has shown strength in series play, like Bisu or especially Fantasy. This implies that Best was really only practicing for one of the two maps.
3) SKT had no better choice for Fortress than Best even given the above. Best can only play one matchup, PvT. He's a likely loss versus almost any other member of KT, since he can't beat Zerg and Stats has much stronger PvP. Nonetheless, you can't just forfeit the Fortress set, and SKT's other players all had better shots against their non-Flash opponents than Best would have had, so process of elimination leaves Best to play Fortress. If Flash happens to play into Best's hands and lose, that's just gravy; if not, SKT hasn't really lost anything anyway.
There's sort of a couple holes in that the above would sort of imply that Ssak might be a better choice for Fortress than Best and that it overlooks the psychological aspect of potentially being destroyed in a game, throwaway or not, and then having to come back out for the biggest match of the night, but the alternatives seem even more unbelievable.
On August 24 2011 11:14 Caladbolg wrote: Not to beat a dead horse, but I just hoped SKT had prepared ALL 3 of their aces to potentially play the ace match. I'd actually rather have Fantasy up there than Best. Fantasy delivers in clutch situations like no other player. And yes, even Bisu (SKT's WL ace)
everyone has 20/20 hindsight. given how best has consistently performed extremely well against flash in proleague (losing only ONCE prior to the grand finals) id say the managers and coaching staff wouldve been fools had they not chosen best.
regardless of the outcome they made the correct the decision in picking best to snipe flash.
I don't think Best on Fortress was just a throwaway. Remember that the finals were delayed by 2 weeks. SKT might have completely rearranged their battle strategy, and they certainly had time for Best to focus on sniping Flash on two maps. I just don't think it's a good idea to have any player not named JD or maaaaybe Zero try to snipe Flash on twice in the same night right now.
All jokes aside, is there anyone in Oz one who can defeat Bisu? Because Bisu's vZ seemed to be too much for Jaedong in their last encounters, and killer is also a zerg.
On August 24 2011 11:14 Caladbolg wrote: Not to beat a dead horse, but I just hoped SKT had prepared ALL 3 of their aces to potentially play the ace match. I'd actually rather have Fantasy up there than Best. Fantasy delivers in clutch situations like no other player. And yes, even Bisu (SKT's WL ace)
everyone has 20/20 hindsight. given how best has consistently performed extremely well against flash in proleague (losing only ONCE prior to the grand finals) id say the managers and coaching staff wouldve been fools had they not chosen best.
regardless of the outcome they made the correct the decision in picking best to snipe flash.
On July 27 2011 04:00 SimonB wrote: I always lol a little bit when I read about Best as an actual rival or opponent against Flash.
6-5 record against Flash, well done, but when Flash has played as many players as he has, statistically that's just going to happen sometimes. Best has little better chance against Flash than does Much, or Casy has against Jaedong.
....
Bisu is so much better than Best in every way. H2H small samples shouldn't deceive you into thinking that Best is a good ace option. Fantasy would be better if it wasn't for his recent slump (which he may or may not be out of).
Hindsight or not, he was always a ridiculous choice.
Edit: Previous to this final, BeSt was in the group of TITANS like MUCH, TESTER, M18M, & UPMAGIC (and depending on what games you count that silly little player Jaedong) that had winning records against Flash.
Now he joins the legions who are down a game in their H2H, and he has no claim to fame anymore. He is just a plain old shitty player now.
On August 24 2011 12:24 agarangu wrote: Ok, so Flash > SKT. Also, Jaedong > Flash. Therefore Jaedong > SKT, right?
All jokes aside, is there anyone in Oz one who can defeat Bisu? Because Bisu's vZ seemed to be too much for Jaedong in their last encounters, and killer is also a zerg.
does it matter? theyd still get rolled by everybody else. i like hiya's chances though despite being a mediocre terran, his best mu is still vp and is currently (2011) performing very well against them.
On August 24 2011 11:14 Caladbolg wrote: Not to beat a dead horse, but I just hoped SKT had prepared ALL 3 of their aces to potentially play the ace match. I'd actually rather have Fantasy up there than Best. Fantasy delivers in clutch situations like no other player. And yes, even Bisu (SKT's WL ace)
everyone has 20/20 hindsight. given how best has consistently performed extremely well against flash in proleague (losing only ONCE prior to the grand finals) id say the managers and coaching staff wouldve been fools had they not chosen best.
regardless of the outcome they made the correct the decision in picking best to snipe flash.
On July 27 2011 04:00 SimonB wrote: I always lol a little bit when I read about Best as an actual rival or opponent against Flash.
6-5 record against Flash, well done, but when Flash has played as many players as he has, statistically that's just going to happen sometimes. Best has little better chance against Flash than does Much, or Casy has against Jaedong.
....
Bisu is so much better than Best in every way. H2H small samples shouldn't deceive you into thinking that Best is a good ace option. Fantasy would be better if it wasn't for his recent slump (which he may or may not be out of).
Hindsight or not, he was always a ridiculous choice.
Edit: Previous to this final, BeSt was in the group of TITANS like MUCH, TESTER, M18M, & UPMAGIC (and depending on what games you count that silly little player Jaedong) that had winning records against Flash.
Now he joins the legions who are down a game in their H2H, and he has no claim to fame anymore. He is just a plain old shitty player now.
fantasy is 1-4 against flash in proleague. the last time he played on circuit breaker against a terran was LAST YEAR.
bisu has only beaten slumping/scrub terrans on circuit breaker and lost to tvp god...hiya.
best was 5-1 against flash in proleague prior to the finals, and has beaten flash on circuit breaker.
records dont lie and at least in proleague with his coaches and mates cheering for him, best for some reason has the edge against flash.
bisu was a good choice but best was better. if it was a random map/random event or for instance against oz and obviously jd wouldve been the ace then yeah best wouldve been ridiculous.
On August 24 2011 13:43 TwoToneTerran wrote: Um, has anyone noticed the PR is no longer on the right side of TL?
Don't worry. I'm sure a feature to put it back is on its way, along with game filtering for the calendar and the ability to set TLPD to search BW by default. Right after those Mafia improvements...
I know that BW isn't a "big ticket" item with TL anymore but wow, this sucks
Its one thing for the korean scene to slowly die out, but to have TL turn its back on bw hurts even more. I expect that PR traffic will dwindle in the next few months since it'll be harder to find (and impossible to see comment counts to see if its been updated), we'll be lucky to break 10 pages in the coming months.
I still can't get over the fact that JD is playing like the Killer of old (somewhat) and Killer is playing like the Jaedong of old..............Killer was so fucking terrible how did this happen lol. From getting nuked by Boxer to this.......Neo Jaedong? Omg I can't take him seriously hahah.
On August 24 2011 17:59 JIJIyO wrote: I still can't get over the fact that JD is playing like the Killer of old (somewhat) and Killer is playing like the Jaedong of old..............Killer was so fucking terrible how did this happen lol. From getting nuked by Boxer to this.......Neo Jaedong? Omg I can't take him seriously hahah.
Well as far as Jaedong goes, it's only his ZvZ. The last we saw of his ZvP was a fantastic game, and there's only one player I'd favor over him in that matchup. And his ZvT is easily the best in the world.
Killer though I think has had a good amount of skill for a while, but he was very prone to messing up, losing focus or making bad decisions due to nerves. Now that he seems to have come over that, we instead see something that is a lot closer to the skill he has probably been showing in practice for a long time (considering how much he got sent out even when he lost almost everything).
On August 24 2011 20:29 elsx wrote: What the hell happened to Power Rank?
It's too big for TL now, the right sidebar wasn't able to handle Flash's ultimate gosu god power anymore. It's no wonder though, i was surprised it lasted for so long.
On August 24 2011 12:24 agarangu wrote: Ok, so Flash > SKT. Also, Jaedong > Flash. Therefore Jaedong > SKT, right?
All jokes aside, is there anyone in Oz one who can defeat Bisu? Because Bisu's vZ seemed to be too much for Jaedong in their last encounters, and killer is also a zerg.
On August 24 2011 11:14 Caladbolg wrote: Not to beat a dead horse, but I just hoped SKT had prepared ALL 3 of their aces to potentially play the ace match. I'd actually rather have Fantasy up there than Best. Fantasy delivers in clutch situations like no other player. And yes, even Bisu (SKT's WL ace)
everyone has 20/20 hindsight. given how best has consistently performed extremely well against flash in proleague (losing only ONCE prior to the grand finals) id say the managers and coaching staff wouldve been fools had they not chosen best.
regardless of the outcome they made the correct the decision in picking best to snipe flash.
On July 27 2011 04:00 SimonB wrote: I always lol a little bit when I read about Best as an actual rival or opponent against Flash.
6-5 record against Flash, well done, but when Flash has played as many players as he has, statistically that's just going to happen sometimes. Best has little better chance against Flash than does Much, or Casy has against Jaedong.
....
Bisu is so much better than Best in every way. H2H small samples shouldn't deceive you into thinking that Best is a good ace option. Fantasy would be better if it wasn't for his recent slump (which he may or may not be out of).
Hindsight or not, he was always a ridiculous choice.
Edit: Previous to this final, BeSt was in the group of TITANS like MUCH, TESTER, M18M, & UPMAGIC (and depending on what games you count that silly little player Jaedong) that had winning records against Flash.
Now he joins the legions who are down a game in their H2H, and he has no claim to fame anymore. He is just a plain old shitty player now.
fantasy is 1-4 against flash in proleague. the last time he played on circuit breaker against a terran was LAST YEAR.
bisu has only beaten slumping/scrub terrans on circuit breaker and lost to tvp god...hiya.
best was 5-1 against flash in proleague prior to the finals, and has beaten flash on circuit breaker.
records dont lie and at least in proleague with his coaches and mates cheering for him, best for some reason has the edge against flash.
bisu was a good choice but best was better. if it was a random map/random event or for instance against oz and obviously jd wouldve been the ace then yeah best wouldve been ridiculous.
If we're going to talk about results on CB, Bisu is 7-1 in PvT and 1-1 against Hiya on that map. As for only playing scrubs, basically there are only 3 players who are consistently strong at TvP and one of them is on Bisu's team.
Best was 1-4 on CB in PvT going into the finals, although his 1 win did come from Flash. [Note: I'm not counting the offline prelim victory over B-teamer Always.]
In regular SPL season play, Best does have a h2h advantage over Flash, but that's the ONLY stat in Best's favor.
On August 24 2011 12:24 agarangu wrote: Ok, so Flash > SKT. Also, Jaedong > Flash. Therefore Jaedong > SKT, right?
All jokes aside, is there anyone in Oz one who can defeat Bisu? Because Bisu's vZ seemed to be too much for Jaedong in their last encounters, and killer is also a zerg.
On August 24 2011 11:14 Caladbolg wrote: Not to beat a dead horse, but I just hoped SKT had prepared ALL 3 of their aces to potentially play the ace match. I'd actually rather have Fantasy up there than Best. Fantasy delivers in clutch situations like no other player. And yes, even Bisu (SKT's WL ace)
everyone has 20/20 hindsight. given how best has consistently performed extremely well against flash in proleague (losing only ONCE prior to the grand finals) id say the managers and coaching staff wouldve been fools had they not chosen best.
regardless of the outcome they made the correct the decision in picking best to snipe flash.
On July 27 2011 04:00 SimonB wrote: I always lol a little bit when I read about Best as an actual rival or opponent against Flash.
6-5 record against Flash, well done, but when Flash has played as many players as he has, statistically that's just going to happen sometimes. Best has little better chance against Flash than does Much, or Casy has against Jaedong.
....
Bisu is so much better than Best in every way. H2H small samples shouldn't deceive you into thinking that Best is a good ace option. Fantasy would be better if it wasn't for his recent slump (which he may or may not be out of).
