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Update: Thanks to TL I managed to find confidence in my PvT again! The mainproblem was my unitcomposition, I did not have enough zealots but zealots rape both marine and marauders, that was clearly the greatest hint for this matchup. I just lost every fight with my stalkerheavy unitmix.
As I mentioned I hate colossi vs terran so I can now easily go back to chargelots+HTs because zealots keep you alive long enough. With charge ready I even feel safe to expand and go 2base HTs.
I simply play a defensive 2gate robo variation with lots of zealots 1or2 stalker(for little early agression and mapcontrol) and a few sentries to fight early pushes at my choke. I throw down a TC and get charge asap -> add a fourth gate and go for storm.
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*scroll down for TL;DR version*
Hey guys this is my first topic on TL and I create this because I need help.
First off I dont have a RTS backround, I played counterstrike before sc2 and CnC Generals was the only strategygame I ever played, but just the campain not the multiplayer.
I somehow managed to reach top platinium playing protoss with less than 125 total games played in beta and retail.
I think I am someone who learns extremely fast and I usually know why I lost a game. This way Iam able to improve every day but I feel like I cant win vs terran lately.
I dont get a clue how I should play vs Terran using MMM. I usually dont have a problem playing mech, but mmm ist just... arrrgh cant explain, I just lose to total noobs using a mmm build.
During beta I tried anything to find a way to survive early game to reach chargelots plus storm wich wins the game period. To make it short I failed. I tried 1gate->core->stargate builds with pheonix and voidrays and 2gate stargatebuilds but I think none of those earlystargatebuild are vialbe because they lack detection and I usually fall behind in supply big time using these quite cheesy builds.
Ok because of this I went for a pretty solid 2gate-robo opening with 2 gas wich feels great and intuitive because of the early vision it grants and you can keep up supplywise, you see when its safe to expand etc. I love 2gate-robo.
I tried to play 2gate->robo->gate->twighlight->archive wich is okay in some games but when the terran pushes before either charge is rdy and/or before storm ist ready you usually lose every fight due to stim and medivacs on equal supplycount.
When I go stalkerheavy I dont have the dps to kill the bioball, when I go zealotheavy I get kited all day and cant kill anything.
This is why I now usually play 2gate->robo->gate->robobay for colossi wich leaves a smaller timingwindow for the terranplayer to kill me with ease.
The problem is I feel way weaker with colossi than I do with charge plus storm. It seems I cant win against marauderheavy armies and vikings kill colossi while stimmed marines/marauders kill my mainarmy.
TL;DR guys start from here
I need help against terran mmm, watch the replays plz and tell me what I can improve on, I feel lost and frustrated.
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-136593.jpg)
first game on xel naga caverns. He actually isnt noob, but this is a good example how screwed I am against timingpushes wihtout aoe. Was there anything I could have done to win this game? Iam sure there is, but I dont see it 
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-136595.jpg)
In this game I actually played a noob that doesnt even use controlgroups and I lost. He didnt even scout.
I know the counterattack was dumb, I actually tried to kill his expo, but he didnt had one so I tried to gain vision with my colossi and shoot up the ramp and then I realised that he didnt had any army left(havent seen it in my vision) and I tried to finish him and failed. I plundered in his second attack(didnt use my stalkers on my expo) but I think I would have lost anyways.
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-136603.jpg)
Ok this is actually the worst guy I had to play today and I still lost to him. He had no controlgroups, did not scout and stayed at 20worker all game long and I lost...
Maybe I should have attacked him earlier with my 2 colossi out but I tried to wait for him to expand, wich he did not do. Would I have won a fight after I denied his drop?
In the end again horrible horrible control. I lost 2 colossi due to missmicro and after that I felt like losing, I never felt like I could kill his army in my base and of course I forgot to rerally my robos in this fight.
I tried to force stim and run away or something but it did not work because he didnt use stim and I had horrible pylonplacement(will work on this).
So what do you guys think? Am I to passive overall? is it my micro, my build order, just write anything down you think I could improve on. If possible as detailed as possible
Actually I cant work on my timings too much, because I dont have a skilled trainingpartner.
So again write down anything that comes to your mind and sorry for my bad english 
Thanks in advance.
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well i just looked at the second game with PvT LT colossi vs mmm. and first off, your scouting in the beginning was great. you kept the probe alive you knew what he was going for you saw everything you needed to. the only thing is, i don't think you analyzed what you saw correctly. he got his 2 gas down while you were scouting in his base, by the time your probe got killed, it would have been too late for him to go reaper cause your stalkers could just stomp them. So you would figure that he would go to starport. You had an observer go into his base but foolishly let him die while an SCV built a missile turret next to you. if you had been observant of that you couldve kept it alive and seen that he was going medivac MM. from that point your biggest flaw was macro. from what you knew during the game, you atleast knew he was going MM so you would want to macro up as much as you could. by the time he first dropped you only had some stalkers, some zeals, and one colossi. after he destroyed your nexus and starting talking down workers with the couple of marauders he had at your expo. you were way behind already. no army, working off of one base, and less probes. after that the terran player was still working off of one base (idk why i guess he was overconfident that he would win) and all he needed to do was macro up another army real quick a couple medivacs and go in for the kill. So overall your biggest flaws were being able to scout efficiently with your observer which couldve told you that you behind in macro. and 2, simply your macro.
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Even if the Zealots get kited, they can still act as meat-shields for the bulk of your forces, particularly the damage from the Marauders. Going with your pure Stalker, Immortal, Sentry composition is pretty dangerous and never works in my experience. The longer you keep the Immortals and Stalkers alive and gunning down Marauders, the quicker you can mop up the rest. I've found the best way to engage the Stimmed MM ball is engage the guy until the last Zealot is alive, fall-back, spawn another wave of Zealots from Warp Gates and go back in.
And those replays exemplify the sheer stupidity of medivac drops and the frustration of losing an Observer to half a second of negligence as it runs into a Missile Turret. Can't honestly fault you for either of those.
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I'm not a very good SC2 player, so ill keep my comments to a minimum. In the game where you played against Dadda, just purely an observation, it seemed like he had the perfect unit composition at the start to counter your stalker/immortal unit composition. You didn't scout him properly at the start and didnt notice he had marauders to counter your stalkers, and rines against your immortal. unless sentry shield helps against this composition, i think you could've done a lot better with some zeals in your army instead of stalker heavy build. Also, i dont really trust warpgate tech unless im planning on warping them from far away, other than that, I would rather have them pop up from a gateway. because that just takes you away from a battle field to macro up again.
Honestly, the guy was making units to counter your build. he had vikings for colossus, rines for immortals and extra damage, and marauders against your stalker heavy. If this make any sense, i hope it's right.
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Marshall Islands3404 Posts
congralutations you have discovered how broken terran is at the moment. now go play them.
I, like you, enjoyed playing protoss until I got to diamond. then I never won another game as P.
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How is it Protoss can be balanced, even overpowered sub-Diamond, but then in Diamond, becomes the retard step-child?
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Marshall Islands3404 Posts
2 reasons.
