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The United States is not a "free" society in any way, and China is not a "collectivist" society in any way. Yes I can imagine what America would be like if it were not a free society because it isn't a free society.
A lot of posts seem to reiterate the "China is bad because it is Communist, the United States is good because it is a democracy" brainwashing. First of all, the United States isn't any where close to a democracy, and if all you can contribute to the discussion is the propaganda trash they threw at you when you were in 5th grade, then I do not see how you can contribute a healthy amount to the thread. Saying that some of the policy adopted by the Communist party in China is wrong would be a quite valid opinion. Saying that all of the policy adopted by the Communist party in China is, quite frankly, pure ignorance.
Hurf Durf.
I really hate posts like this which begin by assuming that your use of shorthand terminology means that you don't understand its limitations, and then spend a long time in detail proving how retarded you are for mistakes you didn't make. Some original thought please.
I agree with everything you said, and it doesn't refute anything I said. You know theirs a serious issue there.
Like, if I replaced "free" society with "Society with more individual freedoms" and "Collectivism" with "society with less individual freedoms in favor of the majority", a purely semantical issue, your whole pile of self gratifying and overly didactic crap would have been pointless.
Seriously read my posts kthx, and stop being such an ignorant prick.
Video games are actually a thriving business in China. There are "laws," but they are loose enough for anyone who wants to enjoy video games to enjoy them.
These laws directly effect the quality of video games, even for people outside of China See the development of FF14.
Honestly, if you guys think China is some corrupt country full of despots while the United States is a white lamb, then you have yet to read into the history of the United States and current events.
Who the fuck are you talking to. Please, read my posts in this thread before you continue to look any more stupid.
User was warned for this post
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Look I really would like to say that anyone who hasn't lived in a authoritarian country for a period of longer then 1 year independently should really just shut up. Sorry, but your theorycrafting from white suburbia is just as valid or realistic as the bronze league theorycrafting on the SC2gdf.
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On September 29 2010 11:53 Grumbaki wrote:
to nail it down once again: democracy is the goal, not the process. Democracy now would be dramatic for china as for the rest of the world. We have way enough demagogues and populists in power in the west as it is. A huge part of the CCP right now are technocrats and say whatever you want but this is the kind of people who get the job done. Dogmatic communists are being phased out.
agreed. large chunks of the top CPC staff have engineering background, including Hu and Wen.
since the days of Deng, the party took on a pragmatic approach and try to deliver solid results. the days of everyone holding a "red book" was long over by the time I was born. when i was in school there, it was all about studying hard and deliver real results. i never learned what communism was in school. heck, most of the 80's born wouldn't know either.
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Which authoritarian country have you lived in?
You're not talking to me BTW.
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On September 29 2010 12:03 .risingdragoon wrote:
Which authoritarian country have you lived in?
You're not talking to me BTW.
China, eleven years. There are pros and cons to it system, and I don't understand how any individual could possibly argue they should be applied in whole or part to America.
Unless of course they have a very poor grasp of what the "real world" is, sheltered in white America/random liberal european country there entire life.
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Why do you think America got to be where it is?
It sure as hell ain't democracy.
Clearly there are parts that can be applied. It wouldn't be what it is today, sure, that took some cold ass hegemony.
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On September 29 2010 12:06 .risingdragoon wrote:
Why do you think America got to be where it is?
It sure as hell ain't democracy.
First of all, I'm talking about the application of Authoritarian/collectivist principals to America now. Nothing more, nothing less. When did I ever condemn Chinese Authoritarianism? Please ready my first post in this thread.
Second of all, America got to where it is now partly because of democracy. I'll explain in a sec, but regardless of what you think about that, its a moot point to my core position.
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You Hilary Clinton or something? Don't recognize America's sphere of influence?
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and the winner of the bigotry and e-penis measuring contest award is... ~
oh wait i can't talk because i dont rep da authoritarian gov.