Hindsight or not, he was always a ridiculous choice.
Edit: Previous to this final, BeSt was in the group of TITANS like MUCH, TESTER, M18M, & UPMAGIC (and depending on what games you count that silly little player Jaedong) that had winning records against Flash.
Now he joins the legions who are down a game in their H2H, and he has no claim to fame anymore. He is just a plain old shitty player now.
fantasy is 1-4 against flash in proleague. the last time he played on circuit breaker against a terran was LAST YEAR.
bisu has only beaten slumping/scrub terrans on circuit breaker and lost to tvp god...hiya.
best was 5-1 against flash in proleague prior to the finals, and has beaten flash on circuit breaker.
records dont lie and at least in proleague with his coaches and mates cheering for him, best for some reason has the edge against flash.
bisu was a good choice but best was better. if it was a random map/random event or for instance against oz and obviously jd wouldve been the ace then yeah best wouldve been ridiculous.
If we're going to talk about results on CB, Bisu is 7-1 in PvT and 1-1 against Hiya on that map. As for only playing scrubs, basically there are only 3 players who are consistently strong at TvP and one of them is on Bisu's team.
Best was 1-4 on CB in PvT going into the finals, although his 1 win did come from Flash. [Note: I'm not counting the offline prelim victory over B-teamer Always.]
In regular SPL season play, Best does have a h2h advantage over Flash, but that's the ONLY stat in Best's favor.
dunno about you, but id always go with the guy with the winning record. next best thing wouldve been bisu whos 1-3 against handicapped flash this year and thats bisu playing in peak form.
blame skt1 for letting it get to ace, just like the korean netizen's spl drawing: while skt1 is chock full of gosus, kt has flash 'nuff said.
Why would you take practice time away from their normal game when you absolutely know who KT is going to send and on a specific map?
Do not forget, SKT has month of preparation time as they secured the #1 spot and weather gave them even more days. While KT were forced to play trough entire playoff, and Flash has OSL match vs Jangbi in OSL (though, the same goes to Fanta). They have time enough to prepare all their players to be ACE. But the only prepared players were KT (most of their games were some wired strats) while SKT preferred to play straight.
So, why do you want to put all eggs in one basket and relay only on Best as your ace player? Doesn't make sense. The only possible reason is a strong believe in winning before ace match, which is a bit wrong thing to do. And if you want to gamble then you have Hyuk.
Why would you take practice time away from their normal game when you absolutely know who KT is going to send and on a specific map?
Do not forget, SKT has month of preparation time as they secured the #1 spot and weather gave them even more days. While KT were forced to play trough entire playoff, and Flash has OSL match vs Jangbi in OSL (though, the same goes to Fanta). They have time enough to prepare all their players to be ACE. But the only prepared players were KT (most of their games were some wired strats) while SKT preferred to play straight.
So, why do you want to put all eggs in one basket and relay only on Best as your ace player? Doesn't make sense. The only possible reason is a strong believe in winning before ace match, which is a bit wrong thing to do. And if you want to gamble then you have Hyuk.
death, taxes and flash in a proleague grand finals ace match. why prepare fantasy, bisu and best for ace when they can only do it once? you pick the one with whos actually favored against flash and pretty much hope for the best.
SC2 fans were probably uncomfortable having a constant reminder that the best players are still in BW on the front page. Apparently Tastosis have been referring to Zergbong as 'God' recently, so having Flash as a constant reminder on the front page must have been causing a crisis of faith.
On August 24 2011 12:24 agarangu wrote: Ok, so Flash > SKT. Also, Jaedong > Flash. Therefore Jaedong > SKT, right?
All jokes aside, is there anyone in Oz one who can defeat Bisu? Because Bisu's vZ seemed to be too much for Jaedong in their last encounters, and killer is also a zerg.
Hiya when he's on.
On August 24 2011 13:39 ligas wrote:
On August 24 2011 12:47 SimonB wrote:
On August 24 2011 11:48 ligas wrote:
On August 24 2011 11:14 Caladbolg wrote: Not to beat a dead horse, but I just hoped SKT had prepared ALL 3 of their aces to potentially play the ace match. I'd actually rather have Fantasy up there than Best. Fantasy delivers in clutch situations like no other player. And yes, even Bisu (SKT's WL ace)
everyone has 20/20 hindsight. given how best has consistently performed extremely well against flash in proleague (losing only ONCE prior to the grand finals) id say the managers and coaching staff wouldve been fools had they not chosen best.
regardless of the outcome they made the correct the decision in picking best to snipe flash.
On July 27 2011 04:00 SimonB wrote: I always lol a little bit when I read about Best as an actual rival or opponent against Flash.
6-5 record against Flash, well done, but when Flash has played as many players as he has, statistically that's just going to happen sometimes. Best has little better chance against Flash than does Much, or Casy has against Jaedong.
....
Bisu is so much better than Best in every way. H2H small samples shouldn't deceive you into thinking that Best is a good ace option. Fantasy would be better if it wasn't for his recent slump (which he may or may not be out of).
Hindsight or not, he was always a ridiculous choice.
Edit: Previous to this final, BeSt was in the group of TITANS like MUCH, TESTER, M18M, & UPMAGIC (and depending on what games you count that silly little player Jaedong) that had winning records against Flash.
Now he joins the legions who are down a game in their H2H, and he has no claim to fame anymore. He is just a plain old shitty player now.
fantasy is 1-4 against flash in proleague. the last time he played on circuit breaker against a terran was LAST YEAR.
bisu has only beaten slumping/scrub terrans on circuit breaker and lost to tvp god...hiya.
best was 5-1 against flash in proleague prior to the finals, and has beaten flash on circuit breaker.
records dont lie and at least in proleague with his coaches and mates cheering for him, best for some reason has the edge against flash.
bisu was a good choice but best was better. if it was a random map/random event or for instance against oz and obviously jd wouldve been the ace then yeah best wouldve been ridiculous.
If we're going to talk about results on CB, Bisu is 7-1 in PvT and 1-1 against Hiya on that map. As for only playing scrubs, basically there are only 3 players who are consistently strong at TvP and one of them is on Bisu's team.
Best was 1-4 on CB in PvT going into the finals, although his 1 win did come from Flash. [Note: I'm not counting the offline prelim victory over B-teamer Always.]
In regular SPL season play, Best does have a h2h advantage over Flash, but that's the ONLY stat in Best's favor.
dunno about you, but id always go with the guy with the winning record. next best thing wouldve been bisu whos 1-3 against handicapped flash this year and thats bisu playing in peak form.
blame skt1 for letting it get to ace, just like the korean netizen's spl drawing: while skt1 is chock full of gosus, kt has flash 'nuff said.
4 games is hardly a compelling sample. Regardless, I've already written 3000+ words on this issue both before and after the final. I won't reiterate them.
On August 25 2011 01:14 Crisium wrote: I am so pleased that it's harder to get to the PR.
Wait, no I'm not.
At least I know White Ra is the 5th best foreign SC2 player? Is that what it's saying?
OSL Ro8 concludes soon. Let's all keep praying that JangBi can take down the Ultimate Weapon.
Praying to whom? JangBi is playing against God
Pray to the OLD GODS whose names have been forgotten in all but a few eldritch tomes of Starcraft lore.
Giyom, you who are called God From The Time Before Gods in the hallowed pages of the Necrobroodwaricon, I invoke thy spirit! IntoTheRain, Storm King Of The Stars, I call thy thunder! And to the elder Protoss spirit who achieved more success than any in the legendary Colosseum of Ongamenet, to the Emperor Slayer Garimto I say, "Let there be proxies!"
On August 24 2011 12:24 agarangu wrote: Ok, so Flash > SKT. Also, Jaedong > Flash. Therefore Jaedong > SKT, right?
All jokes aside, is there anyone in Oz one who can defeat Bisu? Because Bisu's vZ seemed to be too much for Jaedong in their last encounters, and killer is also a zerg.
Hiya when he's on.
On August 24 2011 13:39 ligas wrote:
On August 24 2011 12:47 SimonB wrote:
On August 24 2011 11:48 ligas wrote:
On August 24 2011 11:14 Caladbolg wrote: Not to beat a dead horse, but I just hoped SKT had prepared ALL 3 of their aces to potentially play the ace match. I'd actually rather have Fantasy up there than Best. Fantasy delivers in clutch situations like no other player. And yes, even Bisu (SKT's WL ace)
everyone has 20/20 hindsight. given how best has consistently performed extremely well against flash in proleague (losing only ONCE prior to the grand finals) id say the managers and coaching staff wouldve been fools had they not chosen best.
regardless of the outcome they made the correct the decision in picking best to snipe flash.
On July 27 2011 04:00 SimonB wrote: I always lol a little bit when I read about Best as an actual rival or opponent against Flash.
6-5 record against Flash, well done, but when Flash has played as many players as he has, statistically that's just going to happen sometimes. Best has little better chance against Flash than does Much, or Casy has against Jaedong.
....
Bisu is so much better than Best in every way. H2H small samples shouldn't deceive you into thinking that Best is a good ace option. Fantasy would be better if it wasn't for his recent slump (which he may or may not be out of).
Hindsight or not, he was always a ridiculous choice.
Edit: Previous to this final, BeSt was in the group of TITANS like MUCH, TESTER, M18M, & UPMAGIC (and depending on what games you count that silly little player Jaedong) that had winning records against Flash.
Now he joins the legions who are down a game in their H2H, and he has no claim to fame anymore. He is just a plain old shitty player now.
fantasy is 1-4 against flash in proleague. the last time he played on circuit breaker against a terran was LAST YEAR.
bisu has only beaten slumping/scrub terrans on circuit breaker and lost to tvp god...hiya.
best was 5-1 against flash in proleague prior to the finals, and has beaten flash on circuit breaker.
records dont lie and at least in proleague with his coaches and mates cheering for him, best for some reason has the edge against flash.
bisu was a good choice but best was better. if it was a random map/random event or for instance against oz and obviously jd wouldve been the ace then yeah best wouldve been ridiculous.
If we're going to talk about results on CB, Bisu is 7-1 in PvT and 1-1 against Hiya on that map. As for only playing scrubs, basically there are only 3 players who are consistently strong at TvP and one of them is on Bisu's team.
Best was 1-4 on CB in PvT going into the finals, although his 1 win did come from Flash. [Note: I'm not counting the offline prelim victory over B-teamer Always.]
In regular SPL season play, Best does have a h2h advantage over Flash, but that's the ONLY stat in Best's favor.
dunno about you, but id always go with the guy with the winning record. next best thing wouldve been bisu whos 1-3 against handicapped flash this year and thats bisu playing in peak form.
blame skt1 for letting it get to ace, just like the korean netizen's spl drawing: while skt1 is chock full of gosus, kt has flash 'nuff said.
4 games is hardly a compelling sample. Regardless, I've already written 3000+ words on this issue both before and after the final. I won't reiterate them.
On August 25 2011 01:14 Crisium wrote: I am so pleased that it's harder to get to the PR.
Wait, no I'm not.
At least I know White Ra is the 5th best foreign SC2 player? Is that what it's saying?
OSL Ro8 concludes soon. Let's all keep praying that JangBi can take down the Ultimate Weapon.
Praying to whom? JangBi is playing against God
Pray to the OLD GODS whose names have been forgotten in all but a few eldritch tomes of Starcraft lore.
Giyom, you who are called God From The Time Before Gods in the hallowed pages of the Necrobroodwaricon, I invoke thy spirit! IntoTheRain, Storm King Of The Stars, I call thy thunder! And to the elder Protoss spirit who achieved more success than any in the legendary Colosseum of Ongamenet, to the Emperor Slayer Garimto I say, "Let there be proxies!"
