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Belha
Italy2850 Posts
1) Learn via repetition the perfect build order (eventually you're going to do it decently) using replays. Check for variations depending maps and starting positions. 2) Practice the build repeatedly with some practice friend. 3) Practice the build aganist unknowns and learn how to respond aganist every threat. Go for it. | ||
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bankai
362 Posts
On July 20 2011 15:14 Belha wrote: Some time ago i was in a similar spot as you bankai. I used to play 3gate expo and do 2 base timing aganist Z. I was fine, winning a lot of games, however i was amazed with the replays i saw in this "15 Nexus" thread from this "little" (prolly one of the top3 P posters in TL) guy called "Anhic". That amazing post/guy changed my way to see/play Sc2. I find out that this "risky" build is in some maps even safer than a 3 gate expo. Now i'm a macro player =D. If you wanna expand your knowledge of the game, go and learn that style you like, you are going to improve as a player anyways. You only need 3 things to learn that build: 1) Learn via repetition the perfect build order (eventually you're going to do it decently) using replays. Check for variations depending maps and starting positions. 2) Practice the build repeatedly with some practice friend. 3) Practice the build aganist unknowns and learn how to respond aganist every threat. Go for it. Appreciate your post Belha. I dont have much time to play so wanted to learn the game as efficiently as possible. I know there are ppl out there that have time to churn out like thousands of games but i dont have that luxury  Therefore, I wanted to know good macro builds backbone that are adaptable to any map and offer flexibility to deal with anything Zerg can throw at me (on the assumption I scout and react appropriately of course) and wanted to know if high ranked players recommend this one ^^But I hear what you are saying - in some sense, most builds that are popular and used by progamers (e.g. Huk in this case) are solid builds - we just gotta be willing to learn it well and stick to it. If the build happens to be micro intensive then thats fine, it probably just means a steeper learning curve but will hopefully come out the other end of it as a better player overall  Guess my doubt in using this build came about because lots of ppl on this thread suggest that anyone below Diamond should not use this build. | ||
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rsvp
United States2266 Posts
You need to start +1 attack much earlier, it needs to be ready by the time your initial 6 zealots hit. This is what makes that first 6 gate attack so strong, the majority of zergs will be defending their 3rd with just lings and 2 shotting those lings is critical. Basically my first 50 gas goes to warpgate tech, next 100 gas goes to that attack upgrade. Chronoing warpgate tech is priority but you should have enough energy for a few chronos on the +1 as well. Another thing about your initial 6 gate zealot attack - I don't recommend it on maps with an easy 3rd (i.e. metal). Although lower level zergs might not be used to the timing and die anyway, good zergs will be able to scout out your 6 gate and get roaches to safely defend. Also if the zerg stays on 2 bases, I would be careful. It's ok to poke with your first 6 zealots, but if you see spines you need to not warp in any more zealots for now and get blink and/or HT asap because mutas or infestors are coming. However if you do do it... your goal is to kill the 3rd. Focus on the micro and don't let your zealots stray chasing drones running away or w/e. If you kill the hatch without doing a lot of other damage, you will be slightly ahead. If you don't kill the hatch but trade units, you will be slightly behind. As you're warping in new rounds of units during the assault on the 3rd, keep warping in only zealots until you actually see roaches. If he never makes roaches and just masses lings, going pure zealots while teching to HT/archon is so much better. If he gets banes, stop attacking and wait until you have archons and then a-move for the win. If he was rushing to infestors with only lings to defend, he should be dead by now. If he goes hydra/ling, get a few stalkers and warp in a mix of zealot/stalker. Zealots do pretty decently hydras, especially if you can get them off creep. If you see roaches (which is really the only way for the zerg to defend the 3rd - I don't think I've ever lost to someone who got a 3rd and then never made roaches), then you can continue on to your blink strategy. Now for the actual blink part - you have 2 options: first, you can follow what the OP says and cut probes at ~50, pump stalkers, and dance your way to victory. Obviously this is very strong. But also it's possible to still play a defensive macro game with blink stalkers - don't stop making probes, and get the 3rd earlier. 3 base P is very strong, and then you can switch to stalker/sentry/immortal/HT/archon. Extremely strong composition especially against infestor play which is really popular these days. The only real counter (although a pretty good one) is roach into roach/infestor or roach/ling/infestor. Here's a recent rep of me doing this build. There's not actually very much blink in it since my 6 gate zealot attack puts me pretty far ahead, but you can still get the general idea of what I'm trying to do here. ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-222146.jpg) | ||
