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"Do you always get weapon upgrades?"
In most cases weapons is better, but like some people pointed out correctly (thanks!) armor is better against mutaling and against heavy ling/infestor styles it's also very viable.
I would like to contend this point, or at least part of it. When using Blink Stalkers as a primary force, shield upgrades are superior to armor upgrades; especially if you intend to transition into archons. The reasoning here is simple: when properly executed, stalkers should be blinking away from the engagement as their shields deplete, to prevent taking damage which cannot be recovered. Having higher shield upgrades means your shields last longer so you can endure the punishment that much longer. This transitions really well into archons because their extremely high shields benefit tremendously from the upgrade.
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"They use a strategy that seems rather unorthodox on the NA/EU server"
Every wc3 player that switched to toss -> mass blink stalker :D
Having in mind that wc3 was huge in China, no surprise here.
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How do you do with this build when you face mutalisks?
I know blink stalkers should counter it but let's say you can't attack your opponent because he has superb amount of lings + lots of spinecrawlers. And mutalisks all around so you need blink stalkers to stay up in food and be able to defend, even if you manage to snipe all mutalisks doesn't that puts you behind? I tried this thing but got first owned by like speedling/mutalisk transition into ultralisk/infestor/lings, I just want to know how to counter it.
Else the old regular roach/hydra compositon or anything with those in it this build totally demolishes, really hardcore.  =
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On June 24 2011 01:02 eYeball wrote:How do you do with this build when you face mutalisks? I know blink stalkers should counter it but let's say you can't attack your opponent because he has superb amount of lings + lots of spinecrawlers. And mutalisks all around so you need blink stalkers to stay up in food and be able to defend, even if you manage to snipe all mutalisks doesn't that puts you behind? I tried this thing but got first owned by like speedling/mutalisk transition into ultralisk/infestor/lings, I just want to know how to counter it. Else the old regular roach/hydra compositon or anything with those in it this build totally demolishes, really hardcore. =
Archons are super good against mutalisks and Blink stalkers kind of set you up for it.
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On June 24 2011 01:15 Blasterion wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2011 01:02 eYeball wrote:How do you do with this build when you face mutalisks? I know blink stalkers should counter it but let's say you can't attack your opponent because he has superb amount of lings + lots of spinecrawlers. And mutalisks all around so you need blink stalkers to stay up in food and be able to defend, even if you manage to snipe all mutalisks doesn't that puts you behind? I tried this thing but got first owned by like speedling/mutalisk transition into ultralisk/infestor/lings, I just want to know how to counter it. Else the old regular roach/hydra compositon or anything with those in it this build totally demolishes, really hardcore. = Archons are super good against mutalisks and Blink stalkers kind of set you up for it.
@Blasterion, with my previous point, you need dark templar shrine to go archons anyways, so at least use them to harass. Not with the army, of course. Although sniping infestors WOULD be nice
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question i am doing this build but have trouble vs hydra roach compo what should i do?
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On June 24 2011 01:45 pownage wrote:
question i am doing this build but have trouble vs hydra roach compo what should i do?
That is a hard question to answer. Do you have a replay?
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This is a very allin type strat that if you don't do dmg with falls on its face. Hydra roach does just fine against it and can deny your third till you starve out. I'm not saying its not effective but you need to be transitioning and make smart trades because you will lose (see idra cruncher in the col tournament the name escapes me atm) I suggest switching to templar if you manage to get up your third.
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On June 24 2011 01:45 pownage wrote:
question i am doing this build but have trouble vs hydra roach compo what should i do?
vs hydra/roach you want to just get colossi, stalker/colossus is still awesome against roach/hydra even if you don't have as many sentries.
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On June 24 2011 02:07 Markwerf wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2011 01:45 pownage wrote:
question i am doing this build but have trouble vs hydra roach compo what should i do?
vs hydra/roach you want to just get colossi, stalker/colossus is still awesome against roach/hydra even if you don't have as many sentries.