1. Terrible anti-air
2. Unflexible tech/very "specialized" units
meaning once people learn how to scout, its very hard to make a sudden tech switch as toss and you can get rolled at any instant if they find what you are building.
(just my opinion, not fact) there are good protoss players but as far as average diamond goes...
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void ray harass has the potential to keep the Terran in his base and afraid to push out IF they go 3 rax.
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Thanks for the quick replies.
@lubu42: thanks for the reply but could you please specify on that macropoint? I mean I was always low on money, never got supplyblocked and constantly produced workers and I tried my best to warpin units when the warpgate cooldown was over. Yes, I stupidly lost my observer and had to rebuild it, thats why I didnt produce as much army as I wanted to. So please explain that thing a little more in detail
@Bibdy: thanks for that advice, I`ll try to mix in some zealots to tank the damage. Thats definitely worth a try! But what about the additional gas? I usually dump it in sentries wich have extremely low dps and suck in high numbers.
@Calidus: yeah I know and I played this alot in beta but I dont feel very comfortable with it because if you lose the voidray or the terran simply has enough antiair.. namely vikings. your voidrays are useless and he can move out an kill you. I hate the feeling of losing a voidray and being caught with my Pants down.
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I'm as scared as you of Terran, in fact it's put me off 1v1 laddering at the moment almost entirely, and I'm wracking my brain as to how I can stop losing stupidly to it. You're definitly a better player than me, but what I saw from you that I'm probably doing as well is not building those extra few zealots. I somehow feel if you'd have managed to get say 6 more zealots out before that confrontation in the first game it might have been differently.
I've heard of the voidray/stalker strat on here and other sites, but I really feel it requires pretty decent APM, at least compared to how easy it is for the Terran to build MM and stim up your ramp.
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On August 08 2010 09:20 Kurdaj wrote:
How is it Protoss can be balanced, even overpowered sub-Diamond, but then in Diamond, becomes the retard step-child?
in Diamond, people are better at making units and mashing d
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Hi Denny im a plat player struggling against terran bio balls, i'm by no means a good player but i'll offer my advice anyway;
my first thought is that your worker count was far too high - try and keep it at 2/3 probes per mineral patch (im sure you know this already) and by sacrificing probes put out 2/3 more immortals (the first game this would have made a big difference).
As Bibdy mentioned zealots are essential even if theyre not making many kills
If you go 3 gate robo for example, stick with it and apply pressure, don't add on a twilight council unless you feel you need it at the time. Also an early void ray can demolish a weak terran player.
Lastly if you havn't already, find a practice partner (preferably a terran ^^)
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infinity21
Canada6683 Posts
On August 08 2010 09:55 blabber wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2010 09:20 Kurdaj wrote:
How is it Protoss can be balanced, even overpowered sub-Diamond, but then in Diamond, becomes the retard step-child? in Diamond, people are better at making units and mashing d
Maybe if you guys stopped doing 4 gate warp prism rushes ^_^
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I really suck at TvP lol, but from watching your last game, you had the scouting knowledge with your observer. You knew he didn't expanded and he only had 2 raxes. You could've expanded earlier and gotten the economic advantage and then from there tech up.
I'm in platinum (but it's mainly because my placement matches were against players not that good...), but whenever I verse my protoss practice buddy, if I'm only off of one base, he's free to expand the hell out of the map, gain the economic advantage and out-tech and out-macro me.
Also, from your last match, he didn't even upgrade his infantry (besides stim), which really should've put you ahead.
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On August 08 2010 10:05 infinity21 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2010 09:55 blabber wrote:On August 08 2010 09:20 Kurdaj wrote:
How is it Protoss can be balanced, even overpowered sub-Diamond, but then in Diamond, becomes the retard step-child? in Diamond, people are better at making units and mashing d Maybe if you guys stopped doing 4 gate warp prism rushes ^_^
just me experimenting different all-ins on Steppes of War... kinda pointless to try to play macro game on that map when you take 2 steps and you're at my natural
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Immortals are the biggest trap you can fall into in PvT; never ever build them, they are a huge resource sink. The immortal is a really shitty unit to be perfectly honest. It's only really good against ultras and roaches because SC2 is rangecraft. Immortals are about the worst thing you can build against Terran. I skip them for colossus or HT. Playing against T is the most frustrating matchup in the game. There are so many options for T, which they can do without any fear, and each option requires a significantly different response from the Protoss.
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On August 08 2010 10:11 0mar wrote:
Immortals are the biggest trap you can fall into in PvT; never ever build them, they are a huge resource sink. The immortal is a really shitty unit to be perfectly honest. It's only really good against ultras and roaches because SC2 is rangecraft. Immortals are about the worst thing you can build against Terran. I skip them for colossus or HT. Playing against T is the most frustrating matchup in the game. There are so many options for T, which they can do without any fear, and each option requires a significantly different response from the Protoss.
agreed, if a terran sees you going for an immortal-based army then instead of mashing d, they mash a, and rip your army apart.
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Fighting MMM with gateway units is doable but requires a lot of micro. Your zealots with legs act as tanks, then you use guardian shield and attack from stalkers/immortals. If your zealots are gone and your getting the high dps from the MMM move out and use sentries to forcefield the bioball and prevent it from chasing you until you get more zealots.In the first game on xel'naga, you scouted the unit composition and 3 rax's and continued to make gateway units and immortals which is fine, i mean theoretically it works and with good micro it can work but in the situation you were in it would have been worth while getting a void ray out stragiht away. If you had 1 or 2 voidrays they would have torn apart both the marauders and medivacs while your gate army could have just targeted marines. When losing to something like MMM it's important to think 'what units would have made that fight easier' and after you've come to the conclusion of 'void rays would have really helped' you should really consider finding a place for a stargate in your build, perhaps 2gate robo stargate or perhaps go 3 gate robo to secure an expansion and then go stargate after the expansion.
I think as a protoss player the ability to scout so early with a robo s vital but what makes a good protoss player is his ability to macro and immediatly counter what he sees from his observer. Your unit composition in that xel'naga game was exactly what I would have done but watching it I realised how valuable void rays are against a 3 rax build so I'll probably start using them more often. I'll try and come up with some sort of decent 3gate->robo->stargate build tomorrow for a direct counter to mmm but honestly I'm not that great a strategist yet
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On August 08 2010 10:21 -zoom- wrote:Fighting MMM with gateway units is doable but requires a lot of micro. Your zealots with legs act as tanks, then you use guardian shield and attack from stalkers/immortals. If your zealots are gone and your getting the high dps from the MMM move out and use sentries to forcefield the bioball and prevent it from chasing you until you get more zealots.In the first game on xel'naga, you scouted the unit composition and 3 rax's and continued to make gateway units and immortals which is fine, i mean theoretically it works and with good micro it can work but in the situation you were in it would have been worth while getting a void ray out stragiht away. If you had 1 or 2 voidrays they would have torn apart both the marauders and medivacs while your gate army could have just targeted marines. When losing to something like MMM it's important to think 'what units would have made that fight easier' and after you've come to the conclusion of 'void rays would have really helped' you should really consider finding a place for a stargate in your build, perhaps 2gate robo stargate or perhaps go 3 gate robo to secure an expansion and then go stargate after the expansion. I think as a protoss player the ability to scout so early with a robo s vital but what makes a good protoss player is his ability to macro and immediatly counter what he sees from his observer. Your unit composition in that xel'naga game was exactly what I would have done but watching it I realised how valuable void rays are against a 3 rax build so I'll probably start using them more often. I'll try and come up with some sort of decent 3gate->robo->stargate build tomorrow for a direct counter to mmm but honestly I'm not that great a strategist yet
void rays are bad vs 3rax strategy imo because marines can easily take down your void rays and you're not going to have enough units to do enough dps to kill the terran army without the medivacs instantly healing everything. Also if they have medivacs there isn't anything stopping them from pumping out a few vikings. See this is one of the big problems with Terran in my eyes. They take one tech path and they can get pretty much every single Terran unit, and all are effective. Protoss players have to go Robo and/or Stargate and/or Twilight Council. In BW it wasn't much of a problem because only factory units were viable in most games...
