EPTDemocracy won't make China better at this moment. The majority of people aren't educated enough to make intelligent decisions and it would open way for scams and exploits.
China threatens Nobel committee - Page 5
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FishForThought
Canada88 Posts
Democracy won't make China better at this moment. The majority of people aren't educated enough to make intelligent decisions and it would open way for scams and exploits. | ||
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Deadlyhazard
United States1177 Posts
On September 29 2010 09:02 buhhy wrote: Lol, actually, just realized that last sentence is pointless, will edit it out. China isn't developed. It's like the western world during the industrial revolution. IE: shitty working conditions for little pay. The west grew out of that with time, China will too. Oh wow. I always though it was a developed country. Just looked it up, it's listed as 'developing nation.' O_O | ||
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jpak
United States5045 Posts
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Half
United States2554 Posts
On September 29 2010 09:19 ccdnl wrote: Last post, just to point out how fail 'jumping to conclusions' logic is nothing but fail. You still havent answered my question to how Iraq + Usa pertains to me answering the man's question. You not only did not draw your conclusions properly, you drew them out of thin air. If you're going to have a logical, intelligent discussion with anyone, that aspect of yours will just kill the discussion. If one person is replying with whatever he feels like accusing just to get his point across, then that is not a discussion. It is an idiot being bigot. If you feel you must advise me to look up the definition, here it is: a person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion. I called you a bigot because you said ONLY if I left the country for Political reasons I could have a say in this. Why am I even trying to explain this to you if you can't even see that simple connection. I am not a stubborn fool however so I'll try to explain. You based again[ you see how your logic repeatedly fails you?] on nothing that I left China for non-political reasons. And on the naive assumption you will only listen to me IF I left for that reason. Does this not sound like "I will only let you talk about God if you believe in God?" Instead of trying to answer my question with questions why dont you just demonstrate your logic of why someone has to leave China for political reasons in order for them to talk about it? And to make you sound more of a moron, my family and I did leave China because we were fed up with the government. And to make you sound More of an idiot, I wish to return so I can try to reform China. Very ambitious but that is my sole reason of going back. Again you with your flawed logic jumped to another conclusion that "I want to return to China= I'm not willing to sacrifice for my ideals". If you want me to show you an example of your logic, I can go ahead right now and say you are a 2 feet tall, constantly frustrated, bald old man because of denial of any form of love in your life. You see what I did? I just came to a conclusion about you without any form of proof. It is a hyperbole but just to demonstrate the immense stupidity of following such logic. "also I made 1 typo. One. Srsly lol do you have any sort of point at all?" I was not trying to attack you, I gave a reason to why I had to double check with you. If you felt that way, then no comment. You could reply, I might even read your reply but this is the end of the discussion for me. You supporting that sort of logic will only bring me in circles. Last post, just to point out how fail 'jumping to conclusions' logic is nothing but fail. I was right. Its only fail if I jumped to conclusions and was wrong. I can go ahead right now and say you are a 2 feet tall, constantly frustrated, bald old man because of denial of any form of love in your life. You see what I did? I just came to a conclusion about you without any form of proof. It is a hyperbole but just to demonstrate the immense stupidity of following such logic. Except you are wrong. Instead of trying to answer my question with questions why dont you just demonstrate your logic of why someone has to leave China for political reasons in order for them to talk about it I already did read my previous post. Look your post isn't coherent anymore sorry. I shall proceed to try to explain my thoughts. Your original post states that people are not ignorant of their government. They just want a stable life. I am not condoning or chastising people for wanting a stable life I am however saying that not wanting to care about their government's action just because they want a stable life is ignorant. My metaphor was to demonstrate ignorance. I did not ask whether you would give up your arm. A man not bothering to call the ambulance for a dying man because he doesn't want to be bothered is ignorant of that person's health. You can say that you don't know him so you don't care. But it is still ignorance. Have you understood what I've tried to convey? Stop generalizing. Most people I know who want a stable life in mainland China are very secularily educated, and less ignorant then you. | ||
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buhhy
United States1113 Posts
On September 29 2010 09:25 ccdnl wrote: I shall proceed to try to explain my thoughts. Your original post states that people are not ignorant of their government. They just want a stable life. I am not condoning or chastising people for wanting a stable life I am however saying that not wanting to care about their government's action just because they want a stable life is ignorant. My metaphor was to demonstrate ignorance. I did not ask whether you would give up your arm. A man not bothering to call the ambulance for a dying man because he doesn't want to be bothered is ignorant of that person's health. You can say that you don't know him so you don't care. But it is still ignorance. Have you understood what I've tried to convey? Regime reform does not come without a price. Your example shows that you believe radically changing a country's governing structure is "as simple as calling 911". Likewise, you seem to believe the Chinese authoritarian government is akin to a fatal injury. Now, explain why you think that. Tell me why you believe a limited freedom of expression is so important that damage to social stability is justified. Tell me how you plan to change the government without causing said instability; look at the Soviet Union for a recent example. | ||