There, better?
in the absence of any other measurable quality that only the coaches themselves have access to (in house rankings). what else is there?
On August 24 2011 12:24 agarangu wrote: Ok, so Flash > SKT. Also, Jaedong > Flash. Therefore Jaedong > SKT, right?
All jokes aside, is there anyone in Oz one who can defeat Bisu? Because Bisu's vZ seemed to be too much for Jaedong in their last encounters, and killer is also a zerg.
Hiya when he's on.
On August 24 2011 13:39 ligas wrote:
On August 24 2011 12:47 SimonB wrote:
On August 24 2011 11:48 ligas wrote:
On August 24 2011 11:14 Caladbolg wrote: Not to beat a dead horse, but I just hoped SKT had prepared ALL 3 of their aces to potentially play the ace match. I'd actually rather have Fantasy up there than Best. Fantasy delivers in clutch situations like no other player. And yes, even Bisu (SKT's WL ace)
everyone has 20/20 hindsight. given how best has consistently performed extremely well against flash in proleague (losing only ONCE prior to the grand finals) id say the managers and coaching staff wouldve been fools had they not chosen best.
regardless of the outcome they made the correct the decision in picking best to snipe flash.
On July 27 2011 04:00 SimonB wrote: I always lol a little bit when I read about Best as an actual rival or opponent against Flash.
6-5 record against Flash, well done, but when Flash has played as many players as he has, statistically that's just going to happen sometimes. Best has little better chance against Flash than does Much, or Casy has against Jaedong.
....
Bisu is so much better than Best in every way. H2H small samples shouldn't deceive you into thinking that Best is a good ace option. Fantasy would be better if it wasn't for his recent slump (which he may or may not be out of).
Hindsight or not, he was always a ridiculous choice.
Edit: Previous to this final, BeSt was in the group of TITANS like MUCH, TESTER, M18M, & UPMAGIC (and depending on what games you count that silly little player Jaedong) that had winning records against Flash.
Now he joins the legions who are down a game in their H2H, and he has no claim to fame anymore. He is just a plain old shitty player now.
fantasy is 1-4 against flash in proleague. the last time he played on circuit breaker against a terran was LAST YEAR.
bisu has only beaten slumping/scrub terrans on circuit breaker and lost to tvp god...hiya.
best was 5-1 against flash in proleague prior to the finals, and has beaten flash on circuit breaker.
records dont lie and at least in proleague with his coaches and mates cheering for him, best for some reason has the edge against flash.
bisu was a good choice but best was better. if it was a random map/random event or for instance against oz and obviously jd wouldve been the ace then yeah best wouldve been ridiculous.
If we're going to talk about results on CB, Bisu is 7-1 in PvT and 1-1 against Hiya on that map. As for only playing scrubs, basically there are only 3 players who are consistently strong at TvP and one of them is on Bisu's team.
Best was 1-4 on CB in PvT going into the finals, although his 1 win did come from Flash. [Note: I'm not counting the offline prelim victory over B-teamer Always.]
In regular SPL season play, Best does have a h2h advantage over Flash, but that's the ONLY stat in Best's favor.
dunno about you, but id always go with the guy with the winning record. next best thing wouldve been bisu whos 1-3 against handicapped flash this year and thats bisu playing in peak form.
blame skt1 for letting it get to ace, just like the korean netizen's spl drawing: while skt1 is chock full of gosus, kt has flash 'nuff said.
4 games is hardly a compelling sample. Regardless, I've already written 3000+ words on this issue both before and after the final. I won't reiterate them.
On August 25 2011 02:28 agarangu wrote:
On August 25 2011 01:14 Crisium wrote: I am so pleased that it's harder to get to the PR.
Wait, no I'm not.
At least I know White Ra is the 5th best foreign SC2 player? Is that what it's saying?
OSL Ro8 concludes soon. Let's all keep praying that JangBi can take down the Ultimate Weapon.
Praying to whom? JangBi is playing against God
Pray to the OLD GODS whose names have been forgotten in all but a few eldritch tomes of Starcraft lore.
Giyom, you who are called God From The Time Before Gods in the hallowed pages of the Necrobroodwaricon, I invoke thy spirit! IntoTheRain, Storm King Of The Stars, I call thy thunder! And to the elder Protoss spirit who achieved more success than any in the legendary Colosseum of Ongamenet, to the Emperor Slayer Garimto I say, "Let there be proxies!"
There, better?
in the absence of any other measurable quality that only the coaches themselves have access to (in house rankings). what else is there?
You could read the thousands of words I've written between this thread and the previous one? Other people have talked about the ace decision a lot as well. Intense speculation was going on basically from the moment KT advanced to the grand final. I'm not going to try to reiterate all of those arguments here.
noooooo why would you remove Power Rank from the main site! buuu
Even though most of TL's users nowadays are here for the SC2 scene i think the power rank on the main page was a way of getting interested in the bw scene as well.
Man what happened to the old mods or owners of TL?
Why do they hate BW so much now, they changed the default TLPD to all SC2 players and now they get rid of the PR... watch the next month a PR of SC2 using 60% of the front page.. lame.
On August 26 2011 01:40 FranzF1 wrote: Man what happened to the old mods or owners of TL?
Why do they hate BW so much now, they changed the default TLPD to all SC2 players and now they get rid of the PR... watch the next month a PR of SC2 using 60% of the front page.. lame.
Most of them are either inactive or into SC2. And so the better game suffers.
aww no old PR I liked that so much and checked it almost every time I came on the site.
I guess it's fine though, I would like it though if there was an easy way to get to power rank without searching. Is there some new easy navigation implemented yet for PR?
Well it's a guarantee that Flash is going to be #1 again since he's going to reverse Jangbang Jangbi. If Bisu rolls Jaedong and Killer in the STX finals then that should cement him at #2
On August 26 2011 14:59 raviy wrote: New PRs better be featured news, otherwise how the hell is anyone going to find them?
Even if it is, people will find it the first week or so, then discussion will die because the comment count won't be visible from the main site anymore (to see if it was updated since you last checked).
Instead we have a liquipedia bar that only searches sc2 liquipedia, something you could already do with the regular TL search (which btw I believe is now also broken for bw liquipedia), and an ELO chart for sc2, which will be a huge spoiler every time the top progamers play a game and pass each other.
Should have moved the PR down on the bar to the bottom or something, not thrown it off completely. I mean, the Poll section is still there and its a lot less useful imo than a PR, and the TSL section is as static as can get. :/
God I can't believe this, SoO was supposed to get roflstomped by killer and everyone would realize he's just overhyped, instead killer gets DQ and he advances to ro4 -______-
On August 27 2011 01:30 swanized wrote: God I can't believe this, SoO was supposed to get roflstomped by killer and everyone would realize he's just overhyped, instead killer gets DQ and he advances to ro4 -______-
On August 27 2011 13:03 SlayerS_BunkiE wrote: where's the power rank?!? just gone for a couple of days vacation and then when i got back, there's no more PR? why oh why did they remove this?
it's nice that a lot of people now go to TL for starcraft stuffs but i hope TL won't kill BW while it still lives in korea.
i know that BW is not gonna stay forever but i'm just hoping that TL would not remove the fun stuffs in BW, like PR, while it is still alive.
On August 27 2011 01:30 swanized wrote: God I can't believe this, SoO was supposed to get roflstomped by killer and everyone would realize he's just overhyped, instead killer gets DQ and he advances to ro4 -______-
oh shit killer got DQed? now I have to read the LR thread
On August 27 2011 01:30 swanized wrote: God I can't believe this, SoO was supposed to get roflstomped by killer and everyone would realize he's just overhyped, instead killer gets DQ and he advances to ro4 -______-
You make it sound like the DQ was the ONLY reason why Soo advanced. Did you forget who won the second game? Stop hating
On August 27 2011 01:30 swanized wrote: God I can't believe this, SoO was supposed to get roflstomped by killer and everyone would realize he's just overhyped, instead killer gets DQ and he advances to ro4 -______-
You make it sound like the DQ was the ONLY reason why Soo advanced. Did you forget who won the second game? Stop hating
You mean when SoO took 15 minutes to barely win with a 9pool speed v a 12 hatch? Yeah.
Flash losing, no comments on almost non-existing PR. Is this the end of TL-BW? This is how much space does BW take on TL now:
Is this just enough or not even nearly enough? Has TL completely turned into SC2 fansite omitting its BW roots and neglecting the still most developed ESPORT ever? You decide.
On August 27 2011 23:03 Fishmalk wrote: Flash lost a BoX and we barely have one page of PR comments. Might as well just end it entirely if it isn't going to be on the front page.
Agree, I was always reading new comments in PR and now I visit it once a week maybe. But I have to watch at some stupid SC2 news I don't really care about. If having PR there is such a big deal, then make FUCKING settings for each visitor. For example, since SC2 calendar is completely useless, streams are completely useless, everything is just so messed up.
On August 28 2011 02:55 rigelq wrote: Also how do you find the PR now? I have to search for it in the search bar, but when i do that i can't see the actual PR.
On August 28 2011 11:57 Dakkas wrote: Ok lets speculate about who will be in the next PR like we always do
Flash is still #1 in my mind Not sure where Bisu will be Stats and Hoejja need to be on the PR as well Possibly Fantasy as well?
I'ld agree Flash gets 1 more #1 spot and then will fall off due to his surgery the next month. Even with the unexpected drop from the RO8 his PL finals performance carries things for me. Bisu can't really move anywhere I don't think. He won his PL finals game, but he certainly can't move up since he wasn't sent out as ace. Bisu pretty much needed to win 2 games 1 of which being over Flash to move up.
Jangbi up a bunch obviously. Stats and Hoejja some low spots for sure.
On August 28 2011 11:57 Dakkas wrote: Ok lets speculate about who will be in the next PR like we always do
Flash is still #1 in my mind Not sure where Bisu will be Stats and Hoejja need to be on the PR as well Possibly Fantasy as well?
I'ld agree Flash gets 1 more #1 spot and then will fall off due to his surgery the next month. Even with the unexpected drop from the RO8 his PL finals performance carries things for me. Bisu can't really move anywhere I don't think. He won his PL finals game, but he certainly can't move up since he wasn't sent out as ace. Bisu pretty much needed to win 2 games 1 of which being over Flash to move up.
Jangbi up a bunch obviously. Stats and Hoejja some low spots for sure.
If JangBi can keep this up and winning the OSL, will he b elevated into number 1?
Hoejja and Stats I'd say are worthy of being around the 6 rank. Stats has been playing very well and even covered his weak vZ again by rolling Soo. Hoejja has simply been very consistent for the past few games as well
Killer takes a fall methinks.
Jangbi deserves a good spot as well, he simply outclassed Flash and as someone pointed out, it was Flash's first BoX loss in yonks. If Jangbi rolls Soo then he should get a top 5 spot.
I'm actually thinking Sun should get a spot as well but I'm probably being biased there
On August 28 2011 11:57 Dakkas wrote: Ok lets speculate about who will be in the next PR like we always do
Flash is still #1 in my mind Not sure where Bisu will be Stats and Hoejja need to be on the PR as well Possibly Fantasy as well?
I'ld agree Flash gets 1 more #1 spot and then will fall off due to his surgery the next month. Even with the unexpected drop from the RO8 his PL finals performance carries things for me. Bisu can't really move anywhere I don't think. He won his PL finals game, but he certainly can't move up since he wasn't sent out as ace. Bisu pretty much needed to win 2 games 1 of which being over Flash to move up.
Jangbi up a bunch obviously. Stats and Hoejja some low spots for sure.
If JangBi can keep this up and winning the OSL, will he b elevated into number 1?
The OSL Semis and Finals will be next month. Perhaps.
