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On June 24 2011 05:37 Nevuk wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2011 00:25 tuestresfat wrote:On June 23 2011 00:04 RobCorso wrote:
Personally my favorite strategy, but I prefer fast armor with blink stalkers; it flows better because stalkers are meant to tank (they don't have the highest dps if you know what I mean). Very nice build though. Thank you for doing the work for me :D I've had trouble getting this build correctly as I have never seen those players before. Stalkers can't tank for shit. They have below average dps that scales terribly with upgrades. Their greatest asset is their mobility. I think the point isn't that they are meant to tank, the point is that their survivability is what makes them so good, and armor increases this. Perfect blink micro can make you effectively able to pool the entire hp of your stalker force, and armor increases the pool as a whole. An early armor upgrade lets you take an additional hit before needing to blink, usually. So if your reactions are a little slow it's probably better to go armor first - but if your reactions are slow then going blink stalker probably isn't best. Granted, attack is still probably better most of the time, as killing the enemy off 1-3 seconds earlier means 1-3 seconds less damage overall - probably saving just as much damage. As someone mentioned earlier in the thread, it really comes down to what you are against.
This just makes zero sense because ideally you're blinking your stalkers back before they take any health damage, ie. armor will have no effect.
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On June 24 2011 05:41 Shifft wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2011 05:37 Nevuk wrote:On June 23 2011 00:25 tuestresfat wrote:On June 23 2011 00:04 RobCorso wrote:
Personally my favorite strategy, but I prefer fast armor with blink stalkers; it flows better because stalkers are meant to tank (they don't have the highest dps if you know what I mean). Very nice build though. Thank you for doing the work for me :D I've had trouble getting this build correctly as I have never seen those players before. Stalkers can't tank for shit. They have below average dps that scales terribly with upgrades. Their greatest asset is their mobility. I think the point isn't that they are meant to tank, the point is that their survivability is what makes them so good, and armor increases this. Perfect blink micro can make you effectively able to pool the entire hp of your stalker force, and armor increases the pool as a whole. An early armor upgrade lets you take an additional hit before needing to blink, usually. So if your reactions are a little slow it's probably better to go armor first - but if your reactions are slow then going blink stalker probably isn't best. Granted, attack is still probably better most of the time, as killing the enemy off 1-3 seconds earlier means 1-3 seconds less damage overall - probably saving just as much damage. As someone mentioned earlier in the thread, it really comes down to what you are against. This just makes zero sense because ideally you're blinking your stalkers back before they take any health damage, ie. armor will have no effect.
The ideal happening in fights at the 12 minute mark is pretty unlikely. This kind of makes a case for shields over armor, though. (But shields are as expensive as weapons + armor combined).
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Here are some replays of me (currently 1330 masters) vs fairly high rated masters zergs with this style, some notes
1. I didn't follow the new updated BO posted in the OP, but generally same build.
2. I used the blink stalkers for the most part, as being defensive rather than offensive because the people I played were fairly aggressive.
Game 1: vs 1550 zerg - lots of drops from z
http://drop.sc/16054
Game2: vs 1390 z with 300 bonus pool
http://drop.sc/16053
let me know if you guys can help me refine using this, I LOVE it :D
edit: I find that using the blink stalkers to secure your third and turtle up while poking around with blink stalkers and dts is soooooooooooooooooooooooooooo good.
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This looks really good, one question
Can this build hold off against Roach/Ling aggression/all in ? it usually come around 8 mins
No offense, just wondering, im new here and usually die because of those aggression
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On June 24 2011 18:00 skyafterrain wrote:
This looks really good, one question
Can this build hold off against Roach/Ling aggression/all in ? it usually come around 8 mins
No offense, just wondering, im new here and usually die because of those aggression
I´m basicly wondering the same thing since I´ve used this build some ladder games but the result have been a roach all in or the Z just overwhelming my base with lings with or without +1.
Is it just my scouting that´s failing? Just add more cannons if I get a hint that a cheese/all in is coming?
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I've loved my blink stalkers since the very beginning and copied some of Kiwikaki's builds way back...before everyone and their mother started bunkering towards colossus/voidray, which I, personally, have always found rather boring.
