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UPDATES: Changed the opening build and added some more info. Thanks Anihc 
Hello teamliquid,
Recently I changed my PvZ after watching the Chinese players LoveTT, xiaot and Lovecd (hence the "Chinese" in the title).
They use a strategy that seems rather unorthodox on the NA/EU server, but actually works really well: Mass blink stalker.
The idea is to open with a fast expo (not necessarily forge fe, although I do think forge fe is the best choice) and go for a lot of blink stalkers with good attack upgrades and very few sentries. Blink stalkers are as mobile as protoss gets, you can use them to snipe off hatches, harass, pick of some units, take mapcontrol,... there's nothing a stalker can't do (except stopping Idra from leaving games too early, but I have my hopes up for a buff next patch).
The Build
I will warn you I'm a numbers freak, so if you want to try this strat right after reading this you better take some notes.
There are many variations of this build, I will discuss the one I use and feel the most comfortable with.
You start off with a forge fe like I said before. If it's shakuras or taldarim that won't be a problem but on maps like xel naga it's bets to practice your building placement. Everyone has a different version of forge feing so again, I will just write down what I do.
9 Pylon (at highground unless it's shakuras/taldarim. It's easier to deal with early pools this way, in a time were 50% of the ladder zergs seem to pool at 10 or earlier that's useful)
15 Forge if you scouted a gas-pool or pool-expo, if hatch first 15 nexus 15 forge
16 Pylon (at lowground)
18 Nexus
18 Cannons, one in mineral line, one behind your future wall.
18 Gate
19 Gas
20 Gas
Use first 4 CB's on nexus
Core
Zealot
WG when core is done
CB WG thrice
CB your nexusses 3-6 times
Get only 1 zealot and scout with it ( make sure you check whether he gets a fast third)
Get +1.
Add 5 gates. You should get them around 6:30-7:30, if you scouted standard play it's fine to go for to sneak some more probes in.
2 Natural gasses after gates
Go for an early push with your initial 6-7 zealots. Continue warping zealots if you feel like you can kill him completely or snipe his third. This hits at a really awkward timing for him, and is sooo good against fast thirds.
Around 9:00 Twilight Council (Blink asap, use 2-3 CBs)
Robo when you start blink (Observer right away)
Note: If you didn't see a fast third; add 3gates and a twilight council. Start your robo when blink starts and add 3 gates. Start pressuring around the 10 minute mark. Around 12 minutes into the game is an excellent time to attack because you have reached a good amout of stalkers by then.
Stop at 50 probes
Make a lot of stalkers and be very active with them
Execution:
The time has come to kill ourselves some bugs.
The point of the initial fast 6gate+1 zealot attack is pressuring a fast third base or a ling/infestor style, two weaknesses of this build. If he's not doing any of the above see whether you can do damage, and if not retreat.
While you're pressuring you are transitioning into blink.
Use your stalkers to pressure him a lot. Utilise your mobility to try and snipe his third, engage him and blink micro when you feel you can take them, pick of whatever you can pick off and keep engaging as long as you feel you can really hurt him. Also use the terrain( like the cliff behind the third on xelnaga)
You can also try to blink up to his main by using your observer as a spotter. A fun thing to do is to sacrifice one of your sentries to forcefield his main ramp, and then go up and tear his base apart. Very situational, but if it works you will have a smile on your face and a song on your lips.
You can engage every composition head-on unless he has infestors. This is not a problem though, with good control he's only even.
Hydra/ling can be dealt with using good blinks and fast +2 weapons.
Roach/hydra, baneling/ling and roach/ling will have a very hard time against this. Your push hits before a sufficient number of hydras are out, and before overlord drop is completed.
You will be the strongest around the 12 min mark, with 7gates kicking in and a stable economy to support them.
Follow-ups
The Chinese players take their third very late (13-14minish), which I don't really like.
Ofcourse I can't just go "hahaha poor zerg I have 300 apm blink micro and can own you by building nothing but stalkers" like the Chinese pros can.
I feel like a 12 min third is safe and usually the best option. Resume probe production now. On macro maps like taldarim I prefer a very fast 10:30 third though. It's not really hard to defend it because you're constantly applying pressure, and the zerg will not be thinking about attacking you anytime soon.
You can stay on blink stalkers for a long time and get away with it, but around the time the third is halfway done I feel like starting to tech is a wise decision. The good thing is that you can do whatever you want because you already have a TC and a robo. You can also opt to go for a dark shrine if you see he's illprepared for dark templar harass.
Roach/Hydra
Roach/hydra with fast +2 is imo one of the best responses by the zerg. I really like going double robo colossi off 3bases vs this.
Roach/infestor
Against any infestor play I highly prefer templar tech over colossi. I feel very uncomfortable without feedback. I find that immortal/blink stalkers/sentry/templar is the best composition vs this. If you can snipe his infestors with feedback his roaches will just melt.
Doubleling
If he goes doubleling it's important to add splash. It doesn't really matter whether you get colossi or ht/archon. I feel like templar/archon is the best choice because then you have feedback and archons just rape overlord bombers. I usually get charge and go for chargelot/stalker/archon/templar/sentry. Later on you do want to add colossi, but only 3-4. Whatever you do don't go lasertoss against an infestor player. A well upgraded stalker ball should always be the core of your army. He will probably try to baneling bomb you so building a couple extra observers to patrol around your base isn't a halfbad choice (since banelings are basically zerg's blueflame hellions when it comes to insanely good probe harassement)
You can also go heavy chargelot/archon, which is great against doubleling. I think it's best to scout what he's doing with your 6gate pressure, and then decide whether you're better off with blink or chargelot/archon.You can afford a lot more gates if you go chargelot, I usually end up with 14 or more off 3bases (since ht are only 50 minerals)
I think both styles work well, it comes down to personal preference.
Lategame tricks
In the very lategame you can actually harass him insanely. If you get a mothership out you can run around with your stalkers and recall them back once they're in danger. Another thing I love to do is warp-prism harassement. Just fly a prims to the edge of his base, warp-in your units there after a battle and kill his hatch or tech buildings.
Counters
There are no real hard counters to this build. If he has infestors you won't be killing him anytime soon but it's not a hard counter.
A fast third base is strong against this, so it's vital to start pressuring quickly. This is the main reason why opening 6gate is more solid. If you let him drone really hard he will overwhelm you with an endless swarm of roaches.
FAQ
+ Show Spoiler +I'll try to answer some questions here "Infestor/ling destroys this"It really doesn't. It's the best thing to do when you're sure you will face this strategy, but blind fast infestors are kind of risky vs other stuff so I don't see them often at all. Main thing is to control really well and to make sure you get out before he can fungal you, don't EVER let him fungal you. tech up to templar or colossi and you're more than fine. if you don't like going blink against infestor play, go chargelot/archon. "Do you always get weapon upgrades?"In most cases weapons is better, but like some people pointed out correctly (thanks!) armor is better against mutaling and against heavy ling/infestor styles it's also very viable. "Why the 6gate?"The main weaknesses of this build are a fast third and fast infestors with a lot of lings. By going for a heavy zealot +1 attack you'll give both of them trouble. Don't engage when you see he has a bunch of roaches obviously. Your main goal is to pressure and to make him get more roaches, which is good as you transition to blink. "Can this hold a roach/ling all-in?"Yes. You already have 2 or 3 cannons and warpgates should finish soon. With 6gates pumping stalkers there's no way he can kill you. "The replays don't show the exact build order"It's more about the heavy stalker style than one specific opening. I feel like the way I do it it's the best all-around. Against roach/hydra, ling/bling or muta/ling you're completely fine and against infestors or a fast third you have some nice early pressure.
Replays
No replays, I'm at work.
Just kidding, don't ban me, I like it here.
coLrsvp vs xSixMystik 6gate zealot into blink.
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-222146.jpg)
Xiaot vs Idra
Idra vs Xiaot, a more macro-ish style.
LoveTT vs Morrow Baneling/ling
Lovecd vs Dimaga
Lovecd vs Dimaga Infestor/ling
You can find some more games from the Starswar tournament, but they're pre-patch if i recall correctly. They don't follow my build precisely, but it's more about the heavy stalker style than it is a "do this and nothing else" opener.
Day9 did a daily about Huk's style; and if Huk does it I don't doubt for a second that it's a great build
Day9 talks about Huk's blink style
Hope you enjoyed it,
Arcane
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
I'm only in Diamond and I've been using this build a while (the general 7 gate, blink, +2, obs). Does that mean I'm ahead of my time? :D
It is very, very good. I've not lost with it yet in about 10 attempts.
What I like is that it can be somewhat all-inish - never resume probe production, don't expand, CB gates, or you can expand behind it with blink, +2, and robo already up.
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Personally my favorite strategy, but I prefer fast armor with blink stalkers; it flows better because stalkers are meant to tank (they don't have the highest dps if you know what I mean). Very nice build though. Thank you for doing the work for me :D I've had trouble getting this build correctly as I have never seen those players before.
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I also think going sentry heavy to get your expo up is nice against zerg (3 gate sentry fast expand)
edit- terrible sorry for double posting, thought the guy above me was below me
Please remove this post D:
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I like this idea alot but wait do you go for +3 attack but no armor at all?
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Vatican City State1872 Posts
"stalkers are meant to tank" LOL
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Vatican City State1872 Posts
cause if u micro your units right they shouldnt be taking that much dmg to health, only shields.
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
On June 23 2011 00:04 RobCorso wrote:
Personally my favorite strategy, but I prefer fast armor with blink stalkers; it flows better because stalkers are meant to tank (they don't have the highest dps if you know what I mean).
You're thinking about this completely the wrong way. *Because* Stalkers don't have high DPS is why you want the two attack upgrades.
The armour upgrade is close to meaningless because you're just blinking back the hurt ones anyway.
i.e. we need to kill = +2 attack
we need to survive = blink
Armour is superfluous.
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On June 23 2011 00:06 2heartless wrote:
I like this idea alot but wait do you go for +3 attack but no armor at all?
Yes.
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Horrible mistake sorry.
Delete post if required.
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On June 23 2011 00:04 RobCorso wrote:
Personally my favorite strategy, but I prefer fast armor with blink stalkers; it flows better because stalkers are meant to tank (they don't have the highest dps if you know what I mean). Very nice build though. Thank you for doing the work for me :D I've had trouble getting this build correctly as I have never seen those players before.
Stalkers can't tank for shit. They have below average dps that scales terribly with upgrades. Their greatest asset is their mobility.
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Massing upgraded Zerglings into Infestors might be the best counter to this. When I suspect a Blink Stalker rush or if I just see a ton of Stalkers from P, I usually just go double Evo Zerglings into 1-2 Infestors and Mutalisks.
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On June 23 2011 00:09 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2011 00:04 RobCorso wrote:
Personally my favorite strategy, but I prefer fast armor with blink stalkers; it flows better because stalkers are meant to tank (they don't have the highest dps if you know what I mean). You're thinking about this completely the wrong way. *Because* Stalkers don't have high DPS is why you want the two attack upgrades. The armour upgrade is close to meaningless because you're just blinking back the hurt ones anyway. i.e. we need to kill = +2 attack we need to survive = blink Armour is superfluous.
Huk was researching armor before weapons when he was up against Mutas in the Dreamhack tourny. It makes sense since mutas get that extra bounce damage. But against roaches, yeah, weapons for sure.
On the subject"chinese style PvZ": I'm in the same boat as the OP. Ever since I saw LoveTT (or LoveCD?) use this against Dimaga in Starswars, I immediately dropped the standard PvZ of "get fuck load of colossi, then push" style. Passivity against current zerg strategies is a sure fire death sentence. This heavy gateway/blink style allows you to remain a constant threat AND you can split your forces if need be. Add in a warp prism and you have the potential to kick some serious ass.
An added benefit of going this route is that your control/multitasking are going to improve since Blink Stalkers need to be out on the map to be effective. Blink Stalkers aren't as good when you don't have space to attack, retreat, then re-ingage. The first few times I tried the build, I got my ass handed to me because my mindset was still "turtle until 200/200". Not good.
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On June 23 2011 00:25 denzelz wrote:
Massing upgraded Zerglings into Infestors might be the best counter to this. When I suspect a Blink Stalker rush or if I just see a ton of Stalkers from P, I usually just go double Evo Zerglings into 1-2 Infestors and Mutalisks.
Rushing infestors will kill you vs large blink stalker numbers around the ~9 minute mark. Its easier to just roach/ling push his expansion in this type of play when they only have 3 sentries. They'd have to have really good force fields and cannons to just break even with Zerg early game pushes.
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I see why this is so appealing, but it really cuts into the point of fast expanding I would think. You're stuck at 18 supply for a while, which cuts into worker production. I've seen people do it and I know it works, but it just seems like it defeats the purpose to me.
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On June 23 2011 00:25 denzelz wrote:
Massing upgraded Zerglings into Infestors might be the best counter to this. When I suspect a Blink Stalker rush or if I just see a ton of Stalkers from P, I usually just go double Evo Zerglings into 1-2 Infestors and Mutalisks.
That's not a big problem for this build as you are already on your way to Templar tech with the Twilight Council. Needless to say HTs are an excellent counter to all the units you mentioned.
On June 23 2011 00:44 Deathmare wrote:
I see why this is so appealing, but it really cuts into the point of fast expanding I would think. You're stuck at 18 supply for a while, which cuts into worker production. I've seen people do it and I know it works, but it just seems like it defeats the purpose to me.
That is usually the case with a fast expansion; be slightly low on workers when you invest in the expansion, but once it's up you can catch up rapidly and most importantly, grow beyond the point of 1 base saturation, obviously. Also, the additional Nexus helps a lot for the upgrades: double Chronoboost (don't underestimate that).
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-- edit
Double post, sorry.
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Xiaot vs IdrA isn't the above mentioned bo?
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Thanks for the replays. I remember watching LoveTT's games against nestea and zenio a few months ago. Guy was absolutely insane and played with such a different opening/style from what I'm used to seeing. Looking forward to trying this out!
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Not going colossi is still a waste imo against roach play. You want the robo for obs anyway and investing in some colo just gives you so much more push power.
Against heavy ling strats this is awesome though as the only way for them to deal with it is infestors which come quite late letting toss expand faster then the zerg. It naturally transitions well into chargelot archon as well which deals with anything not using roaches.
I don't like the opening though, why would you go hallucination especially when you are only getting 3 sentries anyway? doesn't make sense. Stargate into this is much more reliable, you get that little bit of early pressure and you often force them into a form of defense which is terrible against blink stalker play (slow ass hydra's, spore's or even corruptors). Phoenix are also quite useful for lifting infestors, critical if you want to escape.
