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On November 12 2004 21:05 rei wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2004 20:52 uhjoo wrote:
boxer's build as i saw it was 8 rax 9 depot 16 depot or so to fast acad. so basically, a 1 rax fast acad build with a cheese rush thrown in. so, in essence, getting the benefits of a fast rush + the aggressiveness of a 1 rax acad rush should the scv rush not succeed.
that's where i was getting at, if yellow cancle his hatch and make one inside his main, or not expanding at all, boxer would run up yellow's cliff with his fast acad rush with bats medics marines. yellow must then sukens up and make more lings, you all know how sick boxer's micro is when he got a group of shits inside a zerg base, and yes it will still play right into boxer's game as he will force yellow to delay tec and dance with boxer using lings
This is really bad for zerg. Zergling are too weak to micro. The only strat I could think of to beat boxer is 2 sunken with good placement at early stage then go hydra/zergling. May be with hydra support you can win the micro war which pure lings will lose to. Then may be go lurker and expo.
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Korea (South)1740 Posts
On November 12 2004 19:58 exalted wrote:
This is all of course a little disappointing really, I'm a bigger fan of Yellow despite being a T player and I just wonder how he feels after the games -.-
i, too, am a bigger fan of yellow and i'm disappointed that he lost. but i am guessing that he congratulated boxer, is not *bitter* about the strategy that boxer used (though probably bitter about losing), and is thinking of what the best counter to this 8 rax build is for the future. why? because yellow is a pro, and he's all class.
it would really be a basis for "losing respect" if a progamer like yellow publically started complaining via interviews or such that some strat or another was "cheesy" and that he would've won if the games were "straight up."
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uhjoo you can't possible enlight all those who doesn't understand the game like most of us do, they can't see the art in it. they have not yet play the game enough to the level where they can understand why and how the game works. and boxer does not need us to defend him. so after we clearly explicitly stated why and how boxer did it to yellow, and they still refuse to listen, there is nothing more we can do. just let them be, we tried to help them but we failed. they are not worth any more of our time
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Russian Federation4447 Posts
On November 12 2004 21:15 rei wrote:
uhjoo you can't possible enlight all those who doesn't understand the game like most of us do, they can't see the art in it. they have not yet play the game enough to the level where they can understand why and how the game works. and boxer does not need us to defend him. so after we clearly explicitly stated why and how boxer did it to yellow, and they still refuse to listen, there is nothing more we can do. just let them be, we tried to help them but we failed. they are not worth any more of our time
yeah i guess I should give up on you too. You are the self proclaimed enlightened one after all. Congrats.
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On November 12 2004 21:15 rei wrote:
uhjoo you can't possible enlight all those who doesn't understand the game like most of us do, they can't see the art in it. they have not yet play the game enough to the level where they can understand why and how the game works. and boxer does not need us to defend him. so after we clearly explicitly stated why and how boxer did it to yellow, and they still refuse to listen, there is nothing more we can do. just let them be, we tried to help them but we failed. they are not worth any more of our time
it's easy to understand why hasuwar insulted u so much
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ohh no i'm sorry, my fault i should not even post it, i should just pm to uhjoo. can any admin delete that post? cause it's ganna start a new fame war and this time it's right at me.
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Hey, part of the appeal of SC is that it's unpredictable. Boxer's appeal is not much different. Just when you thought he was going to play straight and give us 20+ minute displays of crazy micro and innovative strats he deploys a "cheese" rush not once, twice, but three times to turn what was an expected match of the year into a 15 minute embarrassment for Yellow.
Weeks before the match was people to take place, polls were taken, opinions were asked, and everyone had the same expectations for a 5 game close series. It didnt' turn out that way. Now people are riled because they didn't get what they want. Who's to blame for their disappointment? Yellow, who lost to the same strategy 3 times in a row? Boxer, who would have risked tens of thousands of dollars if his priority was to entertain rather than to win? Or, is it the fans themselves? Truth is, Boxer didn't let us down, we let ourselves down. Boxer is a professional gamer, this is his livelyhood. He doesn't get money proportionate to the entertainment he bestows on T.V. and live-stream viewers. He gets it from winning. That's all there is to it.