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Can someone provide some accurate information about the Tienanmen massacre? It just feels like it's always brought up whenever we talk about Chinese human rights. I have heard very conflicting statements about this. The people who I talked too, that were present during the protest all said that most casualties occurred when soldiers (very young recruits) entered beijing and started shooting at residents inside the buildings. However, when they arrived at Tienanmen, where most of the foreign media were present, few students were hurt, some were arrested and later released (many used this chance to leave china). In fact, the person who I talked to, said that the single regret he had about the entire event is not seeking asylum and come to USA. It seems to me that it's the residents who suffered the most, but there was no actual ""masscare" at the Tienanmen.
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@half and rising,
i think we should settle on the fact that the Chinese and American cultures are very different.
despite all its flaws, the general population in China is satisfied with the communist gov.
and despite all the criticisms, obama and every one of the members in congress and senate won their election by popular vote.
anyways, back on the topic, i dont think Mr. Liu deserve the Nobel Prize. he was a vocal supporter of freedom and democracy, but in my opinion, talk is cheap.
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On September 29 2010 11:57 Half wrote:Show nested quote +
The United States is not a "free" society in any way, and China is not a "collectivist" society in any way. Yes I can imagine what America would be like if it were not a free society because it isn't a free society.
A lot of posts seem to reiterate the "China is bad because it is Communist, the United States is good because it is a democracy" brainwashing. First of all, the United States isn't any where close to a democracy, and if all you can contribute to the discussion is the propaganda trash they threw at you when you were in 5th grade, then I do not see how you can contribute a healthy amount to the thread. Saying that some of the policy adopted by the Communist party in China is wrong would be a quite valid opinion. Saying that all of the policy adopted by the Communist party in China is, quite frankly, pure ignorance.
Hurf Durf. I really hate posts like this which begin by assuming that your use of shorthand terminology means that you don't understand its limitations, and then spend a long time in detail proving how retarded you are for mistakes you didn't make. Some original thought please. I agree with everything you said, and it doesn't refute anything I said. You know theirs a serious issue there. Like, if I replaced "free" society with "Society with more individual freedoms" and "Collectivism" with "society with less individual freedoms in favor of the majority", a purely semantical issue, your whole pile of self gratifying and overly didactic crap would have been pointless. Seriously read my posts kthx, and stop being such an ignorant prick. Show nested quote +
Video games are actually a thriving business in China. There are "laws," but they are loose enough for anyone who wants to enjoy video games to enjoy them.
These laws directly effect the quality of video games, even for people outside of China See the development of FF14. Show nested quote +
Honestly, if you guys think China is some corrupt country full of despots while the United States is a white lamb, then you have yet to read into the history of the United States and current events.
Who the fuck are you talking to. Please, read my posts in this thread before you continue to look any more stupid.
I did read your post. I am going to summarize it:
China is bad. United States is good. You wouldn't be able to live in China because China isn't a democracy.
You did not say anything else, but rather layered big words over your argument to make up for the fact that you honestly have no clue about what you are talking about.
I doubt you have walked anywhere outside of your suburban house, and if you have you probably did not make too much of the experience (lived a year in China... LOL). As for me, I have stayed in China for well over a year, my parents are Chinese as well.
Anyone who looks at countries like China, Russia, and hell even Iran and not see a parallel between them and the United States and its history either have a very skewed perception, or very well does not know what they are talking about.
And yes FFXIV isn't coming out in China. It isn't coming out in Brazil either, I guess Brazil must a horrible country to live in. Oh hey, a lot of Chinese games are not released in the United States. I guess the United States must be a horrible place to live in also.
Your arguments are weak, and your ignorance clear. You hide behind excessive words just reiterating the same propaganda junk the media and elementary schools throw at you. If you think the United States cannot learn a thing or two from China just because China isn't a "democracy," then you are wrong.
@half and rising,
i think we should settle on the fact that the Chinese and American cultures are very different.
despite all its flaws, the general population in China is satisfied with the communist gov.
and despite all the criticisms, obama and every one of the members in congress and senate won their election by popular vote.
anyways, back on the topic, i dont think Mr. Liu deserve the Nobel Prize. he was a vocal supporter of freedom and democracy, but in my opinion, talk is cheap.
Mr. Liu was thrown in jail for it. Other than becoming a martyr, I don't see what else he could do. Just dismissing the two cultures as "different" also doesn't really solve anything. China and the United States may be from different continents, but in the end people end up being people.
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Why do you think America got to be where it is?