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what do you guys spend your money on if you go robo for observer and dont build immortals? 3gates are not enough to keep your money low, so you build the robobay instead of the first immortal?
what about expanding? Iam usually very good at constant probeproduction wich helps me midgame after my expo is up, but I usually never expand before I scout the terran expo because I almost always lose it or the whole game to a timingpush.
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As a Terran player, I find that Collossi with Chargelots to act as shield and do a ton of damage does a lot of damage to my bio. The chargelots are very difficult to kite, maybe even impossible in large numbers, and the collossi do a ton of damage to the tightly packed bio units.
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On August 08 2010 10:30 DennyR wrote:
what do you guys spend your money on if you go robo for observer and dont build immortals? 3gates are not enough to keep your money low, so you build the robobay instead of the first immortal?
what about expanding? Iam usually very good at constant probeproduction wich helps me midgame after my expo is up, but I usually never expand before I scout the terran expo because I almost always lose it or the whole game to a timingpush.
gateway units, expo, teching to high templars or possibly colossi if you want to go that route
expanding is a weird thing in pvt. It's very hard to expand if the terran is going to do a one-base strategy because anything you have is going to melt or at the very least your expo is going to die. You pretty much have to scout his building CC and you'll know it's okay to expand. Many times I just guess he's expanding and I expand myself. If I'm right, good for me, time to play the macro game. If I'm wrong, he'll just a-move + t and win the game.
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Game vs optik: Moving out with 5 stalkers? Why? You know concussive shells are on the field, so it's risky... 5 stalkers aren't enough to take on any force of his... you might as well send out a probe here.
Real missed opportunity when he assaults your ramp. Don't throw down a forcefield in front of his army... throw it down in the *middle* as he moves his army up your ramp, then take on half of it at a time. Easy way to get free kills.
Good recovery after that early damage. I like your macro.
Engagement in the middle of the map: why do you forcefield behind his army? He has marauders shooting stalkers, he *wants* to engage. If you had zealots, sure, that would be awesome. In this situation, use your forcefields to split the enemy in half. The marines/marauders at the back will be unable to move forwards to shoot, whereas all your army can take on the forces stuck in front.
Game vs Cani: HOLY CRAP 46 WORKERS. You took a chance here investing 1200 minerals in an expansion before it started paying off (400 on base, 800 on 16 useless workers) and it actually was going OK... hell, you killed his drop pretty effectively.
Would have liked to see some zealots in this mix. If you can trap marauders that's pretty much it, and they free up gas.
You didn't have enough of an advantage to a-move up into his main. You could probably have done serious damage in his main if you'd controlled your army better... at this point, you should have moved to see if he had an expansion to kill, then sat your army in his natural while getting your main base back up. You could be really obnoxious by destroying his wall-in with colossus range - if he wants to move down to take on your army, you get a great arc around his ramp. You'd also get to kill units like this.
But the main goal here is to contain. By sitting outside his base, he can't drop *your* base with a substantial force or you'll go for the base trade. He also can't take on your army. Eventually your second base will get up and running, you'll get sick macro, and you'll pull further ahead. There's very little he can do in that situation.
Game vs Dadda: 47 workers! And you get your second base up this time, putting you so far ahead it's not even funny. How can you lose this one?
Oh, ok. You keep powering like crazy. You lose two colossi for free, and then you let your opponent get an OK concave on your stalkers while they shoot the vikings (which aren't even a threat). You could have moved your stalkers + immortal down to the right to get a good arc on his army, then - again - forcefielded in the middle so you could take on just part of it at a time.
Overall, my three biggest concerns here are:
1. You are powering slightly too hard in general. You're getting hit when you have two bases to defend (or two bases worth of probes) but no army advantage yet. Ease up on the probes and you'll simply have more units.
2. You're not using zealots. Stalkers are simply not cost effective against marauder-heavy bio, but zealots are so good! They do more damage to marauders than stalkers will, they're cheaper, they're *much* better in a straight up fight against marines, and they only take half as much damage from marauders. You obviously can't go mass zealots, but you need more in your mix and they have to be at the front, which leads me to:
3. Your army control is horrible. Work on flanking/getting concaves, kiting, moving your colossi properly, using forcefields effectively, scouting with cheap units, retreating fully when necessary... the goal is always to take on part of his army with all of yours, whereas you always seem to feed your enemy chunks of your forces to destroy one at a time. If you're having special trouble with MMM, it's perhaps because MMM is so mobile... but improve your army control and you'll do much better against everything.
Here's a replay from a match I played earlier today:
http://randomnine.wootfu.com/junk/games/sc2/PvT vs bio.SC2Replay
I know this guy's pretty bad, but it's the best I've got - I've been busy with single player and I've only just played my placement matches :p Sorry. Still, perhaps it will help convince you that a little less investment in economy early on, more zealots, and seizing positional advantages in battles can help you in these games.
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infinity21
Canada6683 Posts
On August 08 2010 10:11 blabber wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2010 10:05 infinity21 wrote:On August 08 2010 09:55 blabber wrote:On August 08 2010 09:20 Kurdaj wrote:
How is it Protoss can be balanced, even overpowered sub-Diamond, but then in Diamond, becomes the retard step-child? in Diamond, people are better at making units and mashing d Maybe if you guys stopped doing 4 gate warp prism rushes ^_^ just me experimenting different all-ins on Steppes of War... kinda pointless to try to play macro game on that map when you take 2 steps and you're at my natural
haha just teasing. I do think mech is really strong on that map. Pretty accessible 3rd and short rush distance where I can just siege below your nat away from zealots. If you blink in, I can just PDD and kill all your stalkers.
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One points to massively improve your win rate vs terran
Make more zealots and cut back on Stalkers.
The second you realize that Stalkers just aren't awesome vs terran, is the second you'll start having an easier time.
Also, get charge
This is coming from a terran player.
So when going more zealot heavy, you won't have so much AA, so you should favor HT's over Colossi since Vikings kill Colossi so easy.