JangBi fighting! Haha. I literally dropped to my knees and repeatedly said "Oh my god" when he won. My praying paid off! There is a god, and it's not Flash!
JangBi outplayed Flash. No cheese. Just smart play.
There is one thing that is troubling. I urge you all to listen carefully as we, as a BW community, have to to decide how to react:
n.die_Soo is more than capable of beating JangBi. Hydra will probably clean up Fantasy. And then, ladies and gentlemen, not only do we have a ZvZ finals, but Soo could win in a coin flip. Don't want this travesty to happen? Don't want OSL Champion Soo? Then join me in my prayers for The Almighty JangBi.
On August 27 2011 01:30 swanized wrote: God I can't believe this, SoO was supposed to get roflstomped by killer and everyone would realize he's just overhyped, instead killer gets DQ and he advances to ro4 -______-
You make it sound like the DQ was the ONLY reason why Soo advanced. Did you forget who won the second game? Stop hating
I indeed make it sound like the DQ was the only reason why SoO advanced because soO's not at killer's level and I believe that he cannot take a bo3 from killer under normal circumstances.
On August 27 2011 01:30 swanized wrote: God I can't believe this, SoO was supposed to get roflstomped by killer and everyone would realize he's just overhyped, instead killer gets DQ and he advances to ro4 -______-
You make it sound like the DQ was the ONLY reason why Soo advanced. Did you forget who won the second game? Stop hating
I indeed make it sound like the DQ was the only reason why SoO advanced because soO's not at killer's level and I believe that he cannot take a bo3 from killer under normal circumstances.
Maybe, or he could forget to build a sunken and die to 1 base ling allin again. Shrug, I don't think you can safely say Killer would have won that set too.
Personally I'm not an SKT fan, I'm actually pretty happy that Killer is stepping up these days and wanted him to advance, but I don't think SoO deserves the hate. He has done decently in SPL, I wouldn't say he doesn't deserve to be in the Ro4, plus it's kind of interesting that we could have another Royal Roader.
We'll see how he fares against JangBi ^^
Next month's gonna be tough to call, losses vs lack of games, >< Jaedong...
soo actually has a really good record this year. 63% for the year, 78% since april. and that's against a pretty good ratio of each race and vs some good players.
On August 25 2011 01:14 Crisium wrote: I am so pleased that it's harder to get to the PR.
Wait, no I'm not.
At least I know White Ra is the 5th best foreign SC2 player? Is that what it's saying?
OSL Ro8 concludes soon. Let's all keep praying that JangBi can take down the Ultimate Weapon.
Praying to whom? JangBi is playing against God
Pray to the OLD GODS whose names have been forgotten in all but a few eldritch tomes of Starcraft lore.
Giyom, you who are called God From The Time Before Gods in the hallowed pages of the Necrobroodwaricon, I invoke thy spirit! IntoTheRain, Storm King Of The Stars, I call thy thunder! And to the elder Protoss spirit who achieved more success than any in the legendary Colosseum of Ongamenet, to the Emperor Slayer Garimto I say, "Let there be proxies!"
There, better?
Wait, so this worked? Poor Flash. I sicked 3 gods on him and now he's eliminated.
On August 27 2011 01:30 swanized wrote: God I can't believe this, SoO was supposed to get roflstomped by killer and everyone would realize he's just overhyped, instead killer gets DQ and he advances to ro4 -______-
You make it sound like the DQ was the ONLY reason why Soo advanced. Did you forget who won the second game? Stop hating
I think I'm going to merge August and September, though if I find some time on Wednesday I might be able to write something. These next few months are going to be in the doldrums anyway as far as game quantity is concerned.
I think there are just enough games to do September PR (aka August results).
Here's my food for thought.
1. Flash Flash goes 2-0 in the SPL finals, securing his teams second consecutive championship. A hard fought 1-2 loss to JangBi ends his current OSL run, but Flash proved he is still the best this month. 2. Fantasy Fantasy continues his perfect OSL run as he looks for back-to-back golds. Hyuk is not a top contender, but we can no longer punish Fantasy for things beyond his control such as teamkills. Fantasy, however, was definitely in control of his SPL finals game, stopping Perfective's early (2-base?) mutas. 3. JangBi I considered JB for #2, but he still has to redeem his proleague playoff losses to Zergs. There are even many people that consider Soo to be the favourite in their Ro4 match. JangBi will have to prove himself in September. Btw, he beat Flash in a BoX. 4. Hydra Hydra continues to prove that he'll never lose a ZvZ BoX. With Flash fallen, there are many that consider Hydra to be the best contender for OSL champ this season. He once again makes an individual league semi-final appearance. 5. Stats Stats was a monster in the regular season, and pulled it together in the finals with a much needed win over ZvP sniper Soo. It's a shame we won't be seeing him again until the SPL season starts up, but has proven to be a top toss. 6. Bisu Bisu continues to prove that he can beat a Zerg on the highest stage. 7. n.Die_soO Soo advanced from the OSL Ro8 with a narrow 21-1 victory over Killer. He lost to Stats in the SPL finals, so him maintaining the #7 rank (I almost put Hoejja here) is a generous acknowledgement that this guy may actually make an OSL final. Though JangBi will have something to say about that. 8. HoeJJa More than anyone, this guy changed the momentum of the SPL finals. Down 2-0, Hoejja proved he can win a clutch ZvZ. He has had a hot record for a number of months now, so kudos to Hoejja. 9. By.Sun How did he beat Action again? I'm still not clear on that one, but his victory made SKT fans salivate at the thoughts of a Championship. Not to be outdone by Flash, Sun then all-kills Oz in the STX Masters Cup finals. This guy is in great position to be a top toss next SPL season. 10. Jaedong Why JD and not Killer? Surely 3-4 beats 1-2? (including STXMC) Na. Killer would have gotten this spot if he didn't press pause. But when it comes down to it, I thought Jaedong played better against Sun in the MC Finals. Yeah, the lack of games this month makes me decide who lost better. JD's muta tech switch could have been a genius move, but it wasn't. JD, we can't remove you from the PR yet, no sir. CBNC: Shoutout: ZerO, EffOrt (he's back!)
No ZerO because he didn't play this month. I don't consider it punishment in this case. It's simply that he was ineligible for the PR. I'm sure he will tear up the MSL Ro32 in October and the SPL when it resumes, but until he plays a game he can't make the PR. The PR is the legacy of players that made an impact in that month, and ZerO didn't even place his fingerprint on a keyboard this month, sorry.
Killer should be #10, shouldn't he. My logic doesn't even make sense to me =\. But I think not having a PR just so that JD's streak doesn't end is not a good idea. But who knows if he deserves to make the top 10 (up to you Mr. Flamewheel).
On August 30 2011 03:41 Crisium wrote: I think there are just enough games to do September PR (aka August results).
Here's my food for thought.
1. Flash Flash goes 2-0 in the SPL finals, securing his teams second consecutive championship. A hard fought 1-2 loss to JangBi ends his current OSL run, but Flash proved he is still the best this month. 2. Fantasy Fantasy continues his perfect OSL run as he looks for back-to-back golds. Hyuk is not a top contender, but we can no longer punish Fantasy for things beyond his control such as teamkills. Fantasy, however, was definitely in control of his SPL finals game, stopping Perfective's early (2-base?) mutas. 3. JangBi I considered JB for #2, but he still has to redeem his proleague playoff losses to Zergs. There are even many people that consider Soo to be the favourite in their Ro4 match. JangBi will have to prove himself in September. Btw, he beat Flash in a BoX. 4. Hydra Hydra continues to prove that he'll never lose a ZvZ BoX. With Flash fallen, there are many that consider Hydra to be the best contender for OSL champ this season. He once again makes an individual league semi-final appearance. 5. Stats Stats was a monster in the regular season, and pulled it together in the finals with a much needed win over ZvP sniper Soo. It's a shame we won't be seeing him again until the SPL season starts up, but has proven to be a top toss. 6. Bisu Bisu continues to prove that he can beat a Zerg on the highest stage. 7. n.Die_soO Soo advanced from the OSL Ro8 with a narrow 21-1 victory over Killer. He lost to Stats in the SPL finals, so him maintaining the #7 rank (I almost put Hoejja here) is a generous acknowledgement that this guy may actually make an OSL final. Though JangBi will have something to say about that. 8. HoeJJa More than anyone, this guy changed the momentum of the SPL finals. Down 2-0, Hoejja proved he can win a clutch ZvZ. He has had a hot record for a number of months now, so kudos to Hoejja. 9. By.Sun How did he beat Action again? I'm still not clear on that one, but his victory made SKT fans salivate at the thoughts of a Championship. Not to be outdone by Flash, Sun then all-kills Oz in the STX Masters Cup finals. This guy is in great position to be a top toss next SPL season. 10. Jaedong Why JD and not Killer? Surely 3-4 beats 1-2? (including STXMC) Na. Killer would have gotten this spot if he didn't press pause. But when it comes down to it, I thought Jaedong played better against Sun in the MC Finals. Yeah, the lack of games this month makes me decide who lost better. JD's muta tech switch could have been a genius move, but it wasn't. JD, we can't remove you from the PR yet, no sir. CBNC: Shoutout: ZerO, EffOrt (he's back!)
No ZerO because he didn't play this month. I don't consider it punishment in this case. It's simply that he was ineligible for the PR. I'm sure he will tear up the MSL Ro32 in October and the SPL when it resumes, but until he plays a game he can't make the PR. The PR is the legacy of players that made an impact in that month, and ZerO didn't even place his fingerprint on a keyboard this month, sorry.
Killer should be #10, shouldn't he. My logic doesn't even make sense to me =\. But I think not having a PR just so that JD's streak doesn't end is not a good idea. But who knows if he deserves to make the top 10 (up to you Mr. Flamewheel).
2 Terran at top and rest P and Z. Almost reminds me of kespa ranking.
And Jaedong played horribly. Anyone with half a sense would not try to cannon break while high templars are ready with storm. Killer didn't play quite so greedy or stubborn as JD, but nonetheless badly. I miss the days when shine actually did 5/6 hatch hydra successfully.
On August 30 2011 03:41 Crisium wrote: I think there are just enough games to do September PR (aka August results).
Here's my food for thought.
1. Flash Flash goes 2-0 in the SPL finals, securing his teams second consecutive championship. A hard fought 1-2 loss to JangBi ends his current OSL run, but Flash proved he is still the best this month. 2. Fantasy Fantasy continues his perfect OSL run as he looks for back-to-back golds. Hyuk is not a top contender, but we can no longer punish Fantasy for things beyond his control such as teamkills. Fantasy, however, was definitely in control of his SPL finals game, stopping Perfective's early (2-base?) mutas. 3. JangBi I considered JB for #2, but he still has to redeem his proleague playoff losses to Zergs. There are even many people that consider Soo to be the favourite in their Ro4 match. JangBi will have to prove himself in September. Btw, he beat Flash in a BoX. 4. Hydra Hydra continues to prove that he'll never lose a ZvZ BoX. With Flash fallen, there are many that consider Hydra to be the best contender for OSL champ this season. He once again makes an individual league semi-final appearance. 5. Stats Stats was a monster in the regular season, and pulled it together in the finals with a much needed win over ZvP sniper Soo. It's a shame we won't be seeing him again until the SPL season starts up, but has proven to be a top toss. 6. Bisu Bisu continues to prove that he can beat a Zerg on the highest stage. 7. n.Die_soO Soo advanced from the OSL Ro8 with a narrow 21-1 victory over Killer. He lost to Stats in the SPL finals, so him maintaining the #7 rank (I almost put Hoejja here) is a generous acknowledgement that this guy may actually make an OSL final. Though JangBi will have something to say about that. 8. HoeJJa More than anyone, this guy changed the momentum of the SPL finals. Down 2-0, Hoejja proved he can win a clutch ZvZ. He has had a hot record for a number of months now, so kudos to Hoejja. 9. By.Sun How did he beat Action again? I'm still not clear on that one, but his victory made SKT fans salivate at the thoughts of a Championship. Not to be outdone by Flash, Sun then all-kills Oz in the STX Masters Cup finals. This guy is in great position to be a top toss next SPL season. 10. Jaedong Why JD and not Killer? Surely 3-4 beats 1-2? (including STXMC) Na. Killer would have gotten this spot if he didn't press pause. But when it comes down to it, I thought Jaedong played better against Sun in the MC Finals. Yeah, the lack of games this month makes me decide who lost better. JD's muta tech switch could have been a genius move, but it wasn't. JD, we can't remove you from the PR yet, no sir. CBNC: Shoutout: ZerO, EffOrt (he's back!)
