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Korea (South)1740 Posts
warning: *spoiler alert*~~
everyone is talking about how bad boxer was in 8 rax cheese rushing yellow three times in a row and how bad yellow was in not adjusting his build to block it. but i see things a little differently-- i think they both showed something great in these series.
boxer's rushes weren't designed to win the games outright, although they did end up doing just that in 2 out of the 3 games. they were designed to gain an advantage for the remainder-- i.e. exactly what happened in game 1. it's a testament to the respect boxer has for yellow in doing things like this against him (i.e. his cheese rush on bladestorm). also, these cheese rushes weren't just normal cheese rushes-- they were really designed and refined to take advantage of that very small window of opportunity that ANY (even 9-hatch) double hatch build affords. boxer is a real winner, a true pro, and i'm guessing that more terrans will be cheese rushing after seeing this series-- boxer doesn't fuck around, he changes the way people think about sc.
i also have newfound respect for yellow as well because he continually hatched his natural despite knowing how boxer would come out in games 2 and 3. while this might seem utterly stupid, yellow is not an utterly stupid gamer. i really think it was because he refused to let boxer win the mental game-within-the-game to determine the pace of play. he had the confidence that he could stop the cheese rushes by going 9-hatch and/or with drone micro-- and in a sense i feel like he was daring boxer to cheese rush him over and over, feeling like if he could stop it, he would win. it was like one long extended game of mental chicken, and in this round boxer won. there's something admirable about not giving in, however-- less confident or determined souls would have clearly just become defensive after game 1, and certainly after game 2.
i know i won't forget this series, despite the fact we didn't see "incredible" micro or a close back and forth series of games. there are plenty of those to go around, especially the other games bewteen boxer and yellow, and there will be plenty more of those in the future. but i highly doubt we'll ever see a series like this again.
of course this is just my opinion, but feel free to flame and otherwise twist my logic around ^^;;
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You always make such nice and intresting posts, way to go <3 
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On November 12 2004 10:12 uhjoo wrote:
warning: *spoiler alert*~~
everyone is talking about how bad boxer was in 8 rax cheese rushing yellow three times in a row and how bad yellow was in not adjusting his build to block it. but i see things a little differently-- i think they both showed something great in these series.
boxer's rushes weren't designed to win the games outright, although they did end up doing just that in 2 out of the 3 games. they were designed to gain an advantage for the remainder-- i.e. exactly what happened in game 1. it's a testament to the respect boxer has for yellow in doing things like this against him (i.e. his cheese rush on bladestorm). also, these cheese rushes weren't just normal cheese rushes-- they were really designed and refined to take advantage of that very small window of opportunity that ANY (even 9-hatch) double hatch build affords. boxer is a real winner, a true pro, and i'm guessing that more terrans will be cheese rushing after seeing this series-- boxer doesn't fuck around, he changes the way people think about sc.
i also have newfound respect for yellow as well because he continually hatched his natural despite knowing how boxer would come out in games 2 and 3. while this might seem utterly stupid, yellow is not an utterly stupid gamer. i really think it was because he refused to let boxer win the mental game-within-the-game to determine the pace of play. he had the confidence that he could stop the cheese rushes by going 9-hatch and/or with drone micro-- and in a sense i feel like he was daring boxer to cheese rush him over and over, feeling like if he could stop it, he would win. it was like one long extended game of mental chicken, and in this round boxer won. there's something admirable about not giving in, however-- less confident or determined souls would have clearly just become defensive after game 1, and certainly after game 2.
i know i won't forget this series, despite the fact we didn't see "incredible" micro or a close back and forth series of games. there are plenty of those to go around, especially the other games bewteen boxer and yellow, and there will be plenty more of those in the future. but i highly doubt we'll ever see a series like this again.
of course this is just my opinion, but feel free to flame and otherwise twist my logic around ^^;;
i agree with you
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boxer does alter the way people think about sc... i am sure we will see other pros taking on this rush strategy, and eventually battle.net. as a zerg player i cant help but feel a little unsettled by it because that early expansion is the only thing that keeps a zerg alive in zvt... i'm sure that players will find a way to adapt, however, like they always have.
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On November 12 2004 10:12 uhjoo wrote:
i also have newfound respect for yellow as well because he continually hatched his natural despite knowing how boxer would come out in games 2 and 3. while this might seem utterly stupid, yellow is not an utterly stupid gamer. i really think it was because he refused to let boxer win the mental game-within-the-game to determine the pace of play. he had the confidence that he could stop the cheese rushes by going 9-hatch and/or with drone micro-- and in a sense i feel like he was daring boxer to cheese rush him over and over, feeling like if he could stop it, he would win. it was like one long extended game of mental chicken, and in this round boxer won. there's something admirable about not giving in, however-- less confident or determined souls would have clearly just become defensive after game 1, and certainly after game 2.
yes, perfectly explained. yellow was looking to win the whole series, not just the particular game he was currently playing. a solid non-pool win for yellow would psychologically help him later in the series.
