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China has warned the Nobel Peace Prize committee not to award the prize to well-known dissident Liu Xiaobo.
The Chinese foreign ministry said giving him the prize would be against Nobel principles.
Mr Liu is serving a long prison sentence for calling for democracy and human rights in China.
A foreign ministry spokeswoman told reporters in Beijing that Liu Xiaobo was serving a jail term because he had violated Chinese law.
Awarding him the Nobel Peace Prize would send the wrong message to the world, the spokeswoman said.
It would run contrary to the aims of its founder to promote peace between peoples, and to promote international friendship and disarmament, she added.
Mr Liu is serving an 11-year prison sentence for drafting Charter 08, which called for multiparty democracy and respect for human rights in China.
The ruling Communist Party perceived this to be a threat against it.
More than 100 Chinese scholars, lawyers and campaigners have urged the Nobel Peace Prize committee to honour him this year.
The former Czech president, Vaclav Havel, has also voiced his support for the campaign.
Trade talks
The head of the Norwegian Nobel Institute, Geir Lundestad, said on Monday that a senior Chinese official had warned him that awarding the peace prize to Liu Xiaobo would affect relations between Oslo and Beijing.
China and Norway are now engaged in talks over a bilateral trade deal, which some say could serve as a blueprint for an agreement between China and the European Union.
Energy-rich Norway is also keen to export its offshore exploration know-how to China.
The Norwegian oil firm Statoil said last month that it was hoping to look for shale gas in China.
China was furious when the exiled Tibetan spiritual leader, the Dalai Lama, won the Nobel Peace Prize in 1989, the year of the Tiananmen Square crackdown by Chinese authorities on protesters.
The government tried to exert pressure on the committee last year when another dissident, Hu Jia, was nominated for the prize.
The committee will announce this year's winner in 10 days.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-11429869
Real classy china, real classy...
Actually, they seem more to be threatening Norway, but... The image of bullying the Nobel committee (chosen by the Norwegian Parliament), especially for the Nobel Peace Prize, is too hilarious not to impart. Seems to me they're putting too much stock on anyone caring about who wins.
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so this guy goes to prison for trying to make life better in china.
I wonder if this guys name would of came up as a possible candidate had he not been sentenced to prison.
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On September 29 2010 06:52 Coagulation wrote:
so this guy goes to prison for trying to make life better in china.
You don't try to re-educate fellow chinamen or you will end up in either a chinese execution bus or chinese gulag.
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On September 29 2010 06:50 kaisen wrote:
Seems to me they're putting too much stock on anyone caring about who wins.
You know who'd care about Liu Xiaobo winning? The people of China. Oh, I wonder why, OP. I wonder why.
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I can honestly say that I don't remember the last time I cared about someone winning a Nobel prize... ever... If anything, China is just calling way more attention to this by voicing out against it than it would've gotten otherwise.
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No one cared about Nobel prize since that war criminal Henry Kissinger won the prize in 72.
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This is funny because most of my friends and family in China agree with the Chinese government on this issue. And they're all completely educated and very familiar with the west, most of them have traveled or studied in the states. And for them, there reasoning is that they view that the act exists in itself, (self centered) will have little impact on ministry politics, but destabilize already unstable parts of China while making no effect on stable regions/social circles (like the ones they themselves are part of)
I completely disagree of course. But its an interesting perspective. People in the west often have this view that everyone in China is oppressed and brainwashed by the government, but most of the upper middle class are very well educated and secular, but prefer the economic and social stability of the status quo over the economic and social upheavals of a democratic uprising.
And since I've lived in the states for over five years now I feel kind of self centered when I advocate Chinese democracy. Because I'm not the one whos going to be potentially shot or killed or disenfranchised or dislocated in the democratic uprising.
I just keep my political viewpoints/hostilities more close to home nowadays. I still support those fighting for democracy in China, but it just seems a bit hypocritical now to do the same now that I'm in the safety of the arguably equally oppressive States, completely unnaffected by the consequences a political upheaval might have on citizens of China, particularly the extreme lower class and the middle class. (Only of course, we're more oppressive towards 3rd world countries then our own citizens, so people don't care as much)
I can honestly say that I don't remember the last time I cared about someone winning a Nobel prize... ever... If anything, China is just calling way more attention to this by voicing out against it than it would've gotten otherwise.
People in Western nations are usually dissensitized towards this kind of thing, especially those viewing Starcraft 2 Esports forums :p. But it carries a lot more politic heft towards the general public, especially those in China, and for those whom do actively advocate/fight for Chinese democracy.
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On September 29 2010 06:56 LegendaryZ wrote:
I can honestly say that I don't remember the last time I cared about someone winning a Nobel prize... ever... If anything, China is just calling way more attention to this by voicing out against it than it would've gotten otherwise.