No ZerO because he didn't play this month. I don't consider it punishment in this case. It's simply that he was ineligible for the PR. I'm sure he will tear up the MSL Ro32 in October and the SPL when it resumes, but until he plays a game he can't make the PR. The PR is the legacy of players that made an impact in that month, and ZerO didn't even place his fingerprint on a keyboard this month, sorry.
Killer should be #10, shouldn't he. My logic doesn't even make sense to me =\. But I think not having a PR just so that JD's streak doesn't end is not a good idea. But who knows if he deserves to make the top 10 (up to you Mr. Flamewheel).
looks pretty good, i'm liking the fact that you keep jaedong on just coz he's jaedong
I think By.Sun should be higher than 9. All killing Oz deserves more credit, especially since he plowed through Jaedong, Killer (who's definitely at or near his peak), and HiyA (who has always been a great asset in winner's league formats).
On August 30 2011 03:41 Crisium wrote: I think there are just enough games to do September PR (aka August results).
Here's my food for thought.
1. Flash Flash goes 2-0 in the SPL finals, securing his teams second consecutive championship. A hard fought 1-2 loss to JangBi ends his current OSL run, but Flash proved he is still the best this month. 2. Fantasy Fantasy continues his perfect OSL run as he looks for back-to-back golds. Hyuk is not a top contender, but we can no longer punish Fantasy for things beyond his control such as teamkills. Fantasy, however, was definitely in control of his SPL finals game, stopping Perfective's early (2-base?) mutas. 3. JangBi I considered JB for #2, but he still has to redeem his proleague playoff losses to Zergs. There are even many people that consider Soo to be the favourite in their Ro4 match. JangBi will have to prove himself in September. Btw, he beat Flash in a BoX. 4. Hydra Hydra continues to prove that he'll never lose a ZvZ BoX. With Flash fallen, there are many that consider Hydra to be the best contender for OSL champ this season. He once again makes an individual league semi-final appearance. 5. Stats Stats was a monster in the regular season, and pulled it together in the finals with a much needed win over ZvP sniper Soo. It's a shame we won't be seeing him again until the SPL season starts up, but has proven to be a top toss. 6. Bisu Bisu continues to prove that he can beat a Zerg on the highest stage. 7. n.Die_soO Soo advanced from the OSL Ro8 with a narrow 21-1 victory over Killer. He lost to Stats in the SPL finals, so him maintaining the #7 rank (I almost put Hoejja here) is a generous acknowledgement that this guy may actually make an OSL final. Though JangBi will have something to say about that. 8. HoeJJa More than anyone, this guy changed the momentum of the SPL finals. Down 2-0, Hoejja proved he can win a clutch ZvZ. He has had a hot record for a number of months now, so kudos to Hoejja. 9. By.Sun How did he beat Action again? I'm still not clear on that one, but his victory made SKT fans salivate at the thoughts of a Championship. Not to be outdone by Flash, Sun then all-kills Oz in the STX Masters Cup finals. This guy is in great position to be a top toss next SPL season. 10. Jaedong Why JD and not Killer? Surely 3-4 beats 1-2? (including STXMC) Na. Killer would have gotten this spot if he didn't press pause. But when it comes down to it, I thought Jaedong played better against Sun in the MC Finals. Yeah, the lack of games this month makes me decide who lost better. JD's muta tech switch could have been a genius move, but it wasn't. JD, we can't remove you from the PR yet, no sir. CBNC: Shoutout: ZerO, EffOrt (he's back!)
No ZerO because he didn't play this month. I don't consider it punishment in this case. It's simply that he was ineligible for the PR. I'm sure he will tear up the MSL Ro32 in October and the SPL when it resumes, but until he plays a game he can't make the PR. The PR is the legacy of players that made an impact in that month, and ZerO didn't even place his fingerprint on a keyboard this month, sorry.
Killer should be #10, shouldn't he. My logic doesn't even make sense to me =\. But I think not having a PR just so that JD's streak doesn't end is not a good idea. But who knows if he deserves to make the top 10 (up to you Mr. Flamewheel).
looks pretty good, i'm liking the fact that you keep jaedong on just coz he's jaedong
I've never liked "i kept xxx on PR because he is xxx (even though he didn't accomplish crap)" it's happened to bisu a once that i remember (he was 5 i think), and has kept less recognized player out of the PR.
On August 30 2011 03:41 Crisium wrote: I think there are just enough games to do September PR (aka August results).
Here's my food for thought.
1. Flash Flash goes 2-0 in the SPL finals, securing his teams second consecutive championship. A hard fought 1-2 loss to JangBi ends his current OSL run, but Flash proved he is still the best this month. 2. Fantasy Fantasy continues his perfect OSL run as he looks for back-to-back golds. Hyuk is not a top contender, but we can no longer punish Fantasy for things beyond his control such as teamkills. Fantasy, however, was definitely in control of his SPL finals game, stopping Perfective's early (2-base?) mutas. 3. JangBi I considered JB for #2, but he still has to redeem his proleague playoff losses to Zergs. There are even many people that consider Soo to be the favourite in their Ro4 match. JangBi will have to prove himself in September. Btw, he beat Flash in a BoX. 4. Hydra Hydra continues to prove that he'll never lose a ZvZ BoX. With Flash fallen, there are many that consider Hydra to be the best contender for OSL champ this season. He once again makes an individual league semi-final appearance. 5. Stats Stats was a monster in the regular season, and pulled it together in the finals with a much needed win over ZvP sniper Soo. It's a shame we won't be seeing him again until the SPL season starts up, but has proven to be a top toss. 6. Bisu Bisu continues to prove that he can beat a Zerg on the highest stage. 7. n.Die_soO Soo advanced from the OSL Ro8 with a narrow 21-1 victory over Killer. He lost to Stats in the SPL finals, so him maintaining the #7 rank (I almost put Hoejja here) is a generous acknowledgement that this guy may actually make an OSL final. Though JangBi will have something to say about that. 8. HoeJJa More than anyone, this guy changed the momentum of the SPL finals. Down 2-0, Hoejja proved he can win a clutch ZvZ. He has had a hot record for a number of months now, so kudos to Hoejja. 9. By.Sun How did he beat Action again? I'm still not clear on that one, but his victory made SKT fans salivate at the thoughts of a Championship. Not to be outdone by Flash, Sun then all-kills Oz in the STX Masters Cup finals. This guy is in great position to be a top toss next SPL season. 10. Jaedong Why JD and not Killer? Surely 3-4 beats 1-2? (including STXMC) Na. Killer would have gotten this spot if he didn't press pause. But when it comes down to it, I thought Jaedong played better against Sun in the MC Finals. Yeah, the lack of games this month makes me decide who lost better. JD's muta tech switch could have been a genius move, but it wasn't. JD, we can't remove you from the PR yet, no sir. CBNC: Shoutout: ZerO, EffOrt (he's back!)
No ZerO because he didn't play this month. I don't consider it punishment in this case. It's simply that he was ineligible for the PR. I'm sure he will tear up the MSL Ro32 in October and the SPL when it resumes, but until he plays a game he can't make the PR. The PR is the legacy of players that made an impact in that month, and ZerO didn't even place his fingerprint on a keyboard this month, sorry.
Killer should be #10, shouldn't he. My logic doesn't even make sense to me =\. But I think not having a PR just so that JD's streak doesn't end is not a good idea. But who knows if he deserves to make the top 10 (up to you Mr. Flamewheel).
This list is far too chaotic for my tastes. Although it might reflect the past month's results accurately, it is a poor reflection of the state of Starcraft as a whole. Which, I think, emphasizes the point that waiting for more data rather than trying to toss together a new ranking ad hoc just because we've flipped a page on the calendar might be a wise decision. If we're so fucking desperate for a new PR just because the month has changed, I'd be happier if we play copypasta with the KeSPA ranking -- which would be infinitely better than By.Sun being called "more powerful" than Zero.
Again, it's all how you interpret things. ZerO is my favourite Zerg ever, but no games is no games. I too have traditionally viewed the PR as who had more "power" that month (hence the name, of course). But what's wrong wrong with a little change from lost month (not chaotic imo)? Here's my thoughts: if we wait another month, then we are stuck with our current ranking for another 30+ days. There's no reflection of an entire month's play there. Stats, Hoejja, By.Sun, JangBi... they made names for themselves and deserve their credit.
I mean, ZerO did not show any power last month because he didn't play. What can you say? Ultimately more than anything, I view the PR as a time capsule. A year from now or whenever, if you feel like taking a look at who was making names for themselves in August 2011, you'd look at the September PR. And ZerO should not be there because he did nothing. I know there's no rule of a PR every month, but that's what it really is. And guess what, if you wait until the end of September, are you gonna see ZerO make the list? No, because he's not playing any games in September either.
The monthly nature is what separates the PR from ELO and Kespa (Kespa is monthly, but different of course). I want that time capsule feeling, and seeing ZerO there just messes it up. Now, if someone views the September 2011 Kespa rank for posterity's sake, then they see ZerO in the top 5. That gets them the reflection of the state of Starcraft as a whole. The PR has to be more focused; more limited in scope. Kespa tells me who is hot in any particular month and the 11 preceding - I'd rather PR tell me who is hot just in one particular month (albeit with recent results padding the "benefit of the doubt" ranking).
Now if you wait another 30 days, what's really gonna change? What's this "waiting for more data" you speak of? You'd simply see a month with only 9-15 games with Fantasy, Hydra, and JangBi ordered slightly differently based on whoever won the OSL. Either way they are #2-#4, imho. Let's just put out a ranking now. Embrace the volatility of August. September will have very few games played, and that's the month to skip. After October, we can throw together the OSL semis+ final (only 9-15 games) with the MSL Ro32 and the beginning of proleague. I dunno, that's what makes sense to me.
Now since only Fantasy, Hydra, and JangBi will likely change between now and 30 days, you could simply keep the current and wait 'til then (just make sure you carefully remember the exploits of August). But... after the "PR removed from front-page" fiasco, the PR needs to act and show that it's still alive and kicking. A month off right now is not good for its image, imo.
Now my 10 players isn't the 10 it has to be, but I don't think it's too chaotic considering these guys all made names for themselves in the proleague finals and/or STXMC and/or OSL Ro8. It's simply what happened.
The monthly nature is what separates KeSPA from PR -- KeSPA appears monthly and it makes sense to do it monthly since 12 months of data are considered anyhow. If no games are played, no games are played.
But PR is supposed to be a representation of the state of Broodwar right now. And you're going to take a month in which almost no games are played and say that's an accurate representation of the state of Broodwar? Really, you want to talk about the image of the ranking when you're willing to put up a ranking that lacks credibility? That won't revive the PR; that will bury it! We're not going to match the SC2 side in activity or favorability. The admins have all but said "fuck you" to BW. But we can surpass SC2 in quality. The SC2 forum is drowning in idiots and newbs who don't even know that there is such a thing as the TL Commandments. So long as we have quality there is a point to sticking around.
