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On June 26 2011 06:23 MassIncestor wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2011 18:32 sleepingdog wrote:
On the problem of forge FE: personally, I'm currently playing around a lot with one gate FE in single player...if you've seen socke destroy ret on shakuras with a one gate FE into blink rush, then you'll know that this can be extremely strong. This does NOT mean that forge FE is inferiour, it's an alternative approach that serves two distinct purposes:
a) Make fast 6 gate blink viable on maps that aren't good for forge FE
b) Hide your tech as well as possible: one gate FE is inferior economicly but should - in theory - force zerg into a more defensive opening since a one gate FE opening build does NOT exclude a one base all-in, while forge FE does. Your post might be blue, but you really have no idea how Zerg early game works. 1gate FE goes down at 5:10, up until that point there is exactly _0_ deviation in what a Zerg does between FE and fast Cyber. Putting a Nexus down that early DOES exclude a 1-base-allin. And please don't argue with Nexus-cancel-4gate. You don't take a 3rd before that against Forge/Nexus FE anyways because you want more drones before spending 300 minerals on a new hatchery. On maps that favor Forge FE there is absolutely no reason not to do it, if you chrono your probes you can keep up with Zerg worker production without a problem, it's quite hilarious actually, to see a Zerg pumping pure drones off 4 Zerglings, and MC being able to keep up with that into the early 50's of the harvester-count.
If you don't believe me, that's fine, tbh I don't really try to convince each and every one here. For the other people around here:
Nexus cancel 4 gates are nearly a free win if the zerg has no idea it's coming and produces nothing but drones. On some maps you don't even have to build the Nexus, on Shakuras and Tal Darim you can wall off the front entrance and then go for 3 more gates. If the zerg doesn't somehow guess where you place the gates, he can't even sack an overlord since there are too many possible locations for the additional gates.
I'm not theory-crafting here at all: I've looked up Nani vs Ret on Tal Darim Dreamhack, where exactly this is being shown: start watching at around 9:00
http://blip.tv/day9tv/naniwa-p-vs-liquid-ret-z-g2-dreamhack-summer-group-a-5290262
Yes, Ret nearly scouted the gates - but wtf, would you claim you are better at the game than Ret? Meaning, you'd be 100% prepared each and every time something like this comes?
Also your statement that zerg doesn't take a third before that point in time is also 100% wrong: for example IdrA has repeatedly taken his third at around or sometimes even slightly before the 5 minute mark. Which is a good strategy against any voidray or DT build because you have enough time to place spores/build a queen before the voidray/DTs arrive.
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Is this build viable on every map, like as a standard? You said to practice your building placement on Xelnaga in the OP, but is it really a good idea to FFE on a map like that?
Also by, "one [cannon] in mineral line" do you mean the natural for extra defense, or the main, in case of a run by? I usually 3-gate sentry expo so I'm not sure what exactly you're aiming for with your cannons.
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On July 02 2011 04:18 Huntz wrote:
Is this build viable on every map, like as a standard? You said to practice your building placement on Xelnaga in the OP, but is it really a good idea to FFE on a map like that?
Also by, "one [cannon] in mineral line" do you mean the natural for extra defense, or the main, in case of a run by? I usually 3-gate sentry expo so I'm not sure what exactly you're aiming for with your cannons.
Many top pros FFE on Xel'naga, including Ace and HuK.
I don't like it personally, but it's definitely viable.
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On July 02 2011 04:40 PJA wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2011 04:18 Huntz wrote:
Is this build viable on every map, like as a standard? You said to practice your building placement on Xelnaga in the OP, but is it really a good idea to FFE on a map like that?
Also by, "one [cannon] in mineral line" do you mean the natural for extra defense, or the main, in case of a run by? I usually 3-gate sentry expo so I'm not sure what exactly you're aiming for with your cannons. Many top pros FFE on Xel'naga, including Ace and HuK. I don't like it personally, but it's definitely viable.
I've never seen HuK FFE on Xel'naga in a game that mattered - I think you must have perfect gamesense to kinda "smell" if an all-in is coming and you'll need additional cannons.