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May be after this match, zerg 12 hatch won't be considered as safe anymore and we'll see more 8rax than before. Boxer has the power to "shape" the SC standard, he did it many times in the past and may be right now he just does.
BOXER = GOD 
Other side of the story:
Boxer laid down on his bed, thinking "oh shit, i'll be playing yellow next several days and i didn't do shit". Then Boxer began to think of all the possible alternative strategies he could go against yellow "damn, there's no way I can beat this guy, the only way is to cheese him. Hmm the comp can do 8 rax, hey, i can do it better than the comp, let's perfect this strat"
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yes boxer strat was great but the only real problem most of us have is that
this is another YELLOW VS BOXER classic and wanted another long game with lurkers getting owned by marines.
tanks getting flanked my lings.
ultras getting smashed by d matrixed tanks.
they wanted a legendary game but all they got was scv bunker rush
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Korea (South)1740 Posts
On November 12 2004 10:27 ahk-gosu wrote:
yes boxer strat was great but the only real problem most of us have is that
this is another YELLOW VS BOXER classic and wanted another long game with lurkers getting owned by marines.
tanks getting flanked my lings.
ultras getting smashed by d matrixed tanks.
they wanted a legendary game but all they got was scv bunker rush
put differently, people wanted more coke but all of a sudden they got wine.
imo, wine tastes good if you know what to look for.
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ZvT build orders are often rock-paper-scissors, because you often have to make decisions before you have vital information about your opponent.
The chances of Boxer doing Barracks before Depot were the same in game1 as in game2 and game3. There was no indication that he would do the same strat again, in fact it's rather rare to do something twice in a row. Therefore he took the exact same risk in each game. He could've went Pool first in game3, only because of the fact that, if he were to lose 3 games in a row the same way it would've been (is) humiliating, but it was his choice. We Zergs often gamble a lot.
I'm so sick and tired of hearing overly in-depth analysises of the build orders and decision-making of progamers, when in reality it's actually really simple - YellOw was a bit unlucky, took the risk and was punished for it.
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zergs take huge risks getting expansions with their first hatchery.
a really fast protoss can take down a expo with zlot rush pretty easily
a bunker rush can take it out also but we often dont use this type of cheese.
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ahk, no. Its not a huge risk, its vital in zvt.
For the love of god please think before you post something or at least have some knowledge about it.
1 base terran vs 1 base zerg isnt that hard for the terran to play against especially at a high level with the micro and macro that they have. Games would be sort of similar to korhal, where xellos just dismantled day :O
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Beat me to what I was going to post 
What do you mean they weren't designed to win the game outright? Zerg loses an expansion hatch like that and it's pretty much over. What happend in game 1 was boxer showing some mercy and not finishing him..he could have easily. I don't know how cheesing him every game shows respect, how did you come to that conclusion? They weren't refined and special, it was a basic marine/scv cheese rush, and I doubt we'll see a bunch of pro gamers doing this, because it's gay and provides no entertainment value.. I don't think yellow "wasn't letting boxer win the mental game" he just didn't think boxer would cheese him every single game.. I don't blame yellow for doing it, because usually no one is going to be gay enough to cheese every game, especially a pro gamer..
I definantly lost some respect for Boxer
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On November 12 2004 10:48 Sadist wrote:
Games would be sort of similar to korhal, where xellos just dismantled day :O
I loved that game, it's also promoted by that wcg music video.
On November 12 2004 10:54 hasuwar wrote:Beat me to what I was going to post What do you mean they weren't designed to win the game outright? Zerg loses an expansion hatch like that and it's pretty much over. What happend in game 1 was boxer showing some mercy and not finishing him..he could have easily. I don't know how cheesing him every game shows respect, how did you come to that conclusion? They weren't refined and special, it was a basic marine/scv cheese rush, and I doubt we'll see a bunch of pro gamers doing this, because it's gay and provides no entertainment value.. I don't think yellow "wasn't letting boxer win the mental game" he just didn't think boxer would cheese him every single game.. I don't blame yellow for doing it, because usually no one is going to be gay enough to cheese every game, especially a pro gamer.. I definantly lost some respect for Boxer
Dude boxer himself said in the interview that he work on that build very hard, and partice alot with the help of many people, including beating julyzerg 5 straight. and surely julyzerg knows boxer is ganna do the same shit all those 5 games in partice game, and july still lost. which means the build boxer came up with is well refined and like boxer said in his interview, he's confident on low unit count micro games. he playing toward his strength of his game play by forcing yellow to micro war with him early. you mention the word "cheese" alot, I assume that what you meant by "cheese" is when a strategy is a do or die, and more often it will fail than succese by catching your foe off gaurd. But Boxer's strategy succesed more often than it failed. in fact it appearently didn't fail once even without the "catching your foe off gaurd" part of it when he's particing vs julyzerg.
so what you said about boxer's build is not refined and special and it's just a "basic cheese"(you meaning every noob can do the same like boxer did) is completely false.
