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On November 12 2004 11:59 yomi wrote:
I agree and re-affirm the endorsement for sirlin's anti-scrub articles.
I'm definatly looking forward to downloading these vods, even after hearing the live report. To me a bunker rush is no less exciting or skill than a drawn out macro/harrassment war.
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Korea (South)1740 Posts
On November 12 2004 14:10 Honk2000 wrote:
what if silent_control gamed like that vs yellow? would everybody also call him a strategic genius?
while this is a good point, there's two things i'd say:
1) boxer no longer has to prove through his play that he's a strategic genius-- he is THE strategic genius of sc and his revisiting of an old and "cheesy" strat to win a series of games as important as this semi is, imo, slightly genius.
2) if silent_control could win nearly as much as boxer has and has a variety of strats as boxer has and have just one of the MANY bullets in his gun be a very strong bunker rush, then i'd say he would get much more props than he does now :-)
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The emperor is reaching for his throne once again.
It really seemed he wanted to win this series badly, and simply did whatever he had to.
The thing that won this wasnt like many say a simple cheese scv-rines strat. His mental strength won them-_- GG's
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After reading all this, it looks to me like boxer fans are a making that look a lot more than it actually was, I don't doubt for a second boxer trained that build over and over again, still bunker rushing every game in a semi final (and possibly in one of the most important series in bw history) still seems kind of....wrong (ethically speaking) to me.
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This is not the WWF people, they play to win not to entretain you....
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On November 12 2004 10:17 dsh wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2004 10:12 uhjoo wrote:
warning: *spoiler alert*~~
everyone is talking about how bad boxer was in 8 rax cheese rushing yellow three times in a row and how bad yellow was in not adjusting his build to block it. but i see things a little differently-- i think they both showed something great in these series.
boxer's rushes weren't designed to win the games outright, although they did end up doing just that in 2 out of the 3 games. they were designed to gain an advantage for the remainder-- i.e. exactly what happened in game 1. it's a testament to the respect boxer has for yellow in doing things like this against him (i.e. his cheese rush on bladestorm). also, these cheese rushes weren't just normal cheese rushes-- they were really designed and refined to take advantage of that very small window of opportunity that ANY (even 9-hatch) double hatch build affords. boxer is a real winner, a true pro, and i'm guessing that more terrans will be cheese rushing after seeing this series-- boxer doesn't fuck around, he changes the way people think about sc.
i also have newfound respect for yellow as well because he continually hatched his natural despite knowing how boxer would come out in games 2 and 3. while this might seem utterly stupid, yellow is not an utterly stupid gamer. i really think it was because he refused to let boxer win the mental game-within-the-game to determine the pace of play. he had the confidence that he could stop the cheese rushes by going 9-hatch and/or with drone micro-- and in a sense i feel like he was daring boxer to cheese rush him over and over, feeling like if he could stop it, he would win. it was like one long extended game of mental chicken, and in this round boxer won. there's something admirable about not giving in, however-- less confident or determined souls would have clearly just become defensive after game 1, and certainly after game 2.
i know i won't forget this series, despite the fact we didn't see "incredible" micro or a close back and forth series of games. there are plenty of those to go around, especially the other games bewteen boxer and yellow, and there will be plenty more of those in the future. but i highly doubt we'll ever see a series like this again.
of course this is just my opinion, but feel free to flame and otherwise twist my logic around ^^;;
i agree with you
Way to quote a huge post and say 4 words. TL could use less of these shit posts.
I haven't seen the series yet, and I think there is something interesting about the outcome. I also can't blame either player. But it does strike me as a bit boring, I probably won't bother to watch the games now that I know what happened(And I really was looking forward to the match for a good 3 weeks, if I was there live I would have probably felt really discouraged). I feel really bad for Yellow but I suppose next time maybe he will catch on a bit quicker. Also this might be one of the first big controversies for BW, perhaps people will lose interest if the game keeps up in this manner.
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boxer see yellow fast expanding, he knows he can beat him if he bunker rushes. Should he not do it?
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On November 12 2004 14:55 baal wrote:
This is not the WWF people, they play to win not to entretain you....
if they didn't entertain people (generally speaking) they wouldn't have a job. Don't get me wrong, I don't intend to blame Boxer or anything, he trained to get a powerfull opening and he did it, I just would hate to see every programer from now on cheese when they have an important game just because it's so important for them to get a win.
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On November 12 2004 15:04 Kobayashi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2004 14:55 baal wrote:
This is not the WWF people, they play to win not to entretain you.... if they didn't entertain people (generally speaking) they wouldn't have a job. Don't get me wrong, I don't intend to blame Boxer or anything, he trained to get a powerfull opening and he did it, I just would hate to see every programer from now on cheese when they have an important game just because it's so important for them to get a win.
Dont worry about that not everyone can "cheese" like Boxer
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On November 12 2004 15:13 Geval wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2004 15:04 Kobayashi wrote:On November 12 2004 14:55 baal wrote:
This is not the WWF people, they play to win not to entretain you.... if they didn't entertain people (generally speaking) they wouldn't have a job. Don't get me wrong, I don't intend to blame Boxer or anything, he trained to get a powerfull opening and he did it, I just would hate to see every programer from now on cheese when they have an important game just because it's so important for them to get a win. Dont worry about that not everyone can "cheese" like Boxer
yes,but if everyone focus they preparation on this kind of strats games will be decided really fast, cause it either works it doesn't, either way the game ends right there.