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bankai
362 Posts
On July 20 2011 16:12 Anihc wrote: Some more comments on this now that I have a ton more experience with it: You need to start +1 attack much earlier, it needs to be ready by the time your initial 6 zealots hit. This is what makes that first 6 gate attack so strong, the majority of zergs will be defending their 3rd with just lings and 2 shotting those lings is critical. Basically my first 50 gas goes to warpgate tech, next 100 gas goes to that attack upgrade. Chronoing warpgate tech is priority but you should have enough energy for a few chronos on the +1 as well. Another thing about your initial 6 gate zealot attack - I don't recommend it on maps with an easy 3rd (i.e. metal). Although lower level zergs might not be used to the timing and die anyway, good zergs will be able to scout out your 6 gate and get roaches to safely defend. Also if the zerg stays on 2 bases, I would be careful. It's ok to poke with your first 6 zealots, but if you see spines you need to not warp in any more zealots for now and get blink and/or HT asap because mutas or infestors are coming. However if you do do it... your goal is to kill the 3rd. Focus on the micro and don't let your zealots stray chasing drones running away or w/e. If you kill the hatch without doing a lot of other damage, you will be slightly ahead. If you don't kill the hatch but trade units, you will be slightly behind. As you're warping in new rounds of units during the assault on the 3rd, keep warping in only zealots until you actually see roaches. If he never makes roaches and just masses lings, going pure zealots while teching to HT/archon is so much better. If he gets banes, stop attacking and wait until you have archons and then a-move for the win. If he was rushing to infestors with only lings to defend, he should be dead by now. If he goes hydra/ling, get a few stalkers and warp in a mix of zealot/stalker. Zealots do pretty decently hydras, especially if you can get them off creep. If you see roaches (which is really the only way for the zerg to defend the 3rd - I don't think I've ever lost to someone who got a 3rd and then never made roaches), then you can continue on to your blink strategy. Now for the actual blink part - you have 2 options: first, you can follow what the OP says and cut probes at ~50, pump stalkers, and dance your way to victory. Obviously this is very strong. But also it's possible to still play a defensive macro game with blink stalkers - don't stop making probes, and get the 3rd earlier. 3 base P is very strong, and then you can switch to stalker/sentry/immortal/HT/archon. Extremely strong composition especially against infestor play which is really popular these days. The only real counter (although a pretty good one) is roach into roach/infestor or roach/ling/infestor. Here's a recent rep of me doing this build. There's not actually very much blink in it since my 6 gate zealot attack puts me pretty far ahead, but you can still get the general idea of what I'm trying to do here. Thanks Anihc, that advice sounds really helpful and really explains a lot of how to react/transition based on what zerg does. One thing that has been slightly bugging me is just the opener of this build. I started practicing it last night and watched your replay and around the 6:30-7:30min mark, it just feels like you look vulnerable. I think at that point you had 2 cannons (one exposed on the right side) and maybe 2 zealots, 1 sentry, 1 stalker (if memory serves correct). Not just your replay though, even in Day9 when it spotted Huk's build, he opens Forge FE and has like 2 sentries by the 6:30min-ish mark. So my question is, how did you know that you were safe at that point? What if zerg ran in with speedlings from the right side (behind the grass) at that point? Your cannons may take out a few of them but then they could get through to your main and make a bit of trouble. In the back of my mind, I thought the key to making Nexus first or Forge FE builds safe was getting 2 sentries out early to protect, but here you use your first 150 gas on WG research and +1attk upgrade. Sorry, i hope im not sounding like I am criticising your play - in fact, it seems like you had a thought process behind every move you made which I found great As a low player, I just want to better understand your thoughts behind the way you played so I can understand this build in a deeper way instead of blindly following it So to summarise, my questions are: 1) When doing a Forge FE build (esp on close position maps), what key points in time do I need to worry about zerg aggression? 2) What key points in this build should I be scouting and how? E.g. I noticed you scouted simultaneously with a zealot and probe - what triggered to do that and what did you specifically look for? 3) How does your build know that you would be safe from the 'infamous' 7:30 roach/zergling all-in?? Assuming you know its coming, how do you adjust for this? 4) Do you always build 6 zealots with this build order and then only if you think they can do damage, you build a further 6 zealots from a proxy pylon? Thanks again! | ||
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iamke55
United States2806 Posts
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rsvp
United States2266 Posts