The main point I want to point out and that I deem to be very important for many of the non-grandmaster-people ( basicly everyone I guess? ) is the following: we all watch pro-gamers day in, day out, watch zergs macro their giant ling/roach/whatever forces up and then we doubt that anything that isn't deathball play could possibly stand a chance against this constant flow of cheap, cost effective units. Nevertheless, what I think many don't take into account is, that we DO NOT play vs zergs that have macro and multitasking like idra and ret. The reason why most skilled zergs have managed to outmacro us is, that we LET them by playing super-defensively. I mean, not moving out of the base before having a 200/200 stalker/colossus/voidray ball surely doesn't test the multitasking of our opponents.
Blink stalkers is the exact opposite playstyle. It is really annoying to play against and is supposed to keep your opponent on his toes. Macro while blinking isn't easy, but neither is macro while defending against blinking. A style like this might seem weak when watching super-skilled zergs in GSL, but on "our" skill-level it really serves the purpose of forcing zerg into making mistakes! If you can macro up to 3 base and tech behind constant blink stalker pressure then zergs will have a much harder time outmacroing you.
On the problem of forge FE: personally, I'm currently playing around a lot with one gate FE in single player...if you've seen socke destroy ret on shakuras with a one gate FE into blink rush, then you'll know that this can be extremely strong. This does NOT mean that forge FE is inferiour, it's an alternative approach that serves two distinct purposes:
a) Make fast 6 gate blink viable on maps that aren't good for forge FE
b) Hide your tech as well as possible: one gate FE is inferior economicly but should - in theory - force zerg into a more defensive opening since a one gate FE opening build does NOT exclude a one base all-in, while forge FE does.
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Just wanted to say how excited I am to see Xiaot (AbuseYourDNA).
Chinese Warcraftlers for the Win!
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No real need for a build order as you can just say two-base Blink Stalker with quick attack upgrades and everyone is gonna know exactly what that means.
Problem with this strategy is that you NEED insane micro, obviously to you I know. But recommending this as a general build probably is not the best idea for ladder.
Plus this is an aggro intensive build that focuses all your attention to Stalker micro with room for little else. You simply cannot macro as effectively while doing this, I don't care if you are masters or whatever. Which simply makes this an all-in that you cannot easily recover from.
Either that or the slow and weak attacks of the Stalkers will simply be overwhelmed by Hydralisk the second you look away.
For that reason I wouldn't use this as your standard build versus Zerg, learn some less micro-intensive builds like the 6-gate timing attack, add Blink in and transitioning into mass Stalker would probably be more safe and stop you from getting into bad macro habits.
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On June 24 2011 18:32 sleepingdog wrote:
On the problem of forge FE: personally, I'm currently playing around a lot with one gate FE in single player...if you've seen socke destroy ret on shakuras with a one gate FE into blink rush, then you'll know that this can be extremely strong. This does NOT mean that forge FE is inferiour, it's an alternative approach that serves two distinct purposes:
a) Make fast 6 gate blink viable on maps that aren't good for forge FE
b) Hide your tech as well as possible: one gate FE is inferior economicly but should - in theory - force zerg into a more defensive opening since a one gate FE opening build does NOT exclude a one base all-in, while forge FE does.
I've been playing around with this too. I do think forge fe is better on maps that allow it though. The 1gate fe into blink build basically works the same, but it's a lot weaker to a roach/ling all-in imo making ti pretty risky. If the map is really bad for forge fe I usually dt expand, and then transition into blink and weapon upgrades.
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lovecd blink micro against dimaga was amazing. but if you make the slightest mistake you lose all ur army and lose.
this is definatly not noob friendly, and as a low masters player im not even close to confident about doing something like this.
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Canada13405 Posts
Awesome video thank you for linking it :D Off to 1v1 the AI to try to learn that opening and Plan
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There was also some discussion of this build here: Kiwikaki's 7 gate +2 attack blink PvZ(though generally consensus is that it's not kiwi's. Everyone has been doing this build lately in PvZ. FXOz did it in the GSTL, Sen just did it on his stream (messing around playing protoss) it's hit me on ladder a bunch. I'm not really sure what's the best response. I'd say rushes infestors and upgraded lings as well, but it's pretty hard to scout. If you see both the twilight council and the robo it could be collosus tech with fast blink.