I do think the overall tendency in PvZ is to get a little less sentries, 6 or so usually is enough and leaves more gas for quick tech. Too many sentries is only a vulnerability against some strategies anyway and with good control 6 will do against roach play imo.
Edit: the idra game is a horrible example. P is stuck defending with his blink all game long and only gets aggresive and wins when he actually has colossi.
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I have been using similar style with a lot of blink stalker pressre but with less gates and faster 3rd and masing robo units while im harassing.
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I'll give this a shot. :O
I feel it's going to be a pain dealing with mass zergling/infestors and banelings.
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I've always thought upgraded mass Blink Stalkers were the way to go....looking at games of Kiwikaki, Naniwa, MC and Huk, you can see that a common theme amongst them is large Blink stalker timing attacks. The retention of the units are so good if you have the proper micro. Attack upgrades are always more beneficial than armor because with the proper micro, you shouldn't be taking health damage.
I've been wondering now though...how would Shield upgrades play into this? A good Blink stalker player would poke in and take minimal damage to shields and pull back. With the fast recharge time, would it be better to take a little less damage via Shield upgrades and then pull back to recharge and repeat? Or are attack upgrades better for the sustained damage?
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If they are going mutaling or infestorling you want armor over attack
If they are going anything else you want attack.
Honestly double forge might end up appropriate if they are going heavy melee comps. I used to always get only attack up to +3 asap since blink stalkers are so recyclable, but I got some ideas from HuK this past weekend and prioritizing armor makes your stalkers last forever against lings... he even got shield upgrade before attack, right after armor, in the finals on TDA. Just some food for thought
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On June 23 2011 00:58 Markwerf wrote:
Not going colossi is still a waste imo against roach play. You want the robo for obs anyway and investing in some colo just gives you so much more push power.
Against heavy ling strats this is awesome though as the only way for them to deal with it is infestors which come quite late letting toss expand faster then the zerg. It naturally transitions well into chargelot archon as well which deals with anything not using roaches.
I don't like the opening though, why would you go hallucination especially when you are only getting 3 sentries anyway? doesn't make sense. Stargate into this is much more reliable, you get that little bit of early pressure and you often force them into a form of defense which is terrible against blink stalker play (slow ass hydra's, spore's or even corruptors). Phoenix are also quite useful for lifting infestors, critical if you want to escape.
I do think the overall tendency in PvZ is to get a little less sentries, 6 or so usually is enough and leaves more gas for quick tech. Too many sentries is only a vulnerability against some strategies anyway and with good control 6 will do against roach play imo.
I disagree. If you go colossi too fast you won't have enough blink stalkers to really threaten him and he will take an economy lead with ease. You cut probes so you have to pressure a lot to justify it. If you want to go 2base colossi, sentry expo transitions a lot better.
Hallucination is only 100/100, I get those 3 sentries mostly for hallu scouting (which you really need later on to scout for tech, 4th/5th/Xth base and his tech to broodlord/ultra later on anyway) .
You get a scout of all possible expos, his army comp, his tech, everything in return so it's well worth it imo.
I don't get why you would want to go stargate into blink. Stargate is very expensive, will leave you vulnerable to hydra all-ins, delays your ht/colossi tech and is only good for harass. There's just no synergy between air and blink stalkers.
6 sentries is too few imo, you will inevitably lose sentries in a big battle and you better have some ff left for his reinforcements. You always need a lot of good forcefields in order to beat zerg, it's insane how fast your army dies without them.
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sorry but infestors ARE the hard counter to mass blink stalkers.
User was warned for this post
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move along folks, nothing to see here. Let this thread drift into obscurity. please. for the love of god.
+ Show Spoiler + been using a +2 timing off a FFE version of this for the past few weeks, its very strong. I dont want the metagame to start shifting to take it into account. Fast third is okay vs. this. Fast infestors is strong.
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This isn't exactly "new" mass blink stalker has been around for a while. Kiwikaki did a good job of using it PvZ when he used a mothership as well, but generally on maps like xel naga you can just get like 30 of them, run to each base snipe a hatch blink away snipe another hatch blink away snipe his main and blink away.
But yes generally blink stalker is easy to deal with when you get hydra roach (you just hug his army every time he blinks)
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Nice post.
I've seen a lot of pros use this strat. My fav example is MC vs Idra MLG Columbus game for 4th, where MC goes pure blink stalker in the late game.
At first i thought, "there is no way MC is guna pull this off". However, his attack upgrades were double Idras (if i remember correctly) and, with DT harass, he managed to take out Idra, even on a head on fight against hydra, roach with a few lings. Granted, Idra had a lot of supply invested in corruptors, but still his main army was very formidable and it was very interesting to see blink stalkers work so well against his composition.
I think this strat works the best on larger maps, or cross spawn on smaller maps, like meta, temple etc... From my experiences, 1200 ranked master league protoss, Zerg will still roach rush a lot on close spawns and 2 player spawn maps. So the blink stalker limited sentry opening is vulnerable and easily thwarted. However, if it is a cross spawn or bigger map, the zerg will usually play a macro game, and it gives you the time needed to build up a nice army for a timing attack around 9-10 min.
I have an average apm of about 170 throughout the entire game. I feel like, even with my apm that high, i need to increase my amp to pull off this build and still macro correctly/react to my opponents build. I feel like lower levelled players wouldn't be able to pull off this strat. And i think they might not appreciate a strat like this because of the high level of play it requires.
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How does this do vs infestor roach hydra?
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I've actually tried some of this. It seems very promising!
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Kiwi has been doing this for a bit so Idk how new it is in china but yeah, a 7 gate +2 blink attack is very strong.
If you watch Idra replay posted here you can see that Idra had the right comp but played like shit.
+ Show Spoiler +He went ventral sacs but tried to A-move his banelings instead for some reason??? He got infestors but never used fungal??? More a-move ???
Dude needs to incorporate some tactics with that macro.
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Why go Pylon, Pylon Forge?
Wouldn't Pylon then a forge be more efficient?
personally I found 9 pylon 12 forge to be the safest because if you do scout early pool aggression you can build a pylon near your nexus and place a cannon in your mineral line.
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Has anyone tried shield upgrades with this? In theory it seems like they would be far more useful than armour upgrades in particular considering you'll be blinking back weakened stalkers anyway, even though shield ups cost a lot more. Also, a logical late game transition would be templars and/or archons, which would benefit from these greatly
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Nice, looks really solid. Definitely able to do some terrible terrible damage
Blinkers definitely have so much possibilities to be explored. The mobility is incredible.
China Fighting.
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I'm also starting to love blink stalker play more and more in PvZ.
My variation on this is slightly different though, but I think it helps with the 2 main weaknesses of this build: fast 3rd and mass ling followed by infestors.
What I do is open with a FFE into really fast 6 gate +1 zealots. I still get all 4 gases though to start building up that gas supply. As soon as I warp in my first 6 zealots, I attack (or poke), while starting my TC back at home. A fast 3rd by the zerg gets into trouble by this, especially if all they have are lings. If they are able to fend it off easily with roach/ling, then it just means they haven't made enough drones to even make use out of their 3rd, and you're probably ahead on economy.
When the TC goes up I chrono blink and switch to stalker production, unless they've stayed purely on lings. I don't get any sentries. With the saved up gas I also tech to HT.
I feel that the early zealots are great because it forces more roaches (which is fine for you when you get blink stalker), and also it gives you more gas to get more HTs to combat infestors better.
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Yeah Mass Blink stalkers are awesome, I use them sometimes against Terran too and harrass harrass until I can get a HTs to engage the Bioball directly.
Blink stalkers have such an awesome mobility. When I encounter things like this when I play Zerg I think Ling Hydra does fine(not really a counter but it lets you survive) until you can get infestors.
A DT followup may be useful too, many Zergs just don´t sweem to remember that either templar tech is a natural followup to this and since you have highish weapons DTs are much more effective
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On June 23 2011 00:00 marvellosity wrote:
I'm only in Diamond and I've been using this build a while (the general 7 gate, blink, +2, obs). Does that mean I'm ahead of my time? :D
It is very, very good. I've not lost with it yet in about 10 attempts.
What I like is that it can be somewhat all-inish - never resume probe production, don't expand, CB gates, or you can expand behind it with blink, +2, and robo already up.
infestors shut this down. ling infestor
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yea zerg makes infestor and suddenly u are locked in your base till you get 10 high templars, cannot expand and are overall screwed
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I agree that the hallucinate may be a bit too early. If you're getting a robo and 2 obs....with the mentality that you're going with blink stalkers no matter what, you don't need the early scouting info.
You do however need the observers for burrowed roaches. If the Zerg scouted your blink stalkers, they're sure to get burrow for defensive purposes.
Also, I like the idea of following up with DT's if things go well. Which lends itself to not going stargate since spore crawlers negate the DT harass.
I like the strat and used to try it a lot. But that was when I was bad and didn't have very good control.
I think they key point is to make sure you hit before infestors....follow up with dt's once you get a third, and just make sure your home bases are defended well if the zerg starts zergling runby's.
I fear early game push strats though. Not sure how one would react to each accordingly as the guide doesn't really mention a response to any.
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By the way by going blink before colossus you're opening the path to HT (the only counter to infestors in protoss arsenal and very good against hydras), archons (good meat shield) and DT (for harassing purpose).
And you're able to apply some early pressure that can:
- give you an immediate victory
- delay zerg third
- or at least force unit production instead of droning.
Only problem: require pro-level micro
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This isn't chinese PvZ, this is a knock-off of what Protosses have been in doing in Korea for the past months. Go watch MC vs July on Shakuras, that game is now more than 3 months old and back then MC did the same stuff, FE into heavy attack upgraded blink stalker.
In the recent LG tournament 2 Protosses threw this style at DongRaeGu in the Ro4 and Ro8 respectively, TSL.Smart and IMYonghwa (PvZ trainings partner for NesTea) did the same 2 base blink stalker stuff, they did it in the most abusive way possible, staying on 2 base till the 20 minute mark.
DRG managed to take both series 2-1, imo the most reliable way to play against this is Creep-Roach-Hydra with a quick +2 Ranged. Yeah, Infestors are good, but you need a ton of spines to defend 6gates and the like, which makes mid-game transitions iffy.
I also disagree with Mark 
Pretty much any 2base Stargate opening allows Zerg to get to 50-60 drones very comfortably and 3 base incase he responds correctly. Hydras are good against Blink Stalkers if there's something in front of them + they are on creep.
Stargate also makes the Twilight Tech much worse. You force Spores that make any DT transition way less powerful and Hydras are decent defensively vs Blink Stalkers. Yeah Storm is good against Hydras, but noone does a high-templar mid-game against Zerg, because it's pretty crappy.
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On June 23 2011 02:36 Anihc wrote:
I'm also starting to love blink stalker play more and more in PvZ.
My variation on this is slightly different though, but I think it helps with the 2 main weaknesses of this build: fast 3rd and mass ling followed by infestors.
What I do is open with a FFE into really fast 6 gate +1 zealots. I still get all 4 gases though to start building up that gas supply. As soon as I warp in my first 6 zealots, I attack (or poke), while starting my TC back at home. A fast 3rd by the zerg gets into trouble by this, especially if all they have are lings. If they are able to fend it off easily with roach/ling, then it just means they haven't made enough drones to even make use out of their 3rd, and you're probably ahead on economy.
When the TC goes up I chrono blink and switch to stalker production, unless they've stayed purely on lings. I don't get any sentries. With the saved up gas I also tech to HT.
I feel that the early zealots are great because it forces more roaches (which is fine for you when you get blink stalker), and also it gives you more gas to get more HTs to combat infestors better.
They actually do open 6gate+1zealot in quite some games for these exact reasons. I'm still kind of new to that(read: I suck at it) and I'm trying to find optimal timings, so I decided to write down the old version (which is still good imo). I'll update the OP in the next couple of days because I'm liking your version a lot so far
This isn't chinese PvZ, this is a knock-off of what Protosses have been in doing in Korea for the past months. Go watch MC vs July on Shakuras, that game is now more than 3 months old and back then MC did the same stuff, FE into heavy attack upgraded blink stalker.
"Knock-off of what protosses have been doing in Korea for the past months" would have been a great title for sure, and would have been more accurate, but "Chinese PvZ" is just a little bit more catchy in my opinion. <3
They have refined it and they are the best at it, so it's Chinese to me
DRG managed to take both series 2-1, imo the most reliable way to play against this is Creep-Roach-Hydra with a quick +2 Ranged. Yeah, Infestors are good, but you need a ton of spines to defend 6gates and the like, which makes mid-game transitions iffy.
Yea, I agree. Especially staying at equal attack upgrades is really important for zerg.
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On June 23 2011 00:07 CrownRoyal wrote:
"stalkers are meant to tank" LOL
Man, blink stalkers never friggin die. They take some damage and get blunked to the back of the pack. Without infestors or a lot of speedlings vs a mediocre # of stalkers, you can't actually stay damaging the stalkers long enough to kill them.
Shield upgrades would actually be quite good on them, too. Since they always take that shield damage, then you blink them back.
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Blink Stalker heavy armies isn't anything new; although the builds are more refined and such, but attack heavy upgrade with Blink Stalkers vs Z has been around since the beta and the beginning of SC2. Genius' whole PvZ for quite some time was centered around Forge FE into heavy Blink Stalker play, since Z back then had 3 range Roach and really crappy Infestors. I think his PvZ was something like 90% back then (it was pretty insane).
The biggest difference I think today is the better unit control, more refined builds, and the increased usage of DTs mid to late game. However; this style of play vs Z is nothing new.
The counter to this was +2 attack Ling heavy into Ultra play, which isn't seen that often anymore because P's have been utilizing alot of anti-Ling stuff like Sentry heavy armies, Colossus deathballs, etc. In fact, Blink Stalker play was actually the most popular style of playing PvZ until people realized how hilarious it was that Z armies couldn't do jack diddly squat vs Colossus/Sentry balls (GSL 1 and 2 showed alot of that, particularly the game Idra lost to some no name P whose name escapes me).
On June 23 2011 00:25 tuestresfat wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2011 00:04 RobCorso wrote:
Personally my favorite strategy, but I prefer fast armor with blink stalkers; it flows better because stalkers are meant to tank (they don't have the highest dps if you know what I mean). Very nice build though. Thank you for doing the work for me :D I've had trouble getting this build correctly as I have never seen those players before. Stalkers can't tank for shit. They have below average dps that scales terribly with upgrades. Their greatest asset is their mobility.