And don't underestimate the power of 1 or 2 immortals, if you do a 3gate robo push, you need them to take out bunkers and they destroy marauders
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On August 08 2010 09:10 Brees wrote:
congralutations you have discovered how broken terran is at the moment. now go play them.
I, like you, enjoyed playing protoss until I got to diamond. then I never won another game as P.
this is totally not true.. a lot of players get lamed by early terran infantry because they don't make any sentries or just one or two (not enough!).
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@randomnine: wow, that was a great post! I agree 100%. The point with the workercount is true, but I usually aim for 66+ overall worker for 2 bases. 2fully saturated bases and when my main is mined out there usually is some gas left to gather. Anything higher than that is ineffective but maybe I lose some in a fight or something. In the other matchups I feel way safer to expand but vs terran I still power probes but Iam not confident enough to expand, wich is indeed a serious problem that leads to inefficiency.
And my control... I know its bad
Again, I never played a rts game competitively before, and this is indeed the hardest of the mechanics to get for me. I made space for 3 armyslots in my controlgroupsetup, but I simply never make use of it because I feel extremely uncomfortable with my army splitted this way. I guess I will have to work on this 
but now Iam going to watch your replay and then I will go to bed, because its 04:15am in germany :D
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On August 08 2010 11:15 DennyR wrote:@randomnine: wow, that was a great post! I agree 100%. The point with the workercount is true, but I usually aim for 66+ overall worker for 2 bases. 2fully saturated bases and when my main is mined out there usually is some gas left to gather. Anything higher than that is ineffective but maybe I lose some in a fight or something. In the other matchups I feel way safer to expand but vs terran I still power probes but Iam not confident enough to expand, wich is indeed a serious problem that leads to inefficiency. And my control... I know its bad Again, I never played a rts game competitively before, and this is indeed the hardest of the mechanics to get for me. I made space for 3 armyslots in my controlgroupsetup, but I simply never make use of it because I feel extremely uncomfortable with my army splitted this way. I guess I will have to work on this but now Iam going to watch your replay and then I will go to bed, because its 04:15am in germany :D
You need about 30 workers max per base. You should make a bit more though if you think you will be taking another expansion really soon. 3 per resource patch.
Protoss is a really micro intensive race, so I understand what you feel like. If you don't like the micro intensity, and you still really want to play Protoss, try playing games, and not attacking until you can comfortably attack move into his base.
I think the problem with micro is that marauder concussive shells really shuts down most movement. But control groups are really useful, and actually fun to use.
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I watched game 1. You were kind of behind after you lost a bunch of units needlessly to his first push since your units were out of position. You also needlessly lost 2 observers, the first of which you really didnt need to build at all, because you already saw the 3 raxes. Your army was just too small after these losses. Also I think you need a few zealots to take marauder fire in your unit composition.
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Glad I could help. Here's another replay from this morning that shows a longer game:
http://randomnine.wootfu.com/junk/games/sc2/PvT bs bio 2.SC2Replay
I'm not super comfortable putting these replays up, since I know I'm making mistakes, and my opponents aren't that good either ^_^; but I hope how I'm tackling situations in these games might give you some ideas, at least.
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Ehrm, Chargelots + Colossus? Perhaps some Phoenix to mob up fleeing medivacs.
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Instead of stalkers, I use lots of sentries. Early game, I invest in 1 or 2 immortals. I think that this investment is really invaluable because in combination with your zealots, the immortals take down the marauders really fast.
Once I hold off the push, I tech to colossi and then push out. The sentries are pretty capable of taking out the vikings. Also, what they do is manage the terran ball. If all of the marines and marauders are bunched up, it means: A. There isn't a very good concave, and that means not all of the units are doing damage at the same time. B. It protects your colossi. C. prevents them from stim-kiting your zealots.
If your opponent is play passively, move out as soon as you get your 2 immortals.
If you aren't aggressive enough, you give the T too much leeway to build up a big army.
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stalker > voidray.
/endthread
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I'd probably only get immortals if the terran is going for lots of tanks. You can get an early immortal to help defend against a Marauder rush if you think that's what he's doing, and that's it. They die too fast against marines otherwise. IMHO immortals are more of a late-game unit, or if you want to drop them.
Gold here, however, so take what I say with a healthy dose of salt.
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I played Protoss in beta and was frustrated by MM and now i play Terran so while I can't watch the replays right now I can offer what I do know.
Stalkers just aren't that scary since marauders kill them so easily. You need a few but they can't be the overwhelming part of your army you want more zealots. Force fields are just nasty when used well. If the MM ball gets split early to mid game it is very easy for the Terran to lose. Later game it isn't quite as bad.
Psi storm when used well is very hard to counter as Terran, Colossus are only scary if I don't have time to get out vikings. I've never lost the micro battle when I had vikings+MM and he had colossi+gateways, I can always just attack from a flank with the vikings and take down the colossi before the stalkers can take down the vikings.
Void Rays never seem to bother me, early I usually have plenty of marines to deal with them. Later marine+vikings eat them up. The one thing they are useful for is to pose a threat when sitting right outside my base so I have to leave marines behind or waste resources on towers. I guess what I'm saying is if you are gonig to build the VR make sure you don't lose them. Just the threat of the VR is powerful enough to make me modify my game because i don't know if you added a 2nd or 3rd VR so I have to assume you did.
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Void Rays never seem to bother me,
Just the threat of the VR is powerful enough to make me modify my game because i don't know if you added a 2nd or 3rd VR so I have to assume you did.
That's exactly what the toss wants you to do, so it seems they do bother you
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On August 09 2010 00:05 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +
Just the threat of the VR is powerful enough to make me modify my game because i don't know if you added a 2nd or 3rd VR so I have to assume you did.
That's exactly what the toss wants you to do, so it seems they do bother you
Sure. But the Toss that come in and actually attack with the VR until I kill it just don't bother me at all. I'm not afraid of losing a game to early VR or anything, in fact I struggle to figure out how T outright loses to VR in general(enough people complain about them that somebody must lose tot hem!). They can delay me some early game so they can tech up and/or expand which makes them useful for the Protoss player obviously.
The big point from all of that was just make sure the VR doesn't die! Even if you can't do any damage with it having it sitting out there alive is going to bug me more than killing a supply depot and losing the VR or something.
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again thanks for your help guys. The voidraything.. I am looking for a solid build and the voidray isnt viable on maps like SoW, its more like a coinflip allinish build. Sometimes you win right away, you can fastexpand while the voidray is on work, but I dont like the feeling of having a voidray and 4groundunits that carry you to midgame.
I watched mTwNightend vs mouzMorrow on Xel Naga Caverns a second ago and Nightend opened 2gate robo with zealot/sentry and one single stalker very passively. He rushed for charge and psistorm and made it. (I will link the replay if they upload it)
I will give this a try, because I love to play chargelots+storm mid-lategame way more than colossi.
Do you have any experience in 2gate robo straight into tech? I mean is staying at 2 gates and dont produce immortals a good idea on small rushdistances?
