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Update: Thanks to TL I managed to find confidence in my PvT again! The mainproblem was my unitcomposition, I did not have enough zealots but zealots rape both marine and marauders, that was clearly the greatest hint for this matchup. I just lost every fight with my stalkerheavy unitmix.
As I mentioned I hate colossi vs terran so I can now easily go back to chargelots+HTs because zealots keep you alive long enough. With charge ready I even feel safe to expand and go 2base HTs.
I simply play a defensive 2gate robo variation with lots of zealots 1or2 stalker(for little early agression and mapcontrol) and a few sentries to fight early pushes at my choke. I throw down a TC and get charge asap -> add a fourth gate and go for storm.
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*scroll down for TL;DR version*
Hey guys this is my first topic on TL and I create this because I need help.
First off I dont have a RTS backround, I played counterstrike before sc2 and CnC Generals was the only strategygame I ever played, but just the campain not the multiplayer.
I somehow managed to reach top platinium playing protoss with less than 125 total games played in beta and retail.
I think I am someone who learns extremely fast and I usually know why I lost a game. This way Iam able to improve every day but I feel like I cant win vs terran lately.
I dont get a clue how I should play vs Terran using MMM. I usually dont have a problem playing mech, but mmm ist just... arrrgh cant explain, I just lose to total noobs using a mmm build.
During beta I tried anything to find a way to survive early game to reach chargelots plus storm wich wins the game period. To make it short I failed. I tried 1gate->core->stargate builds with pheonix and voidrays and 2gate stargatebuilds but I think none of those earlystargatebuild are vialbe because they lack detection and I usually fall behind in supply big time using these quite cheesy builds.
Ok because of this I went for a pretty solid 2gate-robo opening with 2 gas wich feels great and intuitive because of the early vision it grants and you can keep up supplywise, you see when its safe to expand etc. I love 2gate-robo.
I tried to play 2gate->robo->gate->twighlight->archive wich is okay in some games but when the terran pushes before either charge is rdy and/or before storm ist ready you usually lose every fight due to stim and medivacs on equal supplycount.
When I go stalkerheavy I dont have the dps to kill the bioball, when I go zealotheavy I get kited all day and cant kill anything.
This is why I now usually play 2gate->robo->gate->robobay for colossi wich leaves a smaller timingwindow for the terranplayer to kill me with ease.
The problem is I feel way weaker with colossi than I do with charge plus storm. It seems I cant win against marauderheavy armies and vikings kill colossi while stimmed marines/marauders kill my mainarmy.
TL;DR guys start from here
I need help against terran mmm, watch the replays plz and tell me what I can improve on, I feel lost and frustrated.
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-136593.jpg)
first game on xel naga caverns. He actually isnt noob, but this is a good example how screwed I am against timingpushes wihtout aoe. Was there anything I could have done to win this game? Iam sure there is, but I dont see it 
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-136595.jpg)
In this game I actually played a noob that doesnt even use controlgroups and I lost. He didnt even scout.
I know the counterattack was dumb, I actually tried to kill his expo, but he didnt had one so I tried to gain vision with my colossi and shoot up the ramp and then I realised that he didnt had any army left(havent seen it in my vision) and I tried to finish him and failed. I plundered in his second attack(didnt use my stalkers on my expo) but I think I would have lost anyways.
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-136603.jpg)
Ok this is actually the worst guy I had to play today and I still lost to him. He had no controlgroups, did not scout and stayed at 20worker all game long and I lost...
Maybe I should have attacked him earlier with my 2 colossi out but I tried to wait for him to expand, wich he did not do. Would I have won a fight after I denied his drop?
In the end again horrible horrible control. I lost 2 colossi due to missmicro and after that I felt like losing, I never felt like I could kill his army in my base and of course I forgot to rerally my robos in this fight.
I tried to force stim and run away or something but it did not work because he didnt use stim and I had horrible pylonplacement(will work on this).
