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howerpower
United States619 Posts
On September 29 2010 06:52 Coagulation wrote: so this guy goes to prison for trying to make life better in china. I wonder if this guys name would of came up as a possible candidate had he not been sentenced to prison. People have won it for far less. aka obama. | ||
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FragKrag
United States11566 Posts
On September 29 2010 07:40 howerpower wrote: People have won it for far less. aka obama. people have also won it for far worse | ||
thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
I guess they're the new bullies of the world (supplanting the USA) | ||
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Grumbaki
Belgium141 Posts
On September 29 2010 07:35 esperanto wrote: I am always interessted to see the chinese point of view on these topics. Are the ppl in china aware of the cencoring and the human-rights violations? Both educated and (lower) middle class are aware of most situations (except maybe the gulags). Actually, educated ppl are actually the worst kind to convince as their answer is "as long as I get my share of the national growth, i don't give a flying f* about democracy and poor ppl's rights". For instance, I heard that from a chinese lawyer with UK education. O.o Would someone get in trouble to post about that on a forum like this? The gov sucks at internet control. If there's one thing you can dismiss right away it's the "great firewall of china". It's bullshit propaganda and such a nice topic for western media. You can only get caught if you post it in a stupid way. And how much of this is just made up by wester media? They generally don't make things up. But they do tell half truth because of their ignorance. Get info on the writers of the news, only trust those with credential and deep knowledge of the place. I really like your last point, because there is worse doesn't mean that we shouldn't look at ourselves. And if i might add, trust locals to take care of their business. Support, don't lead and specially don't go on your high horse. | ||
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corumjhaelen
France6884 Posts
On September 29 2010 07:13 composition wrote: Charter 08 is a petition for Democratic Elections. Liu Xiaobo is inciting revolution. "...shall have done the most or the best work for fraternity between nations, for the abolition or reduction of standing armies and for the holding and promotion of peace congresses." “A revolution is not a dinner party, or writing an essay, or painting a picture, or doing embroidery; it cannot be so refined, so leisurely and gentle, so temperate, kind, courteous, restrained and magnanimous. A revolution is an insurrection, an act of violence by which one class overthrows another.” Your second quote is from Mao, am I right ? I don't understand your point -_- | ||
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Half
United States2554 Posts
I am always interessted to see the chinese point of view on these topics. Are the ppl in china aware of the cencoring and the human-rights violations? Would someone get in trouble to post about that on a forum like this? A lot of the more educated upper middle class and there university age young adults are very aware of China's actions and there perception by the west. The only bias is that they generally tend to agree that the statistics are exaggerated by the west. (For instance, Tienanmen might be ~400-500 dead while western sources put that at 2000-3000). However, partly out of traditional Chinese values like respect and stability, and partly out of there own interests in maintaining the status quo (which they primarily benefit from). Most dissidents are people who have been genuinely wronged by the government yet are also educated enough to be able to resist in any meaningful way, or idealistic scholars and young people from upper class families. Most lower middle class and lower class people are aware, but they tend to note care, or feel like they are exaggerated, because they tend to put more value on state controlled media (which is so hilariously propoganda its fucking hilarious. For instance, the amount dead at Urumqi got lower the farther I moved out of the regions. Generally, in my experience, death tolls only go up :D) Some of the lower class does get abused heavily, but often, the abuse isn't really relevant to whats going on in Beijing, but corrupt statesmen who would be corrupt anyway regardless of system, and even when the fault lies in government, they often aren't educated enough to be able to stand up for themselves, so there cries are usually unheard. Regarding the internet, not really, but it has happened. Though never in a western website. In fact they don't really care about there international image that much, nobody important cares about it either, its just another tool. However, making a lot of noise and being recognized on national sites can lead to some trouble. And how much of this is just made up by wester media? Not much. In terms of frequency I can't give you an unbiased judgement, nor can anyone really, but the fact that tortures, rapes, and other brutality's occur on a notable basis isn't really too debatable. It definitely is far more authoritarian then eastern Europe lol, you can't comapre the towo. Substantial abuses do happen regularly. And Chinese news channels have been a good source of humor lol. There are alot of proven human-rights violations in china, it is easy to criticize china for that and for its lack of democracy. But we also have human rights violations in europe/usa (situation of refugees coming to greece or italy, cases of police-brutality...) it often makes we wonder if we also might be "manipulated" to take our "superior" democracy for granted. Well, theirs going to be a political or economic interest behind every single politically relavent message propagated nowadays. This could lead to a loss of "truth", but also, not necessarily be untrue. That being said, China is a pretty brutal Authoritarian government on some accounts. They're far worse then Italy or Greece. However, the atrocitys commited by the state don't really reach the of pure despotism, and the standard of living is higher then another very comparable case, India, another huge, multicultural developing country. India does have democracy, but it is incredibly corrupt and unstable. Entire provinces are basically controlled by militant organizations. | ||