On July 21 2011 09:44 bankai wrote: So to summarise, my questions are: 1) When doing a Forge FE build (esp on close position maps), what key points in time do I need to worry about zerg aggression? 2) What key points in this build should I be scouting and how? E.g. I noticed you scouted simultaneously with a zealot and probe - what triggered to do that and what did you specifically look for? 3) How does your build know that you would be safe from the 'infamous' 7:30 roach/zergling all-in?? Assuming you know its coming, how do you adjust for this? 4) Do you always build 6 zealots with this build order and then only if you think they can do damage, you build a further 6 zealots from a proxy pylon? Thanks again! 1) Every single second between the start of the game and the time when your warpgate tech finishes or your void/dt pops out is time you should be worrying about zerg aggression. There are so many things a zerg can do, and you have to be on the lookout for an attack at any time. This ranges from early pools, 1 base roach all-ins, speedling run bys, baneling busts, 2 base roach/ling attack, etc. Your best defense against them is scouting... which leads to 2) You pretty much have to always keep scouting the zerg at all times. If a scouting probe dies, send another one. Send 2 probes in multiple directions. Lure lings away with 1 probe and sneak another probe out. Use zealots. etc. If he gets a lot of speedlings on the map and prevents you from getting anything out, keep a probe scouting just outside your base. That extra 2 seconds warning you can get from spotting rallied lings or w/e is crucial to you stopping a speedling runby or baneling bust. Scouting with probe + zealot at same time is standard for me in every pvz. What to look for? If you see more than 4 zerglings at any time, you need to throw down at least 1 more cannon asap. If you see speedlings (or scout speedling expand with your initial probe), I would partially wall off your ramp/entrance to main and have a probe near it hotkeyed ready to throw down a gateway or something to completely wall it off. If you see an evo chamber, I would feel a little safe. If you see no gas for awhile, I would feel fairly safe. If you see a 3rd going up, I would feel very safe. Other things to watch out (besides the obvious like a roach warren or baneling nest) is drone count, and what is popping out of eggs. Even if you don't see any lings on the map but you see a pair of lings hatch from eggs, you need to get cannons immediately and be on alert. Zerg makes waves of either drones or units at a time - so whatever you see popping out of just 1 egg is likely what is also going to pop out of all the eggs for the next minute. 3) Kinda already answered this. If you go this style (zeal > blink) you actually don't really need many sentries, if any (a few will help against banelings though for sure). The response to any sort of aggression is just more cannons. If roaches, chrono out stalkers. If mass lings, chrono out zealots. Against a 7:30 big 2 base roach/all in, you should basically have a lot of cannons with a handful of stalkers, and then your warpgate tech should finish soon afterwards anyway. 4) Not always. Against good players I no longer do the 6 gate zeal on maps with easy 3rds and against zergs who stay on 2 bases. Instead I get blink faster, all 4 gases faster, and don't cut probes as much. But if I do scout that 3rd and throw up those 6 gates, yes I do always warp in 6 zeals initially and then continue to keep warping in units. Whether those additional units are zeals or stalkers depends on what the zerg makes in response, as I described above. | ||
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bankai
362 Posts
On July 21 2011 10:28 Anihc wrote: 1) Every single second between the start of the game and the time when your warpgate tech finishes or your void/dt pops out is time you should be worrying about zerg aggression. There are so many things a zerg can do, and you have to be on the lookout for an attack at any time. This ranges from early pools, 1 base roach all-ins, speedling run bys, baneling busts, 2 base roach/ling attack, etc. Your best defense against them is scouting... which leads to 2) You pretty much have to always keep scouting the zerg at all times. If a scouting probe dies, send another one. Send 2 probes in multiple directions. Lure lings away with 1 probe and sneak another probe out. Use zealots. etc. If he gets a lot of speedlings on the map and prevents you from getting anything out, keep a probe scouting just outside your base. That extra 2 seconds warning you can get from spotting rallied lings or w/e is crucial to you stopping a speedling runby or baneling bust. Scouting with probe + zealot at same time is standard for me in every pvz. What to look for? If you see more than 4 zerglings at any time, you need to throw down at least 1 more cannon asap. If you see speedlings (or scout speedling expand with your initial probe), I would partially wall off your ramp/entrance to main and have a probe near it hotkeyed ready to throw down a gateway or something to completely wall it off. If you see an evo chamber, I would feel a little safe. If you see no gas for awhile, I would feel fairly safe. If you see a 3rd going up, I would feel very safe. Other things to watch out (besides the obvious like a roach warren or baneling nest) is drone count, and what is popping out of eggs. Even if you don't see any lings on the map but you see a pair of lings hatch from eggs, you need to get cannons immediately and be on alert. Zerg makes waves of either drones or units at a time - so whatever you see popping out of just 1 egg is likely what is also going to pop out of all the eggs for the next minute. 