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Boxer and Yellow and what they showed in ogn semi - Page 10

Forum Index > Brood War Tournaments
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1024MB
Profile Joined May 2004
United States1455 Posts
November 13 2004 01:07 GMT
#181
Just a question - Have any of you guys even watched the games? They arn't even over THAT fast. I bet YellOw learned some stuff from these anyway. It might actually strengthen his future game with ZvT.
You learn from losing.
[BOyGiRl]ShaRp
Profile Joined July 2004
Korea (S)1912 Posts
November 13 2004 01:11 GMT
#182
July can't go to SKT1..
Teams are going to be too uneven T-T
Its already uneven T-T
And especially for POS if July goes to SKT1 POS has no ace player who represents the team
Hexatron Bba!!
Geval
Profile Joined September 2004
788 Posts
November 13 2004 01:24 GMT
#183
what ever you guys think about this serie doenst change the fact that another Boxer vs Yellow serie went to history.
WOW cant believe LT gave me BETA KEY thx thx thx thx thx
SoL.Origin
Profile Joined September 2003
Argentina2400 Posts
November 13 2004 03:45 GMT
#184
I think people don't understand something:

Boxer practiced 8 rax a lot, yellow practiced fast exp a lot. If yellow had gone 9 pool in the 2nd game, he would have to ignore his entire training and thus be thrown into a improvisation game, which boxer is known to be the best at, not to mention that boxer did practice that build a lot. He had much higher chance of winning by playing the way he played and trying to find a solution to his problem (stopping the rush).
Son Of Law
Ack1027
Profile Blog Joined January 2004
United States7873 Posts
November 13 2004 04:27 GMT
#185
On November 12 2004 21:19 Tien wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 12 2004 21:15 rei wrote:
uhjoo you can't possible enlight all those who doesn't understand the game like most of us do, they can't see the art in it. they have not yet play the game enough to the level where they can understand why and how the game works. and boxer does not need us to defend him. so after we clearly explicitly stated why and how boxer did it to yellow, and they still refuse to listen, there is nothing more we can do. just let them be, we tried to help them but we failed. they are not worth any more of our time


yeah i guess I should give up on you too. You are the self proclaimed enlightened one after all. Congrats.


You know what I don't understand Tien? You don't even fucking play this game....What right do you have to talk about it. None.
Tien
Profile Joined January 2003
Russian Federation4447 Posts
Last Edited: 2004-11-13 04:47:26
November 13 2004 04:44 GMT
#186
man ack1027, you are the last person I want to start a discussion with over this topic.

Im willing to drop this topic right here and now. We all have our oppinions about this and lets just leave it at that. To each his own.

I dont play this game? I thought I did for the past 4 years. Maybe im wrong, with you being the enlightened one maybe you are right, I never played this game. Or maybe because I quit playing constantly 4 months ago (I got fed up of bunker rushes) means im no longer entitled to say anything about it, even though I still play with friends once in a while who I know wont cheese me every game.

EDIT: If you do want to add anything constructive to this topic than respond to my post here:

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?currentpage=7&topic_id=20115

which is 2/3s of the way down. I dont wanna get into petty flame wars.
We decide our own destiny
Beast_Bg
Profile Joined October 2002
Bulgaria1623 Posts
November 13 2004 04:47 GMT
#187
On November 12 2004 20:33 Kobayashi wrote:
Actually I'll change that, it shows a ton of respect (maybe a little fear even) for his opponent and a total disrespect for the public.

It shows fear.Not respect.
MadFrog : In my opinion, the biggest reason why WC3 is dying is because it is not such a great game as Brood War is.
Beast_Bg
Profile Joined October 2002
Bulgaria1623 Posts
November 13 2004 04:49 GMT
#188
On November 12 2004 21:03 Elvin_vn wrote:
Yellow's logic:

- Boxer trained very hard before the match
- Counter to 8 rax is 9 pool. But Boxer knows this too and he sure planned this as well.
- If I 9 pool, I will enter a battle which Boxer prepared for me.
- I can play micro game with anyone else, but not with Boxer. 9 pool = automatic lose.
- I must do something he never expected.
- I must do something he never trained to play with.
- I must gamble hatch before pool and pull off his rush by drones.

Eventually, Yellow lost. It's not his fault.

May be the zerg is so weak in a micro war at early stage.