Stalker DPS is about average; where they excel is their ability to always have a superior concave no matter what the circumstances unless you make a severe mistake in positioning/scouting. That's why Blink Stalkers > Hydras.
Stalkers can "pseudo" tank in that with Blink their survivability goes through the roof with proper unit control.
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I have the feeling that it's impossible to win against ling/bling/infestor using this strat.
how do you approach that?
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Mass ling with infestors could crush this IMO
Lings do great against stalkers and fungal growth could definetely do tons of damage to the stalkers and take out their ability to blink.
I would also add something else to kill lings more effectively, like colossus or high templar/zealots.
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I feel banelings and infestor fare far superior to zerglings and infestors when attacking stalkers. They just melt anything in a group
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I think this is nice but you dont have to claim on a "build" for this, you just have to transition to it at the midgame like "AbuseyourDNA" did in the Idra game...
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On June 23 2011 06:25 MooLen wrote:
I think this is nice but you dont have to claim on a "build" for this, you just have to transition to it at the midgame like "AbuseyourDNA" did in the Idra game...
AbuseYourDNA is an alias for StarTale Ace. Just throwing that out there.
Also i've been using the build for the past few days, and it has been working VERY well.... only lost twice in 20+ games vs zerg with it ^^
1350 diamond
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On June 23 2011 06:07 Blasterion wrote:
I feel banelings and infestor fare far superior to zerglings and infestors when attacking stalkers. They just melt anything in a group
xiaOt said in the event that happens, just mix in archons + dts.
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Archons fare extremely well in this aspect. DTs are hard countered by both units though. DTs will still take full damage if they kill the banelings. Archons though is a Awesome choice. i think the only viable choice vs Archons are roaches. Hydras are reasonable if on creep.
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I have tried mass blink stalker in PvZ with absolutely horrendous results. Possibly one of the worst possible strategies. Lings, roaches, hydras, infestors, and ultralisks all wreck stalkers while being extremely cost effective. Thanks for the write-up, but going mass blink stalker would be a regression in the metagame.
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On June 23 2011 06:44 lilky wrote:
I have tried mass blink stalker in PvZ with absolutely horrendous results. Possibly one of the worst possible strategies. Lings, roaches, hydras, infestors, and ultralisks all wreck stalkers while being extremely cost effective. Thanks for the write-up, but going mass blink stalker would be a regression in the metagame.
Then you are probably doing it wrong. There are a good number that are having great success of this. Abusing the Blinker's surivalbility is very important.
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Nice strat :D
One question, can you guys suggest the exact amount of stalkers that works best at blink for you?
For me, I found that more than a dozen and they will become a problem, but that's just me.
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On June 23 2011 06:07 Blasterion wrote:
I feel banelings and infestor fare far superior to zerglings and infestors when attacking stalkers. They just melt anything in a group
Just blink a stalker into a group of banelings and watch how many banelings become wasted.
I suggest this to everyone.. whenever you're playing against ling/bling/infestor, try to blink a stalker right on top of a group of banelings (if they're not using drop yet).
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On June 23 2011 06:31 Sajaki wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2011 06:25 MooLen wrote:
I think this is nice but you dont have to claim on a "build" for this, you just have to transition to it at the midgame like "AbuseyourDNA" did in the Idra game... AbuseYourDNA is an alias for StarTale Ace. Just throwing that out there. Also i've been using the build for the past few days, and it has been working VERY well.... only lost twice in 20+ games vs zerg with it ^^ 1350 diamond
It's actually the name that Grubby used to ladder under back in his WC3 days. Having said that ... no, I have no idea who actually owns the account. I'd been assuming that xiaOt just borrowed it from Grubby to play IdrA on the NA server, but, uhhh, guess Ace has been using it too?
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On June 23 2011 11:02 babylon wrote:
It's actually the name that Grubby used to ladder under back in his WC3 days. Having said that ... no, I have no idea who actually owns the account. I'd been assuming that xiaOt just borrowed it from Grubby to play IdrA on the NA server, but, uhhh, guess Ace has been using it too?
Very possible that its being used by multiple people. I've seen Ace use it in... I think StarsWar vs. Sjow.
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I would have to check to make sure, but I think if zerg opens spanishiwa into 2 base ling + infestor the several infestors will be up in time to deal with this, and without FF I'm pretty sure the stalkers will get rolled.
This is not to say its not a good build, but it might be a BO loss to ling+infestor into bling ultra.
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you got blunked son!
sorry I kid. This is a good strat. I'm zerg and when that upgrade timing hits and all my forces dissolve to pure blink stalkers just leaving me enough time to click on one of them and see the +2 or 3 before my vision fades... I wipe zerg tears from my eyes. I like the focus on the stalkers also because alot of lower level zergs (read: me) will misinterpret the build as a mass gate allin, especially with the slightly delayed 3rd. nice guide... jerk.
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Would try this out but i don't think it can work out for me since my micro is horrible 
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On June 23 2011 15:21 AKA. wrote:
I would have to check to make sure, but I think if zerg opens spanishiwa into 2 base ling + infestor the several infestors will be up in time to deal with this, and without FF I'm pretty sure the stalkers will get rolled.
This is not to say its not a good build, but it might be a BO loss to ling+infestor into bling ultra.
I actually don't find ling/bling/infestor into ultra hard to deal with. You already have blink which is the most important thing vs that style imo, and you also have the tech to go for colossi or templars. In the replays morrow goes for bling/ling and gets crushed (no pity, the bastard knocked out huk ^^)
I feel like infestors are only good to stop you from doing a lot of damage with the harass, but aren't all that great anymore once you can start feedbacking them.
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Seems pretty strong, I'll post some replays later
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On June 23 2011 16:00 Arcanefrost wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2011 15:21 AKA. wrote:
I would have to check to make sure, but I think if zerg opens spanishiwa into 2 base ling + infestor the several infestors will be up in time to deal with this, and without FF I'm pretty sure the stalkers will get rolled.
This is not to say its not a good build, but it might be a BO loss to ling+infestor into bling ultra. I actually don't find ling/bling/infestor into ultra hard to deal with. You already have blink which is the most important thing vs that style imo, and you also have the tech to go for colossi or templars. In the replays morrow goes for bling/ling and gets crushed (no pity, the bastard knocked out huk ^^) I feel like infestors are only good to stop you from doing a lot of damage with the harass, but aren't all that great anymore once you can start feedbacking them.
wait, how is blink the most important thing vs infestor/ling?
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On June 23 2011 16:12 travis wrote:
wait, how is blink the most important thing vs infestor/ling?
I meant that it's the most important thing vs ling/bling/infestor/ultra. I feel like the stalkers should always be the core of your army. I guess that when you go 6gate zealot like anihc chargelot/archon transitions a lot smoother, need some more testing on that.
Against a ling/infestor opener you will just need to control really well and make sure you blink away before he gets in range to fungal you. It will be kind of rough, but after quite some games with this strategy I don't feel uncomfortable against infestors anymore.
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On June 23 2011 16:44 Arcanefrost wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2011 16:12 travis wrote:
wait, how is blink the most important thing vs infestor/ling? I meant that it's the most important thing vs ling/bling/infestor/ultra. I feel like the stalkers should always be the core of your army. I guess that when you go 6gate zealot like anihc chargelot/archon transitions a lot smoother, need some more testing on that. Against a ling/infestor opener you will just need to control really well and make sure you blink away before he gets in range to fungal you. It will be kind of rough, but after quite some games with this strategy I don't feel uncomfortable against infestors anymore.
Don't really care how good your Stalker control is; if he goes fast +2 attack upgrade mass Ling/Infestor he's beating you every time unless he plays it really bad. If you ever get caught by a Fungal you just lost at least 20-30 supply of Stalker.
In fact, mass +attack Lings was how alot of Z's were stopping Genius who was doing an extremely similar build early in retail / late in beta.
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It doesn't seem much different from the standard except more greedy. However, I laughed at your "at work" part xD
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I also was playing this style for quite some days, my build is:
9pylon
13gate
14gas
15pylon
17core
20forge
20zealot
22pylon
22stalker
@100% forge start +1 weapon
second gas
around 30 supply 2 more gateways
expand
@100% +1weapon start +1armor
@100% +1 armor attack
line up twilight council to end right when +1armor finish
start +2 and blink
after warpin when floating 450minerals throw 3more gates
get one geyser at expansion
focus on stalker production
it kills roach ling allin very easly and is able to deal hell lots of pressure on zerg
Quite similiar
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On June 23 2011 18:34 SMMN wrote:
I also was playing this style for quite some days, my build is:
9pylon
13gate
14gas
15pylon
17core
20forge
20zealot
22pylon
22stalker
@100% forge start +1 weapon
second gas
around 30 supply 2 more gateways
expand
@100% +1weapon start +1armor
@100% +1 armor attack
line up twilight council to end right when +1armor finish
start +2 and blink
after warpin when floating 450minerals throw 3more gates
get one geyser at expansion
focus on stalker production
it kills roach ling allin very easly and is able to deal hell lots of pressure on zerg
Quite similiar
There is no way that beats roach ling allin.
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this seems like a very similar variant of kiwikakis build where he blocks the entrance. anyways gonna try it! :D
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Updated, a 6gate is indeed a lot better because you can punish a fast third, and if you see ling/infestor you have the option to go chargelot/archon if you prefer that.
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Observations from a zerg player:
This style has been around for a while, but recently it has become more common, at least on eu-ladder (diamond and masters).
It varies a lot how good you protoss guys can pull this off tho. If a player has played a colossus death-ball style for months now, where you view your army as super vulnerable if not in a tight group, and the level of micro has been limited, then probably you will need to adjust a lot. I think this style is more demanding for the tosses, but it also might be more rewarding. Also, I think the mindset behind this strat is closer to how toss will be played against zerg in the future.
In any XvZ MU the fight is about controlling the zerg. This is a hard concept to get but it is very obvious from a zergs perspective. Most protosses seem to behave like; build = gameplan, and are just more or less executing a script with little or no deviation, and with little regard to the fact that the zerg is reacting to what they are doing every second of the game, and is always predicting what he is doing next. Ideally, you should be in zergs face all the time. Of course, this is not usually possible, but the stalker-heavy builds allow at least for some sort of tempo-control in contrast to the tech builds like the colossus builds, which open up for a deeper and more demanding, but also more rewarding way of playing the MU.
What strikes me in this thread is how the stalker is purely evaluated based on its ability to handle the zerg army. Imo, the strengths of the stalker is its ability to be a threat even when it is not really a perfect attack-timing, it's ability to make the zerg blind, and it's ability to use the terrain of the map to it's advantage. If you play a style like this, then a stalker standing around not doing anything might be a severely misused stalker.
As of the colossus mentioned, i feel it might be good to get colossus for the late-game, but the composition will work differently because you are actually highly mobile even if the colossus is slower than the stalkers. On maps like xel'naga or shattered temple you might see the opportunity to walk straight into his main with stalkers and colossus and fight him as he is trying to push up his own ramp when you don't have all the stupid sentries and immortals to stand in the way of your army, and get out again.
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Goddamn, I have seen this strategy used a lot on the SEA servers. It is so annoying to deal with. I knew from the very start of the use of mass blink stalkers that it will be tough for zergs but I never expected it to have no zerg hard counter, at all. Maybe ultra infestor? even then you can snipe ultralisks and good luck to any zerg surviving with ling festor long enough to get ultras. I feel at the moment, the only real answer to blink stalkers is to just all in with everything as you see them. Either that or superior micro, which I don't really have =9
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
On June 23 2011 10:54 iChau wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2011 06:07 Blasterion wrote:
I feel banelings and infestor fare far superior to zerglings and infestors when attacking stalkers. They just melt anything in a group Just blink a stalker into a group of banelings and watch how many banelings become wasted. I suggest this to everyone.. whenever you're playing against ling/bling/infestor, try to blink a stalker right on top of a group of banelings (if they're not using drop yet).
Lol. This is a total revelation to me! :>
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Hmm I'll definately have to try this more. Isn't it a good idea to just skip sentries completely when going for this build after a forge FE with full wall-in?
For example shakuras or tal darim you want to have a full lock in anyway and by skipping the sentries all together you can leave your wall intact while you blink out. All you have to do is to make sure your scout probe is hidden then so you can get a pylon somewhere on the map for some reinforcements.
Skipping sentries completely would make the timing attack much stronger i think because it comes earlier and you aren't wasting a building so early that you have to knock out, against ling play you usually want to transition into zealot/archon/stalker anyway in which I often feel forcefields are near useless anyway.
This style does seem perfect to punish quick thirds after FFE, they either have roaches which are slow at that time and blink excels against or they have lings in which case a round of zealots with +1 or +2 will absolutely murder it.
The best way to counter this as zerg is probably roach/infestor I think. Ling/infestor seems a better counter at first but the problem with that combo is that P can easily transition into something that deals with it, they simply turn their gateway production to zealot, archon which stomps anything that isn't using roaches.
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Honestly, the style of blink stalker pressure has been developing in Korea for months., You can't go ahead and call this a chinese build, because 1 chinese person did this build. Look at Korea, alost every protoss has been developing this for a long time. (eg. MC, Huk)
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On June 23 2011 21:35 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2011 10:54 iChau wrote:On June 23 2011 06:07 Blasterion wrote:
I feel banelings and infestor fare far superior to zerglings and infestors when attacking stalkers. They just melt anything in a group Just blink a stalker into a group of banelings and watch how many banelings become wasted. I suggest this to everyone.. whenever you're playing against ling/bling/infestor, try to blink a stalker right on top of a group of banelings (if they're not using drop yet). Lol. This is a total revelation to me! :>
I never thought of this! wow good trick to know
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Yeah... 6-gate blink stalkers is all I ever hear about when watching korean PvZ...
I wouldn't exactly call this some revolutionary chinese build...
It is effective though. Blink Stalkers in general seem way too effective for their cost. I often lose fights where i have 2/2 Roaches vs 1/0 blink stalkers...
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"Do you always get weapon upgrades?"
In most cases weapons is better, but like some people pointed out correctly (thanks!) armor is better against mutaling and against heavy ling/infestor styles it's also very viable.
I would like to contend this point, or at least part of it. When using Blink Stalkers as a primary force, shield upgrades are superior to armor upgrades; especially if you intend to transition into archons. The reasoning here is simple: when properly executed, stalkers should be blinking away from the engagement as their shields deplete, to prevent taking damage which cannot be recovered. Having higher shield upgrades means your shields last longer so you can endure the punishment that much longer. This transitions really well into archons because their extremely high shields benefit tremendously from the upgrade.
