China threatens Nobel committee - Page 9

On September 29 2010 12:15 Wayra wrote:
Can someone provide some accurate information about the Tienanmen massacre? It just feels like it's always brought up whenever we talk about Chinese human rights. I have heard very conflicting statements about this. The people who I talked too, that were present during the protest all said that most casualties occurred when soldiers (very young recruits) entered beijing and started shooting at residents inside the buildings. However, when they arrived at Tienanmen, where most of the foreign media were present, few students were hurt, some were arrested and later released (many used this chance to leave china). In fact, the person who I talked to, said that the single regret he had about the entire event is not seeking asylum and come to USA. It seems to me that it's the residents who suffered the most, but there was no actual ""masscare" at the Tienanmen.

Wow, Half, from your last long post I'm convince...

that you're completely delusional.

Citing corporations and exploitation of "internal" resources as proof of democracy.

On September 29 2010 12:26 Tankbusta wrote:
Students rallied at Tienanmen Square for democracy. At first it was pretty popular, actually, the president of China even went there and talked with the students. If you had been there at the start, you would of never guessed it would end the way it did.

But then the rallies continued to last for weeks on end, it was getting pretty bad. Some small rioting happened, like at the G20 conferences, but smaller. The government kept telling them to move, and the protesters refused. And of curse, China was still getting over a period of horrid unrest from gangs controlling most of the country, and the nation itself still reeling from Mao's "Great Leap Forward," so the Chinese government overreacted and cleared out the protesters through force, which eventually turned violent, then very violent.

It was a big blunder on China's part and unfortunately the only way to barely save face after it was to ignore the incident and try to stop another one from happening.

On September 29 2010 12:30 vindKtiv wrote:


No YOU read my posts. You are an uninformed idiot who resorts to ad-hominem to justify baseless convictions and falsehoods.

See what I did there? Because I couldn't refute your argument (in my case, because you didn't provide one, in your case, probably because you just couldn't), I just dodged it.

For the sake of rebuttal, I will just say that your arguments are weak, and other than calling me and idiot I can make no more of it. I cannot say much more because I am quite aware that if I say anymore I will provoke you to further derail this thread and fill it with your flame and anger.

And you could've just said "You're arguments fail because they are based solely on emotional appeal." Not only would my sentence have earned you a better grade in English (because in higher level courses, teachers know when you are just using the thesaurus), my sentence is easier to comprehend, and less filled with rage. And by the way, if you weren't so pissed off and reread your post, you'd probably see that your arguments are based way more off of emotional appeal than mine (which is what ad-hominem means, in case you didn't know).


Okay point taken. I agree. I guess the Peace Prize wasn't always given based off of merit anyways.

On September 29 2010 12:32 Judicator wrote:


Well here's the thing, how many leaders of popular uprisings for whatever purpose do you know that are still alive or free after their movement is ultimately a failure after a level of showing that of Tienanmen? Just going off the top of my history knowledge, not very many. But the vast majority of the people behind Tienanmen are, just not in China.

To put it another way, there were a lot of people that stood to gain from a toppled PRC or a drastic change in government (think Russia with Yeltsin), to say that the demonstrations were solely and completely about government reform and all the "positives" would be naive.

For the students who demonstrated and were "forced" to leave China, of course they would, society would ostracize them and their family would be shamed.

Either way, there's something terribly fishy about the whole timing of the ordeal, namely because a lot of reforms and changes were going underway or have already gone under Deng. To say it wasn't a critical time in Chinese history in the modern era would be a lie, but for that kind of change to happen right away and through some kind of poorly informed student movement? No thanks, this isn't the working class who suffered generations of oppression at the hands of the elitists.

Look just go do your High School homework kid and stop posting. Come back in a couple years with a better understanding of the real world and the academic one.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_Hominem

Seriously your post is so retarded I don't even know where to start :/.

You don't have an argument kid.

I doubt you have walked anywhere outside of your suburban house, and if you have you probably did not make too much of the experience (lived a year in China... LOL). As for me, I have stayed in China for well over a year, my parents are Chinese as well.