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I'd say that sentries really are key against early bio-stim pushes. In the first game you knew from your scouting what he was going for. Just have a probe or two out in the field to see when he comes and get your sentries ready to forcefield the ramp should the terran try to push up. I personally find it very scary to push up a protoss ramp that early since you are risking to get your army cut in two when trying to move up the ramp. Stimming is also dangerous if you are denied by forcefields with no healing available, you can only really stim once that early on.
As alot of people has already said zealots are very effective against marauders, and I'd say you do have time to tech to chargelots or colossi or HTs until he gets his medivacs since he can't push up your ramp. When your armies finally engage, split his army in two with forcefields! That is really devastating to a bioball and it gives you a huge advantage. Good forcefields are a real game-winner. And as people yet again has pointed out, pick your battles, try to lure him into thin areas where you can split his armies with forcefields and don't attack where he has an advantage.
Just my two cents
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Beginning to think opening blindly into buttloads of Chargelots and blindly expanding is the way to beat these guys. There's just no fucking way to scout and play reactively against an aggressive Terran.. Just have to take it up the tailpipe if they rush Banshees with Cloak. Banshee harass is workable, but massing the things with Cloak is going to be the end of you.
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Well you saw he was going 1/1/1 so you could expand...the importance of keeping the scout alive! Obviously if you do that against mass rax it's gg.
Very very very few terrans are going to make enough banshees to counter your usual stalker #s anyway, so rushing charge blind isn't a bad idea. All strategies have downsides/opportunity costs etc anyway.
GJ slaying those dirty Terrans ^^
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On August 08 2010 10:28 blabber wrote:
void rays are bad vs 3rax strategy imo because marines can easily take down your void rays and you're not going to have enough units to do enough dps to kill the terran army without the medivacs instantly healing everything. Also if they have medivacs there isn't anything stopping them from pumping out a few vikings. See this is one of the big problems with Terran in my eyes. They take one tech path and they can get pretty much every single Terran unit, and all are effective. Protoss players have to go Robo and/or Stargate and/or Twilight Council. In BW it wasn't much of a problem because only factory units were viable in most games...
Void rays are extremely useful against terran, but they are not meant to be built to kill anything but rather to back your terran opponent into a corner. I only use 1 or 2 void rays in a match purely as a harass, this forces him into building anti air armies/bases, marines, vikings etc, it's a type of control you have over him, also they will be hesitant to expand.
Use your void ray to fly in and out of his base and attack his SCV's or charge up on a refinery first, as soon he attacks you move away, wait a few moments and get straight back in, imagine how annoying this is for the terran.
He can't just ignore the threat from the void otherwise it will take out the whole base, and most likely he will overreact to the threat and most likely build a heavy marine army, now all you have to do is keep harassing and build an army to counter all his marines, GG.
(Try and find some WhiteRA replays on youtube, he uses void ray harass a lot when playing terran, you'll see how the strategy works).
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On August 09 2010 03:11 Yaotzin wrote:
Well you saw he was going 1/1/1 so you could expand...the importance of keeping the scout alive! Obviously if you do that against mass rax it's gg.
Very very very few terrans are going to make enough banshees to counter your usual stalker #s anyway, so rushing charge blind isn't a bad idea. All strategies have downsides/opportunity costs etc anyway.
GJ slaying those dirty Terrans ^^
Expanding against 1/1/1 is a huge trap. A good terran will immediately go into marine/tank/raven and push you at around 80 supply. With PDD, shield/stim marines and tanks, you don't have a chance.
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On August 09 2010 03:16 0mar wrote:
Expanding against 1/1/1 is a huge trap. A good terran will immediately go into marine/tank/raven and push you at around 80 supply. With PDD, shield/stim marines and tanks, you don't have a chance.
I just meant it wasn't totally suicidal as it would be against mass rax. A gamble that could well come off if you will.
Doesn't White-Ra often expand against 1/1/1?
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1) Open thread with guy calling other ppl noobs and saying race is imbalanced.
2) Open 3rd replay
3) See how most of the game the other player was actualy producing more units the whole time, and could have finished the game very early
4) Later see guy sending 2 colossus into the main army of the other player while backing the rest of the army
5) Think about 1)
6) Laugh hard
7) Go register and respond to thread by typing lol
lol
Also to all the ppl QQing about terran go watch "King of Beta" and HDH. Protip: No terran in the finals
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I am having these same problems and agree that the immortal rarely makes cost vs T..
Templar & storm are SUPER EFFECTIVE though, and the low HP of terran units makes colossus dominate if you can clear out the vikings & missle turrets
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On August 09 2010 03:16 0mar wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2010 03:11 Yaotzin wrote:
Well you saw he was going 1/1/1 so you could expand...the importance of keeping the scout alive! Obviously if you do that against mass rax it's gg.
Very very very few terrans are going to make enough banshees to counter your usual stalker #s anyway, so rushing charge blind isn't a bad idea. All strategies have downsides/opportunity costs etc anyway.
GJ slaying those dirty Terrans ^^ Expanding against 1/1/1 is a huge trap. A good terran will immediately go into marine/tank/raven and push you at around 80 supply. With PDD, shield/stim marines and tanks, you don't have a chance.
The 1/1/1 Push is far away from Freewin against Robo->2Gate into Expand. Your Raven and therefore the investment into Starport is useless if Protoss does not even produce more than 1 Stalker and Immortals + Heavy Zealot + GS works well against Marines + Tanks and btw i doubt you will get Stim AND Combat Shield AND a decent amount of Marines in time.
On August 09 2010 04:20 Alexstrasas wrote:
lol
So you registered just to "lol" about OP? If you would be temp banned for that I would "lol" about the irony.
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Defending against 1-base all-in MMM is pretty hard in the early game, especially if the attack comes before you can get storm or colossi out. The only real way to combat it is sentries with force field.
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On August 09 2010 04:42 Xanatoss wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2010 03:16 0mar wrote:On August 09 2010 03:11 Yaotzin wrote:
Well you saw he was going 1/1/1 so you could expand...the importance of keeping the scout alive! Obviously if you do that against mass rax it's gg.
Very very very few terrans are going to make enough banshees to counter your usual stalker #s anyway, so rushing charge blind isn't a bad idea. All strategies have downsides/opportunity costs etc anyway.
GJ slaying those dirty Terrans ^^ Expanding against 1/1/1 is a huge trap. A good terran will immediately go into marine/tank/raven and push you at around 80 supply. With PDD, shield/stim marines and tanks, you don't have a chance. The 1/1/1 Push is far away from Freewin against Robo->2Gate into Expand. Your Raven and therefore the investment into Starport is useless if Protoss does not even produce more than 1 Stalker and Immortals + Heavy Zealot + GS works well against Marines + Tanks and btw i doubt you will get Stim AND Combat Shield AND a decent amount of Marines in time. So you registered just to "lol" about OP? If you would be temp banned for that I would "lol" about the irony.
What is there more to say? Ppl are just jumping in the OMFG OP bandwagon yet completly missing the point that OP lost those matches because of bad gameplay and not game imbalances, and in a very bland and obvious way
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0 Protoss players in the top 5 of the Korean 1v1 ladder.