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"They use a strategy that seems rather unorthodox on the NA/EU server"
Every wc3 player that switched to toss -> mass blink stalker :D
Having in mind that wc3 was huge in China, no surprise here.
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How do you do with this build when you face mutalisks?
I know blink stalkers should counter it but let's say you can't attack your opponent because he has superb amount of lings + lots of spinecrawlers. And mutalisks all around so you need blink stalkers to stay up in food and be able to defend, even if you manage to snipe all mutalisks doesn't that puts you behind? I tried this thing but got first owned by like speedling/mutalisk transition into ultralisk/infestor/lings, I just want to know how to counter it.
Else the old regular roach/hydra compositon or anything with those in it this build totally demolishes, really hardcore. =
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On June 24 2011 01:02 eYeball wrote:How do you do with this build when you face mutalisks? I know blink stalkers should counter it but let's say you can't attack your opponent because he has superb amount of lings + lots of spinecrawlers. And mutalisks all around so you need blink stalkers to stay up in food and be able to defend, even if you manage to snipe all mutalisks doesn't that puts you behind? I tried this thing but got first owned by like speedling/mutalisk transition into ultralisk/infestor/lings, I just want to know how to counter it. Else the old regular roach/hydra compositon or anything with those in it this build totally demolishes, really hardcore. =
Archons are super good against mutalisks and Blink stalkers kind of set you up for it.
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On June 24 2011 01:15 Blasterion wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2011 01:02 eYeball wrote:How do you do with this build when you face mutalisks? I know blink stalkers should counter it but let's say you can't attack your opponent because he has superb amount of lings + lots of spinecrawlers. And mutalisks all around so you need blink stalkers to stay up in food and be able to defend, even if you manage to snipe all mutalisks doesn't that puts you behind? I tried this thing but got first owned by like speedling/mutalisk transition into ultralisk/infestor/lings, I just want to know how to counter it. Else the old regular roach/hydra compositon or anything with those in it this build totally demolishes, really hardcore. = Archons are super good against mutalisks and Blink stalkers kind of set you up for it.
@Blasterion, with my previous point, you need dark templar shrine to go archons anyways, so at least use them to harass. Not with the army, of course. Although sniping infestors WOULD be nice
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question i am doing this build but have trouble vs hydra roach compo what should i do?
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On June 24 2011 01:45 pownage wrote:
question i am doing this build but have trouble vs hydra roach compo what should i do?
That is a hard question to answer. Do you have a replay?
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This is a very allin type strat that if you don't do dmg with falls on its face. Hydra roach does just fine against it and can deny your third till you starve out. I'm not saying its not effective but you need to be transitioning and make smart trades because you will lose (see idra cruncher in the col tournament the name escapes me atm) I suggest switching to templar if you manage to get up your third.
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On June 24 2011 01:45 pownage wrote:
question i am doing this build but have trouble vs hydra roach compo what should i do?
vs hydra/roach you want to just get colossi, stalker/colossus is still awesome against roach/hydra even if you don't have as many sentries.
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On June 24 2011 02:07 Markwerf wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2011 01:45 pownage wrote:
question i am doing this build but have trouble vs hydra roach compo what should i do?
vs hydra/roach you want to just get colossi, stalker/colossus is still awesome against roach/hydra even if you don't have as many sentries.
Archons and Chargelots also do great. The power of archons is usually overlooked
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On June 24 2011 01:57 CajunMan wrote:
This is a very allin type strat that if you don't do dmg with falls on its face. Hydra roach does just fine against it and can deny your third till you starve out. I'm not saying its not effective but you need to be transitioning and make smart trades because you will lose (see idra cruncher in the col tournament the name escapes me atm) I suggest switching to templar if you manage to get up your third.
The timings guarantee that you'll be able to do damage. Hydra/roach is too immobile off creep (well, the hydras are). If he moves towards your base to attack, you move out, kill the roaches with kiting (even if they have speed) and by using blink, and when there's not that many roaches left, the hydras are not that scary.
You don't want to trade an army for an army though. In fact, you shouldn't be losing that many units to a roach/hydra army, you should be slowly withering him down by using blink. Eventually his army will become small. You should have some kind of back-up plan by now. For example: Colossi, High Templars/Archons, Dark Templars.
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On June 24 2011 02:22 iChau wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2011 01:57 CajunMan wrote:
This is a very allin type strat that if you don't do dmg with falls on its face. Hydra roach does just fine against it and can deny your third till you starve out. I'm not saying its not effective but you need to be transitioning and make smart trades because you will lose (see idra cruncher in the col tournament the name escapes me atm) I suggest switching to templar if you manage to get up your third. The timings guarantee that you'll be able to do damage. Hydra/roach is too immobile off creep (well, the hydras are). If he moves towards your base to attack, you move out, kill the roaches with kiting (even if they have speed) and by using blink, and when there's not that many roaches left, the hydras are not that scary. You don't want to trade an army for an army though. In fact, you shouldn't be losing that many units to a roach/hydra army, you should be slowly withering him down by using blink. Eventually his army will become small. You should have some kind of back-up plan by now. For example: Colossi, High Templars/Archons, Dark Templars.
I find DT=> Archons are really strong to transition into. Especially if the zerg is ling heavy, which they might be if they see you go stalker heavy
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On June 24 2011 02:31 Blasterion wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2011 02:22 iChau wrote:On June 24 2011 01:57 CajunMan wrote:
This is a very allin type strat that if you don't do dmg with falls on its face. Hydra roach does just fine against it and can deny your third till you starve out. I'm not saying its not effective but you need to be transitioning and make smart trades because you will lose (see idra cruncher in the col tournament the name escapes me atm) I suggest switching to templar if you manage to get up your third. The timings guarantee that you'll be able to do damage. Hydra/roach is too immobile off creep (well, the hydras are). If he moves towards your base to attack, you move out, kill the roaches with kiting (even if they have speed) and by using blink, and when there's not that many roaches left, the hydras are not that scary. You don't want to trade an army for an army though. In fact, you shouldn't be losing that many units to a roach/hydra army, you should be slowly withering him down by using blink. Eventually his army will become small. You should have some kind of back-up plan by now. For example: Colossi, High Templars/Archons, Dark Templars. I find DT=> Archons are really strong to transition into. Especially if the zerg is ling heavy, which they might be if they see you go stalker heavy
Transitioning into archons especially when made from DT is awful against roach play imo. Archons simply suck vs pure roach/hydra (+corruptor/infestor). Roaches have such a size that they don't really take splash damage from archons, without splash archons are just not that good as even against bio their damage is terrible.
Zealots and archons only have a place in PvZ imo when they go with melee based play, against something else it's not worth it.
The beauty of opening blink stalkers imo is the powerful transitions it has, stalkers are good in any combo against zerg. Get colossi vs roach/hydra play (ranged ups) and zealot/archon against melee based play (ling/bling/infestor/muta whatever).
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I guess it definatly depends on the map and the situation because someone with good creep spread can bottle neck you into only a few places to attack without being surrounded. Also depending on the map the zerg can take his third and just put on the hurt with constant rienforcing. All situationals I suppose I'm not saying its bad but this isn't a cureall. And you should be afraid of roaches if you can't control the creep spread they are damn fast. The biggest point I'm making is plan to take a third at all costs if he blocks yours all game there will come a point where he is 2-2 maxed and you won't be able to compete straight up anymore.
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I've been experimenting with this style and I've found that when you transition and get your third base up the tech choice is very important. Roaches are surprisingly tanky to storms and you absolutely need collossi. This is probably the only situation that I would favor collossus over storm.
Once you get to 4-5 bases you might as well get both ! This strategy requires high apm too. Caution is advised
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On June 24 2011 02:46 Markwerf wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2011 02:31 Blasterion wrote:On June 24 2011 02:22 iChau wrote:On June 24 2011 01:57 CajunMan wrote:
This is a very allin type strat that if you don't do dmg with falls on its face. Hydra roach does just fine against it and can deny your third till you starve out. I'm not saying its not effective but you need to be transitioning and make smart trades because you will lose (see idra cruncher in the col tournament the name escapes me atm) I suggest switching to templar if you manage to get up your third. The timings guarantee that you'll be able to do damage. Hydra/roach is too immobile off creep (well, the hydras are). If he moves towards your base to attack, you move out, kill the roaches with kiting (even if they have speed) and by using blink, and when there's not that many roaches left, the hydras are not that scary. You don't want to trade an army for an army though. In fact, you shouldn't be losing that many units to a roach/hydra army, you should be slowly withering him down by using blink. Eventually his army will become small. You should have some kind of back-up plan by now. For example: Colossi, High Templars/Archons, Dark Templars. I find DT=> Archons are really strong to transition into. Especially if the zerg is ling heavy, which they might be if they see you go stalker heavy Transitioning into archons especially when made from DT is awful against roach play imo. Archons simply suck vs pure roach/hydra (+corruptor/infestor). Roaches have such a size that they don't really take splash damage from archons, without splash archons are just not that good as even against bio their damage is terrible. Zealots and archons only have a place in PvZ imo when they go with melee based play, against something else it's not worth it. The beauty of opening blink stalkers imo is the powerful transitions it has, stalkers are good in any combo against zerg. Get colossi vs roach/hydra play (ranged ups) and zealot/archon against melee based play (ling/bling/infestor/muta whatever).
Stalkers are bad vs ling/bling/ultra... like really bad.
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On June 24 2011 03:45 QTIP. wrote:
Stalkers are bad vs ling/bling/ultra... like really bad.
They are great against it. Vs that style you should either go chargelot/archon, or blink with templar/archon or colossi.
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It's actually the other way around, its not 1 chiense protoss, all top chinese protoss's have been using this build since March . You guys just aren't familiar with the scene there or the forums or the top level community.
For the infestor+ling unit combination question, you need to transition to archons templar or if you are confident in your forcefield micro and you have ENOUGH GAS to spare more sentry collosus.
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I love this build, but I feel like it falls pretty hard to a heavy ling style, especially if the Zerg player is going for fast infestors.
It's one of those builds where yeah, it's good, but it's weak to the same things that conventional builds are weak to, and it's not as strong as a more conventional build is against more standard roach play.
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On June 23 2011 00:25 tuestresfat wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2011 00:04 RobCorso wrote:
Personally my favorite strategy, but I prefer fast armor with blink stalkers; it flows better because stalkers are meant to tank (they don't have the highest dps if you know what I mean). Very nice build though. Thank you for doing the work for me :D I've had trouble getting this build correctly as I have never seen those players before. Stalkers can't tank for shit. They have below average dps that scales terribly with upgrades. Their greatest asset is their mobility.
I think the point isn't that they are meant to tank, the point is that their survivability is what makes them so good, and armor increases this.
Perfect blink micro can make you effectively able to pool the entire hp of your stalker force, and armor increases the pool as a whole. An early armor upgrade lets you take an additional hit before needing to blink, usually. So if your reactions are a little slow it's probably better to go armor first - but if your reactions are slow then going blink stalker probably isn't best.
Granted, attack is still probably better most of the time, as killing the enemy off 1-3 seconds earlier means 1-3 seconds less damage overall - probably saving just as much damage.
As someone mentioned earlier in the thread, it really comes down to what you are against.
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On June 24 2011 05:37 Nevuk wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2011 00:25 tuestresfat wrote:On June 23 2011 00:04 RobCorso wrote:
Personally my favorite strategy, but I prefer fast armor with blink stalkers; it flows better because stalkers are meant to tank (they don't have the highest dps if you know what I mean). Very nice build though. Thank you for doing the work for me :D I've had trouble getting this build correctly as I have never seen those players before. Stalkers can't tank for shit. They have below average dps that scales terribly with upgrades. Their greatest asset is their mobility. I think the point isn't that they are meant to tank, the point is that their survivability is what makes them so good, and armor increases this. Perfect blink micro can make you effectively able to pool the entire hp of your stalker force, and armor increases the pool as a whole. An early armor upgrade lets you take an additional hit before needing to blink, usually. So if your reactions are a little slow it's probably better to go armor first - but if your reactions are slow then going blink stalker probably isn't best. Granted, attack is still probably better most of the time, as killing the enemy off 1-3 seconds earlier means 1-3 seconds less damage overall - probably saving just as much damage. As someone mentioned earlier in the thread, it really comes down to what you are against.
This just makes zero sense because ideally you're blinking your stalkers back before they take any health damage, ie. armor will have no effect.
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On June 24 2011 05:41 Shifft wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2011 05:37 Nevuk wrote:On June 23 2011 00:25 tuestresfat wrote:On June 23 2011 00:04 RobCorso wrote:
Personally my favorite strategy, but I prefer fast armor with blink stalkers; it flows better because stalkers are meant to tank (they don't have the highest dps if you know what I mean). Very nice build though. Thank you for doing the work for me :D I've had trouble getting this build correctly as I have never seen those players before. Stalkers can't tank for shit. They have below average dps that scales terribly with upgrades. Their greatest asset is their mobility. I think the point isn't that they are meant to tank, the point is that their survivability is what makes them so good, and armor increases this. Perfect blink micro can make you effectively able to pool the entire hp of your stalker force, and armor increases the pool as a whole. An early armor upgrade lets you take an additional hit before needing to blink, usually. So if your reactions are a little slow it's probably better to go armor first - but if your reactions are slow then going blink stalker probably isn't best. Granted, attack is still probably better most of the time, as killing the enemy off 1-3 seconds earlier means 1-3 seconds less damage overall - probably saving just as much damage. As someone mentioned earlier in the thread, it really comes down to what you are against. This just makes zero sense because ideally you're blinking your stalkers back before they take any health damage, ie. armor will have no effect.
The ideal happening in fights at the 12 minute mark is pretty unlikely. This kind of makes a case for shields over armor, though. (But shields are as expensive as weapons + armor combined).
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Here are some replays of me (currently 1330 masters) vs fairly high rated masters zergs with this style, some notes
1. I didn't follow the new updated BO posted in the OP, but generally same build.
2. I used the blink stalkers for the most part, as being defensive rather than offensive because the people I played were fairly aggressive.
Game 1: vs 1550 zerg - lots of drops from z
http://drop.sc/16054
Game2: vs 1390 z with 300 bonus pool
http://drop.sc/16053
let me know if you guys can help me refine using this, I LOVE it :D
edit: I find that using the blink stalkers to secure your third and turtle up while poking around with blink stalkers and dts is soooooooooooooooooooooooooooo good.