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chobopeon
United States7342 Posts
On September 29 2010 07:43 thedeadhaji wrote: lol china... I guess they're the new bullies of the world (supplanting the USA) NEVER U S A U S A! | ||
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Wreacknell
Germany14 Posts
On September 29 2010 07:22 synapse wrote: That is the worst argument for Obama not deserving the Nobel Peace Prize that I've ever heard. Not only did he take office in the midst of these wars, he also led the withdrawal from these wars. On-topic: yeah, China... ... tsk tsk. Warning the Nobel committee to not award the Nobel Peace Prize to a political prisoner is only going to make them look worse to the rest of the world, what were they thinking? Renaming troops and putting goverment contractors in doesnt replace lost life in Afg or Iran(soon)/q. | ||
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buhhy
United States1113 Posts
On September 29 2010 07:35 esperanto wrote: I am always interessted to see the chinese point of view on these topics. Are the ppl in china aware of the cencoring and the human-rights violations? Would someone get in trouble to post about that on a forum like this? And how much of this is just made up by wester media? There are alot of proven human-rights violations in china, it is easy to criticize china for that and for its lack of democracy. But we also have human rights violations in europe/usa (situation of refugees coming to greece or italy, cases of police-brutality...) it often makes we wonder if we also might be "manipulated" to take our "superior" democracy for granted. People I know (middle class citizens) don't really care that much. Low class people, like farmers, don't even know. It's the higher class, more educated people, that raise their voice, like students. China is definitely not ready for democracy yet. Democracy does not promote action or radical changes, and relies on stability. China is not stable, internally, and externally. With elements like Tibet, Xinjiang, and social unrest, China has to be able to maintain a hard line to prevent uprisings. Also, with China rising on the international stage, it will become involved in political power play between the world powers. Democracy can't be build on unstable foundations. If China transitions to democracy too early, it will go the way of Russia. | ||
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crazeman
664 Posts
On September 29 2010 07:40 howerpower wrote: People have won it for far less. aka obama. Yep exactly. Oldish zefrank video inc: http://www.zefrank.com/zesblog/archives/2009/10/time_vid_on_the.html | ||
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Grumbaki
Belgium141 Posts
Despite its past innovations and culture, China was in middle age at the begining of 20th century. Specially socially. Then they had the shittiest time during WW2. Then Mao who was partly paranoid tyrant dumbf*ck partly necessary evil. The country is out of middle age basically since 79 (Deng's call)...that's 30 years! They need some time (once again that doesn't justify the sufferance of people now). Every country has a founding myth. US is "freedom, land of the braves", France is "kick the ass with anyone with authority". That's just 2 examples, you can find the one of your own country. For china it's "division is weakness, strong central power is prosperity": Check Xinshi Huangdi and the warring states period to understand. It plays a central role in chinese culture and political average joe opinion. Foreigners opening their mouth too loud will be badly seen for a long time. Beyond Japand and WW2, we generally forget the atrocities that the west did during the trade counters period. | ||
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Emon_
3925 Posts
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Half
United States2554 Posts
On September 29 2010 07:56 Emon_ wrote: This is just pathetic. You're going to discourage the celebration of courage under extreme circumstances? What a sad message to send to your people and your children. Nobody on this thread has voiced that Liu Xiaobo shouldn't be awarded for his courage and his sacrifice for human rights. | ||
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Gigaudas
Sweden1213 Posts
We have a debate in Sweden about whether we should be giving the prices that we are responsible of to less known people or if we need to do like the Norwegian committee and give it to well known figures like Obama. | ||
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ccdnl
United States611 Posts
On September 29 2010 07:35 esperanto wrote: I am always interessted to see the chinese point of view on these topics. Are the ppl in china aware of the cencoring and the human-rights violations? Would someone get in trouble to post about that on a forum like this? And how much of this is just made up by wester media? There are alot of proven human-rights violations in china, it is easy to criticize china for that and for its lack of democracy. But we also have human rights violations in europe/usa (situation of refugees coming to greece or italy, cases of police-brutality...) it often makes we wonder if we also might be "manipulated" to take our "superior" democracy for granted. A minority understands this--some adults, some young adults. Large majority are ignorant of it because they assume the government is working for their best. [Plus China is big, and a lot of stuff are censored, [news/internet], so information is hard to come by to a lot of people to even begin with] It disgusts me to speak with Chinese who have this sentiment. If you try to open their eyes, they just turn a blind eye to it. Many adults were born into this Communist society so they see things lighter than we do and see it as a way of life. The belief that the people who died at Tiananmen Square deserved it because they "disturbed" the government or attempted to "corrupt" the youth, is a very likely mindset for many older citizens of China. It disgusts me. Why don't the youth see this? Some do, but a whole damn lot go along with it because their parents do, censorship, etc. | ||