So what do you guys think? Am I to passive overall? is it my micro, my build order, just write anything down you think I could improve on. If possible as detailed as possible
Actually I cant work on my timings too much, because I dont have a skilled trainingpartner.
So again write down anything that comes to your mind and sorry for my bad english 
Thanks in advance.
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well i just looked at the second game with PvT LT colossi vs mmm. and first off, your scouting in the beginning was great. you kept the probe alive you knew what he was going for you saw everything you needed to. the only thing is, i don't think you analyzed what you saw correctly. he got his 2 gas down while you were scouting in his base, by the time your probe got killed, it would have been too late for him to go reaper cause your stalkers could just stomp them. So you would figure that he would go to starport. You had an observer go into his base but foolishly let him die while an SCV built a missile turret next to you. if you had been observant of that you couldve kept it alive and seen that he was going medivac MM. from that point your biggest flaw was macro. from what you knew during the game, you atleast knew he was going MM so you would want to macro up as much as you could. by the time he first dropped you only had some stalkers, some zeals, and one colossi. after he destroyed your nexus and starting talking down workers with the couple of marauders he had at your expo. you were way behind already. no army, working off of one base, and less probes. after that the terran player was still working off of one base (idk why i guess he was overconfident that he would win) and all he needed to do was macro up another army real quick a couple medivacs and go in for the kill. So overall your biggest flaws were being able to scout efficiently with your observer which couldve told you that you behind in macro. and 2, simply your macro.
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Even if the Zealots get kited, they can still act as meat-shields for the bulk of your forces, particularly the damage from the Marauders. Going with your pure Stalker, Immortal, Sentry composition is pretty dangerous and never works in my experience. The longer you keep the Immortals and Stalkers alive and gunning down Marauders, the quicker you can mop up the rest. I've found the best way to engage the Stimmed MM ball is engage the guy until the last Zealot is alive, fall-back, spawn another wave of Zealots from Warp Gates and go back in.
And those replays exemplify the sheer stupidity of medivac drops and the frustration of losing an Observer to half a second of negligence as it runs into a Missile Turret. Can't honestly fault you for either of those.
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I'm not a very good SC2 player, so ill keep my comments to a minimum. In the game where you played against Dadda, just purely an observation, it seemed like he had the perfect unit composition at the start to counter your stalker/immortal unit composition. You didn't scout him properly at the start and didnt notice he had marauders to counter your stalkers, and rines against your immortal. unless sentry shield helps against this composition, i think you could've done a lot better with some zeals in your army instead of stalker heavy build. Also, i dont really trust warpgate tech unless im planning on warping them from far away, other than that, I would rather have them pop up from a gateway. because that just takes you away from a battle field to macro up again.
Honestly, the guy was making units to counter your build. he had vikings for colossus, rines for immortals and extra damage, and marauders against your stalker heavy. If this make any sense, i hope it's right.
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Marshall Islands3404 Posts
congralutations you have discovered how broken terran is at the moment. now go play them.
I, like you, enjoyed playing protoss until I got to diamond. then I never won another game as P.
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How is it Protoss can be balanced, even overpowered sub-Diamond, but then in Diamond, becomes the retard step-child?
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Marshall Islands3404 Posts
2 reasons.
1. Terrible anti-air
2. Unflexible tech/very "specialized" units
meaning once people learn how to scout, its very hard to make a sudden tech switch as toss and you can get rolled at any instant if they find what you are building.
(just my opinion, not fact) there are good protoss players but as far as average diamond goes...
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void ray harass has the potential to keep the Terran in his base and afraid to push out IF they go 3 rax.
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Thanks for the quick replies.
@lubu42: thanks for the reply but could you please specify on that macropoint? I mean I was always low on money, never got supplyblocked and constantly produced workers and I tried my best to warpin units when the warpgate cooldown was over. Yes, I stupidly lost my observer and had to rebuild it, thats why I didnt produce as much army as I wanted to. So please explain that thing a little more in detail
@Bibdy: thanks for that advice, I`ll try to mix in some zealots to tank the damage. Thats definitely worth a try! But what about the additional gas? I usually dump it in sentries wich have extremely low dps and suck in high numbers.