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This looks really good, one question
Can this build hold off against Roach/Ling aggression/all in ? it usually come around 8 mins
No offense, just wondering, im new here and usually die because of those aggression
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On June 24 2011 18:00 skyafterrain wrote:
This looks really good, one question
Can this build hold off against Roach/Ling aggression/all in ? it usually come around 8 mins
No offense, just wondering, im new here and usually die because of those aggression
I´m basicly wondering the same thing since I´ve used this build some ladder games but the result have been a roach all in or the Z just overwhelming my base with lings with or without +1.
Is it just my scouting that´s failing? Just add more cannons if I get a hint that a cheese/all in is coming?
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I've loved my blink stalkers since the very beginning and copied some of Kiwikaki's builds way back...before everyone and their mother started bunkering towards colossus/voidray, which I, personally, have always found rather boring.
The main point I want to point out and that I deem to be very important for many of the non-grandmaster-people ( basicly everyone I guess? ) is the following: we all watch pro-gamers day in, day out, watch zergs macro their giant ling/roach/whatever forces up and then we doubt that anything that isn't deathball play could possibly stand a chance against this constant flow of cheap, cost effective units. Nevertheless, what I think many don't take into account is, that we DO NOT play vs zergs that have macro and multitasking like idra and ret. The reason why most skilled zergs have managed to outmacro us is, that we LET them by playing super-defensively. I mean, not moving out of the base before having a 200/200 stalker/colossus/voidray ball surely doesn't test the multitasking of our opponents.
Blink stalkers is the exact opposite playstyle. It is really annoying to play against and is supposed to keep your opponent on his toes. Macro while blinking isn't easy, but neither is macro while defending against blinking. A style like this might seem weak when watching super-skilled zergs in GSL, but on "our" skill-level it really serves the purpose of forcing zerg into making mistakes! If you can macro up to 3 base and tech behind constant blink stalker pressure then zergs will have a much harder time outmacroing you.
On the problem of forge FE: personally, I'm currently playing around a lot with one gate FE in single player...if you've seen socke destroy ret on shakuras with a one gate FE into blink rush, then you'll know that this can be extremely strong. This does NOT mean that forge FE is inferiour, it's an alternative approach that serves two distinct purposes:
a) Make fast 6 gate blink viable on maps that aren't good for forge FE
b) Hide your tech as well as possible: one gate FE is inferior economicly but should - in theory - force zerg into a more defensive opening since a one gate FE opening build does NOT exclude a one base all-in, while forge FE does.
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Just wanted to say how excited I am to see Xiaot (AbuseYourDNA).
Chinese Warcraftlers for the Win!
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No real need for a build order as you can just say two-base Blink Stalker with quick attack upgrades and everyone is gonna know exactly what that means.
Problem with this strategy is that you NEED insane micro, obviously to you I know. But recommending this as a general build probably is not the best idea for ladder.
Plus this is an aggro intensive build that focuses all your attention to Stalker micro with room for little else. You simply cannot macro as effectively while doing this, I don't care if you are masters or whatever. Which simply makes this an all-in that you cannot easily recover from.
Either that or the slow and weak attacks of the Stalkers will simply be overwhelmed by Hydralisk the second you look away.
For that reason I wouldn't use this as your standard build versus Zerg, learn some less micro-intensive builds like the 6-gate timing attack, add Blink in and transitioning into mass Stalker would probably be more safe and stop you from getting into bad macro habits.
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On June 24 2011 18:32 sleepingdog wrote:
On the problem of forge FE: personally, I'm currently playing around a lot with one gate FE in single player...if you've seen socke destroy ret on shakuras with a one gate FE into blink rush, then you'll know that this can be extremely strong. This does NOT mean that forge FE is inferiour, it's an alternative approach that serves two distinct purposes:
a) Make fast 6 gate blink viable on maps that aren't good for forge FE
b) Hide your tech as well as possible: one gate FE is inferior economicly but should - in theory - force zerg into a more defensive opening since a one gate FE opening build does NOT exclude a one base all-in, while forge FE does.
I've been playing around with this too. I do think forge fe is better on maps that allow it though. The 1gate fe into blink build basically works the same, but it's a lot weaker to a roach/ling all-in imo making ti pretty risky. If the map is really bad for forge fe I usually dt expand, and then transition into blink and weapon upgrades.
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lovecd blink micro against dimaga was amazing. but if you make the slightest mistake you lose all ur army and lose.
this is definatly not noob friendly, and as a low masters player im not even close to confident about doing something like this.
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Canada13389 Posts
Awesome video thank you for linking it :D Off to 1v1 the AI to try to learn that opening and Plan
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There was also some discussion of this build here: Kiwikaki's 7 gate +2 attack blink PvZ(though generally consensus is that it's not kiwi's. Everyone has been doing this build lately in PvZ. FXOz did it in the GSTL, Sen just did it on his stream (messing around playing protoss) it's hit me on ladder a bunch. I'm not really sure what's the best response. I'd say rushes infestors and upgraded lings as well, but it's pretty hard to scout. If you see both the twilight council and the robo it could be collosus tech with fast blink.
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On June 23 2011 00:51 ABCSFirebird wrote:
Xiaot vs IdrA isn't the above mentioned bo?
Yeah it is delayed and more passive, but I really like his style. I would suggest the replay to anyone interested in this build. His Force Fields were godly, and I like how he implemented a few Immortals and 8 Sentries in there to deny any Roach flooding.
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Tried it a couple of times today...
I'm high diamond with 90~110 and I really can't blink micro and macro well...
I feel also it's pretty hard to transition out of mass blink stalkers if you don't do a ton of damage or kill the opponent right when you attack with the +2/blink stalkers.
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On June 25 2011 07:08 UmbeXCII wrote:
Tried it a couple of times today...
I'm high diamond with 90~110 and I really can't blink micro and macro well...
I feel also it's pretty hard to transition out of mass blink stalkers if you don't do a ton of damage or kill the opponent right when you attack with the +2/blink stalkers.
This build basically set you up to many Tech paths, you have TC/ Robo
I think this build is really good cause you got a lot better upgrade than your opp, with blink, you can easily destroy all of zerg army but it also need a lot of skill to play, which I basically dont have at the moment, still I can pull something out of this build, at least this build does not suggest you to turtle until 200/200. You have to pressure Zerg with somethings !
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On June 25 2011 09:18 skyafterrain wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2011 07:08 UmbeXCII wrote:
Tried it a couple of times today...
I'm high diamond with 90~110 and I really can't blink micro and macro well...
I feel also it's pretty hard to transition out of mass blink stalkers if you don't do a ton of damage or kill the opponent right when you attack with the +2/blink stalkers. This build basically set you up to many Tech paths, you have TC/ Robo I think this build is really good cause you got a lot better upgrade than your opp, with blink, you can easily destroy all of zerg army but it also need a lot of skill to play, which I basically dont have at the moment, still I can pull something out of this build, at least this build does not suggest you to turtle until 200/200. You have to pressure Zerg with somethings !
Yeah, I agree, I feel this build works best with a clear timing attack in mind around the 10 minute mark and then transition into an expo with either Colossus or Templar. But you must be proactive with this build in order for it to work.
As someone already posted, blink stalkers work best with a lot of space to play around with.
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i dont really see how this build is any new... early 2 bases lings with good upgrades infestors crush this (aka destiny forever 2 bases style). This basicly a way trying to apply TvZ into PvZ using the DPS of well upgraded stalks and blink mobility which 2-2 lings +fugnal just destroy it.
Any abusing mobility? u clearly hvnt seen blink stalkers +mothership on NA sever... Compare to that build, this one is just child play.
Not trying to bash/troll but I strongly recommend people dont use it else you just gona hear more cry about infestor imbalance (which i think is ballanced as a high level NA Protoss)
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I really think that Defensive Roach Hydra into Neural Infestor should rock this, but you need to either end it before collo or get that neural timing before the collo comes.
If they go Templar after i think that you would go faster T3 maybe, and try to avoid getting your infestors feed backed.
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Twlight/FXOz did something similar in the team league IIRC.
I don't think a lot of protoss realize this but ling/bling to counter stalker uses up a LOT of larvae which is part of the reason it's not a hard-counter like most people seem to believe. It's also quite easy to blink a single stalker into the banelings to cut down the numbers.
This isn't just a "200/200 blink stalker push lol" it's supposed to put pressure on the Zerg abusing blink stalker's mobility, take a 3rd (albeit late), and transition into your more standard PvZ play. You don't just crash this army into a Zerg's army for the most part (although blink stalkers fare surprisingly well against all their "counters" if you have gosu micro), you blink around and pick off whatever you can while you take a 3rd. It's a really strong build, but is VERY unforgiving. As a Zerg player I can say it's a build that can cause a lot of grief, but it's also a build where mismicroing can REALLY screw the toss over. Also good to note is that if you scout ling/bling/infestor you can transition into Archons/HTs (or Colossus if you scout roach/hydra) whenever necessary. It's a really strong timing attack that actually has a follow-up, although the Chinese version does rely on doing some damage to keep the Zerg from just overwhelming you.
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:X hit back on my browser and it reposted, my bad.
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I've actually been following this up with HT/Archon instead of the double robo colossus as storms/feedback seems to solve most of my problems and because I already have the twilight council, it's a nice transition.
It also feels less vulnerable because if you didn't do a ton of damage with the blink stalkers, you feel weak with the double robo colossus until you hit a good number.
Also, storm drops are hilariously good.
The only thing I'm worried about is mass, mass muta. Can't do anything with storm if they fly over your units. I've hit one spire player and I got lucky and blinked up into his main and sniped his spire before he could get a critical mass of mutas.
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On June 25 2011 09:40 NB wrote:
i dont really see how this build is any new... early 2 bases lings with good upgrades infestors crush this (aka destiny forever 2 bases style). This basicly a way trying to apply TvZ into PvZ using the DPS of well upgraded stalks and blink mobility which 2-2 lings +fugnal just destroy it.
Any abusing mobility? u clearly hvnt seen blink stalkers +mothership on NA sever... Compare to that build, this one is just child play.
Not trying to bash/troll but I strongly recommend people dont use it else you just gona hear more cry about infestor imbalance (which i think is ballanced as a high level NA Protoss)
If you see he blindly went for ling/infestor with your 6gate push, you can go chargelot/archon which solves your problem. The 6gate opener is awesome because infestor/ling or a fast third aren't that good anymore.
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mass blink stalkers might be better than my similar 2 base chargelot/collosi
i use collosi due to love of the unit really, and build stalkers just as muta/corruptor counter
these guys are just amazing... i wonder if i can beat them PvP
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The strength of the stalker heavy builds is not how they beat the zerg army. Speaking as a zerg, if I just get burrow, I can pretty much be safe until observers are out no matter what composition I get ( within reason). The strength is all the cool other advantages you get by doing this. The way of thinking shown in this thread is why the pvz mu has gone from being protoss dominated to not seemingly imbalanced at all. You tosses need to grow, no offence, or this forum will be filled with tosses complaining about imbalance very soon. I think this thread shows a very wrong headspace.
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On June 23 2011 02:39 QTIP. wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2011 00:00 marvellosity wrote:
I'm only in Diamond and I've been using this build a while (the general 7 gate, blink, +2, obs). Does that mean I'm ahead of my time? :D
It is very, very good. I've not lost with it yet in about 10 attempts.
What I like is that it can be somewhat all-inish - never resume probe production, don't expand, CB gates, or you can expand behind it with blink, +2, and robo already up. infestors shut this down. ling infestor
lol i happen to go infestors always unlike some zergs who still prefer mutas
this build freaks me out though... when there are cliffs to abuse
i can't possibly defend against such a mobile force of stalkers without having my faster lings fly away from my infestors.
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this build is excellent just need alot of apm to do it lolol. also mass burrowed roaches with ups and good micro from zerg can beat this.
EDIT: by beat i mean KILL u
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On June 25 2011 19:17 panda_inc wrote:
this build is excellent just need alot of apm to do it lolol. also mass burrowed roaches with ups and good micro from zerg can beat this.
EDIT: by beat i mean KILL u
Didn't this build provide you an observer.
With equivalent micro, I believe Blink stalkers own Roaches.
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^
you forget zerg players can micro and do timing attacks too.
the weakness of this build is the lack of sentries.
you can blink all you like but when there is 40 roaches in your face wtf are you gonna do.
if you do have a robotics it will actually reduce ur chances of successfully holding it because you have less units. You need very good micro a few sentries and good cannon placement to beat the roach push.
EDIT: its a really good build, what I meant by apm earlier was that you have to be very active and careful and tactical with your stalkers. personally I prefer other easier to execute strategies because I feel this strategy can be too risky if you're not careful; and I don't recommend this build at all to players below diamond. Even diamond players will prolly struggle to macro properly while doing this build.
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Added some more stuff. Thanks for the day9 link
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I think that this style will become more popular with the new maps: FFE is more viable on some of those than some maps in the pool, Slag Pits and Delta Quadrant are not good for this and will likely be removed (also letting people reorganize their vetoes). Most of the maps have cliffs accessible from low ground as long as you have vision (while this may seem obvious, keep in mind that it is easier to see the low-to-high-ground-blink coming on maps like Shattered Temple, Xel'Naga Caverns, and Metalopolis). The abundance of destructible rocks also works in favor of blink stalkers as well.
I may be wrong, as we don't know all that much about play on the Season 3 maps, but this seems likely in my opinion.
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On June 24 2011 18:32 sleepingdog wrote:
On the problem of forge FE: personally, I'm currently playing around a lot with one gate FE in single player...if you've seen socke destroy ret on shakuras with a one gate FE into blink rush, then you'll know that this can be extremely strong. This does NOT mean that forge FE is inferiour, it's an alternative approach that serves two distinct purposes:
a) Make fast 6 gate blink viable on maps that aren't good for forge FE
b) Hide your tech as well as possible: one gate FE is inferior economicly but should - in theory - force zerg into a more defensive opening since a one gate FE opening build does NOT exclude a one base all-in, while forge FE does.
Your post might be blue, but that's not how Zerg early game works.
1gate FE goes down at 5:10, up until that point there is exactly _0_ deviation in what a Zerg does between FE and fast Cyber. Putting a Nexus down that early DOES exclude a 1-base-allin. And please don't argue with Nexus-cancel-4gate.
You don't take a 3rd before that against Forge/Nexus FE anyways because you want more drones before spending 300 minerals on a new hatchery.