9 pool is not a counter for 8 rax.
MadFrog : In my opinion, the biggest reason why WC3 is dying is because it is not such a great game as Brood War is.
Beast_Bg
Profile Joined October 2002
Bulgaria1623 Posts
Last Edited: 2004-11-13 05:02:32
November 13 2004 04:52 GMT
#189
On November 12 2004 20:52 uhjoo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 12 2004 19:36 Beast_Bg wrote:
I agree with you ,that you should respect your opponent and not play risky do-or-die strats.I,myself never ever cheesed in any way vs any opponent for years.Just recently ,though,I thought of a way to use 8 rax in a way that is not so risky and Ive began useing it.Like killing him if he is fast hatch and going rax supply supply gas for very fast bats if hes not and in this way his drone count remains very low ,because he cant make drones in his 2nd hatch as usual and he must make some lings before his hatch completes for defence and Im not even slowed more than a regular 10/12 rax build,because I only skip scvs at 8 9 and 10 supply for like 4-5 secs each time.

Btw, since I didnt watch the games..Did Boxer go Rax Supply Rax or Rax Rax Supply in the 3 games?Ill be quite surprised if he went Rax Rax ,cause actually the marines from the second rax cant really be used for the bunker rush and are slowing your economy down incredibly much.(and this I really consider cheese)
It would be interesting to know if he had prepared a factory build after 1 rax rush on 1 of the maps, like maybe Mercury, but we may never know.


boxer's build as i saw it was 8 rax 9 depot 16 depot or so to fast acad. so basically, a 1 rax fast acad build with a cheese rush thrown in. so, in essence, getting the benefits of a fast rush + the aggressiveness of a 1 rax acad rush should the scv rush not succeed.

So its my build ,with the slight difference of Boxers 1000 times better micro.

Haha, now that I remember I even did it 3 times in a row vs some Gamei zerg to see if it works if predicted.I can show you the replays!! :D
MadFrog : In my opinion, the biggest reason why WC3 is dying is because it is not such a great game as Brood War is.
WickeD
Profile Joined April 2003
Slovakia789 Posts
November 13 2004 04:59 GMT
#190
A bit off topic, but hell .... Is there any possibility to send some cheers to Yellow? I personally would love to post at his fan site or something, or maybe a TL.net comunity letter or soemthing? Can any of the Koreans around here help with this... PM me or post here...
Broodwar: Few days to learn, lifetime to Master
Elvin_vn
Profile Blog Joined March 2004
Vietnam2038 Posts
November 13 2004 05:02 GMT
#191
On November 13 2004 13:59 WickeD wrote:
A bit off topic, but hell .... Is there any possibility to send some cheers to Yellow? I personally would love to post at his fan site or something, or maybe a TL.net comunity letter or soemthing? Can any of the Koreans around here help with this... PM me or post here...


I would mail him
"GOD has abadoned you, but we are with you"

Yellow for president
do not agrue with idiots, they will pull you down to their level and beat you with their experiences
WickeD
Profile Joined April 2003
Slovakia789 Posts
Last Edited: 2004-11-13 05:11:56
November 13 2004 05:08 GMT
#192
Yeah me too, anybody has his e-mail address ? PLZ!
Broodwar: Few days to learn, lifetime to Master
ieatkids5
Profile Blog Joined September 2004
United States4628 Posts
November 13 2004 08:15 GMT
#193
I think this is his email. I got it from http://gosu-replays.nm.ru/ranking.html

fastloves@hanmail.net
worst.player
Profile Joined July 2004
625 Posts
November 13 2004 09:22 GMT
#194
On November 13 2004 12:45 SoL.Origin wrote:
I think people don't understand something:

Boxer practiced 8 rax a lot, yellow practiced fast exp a lot. If yellow had gone 9 pool in the 2nd game, he would have to ignore his entire training and thus be thrown into a improvisation game, which boxer is known to be the best at, not to mention that boxer did practice that build a lot. He had much higher chance of winning by playing the way he played and trying to find a solution to his problem (stopping the rush).
]

This man is golden. He speaks the truth.