2 Protoss players in the top 20.
Protoss needs a nerf, man. They shouldn't even be able to crack top 50 on any ladder.
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On August 09 2010 05:14 Alexstrasas wrote:
What is there more to say? Ppl are just jumping in the OMFG OP bandwagon yet completly missing the point that OP lost those matches because of bad gameplay and not game imbalances.
Actually OP did not even lose a word about imbalance. He is well aware of the fact, that his gameplay is lacking, but also aware of the fact, that his opponents were not that good, what makes it even more suspicious to him, that he lost.
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because you are noob yourself ?
User was warned for this post
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Just to anwser the ongoing chat quickly. Yes I am bad, but Iam working hard to change this. Losing to noobs usually means Iam even worse and I know this, thats why I started this topic.
I just asked why I keep losing against terrans that dont even scout. dont use controlgroups or dont expand even if their main is mined out for 10mins while I crush these guys in PvP or PvZ.
I never said a single word about terran was overpowered or about imbalance in general.
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I love you OP, you're trying everything to win this matchup and doesnt say a word about terran being OP, which won't help you at all. So annoying when people write "terran are op" and make that the only reason why they lose, they act like the win:loss in this mu is 80:20:S I cant watch the replays here, ill do it when i get home.
edit: watched the third replay- His bio had a lot of marines, why no storm? That would have demolished him there, he had nowhere to run up there. Of course, losing your 2 collossi like that is really painfull, they didn't get single shot of.. besides that, the position wasn't all that good either, he had a nice concave while only half of your army was shooting. Seems like you could have won that battle even without storm, if you had positioned yourself better and didn't lose those 2 collossi (Ofc he had vikings out but when you keep em away from bio' focus fire they stay alive just long enough to do massive dmg, espcially against marines without combat shield(lol)).
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On August 09 2010 03:11 Yaotzin wrote:
Well you saw he was going 1/1/1 so you could expand...the importance of keeping the scout alive! Obviously if you do that against mass rax it's gg.
Very very very few terrans are going to make enough banshees to counter your usual stalker #s anyway, so rushing charge blind isn't a bad idea. All strategies have downsides/opportunity costs etc anyway.
GJ slaying those dirty Terrans ^^
I did? The second Probe scout going in at around 4:30 barely got a glimpse of a second building going up and I couldn't tell it was a factory because it looks identical to a Barracks for the first 30ish seconds of construction. I had to rewind it a couple of times, after switching it to just my vision, just to be able to click it and see what it actually was. Definitely wasn't something that factored into the game itself. I just got Charge, plopped down an expansion and hoped. I was literally blind to what he was doing for around 10 minutes.
Is there some obvious indicator of a 1/1/1 build I'm not aware of? Early double-gas could have just as easily been a Marine/Ghost push, like the other replay. They both had two gas up around the 4minute mark. In both games, all I know is he's got a Barracks, and is collecting Gas for some purpose...that's pretty standard.
I'm going to give it a few more goes and see if its possible to hold off various bio timing pushes and deal with harassment. I'm thinking a Phoenix or two would be a logical followup, for a scout and a Banshee/Medivac drop killer.
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In game 1 - why did you move off your ramp when you KNEW he was down by your natural?
The best way to gain an advantage over terran timing pushes is to cut their army in half on your ramp. There was really no reason at all for you to go "hunting" for him...
Also, I might be wrong about this but I think your expo timing was not so great. You knew he was 1base MMMing you, and you knew that overall you had lost more units from engagements throughout the game... You were at a disadvantage, he just stayed on 1base... pumped more units... and that's game.
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I think that protoss players often go about using their early voids in the wrong way. I am a terran player myself and have been since the first day I got beta. The most effective use of voidrays ive seen is actually using them on the terrans wall off. Which will allow you to charge up on supply/barracks, open yourself up a path for your gateway units to push in and then your void ray becomes far more effective.
If they have a bunker, queue it up after first supply depot with your void and attack with gateway units when the supply pops. Bunker will go down instantly. Keep reinforcing with zealots if your attack is going well etc.
On August 09 2010 02:38 Bibdy wrote:
Beginning to think opening blindly into buttloads of Chargelots and blindly expanding is the way to beat these guys. There's just no fucking way to scout and play reactively against an aggressive Terran.. Just have to take it up the tailpipe if they rush Banshees with Cloak. Banshee harass is workable, but massing the things with Cloak is going to be the end of you.
This is one of the reasons I always scan when I get my starport up. No robo = cloaking. Robo = fast raven.
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On August 09 2010 04:20 Alexstrasas wrote:
1) Open thread with guy calling other ppl noobs and saying race is imbalanced.
2) Open 3rd replay
3) See how most of the game the other player was actualy producing more units the whole time, and could have finished the game very early
4) Later see guy sending 2 colossus into the main army of the other player while backing the rest of the army
5) Think about 1)
6) Laugh hard
7) Go register and respond to thread by typing lol
lol
Also to all the ppl QQing about terran go watch "King of Beta" and HDH. Protip: No terran in the finals
QFT
lol
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Watching the first game, no Robotics Bay at all. You had excess minerals sitting around, after the expo went up, perfect time for a Robotics Bay.
Next time, I'd recommend going one base, getting sentries to prevent stim rushes with force field and quick teching to Collosi.
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420 Diamond P here and I have won about 8 of my last 10 games so on a roll atm for what its worth.
I was having big trouble with terran infantry up until a week ago but now find it possibly my best matchup.
You need to set the pace with the terran player and dictate what he builds.
Check Gnial's PvT stalker-void ray opener - it's great.
Basically you chrono 2 stalkers asap from 2 gateways and send them to his ramp to poke around. If he has marines, reapers or SCV's in range kill them. Once there are none of them in range, start picking off any supply depo's or barracks that is in range. If he has a maurauder out shoot at it until your stalker loses its shields then retreat the weakened stalker.
While this is going on you should be macroing up in your base and depending on his composition either continue with stalkers (marine heavy) or lay down a stargate and chrono out some void rays (maurauder heavy).
The key is not to lose your void rays or stalkers if you can help it and keep him contained. If he messes up its game over.
At this point my approach diverges with Gnial's.
Provided the terran has handled it well, while maintaining the contain or retreating if neccesary. If there is a threat of maurauders overunning my stalkers I will lay down a robo bay and pump a few quick immortals and expo if I feel I can hold it off. From here a transition to 2x robo bay producing collosus on 2 base and attack as soon as I have about 4 along with several immortals left over from earlier, some stalkers, sentries and quite a few zealots to put up front as meatshields.
Obviously depending on the situation things may change, but this approach is quite good.
The key with collosus is you need to attack him before he can maintain a large ground army AND get a large viking force.
I expect at some level higher than my own, this won't work so well anymore, but anywhere up to mid diamond it works great.
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If you don't mind being weak to air, go 2x robo, 2x gate(I don't even get a robo bay). Double immortal push with zealots and stalkers tears up marauders and isn't bad vs marines either. I loved this build in beta. Since its offensive as soon as you get an immortal, you push, they'll typically defend with air if they have it, and then you switch to stalkers+ cannon up your main/expo+ switch tech to high templar and go for a long game.