It sure as hell ain't democracy.
Yeah, it was. Partly. Not "because of democracy", because democracy is just an expression of economic and social conditions.
America became a free society due to the abundance of resources. America became a superpower because it possessed the single largest piece of unexploited, underdeveloped land in the world. American democracy is just an extension of this, an extension that is sadly becoming less relevant (and should be defended by any citizen worth a damn).
Democracy in America became possible due to the availability of resources available to the individual (well, republican democracy limited to white males). Democracy is power to the people. It doesn't occur when a government body relinquishes its power to the people. That never fucking happens. Its when people gain enough "power" (wealth, social power) to supplement many roles of government. The abundance of individual wealth in America set the foundations that let democratic ideals of the enlightenment (which was again, a response to increased higher standards of living, through totalitarian means this time, but that is independent of America). Democracy contributed to growth in a reciprocal fashion. It was an expression of the growing power of the individual (white, male, decent background, average, etc), and the political system reflected the fact, giving power "to the people".
Moving foward, Americas vast abundance of resources such as oil and steel caused created the first megacorperations. Once again, democracy grew, this time driven by corporate power as opposed to individual power. The core ideology being the same. Power held by individuals outside of government means government open to citizens. This time, Democracy became less "pure" driven more heavily by economics, but democracy nonetheless. Once again, democracy maximizes the power of the individual, or in this case, nongovernmental bodies (corperations), allowing maximal growth.
Moving forward again, near the end of the Cold War, we see the consolidation of American Hegemony, and Americas vast resources have now become mundane after a century of development and exploitation. Here we see another consolidation of American democracy.
The exploitation we see in America is just a furtherment on its wealth acquired through exploitation of its vast natural resources. In this case, viewing human beings as natural resources or forcing natives off there land for theirs.
None of this of course, applied to China. The parralels are extremely strenuous, if not nonexistent. You can literally argue that are inverses of each other. Modern China is a society with its foundations on scarcity, while America is one founded upon abundance.
China is bad. United States is good. You wouldn't be able to live in China because China isn't a democracy.
You did not say anything else, but rather layered big words over your argument to make up for the fact that you honestly have no clue about what you are talking about.
I doubt you have walked anywhere outside of your suburban house, and if you have you probably did not make too much of the experience (lived a year in China... LOL). As for me, I have stayed in China for well over a year, my parents are Chinese as well.
Anyone who looks at countries like China, Russia, and hell even Iran and not see a parallel between them and the United States and its history either have a very skewed perception, or very well does not know what they are talking about.
And yes FFXIV isn't coming out in China. It isn't coming out in Brazil either, I guess Brazil must a horrible country to live in. Oh hey, a lot of Chinese games are not released in the United States. I guess the United States must be a horrible place to live in also.
Your arguments are weak, and your ignorance clear. You hide behind excessive words just reiterating the same propaganda junk the media and elementary schools throw at you. If you think the United States cannot learn a thing or two from China just because China isn't a "democracy," then you are wrong.
Read my posts earlier in this thread. You are an uninformed idiot who resorts to ad-hominem to justify baseless convictions and falsehoods.
I've spent roughly half my life in China Not one. How about this, your allowed to insult me once you spend five months working with the Ford foundation (aunt works there gave me the opportunity during senior year <3) as a volunteer in Sichuan on my ignorance as posed to having a pleasant vacation with your parents kid. Or really, doing anything there on a long term basis away from your parents :3.
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On September 29 2010 12:15 Wayra wrote:
Can someone provide some accurate information about the Tienanmen massacre? It just feels like it's always brought up whenever we talk about Chinese human rights. I have heard very conflicting statements about this. The people who I talked too, that were present during the protest all said that most casualties occurred when soldiers (very young recruits) entered beijing and started shooting at residents inside the buildings. However, when they arrived at Tienanmen, where most of the foreign media were present, few students were hurt, some were arrested and later released (many used this chance to leave china). In fact, the person who I talked to, said that the single regret he had about the entire event is not seeking asylum and come to USA. It seems to me that it's the residents who suffered the most, but there was no actual ""masscare" at the Tienanmen.
you can go google or check wikipedia for some brief idea of what happened.
overall it was an unfortunate event but it would be unfair to blame any single party to bear the majority of the blame. the students were being over zealous and the gov overreacted. some ppl did get shot by the army but they are generally not as innocent as the West portrayed them to be.
the aftermath was that most students now learn not to confront the gov directly and the gov learned to prevent any critical mass from building and getting out of hand.