@Calidus: yeah I know and I played this alot in beta but I dont feel very comfortable with it because if you lose the voidray or the terran simply has enough antiair.. namely vikings. your voidrays are useless and he can move out an kill you. I hate the feeling of losing a voidray and being caught with my Pants down.
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I'm as scared as you of Terran, in fact it's put me off 1v1 laddering at the moment almost entirely, and I'm wracking my brain as to how I can stop losing stupidly to it. You're definitly a better player than me, but what I saw from you that I'm probably doing as well is not building those extra few zealots. I somehow feel if you'd have managed to get say 6 more zealots out before that confrontation in the first game it might have been differently.
I've heard of the voidray/stalker strat on here and other sites, but I really feel it requires pretty decent APM, at least compared to how easy it is for the Terran to build MM and stim up your ramp.
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On August 08 2010 09:20 Kurdaj wrote:
How is it Protoss can be balanced, even overpowered sub-Diamond, but then in Diamond, becomes the retard step-child?
in Diamond, people are better at making units and mashing d
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Hi Denny im a plat player struggling against terran bio balls, i'm by no means a good player but i'll offer my advice anyway;
my first thought is that your worker count was far too high - try and keep it at 2/3 probes per mineral patch (im sure you know this already) and by sacrificing probes put out 2/3 more immortals (the first game this would have made a big difference).
As Bibdy mentioned zealots are essential even if theyre not making many kills
If you go 3 gate robo for example, stick with it and apply pressure, don't add on a twilight council unless you feel you need it at the time. Also an early void ray can demolish a weak terran player.
Lastly if you havn't already, find a practice partner (preferably a terran ^^)
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infinity21
Canada6683 Posts
On August 08 2010 09:55 blabber wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2010 09:20 Kurdaj wrote:
How is it Protoss can be balanced, even overpowered sub-Diamond, but then in Diamond, becomes the retard step-child? in Diamond, people are better at making units and mashing d
Maybe if you guys stopped doing 4 gate warp prism rushes ^_^
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I really suck at TvP lol, but from watching your last game, you had the scouting knowledge with your observer. You knew he didn't expanded and he only had 2 raxes. You could've expanded earlier and gotten the economic advantage and then from there tech up.
I'm in platinum (but it's mainly because my placement matches were against players not that good...), but whenever I verse my protoss practice buddy, if I'm only off of one base, he's free to expand the hell out of the map, gain the economic advantage and out-tech and out-macro me.
Also, from your last match, he didn't even upgrade his infantry (besides stim), which really should've put you ahead.
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On August 08 2010 10:05 infinity21 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2010 09:55 blabber wrote:On August 08 2010 09:20 Kurdaj wrote:
How is it Protoss can be balanced, even overpowered sub-Diamond, but then in Diamond, becomes the retard step-child? in Diamond, people are better at making units and mashing d Maybe if you guys stopped doing 4 gate warp prism rushes ^_^
just me experimenting different all-ins on Steppes of War... kinda pointless to try to play macro game on that map when you take 2 steps and you're at my natural
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Immortals are the biggest trap you can fall into in PvT; never ever build them, they are a huge resource sink. The immortal is a really shitty unit to be perfectly honest. It's only really good against ultras and roaches because SC2 is rangecraft. Immortals are about the worst thing you can build against Terran. I skip them for colossus or HT. Playing against T is the most frustrating matchup in the game. There are so many options for T, which they can do without any fear, and each option requires a significantly different response from the Protoss.