Anyone who looks at countries like China, Russia, and hell even Iran and not see a parallel between them and the United States and its history either have a very skewed perception, or very well does not know what they are talking about.

And yes FFXIV isn't coming out in China. It isn't coming out in Brazil either, I guess Brazil must a horrible country to live in. Oh hey, a lot of Chinese games are not released in the United States. I guess the United States must be a horrible place to live in also.

Your arguments are weak, and your ignorance clear. You hide behind excessive words just reiterating the same propaganda junk the media and elementary schools throw at you. If you think the United States cannot learn a thing or two from China just because China isn't a "democracy," then you are wrong.

Are you saying that political systems are independent of economic models? Is your worldview really that shadow? No, they are mirrors of each other, they shape each other. If you're argument is that "The U.S. is not great because some dudes in beards randomly decided to revive roman republicanism with some modification by french dudes", then your right. However, Democracy has been an integral part of the Unite States growth, and arguing otherwise would be just as silly as saying "Chinese Communism/authoritarianism is not an integral part of China's growth".

Democracy has NEVER been a part of United States growth. Big corporations and politicians go to great strides to MAKE SURE the common people to get as small of a voice as possible. The Gilded Age, American Revolution and Industrial Revolution provide great examples where we have the benefit of hindsight. Is it that bad today? It arguably can be.

Now what I'm trying to argue here, is that your view of the history of the United States and China is skewed and ignorant.

I did read your post. I am going to summarize it:

China is bad. United States is good. You wouldn't be able to live in China because China isn't a democracy.

You did not say anything else, but rather layered big words over your argument to make up for the fact that you honestly have no clue about what you are talking about.

I doubt you have walked anywhere outside of your suburban house, and if you have you probably did not make too much of the experience (lived a year in China... LOL). As for me, I have stayed in China for well over a year, my parents are Chinese as well.

Anyone who looks at countries like China, Russia, and hell even Iran and not see a parallel between them and the United States and its history either have a very skewed perception, or very well does not know what they are talking about.

And yes FFXIV isn't coming out in China. It isn't coming out in Brazil either, I guess Brazil must a horrible country to live in. Oh hey, a lot of Chinese games are not released in the United States. I guess the United States must be a horrible place to live in also.

Your arguments are weak, and your ignorance clear. You hide behind excessive words just reiterating the same propaganda junk the media and elementary schools throw at you. If you think the United States cannot learn a thing or two from China just because China isn't a "democracy," then you are wrong.

And yes FFXIV isn't coming out in China.

On September 29 2010 12:51 TOloseGT wrote:
While I don't agree with what the state government is saying, I am also not for democracy in China at this stage.

The rate of development in China could not be where its at right now and without severe economic repercussions for the majority of the lower class and farmers without the one party system. Stability and economic growth is essential for a democracy to prosper, so give China a couple of decades and it will naturally grow more democratic.

On September 29 2010 12:36 Half wrote:


Ah I see. You agree with the claim, just not the definition or the ethos.

Are you saying that political systems are independent of economic models? Is your worldview really that shallow? No, they are mirrors of each other, they shape each other. If you're argument is that "The U.S. is not great because some dudes in beards randomly decided to revive roman republicanism with some modification by french dudes", then your right.

However, Democracy has been an integral part of the Unite States growth, and arguing otherwise would be just as silly as saying "Chinese Communism/authoritarianism is not an integral part of China's growth".

Lets think conversely. How would the U.S have become powerful without democracy?

You don't understand the big corporations that developed in America are intrinsically connected with American Democracy. They are the inevitable consequences of each other. You can just say "America became this way because of corporations". World events part of a complex system are not linear. Corporations exist because of Democracy, Democracy exists because of corporations. And the end result is a more free society compared to a more Authoritarian one.

Your thinking is all wrong. Democracy has always been for the few, for capitalism to work it needs large pool of labor to exploit. First it was the Blacks, then it was the poor. Since WWII this labor pool has simply shifted to incorporate migrants (which the economic power created through food price manipulation) for more delicate work while technology took on the bulk of the labor, which means the attention turned to oil-producing Central-American and African countries, who call their oil resources a curse. The growth of America has been fueled by many many countries' suffering, instability.