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On June 23 2011 00:51 ABCSFirebird wrote:
Xiaot vs IdrA isn't the above mentioned bo?
Yeah it is delayed and more passive, but I really like his style. I would suggest the replay to anyone interested in this build. His Force Fields were godly, and I like how he implemented a few Immortals and 8 Sentries in there to deny any Roach flooding.
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Tried it a couple of times today...
I'm high diamond with 90~110 and I really can't blink micro and macro well...
I feel also it's pretty hard to transition out of mass blink stalkers if you don't do a ton of damage or kill the opponent right when you attack with the +2/blink stalkers.
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On June 25 2011 07:08 UmbeXCII wrote:
Tried it a couple of times today...
I'm high diamond with 90~110 and I really can't blink micro and macro well...
I feel also it's pretty hard to transition out of mass blink stalkers if you don't do a ton of damage or kill the opponent right when you attack with the +2/blink stalkers.
This build basically set you up to many Tech paths, you have TC/ Robo
I think this build is really good cause you got a lot better upgrade than your opp, with blink, you can easily destroy all of zerg army but it also need a lot of skill to play, which I basically dont have at the moment, still I can pull something out of this build, at least this build does not suggest you to turtle until 200/200. You have to pressure Zerg with somethings !
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On June 25 2011 09:18 skyafterrain wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2011 07:08 UmbeXCII wrote:
Tried it a couple of times today...
I'm high diamond with 90~110 and I really can't blink micro and macro well...
I feel also it's pretty hard to transition out of mass blink stalkers if you don't do a ton of damage or kill the opponent right when you attack with the +2/blink stalkers. This build basically set you up to many Tech paths, you have TC/ Robo I think this build is really good cause you got a lot better upgrade than your opp, with blink, you can easily destroy all of zerg army but it also need a lot of skill to play, which I basically dont have at the moment, still I can pull something out of this build, at least this build does not suggest you to turtle until 200/200. You have to pressure Zerg with somethings !
Yeah, I agree, I feel this build works best with a clear timing attack in mind around the 10 minute mark and then transition into an expo with either Colossus or Templar. But you must be proactive with this build in order for it to work.
As someone already posted, blink stalkers work best with a lot of space to play around with.
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i dont really see how this build is any new... early 2 bases lings with good upgrades infestors crush this (aka destiny forever 2 bases style). This basicly a way trying to apply TvZ into PvZ using the DPS of well upgraded stalks and blink mobility which 2-2 lings +fugnal just destroy it.
Any abusing mobility? u clearly hvnt seen blink stalkers +mothership on NA sever... Compare to that build, this one is just child play.
Not trying to bash/troll but I strongly recommend people dont use it else you just gona hear more cry about infestor imbalance (which i think is ballanced as a high level NA Protoss)
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I really think that Defensive Roach Hydra into Neural Infestor should rock this, but you need to either end it before collo or get that neural timing before the collo comes.
If they go Templar after i think that you would go faster T3 maybe, and try to avoid getting your infestors feed backed.
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Twlight/FXOz did something similar in the team league IIRC.
I don't think a lot of protoss realize this but ling/bling to counter stalker uses up a LOT of larvae which is part of the reason it's not a hard-counter like most people seem to believe. It's also quite easy to blink a single stalker into the banelings to cut down the numbers.
This isn't just a "200/200 blink stalker push lol" it's supposed to put pressure on the Zerg abusing blink stalker's mobility, take a 3rd (albeit late), and transition into your more standard PvZ play. You don't just crash this army into a Zerg's army for the most part (although blink stalkers fare surprisingly well against all their "counters" if you have gosu micro), you blink around and pick off whatever you can while you take a 3rd. It's a really strong build, but is VERY unforgiving. As a Zerg player I can say it's a build that can cause a lot of grief, but it's also a build where mismicroing can REALLY screw the toss over. Also good to note is that if you scout ling/bling/infestor you can transition into Archons/HTs (or Colossus if you scout roach/hydra) whenever necessary. It's a really strong timing attack that actually has a follow-up, although the Chinese version does rely on doing some damage to keep the Zerg from just overwhelming you.
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EPT