I say Boxer has entertained as much as he could throughout his storied career as a Pro-gamer, and to say that he's selfish only reflections the selfishness that is inherent in us.
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Some people make it look like Boxer's build is unbeatable because he was going for rush+fast acad blablabla... If there was a Terran build that puts you ahead whatever the map and whatever Zerg does, I guess it would already been widely known and no pro zerg would ever win a game against Terran.
By the way, Boxer is not the only one who used the same build 3 times in a row in this match.
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On November 12 2004 20:45 Kobayashi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2004 20:36 1024MB wrote:On November 12 2004 20:31 Slaughter)BiO wrote:
I never said Boxer should lay down and let yellow walk over him now did I? Yes I know perfectly well who boxer is but all you boxer boys are just putting him Above the game :[ "boxer cannot do anything wrong or bad" is your mentality and you dive right in to defend him. And yes using that strat 3x in a row shows 0 respect for the player he played against. Why? Because in doing this he knows the Humiliation level will be higher. He didnt have to win in this way now did he? No plain and simple he was out to win in the way that would humiliate yellow the most. A winning move in Starcraft is not, and will never be, "wrong or bad." End of my arguement. what is wrong (in my opinion) is that Boxer planed from the start to decide this series in the very first minutes of every game, that imho is a terrible line of thought for someone so influent in this game and will never help bw improve and move forward
It's clear that many of them plan this. But it hardly ever happens because their initial attack is usually countered.
And to Tien, as I also posted in the other thread:
So basically you like dummied up, rigged games for your entertainment? In that case, let me refer you to a little thing called the WWE.
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All I know is when I heard the results of the game, I laughed for minutes straight. Then I did a little dance. Say what you will about Boxer but none of you saw that crap coming three times in a row. To quote Manifesto (at least I think it was Mani), Yellow simply "fell down the steepest stairs in Seoul."
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On November 12 2004 21:15 rei wrote:
uhjoo you can't possible enlight all those who doesn't understand the game like most of us do, they can't see the art in it. they have not yet play the game enough to the level where they can understand why and how the game works. and boxer does not need us to defend him. so after we clearly explicitly stated why and how boxer did it to yellow, and they still refuse to listen, there is nothing more we can do. just let them be, we tried to help them but we failed. they are not worth any more of our time
Even though I agree with what you said before, you look like a pathetic condescending dickhead.
By the way you don't need an admin to delete your own posts.
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Russian Federation4447 Posts
The WWE entertains me for other reasons, the stupidity of it.
And no, nothing in my post ever mentions me liking rigged up games. I like games where players have a mutual concensus not to cheese into oblivion. I like it when they tell themselves "Lets make this a respectful and fun series".
When will the fans get what they deserve?
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On November 12 2004 21:52 Tien wrote:
The WWE entertains me for other reasons, the stupidity of it.
And no, nothing in my post ever mentions me liking rigged up games. I like games where players have a mutual concensus not to cheese into oblivion. I like it when they tell themselves "Lets make this a respectful and fun series".
When will the fans get what they deserve?
Actually it's fans being fans of a player. They don't "Deserve" anything. If they are upset, they can stop being fans. I for one, am a fan of BoxeR as well as MANY other progamers. I don't care what they do in the game, I'll always be a fan. It's because of their style I guess.
Now, if they were to go and cuss at another player or something, that'd be different.
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Kyrgyz Republic1462 Posts
Somehow you all remind me of the Musketeer Athos, to whom his friend d'Artagnan said "if you would some day become a military leader and decided to attack your enemy, you would not only do it in clear daylight, but also send to him your exact battle plan and strategy beforehand, so that no one could later acuse you of baseness and deceit". And also he said "what in times of peace would definetly be considered foul and low acting, is merely a war trick in times of warfare". (please excuse me for my poor citing from memory).