Now the question is: what will happen to zvt? Is it only based on maps? Or whats up? There will never be perfectly balanced map. Can YellOw be the
MPXMX
Profile Joined December 2002
Canada4309 Posts
November 13 2004 13:50 GMT
#195
In response to Tien's post

You must be forgetting that boxer said he was planning to have a low econ micro oriented game, not to kill yellow with the first attack. The rush was an opening to his strategy, not an attempt of cheese. It's meant to make the zerg cancel the hatchery or spend a lot of minerals to maintain it, so then both players are poor as a result; which results in a few units, which is just the way boxer likes it. For all you know, boxer intended to have some good back and forth games; it was yellow who lost because boxer's attacks were very good and yellow was very stubborn.
dsh
Profile Joined June 2004
United States879 Posts
November 13 2004 14:26 GMT
#196
yellow's lost my spark another zerg revolution....in terms of strategy i mean
dsh
Profile Joined June 2004
United States879 Posts
November 13 2004 14:27 GMT
#197
On November 13 2004 12:45 SoL.Origin wrote:
I think people don't understand something:

Boxer practiced 8 rax a lot, yellow practiced fast exp a lot. If yellow had gone 9 pool in the 2nd game, he would have to ignore his entire training and thus be thrown into a improvisation game, which boxer is known to be the best at, not to mention that boxer did practice that build a lot. He had much higher chance of winning by playing the way he played and trying to find a solution to his problem (stopping the rush).


another thing is boxer might know yellow too well
Tien
Profile Joined January 2003
Russian Federation4447 Posts
November 13 2004 15:08 GMT
#198
On November 13 2004 22:50 MPXMX wrote:
In response to Tien's post

You must be forgetting that boxer said he was planning to have a low econ micro oriented game, not to kill yellow with the first attack. The rush was an opening to his strategy, not an attempt of cheese. It's meant to make the zerg cancel the hatchery or spend a lot of minerals to maintain it, so then both players are poor as a result; which results in a few units, which is just the way boxer likes it. For all you know, boxer intended to have some good back and forth games; it was yellow who lost because boxer's attacks were very good and yellow was very stubborn.


Its practically impossible to have a back and forth game when your first priority is to rush the hell out of your opponent. His plan A was to win quickly with rush, and plan B was to force a low econ game which tend to be extremely boring. Game 1 for example.

I have only seen 1 game in my entire life where both players played off a low econ and forced a long game. That was a replay of Chojja vs some terran where Chojja 5 or 6 pools the terran which goes standard 12 rax.

I really dont want to have an argument over build orders, but I just wanted to add that its very hard for zerg to play pool first like Testie said if the Terran goes straight up 12 rax. It has always been a gamble for zerg whether or not to go hatch first to even the gameplay, or start off at a disadvantage and hopefully count on the terran to do something other than a standard build, which isnt common.
We decide our own destiny
Geval
Profile Joined September 2004
788 Posts
November 13 2004 15:30 GMT
#199
On November 14 2004 00:08 Tien wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 13 2004 22:50 MPXMX wrote:
In response to Tien's post

You must be forgetting that boxer said he was planning to have a low econ micro oriented game, not to kill yellow with the first attack. The rush was an opening to his strategy, not an attempt of cheese. It's meant to make the zerg cancel the hatchery or spend a lot of minerals to maintain it, so then both players are poor as a result; which results in a few units, which is just the way boxer likes it. For all you know, boxer intended to have some good back and forth games; it was yellow who lost because boxer's attacks were very good and yellow was very stubborn.


Its practically impossible to have a back and forth game when your first priority is to rush the hell out of your opponent. His plan A was to win quickly with rush, and plan B was to force a low econ game which tend to be extremely boring. Game 1 for example.

I have only seen 1 game in my entire life where both players played off a low econ and forced a long game. That was a replay of Chojja vs some terran where Chojja 5 or 6 pools the terran which goes standard 12 rax.

I really dont want to have an argument over build orders, but I just wanted to add that its very hard for zerg to play pool first like Testie said if the Terran goes straight up 12 rax. It has always been a gamble for zerg whether or not to go hatch first to even the gameplay, or start off at a disadvantage and hopefully count on the terran to do something other than a standard build, which isnt common.

If yellow would go 9 pool, he would not be beaten that fast, although he would eventually lose.
The problem is that nobody (especially zergs) can match Boxer in Low econ game
Is not Boxer's fault.
WOW cant believe LT gave me BETA KEY thx thx thx thx thx
wasted
Profile Joined October 2002
Germany1789 Posts
November 13 2004 15:51 GMT
#200
haha, yeah, one of our koreans here should send yellow a "get well!"-card in the name of the tl.net community
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