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Judicator
United States7270 Posts
On September 29 2010 09:28 jpak wrote: Everytime China comes up in the news, I think about those 400,000 North Korean "refugees" who are basically ghosts in China. In China, they're not even recognized as refugees, the definition of which is spelled out by the U.N (which is what you would think when thinking about refugees). If they're caught, they get sent back, where they'll most likely die. Even if they're not, they're most likely to be abused by the local population for labor and for sex. I may not know much about the Tibetan revolts and all, but the North Korean refugee issue alone really makes me sick towards China. Man how do you sleep with yourself at night knowing that illegal Mexicans risk their lives crossing the border into the US? (Bite on this one, please) Let's blame the country taking on the refugees and not the one sending them, let's not deal with them at all because there's no economic payoff in doing so. China doesn't send aid for NK at all, no not at all. Also, there is no concept of "rights" in Chinese culture, there won't be thanks to a little island called Taiwan where the "democratic" process has really resulted in some great leaders. | ||
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buhhy
United States1113 Posts
On September 29 2010 09:27 FishForThought wrote: Freedom of expression is overrated. The only people who actually have time to express themselves are people who are well off enough that everyday survival isn't their priority (which is a minority in China). Democracy won't make China better at this moment. The majority of people aren't educated enough to make intelligent decisions and it would open way for scams and exploits. Bingo. On September 29 2010 09:34 Judicator wrote: Man how do you sleep with yourself at night knowing that illegal Mexicans risk their lives crossing the border into the US? (Bite on this one, please) Let's blame the country taking on the refugees and not the one sending them, let's not deal with them at all because there's no economic payoff in doing so. China doesn't send aid for NK at all, no not at all. Also, there is no concept of "rights" in Chinese culture, there won't be thanks to a little island called Taiwan where the "democratic" process has really resulted in some great leaders. Eh, are you serious about the Taiwan bit, or is that sarcasm, what does Taiwan have to do with Chinese culture? | ||
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Deadlyhazard
United States1177 Posts
On September 29 2010 09:34 Judicator wrote: Man how do you sleep with yourself at night knowing that illegal Mexicans risk their lives crossing the border into the US? (Bite on this one, please) Let's blame the country taking on the refugees and not the one sending them, let's not deal with them at all because there's no economic payoff in doing so. China doesn't send aid for NK at all, no not at all. Also, there is no concept of "rights" in Chinese culture, there won't be thanks to a little island called Taiwan where the "democratic" process has really resulted in some great leaders. Is there any particular reason human rights aren't recognized in China? Is it because of how the government controls the people, or is it just a general idea that's spread or not spread throughout the land? | ||
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mangomango
United States265 Posts
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Slaughter
United States20255 Posts
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Half
United States2554 Posts
Freedom of expression is overrated. The only people who actually have time to express themselves are people who are well off enough that everyday survival isn't their priority (which is a minority in China). Democracy won't make China better at this moment. The majority of people aren't educated enough to make intelligent decisions and it would open way for scams and exploits. This is completely wrong. The current regimes primary victims are in fact, the sustenance class, those who are actively working just to put food on the table, the uneducated, the lower class. The rest are protesters, who are prosecuted because of protests. If your poor there is a very real chance the government can legitimately screw you over completely, and you given no way to legally redress the issue. If you speak out, you are beaten. You don't get the pomp of any "secret police". Thats reserved for lofty professors. No, police officers literally just start punching you on the streets. These are the real victims, and there are woefully little people from the East or West to tell there stories. Anyone else who is prosecuted or killed primarily for three reasons-Part of the Falun Gun, Actively advocating Tibetan succession, or protesting against aforementioned grievances and the arrest of protesters itself. These people are a minority. Which isn't to marginalize them, but not the real issue at hand because two of the three are basically heavily tied to the injustice on regional, provincial levels. | ||
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buhhy
United States1113 Posts
On September 29 2010 09:36 Deadlyhazard wrote: Is there any particular reason human rights aren't recognized in China? Is it because of how the government controls the people, or is it just a general idea that's spread or not spread throughout the land? People don't care about human rights unless the abuse hits close to home. For every terrible human rights abuse, there are millions who aren't abused. The majority aren't exposed to it, aren't threatened by it, and thus, don't care. It's the same for all humans, not just Chinese. | ||
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jpak
United States5045 Posts