Archons and Chargelots also do great. The power of archons is usually overlooked
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On June 24 2011 01:57 CajunMan wrote:
This is a very allin type strat that if you don't do dmg with falls on its face. Hydra roach does just fine against it and can deny your third till you starve out. I'm not saying its not effective but you need to be transitioning and make smart trades because you will lose (see idra cruncher in the col tournament the name escapes me atm) I suggest switching to templar if you manage to get up your third.
The timings guarantee that you'll be able to do damage. Hydra/roach is too immobile off creep (well, the hydras are). If he moves towards your base to attack, you move out, kill the roaches with kiting (even if they have speed) and by using blink, and when there's not that many roaches left, the hydras are not that scary.
You don't want to trade an army for an army though. In fact, you shouldn't be losing that many units to a roach/hydra army, you should be slowly withering him down by using blink. Eventually his army will become small. You should have some kind of back-up plan by now. For example: Colossi, High Templars/Archons, Dark Templars.
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On June 24 2011 02:22 iChau wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2011 01:57 CajunMan wrote:
This is a very allin type strat that if you don't do dmg with falls on its face. Hydra roach does just fine against it and can deny your third till you starve out. I'm not saying its not effective but you need to be transitioning and make smart trades because you will lose (see idra cruncher in the col tournament the name escapes me atm) I suggest switching to templar if you manage to get up your third. The timings guarantee that you'll be able to do damage. Hydra/roach is too immobile off creep (well, the hydras are). If he moves towards your base to attack, you move out, kill the roaches with kiting (even if they have speed) and by using blink, and when there's not that many roaches left, the hydras are not that scary. You don't want to trade an army for an army though. In fact, you shouldn't be losing that many units to a roach/hydra army, you should be slowly withering him down by using blink. Eventually his army will become small. You should have some kind of back-up plan by now. For example: Colossi, High Templars/Archons, Dark Templars.
I find DT=> Archons are really strong to transition into. Especially if the zerg is ling heavy, which they might be if they see you go stalker heavy
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On June 24 2011 02:31 Blasterion wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2011 02:22 iChau wrote:On June 24 2011 01:57 CajunMan wrote:
This is a very allin type strat that if you don't do dmg with falls on its face. Hydra roach does just fine against it and can deny your third till you starve out. I'm not saying its not effective but you need to be transitioning and make smart trades because you will lose (see idra cruncher in the col tournament the name escapes me atm) I suggest switching to templar if you manage to get up your third. The timings guarantee that you'll be able to do damage. Hydra/roach is too immobile off creep (well, the hydras are). If he moves towards your base to attack, you move out, kill the roaches with kiting (even if they have speed) and by using blink, and when there's not that many roaches left, the hydras are not that scary. You don't want to trade an army for an army though. In fact, you shouldn't be losing that many units to a roach/hydra army, you should be slowly withering him down by using blink. Eventually his army will become small. You should have some kind of back-up plan by now. For example: Colossi, High Templars/Archons, Dark Templars. I find DT=> Archons are really strong to transition into. Especially if the zerg is ling heavy, which they might be if they see you go stalker heavy
Transitioning into archons especially when made from DT is awful against roach play imo. Archons simply suck vs pure roach/hydra (+corruptor/infestor). Roaches have such a size that they don't really take splash damage from archons, without splash archons are just not that good as even against bio their damage is terrible.
Zealots and archons only have a place in PvZ imo when they go with melee based play, against something else it's not worth it.
The beauty of opening blink stalkers imo is the powerful transitions it has, stalkers are good in any combo against zerg. Get colossi vs roach/hydra play (ranged ups) and zealot/archon against melee based play (ling/bling/infestor/muta whatever).
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I guess it definatly depends on the map and the situation because someone with good creep spread can bottle neck you into only a few places to attack without being surrounded. Also depending on the map the zerg can take his third and just put on the hurt with constant rienforcing. All situationals I suppose I'm not saying its bad but this isn't a cureall. And you should be afraid of roaches if you can't control the creep spread they are damn fast. The biggest point I'm making is plan to take a third at all costs if he blocks yours all game there will come a point where he is 2-2 maxed and you won't be able to compete straight up anymore.