That's generally the way these things work.
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The nobel peace prize lost all its credibility when it was awarded to a man who's currently president of a nation fighting two wars (of aggression).
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On September 29 2010 07:00 Half wrote:
This is funny because most of my friends and family in China agree with the Chinese government on this issue. And they're all completely educated and very familiar with the west, most of them have traveled or studied in the states. And for them, there reasoning is that they view that the act exists in itself, (self centered) will have little impact on ministry politics, but destabilize already unstable parts of China while making no effect on stable regions/social circles (like the ones they themselves are part of)
I completely disagree of course. But its an interesting perspective. People in the west often have this view that everyone in China is oppressed and brainwashed by the government, but most of the upper middle class are very well educated and secular, but prefer the economic and social stability of the status quo over the economic and social upheavals of a democratic uprising.
And since I've lived in the states for over five years now I feel kind of self centered when I advocate Chinese democracy. Because I'm not the one whos going to be potentially shot or killed or disenfranchised or dislocated in the democratic uprising.
I just keep my political viewpoints/hostilities more close to home nowadays.
I'm not sure anyone is advocating an armed rebellion or full scale war. Most of the international hope for progress in China is invested in the gradual opening of the society and eventually the government. At least, closer to the that idea than a "democratic uprising". Very few people with an actual grasp on the situation are holding their breaths until the Chinese poor rise up.
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I can honestly say that I don't remember the last time I cared about someone winning a Nobel prize... ever... If anything, China is just calling way more attention to this by voicing out against it than it would've gotten otherwise.
now china can censor everything that their people will hear. so Mao takes the nobel prize this year.
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What hifriend said. This award doesnt mean anything its just for shows.
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On September 29 2010 07:03 hifriend wrote:
The nobel peace prize lost all its credibility when it was awarded to a man who's currently president of a nation fighting two wars (of aggression).
And gave it to him before he actually did anything.
I've already lost a lot of respect for the nobel peace prize, giving it to this guy, despite China's threats, would give it some respect though.
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On September 29 2010 07:06 choboPEon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2010 07:00 Half wrote:
This is funny because most of my friends and family in China agree with the Chinese government on this issue. And they're all completely educated and very familiar with the west, most of them have traveled or studied in the states. And for them, there reasoning is that they view that the act exists in itself, (self centered) will have little impact on ministry politics, but destabilize already unstable parts of China while making no effect on stable regions/social circles (like the ones they themselves are part of)
I completely disagree of course. But its an interesting perspective. People in the west often have this view that everyone in China is oppressed and brainwashed by the government, but most of the upper middle class are very well educated and secular, but prefer the economic and social stability of the status quo over the economic and social upheavals of a democratic uprising.
And since I've lived in the states for over five years now I feel kind of self centered when I advocate Chinese democracy. Because I'm not the one whos going to be potentially shot or killed or disenfranchised or dislocated in the democratic uprising.
I just keep my political viewpoints/hostilities more close to home nowadays. I'm not sure anyone is advocating an armed rebellion or full scale war. Most of the international hope for progress in China is invested in the gradual opening of the society and eventually the government. At least, closer to the latter than a "democratic uprising". Very few people with an actual grasp on the situation are holding their breaths until the Chinese poor rise up.
Even small changes can huge repercussions. I'm not arguing for a police state, but its important to note that China is extraordinarily stable for its size and cultural stratification.
For instance, the Urumqi Riots last year (I was actually in the Xinjiang province when it happened on a vacation with relatives and friends) was primarily blamed on, ironically, the lack of government response. The police refrained from offensive actions for an hour after being mobilized and fully deployed. This was partly due to the fact that the Prime Minister was in Italy (?, or something western European country). During that hour is where the vast majority of the 800 ish killed died. (9:30 to 10:30 am)
Then, the subsequent round up of violent (and nonviolent  ) perpetrators was a disaster. A lack of unified government response caused perpetrators to escape far enough that the vast majority of them remain uncaught. A wave of violence also spiked, and actually forced us to leave as soon as we were able, caused by fleeing rioters.
My point is that China isn't as stable as it seems. There is no justification for atrocities such as the Tienanmen Square Massacres, but at the same time, China is still unstable and heavily developing in some areas, and a democratic reform will cause large economic damage, and a notable loss in human life.
I'd be fully prepared to bear that for my own country of residence. I value freedom very highly, its probably one of my core convictions. But asking of the same on another country, one where I have a lot of friends and family, who really don't want the same, from the view of what is now an "outsider" seems a tad bit hypocritical.
On that note, that isn't to say I would want Oslo to capitulate to the demands of the Chinese government. That would be horrible. Was just wanting to expand some perspectives. And of course, I also know many friends and family who hate the communist party to death, some out of ideology, some out of very substantial reasons.