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buhhy
United States1113 Posts
On September 29 2010 07:53 Grumbaki wrote: Oh and a few last thing. Despite its past innovations and culture, China was in middle age at the begining of 20th century. Specially socially. Then they had the shittiest time during WW2. Then Mao who was partly paranoid tyrant dumbf*ck partly necessary evil. The country is out of middle age basically since 79 (Deng's call)...that's 30 years! They need some time (once again that doesn't justify the sufferance of people now). Every country has a founding myth. US is "freedom, land of the braves", France is "kick the ass with anyone with authority". That's just 2 examples, you can find the one of your own country. For china it's "division is weakness, strong central power is prosperity": Check Xinshi Huangdi and the warring states period to understand. It plays a central role in chinese culture and political average joe opinion. Foreigners opening their mouth too loud will be badly seen for a long time. Beyond Japand and WW2, we generally forget the atrocities that the west did during the trade counters period. The main reason China was fucked during the early 1900s was because of the Qing dynasty. The Ming dynasty was fine and many advancements happened during that time. China really stagnated during the Qing rule, and best of all, Europe came to fuck shit up in the Opium wars. After, everything just went downhill. If China had a democratic government after WWII, we'd be like India today. | ||
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ZERG_RUSSIAN
10417 Posts
On September 29 2010 07:40 howerpower wrote: People have won it for far less. aka obama. I think you've vastly underestimated Obama's contribution to the USA's image of being a scary nation with a warmongering, idiot leader worldwide. | ||
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buhhy
United States1113 Posts
On September 29 2010 07:59 ccdnl wrote: A minority understands this--some adults, some young adults. Large majority are ignorant of it because they assume the government is working for their best. [Plus China is big, and a lot of stuff are censored, [news/internet], so information is hard to come by to a lot of people to even begin with] It disgusts me to speak with Chinese who have this sentiment. If you try to open their eyes, they just turn a blind eye to it. Many adults were born into this Communist society so they see things lighter than we do and see it as a way of life. The belief that the people who died at Tiananmen Square deserved it because they "disturbed" the government or attempted to "corrupt" the youth, is a very likely mindset for many older citizens of China. It disgusts me. Why don't the youth see this? Some do, but a whole damn lot go along with it because their parents do, censorship, etc. Really...? Social turmoil in this time would be disastrous for China. People aren't ignorant, they just want a stable life. | ||
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Half
United States2554 Posts
On September 29 2010 07:59 buhhy wrote: The main reason China was fucked during the early 1900s was because of the Qing dynasty. The Ming dynasty was fine and many advancements happened during that time. China really stagnated during the Qing rule, and best of all, Europe came to fuck shit up in the Opium wars. After, everything just went downhill. If China had a democratic government after WWII, we'd be like India today. Is that a good thing or a bad thing? Keep in mind India is hardly stable, entire provinces are under the control of violent militants. A minority understands this--some adults, some young adults. Large majority are ignorant of it because they assume the government is working for their best. [Plus China is big, and a lot of stuff are censored, [news/internet], so information is hard to come by to a lot of people to even begin with] It disgusts me to speak with Chinese who have this sentiment. If you try to open their eyes, they just turn a blind eye to it. Many adults were born into this Communist society so they see things lighter than we do and see it as a way of life. The belief that the people who died at Tiananmen Square deserved it because they "disturbed" the government or attempted to "corrupt" the youth, is a very likely mindset for many older citizens of China. It disgusts me. Why don't the youth see this? Some do, but a whole damn lot go along with it because their parents do, censorship, etc. I'd respect this opinion so much more if your tag said "China". Who are you to choose for them whether they want Freedom or Security? Especially considering a lot of people I know are fully aware and chose security. | ||
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buhhy
United States1113 Posts
On September 29 2010 08:02 Half wrote: Is that a good thing or a bad thing? Keep in mind India is hardly stable, entire provinces are under the control of violent militants. Bad. Sometimes, sacrifices must be made for the good of the nation. For example, the one-child policy. Without it, China would be having HUGE overpopulation and food shortage issues. | ||
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