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I've been experimenting with this style and I've found that when you transition and get your third base up the tech choice is very important. Roaches are surprisingly tanky to storms and you absolutely need collossi. This is probably the only situation that I would favor collossus over storm.
Once you get to 4-5 bases you might as well get both ! This strategy requires high apm too. Caution is advised
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On June 24 2011 02:46 Markwerf wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2011 02:31 Blasterion wrote:On June 24 2011 02:22 iChau wrote:On June 24 2011 01:57 CajunMan wrote:
This is a very allin type strat that if you don't do dmg with falls on its face. Hydra roach does just fine against it and can deny your third till you starve out. I'm not saying its not effective but you need to be transitioning and make smart trades because you will lose (see idra cruncher in the col tournament the name escapes me atm) I suggest switching to templar if you manage to get up your third. The timings guarantee that you'll be able to do damage. Hydra/roach is too immobile off creep (well, the hydras are). If he moves towards your base to attack, you move out, kill the roaches with kiting (even if they have speed) and by using blink, and when there's not that many roaches left, the hydras are not that scary. You don't want to trade an army for an army though. In fact, you shouldn't be losing that many units to a roach/hydra army, you should be slowly withering him down by using blink. Eventually his army will become small. You should have some kind of back-up plan by now. For example: Colossi, High Templars/Archons, Dark Templars. I find DT=> Archons are really strong to transition into. Especially if the zerg is ling heavy, which they might be if they see you go stalker heavy Transitioning into archons especially when made from DT is awful against roach play imo. Archons simply suck vs pure roach/hydra (+corruptor/infestor). Roaches have such a size that they don't really take splash damage from archons, without splash archons are just not that good as even against bio their damage is terrible. Zealots and archons only have a place in PvZ imo when they go with melee based play, against something else it's not worth it. The beauty of opening blink stalkers imo is the powerful transitions it has, stalkers are good in any combo against zerg. Get colossi vs roach/hydra play (ranged ups) and zealot/archon against melee based play (ling/bling/infestor/muta whatever).
Stalkers are bad vs ling/bling/ultra... like really bad.
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On June 24 2011 03:45 QTIP. wrote:
Stalkers are bad vs ling/bling/ultra... like really bad.
They are great against it. Vs that style you should either go chargelot/archon, or blink with templar/archon or colossi.
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It's actually the other way around, its not 1 chiense protoss, all top chinese protoss's have been using this build since March . You guys just aren't familiar with the scene there or the forums or the top level community.
For the infestor+ling unit combination question, you need to transition to archons templar or if you are confident in your forcefield micro and you have ENOUGH GAS to spare more sentry collosus.
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I love this build, but I feel like it falls pretty hard to a heavy ling style, especially if the Zerg player is going for fast infestors.
It's one of those builds where yeah, it's good, but it's weak to the same things that conventional builds are weak to, and it's not as strong as a more conventional build is against more standard roach play.
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On June 23 2011 00:25 tuestresfat wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2011 00:04 RobCorso wrote:
Personally my favorite strategy, but I prefer fast armor with blink stalkers; it flows better because stalkers are meant to tank (they don't have the highest dps if you know what I mean). Very nice build though. Thank you for doing the work for me :D I've had trouble getting this build correctly as I have never seen those players before. Stalkers can't tank for shit. They have below average dps that scales terribly with upgrades. Their greatest asset is their mobility.
I think the point isn't that they are meant to tank, the point is that their survivability is what makes them so good, and armor increases this.
Perfect blink micro can make you effectively able to pool the entire hp of your stalker force, and armor increases the pool as a whole. An early armor upgrade lets you take an additional hit before needing to blink, usually. So if your reactions are a little slow it's probably better to go armor first - but if your reactions are slow then going blink stalker probably isn't best.
Granted, attack is still probably better most of the time, as killing the enemy off 1-3 seconds earlier means 1-3 seconds less damage overall - probably saving just as much damage.
As someone mentioned earlier in the thread, it really comes down to what you are against.
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EPT