Personally, I don't think it's worth it. As Day9 would say, we shouldn't try to force certain BOs upon maps that just aren't made for them.
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On June 27 2011 18:39 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2011 06:23 MassIncestor wrote:On June 24 2011 18:32 sleepingdog wrote:
On the problem of forge FE: personally, I'm currently playing around a lot with one gate FE in single player...if you've seen socke destroy ret on shakuras with a one gate FE into blink rush, then you'll know that this can be extremely strong. This does NOT mean that forge FE is inferiour, it's an alternative approach that serves two distinct purposes:
a) Make fast 6 gate blink viable on maps that aren't good for forge FE
b) Hide your tech as well as possible: one gate FE is inferior economicly but should - in theory - force zerg into a more defensive opening since a one gate FE opening build does NOT exclude a one base all-in, while forge FE does. Your post might be blue, but you really have no idea how Zerg early game works. 1gate FE goes down at 5:10, up until that point there is exactly _0_ deviation in what a Zerg does between FE and fast Cyber. Putting a Nexus down that early DOES exclude a 1-base-allin. And please don't argue with Nexus-cancel-4gate. You don't take a 3rd before that against Forge/Nexus FE anyways because you want more drones before spending 300 minerals on a new hatchery. On maps that favor Forge FE there is absolutely no reason not to do it, if you chrono your probes you can keep up with Zerg worker production without a problem, it's quite hilarious actually, to see a Zerg pumping pure drones off 4 Zerglings, and MC being able to keep up with that into the early 50's of the harvester-count. If you don't believe me, that's fine, tbh I don't really try to convince each and every one here. For the other people around here: Nexus cancel 4 gates are nearly a free win if the zerg has no idea it's coming and produces nothing but drones. On some maps you don't even have to build the Nexus, on Shakuras and Tal Darim you can wall off the front entrance and then go for 3 more gates. If the zerg doesn't somehow guess where you place the gates, he can't even sack an overlord since there are too many possible locations for the additional gates. I'm not theory-crafting here at all: I've looked up Nani vs Ret on Tal Darim Dreamhack, where exactly this is being shown: start watching at around 9:00 http://blip.tv/day9tv/naniwa-p-vs-liquid-ret-z-g2-dreamhack-summer-group-a-5290262Yes, Ret nearly scouted the gates - but wtf, would you claim you are better at the game than Ret? Meaning, you'd be 100% prepared each and every time something like this comes? Also your statement that zerg doesn't take a third before that point in time is also 100% wrong: for example IdrA has repeatedly taken his third at around or sometimes even slightly before the 5 minute mark. Which is a good strategy against any voidray or DT build because you have enough time to place spores/build a queen before the voidray/DTs arrive.
Don't most zergs put an overlord behind the natural, so they can pop in and out quick to see if you made/cancelled the nexus?
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I think FFE on XC is okay, not amazing, nor terrible. As long as you keep your scouting probe to scout the zerg natural line at around 6:30, you can know if the allin is coming or not and chrono sentry and build additionnal cannons if needed.
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Does anyone know of replays of a FFE on Xel Naga Caverns?
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I didn't read the exact BO, but hasn't MC been going heavy Blink stalkers against zerg for a while now? (when he isn't FE Stargating).
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The point of the initial fast 6gate+1 zealot attack is pressuring a fast third base or a ling/infestor style, two weaknesses of this build. If he's not doing any of the above see whether you can do damage, and if not retreat.
Why would you get so many zealots when you are transitioning into blink stalker? Why not just do the fast 6 gate with stalkers? Also if you wait until 8min to start the +1, your 6gate+1 timing is sooooo late that they will have enough roaches up if they went for 5min 3rd hatch. What are you going to do with zealots?
I would say the only time to warp mostly zealots is if you scout the 5min third, use a lot of chrono on warp gate, so that you can attack quickly. 5 or even 4 gates is the maximum you can support. Not even waiting for +1.
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On June 23 2011 00:07 CrownRoyal wrote:
"stalkers are meant to tank" LOL
well he's right they are.
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Map specific.