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Charter 08 is a petition for Democratic Elections. Liu Xiaobo is inciting revolution.
"...shall have done the most or the best work for fraternity between nations, for the abolition or reduction of standing armies and for the holding and promotion of peace congresses."
“A revolution is not a dinner party, or writing an essay, or painting a picture, or doing embroidery; it cannot be so refined, so leisurely and gentle, so temperate, kind, courteous, restrained and magnanimous. A revolution is an insurrection, an act of violence by which one class overthrows another.”
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Sounds like the Nobel Peace Price is more of a political tool nowadays.
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On September 29 2010 07:03 hifriend wrote:
The nobel peace prize lost all its credibility when it was awarded to a man who's currently president of a nation fighting two wars (of aggression).
That is the worst argument for Obama not deserving the Nobel Peace Prize that I've ever heard. Not only did he take office in the midst of these wars, he also led the withdrawal from these wars.
On-topic: yeah, China... ... tsk tsk. Warning the Nobel committee to not award the Nobel Peace Prize to a political prisoner is only going to make them look worse to the rest of the world, what were they thinking?
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Ok i know i'm gonna get flammed but I guess someone has to play the devil's advocate part.
China is not ready for democracy or freedom of speech.
It's out of the box, now feel free not to read and just flame. If you want insight for someone who actually worked there (and taiwan) as government liaison for a western country and then as lawyer, who is living in the culture for like 10 years, who is regularly attending both side (gov and dissidents) allocutions and who is getting every piece of info he can on socio economic chinese info he can, please read.
First a simple example:
The Xingjiang riots. What happened then? This is off the record speech from both officials and and dissidents.
A sms rumor started in guanzhou that xinjiang minority migrant workers raped and killed a girl. Pure rumor. Spread real fast. Result: 2 dead xinjiang dude.
The info spreads to Xinjiang. Retaliation by Xinjiangren on Han. Gov shuts down the province and retaliate (that's the part that was known in the media).
(remind that China is a clearly racist place. Not so much the institutions but the mentality of the average joe)
Now does that sounds like a educated rational country where you can go full on democracy?
If you're not short sighted, like most dissidents, you dont ask for democracy tomorrow.
1/ Create a middle class. Middle class is the key to democratic country and the evolution to this.
For china this means a lot of evolutions:
- Raising the workers wages. (we're close to Lewis' point in china, cf recent strikes)
- Changing the status of migrant workers, who are now denied basic access to public services.
- Mass education: current system is hugely flawed and bars social promotion by studies
2/ Create conditions to stop inequalities:
- real access and process of citizen complaints against government.
- health care (huge factor of financial anxiety for middle class actually)
- real property law with fair court access and no expropriations.
- stop corruption, specially in local authorities level.
Sounds far fetch but the main point of having this stance is that chinese ppl actually agree with my 1 and 2. Even old time party members i talked to.
Once those are installed, freedom of speech can come and then democracy. They'll come by popular demand.
People in the western world are often talking out of their ash on china. This hurts the cause more than it helps it. Soft power is the way with chinese culture. This is the meaning of me taking the timeto post and the potential flame.
Last things you have to know, the debate I exposed is also running within the central gov. Some officials are burning their carreers for it. Don't make the whole thing a undicerned evil. If anything, local authorities are the one to blame for a lot of crappy situations.
Cautionary points:
- i do not support a lot of chinese stances (beyond the ones i already mentionned) like unfair imprisonnement, death penalty and so on. Don't make me full on evil just for what i stated before.
- no i do not spit on China. I lived there, I wanna go back more than anything. I was called "nai huangbao" several times (it's the white to chinese equivalent of "Bounty")
- This post isn't pro or against M. Liu's potential prize. Charter 08 is one of (if not the) main movement and will play a big part in future china's history. I regularly met some of the co signers of the charter in HK or Europe, this is a damn legit peaceful movement. They might be asking to much too soon tho.
- Look for "barefoot lawyers". This is the main "dissident" movement i fully support, even actively when i was there and could do it. They act efficiently and have a real chance to make things change faster than louder movements. Please spread the word.
- I don't hold the only truth. This is a touchy subject and i'll understand the flame. Please make some decent reasoned points, i'll be happy to take them.
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I am always interessted to see the chinese point of view on these topics. Are the ppl in china aware of the cencoring and the human-rights violations? Would someone get in trouble to post about that on a forum like this?
And how much of this is just made up by wester media?
There are alot of proven human-rights violations in china, it is easy to criticize china for that and for its lack of democracy. But we also have human rights violations in europe/usa (situation of refugees coming to greece or italy, cases of police-brutality...) it often makes we wonder if we also might be "manipulated" to take our "superior" democracy for granted.
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i love the food, the places the cyber cafes and just about everything about china but this is not cool china... What the shit man what the shit...
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EPT