3) Kinda already answered this. If you go this style (zeal > blink) you actually don't really need many sentries, if any (a few will help against banelings though for sure). The response to any sort of aggression is just more cannons. If roaches, chrono out stalkers. If mass lings, chrono out zealots. Against a 7:30 big 2 base roach/all in, you should basically have a lot of cannons with a handful of stalkers, and then your warpgate tech should finish soon afterwards anyway. 4) Not always. Against good players I no longer do the 6 gate zeal on maps with easy 3rds and against zergs who stay on 2 bases. Instead I get blink faster, all 4 gases faster, and don't cut probes as much. But if I do scout that 3rd and throw up those 6 gates, yes I do always warp in 6 zeals initially and then continue to keep warping in units. Whether those additional units are zeals or stalkers depends on what the zerg makes in response, as I described above. Wow, again some really good advice. Hope im not bothering you with all these noob questions, but had some follow ups: (2) You say scout pretty much all times. In practice, does this mean if I am not building my buildings, then I am actively moving my probe/zealot around the map scouting? Where exactly do you scout though? I noticed in your replay you went for the Xelnaga watch tower and the 3rd base location. But it sounds like you suggest to scout in his base - but often they will have at least a spine or 2 that will kill my probe before i even make it inside?? Just sounds hard without my good old halluncination (3) In addition to lots of cannons and stalker/zealots is it ok to build 2-3 initial sentries or is doing this going to hinder this build? Looking at how other ppl defend this in other situations, the sentries seem to be key as it stops you from being overwhelmed. (4) How do you know a zerg is staying on 2 bases? Is it if they havent taken their 3rd by 9mins or something? | ||
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rsvp
United States2266 Posts
2-3 sentries is fine, but you should get them after you start warpgate tech and +1 attack unless you scout some sort of attack. The reason I don't get sentries is because they're not very useful if he goes muta/ling or infestor/ling, and I'd rather have the extra gas for more stalker/ht. | ||
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JoeAWESOME
Sweden1080 Posts
The main problem is as Zerg you can't rly counter this properly. It's a lot about engaging at the right moment and knowing when the actual push is coming so you dont fall behind on economy. | ||
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Dice.
United States78 Posts
Are you claiming this strategy has no counter?! o.O | ||
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Dhalphir
Australia1305 Posts
On July 21 2011 13:48 Dice. wrote: Have to ask OP... Are you claiming this strategy has no counter?! o.O A solid strategy never has a counter. Thats what makes it solid. What this strategy has is weaknesses to certain gameplans, with steps in place to smooth those weaknesses a bit. As a question to the OP - are there any replays of successful defense of a 2base speedling/allin vs this build? It feels like you would be extremely strained trying to defend this on a map like Xel'Naga Caverns of Metalopolis with an open natural. | ||
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rsvp
United States2266 Posts
On July 21 2011 13:52 Dhalphir wrote: A solid strategy never has a counter. Thats what makes it solid. What this strategy has is weaknesses to certain gameplans, with steps in place to smooth those weaknesses a bit. As a question to the OP - are there any replays of successful defense of a 2base speedling/allin vs this build? It feels like you would be extremely strained trying to defend this on a map like Xel'Naga Caverns of Metalopolis with an open natural. Defending against any early (pre warpgate tech) attack doesn't have anything to do with this build, that's more of just knowing how to FFE correctly. But to answer your question I don't think I've seen a 2 base speedling all in in a long time. You defend it like any other all in, just make more cannons (and get some sentries if you like). Speedling runbys are very common though and the best way to deal with that is to partially wall off your ramp/entrance to main and be prepared to throw down a gateway to completely seal it off. Or block with a zealot. | ||
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rsvp
United States2266 Posts
On July 21 2011 13:46 JoeAWESOME wrote: U know something is wrong when a player can blindly mass 1 unit and do well with it. The main problem is as Zerg you can't rly counter this properly. It's a lot about engaging at the right moment and knowing when the actual push is coming so you dont fall behind on economy. Roach/infestor is a very good counter. It's important to control your infestors well and to not lose them easily, one thing I've noticed is that the better players I play always take care not to lose their infestors, whereas the bad players are like gifting me free infestors to kill all the time. On bigger maps pure roach/ling is pretty good too if you flank well with lings. | ||