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Anyone who looks at countries like China, Russia, and hell even Iran and not see a parallel between them and the United States and its history either have a very skewed perception, or very well does not know what they are talking about.
Ok humor me kid. Go on, analyze one. This should be funny.
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On September 29 2010 12:15 Wayra wrote:
Can someone provide some accurate information about the Tienanmen massacre? It just feels like it's always brought up whenever we talk about Chinese human rights. I have heard very conflicting statements about this. The people who I talked too, that were present during the protest all said that most casualties occurred when soldiers (very young recruits) entered beijing and started shooting at residents inside the buildings. However, when they arrived at Tienanmen, where most of the foreign media were present, few students were hurt, some were arrested and later released (many used this chance to leave china). In fact, the person who I talked to, said that the single regret he had about the entire event is not seeking asylum and come to USA. It seems to me that it's the residents who suffered the most, but there was no actual ""masscare" at the Tienanmen.
Students rallied at Tienanmen Square for democracy. At first it was pretty popular, actually, the president of China even went there and talked with the students. If you had been there at the start, you would of never guessed it would end the way it did.
But then the rallies continued to last for weeks on end, it was getting pretty bad. Some small rioting happened, like at the G20 conferences, but smaller. The government kept telling them to move, and the protesters refused. And of curse, China was still getting over a period of horrid unrest from gangs controlling most of the country, and the nation itself still reeling from Mao's "Great Leap Forward," so the Chinese government overreacted and cleared out the protesters through force, which eventually turned violent, then very violent.
It was a big blunder on China's part and unfortunately the only way to barely save face after it was to ignore the incident and try to stop another one from happening.
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On September 29 2010 12:16 vindKtiv wrote:
Mr. Liu was thrown in jail for it. Other than becoming a martyr, I don't see what else he could do. Just dismissing the two cultures as "different" also doesn't really solve anything. China and the United States may be from different continents, but in the end people end up being people.
In the last 100 years, there had been tons of martyrs in China and I can tell you that the bar has been raised to very high level. There had also been many lunatics and martyr wannabes. Being hotheaded doesn't get you any credits in China.
If you are not familiar with Chinese history, you can read up on Deng Xiao Ping, Zhang Xue Liang, Sun Zhong Shan. Theses are real heroes worthy of emulation.
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[B]On September 29 2010 12:20 Half wrote:[/B
Read my posts earlier in this thread. You are an uninformed idiot who resorts to ad-hominem to justify baseless convictions and falsehoods.
No YOU read my posts. You are an uninformed idiot who resorts to ad-hominem to justify baseless convictions and falsehoods.
See what I did there? Because I couldn't refute your argument (in my case, because you didn't provide one, in your case, probably because you just couldn't), I just dodged it.
For the sake of rebuttal, I will just say that your arguments are weak, and other than calling me and idiot I can make no more of it. I cannot say much more because I am quite aware that if I say anymore I will provoke you to further derail this thread and fill it with your flame and anger.
And you could've just said "You're arguments fail because they are based solely on emotional appeal." Not only would my sentence have earned you a better grade in English (because in higher level courses, teachers know when you are just using the thesaurus), my sentence is easier to comprehend, and less filled with rage. And by the way, if you weren't so pissed off and reread your post, you'd probably see that your arguments are based way more off of emotional appeal than mine (which is what ad-hominem means, in case you didn't know).
In the last 100 years, there had been tons of martyrs in China and I can tell you that the bar has been raised to very high level. There had also been many lunatics and martyr wannabes. Being hotheaded doesn't get you any credits in China.
If you are not familiar with Chinese history, you can read up on Deng Xiao Ping, Zhang Xue Liang, Sun Zhong Shan. Theses are real heroes worthy of emulation.
Okay point taken. I agree. I guess the Peace Prize wasn't always given based off of merit anyways.
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Wow, Half, from your last long post I'm convince...
that you're completely delusional.
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EPT