You are owned in logic, since boxer's build is not a do or die build, he only "do" but never did he "die" once. so you can't call his bulid a cheese. it's a strong strategy with low failing rate due to his superior micro ability is none parallel by anyone.
as for your comment on yellow don't think boxer will use that same strategy every game, and just got kill every single time. No yellow do know what boxer is doing, yellow know that if he survive boxer's "do or die" strategy he will give boxer the "die" part of boxer's own strategy. yellow's counting on it, but he failed to realize he played right intot he strength of boxer's game which is low unit count micro intensive game. It wasn't a "mental war" , it wasn't "yellow don't expect it" it was yellow try to beat boxer in his own game but failed. and you have to respect yellow for his effort. Althought i think for yellow's part he is little foolhardy to challenge boxer in micro war.
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Catyoul
France2377 Posts
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Korea (South)1740 Posts
On November 12 2004 11:45 Catyoul wrote:I think a lot of people should go back and read Sirlin's Play to Win
wow this is a great set of articles. honestly.
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I agree and re-affirm the endorsement for sirlin's anti-scrub articles.
I'm definatly looking forward to downloading these vods, even after hearing the live report. To me a bunker rush is no less exciting or skill than a drawn out macro/harrassment war.
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Yeah I think that now. We, zerg players, will enter a new era of noob terrans trying to rush us like boxer. So let's respond to this by our 4-7-9 pool or 9-10hatch and show them the power of the swarm by winning tons of games VS those newbs!!!
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Is there something in the air today?
Build a barracks on 8, make two marines, and attack with 6 scvs..what the hell do you have to practice in this strategy? Stay out of a line to a resource so he can't hit attack?
Yes, any newb can beat 9 drones with 6 scvs, two marines, and an upcoming bunker if you ask me
It's not strong because of his super leet micro (not to say that he doesn't have it), it's strong because the zerg got caught with his pants down every time and had to fight with drones only..
Yes, I'm sure yellow knew boxer was going to do this everytime, and that his secret plan was to try to beat back 6 scvs, a bunker, and marines with drones only to win..are you that fuckin' stupid?
I'd be pretty pissed off if I was yellow..they always seem so friendly in the pictures and shit..for him to cheese him every game and not try to play one straight game with him was pretty fuckin sad
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boxer owned yellow 3-0 wich is quite fantastic. I`m a boxer fan all the way, but seeing how yellow has been owning up in kt-ktf as well I was kinda worried, but he dismantled him damn fast. And then people only complain, makes me sad. Of course I would have loved another classic back and forth match, but Boxer won, he used a good build and beat yellow 3-0 it wasn`t a fucking gamble by him. It was a refined build that was supposed to stop yellow from macroing too hard. And it worked like a charm. Boxer is my hero even more after this semi fianl :D
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On November 12 2004 12:11 hasuwar wrote:
Is there something in the air today?
Build a barracks on 8, make two marines, and attack with 6 scvs..what the hell do you have to practice in this strategy? Stay out of a line to a resource so he can't hit attack?
Yes, any newb can beat 9 drones with 6 scvs, two marines, and an upcoming bunker if you ask me
It's not strong because of his super leet micro (not to say that he doesn't have it), it's strong because the zerg got caught with his pants down every time and had to fight with drones only..
Yes, I'm sure yellow knew boxer was going to do this everytime, and that his secret plan was to try to beat back 6 scvs, a bunker, and marines with drones only to win..are you that fuckin' stupid?
I'd be pretty pissed off if I was yellow..they always seem so friendly in the pictures and shit..for him to cheese him every game and not try to play one straight game with him was pretty fuckin sad
You are a fucking retard. You obviously don't understand the interview with Boxer, you obviously don't understand Korean culture, and you for damn sure don't understand this game. Quit it please.
This game is not so imbalanced in TvZ that the Zerg [ a PROGAMER ] zerg cannot stop a certain type of rush. This strat that Boxer invented is comparable to July's recent raping of the last starleague. No one knew how to stop his aggressive type of play, so boxer invented a even MORE aggressive style that beat July 5-0. So please stfu dude, you know absolutely nothing.
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EPT