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On August 08 2010 10:11 0mar wrote:
Immortals are the biggest trap you can fall into in PvT; never ever build them, they are a huge resource sink. The immortal is a really shitty unit to be perfectly honest. It's only really good against ultras and roaches because SC2 is rangecraft. Immortals are about the worst thing you can build against Terran. I skip them for colossus or HT. Playing against T is the most frustrating matchup in the game. There are so many options for T, which they can do without any fear, and each option requires a significantly different response from the Protoss.
agreed, if a terran sees you going for an immortal-based army then instead of mashing d, they mash a, and rip your army apart.
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Fighting MMM with gateway units is doable but requires a lot of micro. Your zealots with legs act as tanks, then you use guardian shield and attack from stalkers/immortals. If your zealots are gone and your getting the high dps from the MMM move out and use sentries to forcefield the bioball and prevent it from chasing you until you get more zealots.In the first game on xel'naga, you scouted the unit composition and 3 rax's and continued to make gateway units and immortals which is fine, i mean theoretically it works and with good micro it can work but in the situation you were in it would have been worth while getting a void ray out stragiht away. If you had 1 or 2 voidrays they would have torn apart both the marauders and medivacs while your gate army could have just targeted marines. When losing to something like MMM it's important to think 'what units would have made that fight easier' and after you've come to the conclusion of 'void rays would have really helped' you should really consider finding a place for a stargate in your build, perhaps 2gate robo stargate or perhaps go 3 gate robo to secure an expansion and then go stargate after the expansion.
I think as a protoss player the ability to scout so early with a robo s vital but what makes a good protoss player is his ability to macro and immediatly counter what he sees from his observer. Your unit composition in that xel'naga game was exactly what I would have done but watching it I realised how valuable void rays are against a 3 rax build so I'll probably start using them more often. I'll try and come up with some sort of decent 3gate->robo->stargate build tomorrow for a direct counter to mmm but honestly I'm not that great a strategist yet
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On August 08 2010 10:21 -zoom- wrote:Fighting MMM with gateway units is doable but requires a lot of micro. Your zealots with legs act as tanks, then you use guardian shield and attack from stalkers/immortals. If your zealots are gone and your getting the high dps from the MMM move out and use sentries to forcefield the bioball and prevent it from chasing you until you get more zealots.In the first game on xel'naga, you scouted the unit composition and 3 rax's and continued to make gateway units and immortals which is fine, i mean theoretically it works and with good micro it can work but in the situation you were in it would have been worth while getting a void ray out stragiht away. If you had 1 or 2 voidrays they would have torn apart both the marauders and medivacs while your gate army could have just targeted marines. When losing to something like MMM it's important to think 'what units would have made that fight easier' and after you've come to the conclusion of 'void rays would have really helped' you should really consider finding a place for a stargate in your build, perhaps 2gate robo stargate or perhaps go 3 gate robo to secure an expansion and then go stargate after the expansion. I think as a protoss player the ability to scout so early with a robo s vital but what makes a good protoss player is his ability to macro and immediatly counter what he sees from his observer. Your unit composition in that xel'naga game was exactly what I would have done but watching it I realised how valuable void rays are against a 3 rax build so I'll probably start using them more often. I'll try and come up with some sort of decent 3gate->robo->stargate build tomorrow for a direct counter to mmm but honestly I'm not that great a strategist yet
void rays are bad vs 3rax strategy imo because marines can easily take down your void rays and you're not going to have enough units to do enough dps to kill the terran army without the medivacs instantly healing everything. Also if they have medivacs there isn't anything stopping them from pumping out a few vikings. See this is one of the big problems with Terran in my eyes. They take one tech path and they can get pretty much every single Terran unit, and all are effective. Protoss players have to go Robo and/or Stargate and/or Twilight Council. In BW it wasn't much of a problem because only factory units were viable in most games...
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what do you guys spend your money on if you go robo for observer and dont build immortals? 3gates are not enough to keep your money low, so you build the robobay instead of the first immortal?
what about expanding? Iam usually very good at constant probeproduction wich helps me midgame after my expo is up, but I usually never expand before I scout the terran expo because I almost always lose it or the whole game to a timingpush.
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EPT