If we're going to release a ranking with such a small data set, then the only option is to reduce the emphasis on this past month's games in order to capture the bigger picture. Comparing, for example, Zero with By.Sun, Zero is better in every category. Statistics, league tournament advancement, skill, impact he has made on BW. Carrying a team on his fucking back. Sun has played... a couple nice games when his team sent him out? And the only reason he even played this month is that his team was seeded, which to be brutally honest had nothing to do with his performance. He's a developing talent, surely, but trying to argue someone who barely makes a spot in the PL line-up goes above the player who was #2 on the last PR and has not lost a match since then (even if he hasn't played -- most players haven't played either because it's off-season right now) is laughable.
A trash ranking might as well not even exist. There is no point to trash. Not when we have ELO, which is semi-reliable. If there's no quality left in BW then why stay?
Thanks for hating my opinion so much... ha! I don't think telling the community that By.Sun made a bigger splash and impressed people more than ZerO in August is "no quality left in Broodwar". I think it's fact.
About ZerO:
ZerO's current superior standing (which you are correct in) is nicely reflected in Kespa and ELO where he is, rightfully so, many, many, miles ahead of By.Sun. Like, light-years ahead of him. Let the PR be something different! Are you not a believer of my time capsule theory? Look back from the future on August, and be reminded that By.Sun did something (imo, something more important than only 8 of his peers). ZerO did absolutely nothing. Looking back at the September Kespa rank will tell you ZerO is one of the top 5 players. Let the PR be something different. Otherwise, let's just end it.
"I'd be happier if we play copypasta with the KeSPA ranking". That's heresy. I always liked the balance between ELO, Kespa, and PR in determine how good players are at any given time. Let ELO and Kespa inform the fanbase that ZerO is indeed a top tier player right now. Let PR tell you that By.Sun made a bigger impact in August. Because he did. By.Sun affected the Broodwar scene in August infinitely more than ZerO. Hell yeah he should be ranked higher. Let the PR be a monthly who did what list. And before someone reacts with "just compile a win/loss statistics" I am not advocating that (or else 1-0 Stats, Bisu, Hoejja would be below 5-0 By.Sun). But if the PR isn't gonna be more focused on one-month than Kespa... then let's just end it now.
tl;dr: Someone asks "Who are the 10 best players in Broodwar right now?" you point them to Kespa and ELO where ZerO is ma bonjwa incarnate. PR only partially answers that question. PR also answers "Who kicked ass and took names this past month?" or "Who has been hot recently (roughly 30 days)". And if you're gonna tell me ZerO kicked more ass than By.Sun in the past 30-odd days, then I'm gonna kick your ass.
Aye, that be technically true. But the current PR was created on August 11th and results are only counted once. Thus the next PR will not have any games for ZerO.
I little more conservative ranking. (although I'm not quite convinced there is really enough data)
Flash. Flash completely demolished Best in the SPL finals. Twice. He similarly ran over Jangbi on the first day of the OSL Ro8. His play against Jangbi on the second OSL Ro8 day was completely lackluster. Yet I don't think there is any other place for flash this month than #1.
Bisu Bisu only played one game this month. This makes it hard to place him. He won his game in the SPL final convincingly, but then again it was against crazy hydra. There is little to fault Bisu, so dropping him spots is not really fair. The only reason he climbs a spot is the lackluster preformance of zero.
Hydra Hydra qualified for star league semis yet again. He probably is one of the favorites to win the OSL.
ZerO Zero went 1-1 in the STX masters winning against Shy and losing to Killer. This doesn't seem worthy of the PR #2 spot he occupied last month.
Fantasy Fantasy is on a roll. His currently ridding an 8 game winning streak. He ran over Hyuk on his way to the OSL semis and his strong defense against perfective put SKT in an early lead in the SPL finals. (There might be a case for placing him #4 as well)
Jaedong Jaedong continues to drop in the PR. His 1-2 record in the STX masters is not worthy of the Tyrant. Still the name Jaedong alone still is enough to make is opponents pee their pants a little.
JangBi Jangbi played 2 very good well-prepared games against Flash. Is this enough for us to forget his recent flackiness? Probably not. Enough for a low rank on the PR? Certainly.
Killer Not sure what to make of Killer this month. A 5-3 score plus a DQ for not typing "pp". His play in the games he's won was excellent. Even in the last OSL game he made a long stand after a BO disadvantage.
SoO Yes SoO advanced to the OSL semis. Did he do so in a convincing fashion? Not really. That and is complete chock in the SPL finals costing SKT the match, puts him below killer.
By.Sun By.Sun has been totally clutch for SKT, winning a crucial game in the SPL finals against action, and All killing Oz for the STX masters final. Certainly enough for a #10
On August 30 2011 15:41 Crisium wrote: Aye, that be technically true. But the current PR was created on August 11th and results are only counted once. Thus the next PR will not have any games for ZerO.
Dont make up arbitrary rules.
Anyway, with the number of games played this month it would be stupid to artificially handicap the ranking even more by not counting the early august games.
Those are the rules as they always have been - I did not arbitrate them. Mind your attitude. You do not count games twice. PR's are rarely from the 1st to the 30th of each month. The next PR begins when the previous ended. The previous ended on August 11th. ZerO's games do not count. Nothing wrong with your ranking mate, just keep that in mind.
On the earlier discussion, imo the original BeSt v Flash game on Fortress in PL should have been evidence enough to not send him out twice. Especially on that map again. There's a reason he's 44th on Kespa rank. His PvT is one-dimensional and any different situation other than the completely standard macro game disrupts it. Fortress is awful for it, he was bound to lose that. At least have something special planned for that game if he's simply sent to lose, because standard he won't ever win on there - flat map, short push distance, exactly what you don't want.
So onto the Ace anyway, a prepared Fantasy would be the best option if Bisu thinks he can't do it. The plan was simply hope Flash does the same as the previous games? He went so quickly up to 4 bases and beat him easily at his own macro style, it was so obvious what was going to happen when it was equal bases for so long. I feel at least Bisu would have bought some special quality that we know he's capable of to the match. Wouldn't have been taking mine hits for no reason in the middle of the map either. A well prepared Fantasy would have been my choice though probably, he can beat anyone on his day.
On August 30 2011 16:52 Crisium wrote: Those are the rules as they always have been - I did not arbitrate them. Mind your attitude. You do not count games twice. PR's are rarely from the 1st to the 30th of each month. The next PR begins when the previous ended. The previous ended on August 11th. ZerO's games do not count. Nothing wrong with your ranking mate, just keep that in mind.
The PR never has been a strictly month by month thing. Games from previous months have always affected the ranking to some degree.
If you are going to be arbitrarily strict about it, then there is even less reason not to take august and september together, because the rank of september would be bases of just two (very slow) weeks.
On August 30 2011 14:44 Crisium wrote: Thanks for hating my opinion so much... ha! I don't think telling the community that By.Sun made a bigger splash and impressed people more than ZerO in August is "no quality left in Broodwar". I think it's fact.
About ZerO:
ZerO's current superior standing (which you are correct in) is nicely reflected in Kespa and ELO where he is, rightfully so, many, many, miles ahead of By.Sun. Like, light-years ahead of him. Let the PR be something different! Are you not a believer of my time capsule theory? Look back from the future on August, and be reminded that By.Sun did something (imo, something more important than only 8 of his peers). ZerO did absolutely nothing. Looking back at the September Kespa rank will tell you ZerO is one of the top 5 players. Let the PR be something different. Otherwise, let's just end it.
"I'd be happier if we play copypasta with the KeSPA ranking". That's heresy. I always liked the balance between ELO, Kespa, and PR in determine how good players are at any given time. Let ELO and Kespa inform the fanbase that ZerO is indeed a top tier player right now. Let PR tell you that By.Sun made a bigger impact in August. Because he did. By.Sun affected the Broodwar scene in August infinitely more than ZerO. Hell yeah he should be ranked higher. Let the PR be a monthly who did what list. And before someone reacts with "just compile a win/loss statistics" I am not advocating that (or else 1-0 Stats, Bisu, Hoejja would be below 5-0 By.Sun). But if the PR isn't gonna be more focused on one-month than Kespa... then let's just end it now.
tl;dr: Someone asks "Who are the 10 best players in Broodwar right now?" you point them to Kespa and ELO where ZerO is ma bonjwa incarnate. PR only partially answers that question. PR also answers "Who kicked ass and took names this past month?" or "Who has been hot recently (roughly 30 days)". And if you're gonna tell me ZerO kicked more ass than By.Sun in the past 30-odd days, then I'm gonna kick your ass.
You have totally got the wrong idea of what PR is, and always has been. It's NEVER EVER EVER been a "one month only" ranking. The most recent month is weighted most heavily, but is NEVER the only thing considered. I have pointed out many, MANY times over the course of the past few YEARS the fallacy in that kind of thinking and the pointlessness of such a ranking. And the PR writers never listen to that kind of person anyway.
Existing precedent for this was set all the way back in early 2007, when PR was first being started. Don't act like I'm the one trying to "change" PR when it's you.
KeSPA ranking is an accomplishments ranking, which is something completely different. Of course accomplishments factor into "power" but a player can have a lot of power without having accomplished particularly much. ELO compares the statistical results of different players (lifetime) but it takes some time to adjust to new data (amount of time depending on quantity of data) and it weights all results evenly. Power Rank attempts to not only find a balance between statistics and accomplishments, but to add in subjective qualities as well. Maybe Zerg player A got eliminated early from the tournament but he was eliminated by Light. Maybe Bisu loses group of death, but let's face it: either Flash, JD, or Bisu was being sent home. Maybe player A just had bad luck against player B. Power Rank takes all of this into account.
PR always has been something different, in case you haven't been paying attention.
And if you want to kick my ass? Come. I am in a very violent mood right now.
"One month only" those words were never typed by myself. Have you overlooked where I said previous months still count for benefit of the doubt, again, why else would I advocate By.Sun being below Bisu when he went 5-0 rather than 1-0?
I'm saying that ZerO is an exception. Playing 0 games simply makes him ineligible. Is that the worst thing in the world, if he sits out one PR because he's not playing games? Is there precedent for this (besides Yellow #2 and Power Outage tributes)? Has a player ever played 0 games and made the PR? How can you rank him?
"Power Rank attempts to not only find a balance between statistics and accomplishments, but to add in subjective qualities as well."
He has no statistics to offer since he was last judged. He has accomplished nothing since his rank was last determined. No one has seen him play since last evaluation, so how could he be subjectively assessed? Leaving him off the PR isn't saying that ZerO's skilled have diminished below 10 of his peers. It's saying that we can't properly gauge his power right now, because we haven't seen him.
I suspect if I threw ZerO in the top 5 in my food for thought ranking, you'd think it was fine. Maybe if I also lowered Fantasy, JangBi, and Stats a rank or two would also help. It's really not that radical, and it not limited in scope to only 30 days - anything earlier is considered strongly which is why I don't want By.Sun in the top 5. In fact, Stats being so high is a tribute that this guy had the 4th best SPL record (I think) but has seen virtually no PR treatment all season. But he deserved it with a clutch win in the grand finals that backed up his strong record. My ass I said "30 days only". I said it needs to be more focused on one month than copy/paste Kespa ranking.
But, the exception is that if you don't play at all, whatsoever, since the last ranking, then you are simply ineligible. It would trouble me to see By.Sun in the CBNC and to see ZerO push him out of the top 10 when the latter did nothing. Let the PR forget him for a month because everyone who watched professional Broodwar certainly didn't have any eyes on ZerO.