On maps that favor Forge FE there is absolutely no reason not to do it, if you chrono your probes you can keep up with Zerg worker production without a problem, it's quite hilarious actually, to see a Zerg pumping pure drones off 4 Zerglings, and MC being able to keep up with that into the early 50's of the harvester-count.
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great build. I usually make a few(10) ht`s for storms and argons
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Sigh
I gotta deal with this shit too?
I+ Show Spoiler +t's a good strategy, and a good guide too.
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great build. I usually make a few(10) ht`s for storms and argons
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On June 25 2011 17:35 Arcanefrost wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2011 09:40 NB wrote:
i dont really see how this build is any new... early 2 bases lings with good upgrades infestors crush this (aka destiny forever 2 bases style). This basicly a way trying to apply TvZ into PvZ using the DPS of well upgraded stalks and blink mobility which 2-2 lings +fugnal just destroy it.
Any abusing mobility? u clearly hvnt seen blink stalkers +mothership on NA sever... Compare to that build, this one is just child play.
Not trying to bash/troll but I strongly recommend people dont use it else you just gona hear more cry about infestor imbalance (which i think is ballanced as a high level NA Protoss) If you see he blindly went for ling/infestor with your 6gate push, you can go chargelot/archon which solves your problem. The 6gate opener is awesome because infestor/ling or a fast third aren't that good anymore.
"SEE" is an interesting concept here where u committing to a 2 bases timing attack and ignore scouting tech. As the OP said, 3rd bases is almost never an option in this kinda strategy. How does chargelots archon is good when an infestor just fugnal a ball of zealot and they cant do anything?
everyone should know by now that with the infestor ling strat, by the normal time P push out with +1, lings already half way to +2+2 with at least 5 spine crawler. Again, Infestor is the hard counter to any sort of stupid 2 bases rush that Protoss bring on the table. Go watch destiny and you will understand.
strat like (im not taking my 3rd base etc) should never be taken seriously the better you get.
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How does this deal with early pressure?
I'm ashamed to admit it but I'm in Silver league and no one plays for a macro game, I'm getting hammered constantly by early Zerglings/Roaches.
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Hello, 1k diamond zerg, here's my humble perspective
Ling/Roach is our way of saying, "Bet you can't macro that well under pressure" to a fast expanding protoss. We're usually right, in my experience.
I hate blink stalkers. They're the most cost effective thing in the game if you get them before I get infestors. You can kill infinite amounts of certain zerg units with proper micro and the micro is very easy for you. If I get a whiff of this build when I scout you, you're getting a roach/ling all-in, because I'd rather just kill you than deal with that shit
So, that means this build is really effective, and you should be very wary for early zerg all-ins because we hate blink stalkers. So much.
I would like to know what Protoss are afraid of seeing against this build, as if I let it happen, I pretty much lose every time. There doesn't seem to be a zerg "macro oriented" solution to these blink stalker builds.
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On June 26 2011 06:53 NB wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2011 17:35 Arcanefrost wrote:On June 25 2011 09:40 NB wrote:
i dont really see how this build is any new... early 2 bases lings with good upgrades infestors crush this (aka destiny forever 2 bases style). This basicly a way trying to apply TvZ into PvZ using the DPS of well upgraded stalks and blink mobility which 2-2 lings +fugnal just destroy it.
Any abusing mobility? u clearly hvnt seen blink stalkers +mothership on NA sever... Compare to that build, this one is just child play.
Not trying to bash/troll but I strongly recommend people dont use it else you just gona hear more cry about infestor imbalance (which i think is ballanced as a high level NA Protoss) If you see he blindly went for ling/infestor with your 6gate push, you can go chargelot/archon which solves your problem. The 6gate opener is awesome because infestor/ling or a fast third aren't that good anymore. "SEE" is an interesting concept here where u committing to a 2 bases timing attack and ignore scouting tech. As the OP said, 3rd bases is almost never an option in this kinda strategy. How does chargelots archon is good when an infestor just fugnal a ball of zealot and they cant do anything? everyone should know by now that with the infestor ling strat, by the normal time P push out with +1, lings already half way to +2+2 with at least 5 spine crawler. Again, Infestor is the hard counter to any sort of stupid 2 bases rush that Protoss bring on the table. Go watch destiny and you will understand. strat like (im not taking my 3rd base etc) should never be taken seriously the better you get.
I am not by any means commiting to a 2base push. The 6gate zealot +1 is to put pressure on him and give him trouble if he has a fast third. I use my push to scout what composition he has and get hallu to scout later on.
Also how can the zerg possibly have 2/2 by the 9min mark. And 5spine crawlers is quite the exaggeration, if he really did get 5 of them he's way overreacting and you can just take your third.
I thought people reached a consensus on chargelot/archon being one of the best unit compositions against doubleling infestors.
I don't recall saying "third base is almost never an option", expo timing is between 10:30 and 12:00 in a standard game, although if you can do damage you can get it later like lovecd and lovett.
And I'm not sure why you call this "a stupid 2base rush", the gameplan is to go into lategame with a lead created by constant midgame pressure.
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I have not tried this style beyond the 2base timing attack with +2 and blink, but if you are looking for a player who does this sort of strategy very well, try checking out Blackcitadel's stream on TL, he quite frequently goes for the mass blink stalker play.
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On June 26 2011 06:23 MassIncestor wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2011 18:32 sleepingdog wrote:
On the problem of forge FE: personally, I'm currently playing around a lot with one gate FE in single player...if you've seen socke destroy ret on shakuras with a one gate FE into blink rush, then you'll know that this can be extremely strong. This does NOT mean that forge FE is inferiour, it's an alternative approach that serves two distinct purposes:
a) Make fast 6 gate blink viable on maps that aren't good for forge FE
b) Hide your tech as well as possible: one gate FE is inferior economicly but should - in theory - force zerg into a more defensive opening since a one gate FE opening build does NOT exclude a one base all-in, while forge FE does. Your post might be blue, but you really have no idea how Zerg early game works. 1gate FE goes down at 5:10, up until that point there is exactly _0_ deviation in what a Zerg does between FE and fast Cyber. Putting a Nexus down that early DOES exclude a 1-base-allin. And please don't argue with Nexus-cancel-4gate. You don't take a 3rd before that against Forge/Nexus FE anyways because you want more drones before spending 300 minerals on a new hatchery. On maps that favor Forge FE there is absolutely no reason not to do it, if you chrono your probes you can keep up with Zerg worker production without a problem, it's quite hilarious actually, to see a Zerg pumping pure drones off 4 Zerglings, and MC being able to keep up with that into the early 50's of the harvester-count.
If you don't believe me, that's fine, tbh I don't really try to convince each and every one here. For the other people around here:
Nexus cancel 4 gates are nearly a free win if the zerg has no idea it's coming and produces nothing but drones. On some maps you don't even have to build the Nexus, on Shakuras and Tal Darim you can wall off the front entrance and then go for 3 more gates. If the zerg doesn't somehow guess where you place the gates, he can't even sack an overlord since there are too many possible locations for the additional gates.
I'm not theory-crafting here at all: I've looked up Nani vs Ret on Tal Darim Dreamhack, where exactly this is being shown: start watching at around 9:00
http://blip.tv/day9tv/naniwa-p-vs-liquid-ret-z-g2-dreamhack-summer-group-a-5290262
Yes, Ret nearly scouted the gates - but wtf, would you claim you are better at the game than Ret? Meaning, you'd be 100% prepared each and every time something like this comes?
Also your statement that zerg doesn't take a third before that point in time is also 100% wrong: for example IdrA has repeatedly taken his third at around or sometimes even slightly before the 5 minute mark. Which is a good strategy against any voidray or DT build because you have enough time to place spores/build a queen before the voidray/DTs arrive.
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Is this build viable on every map, like as a standard? You said to practice your building placement on Xelnaga in the OP, but is it really a good idea to FFE on a map like that?
Also by, "one [cannon] in mineral line" do you mean the natural for extra defense, or the main, in case of a run by? I usually 3-gate sentry expo so I'm not sure what exactly you're aiming for with your cannons.
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On July 02 2011 04:18 Huntz wrote:
Is this build viable on every map, like as a standard? You said to practice your building placement on Xelnaga in the OP, but is it really a good idea to FFE on a map like that?
Also by, "one [cannon] in mineral line" do you mean the natural for extra defense, or the main, in case of a run by? I usually 3-gate sentry expo so I'm not sure what exactly you're aiming for with your cannons.
Many top pros FFE on Xel'naga, including Ace and HuK.
I don't like it personally, but it's definitely viable.
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On July 02 2011 04:40 PJA wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2011 04:18 Huntz wrote:
Is this build viable on every map, like as a standard? You said to practice your building placement on Xelnaga in the OP, but is it really a good idea to FFE on a map like that?
Also by, "one [cannon] in mineral line" do you mean the natural for extra defense, or the main, in case of a run by? I usually 3-gate sentry expo so I'm not sure what exactly you're aiming for with your cannons. Many top pros FFE on Xel'naga, including Ace and HuK. I don't like it personally, but it's definitely viable.
I've never seen HuK FFE on Xel'naga in a game that mattered - I think you must have perfect gamesense to kinda "smell" if an all-in is coming and you'll need additional cannons.
Personally, I don't think it's worth it. As Day9 would say, we shouldn't try to force certain BOs upon maps that just aren't made for them.
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On June 27 2011 18:39 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2011 06:23 MassIncestor wrote:On June 24 2011 18:32 sleepingdog wrote:
On the problem of forge FE: personally, I'm currently playing around a lot with one gate FE in single player...if you've seen socke destroy ret on shakuras with a one gate FE into blink rush, then you'll know that this can be extremely strong. This does NOT mean that forge FE is inferiour, it's an alternative approach that serves two distinct purposes:
a) Make fast 6 gate blink viable on maps that aren't good for forge FE
b) Hide your tech as well as possible: one gate FE is inferior economicly but should - in theory - force zerg into a more defensive opening since a one gate FE opening build does NOT exclude a one base all-in, while forge FE does. Your post might be blue, but you really have no idea how Zerg early game works. 1gate FE goes down at 5:10, up until that point there is exactly _0_ deviation in what a Zerg does between FE and fast Cyber. Putting a Nexus down that early DOES exclude a 1-base-allin. And please don't argue with Nexus-cancel-4gate. You don't take a 3rd before that against Forge/Nexus FE anyways because you want more drones before spending 300 minerals on a new hatchery. On maps that favor Forge FE there is absolutely no reason not to do it, if you chrono your probes you can keep up with Zerg worker production without a problem, it's quite hilarious actually, to see a Zerg pumping pure drones off 4 Zerglings, and MC being able to keep up with that into the early 50's of the harvester-count. If you don't believe me, that's fine, tbh I don't really try to convince each and every one here. For the other people around here: Nexus cancel 4 gates are nearly a free win if the zerg has no idea it's coming and produces nothing but drones. On some maps you don't even have to build the Nexus, on Shakuras and Tal Darim you can wall off the front entrance and then go for 3 more gates. If the zerg doesn't somehow guess where you place the gates, he can't even sack an overlord since there are too many possible locations for the additional gates. I'm not theory-crafting here at all: I've looked up Nani vs Ret on Tal Darim Dreamhack, where exactly this is being shown: start watching at around 9:00 http://blip.tv/day9tv/naniwa-p-vs-liquid-ret-z-g2-dreamhack-summer-group-a-5290262Yes, Ret nearly scouted the gates - but wtf, would you claim you are better at the game than Ret? Meaning, you'd be 100% prepared each and every time something like this comes? Also your statement that zerg doesn't take a third before that point in time is also 100% wrong: for example IdrA has repeatedly taken his third at around or sometimes even slightly before the 5 minute mark. Which is a good strategy against any voidray or DT build because you have enough time to place spores/build a queen before the voidray/DTs arrive.
Don't most zergs put an overlord behind the natural, so they can pop in and out quick to see if you made/cancelled the nexus?
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I think FFE on XC is okay, not amazing, nor terrible. As long as you keep your scouting probe to scout the zerg natural line at around 6:30, you can know if the allin is coming or not and chrono sentry and build additionnal cannons if needed.
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Does anyone know of replays of a FFE on Xel Naga Caverns?
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I didn't read the exact BO, but hasn't MC been going heavy Blink stalkers against zerg for a while now? (when he isn't FE Stargating).
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The point of the initial fast 6gate+1 zealot attack is pressuring a fast third base or a ling/infestor style, two weaknesses of this build. If he's not doing any of the above see whether you can do damage, and if not retreat.
Why would you get so many zealots when you are transitioning into blink stalker? Why not just do the fast 6 gate with stalkers? Also if you wait until 8min to start the +1, your 6gate+1 timing is sooooo late that they will have enough roaches up if they went for 5min 3rd hatch. What are you going to do with zealots?
I would say the only time to warp mostly zealots is if you scout the 5min third, use a lot of chrono on warp gate, so that you can attack quickly. 5 or even 4 gates is the maximum you can support. Not even waiting for +1.
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On June 23 2011 00:07 CrownRoyal wrote:
"stalkers are meant to tank" LOL
well he's right they are.
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Map specific.
On Taldarim Altar its an instant win, while on Xelnaga caverns you'll get your face rolled in a very unpleasant way. But again, everything is map specific nowadays.
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I'd like to hear your guys thoughts about this build on Scrap Station, it seems basically impossible lol.
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On July 02 2011 12:41 W2 wrote:Show nested quote +The point of the initial fast 6gate+1 zealot attack is pressuring a fast third base or a ling/infestor style, two weaknesses of this build. If he's not doing any of the above see whether you can do damage, and if not retreat. Why would you get so many zealots when you are transitioning into blink stalker? Why not just do the fast 6 gate with stalkers? Also if you wait until 8min to start the +1, your 6gate+1 timing is sooooo late that they will have enough roaches up if they went for 5min 3rd hatch. What are you going to do with zealots? I would say the only time to warp mostly zealots is if you scout the 5min third, use a lot of chrono on warp gate, so that you can attack quickly. 5 or even 4 gates is the maximum you can support. Not even waiting for +1.
Forget the 8min +1, I forgot to change that when I altered the build order. :p
The push hits around 8-8:30 and is brutal against ling play and fast thirds. Worst case scenario he already has roaches and you will force more of them, in this case you shouldn't warp-in another round of zealots. With a 6gate stalker you cannot do enough damage to a fast third covered by mainly lings, or to fast infestor techers.
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On July 02 2011 11:58 See.Blue wrote:
Does anyone know of replays of a FFE on Xel Naga Caverns?
In the replays section of the OP.
