tvt strats

LonGGone

121 Posts

October 28 2004 23:47 GMT

any great tvt starts? me i usually rush and i go fact/port/siege tank/wraith with the scv scoutin i go engie bay and push with turrets/tank/wraith. It works sometimes, escpeically if the terran goes quick exp or wraith.. but when it fails i dont really kno wat to do from there. I just go tanks and gols.. and like.. hold him in n expo. Doesnt sound good to me becuz i still lose dat way

prolly wasting time with this post, ne ways..

rednob

Korea (South)210 Posts

October 29 2004 01:22 GMT

Orome

Switzerland11984 Posts

October 29 2004 04:22 GMT

Rednob, I really appreciate that you contribute and actually try to help people, but plz stop with the bold writing. It starts getting annoying

But keep up the good work!

@ LonGGone:

The great thing about Star Craft is that you can't just do one BO and win all the time...

This is different, if you're playing pubbies plz just tell us your skill level if you want advice. Or provide a rep, which would be even better.

You'll never get better at BW, if you don't understand your BOs. Why is your fact port good? What is not good about it?

I'd sum up the three main things you can do in BW as

1. expanding
2. teching
3.massing

Each has his own advantage and its own disadvantages.

For example expanding gets you a better economy -> more unit production later in game. This is its great advantage.

Its disadvantages are a) you only have basic units, no tech and b) while you're expanding, you have less units than if you'd be massing.

Now if we take a 1 rax fact BO as normal in every TvT, we can start deciding what is which from there.

You're BO is that you build a port after your fac -> this is obviously teching, as you get better units, but you don't have many of them and you don't have good economy.

What you gain by doing it is obviously better mobility (droship), better counter to Dropships (Wraith).

Then you go into massing (your rush), you push Wraiths and Tanks hard.

What you have to realize now, is why the mixture of Wraiths/Tanks/Turrets is good. Well obviously because Wraiths can take some sieged tanks out (Air is the only way you can approach sieged tanks, without losing more than your opponent), while you slowly advance with Tanks, who take down everything on ground and Turrets, giving your tanks defense from drops.

What are weaknesses of this BO? Well,

Edit: Damn, deleted a quarter of my post T_T

But you should've figured by now, that I'm trying to make you think...

HurtnTime

United States296 Posts

October 29 2004 04:33 GMT

There are several different build orders and the builds themselves aren't as important. You can watch replays and experiment to find them all out and how to react properly. I don't want to cover build order at all.

TvT is about map control and PATIENCE. I know many of you think TvTs are drawn out (and they can be) but for me they usually dont last any longer than vs zerg or toss.

There are several key areas on the map that you have to try to control. Try acquiring these one at a time depending on how your opponent is playing.

Key areas (in priority order):

1. Your main base!
2. Enemy choke
3. Your choke
4. Enemy ledge
5. Your ledge

1. Your Main Base

I list your main as #1 because too often terran players are over extended or plainly too agressive and weak at home. I often see expansions being better defended than the main base. This is very bad and an experienced player will scan multiple spots for a landing spot. Having an expansion or two wont matter if you lose all your factories and supply depots!

Make sure you always have troops at home. Don't leave your base undefended unless you are certain you cannot be dropped.

2. Enemy choke

The idea here is to restrict your enemy's movements. He will be forced to try and break your containment which is almost never cost effective or to use drop ships. If you have forced your enemy to move about the map using drop ships then you should be able to track his every attempt to attack. You do this of course with turrets and frequent scans. Build turrets EVERYWHERE you think a drop ship might want to go.

The best way to protect an area is with a few tanks and a few turrets. Use goliaths for offense along with tanks and for defense tanks plus turrets. Make sure your tanks are always separated for maximum efficiency. Reinforce positions as needed.

3. Your choke

For the same reason you want to control the enemy choke, he will want to control yours. You have to try and deny him setting up a containment but dont worry too much if he initially sets one up that would be too costly to break at the time.

If you are contained, you HAVE to use drop ships to return the favor. Control his choke immediately! This will keep him from reinforcing his position at your choke unless he uses drop ships. You should then be able to break the containment with a larger force.

A few tricks on breaking containment:

a. Use a few SCVs to get slaughtered by tanks while you get close enough with your army to siege the position.

b. Use an ebay or barracks to float into turret range and draw fire while you use drop ships to land on top of tanks.

4. Enemy ledge
5. Your ledge

Depending on the specific game these could be important. I would say early in the game they are relatively important because it is an easy way to slow a player down. If you are controlling the enemy choke and he is not controlling yours then it is very easy to expand anywhere on the map with just a few tanks and scvs to make turrets while the command center is building. That is why the ledges are so low on my priority list.

I normally dont bother too much with taking the enemy's ledge. It is low on priority. I much rather take his main if I can. His ledge is more of an opportunity scenario. If I see it open I take it.

Misc:
Most of the time you can win the game with some good drops and initial choke(s) control. When it is clear that the enemy base / expansion are too heavily defended then you just continue with denying the enemy expansions while continuing to build your map control and expansions. I find it easiest to win TvT's where he is turtled in with BCs + tank support.