Fine. Put ZerO on the PR. Sorry. Just don't get the idea that I only want the past 30 days and nothing more to matter. I like to do my faux PR ranking based on how I "feel" about the power of players when I watch them (in which past results are not forgotten), and I could not watch ZerO and feel his power, so logically (to me) he simply skips a PR. But the precedent is to keep them around the same spot. So I guess Flamewheel will have to put ZerO on the list, but good luck figuring out which players he deserves to be ranked over, I don't want that job whether it's now or in 30 days.
Power Rank is a reflection of the state of Broodwar right now. Forgetting Zero who is at the top of the charts in every single category (including most recent games played) would be that big of a travesty, yes.
Look, if a player doesn't play because he was dropped to B-team that's different. Similarly, when Flash is out from his surgery he will be removed from the ranking because he will not be playing, period. (There's no guarantee Flash will still be able to play BW after his surgery. Our thoughts will be with him.) This past month players weren't in games were not necessarily off the rank due to poor play. Zero + Bogus + Soulkey, etc, deserve consideration even though they didn't play. Which is where things get ugly.
A ranking released right now would have to weight games in July the same as games in August. Acknowledge the fact that few games have been played and deal with it accordingly.
As for one month only, that's in reference to this passage: "Let PR tell you that By.Sun made a bigger impact in August. Because he did. By.Sun affected the Broodwar scene in August infinitely more than ZerO. Hell yeah he should be ranked higher. Let the PR be a monthly who did what list."
I'm saying that if Sun could be said to have affected BW countably infinitely more in August, Zero's power could be said to have been uncountably greater coming into August. That's my point. It's not an accurate reflection of the state of Starcraft right now. If a month goes by and only 1 and exactly 1 game is played, would that make the winner of that game the most powerful player in the world? No fucking way. In the end, 1 game is just 1 game. What we have to consider is "how has what we seen recently changed our impression of the way things are?" A different problem entirely. And one that addresses the state of Starcraft.
Speaking of Bogus, I guess I overlooked his STX Cup games. I didn't see them, but if he kept up his mostly good play then he should make the list again.
And regardless of if ZerO is ahead of him, By.Sun still deserves a top 10 treatment - even if #10.
What are your thoughts on Jaedong? Besides his stellar ZvT, his play hasn't been nearly what it used to be. #10 might be harsh, but I don't think he deserves to make the top 6. The current 4 ahead of him plus Fantasy and JangBi are a given to be ranked higher than him, and you could definitely make a case for a number of other players. JD's power is definitely waning.
It is. He's hard to rate because you know at any moment he can go S-class wtf!pwn mode. But the reality is that outside of ZvT he's not really such a studmuffin anymore. It's hard to identify exactly what is wrong with his ZvZ right now and he's still highly rated by ELO... but he's been steadily declining all year, down more than 150 points total. Although it's his ZvP right now that I'm thinking more about. He's actually #1vP by ELO, 1 point ahead of Flash and 6 points ahead of Fantasy (which is nothing -- they are effectively at the same rating), but look at his results: 11-9 so far this year. And a lot of those wins were comeback situations. The problem for Jaedong here is that his ZvP execution ability is totally on a different level than anybody else, but his strategy is in need of a revamp.
Honestly, I'd be tempted to drop Soo to CBNC. Yes he advanced in OSL, but 1 win by DQ and then 1 win where he was BARELY able to overcome Killer with a 9 pool v 12 hat BO advantage is lame. And he of course lost to was totally curb-stomped by Stats in the GF despite being SKT's designated ZvP sniper (in the old PR thread I recall predicting Soo v Stats as the ideal scenario for SKT -- in fact SKT had a favorable line-up in the GF, as could as they possibly could have hoped for and I cannot believe that KT fans weren't shitting their pants, but they could not put it away).
If I made a ranking right now... here's a tentative look: 1. Flash -okay 2. Hydra -might be high but reflects his rank and his chances 3. Bisu -stays same 4. Zero -could be swapped with Bisu 5. Jangbi -for a short while the magic was back. then it died down. And now it's flared again. Needs more consistency to move up 6. Fantasy -love Fanta but Fanta loves to trollolololol the rankings by sporadically raping and then sucking. Until he beats higher caliber opponents he stays down here. Perfective and Hyuk?... 7. Stats -his role in achieving KT's win cannot be overlooked. Smashed 3 PR opponents in the playoffs 8. Jaedong -he's slipping, but is there anyone I haven't mentioned so far that you'd pick as a favorite to win vs the Dong in a boX? His star might be waning but he's still just That. Damn. Good. 9. Hoejja -I almost feel guilty having him this low after his big success. 10. ?
Candidates for 10: Soo, Sun, Bogus, Killer, Light, Horang2 (all should be considered as possible CBNC candidates)
This isn't a *great* ranking by any stretch of the imagination, but it more accurately reflects the state of BW I think. I'm not going to dip everything into the OSL hat because SPL is between seasons (assuming there is another season) and MSL is lagging. STX Masters isn't the biggest factor in determining how I rank players since it's really just an exhibition league.
It's not about trusting Dong to be able to win. It's about trusting the other player to win over Dong. Dong right now is a bit shaky, but there's no one I left below him that I'd trust to beat him reliably. Admittedly, in the cases of Light and Bogus that's because ZvT is Dong's 1 stable match.
not wanting to qq but as an aside it's so much harder to get the comments nowadays, i always just hit end after going through the top bar and forget that i'm on the page with all of them, and scan down to when jju was active
I think that will revitalize the comments, because you can clearly see that there are far, far less comments this month thanks to the removal from the side.
As an addendum to that post, it would also be a good idea for the top of the comments thread (above CBNC) to have a link to the actual PR so people accessing the comments thread in the BW section have an easy 1-click link to the PR (since Features>PR has been forgotten).
On August 31 2011 15:51 Dakkas wrote: Crucify me Mortality but I wouldn't really trust Jaedong in a BoX right now against a lot of the top-tier players
With his current ZvT form I'd say he's favored against any Terran player in a BoX series, I'd even give him the nod over Flash given how he's dominated their recent games. And, as much as people rag on his ZvP, he still hasn't dropped a ZvP BoX series since WCG Korea 2009 vs. Stork, which was over two years ago. The only player who I think would be truly favored against him in PvZ would be Bisu, if Bisu ever actually manages to reach the later stages of a Starleague again...
On the other hand, his ZvZ has just not been right since his loss to HoGiL late last year. There was always a split second killer instinct to his ZvZ before that point that is just missing in his current form. I don't think there's anything mechanically wrong, from watching his games, but his ZvZ game-sense seems to have completely deserted him. I'd favor anyone competent in ZvZ over him at the moment, sadly. :/
Fantastic form from Fantasy. His perfect record is broken, but 8-1 in OSL so far is pretty tight. I think he stands a solid chance for #2 on the next PR so far, especially since he beat one of the other contenders Hydra pretty convincingly. I mean, you couldn't watch that series and have confidence in Hydra's ZvT. And ZvT is what judges all great Zergs.
I think that will revitalize the comments, because you can clearly see that there are far, far less comments this month thanks to the removal from the side.
While I'm all for putting the PR "back where it belongs", there weren't that many comments before it was moved and (apart from the OSL Ro8 results) there really hasn't been anything definitive to cause a debate – not enough games.
OSL RO8 and the Fantasy Semi surely would have caused a much bigger stir on this thread if it were on the right hand side. Instead we have a handful of posts.
I'm sad. This thread needs more love and right around now, people would be crying and QQing for the next PR. So, on behalf of all those repetitive, ignorant, annoying people...
When is the next PR coming out?! QQ T_T I love PR... and I miss it's original spot on my homepage T_T
(yes I am one of those annoying people, but a BW fanboy through and through)
does anyone know what's happening with the latest MSL? i'm getting BW withdrawals. and also, what BW games will be played this month? is it JUST the OSL?
Next PR will be at the end of September, unless you wish for me to do some weird amalgamation of August and the first half of September, then another with the second half of September and October.
On September 06 2011 15:24 flamewheel wrote: Next PR will be at the end of September, unless you wish for me to do some weird amalgamation of August and the first half of September, then another with the second half of September and October.
Will there even be BW games in the second half of september?
I think what we have to do is Zerg Rush MBCGame. And then Zerg Rush KeSPA. And while we are at it, we need to DT drop the executives who decided to disband our Starcraft teams.
Flamewheel, any plans about moving the PR Comments thread (with a link to PR above CBNC) from Polls & Liquibet to BW General? Not that I think I'm a genius or anything, but I see that simple move as a requirement to prolonging the life of the PR beyond the 3 days it is in featured news. In fact, it'd be borderline negligence not to do it. I'd just really like to hear that there are plans for this.
And as was said, it'd be best to do the next PR a day or so after the OSL ends (and JangBi is crowned champion, god-willing), and then the next one after October is finished.
Aghh I love power rank I wish it was still on the side!!! Waiting for the next power rank to come out! I really liked the easy-access of power rank from the side-bar.
The problem with moving to BW General is that you'll get dickwads who want to resurrect old PR threads all the time and then talk about the ranking using things we discovered after the ranking. Suddenly Flash is ranked too high because the next month he goes 0-4. Suddenly Soo is too low because he wins OSL and all his opponents commit suicide for allowing such an atrocity to take place. So the only other option is closing the old PR threads as soon as the new one is up. But then you have the situation that a lot of thoughtful comments come out right before the new PR is posted and you are shutting the door in their face.
On September 06 2011 23:15 Mortality wrote: I think what we have to do is Zerg Rush MBCGame. And then Zerg Rush KeSPA. And while we are at it, we need to DT drop the executives who decided to disband our Starcraft teams.
Clearly the moneyed elites at MBC raised prices on the Spawning Pool to keep the common Starcraft fan helpless and poor. 1984, anyone?
Also, I think the BW General idea is fine. Just leave a brief grace period after the new PR goes up. It's okay if the old thread stays open for a little while; we just want to avoid people commenting on PRs from 2008 or whatever. The status quo just makes PR way too hard to keep up with for it to remain a lively place for general discussion of results.
Gentlemen you do realize that there is a usercript in the BW userscripts thread that scrapes power rank and puts it back on the right sidebar where it belongs right?
On September 06 2011 23:15 Mortality wrote: I think what we have to do is Zerg Rush MBCGame. And then Zerg Rush KeSPA. And while we are at it, we need to DT drop the executives who decided to disband our Starcraft teams.
Clearly the moneyed elites at MBC raised prices on the Spawning Pool to keep the common Starcraft fan helpless and poor. 1984, anyone?
Also, I think the BW General idea is fine. Just leave a brief grace period after the new PR goes up. It's okay if the old thread stays open for a little while; we just want to avoid people commenting on PRs from 2008 or whatever. The status quo just makes PR way too hard to keep up with for it to remain a lively place for general discussion of results.
That's not a bad idea. It would require a bit of micromanagement by a moderator to remember to close the thread, but 3-5 days after a new PR is posted is plenty of time to wrap up any ongoing debate in the previous month.
Top3 should be Flash, Fantasy and Jangbi. Fantasy being clutch as usual in OSL plus winning his play-off games, Flash is Flash, and Jangbi beat Flash plus winning 3-0 against any zerg (nevermind a 60%ZvP-player) in a Bo5 is just impressive. He played pretty much flawlessly against Soo.
On September 09 2011 21:29 Malinor wrote: Top3 should be Flash, Fantasy and Jangbi. Fantasy being clutch as usual in OSL plus winning his play-off games, Flash is Flash, and Jangbi beat Flash plus winning 3-0 against any zerg (nevermind a 60%ZvP-player) in a Bo5 is just impressive. He played pretty much flawlessly against Soo.
I can agree with this. Also he gets extra kudos for using dark archons
Then make it part of your new routine! Just click "Posts" at the top and as long as you posted in here you'll see it.