By what judgement is "cheese" low and how you put it "gay" strategy? By what logic one should never do it? By what right some of you acuse Boxer of showing disrespect and lack of entertainment only for using a smart and daring strategy?
Excuse me, but such statements only show your own disrespect and lack of taste. Boxer did what he does best, he forced his enemy to play his game, and totally decimated him in what some already call "the most one-sided and fast best-of-five match ever".
Or maybe someone will be so kind as to enlighten me and give me any single logical reason why Boxer should not do what he did?
Thank you.
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On November 12 2004 21:38 1024MB wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2004 20:45 Kobayashi wrote:On November 12 2004 20:36 1024MB wrote:On November 12 2004 20:31 Slaughter)BiO wrote:
I never said Boxer should lay down and let yellow walk over him now did I? Yes I know perfectly well who boxer is but all you boxer boys are just putting him Above the game :[ "boxer cannot do anything wrong or bad" is your mentality and you dive right in to defend him. And yes using that strat 3x in a row shows 0 respect for the player he played against. Why? Because in doing this he knows the Humiliation level will be higher. He didnt have to win in this way now did he? No plain and simple he was out to win in the way that would humiliate yellow the most. A winning move in Starcraft is not, and will never be, "wrong or bad." End of my arguement. what is wrong (in my opinion) is that Boxer planed from the start to decide this series in the very first minutes of every game, that imho is a terrible line of thought for someone so influent in this game and will never help bw improve and move forward It's clear that many of them plan this. But it hardly ever happens because their initial attack is usually countered. And to Tien, as I also posted in the other thread: Show nested quote +So basically you like dummied up, rigged games for your entertainment? In that case, let me refer you to a little thing called the WWE.
No,u know as well as I do (or any bw player, yellow included) that if yellow beat that inicial attack it would be gg from boxer, that simple. this doesn't happen with the first attack derived from most builds like u're saying.
PS: the comment was not intended to me but after reading what tien said I have no clue how u came up with that conclusion.
PPS: Really, I can understand Boxer fans are happy to see him back at a final but there's no need to try to transform everything he does in to a genius incredible move...he cheesed,that's all there is to it, he cheesed with great micro and timing, but he cheesed. Some of us find it ethically wrong, some don't care. My personal opinion (as I stated above) is that if players like Boxer had decided to play their important games like this bw wouldn't have evolved and become the game we all love right now.
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United States12240 Posts
On November 12 2004 21:52 Tien wrote:
The WWE entertains me for other reasons, the stupidity of it.
And no, nothing in my post ever mentions me liking rigged up games. I like games where players have a mutual concensus not to cheese into oblivion. I like it when they tell themselves "Lets make this a respectful and fun series".
When will the fans get what they deserve?
What they deserve? They deserve nothing, and they are owed nothing. Interest is what you make of it. There is no reason to have a selfish attitude. Just because you personally would have rather seen a 30-minute slugfest doesn't diminish the coolness of these games in the eyes of others. The way Boxer wins is entirely up to him, and any win against Yellow shows a lot of skill.