Don't forget your main task at hand is to control as much of the map as possible. Soon his main and natural expansion will dry up and is forced to sacrifice large numbers of troops simply to break containment, much less to actually hurt you.

Early in game dont bother with a 1 or 2 tank drop! SCVs alone can kill 2 tanks. If you are going to drop, use goliaths or vultures.

Vultures are awesome btw. Use them as much as you can. Spider mines can delay enemy expansions and if you get them into their base can kill SCVs very fast. Also, placing mines around factories is good so anything that comes out is killed immediately.

Always produce tanks / gols at home and keep a control group of dropships. Use drop ships to attack and to defend positions.

In the end the player with the extra gas mine should win the game.

Ok, that's all that comes to mind for now. Hope this helps.

c0uch_p0tat0

United States13 Posts

October 29 2004 12:35 GMT

Hmm.. I always wanted to know this and i hope someone can solve my riddle. How does the progamers drop their units so efficiently? Like 3 units at a time... but for me, i used unload all.. and they are often stuck in the dropship and never make it down alive on ground.. iS there a better way and faster way for unloading units on dropships? Plz help

Puzzled

baal

10708 Posts

October 29 2004 12:42 GMT

4 scv rush

HurtnTime

United States296 Posts

October 29 2004 12:54 GMT

As the drop ship is moving and selected you can click the portrait of the units inside the drop ship and it will drop.

j-man

United States153 Posts

October 29 2004 17:55 GMT

awesome post, hurt.

loztdignity

Sweden176 Posts

October 30 2004 01:46 GMT

Nice post Hurt. I agree with what you say. Very informative.
I really dont understand why people dont like the TvT matchup. Well I used to understand, but now when I have gotten better and gained confidence and lost my fear of loosing I think its very fun and entertaining. You have to play boldly and dont be afraid to attack sieged tanks.

c0uch_p0tat0

United States13 Posts

October 30 2004 02:11 GMT

#10

thxs hurt, haha, i always had the misconception that you had to hold on to shift and click on the potrait to drop..... lol.... no wonder

yeehaw

San Marino888 Posts

October 30 2004 11:32 GMT

#11

On October 30 2004 10:46 loztdignity wrote:
Nice post Hurt. I agree with what you say. Very informative.
I really dont understand why people dont like the TvT matchup. Well I used to understand, but now when I have gotten better and gained confidence and lost my fear of loosing I think its very fun and entertaining. You have to play boldly and dont be afraid to attack sieged tanks.

I used to hate it too, bcoz I can play 5 games in the time it took me to finish a TvT. And of course the fact of losing lots of units to tanks. I just cant stand that

AMD_STorM

China50 Posts

October 30 2004 12:01 GMT

#12

iloveoov vs xellos, exciting game

froZen_wYnd

Canada270 Posts

October 30 2004 14:46 GMT

#13

Tvt is hard for some ppl. but easy for some, u just have to get the feel of it =P

bio.dante

Czech Republic290 Posts

October 30 2004 17:55 GMT

#14

In TvT you must trust yourself, about BO's on maps without cliff(arizona,pellenor) vultures are only choice at beginnings, then i prefer wraith harass and GG by oponnent

, In maps with cliff (LT(that sux), dahlia....) Gol+tank+vultures macro and micro with it and you win. Islands cloacked wrights for hunting oponnent's dropships and drops to destroy him

eccentric

Mozambique18 Posts

October 31 2004 04:16 GMT

#15

tvt is easy. just get supply>rax. build some marines to kill his floating rax. recon is key in tvt so get academy>scan quick. if your opponent gets wraiths, build armory>goliaths. if he gets firebats, build rines. if he build rines, build tanks. if he build tanks, build wraiths.

bio.dante

Czech Republic290 Posts

October 31 2004 04:51 GMT

#16

On October 31 2004 13:16 eccentric wrote:
tvt is easy. just get supply>rax. build some marines to kill his floating rax. recon is key in tvt so get academy>scan quick. if your opponent gets wraiths, build armory>goliaths. if he gets firebats, build rines. if he build rines, build tanks. if he build tanks, build wraiths.

I hope you are not meaning this seriously... :/

eccentric

Mozambique18 Posts

October 31 2004 04:54 GMT

#17

my main race is not terran, but that is the general rule of thumb for terran. im sure other terran players willl agree w/ me

j-man

United States153 Posts

October 31 2004 05:54 GMT

#18

scouting is high priority in all matchups. Most terrans wont go rine or bat in any sufficent numbers unless they are trying a cheeze-ish proxy rax type of strategy because vultures and metal in general just rapes them. Most decent TvT games that i've played tend to go as a combination of drops/containment.

indecision

Germany818 Posts

November 07 2004 20:41 GMT

#19

I'd counter firebats with Vultures, but they won't be built in TvT anyways.
The long post about controlling the map in TvT is awesome, I'm definitely gonna consider it in my next TvT.

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