I'd like to hear your guys thoughts about this build on Scrap Station, it seems basically impossible lol.
Scrap Station is a terrible map for PvZ in general
Is this build viable on every map, like as a standard? You said to practice your building placement on Xelnaga in the OP, but is it really a good idea to FFE on a map like that? Also by, "one [cannon] in mineral line" do you mean the natural for extra defense, or the main, in case of a run by? I usually 3-gate sentry expo so I'm not sure what exactly you're aiming for with your cannons.
Well, I've been doing forge fe for months and I'm completely comfortable with it. If you're not familiar with forge feing on maps like xelnaga it's better to practice your building placement first and try out in practice a couple of times, and then see whether it suits your style or not. If you get 1cannon behind your wall and one in the mineral line of the natural you're pretty safe, and against 1basers you can basically get unlimited cannons.
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Is this build still viable if the zerg decides to 14 hatch and use that hatchery as an auxiliary hatch for a roach/zergling or zergling/baneling bust? If so, how do you hold it off?
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I think this sounds like an awesome build that gives a solid way to pressure zerg and transition to your tech of choice. Good work!
My only concern is (as many ppl have already said in this thread) that this style requires a lot of micro and macro skill. So to all those higher ranked players out there, would you suggest this build to players below diamond level?
I personally would really like to learn this build but im afraid that it may not serve to hone my 'basic' skills. As low ranked players just wanting to develop into a better overall player, should we just stick with the 3 gate sentry expand into 2 base 4 gate colossus build (which ppl argue is the less micro-intensive method)?
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I hoped you'd have more replays besides the ones from the Stars War tournament. I watched those like 8 times already.
edit: On July 03 2011 02:11 CCalms wrote:
Note: lovecd makes his forge on the high ground. This is sliiightly less optimal but is much preferred imo to ace's method which auto-loses to early pool.
I think he built the forge on the high ground so Zerg can't see that he's upgrading and even chronoboosting the forge. You can imo just as easily wall off on the bottom of the ramp.
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On July 20 2011 11:14 bankai wrote:
I think this sounds like an awesome build that gives a solid way to pressure zerg and transition to your tech of choice. Good work!
My only concern is (as many ppl have already said in this thread) that this style requires a lot of micro and macro skill. So to all those higher ranked players out there, would you suggest this build to players below diamond level?
I personally would really like to learn this build but im afraid that it may not serve to hone my 'basic' skills. As low ranked players just wanting to develop into a better overall player, should we just stick with the 3 gate sentry expand into 2 base 4 gate colossus build (which ppl argue is the less micro-intensive method)?
Sorry reposting this cos i would really like to know the answer so i can start practicing right away!
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Some time ago i was in a similar spot as you bankai. I used to play 3gate expo and do 2 base timing aganist Z. I was fine, winning a lot of games, however i was amazed with the replays i saw in this "15 Nexus" thread from this "little" (prolly one of the top3 P posters in TL) guy called "Anhic". That amazing post/guy changed my way to see/play Sc2. I find out that this "risky" build is in some maps even safer than a 3 gate expo. Now i'm a macro player =D. If you wanna expand your knowledge of the game, go and learn that style you like, you are going to improve as a player anyways. You only need 3 things to learn that build:
1) Learn via repetition the perfect build order (eventually you're going to do it decently) using replays. Check for variations depending maps and starting positions.
2) Practice the build repeatedly with some practice friend.
3) Practice the build aganist unknowns and learn how to respond aganist every threat.
Go for it.
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On July 20 2011 15:14 Belha wrote:
Some time ago i was in a similar spot as you bankai. I used to play 3gate expo and do 2 base timing aganist Z. I was fine, winning a lot of games, however i was amazed with the replays i saw in this "15 Nexus" thread from this "little" (prolly one of the top3 P posters in TL) guy called "Anhic". That amazing post/guy changed my way to see/play Sc2. I find out that this "risky" build is in some maps even safer than a 3 gate expo. Now i'm a macro player =D. If you wanna expand your knowledge of the game, go and learn that style you like, you are going to improve as a player anyways. You only need 3 things to learn that build:
1) Learn via repetition the perfect build order (eventually you're going to do it decently) using replays. Check for variations depending maps and starting positions.
2) Practice the build repeatedly with some practice friend.
3) Practice the build aganist unknowns and learn how to respond aganist every threat.
Go for it.
Appreciate your post Belha.
I dont have much time to play so wanted to learn the game as efficiently as possible. I know there are ppl out there that have time to churn out like thousands of games but i dont have that luxury Therefore, I wanted to know good macro builds backbone that are adaptable to any map and offer flexibility to deal with anything Zerg can throw at me (on the assumption I scout and react appropriately of course) and wanted to know if high ranked players recommend this one ^^
But I hear what you are saying - in some sense, most builds that are popular and used by progamers (e.g. Huk in this case) are solid builds - we just gotta be willing to learn it well and stick to it. If the build happens to be micro intensive then thats fine, it probably just means a steeper learning curve but will hopefully come out the other end of it as a better player overall
Guess my doubt in using this build came about because lots of ppl on this thread suggest that anyone below Diamond should not use this build.
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Some more comments on this now that I have a ton more experience with it:
You need to start +1 attack much earlier, it needs to be ready by the time your initial 6 zealots hit. This is what makes that first 6 gate attack so strong, the majority of zergs will be defending their 3rd with just lings and 2 shotting those lings is critical. Basically my first 50 gas goes to warpgate tech, next 100 gas goes to that attack upgrade. Chronoing warpgate tech is priority but you should have enough energy for a few chronos on the +1 as well.
Another thing about your initial 6 gate zealot attack - I don't recommend it on maps with an easy 3rd (i.e. metal). Although lower level zergs might not be used to the timing and die anyway, good zergs will be able to scout out your 6 gate and get roaches to safely defend.
Also if the zerg stays on 2 bases, I would be careful. It's ok to poke with your first 6 zealots, but if you see spines you need to not warp in any more zealots for now and get blink and/or HT asap because mutas or infestors are coming.
However if you do do it... your goal is to kill the 3rd. Focus on the micro and don't let your zealots stray chasing drones running away or w/e. If you kill the hatch without doing a lot of other damage, you will be slightly ahead. If you don't kill the hatch but trade units, you will be slightly behind.
As you're warping in new rounds of units during the assault on the 3rd, keep warping in only zealots until you actually see roaches. If he never makes roaches and just masses lings, going pure zealots while teching to HT/archon is so much better. If he gets banes, stop attacking and wait until you have archons and then a-move for the win. If he was rushing to infestors with only lings to defend, he should be dead by now. If he goes hydra/ling, get a few stalkers and warp in a mix of zealot/stalker. Zealots do pretty decently hydras, especially if you can get them off creep. If you see roaches (which is really the only way for the zerg to defend the 3rd - I don't think I've ever lost to someone who got a 3rd and then never made roaches), then you can continue on to your blink strategy.
Now for the actual blink part - you have 2 options: first, you can follow what the OP says and cut probes at ~50, pump stalkers, and dance your way to victory. Obviously this is very strong. But also it's possible to still play a defensive macro game with blink stalkers - don't stop making probes, and get the 3rd earlier. 3 base P is very strong, and then you can switch to stalker/sentry/immortal/HT/archon. Extremely strong composition especially against infestor play which is really popular these days.
The only real counter (although a pretty good one) is roach into roach/infestor or roach/ling/infestor.
Here's a recent rep of me doing this build. There's not actually very much blink in it since my 6 gate zealot attack puts me pretty far ahead, but you can still get the general idea of what I'm trying to do here.
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On July 20 2011 16:12 Anihc wrote:Some more comments on this now that I have a ton more experience with it: You need to start +1 attack much earlier, it needs to be ready by the time your initial 6 zealots hit. This is what makes that first 6 gate attack so strong, the majority of zergs will be defending their 3rd with just lings and 2 shotting those lings is critical. Basically my first 50 gas goes to warpgate tech, next 100 gas goes to that attack upgrade. Chronoing warpgate tech is priority but you should have enough energy for a few chronos on the +1 as well. Another thing about your initial 6 gate zealot attack - I don't recommend it on maps with an easy 3rd (i.e. metal). Although lower level zergs might not be used to the timing and die anyway, good zergs will be able to scout out your 6 gate and get roaches to safely defend. Also if the zerg stays on 2 bases, I would be careful. It's ok to poke with your first 6 zealots, but if you see spines you need to not warp in any more zealots for now and get blink and/or HT asap because mutas or infestors are coming. However if you do do it... your goal is to kill the 3rd. Focus on the micro and don't let your zealots stray chasing drones running away or w/e. If you kill the hatch without doing a lot of other damage, you will be slightly ahead. If you don't kill the hatch but trade units, you will be slightly behind. As you're warping in new rounds of units during the assault on the 3rd, keep warping in only zealots until you actually see roaches. If he never makes roaches and just masses lings, going pure zealots while teching to HT/archon is so much better. If he gets banes, stop attacking and wait until you have archons and then a-move for the win. If he was rushing to infestors with only lings to defend, he should be dead by now. If he goes hydra/ling, get a few stalkers and warp in a mix of zealot/stalker. Zealots do pretty decently hydras, especially if you can get them off creep. If you see roaches (which is really the only way for the zerg to defend the 3rd - I don't think I've ever lost to someone who got a 3rd and then never made roaches), then you can continue on to your blink strategy. Now for the actual blink part - you have 2 options: first, you can follow what the OP says and cut probes at ~50, pump stalkers, and dance your way to victory. Obviously this is very strong. But also it's possible to still play a defensive macro game with blink stalkers - don't stop making probes, and get the 3rd earlier. 3 base P is very strong, and then you can switch to stalker/sentry/immortal/HT/archon. Extremely strong composition especially against infestor play which is really popular these days. The only real counter (although a pretty good one) is roach into roach/infestor or roach/ling/infestor. Here's a recent rep of me doing this build. There's not actually very much blink in it since my 6 gate zealot attack puts me pretty far ahead, but you can still get the general idea of what I'm trying to do here.
Thanks Anihc, that advice sounds really helpful and really explains a lot of how to react/transition based on what zerg does.
One thing that has been slightly bugging me is just the opener of this build. I started practicing it last night and watched your replay and around the 6:30-7:30min mark, it just feels like you look vulnerable. I think at that point you had 2 cannons (one exposed on the right side) and maybe 2 zealots, 1 sentry, 1 stalker (if memory serves correct). Not just your replay though, even in Day9 when it spotted Huk's build, he opens Forge FE and has like 2 sentries by the 6:30min-ish mark.
So my question is, how did you know that you were safe at that point? What if zerg ran in with speedlings from the right side (behind the grass) at that point? Your cannons may take out a few of them but then they could get through to your main and make a bit of trouble.
In the back of my mind, I thought the key to making Nexus first or Forge FE builds safe was getting 2 sentries out early to protect, but here you use your first 150 gas on WG research and +1attk upgrade.
Sorry, i hope im not sounding like I am criticising your play - in fact, it seems like you had a thought process behind every move you made which I found great As a low player, I just want to better understand your thoughts behind the way you played so I can understand this build in a deeper way instead of blindly following it
So to summarise, my questions are:
1) When doing a Forge FE build (esp on close position maps), what key points in time do I need to worry about zerg aggression?
2) What key points in this build should I be scouting and how? E.g. I noticed you scouted simultaneously with a zealot and probe - what triggered to do that and what did you specifically look for?
3) How does your build know that you would be safe from the 'infamous' 7:30 roach/zergling all-in?? Assuming you know its coming, how do you adjust for this?
4) Do you always build 6 zealots with this build order and then only if you think they can do damage, you build a further 6 zealots from a proxy pylon?
Thanks again!
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The metagame has shifted... this is more like "Korean PvZ" now.
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On July 21 2011 09:44 bankai wrote:
So to summarise, my questions are:
1) When doing a Forge FE build (esp on close position maps), what key points in time do I need to worry about zerg aggression?
2) What key points in this build should I be scouting and how? E.g. I noticed you scouted simultaneously with a zealot and probe - what triggered to do that and what did you specifically look for?
3) How does your build know that you would be safe from the 'infamous' 7:30 roach/zergling all-in?? Assuming you know its coming, how do you adjust for this?
4) Do you always build 6 zealots with this build order and then only if you think they can do damage, you build a further 6 zealots from a proxy pylon?
Thanks again!
1) Every single second between the start of the game and the time when your warpgate tech finishes or your void/dt pops out is time you should be worrying about zerg aggression. There are so many things a zerg can do, and you have to be on the lookout for an attack at any time. This ranges from early pools, 1 base roach all-ins, speedling run bys, baneling busts, 2 base roach/ling attack, etc. Your best defense against them is scouting... which leads to
2) You pretty much have to always keep scouting the zerg at all times. If a scouting probe dies, send another one. Send 2 probes in multiple directions. Lure lings away with 1 probe and sneak another probe out. Use zealots. etc. If he gets a lot of speedlings on the map and prevents you from getting anything out, keep a probe scouting just outside your base. That extra 2 seconds warning you can get from spotting rallied lings or w/e is crucial to you stopping a speedling runby or baneling bust. Scouting with probe + zealot at same time is standard for me in every pvz.
What to look for? If you see more than 4 zerglings at any time, you need to throw down at least 1 more cannon asap. If you see speedlings (or scout speedling expand with your initial probe), I would partially wall off your ramp/entrance to main and have a probe near it hotkeyed ready to throw down a gateway or something to completely wall it off.
If you see an evo chamber, I would feel a little safe. If you see no gas for awhile, I would feel fairly safe. If you see a 3rd going up, I would feel very safe. Other things to watch out (besides the obvious like a roach warren or baneling nest) is drone count, and what is popping out of eggs. Even if you don't see any lings on the map but you see a pair of lings hatch from eggs, you need to get cannons immediately and be on alert. Zerg makes waves of either drones or units at a time - so whatever you see popping out of just 1 egg is likely what is also going to pop out of all the eggs for the next minute.
3) Kinda already answered this. If you go this style (zeal > blink) you actually don't really need many sentries, if any (a few will help against banelings though for sure). The response to any sort of aggression is just more cannons. If roaches, chrono out stalkers. If mass lings, chrono out zealots. Against a 7:30 big 2 base roach/all in, you should basically have a lot of cannons with a handful of stalkers, and then your warpgate tech should finish soon afterwards anyway.