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On November 12 2004 15:02 Painbringer wrote:
boxer see yellow fast expanding, he knows he can beat him if he bunker rushes. Should he not do it?
this is not adaptation,this is what boxer came prepared to do
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I dont think 8 rax is as good as Boxer made it seem.Its just that he practiced it like a million times ,putting incredible thought on all the smallest details ,while Yellow began thinking of the counter at the time the scv began making the bunker...
Very smart of Boxer.I would think of it being a bit unfair play ,but im happy with the fact Boxer showed the world how important preparation is.
Btw, everyone saying Oov sux ,cause hes only playing for the win ,while Boxer is an art player- STFU NOW!!!
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Norway10161 Posts
My 2 cents.
Boxer is THE entertainer of sc. While he is the father of the game he is also the most loved for his style of play and his pleasing of the crowds. He don't have to prove himself in this matter, but I am sure he will show some amazing games vs oov in the finals.
The games vs Yellow were as much a matter of showing that he still is a top level gamer (by reaching the biggest finals in progaming) as simply winning. And he did so in true style - Yellow is yet again the most feared zerg on the planet, and his comback has overshadowed even the return of the legendary emperor of sc. But Boxer showed his absolute mastery of mind games and strategic thinking to beat Yellow once again in the most one-sided series ever.
Many people expected Yellow to finally get his revenge, while forgetting the spanking Boxer showed him in the challenge league finals leading up to this osl - where they both played straight up on a map Yellow is insanely good at.
I guess what I want to say is - Long live the King! 
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On November 12 2004 13:53 ahk-gosu wrote:
early hatchery gives the zerg a huge advantage
Bullshit
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I'm happy the NaDa era is over...
May SlayerS_`Boxer` and his pupil iloveoov rule contemporaneously in the Starcarft Realm!
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someone please tell me what is so damn great about this build boxer used... unless all the reports missed something it sounds like it was just an 8 rax. the only thing amazing about it is that he uses it vs yellow in the ogn semis 3 straight times. yes im sure he prepared it to the minutest detail... but that is true of all bo's/strats pros use in games as big as this. it isnt like he practiced this more than he would have if he used any other build. so why are all the boxer fans making this out to be so amazing?
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[B]
Boxer laid down on his bed, thinking "oh shit, i'll be playing yellow next several days and i didn't do shit". Then Boxer began to think of all the possible alternative strategies he could go against yellow "damn, there's no way I can beat this guy, the only way is to cheese him. Hmm the comp can do 8 rax, hey, i can do it better than the comp, let's perfect this strat"
hahaha thats true
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On November 12 2004 10:24 Elvin_vn wrote:
May be after this match, zerg 12 hatch won't be considered as safe anymore and we'll see more 8rax than before.
i disagree. no one has confidence in their control to be able to do it in every tvz.
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On November 12 2004 10:12 uhjoo wrote:
warning: *spoiler alert*~~
everyone is talking about how bad boxer was in 8 rax cheese rushing yellow three times in a row and how bad yellow was in not adjusting his build to block it. but i see things a little differently-- i think they both showed something great in these series.
boxer's rushes weren't designed to win the games outright, although they did end up doing just that in 2 out of the 3 games. they were designed to gain an advantage for the remainder-- i.e. exactly what happened in game 1. it's a testament to the respect boxer has for yellow in doing things like this against him (i.e. his cheese rush on bladestorm). also, these cheese rushes weren't just normal cheese rushes-- they were really designed and refined to take advantage of that very small window of opportunity that ANY (even 9-hatch) double hatch build affords. boxer is a real winner, a true pro, and i'm guessing that more terrans will be cheese rushing after seeing this series-- boxer doesn't fuck around, he changes the way people think about sc.
i also have newfound respect for yellow as well because he continually hatched his natural despite knowing how boxer would come out in games 2 and 3. while this might seem utterly stupid, yellow is not an utterly stupid gamer. i really think it was because he refused to let boxer win the mental game-within-the-game to determine the pace of play. he had the confidence that he could stop the cheese rushes by going 9-hatch and/or with drone micro-- and in a sense i feel like he was daring boxer to cheese rush him over and over, feeling like if he could stop it, he would win. it was like one long extended game of mental chicken, and in this round boxer won. there's something admirable about not giving in, however-- less confident or determined souls would have clearly just become defensive after game 1, and certainly after game 2.
i know i won't forget this series, despite the fact we didn't see "incredible" micro or a close back and forth series of games. there are plenty of those to go around, especially the other games bewteen boxer and yellow, and there will be plenty more of those in the future. but i highly doubt we'll ever see a series like this again.
of course this is just my opinion, but feel free to flame and otherwise twist my logic around ^^;;
I disagree slightly with your logic. I agree that it was a mental game of chicken, but Boxer is in complete control of that game when it comes to Yellow. If, Yellow repeatedly opened with the same build to not let Boxer control the flow of the game, then Boxer completely obliterated Yellow in mental chicken. The idea of SC is to adapt to, and counter what your opponent is doing, and if Boxer prevented Yellow from doing that, well, gg thx no re Yellow.
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well, we are talking about Boxer and Yellow -in some way he entertained us. To add more we talk about it much, it's not 'oh boxer won 3:1' but something special Boxer cheesed/used fantastic strat 3 times in a row. That;s what Boxer is supposed to do -become 'famous', so the advertisers are happy. Entertaining us is one of the ways of getting famous, winning is another, making us talk about it is good to to some degree (but if other people will cheese to, it will mean a failure).
We can only hope that tvz wont turn into one big cheese matchup, because it's not funny to watch.
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EPT
