EPTIf a social upheaval on the level 9-11 got a few thousand people killed in the US, something on a similar scale would get tens of thousands of people killed, easy. It's the flipside of having so many people, small policy changes can send shockwaves through the whole society.
China threatens Nobel committee - Page 7
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.risingdragoon
United States3021 Posts
If a social upheaval on the level 9-11 got a few thousand people killed in the US, something on a similar scale would get tens of thousands of people killed, easy. It's the flipside of having so many people, small policy changes can send shockwaves through the whole society. | ||
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.risingdragoon
United States3021 Posts
On September 29 2010 11:16 blitzkrieger wrote: China is a horrible place that does terrible things. From human rights to pollution to censorship to executions they are the worst. If you disagree they send you to a "reeducation camp" or maybe just kill you. They force abortion all the time and hate religion (because it calls for human rights/equality, they want atheist sheep). Its unbelievably messed up in China and I feel bad for the majority of the people who live there who have to suffer. I don't care about Nobel peace prizes or anything but this is where I like liberals in that they take on a common enemy aka China. I hope they keep pressuring China constantly and make them change but I think the revolt will come from the Chinese people when they get fed up with government. It would be nice to see the revolution but with 2 billion people I hope it comes more as a revelation than a huge bloody conflict. All I see is rhetoric. You're so ignorant you contradict yourself and probably don't even know it. | ||
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Grumbaki
Belgium141 Posts
On September 29 2010 10:13 MadVillain wrote: Ok It's one thing to say a populace is not ready for major change (such as a transition to democracy) but it's another to say that they aren't ready for fundamental human rights that the Chinese government's denies them. ALL people should be able to express their opinions (I wish some wouldn't, as we all do) but its that simple. Human rights are human rights, and everybody, every single human being (unless they've done something grotesque to deserve their revocation) deserves to have them honored. But in China this is not the case for some people which is why I'm hesitant to believe anything they Chinese government says, unless some changes take place. Sorry but i can't follow you there. 1- Freedom of speech is a right but it's not absolute. Check out EU laws on that you'll be surprised. try to pull some Nazi shit over here and you'll lose in court every time. 2- we're talking of a country were a racist troll pulls his phone in the east, get 2 ppl killed in the process, that triggers a racist reaction in the west with several dozen deads and all ends up in poorly trained and equipped military killing more people (lower estimates are 200) to stop the riots (in a discriminatory way). Go back to page one, this is a short description of the actual 2009 Xingjiang events. now you tell me that you want absolute freedom of speech (and thus press) in a country like that? Fox news china much??? | ||
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dybydx
Canada1764 Posts
On September 29 2010 11:16 blitzkrieger wrote: China is a horrible place that does terrible things. From human rights to pollution to censorship to executions they are the worst. If you disagree they send you to a "reeducation camp" or maybe just kill you. They force abortion all the time and hate religion (because it calls for human rights/equality, they want atheist sheep). Its unbelievably messed up in China and I feel bad for the majority of the people who live there who have to suffer. I don't care about Nobel peace prizes or anything but this is where I like liberals in that they take on a common enemy aka China. I hope they keep pressuring China constantly and make them change but I think the revolt will come from the Chinese people when they get fed up with government. It would be nice to see the revolution but with 2 billion people I hope it comes more as a revelation than a huge bloody conflict. funny... cause the communist party actually enjoy stronger domestic support than obama or bush. | ||
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Tankbusta
United States109 Posts
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Half
United States2554 Posts
Stop. You really don't understand what it means to live in a collectivist society, under collectivist government. Someone here posted that China has a higher government approval rate. Perhaps that is true. However, those who disapprove suffer far more. Lets talk about a topic that hits close to home. Video Games. Under a collectivist government, video games as we know it will no longer exist. The Game Industry, because it there is a belief that it contributes to social unrest, will be shut down. All forms of media that propagate alternative views -gone-. Things you take for granted, like political satire and social critique in the media-Gone-. This of course, is by far the least significant loss of freedom you will have to endure. But I imagine most of you are young, and this will be the most relevant. You can't possibly imagine what America would be like if it were not a free society. To actively advocate on a website like Teamliquid is something I believe can only come from a position of ignorance. To find the current system unsatisfactory and desire change for change itself. | ||
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.risingdragoon
United States3021 Posts