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Arcanefrost
Belgium1257 Posts
 It's indeed better to go for +1 faster and to push with your first zealots. I always do this when I see a fast third, even on maps where it's pretty easy for the zerg to defend it because I feel like it always does a tun of damage and/or pressures the zerg a lot. Ht follow-up is really awesome after this because you have some spare gas and most zergs will go infestor upon seeing your blink. I add sentries and start immortal prodcution and go for stalker/sentry/immortal/ht. I feel like the metagame has shifted towards infestor heavy play, so I think this is superior to colossi builds. I only get colossi against hydra play now. I've been loving this build a lot. The first time I did this to any of my zerg friends it was a very one-sided win. Now the bastards are all blind countering me | ||
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JoeAWESOME
Sweden1080 Posts
On July 21 2011 14:10 Anihc wrote: Roach/infestor is a very good counter. It's important to control your infestors well and to not lose them easily, one thing I've noticed is that the better players I play always take care not to lose their infestors, whereas the bad players are like gifting me free infestors to kill all the time. On bigger maps pure roach/ling is pretty good too if you flank well with lings. Yeah you need infestors + roaches to deal with this but still, something is wrong when you can mass 1 unit and still vs anything. Though that's just what I think. | ||
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Oreo7
United States1647 Posts
I either like to pressure with it, in which case I do basically what the guide says except I rush my +2 and thus also my +1 much more and I don't do the initial zealot pressure, cause I feel like you risk just losing 6 zels to speedlings if the zerg has good ovie placement. I just start my pressure with zels + sentries and stalkers, like a normal 6wg attack but then only stalkers (no refreshing zel/sentry numbers) and obvs blink and +2. If I'm in the mood to macro and the map has a good defensible third I will put on slight pressure with ONLY stalkers leaving zel sentry at home because I don't intend to stay to fight for long. I also tech to dts like HuK did vrs July on TDA in Dreamhack to put some additional pressure on, while taking 3rd and getting hts. With good micro, ffs and if it's an easy third for you to take, I feel like you can take it pretty ez. What this is weak to is basically a Z who is totally prepared for your DTs, in which case you can be vulnerable to counterattack in a few production cycles because you just invested tons of gas for nothing. In this circumstance I morph a few archons, stop probe production for a few minutes, and just get ready to micro like all hell. | ||
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GDbushido
United States926 Posts
On July 21 2011 18:39 JoeAWESOME wrote: Pure blink stalkers will get stomped by almost any composition that includes infestors. Protoss needs templar, colossi, or even phoenix.Yeah you need infestors + roaches to deal with this but still, something is wrong when you can mass 1 unit and still vs anything. Though that's just what I think. | ||
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bankai
362 Posts
On July 21 2011 13:39 Anihc wrote: He has spines after seeing your FFE? What league is this :p Try to get into base if possible (many games I will sac zealot and just walk it past the queens directly into main just to scout there), if not hang around outside, see if you can get a glimpse of drone count/gas/what's hatching out of eggs. Also scout his 3rd base location. 9 minute is extremely late, if you don't see it by like 7-8 minutes he's 2 basing. 2-3 sentries is fine, but you should get them after you start warpgate tech and +1 attack unless you scout some sort of attack. The reason I don't get sentries is because they're not very useful if he goes muta/ling or infestor/ling, and I'd rather have the extra gas for more stalker/ht. Awesome advice Anihc, thanks. So just to clarify - if a zerg 1 bases or 2 base losira pushes you, its OK to have lots of cannons up due to lack of sentries?? Im thinking like 4-5cannons + watever zealots/stalkers I can squeeze in once I scout their push? hahaha...im low plat and sometimes i see zerg put down blind spines and even spores - possibly cos they just got burned in another game from DTs I had some questions about doing an FFE but its probably not appropriate for this thread so i'll walk over to the simple Q thread now! | ||
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Gamma4
Australia75 Posts
since u wanna blink them as they lose shield, if they could take more damage u wouldnt have to pull away as fast.. thoughts? | ||
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Arcanefrost
Belgium1257 Posts
On July 22 2011 17:56 Gamma4 wrote: only gold player here but just wondering if anyone as considered getting a fast +1 shield with blink?!?! since u wanna blink them as they lose shield, if they could take more damage u wouldnt have to pull away as fast.. thoughts? Attack is a lot better, stalkers with +2 or +3 are insanely good. Shield is expensive and doesn't really add much because you don't want to tank with your stalkers. | ||
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