#1 is you know who, although it's a very fragile position if it ends up that he lost to the eventual OSL champ (as in, JangBi would get much kudos).
#2 should go to winner of OSL. #3 to runner up. Hydra gets #4. Then Stats, Bisu, and ZerO to round out the top 7 (not necessarily in that order).
Last three some combination of Killer, Jaedong, Soo, Bogus, Hoejja, Sun, with the rest CBNC. Good look determining who deserves to get it. Possibly Light and Soulkey can maintain a spot too.
I'm inclined to actually slide Hydra in behind Zero and Bisu. 2 and 3 go to OSL winner and runner up if they keep playing the way they have. If one of them totally drops the ball, or if the entire series is retarded, that positioning could change. I regard Fantasy and Jangbi ranks as a little more fragile because they haven't continually proven themselves over months and months the way the others have. Fantasy is coming off a bad slump and Jangbi was coming off an even worse slump, played well, then got eaten up by tough opponents, and is now shooting up like a star again. With both of them you get the sense that "if he brings his best today then hot damn! He will rape! ...But that's IF."
Edit: also, the rest of the ranking looks like what I was suggesting a couple weeks ago, with the only change being that Soo is definitely not top 10 worthy. CBNC okay, but not top 10.
On September 10 2011 20:41 Holgerius wrote: The lack of PR on the right side has totally ruined my TL browsing ruitine. I pretty much never visit this thread anymore.
Getting to PR isn't a problem for me. And truthfully, a lot of people would always come over and post stupid things without bothering to at least skim the thread, or making outrageous fanboy comments; in that respect PR won't suffer as badly.
It's the message that the TL staff is sending everybody that bothers me so much. In the eyes of TL, BW is dead. Pretty soon I think BW will be moved down the left side to below Sports & Games and the Replays section will get grouped with BW even though once upon a time there was a small but dedicated staff putting their heart and soul into that subforum. I anticipate all of this happening before the year is out. Speaking honestly, I've been somewhat disappointed by the way the forum is handled in general lately. We used to have these things called the TL Commandments, which I think most of the forum doesn't even know exists anymore. The staff got too lenient in order to encourage the growth of SC2, which some of us older BW guys the bitter old men of the forum.
On September 14 2011 02:42 Mortality wrote: Getting to PR isn't a problem for me. And truthfully, a lot of people would always come over and post stupid things without bothering to at least skim the thread, or making outrageous fanboy comments; in that respect PR won't suffer as badly.
It's the message that the TL staff is sending everybody that bothers me so much. In the eyes of TL, BW is dead. Pretty soon I think BW will be moved down the left side to below Sports & Games and the Replays section will get grouped with BW even though once upon a time there was a small but dedicated staff putting their heart and soul into that subforum. I anticipate all of this happening before the year is out. Speaking honestly, I've been somewhat disappointed by the way the forum is handled in general lately. We used to have these things called the TL Commandments, which I think most of the forum doesn't even know exists anymore. The staff got too lenient in order to encourage the growth of SC2, which some of us older BW guys the bitter old men of the forum.
That's exactly how I feel as well. And it hurts me a lot. It seems like BW was abandoned by TL some time ago. Moreover the quality of average post has decreased ever since SC2 was released. The latter maybe simply because average age of BW fan is higher than SC2 fan meaning that BW fans are more mature? Or maybe it's just with the larger volume there is larger number of trolls and idiots...
On September 14 2011 02:42 Mortality wrote: Getting to PR isn't a problem for me. And truthfully, a lot of people would always come over and post stupid things without bothering to at least skim the thread, or making outrageous fanboy comments; in that respect PR won't suffer as badly.
It's the message that the TL staff is sending everybody that bothers me so much. In the eyes of TL, BW is dead. Pretty soon I think BW will be moved down the left side to below Sports & Games and the Replays section will get grouped with BW even though once upon a time there was a small but dedicated staff putting their heart and soul into that subforum. I anticipate all of this happening before the year is out. Speaking honestly, I've been somewhat disappointed by the way the forum is handled in general lately. We used to have these things called the TL Commandments, which I think most of the forum doesn't even know exists anymore. The staff got too lenient in order to encourage the growth of SC2, which some of us older BW guys the bitter old men of the forum.
That's exactly how I feel as well. And it hurts me a lot. It seems like BW was abandoned by TL some time ago. Moreover the quality of average post has decreased ever since SC2 was released. The latter maybe simply because average age of BW fan is higher than SC2 fan meaning that BW fans are more mature? Or maybe it's just with the larger volume there is larger number of trolls and idiots...
BW fans went through several periods of Rekrul wielding that ban hammer like a tyrant. Not saying TL was perfect back then or anything and probably a large part of the problem today is that there's just such a flood of traffic through this site, but this forum really is in need of some purging.
Just beautiful by Jangbi. I think I'm actually happier than I would have been if Flash had beaten him and went on to get a 4th OSL gold. I enjoy watching Flash win, but tonight I feel like I watched Brood War win.
I think a PR will come soon. My own tentative ranking, not having seen all the games...
1. Jangbi - I was originally planning to leave Flash at #1 unless we had a 3-0 blowout, but Jangbi's play has honestly just been THAT impressive. My biggest hesitation about putting Jangbi this high is consistency. Up until a few months ago, Jangbi was in a slump of about 25% wins over a period of about a year. YIKES! He's really turned that around, cracking into 2200 ELO territory, winning OSL against the 2 best TvPers on the scene and demolishing a ZvP sniper 3-0. The only match he hasn't *really* proved is PvP. Which is actually his highest match by ELO right now since it was least effected by his slump. Even if Jangbi plummets next season, he proved that he was more than just the flavor of the month, and that's what is important. True power. Not just a handful of wins, not even a tournament badge. True power. 2. Flash - it feels like forever since he last played, but that's only because nothing is going on. Let's face it, had Jangbi not knocked him out in a tense 2-1 series in Ro16, Flash probably would have torn apart this OSL. Soo would have been curb-stomped even harder (if that's at all possible), Hydra would have no chance (look at their past matches) and Fantasy might have been close, but history has always favored Flash in their titanic clashes. Not only that, but where Jangbi really failed recently was the SPL playoffs, which is where Flash shined in typical Flash fashion, carrying his team to the GF stage and wiping the floor with Best twice to secure the crown. 3. Fantasy - I did not originally intend to put him this high. Going into the series with Hydra, Fantasy was on an 8 game win streak, but who had he beaten? Only one opponent was actually a serious vT opponent. Not only that, but Fantasy was coming off a pretty ugly looking slump since the SWL playoffs back in March. However, Fantasy displayed some seriously superb TvZ against Hydra and some superb TvP against Jangbi, pushing our new champion to the absolute limit. What's more is that there's no real reason to doubt Fantasy's TvT either. So for now at least it seems Fantasy is back. The question is if he will stay back or go back to trolling. 4. Zero - On my tentative ranking posted 8/31 I put Bisu ahead of Zero. The thing with Zero is that he hasn't had any opportunities to play since last PR, which is a damn shame because he's a lot of fun to watch. If you doubt this ranking, let's recap where Zero is as of the last rankings released: #2 PR, #3 ELO, #3 KeSPA. All of these rankings measure different things and all of them value Zero at the top. He is, in my opinion, the best Zerg player in the world right now. 5. Bisu - As I said, I originally put Bisu above Zero. But after some internal deliberation I am not satisfied. The problem with where to rank Bisu is that he's been dominating for months and months, but who has he played? What has he accomplished? Nobody and nothing. Compared to Flash who has been tested numerous times, compared to Zero who carried his team on his back in the playoffs, compared to Jangbi who squared down two of the best TvPers in history to claim the throne... how does Bisu REALLY look? I would have loved to see a Bisu vs Flash ace match instead of Best vs Flash if for no other reason than to answer this. 6. Hydra - Oooooh boy, Fantasy really wiped the floor with him. But while Hydra's game play looked sloppy in some parts, it looked fantastic in others and ZvT is his worst match. Had Hydra beaten Fantasy, I honestly believe that we would have seen Hydra crowned for the second time this year. That's how small the gap is between #1 and #6 right now. 7. Stats - As I said previously, his role in crowning KT cannot be overlooked. Without him they wouldn't have even made the finals, let alone win it. 8. Jaedong - Hard to believe that the Dong is this low. But don't take that to mean that he's fallen out of the title picture. His star is waning, but he's still S-class. The fact that S-class sits only at #8 should be a good indicator of just how crowded it's gotten at the top. As for what JD needs to work on, no question its ZvZ. His ZvP is still very strong and his ZvT seems impenetrable. His ZvZ has now held him back from advancing in the past 4 Starleagues. 9. Hoejja - for what he did in the GF 10. Sun, Bogus or Light
I've never been a huge Jangbi fan—in fact, at the beginning of his first ascendency, I despised him. For some strange reason, I'm nothing but happy about his OSL win.
facts: Jangbi appeared on the PR in 2007 for the first time Jangbi was #1 in PR in January, 2009
Objectively speaking, Flash is still #1 IMO for going 2-0 in the PL finals and for carrying his team throughout the playoffs. While Jangbi failed going 0-3 in the PL playoffs.
But Jangbi should be a clear #2. I think he still lack that legit PvZ win to make me think he's truly on top. If Hydra and Soo had switched places, I'd lean more towards Jangbi #1. But beating the two best TvPer in the world, including the best player in the world, in BoXs is truly impressive
On September 18 2011 01:12 Mortality wrote: CBNC: whoever doesn't make #10 + Killer, maybe + Soo, maybe + Horang2
I'm not a killer fan, not even a zerg fan. But Killer deserves a top 10 spot. His OSL run is impressive, and almost winning the series against Soo despite one forfeit and 2 BO disadvantages shows plenty of skills. His PL season is nice, and Oz not in the playoffs is not his fault.
I would be severely disappointed if I don't see JangBi at #1. Power rank takes into account the quality of games and the player's "form" or "momentum" as well as the win/loss record for the month (to a lesser degree), and I can't pick out another that's shown greater mental strength and determination.
JangBi defeated: - Flash in a Bo3: not much details needed. Who else has taken Flash down in a BoX in a while? Admittedly Flash didn't play his best in the series (particularly the latter two games), but JangBi played fantastic. - Fantasy in a Bo5: Fantasy was on a roll, winning his SPL finals game as well as almost all his OSL games up until the finals. JangBi's comeback in set 5... cannot be expressed in words. - Soo in a Bo5: Many people are underestimating Soo but this guy had a ZvP of 10-2 this season, and JangBi just broke him down methodically in the set. - ... and a couple others on his way to fulfilling Legend of the Fall.
Also I think the fact that JangBi rose so quickly from the worst of his slumps to his well-earned champion title should be taken into account. That shows how tough this kid's mindset is.
On September 18 2011 15:55 OpticalShot wrote: I would be severely disappointed if I don't see JangBi at #1. Power rank takes into account the quality of games and the player's "form" or "momentum" as well as the win/loss record for the month (to a lesser degree), and I can't pick out another that's shown greater mental strength and determination.
JangBi defeated: - Flash in a Bo3: not much details needed. Who else has taken Flash down in a BoX in a while? Admittedly Flash didn't play his best in the series (particularly the latter two games), but JangBi played fantastic. - Fantasy in a Bo5: Fantasy was on a roll, winning his SPL finals game as well as almost all his OSL games up until the finals. JangBi's comeback in set 5... cannot be expressed in words. - Soo in a Bo5: Many people are underestimating Soo but this guy had a ZvP of 10-2 this season, and JangBi just broke him down methodically in the set. - ... and a couple others on his way to fulfilling Legend of the Fall.
Also I think the fact that JangBi rose so quickly from the worst of his slumps to his well-earned champion title should be taken into account. That shows how tough this kid's mindset is.