4) Not always. Against good players I no longer do the 6 gate zeal on maps with easy 3rds and against zergs who stay on 2 bases. Instead I get blink faster, all 4 gases faster, and don't cut probes as much. But if I do scout that 3rd and throw up those 6 gates, yes I do always warp in 6 zeals initially and then continue to keep warping in units. Whether those additional units are zeals or stalkers depends on what the zerg makes in response, as I described above.
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On July 21 2011 10:28 Anihc wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2011 09:44 bankai wrote:
So to summarise, my questions are:
1) When doing a Forge FE build (esp on close position maps), what key points in time do I need to worry about zerg aggression?
2) What key points in this build should I be scouting and how? E.g. I noticed you scouted simultaneously with a zealot and probe - what triggered to do that and what did you specifically look for?
3) How does your build know that you would be safe from the 'infamous' 7:30 roach/zergling all-in?? Assuming you know its coming, how do you adjust for this?
4) Do you always build 6 zealots with this build order and then only if you think they can do damage, you build a further 6 zealots from a proxy pylon?
Thanks again!
1) Every single second between the start of the game and the time when your warpgate tech finishes or your void/dt pops out is time you should be worrying about zerg aggression. There are so many things a zerg can do, and you have to be on the lookout for an attack at any time. This ranges from early pools, 1 base roach all-ins, speedling run bys, baneling busts, 2 base roach/ling attack, etc. Your best defense against them is scouting... which leads to 2) You pretty much have to always keep scouting the zerg at all times. If a scouting probe dies, send another one. Send 2 probes in multiple directions. Lure lings away with 1 probe and sneak another probe out. Use zealots. etc. If he gets a lot of speedlings on the map and prevents you from getting anything out, keep a probe scouting just outside your base. That extra 2 seconds warning you can get from spotting rallied lings or w/e is crucial to you stopping a speedling runby or baneling bust. Scouting with probe + zealot at same time is standard for me in every pvz. What to look for? If you see more than 4 zerglings at any time, you need to throw down at least 1 more cannon asap. If you see speedlings (or scout speedling expand with your initial probe), I would partially wall off your ramp/entrance to main and have a probe near it hotkeyed ready to throw down a gateway or something to completely wall it off. If you see an evo chamber, I would feel a little safe. If you see no gas for awhile, I would feel fairly safe. If you see a 3rd going up, I would feel very safe. Other things to watch out (besides the obvious like a roach warren or baneling nest) is drone count, and what is popping out of eggs. Even if you don't see any lings on the map but you see a pair of lings hatch from eggs, you need to get cannons immediately and be on alert. Zerg makes waves of either drones or units at a time - so whatever you see popping out of just 1 egg is likely what is also going to pop out of all the eggs for the next minute. 3) Kinda already answered this. If you go this style (zeal > blink) you actually don't really need many sentries, if any (a few will help against banelings though for sure). The response to any sort of aggression is just more cannons. If roaches, chrono out stalkers. If mass lings, chrono out zealots. Against a 7:30 big 2 base roach/all in, you should basically have a lot of cannons with a handful of stalkers, and then your warpgate tech should finish soon afterwards anyway. 4) Not always. Against good players I no longer do the 6 gate zeal on maps with easy 3rds and against zergs who stay on 2 bases. Instead I get blink faster, all 4 gases faster, and don't cut probes as much. But if I do scout that 3rd and throw up those 6 gates, yes I do always warp in 6 zeals initially and then continue to keep warping in units. Whether those additional units are zeals or stalkers depends on what the zerg makes in response, as I described above.
Wow, again some really good advice. Hope im not bothering you with all these noob questions, but had some follow ups:
(2) You say scout pretty much all times. In practice, does this mean if I am not building my buildings, then I am actively moving my probe/zealot around the map scouting? Where exactly do you scout though? I noticed in your replay you went for the Xelnaga watch tower and the 3rd base location. But it sounds like you suggest to scout in his base - but often they will have at least a spine or 2 that will kill my probe before i even make it inside?? Just sounds hard without my good old halluncination
(3) In addition to lots of cannons and stalker/zealots is it ok to build 2-3 initial sentries or is doing this going to hinder this build? Looking at how other ppl defend this in other situations, the sentries seem to be key as it stops you from being overwhelmed.
(4) How do you know a zerg is staying on 2 bases? Is it if they havent taken their 3rd by 9mins or something?
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He has spines after seeing your FFE? What league is this :p Try to get into base if possible (many games I will sac zealot and just walk it past the queens directly into main just to scout there), if not hang around outside, see if you can get a glimpse of drone count/gas/what's hatching out of eggs. Also scout his 3rd base location. 9 minute is extremely late, if you don't see it by like 7-8 minutes he's 2 basing.
2-3 sentries is fine, but you should get them after you start warpgate tech and +1 attack unless you scout some sort of attack. The reason I don't get sentries is because they're not very useful if he goes muta/ling or infestor/ling, and I'd rather have the extra gas for more stalker/ht.
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U know something is wrong when a player can blindly mass 1 unit and do well with it.
The main problem is as Zerg you can't rly counter this properly. It's a lot about engaging at the right moment and knowing when the actual push is coming so you dont fall behind on economy.
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Have to ask OP...
Are you claiming this strategy has no counter?!
o.O
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On July 21 2011 13:48 Dice. wrote:
Have to ask OP...
Are you claiming this strategy has no counter?!
o.O
A solid strategy never has a counter. Thats what makes it solid. What this strategy has is weaknesses to certain gameplans, with steps in place to smooth those weaknesses a bit.
As a question to the OP -
are there any replays of successful defense of a 2base speedling/allin vs this build? It feels like you would be extremely strained trying to defend this on a map like Xel'Naga Caverns of Metalopolis with an open natural.
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On July 21 2011 13:52 Dhalphir wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2011 13:48 Dice. wrote:
Have to ask OP...
Are you claiming this strategy has no counter?!
o.O A solid strategy never has a counter. Thats what makes it solid. What this strategy has is weaknesses to certain gameplans, with steps in place to smooth those weaknesses a bit. As a question to the OP - are there any replays of successful defense of a 2base speedling/allin vs this build? It feels like you would be extremely strained trying to defend this on a map like Xel'Naga Caverns of Metalopolis with an open natural.
Defending against any early (pre warpgate tech) attack doesn't have anything to do with this build, that's more of just knowing how to FFE correctly. But to answer your question I don't think I've seen a 2 base speedling all in in a long time. You defend it like any other all in, just make more cannons (and get some sentries if you like). Speedling runbys are very common though and the best way to deal with that is to partially wall off your ramp/entrance to main and be prepared to throw down a gateway to completely seal it off. Or block with a zealot.
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On July 21 2011 13:46 JoeAWESOME wrote:
U know something is wrong when a player can blindly mass 1 unit and do well with it.
The main problem is as Zerg you can't rly counter this properly. It's a lot about engaging at the right moment and knowing when the actual push is coming so you dont fall behind on economy.
Roach/infestor is a very good counter. It's important to control your infestors well and to not lose them easily, one thing I've noticed is that the better players I play always take care not to lose their infestors, whereas the bad players are like gifting me free infestors to kill all the time. On bigger maps pure roach/ling is pretty good too if you flank well with lings.
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Made some small changes and will add a replay of myself later. Blizzard deemed it necessary to fuck all my replays to fix some small bug some people in some regions sometimes encountered
It's indeed better to go for +1 faster and to push with your first zealots. I always do this when I see a fast third, even on maps where it's pretty easy for the zerg to defend it because I feel like it always does a tun of damage and/or pressures the zerg a lot.
Ht follow-up is really awesome after this because you have some spare gas and most zergs will go infestor upon seeing your blink. I add sentries and start immortal prodcution and go for stalker/sentry/immortal/ht. I feel like the metagame has shifted towards infestor heavy play, so I think this is superior to colossi builds. I only get colossi against hydra play now.
I've been loving this build a lot. The first time I did this to any of my zerg friends it was a very one-sided win. Now the bastards are all blind countering me
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On July 21 2011 14:10 Anihc wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2011 13:46 JoeAWESOME wrote:
U know something is wrong when a player can blindly mass 1 unit and do well with it.
The main problem is as Zerg you can't rly counter this properly. It's a lot about engaging at the right moment and knowing when the actual push is coming so you dont fall behind on economy. Roach/infestor is a very good counter. It's important to control your infestors well and to not lose them easily, one thing I've noticed is that the better players I play always take care not to lose their infestors, whereas the bad players are like gifting me free infestors to kill all the time. On bigger maps pure roach/ling is pretty good too if you flank well with lings.
Yeah you need infestors + roaches to deal with this but still, something is wrong when you can mass 1 unit and still vs anything.
Though that's just what I think.
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I really like this build, its my go to pvz (highish masters), but with some modifications.
I either like to pressure with it, in which case I do basically what the guide says except I rush my +2 and thus also my +1 much more and I don't do the initial zealot pressure, cause I feel like you risk just losing 6 zels to speedlings if the zerg has good ovie placement. I just start my pressure with zels + sentries and stalkers, like a normal 6wg attack but then only stalkers (no refreshing zel/sentry numbers) and obvs blink and +2.
If I'm in the mood to macro and the map has a good defensible third I will put on slight pressure with ONLY stalkers leaving zel sentry at home because I don't intend to stay to fight for long. I also tech to dts like HuK did vrs July on TDA in Dreamhack to put some additional pressure on, while taking 3rd and getting hts. With good micro, ffs and if it's an easy third for you to take, I feel like you can take it pretty ez. What this is weak to is basically a Z who is totally prepared for your DTs, in which case you can be vulnerable to counterattack in a few production cycles because you just invested tons of gas for nothing. In this circumstance I morph a few archons, stop probe production for a few minutes, and just get ready to micro like all hell.
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On July 21 2011 18:39 JoeAWESOME wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2011 14:10 Anihc wrote:On July 21 2011 13:46 JoeAWESOME wrote:
U know something is wrong when a player can blindly mass 1 unit and do well with it.
The main problem is as Zerg you can't rly counter this properly. It's a lot about engaging at the right moment and knowing when the actual push is coming so you dont fall behind on economy. Roach/infestor is a very good counter. It's important to control your infestors well and to not lose them easily, one thing I've noticed is that the better players I play always take care not to lose their infestors, whereas the bad players are like gifting me free infestors to kill all the time. On bigger maps pure roach/ling is pretty good too if you flank well with lings. Yeah you need infestors + roaches to deal with this but still, something is wrong when you can mass 1 unit and still vs anything. Though that's just what I think. Pure blink stalkers will get stomped by almost any composition that includes infestors. Protoss needs templar, colossi, or even phoenix.
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On July 21 2011 13:39 Anihc wrote:
He has spines after seeing your FFE? What league is this :p Try to get into base if possible (many games I will sac zealot and just walk it past the queens directly into main just to scout there), if not hang around outside, see if you can get a glimpse of drone count/gas/what's hatching out of eggs. Also scout his 3rd base location. 9 minute is extremely late, if you don't see it by like 7-8 minutes he's 2 basing.
2-3 sentries is fine, but you should get them after you start warpgate tech and +1 attack unless you scout some sort of attack. The reason I don't get sentries is because they're not very useful if he goes muta/ling or infestor/ling, and I'd rather have the extra gas for more stalker/ht.
Awesome advice Anihc, thanks. So just to clarify - if a zerg 1 bases or 2 base losira pushes you, its OK to have lots of cannons up due to lack of sentries?? Im thinking like 4-5cannons + watever zealots/stalkers I can squeeze in once I scout their push?
hahaha...im low plat and sometimes i see zerg put down blind spines and even spores - possibly cos they just got burned in another game from DTs
I had some questions about doing an FFE but its probably not appropriate for this thread so i'll walk over to the simple Q thread now!
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only gold player here but just wondering if anyone as considered getting a fast +1 shield with blink?!?!
since u wanna blink them as they lose shield, if they could take more damage u wouldnt have to pull away as fast.. thoughts?
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On July 22 2011 17:56 Gamma4 wrote:
only gold player here but just wondering if anyone as considered getting a fast +1 shield with blink?!?!
since u wanna blink them as they lose shield, if they could take more damage u wouldnt have to pull away as fast.. thoughts?
Attack is a lot better, stalkers with +2 or +3 are insanely good. Shield is expensive and doesn't really add much because you don't want to tank with your stalkers.
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Attack is a lot better, stalkers with +2 or +3 are insanely good. Shield is expensive and doesn't really add much because you don't want to tank with your stalkers.
I was wondering about this, I always go +3 attack first, but after that would shields be better? I suppose armor might be since its cheaper and you'll be past the pure blink stalker stage by then, but still.
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On July 23 2011 00:26 Huntz wrote:Show nested quote +Attack is a lot better, stalkers with +2 or +3 are insanely good. Shield is expensive and doesn't really add much because you don't want to tank with your stalkers. I was wondering about this, I always go +3 attack first, but after that would shields be better? I suppose armor might be since its cheaper and you'll be past the pure blink stalker stage by then, but still.
Depends on what you have transitioned into, but usually Shields are much better in the late game. The only unit that profits more from Armor than Stealth is the Zealot (and robo units, I guess), of which you won't have a lot in the endgame, except for harass and against Lingheavy compositions. On the other side, shields are especially great for Archons and air units, so I'd take Shields over Armor in the lategame in most situations.
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Why are there so detailed, kick ass guides for protoss, yet none for terran or zerg
It's so tempting to switch to protoss for this strat, everything is already written and nothing is more easy and satisfying then playing 100 games using an already perfected strategy to make it yours, especially when it's so fun to use! Envy!
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On July 23 2011 02:52 OutlaW- wrote:Why are there so detailed, kick ass guides for protoss, yet none for terran or zerg
Obviously us Protoss need them most!!
jk 
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How do you guys feel about transitioning into fast DTs to deny expansions/claim map control?
PvZ is my worst matchup and I always feel under pressure and unable to secure a third or fourth due to massive aggression, DTs might alleviate that by forcing the Zerg to be a little more cautious or passive? It's the same logic as Phoenix harass, only it makes far more sense because of the fast Twilight Council.
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okay i'm going to get some serious hate for this, but i've taken this build and changed it to more of huks 13 gate, but still on high ground like here. with the 13 gate, though its only happened twice, if you find a hatch first and wall them in and cannon it, you can double zergs everything and win so easy its awesome. granted i'm diamond and terribad, its awesome i love some revenge on zergs getting super greedy.
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I tired this style for the first time today, I'm totally in love with it.
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really good write up, will try this on the ladder : )
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This build wrecks unsuspecting zergs with the combined force of blink stalker harass and DT transitions. Makes PvZ much less of the turtle-until-you-have-a-lot-of-colossi, which is great.
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EPT