On September 29 2010 09:34 Judicator wrote: Man how do you sleep with yourself at night knowing that illegal Mexicans risk their lives crossing the border into the US? (Bite on this one, please) Let's blame the country taking on the refugees and not the one sending them, let's not deal with them at all because there's no economic payoff in doing so. China doesn't send aid for NK at all, no not at all. Also, there is no concept of "rights" in Chinese culture, there won't be thanks to a little island called Taiwan where the "democratic" process has really resulted in some great leaders. I'm not gonna argue about the similarities between China/NK and U.S/Mexico because I honestly don't know enough about the immigration issue to make fair arguments as to why one's different from another. I'll tell you what IS different, though. Kicked out Mexicans don't have to worry about the gulags and the concentration camps back in their country. Sure, they may have to worry about drug wars and all, but that's not a government-sponsored activity (I will not elaborate on that due to lack of info, but it's safe to say that much). North Korea CHOOSES to send those people who flee because the government fails to provide basic needs to camps. And which country's cropping North Korea because of fear of instability? China. South Korea didn't send aid to the North for some time (they sent some recently, but very small compared to previous aids). | ||
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synapse
China13814 Posts
On September 29 2010 09:37 mangomango wrote: I think now they have to give it to Liu Xiaobo just to make a point. Maybe even reference the "official" Chinese point of view while they are explaining why the guy deserves it. The Chinese even tried to put pressure on the U.S. President not to meet with the Dalai Lama. This is a slightly different issue. Every single person in China hates the Dalai Lama, because to them, all he's done is promote the independence of Tibet. + Show Spoiler + To make things worse, the entire Western world supports this cause based on supposed "inhumane treatment" of Tibetans by the Chinese, which is entirely anti-China media bullshit. While the Chinese government spends millions upon millions of dollars supporting infrastructure development in Tibet, they are blamed for all things undesirable in the former serfdom that was Tibet. Tibet would wither and die in a day as an independent country. Warning the president not to meet with the Dalai Lama was not merely a politically driven decision. But yes, the Nobel committee definitely will give Liu Xiaobo the prize now. On September 29 2010 09:36 Deadlyhazard wrote: Is there any particular reason human rights aren't recognized in China? Is it because of how the government controls the people, or is it just a general idea that's spread or not spread throughout the land? To many modern-day Chinese, it is the government's job to make sure their lives dont suck dick. Job well done, nobody cares about "human rights" or "freedom of expression" - Chinese society doesn't seem to have the notion that freedom of speech is something that everyone should have. Unlike in the US, when things go bad, it's not immediately the government's fault... maybe that has something to do with the lack of "need" of freedom of speech. | ||
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Half
United States2554 Posts
but that's not a government-sponsored activity (I will not elaborate on that due to lack of info, but it's safe to say that much). North Korea CHOOSES to send those people who flee because the government fails to provide basic needs to camps. Very naive aren't you. 50% of the Mexican Government has close ties to drug Cartels. | ||
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jpak
United States5045 Posts
On September 29 2010 09:53 Half wrote: Very naive aren't you. 50% of the Mexican Government has close ties to drug Cartels. 50% is not 100%. NK is 100%. It's government POLICY to deal with defectors in that matter (the corruption in there is actually border guards getting bribes to look the other way). What you're talking about is corruption, which is not unique to just Mexico. | ||
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KissBlade
United States5718 Posts
People are always more interested in bashing and putting down others than attempting to better their own lives. | ||
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buhhy
United States1113 Posts
On September 29 2010 09:45 Half wrote: This is completely wrong. The current regimes primary victims are in fact, the sustenance class, those who are actively working just to put food on the table. The rest are protesters, who are prosecuted because of protests. He's solely talking about freedom of expression, which is for some reason, the most talked about issue regarding China other than. The sustenance class suffers mainly because of economic trouble. When working in a shitty environment with little pay, knowing you're easily replaceable is the only way of putting food on the table, it's no surprise millions desperately apply. The situation is very similar to the western industrial revolution. The west grew out of it, China probably will too. Yes, the disparity between the upper class and the lower class is growing, but the overall living condition is improving as well. Once a stable middle class is established, the government can shift towards a more communist system like the US and Canada, and gap can be closed again. It's just a matter of time. Protesters are always prosecuted... :/ | ||
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Half
United States2554 Posts
On September 29 2010 09:57 jpak wrote: 50% is not 100%. NK is 100%. It's government POLICY to deal with defectors in that matter (the corruption in there is actually border guards getting bribes to look the other way). What you're talking about is corruption, which is not unique to just Mexico. Policy doesn't mean anything, its actions that matter. | ||
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jpak
United States5045 Posts
On September 29 2010 09:59 Half wrote: Policy doesn't mean anything, its actions that matter. Again, I can't elaborate on the situation in Mexico, because of lack of info (perhaps you would like to enlighten me and the rest of TL on that). What I'm truly mad about, however, is how little the situation of refugees in Northeast China is talked about compared to the situation in Mexico, even in outside communities. I guess drugs highlight attention, and/or the Chinese are good at shutting voices up on that issue. | ||
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