On Taldarim Altar its an instant win, while on Xelnaga caverns you'll get your face rolled in a very unpleasant way. But again, everything is map specific nowadays.
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I'd like to hear your guys thoughts about this build on Scrap Station, it seems basically impossible lol.
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On July 02 2011 12:41 W2 wrote:Show nested quote +The point of the initial fast 6gate+1 zealot attack is pressuring a fast third base or a ling/infestor style, two weaknesses of this build. If he's not doing any of the above see whether you can do damage, and if not retreat. Why would you get so many zealots when you are transitioning into blink stalker? Why not just do the fast 6 gate with stalkers? Also if you wait until 8min to start the +1, your 6gate+1 timing is sooooo late that they will have enough roaches up if they went for 5min 3rd hatch. What are you going to do with zealots? I would say the only time to warp mostly zealots is if you scout the 5min third, use a lot of chrono on warp gate, so that you can attack quickly. 5 or even 4 gates is the maximum you can support. Not even waiting for +1.
Forget the 8min +1, I forgot to change that when I altered the build order. :p
The push hits around 8-8:30 and is brutal against ling play and fast thirds. Worst case scenario he already has roaches and you will force more of them, in this case you shouldn't warp-in another round of zealots. With a 6gate stalker you cannot do enough damage to a fast third covered by mainly lings, or to fast infestor techers.
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On July 02 2011 11:58 See.Blue wrote:
Does anyone know of replays of a FFE on Xel Naga Caverns?
In the replays section of the OP.
I'd like to hear your guys thoughts about this build on Scrap Station, it seems basically impossible lol.
Scrap Station is a terrible map for PvZ in general 
Is this build viable on every map, like as a standard? You said to practice your building placement on Xelnaga in the OP, but is it really a good idea to FFE on a map like that? Also by, "one [cannon] in mineral line" do you mean the natural for extra defense, or the main, in case of a run by? I usually 3-gate sentry expo so I'm not sure what exactly you're aiming for with your cannons.
Well, I've been doing forge fe for months and I'm completely comfortable with it. If you're not familiar with forge feing on maps like xelnaga it's better to practice your building placement first and try out in practice a couple of times, and then see whether it suits your style or not. If you get 1cannon behind your wall and one in the mineral line of the natural you're pretty safe, and against 1basers you can basically get unlimited cannons.
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Is this build still viable if the zerg decides to 14 hatch and use that hatchery as an auxiliary hatch for a roach/zergling or zergling/baneling bust? If so, how do you hold it off?
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I think this sounds like an awesome build that gives a solid way to pressure zerg and transition to your tech of choice. Good work!
My only concern is (as many ppl have already said in this thread) that this style requires a lot of micro and macro skill. So to all those higher ranked players out there, would you suggest this build to players below diamond level?
I personally would really like to learn this build but im afraid that it may not serve to hone my 'basic' skills. As low ranked players just wanting to develop into a better overall player, should we just stick with the 3 gate sentry expand into 2 base 4 gate colossus build (which ppl argue is the less micro-intensive method)?
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I hoped you'd have more replays besides the ones from the Stars War tournament. I watched those like 8 times already.
edit: On July 03 2011 02:11 CCalms wrote:
Note: lovecd makes his forge on the high ground. This is sliiightly less optimal but is much preferred imo to ace's method which auto-loses to early pool.
I think he built the forge on the high ground so Zerg can't see that he's upgrading and even chronoboosting the forge. You can imo just as easily wall off on the bottom of the ramp.
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On July 20 2011 11:14 bankai wrote:
I think this sounds like an awesome build that gives a solid way to pressure zerg and transition to your tech of choice. Good work!
My only concern is (as many ppl have already said in this thread) that this style requires a lot of micro and macro skill. So to all those higher ranked players out there, would you suggest this build to players below diamond level?
I personally would really like to learn this build but im afraid that it may not serve to hone my 'basic' skills. As low ranked players just wanting to develop into a better overall player, should we just stick with the 3 gate sentry expand into 2 base 4 gate colossus build (which ppl argue is the less micro-intensive method)?
Sorry reposting this cos i would really like to know the answer so i can start practicing right away! 
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EPT