On September 29 2010 11:22 Grumbaki wrote: Sorry but i can't follow you there. 1- Freedom of speech is a right but it's not absolute. Check out EU laws on that you'll be surprised. try to pull some Nazi shit over here and you'll lose in court every time. 2- we're talking of a country were a racist troll pulls his phone in the east, get 2 ppl killed in the process, that triggers a racist reaction in the west with several dozen deads and all ends up in poorly trained and equipped military killing more people (lower estimates are 200) to stop the riots (in a discriminatory way). Go back to page one, this is a short description of the actual 2009 Xingjiang events. now you tell me that you want absolute freedom of speech (and thus press) in a country like that? Fox news china much??? You're making a lot of assumptions past the "racist reaction in the west." Freedom of speech doesn't preclude complete idiots talking outta their ass, but it does require an educated class of people to make that distinction (which by the way is starting to buckle in the US). The central government in China is, for all intents and purposes, too big to fail. You somehow take it out of the equation the whole thing will come down. It'll never happen except for the current gradual democratization. | ||
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ArbAttack
Canada198 Posts
I mean, its award criteria are about 3 billion times softer than that of the other Nobel prizes. I lost all my respect for this award when I found out profiteers such as Le Duc Tho, Afrafat and lol, Al Gore receive this award you know you can stop caring. | ||
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KissBlade
United States5718 Posts
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Grumbaki
Belgium141 Posts
On September 29 2010 11:13 dybydx wrote: Deng Xiao Ping being a great example. He cleaned up all the mess left behind by the early generation of hardcore communists. He disagreed strongly against the hardline policies but he did not revolt despite having the power to do so. Hell yeah, honors should be given to him way more than what they are. Specially out of china. He gets in the CCP system, rose from the ranks despite openly progressive views, suck it up during the cultural revolution, makes a come back, open china to the world, make pragmatic economic reforms, keeps the conservatives at bay even after 89... Say whatever you want but this guy and his buddies prevented china to become a new NK. That's prize material to me. | ||
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dybydx
Canada1764 Posts
1. I don't think anyone here seriously advocate the communist policy to apply in USA. they are simply criticizing the fantasy of democracy being the all-cure drug for China. 2. If you ever watch TV from mainland China you see news criticizing the gov EVERYDAY. but... there is a difference between constructive criticism and inciting revolt. 3. There are significant restrictions on video games in China. sexually suggestive and extreme violence is banned. although this is in response to parental complaints and such policies are in fact widely supported by the ppl. | ||
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KissBlade
United States5718 Posts
On September 29 2010 11:37 Grumbaki wrote: Hell yeah, honors should be given to him way more than what they are. Specially out of china. He gets in the CCP system, rose from the ranks despite openly progressive views, suck it up during the cultural revolution, makes a come back, open china to the world, make pragmatic economic reforms, keeps the conservatives at bay even after 89... Say whatever you want but this guy and his buddies prevented china to become a new NK. That's prize material to me. A lot of Chinese would equate Deng as Trotsky to Mao's Stalin. Thankfully he didn't meet as ignoble an end. | ||
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.risingdragoon
United States3021 Posts
On September 29 2010 11:34 Half wrote: Yeah to the people in this thread who are now saying U.S policy should resemble Chinese policy... Stop. You really don't understand what it means to live in a collectivist society, under collectivist government. Someone here posted that China has a higher government approval rate. Perhaps that is true. However, those who disapprove suffer far more. Lets talk about a topic that hits close to home. Video Games. Under a collectivist government, video games as we know it will no longer exist. The Game Industry, because it there is a belief that it contributes to social unrest, will be shut down. All forms of media that propagate alternative views -gone-. Things you take for granted, like political satire and social critique in the media-Gone-. This of course, is by far the least significant loss of freedom you will have to endure. But I imagine most of you are young, and this will be the most relevant. You can't possibly imagine what America would be like if it were not a free society. To actively advocate on a website like Teamliquid is something I believe can only come from a position of ignorance. You're also making tons of assumptions. Videogames will be there. Alternative views will be there although not prominent to a large degree. Political and social satire will definitely be there. It's impossible to imagine America as a collectivist society cus people themselves don't trust eachother. It's in the fucking mindset. "Free society" is too much back-padding, let's go with individualized society, eh? | ||
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Half
United States2554 Posts
On September 29 2010 11:41 dybydx wrote: @Half, 1. I don't think anyone here seriously advocate the communist policy to apply in USA. they are simply criticizing the fantasy of democracy being the all-cure drug for China. I would hope so. 2. If you ever watch TV from mainland China you see news criticizing the gov EVERYDAY. but... there is a difference between constructive criticism and inciting revolt. Yes, I've lived in China for eleven years intermittently throughout my life (I went to an international school). Yes, there are criticisms against the government. However, they are conservative and nationalist to the point where they are only critiques to make the public feel like they are critiquing the government, usually on an agenda the Government already had plans to improve. Criticisms on food health regulatory problems (very common), the availability of addictive video games to minors (ironic, and common), criticisms of corruption by government officials, maybe a heartwarming story of a migrant worker in the big city. These are not true criticisms so much are they just another extension of government propaganda. Ignoring issues which I see would be restricted (tibet, etc), there are other crucial issues like corruption on a provincial level or the flaws in the government responses to recent earthquakes that are strictly banned. 