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On November 12 2004 22:01 Kobayashi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2004 21:38 1024MB wrote:On November 12 2004 20:45 Kobayashi wrote:On November 12 2004 20:36 1024MB wrote:On November 12 2004 20:31 Slaughter)BiO wrote:
I never said Boxer should lay down and let yellow walk over him now did I? Yes I know perfectly well who boxer is but all you boxer boys are just putting him Above the game :[ "boxer cannot do anything wrong or bad" is your mentality and you dive right in to defend him. And yes using that strat 3x in a row shows 0 respect for the player he played against. Why? Because in doing this he knows the Humiliation level will be higher. He didnt have to win in this way now did he? No plain and simple he was out to win in the way that would humiliate yellow the most. A winning move in Starcraft is not, and will never be, "wrong or bad." End of my arguement. what is wrong (in my opinion) is that Boxer planed from the start to decide this series in the very first minutes of every game, that imho is a terrible line of thought for someone so influent in this game and will never help bw improve and move forward It's clear that many of them plan this. But it hardly ever happens because their initial attack is usually countered. And to Tien, as I also posted in the other thread: So basically you like dummied up, rigged games for your entertainment? In that case, let me refer you to a little thing called the WWE. No,u know as well as I do (or any bw player, yellow included) that if yellow beat that inicial attack it would be gg from boxer, that simple. this doesn't happen with the first attack derived from most builds like u're saying. PS: the comment was not intended to me but after reading what tien said I have no clue how u came up with that conclusion. PPS: Really, I can understand Boxer fans are happy to see him back at a final but there's no need to try to transform everything he does in to a genius incredible move...he cheesed,that's all there is to it, he cheesed with great micro and timing, but he cheesed. Some of us find it ethically wrong, some don't care. My personal opinion (as I stated above) is that if players like Boxer had decided to play their important games like this bw wouldn't have evolved and become the game we all love right now.
read the interview boy. Boxer wanted a micro game. If Yellow went 9 pool Boxer would also be happy.
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On November 12 2004 22:17 Geval wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2004 22:01 Kobayashi wrote:On November 12 2004 21:38 1024MB wrote:On November 12 2004 20:45 Kobayashi wrote:On November 12 2004 20:36 1024MB wrote:On November 12 2004 20:31 Slaughter)BiO wrote:
I never said Boxer should lay down and let yellow walk over him now did I? Yes I know perfectly well who boxer is but all you boxer boys are just putting him Above the game :[ "boxer cannot do anything wrong or bad" is your mentality and you dive right in to defend him. And yes using that strat 3x in a row shows 0 respect for the player he played against. Why? Because in doing this he knows the Humiliation level will be higher. He didnt have to win in this way now did he? No plain and simple he was out to win in the way that would humiliate yellow the most. A winning move in Starcraft is not, and will never be, "wrong or bad." End of my arguement. what is wrong (in my opinion) is that Boxer planed from the start to decide this series in the very first minutes of every game, that imho is a terrible line of thought for someone so influent in this game and will never help bw improve and move forward It's clear that many of them plan this. But it hardly ever happens because their initial attack is usually countered. And to Tien, as I also posted in the other thread: So basically you like dummied up, rigged games for your entertainment? In that case, let me refer you to a little thing called the WWE. No,u know as well as I do (or any bw player, yellow included) that if yellow beat that inicial attack it would be gg from boxer, that simple. this doesn't happen with the first attack derived from most builds like u're saying. PS: the comment was not intended to me but after reading what tien said I have no clue how u came up with that conclusion. PPS: Really, I can understand Boxer fans are happy to see him back at a final but there's no need to try to transform everything he does in to a genius incredible move...he cheesed,that's all there is to it, he cheesed with great micro and timing, but he cheesed. Some of us find it ethically wrong, some don't care. My personal opinion (as I stated above) is that if players like Boxer had decided to play their important games like this bw wouldn't have evolved and become the game we all love right now. read the interview boy. Boxer wanted a micro game. If Yellow went 9 pool Boxer would also be happy.
I didn't say "if he countered it well" I said "if he beat it". And that's not the point, the point is: planning the semis based on that strat brings nothing positive into the bw, if programers did that for the past 4 or 5 years bw would not be what it is now.
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Who cares? Maybe if you woudl get off your ass and make creative strats then you could get the ball moving as well, it's like you completely rely on them to make the game progress, why don't you instead of bitching about how boxer shows a start that is "cheesY" and think about an appropriate counter like what Yellow is doing right now? Jesus christ.
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uhjoo, you crack me up 
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EPT