Communism is necessary for China whose quote unquote late to this little shindig. There's no way to China to compete unless it's centralized. China's risen cus, quite simply, their form of centralized capitalism is even more competitive than business oligarch's cus it combines many industries' capabilities and their strict-non-involvement pledge in native affairs.

On September 29 2010 13:02 .risingdragoon wrote:


Your thinking is all wrong. Democracy has always been for the few, for capitalism to work it needs large pool of labor to exploit. First it was the Blacks, then it was the poor. Since WWII this labor pool has simply shifted to incorporate migrants (which the economic power created through food price manipulation) for more delicate labor while technology took on the bulk of the labor, which means the attention turned to oil-producing Central-American and African countries, who call their oil resources a curse. The growth of America has been fueled by many many countries' suffering, instability.

Communism is necessary for China whose quote unquote late to this little shindig. There's no way to China to compete unless it's centralized. China's risen cus, quite simply, their form of centralized capitalism is even more competitive than business oligarch's.

Communism is necessary for China whose quote unquote late to this little shindig. There's no way to China to compete unless it's centralized. China's risen cus, quite simply, their form of centralized capitalism is even more competitive than business oligarch's.

HO MY GOD. This paragraph is pretty much the whole reason why I'm still in this conversation. You can attack me all you want because I don't care what someone like you thinks of me. And I might've said some snide things back, but only as a reaction and if you are offended then I'm sorry.

Yes America is this way today because of corporations.

However, de facto democracy has NEVER existed in the United States. NEVER. NEVER. It is because there is a lack of democracy that we have giant corporations. During the Gilded Age, it was the corrupt government that allowed big business corporations to exist. Even today, regulations and government policies that many people don't know about keep corporations afloat. Had the common people ever gotten their way, I really doubt they would vote for policies that keep the corporations afloat, today or in history.

China's political reform [...] should be gradual, peaceful, orderly and controllable and should be interactive, from above to below and from below to above. This way causes the least cost and leads to the most effective result. I know the basic principles of political change, that orderly and controllable social change is better than one which is chaotic and out of control. The order of a bad government is better than the chaos of anarchy. So I oppose systems of government that are dictatorships or monopolies. This is not 'inciting subversion of state power'. Opposition is not equivalent to subversion.

– Liu Xiaobo, Guilty of 'crime of speaking', February 9, 2010[20]

On September 29 2010 09:35 buhhy wrote:
Eh, are you serious about the Taiwan bit, or is that sarcasm, what does Taiwan have to do with Chinese culture?

One, it was highly relevant to Americas success. (Which you seemingly agree on). The other is that its more beneficial, long term and short term, and leads to more human rights for you. Ones that you seem to have taken for granted. I recommend you stop.

Regardless of absolute value my point is that America is more "Free" compared to China. And there is no reason why you would want it otherwise. America wouldn't even benefit from an Authoritarian government anyway, and even if it did, I wouldn't support one.

On September 29 2010 13:18 Judicator wrote:


Semi-serious, if you see whats going on a daily basis there, democracy is pretty much a legal sham show. Like if I saw my political hopeful doing half the things they do, I would move the fuck out.

Case in point, the two primary parties are fighting over something, either supposed corruption, their political futures, or whatever. That isn't what is important, what's stupid about the whole process in a far more Confucian society is that one of the parties brings out a octopus (think World Cup Paul) to make a point. Whoever the octopus picks is good for the general idea, except the octopus picks the opposing party's candidate...then the debate devolves into why octopus would pick that way (maybe it's the lighting). Keep in mind this is all happening in the congressional building. Never mind debating things that actually matter, keep focusing on the octopus.

Not to mention the whole corruption fiasco of the past president who still refuses to turn over the money; the fucking equivalent of Nixon doing Watergate, except he robbed the Treasury along with it when he moved out, then refusing to turn over the money. Best part is that people have been saying for years about the corruption that's so obvious that people can figure out stuff from photographs (the equivalent of Obama rolling up in a Bentley).

When you got the population and ethnic diversity of the size that China has, democracy on the national level simply does not work and elections would be a nightmare like they are now in Taiwan.