An added bonus is that Immortal rock buildings too.
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There's one plain and simple answer to the OP's question... you are making almost nothing but Armored units, and then facing large groups of marauders (which do double damage to armored). This means you lose.
OP needs many more zealots in his army.
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I haven't seen the replays but I didn't see anybody mention anything about High templars. Zealot/stalker/sentry/collosus/templar is pretty good for the bio ball of Terran. Make sure you get the charge upgrade so the zealots rush into the ball for meat sheilds and get some good storms off.
If anything you can use storm to buy time to get a bigger army. I just know that whenever I go 3 rax marauder/marine if I saw a group of 3 or so high templar I start shaking in my boots.
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Easiest way to beat terran bio w/o any direct counters is high templar storm. The best and most effective unit vs terran is the HT and here is why.
1. No counter. Dont start now with the classic "Oh i cant build HT cuz i get emp stomped!". That should never happen with really basic usage of protoss scouting abilities. Always keep your maphack observer near their army. Not on the army...not patroling around their army so they can see it ..just standing near. Always attack first dont be on the defense. There is no way for the T to react fast enough if you attack first. If you see his ghosts with the observer get 1-2 temps in front of your army and shift+feedback all of them.
2. Storm cant really be dodged. It looks like they dodged but they really didnt. If they want to move fast enough out of storm they have to stim (-10 hp). If they dont stim chargelots get freeshots on them. So either way storm does the damage.
3. Instant base defense with teh khay(wutever) amulet thingy that gets HTs storm ready on warp in. You got 2 medivacs chock full of marines droped in ur base? no problem...warp in 2 HTs insta-storm him and feed back the medivacs just for loughs. Still 1-2 rines/marauders left? No worries morph them into an archon.
4. Contrary to popular belief archons are pretty decent units. After your temps run out of energy just morph them into big balls of psionic energy and splash T bio armies with ~30 dmg wohooo.
Diamond ~300 pts terran player ftw.
PS
I really have no ideea how to beat this combo...and by beat i mean build some shit and rolfstomp them - like imortals vs marauders, colosus vs rines, hts vs bio balls, charged voidroids vs anything,pheonix vs tanks and stuff like that.
Toss has so many ways to rolfstomp a terran that it isnt even funny sometimes. U say rines kill fast vrays? Ok true but what can rines do vs the chargelots that should come with the ray. So many unit combos and so many effective strategies in the toss arsenal. You just hava to look at pro replays and stuff like that.
Im not saying that the matchup is imbalanced in any way. But a terran player should always feel like he is fighting an uphill battle vs a toss.
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hi Denny,
I feel that the major issue is that you are losing far too much units to mis micro. While it is true that stalkers / immortals dont fare incredibly well against the MMM ball, they should not be suffering 3:1 army loss ratios as evident at the end of your last game. A few posters have already highlighted the colossus mismicro + attacking at a horrible angle + lack of army pop. IMO That army you had was more than enough to win that engagement.
But another thing is the lack of aggression in your play. When you first spotted his dropships, you should have allowed/waited for them to begin disembarking and immediately engage with forcefields, instead you cramped up your army in all the way on the edge, revealing yourself and wasting a great opportunity. You also did not do anything useful with that warp prism at the bottom, just warping in anything into an opponent's main base as he is about to engage is usually enough to throw his micro off. It... almost seems as if you are trying to turtle... or playing a singleplayer mission, trying to get as much minerals as possible...
IMH experience, if you wish to adopt such a passive stance, I would advise expanding at 50 (3 gate 1 robo) and transiting into 2 stargate void rays / DTs and do harassing while leaving yr main initial force behind. It would put you in much better stead since you clearly have issues when engaging on a larger scale.
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Kyrgyz Republic1462 Posts
It's beyond me why some people insist calling people they are losing to noobs. If they win without blatant cheese, surely they do something better than you? I think you need something more that just better macro to consider yourself better than them.
To answer your question though, you build too many workers (if you're staying at one base ~30 is enough), you lose units unnecessarily and you have inefficient unit composition and positioning.
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I am fighting with exact the same problem. I've lost a lot to PvT in the last days. And I tried nearly everything of the above mentioned. Heres my experience from silver league.
With proper scouting it is rather easy to detect the 3 Rax Build. My opponents normally didn't care very much about Medivacs, but focused on Macro and constantly and rapidly build up a force of mixed Marine and Marauders. Some neglect Marauders completely, others have a more 50/50 approach.
While it is true, that only a handful of HT can wreck havoc on this bio ball I had never the chance to get out enough of them with proper energy to fight. I didn't have the time to get to the Tier 4 unit, not talking about having the necessary upgrades for them (Storm + Amulett).
By the time where they can amass around 30-35 Marines you nowhere near an appropriate army to counter that.
Same is with Colossus and Chargelots. The Tech costs too much time and ressources (With Chargelots even more, since you need also Twilight Council + Charge) . So you are left with say 2 Colossus, and a handful of each Zealots and Stalkers which is not enough to deal with the incoming forces.
Also VR are not helping really, since VR + gate units is too weak and VR in addition to Mech or HT costs even more ressources. Maybe the harrassing power of VR can be exploited, but if your opponent's micro is not too bad, he can deal with it very easily.
From my point of view you definitely need Sentries to block ramp or choke and buy you time for either HT or Collosus. Sentries also can help you to seperate their army to fight it with your inferior forces.
Edit: One more reason for Sentries is the Shield ability that reduces incoming damage by 2 which is a huge 33% loss for the Marines.
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Don't underestimate voidrays. They are great for harassing terran and zerg at the start of the game. You dont even have to do much damage (although you usually do). 1-3 early voids force marines and hydra. I anticipate this by fast expoing and throwing down 2 robo and pumping collosus and crush them. For this to work you need to constantly harass with your voids(s).
To the silver player above, it will make sense when you play more and improve.
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you're losing to 'noobs'.. what does that make you?
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On August 09 2010 03:16 0mar wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2010 03:11 Yaotzin wrote:
Well you saw he was going 1/1/1 so you could expand...the importance of keeping the scout alive! Obviously if you do that against mass rax it's gg.
Very very very few terrans are going to make enough banshees to counter your usual stalker #s anyway, so rushing charge blind isn't a bad idea. All strategies have downsides/opportunity costs etc anyway.
GJ slaying those dirty Terrans ^^ Expanding against 1/1/1 is a huge trap. A good terran will immediately go into marine/tank/raven and push you at around 80 supply. With PDD, shield/stim marines and tanks, you don't have a chance.
It's kind of risky, but if your expansion kicks in you'll have enough income to run 8-9 gateways. If I see fast tech from the Terran, I always put my expansion down after 2-3 stalkers (unless the positions are really close, in which case I tech hard to chargelots). In order to counter any fast Banshee build, I'll get a forge and put a cannon at each mineral line while getting a head start on armor upgrades.