3. There are significant restrictions on video games in China. sexually suggestive and extreme violence is banned. although this is in response to parental complaints and such policies are in fact widely supported by the ppl. Yes, I am aware they largely come from consensus of the people. I do not think that China is despotism. It is a collectivism where the needs of the individual are marginalized in favor of the needs of the collective. And guess what? That means that niche activities (like video games) are marginalized in favor of the conservative social collective. You're also making tons of assumptions. Videogames will be there. Alternative views will be there although not prominent to a large degree. Political and social satire will definitely be there. Why? In other words, what institution does the individual have? Public opinion is still against violent video games. Under a collectivized society, there is no doubt that it would undergo heavy censorship. I'm curious, do you know how hard it is to publish politically saturated novels in China? Half of the famous works of literature produced in the U.S., including literature giants such as Bradbary and Vonnegut would not have stood a chance. Political and Social satire will be greatly limited. Chinese television sucks. Ignoring a few good dramas (that were mostly produced in Taiwan lol), almost all my Chinese friends pretty much exclusively watched subbed or nonsubbed english shows. | ||
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.risingdragoon
United States3021 Posts
I've already said this, it's when 2-3 hundred million people all play excessive games for long hours, that's when there's a problem. | ||
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Half
United States2554 Posts
On September 29 2010 11:51 .risingdragoon wrote: I don't think any one gives a fuck if you play some games, honestly. I've already said this, it's when 2-3 hundred million people all play excessive games for long hours, that's when there's a problem. So are you ready to give up your individual right (or severely detriment) to play games for them? You don't seem to understand what it means to live in a collectivized society. I'm curious, how many years have to lived in China? Any? I don't think its even worth my time discussing this with you if the number is less then 1, and your just making these statements from some suburb in canada. Moreover, as a developed nation, social problems are something we strive to deal with on an individual basis. Because we have the resources and development. (On the issue of illegal drugs, they are illegal due to financial interests and interest in maintaining the status quo. Morality has nothing to do with it) | ||
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Grumbaki
Belgium141 Posts
risingdragon: what makes you say that i throw assumption? i threw my credentials as much as i could in page 1 of the topic. | ||
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Meta
United States6225 Posts
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.risingdragoon
United States3021 Posts
On September 29 2010 11:53 Half wrote: So are you ready to give up your individual right to play games for them? Would you fucking stop with the assumptions??? The extent with which you assume things, stop it. It won't GO AWAY. It'll be restricted for certain age groups. Adults will be adults. | ||
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vindKtiv
United States215 Posts
On September 29 2010 11:34 Half wrote: Yeah to the people in this thread who are now saying U.S policy should resemble Chinese policy... Stop. You really don't understand what it means to live in a collectivist society, under collectivist government. Someone here posted that China has a higher government approval rate. Perhaps that is true. However, those who disapprove suffer far more. Lets talk about a topic that hits close to home. Video Games. Under a collectivist government, video games as we know it will no longer exist. The Game Industry, because it there is a belief that it contributes to social unrest, will be shut down. All forms of media that propagate alternative views -gone-. Things you take for granted, like political satire and social critique in the media-Gone-. This of course, is by far the least significant loss of freedom you will have to endure. But I imagine most of you are young, and this will be the most relevant. You can't possibly imagine what America would be like if it were not a free society. To actively advocate on a website like Teamliquid is something I believe can only come from a position of ignorance. To find the current system unsatisfactory and desire change for change itself. The United States is not a "free" society in any way, and China is not a "collectivist" society in any way. Yes I can imagine what America would be like if it were not a free society because it isn't a free society. A lot of posts seem to reiterate the "China is bad because it is Communist, the United States is good because it is a democracy" brainwashing. First of all, the United States isn't any where close to a democracy, and if all you can contribute to the discussion is the propaganda trash they threw at you when you were in 5th grade, then I do not see how you can contribute a healthy amount to the thread. Saying that some of the policy adopted by the Communist party in China is wrong would be a quite valid opinion. Saying that all of the policy adopted by the Communist party in China is, quite frankly, pure ignorance. Honestly, if you guys think China is some corrupt country full of despots while the United States is a white lamb, then you have yet to read into the history of the United States and current events. On September 29 2010 11:53 Half wrote: So are you ready to give up your individual right to play games for them? Video games are actually a thriving business in China. There are "laws," but they are loose enough for anyone who wants to enjoy video games to enjoy them. | ||
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