They key in this matchup is chargelots and storm. If you go for collossus, you better hide the tech so as not to let the terran counter you too quick. For me, the collossus is a good way to insure you win the first few skirmishes and to keep your expansion, but after that you should switch to templars because a group of vikings will be able to snipe the collossi very fast before your stalkers can kill them.
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i have the same problem. but the only thing i try to do, is not take it to the late-game. i try to end it as fast as possible, before he gets the medivacs. ive tried most of the suggestions, to no avail. maybe i suck or maybe terran is imba xD but the 3xm is a killer!
im a diamond-player, btw.
edit; i usually go 2gate,robo,gate and pump out sentries and stalkers and go for the attack when i have 2 immortals. if i break through, i just keep sending stalkers and making immortals.
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I agree with Ranak, I was stuck in platinum for a while because I just couldn't reliably deal with Terran.
The turnaround came from fast stalker opening. Opening up with 2-3 chrono'd stalkers and then starting a fast mid game transition (usually chargelot/templar) on one base until you get some breathing space.
Those two stalkers buy you the time you need to get your tech up and running before the inevitable doompush. I was surprised by it actually, I though two stalkers will get caned. But against most plat, low diamond terrans they wall in with depots and build few maurauders v. early on. You can snipe his marines with impunity, and then take out a supply depot.
All without losing a stalker. As soon as he gets conc shells or a couple maurauders pull-out.
But you've just bought yourself a critical amount of time.
You *need* a solid BO to pull this off though, it's all about timing.
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If they beat you than either they're not noobs or you are a bigger noob and shouldn't call them noobs.
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I've found the most effective strategy against T is to get a quick stargate to VR harass, into a 3 gate with chargelots and sentrys, while continuing to produce VRs. gate->core->star->gate->gate->tc. Normally by the time I have 3 VRs, my charge is complete and I pull my VRs from harassing to join my chargelots and sentries in a push. I just started using this strat recently and it has gotten me so many wins even against better players than myself.
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If you play and loose to noobs... well you are doing something wrong and by what i've seen, it is Macro and bad decision making when you push!!! Against bad players you only need to get ''more stuff'' then them!
I've encounter this problem (p vs MMM) against relatively good players (low diamond/high plat) and when I scout the MMM, and see he's going to push me, I always delay my expansion!!! this may look bad because zealots/templar(amulet+storm)/colossi is very expansive and gas starving but if I don't get to spend all the money I have at THE EXACTE MOMENT I scout this, well i'm screwd because MMM is so cheaper and can be reinforced way faster!!!
If you held the first push, make a contain while scouting and expand the fastest you can!!!
... but again, that has been working for me... but i'm not that good of a player so.... take it the way you want
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zealots in front are actually extremely effective with stalkers focusing medivacs indirectly does huge damage to the main army. with one or two colossus in back the ball seems to melt away
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Ok, First off, I am not claiming to be good because I'm not. I did not play beta and I am still learning. However, I am about 600 diamond, #3 in my league and 50 in SEA so I don't think I "suck". However, like the OP, I am having SERIOUS problems vs terran. I've lost 18 out of my last 19 matches vs terran. I know exactly what they are going to do because they ALL do the same thing. They mix marauders and marines and push early, this first push I can handle. The problem is when they get 3-6 tanks + air support and medivacs, I am dead. I have tried a large variety of unit composition and I consistently out macro my opponent (get and spend far more minerals on units and upgrades) but it always goes the same. His anti air and/or tanks take out my cols and temps faster than my stalkers can take them out. My slots fall to quickly to the range attacks and the stalkers seem a complete waste against marauders and tanks.
The reason I am frustrated with this is because I KNOW what they are doing and I can't stop it. I don't scout terrans at all anymore because in the last 20-30 games vs terran, all except 1 or 2 have done the exact same bo. I don't want to say that terran is op atm but it certainly feels that way to me.
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As a diamond terran player, I have found that protoss going 2 gate robo is rather safe from almost all harass early (you have your observer to slow down banshee harass, 1 immortal to deal with any kinda early tank push) but you needa have a good follow up that isnt collosus, collosus is way too easy to take out, all you need is like 5 stimmed marauders and they can suicide into the stalkers if they want to take out the collosus, it takes alot longer to build collosus number up than it is to reinforce MM. I would suggest going more gateway heavy and zeal/temp (and immortal if the game goes a bit longer because the terran should really be getting a good number of tanks to support his bio ball). and o you need a fair few observers, DO NOT SKIMP ON OBSERVER NUMBERS! need about 2 going around near your army and a couple just to check on him why you might ask... cloaked ghost ruin your day.
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Make a better thread title. It sickens me to see someone refer to 'noobs' as people who beat them, then claim that they are not bad.
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On August 10 2010 15:15 wackedupwacko wrote:
As a diamond terran player, I have found that protoss going 2 gate robo is rather safe from almost all harass early (you have your observer to slow down banshee harass, 1 immortal to deal with any kinda early tank push) but you needa have a good follow up that isnt collosus, collosus is way too easy to take out, all you need is like 5 stimmed marauders and they can suicide into the stalkers if they want to take out the collosus, it takes alot longer to build collosus number up than it is to reinforce MM. I would suggest going more gateway heavy and zeal/temp (and immortal if the game goes a bit longer because the terran should really be getting a good number of tanks to support his bio ball). and o you need a fair few observers, DO NOT SKIMP ON OBSERVER NUMBERS! need about 2 going around near your army and a couple just to check on him why you might ask... cloaked ghost ruin your day.
How to use the immortals effectively? Seems like they just targets my immortals with stimmed marines and it goes down quickly.
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I've only tried this twice so far, so maybe you guys can try it and see if it makes sense.
I got for a modified korean-style 4warp gate attack. I proxy pylon outside T base and warp in stalkers (i keep probes on gas vs T). I move up the ramp and see whats going on. Most likely, you would have already been scouted and they know they got a 4gate push coming. Since you probably can't move in, back off and take your expansion keep warping in a few units and build more probes. Throw down a Robo right away for observer and then 2-3 Immortals. Now, throw down 2 stargates (hide it as best you can and pump out void rays. Use your extra minerals on zealots.
You're main army will probably get scanned and he'll see a normal gateway mix + immortals, looks normal at the moment. He'll probably take an expo too. If T doesn't move out, just keep massing the void rays, once you get a critical number which depends on how marine heavy his army is, you can either move out with your ground army and void rays together. Your ground force will most likely get eaten up pretty fast, but your void rays should survive and if you have a decent number, its GG! You should at the very least try to take out their expo, then just sit back, macro and you should be fine with that kind of advantage.
Of course, you have to keep your void rays hidden. If you want, try hiding your stargates somewhere else on the map.
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Marine, Marauder is unstoppable, especially with stimpack and medivacs. The only true way to counter something like that is to micro your units around enough. I love blink on stalkers because on zealot rushes I can just focus down all their zealots. Your army compositions are great. Though having more zealots to cushion the attacks are a must, even if they die quickly they divert attention fast giving your stalkers and immortals more time to pump out as many shots as they can. So always try having enough zealots in your army even if you pretty much run them to their death. Also, this may sound dumb but it works, units can get trapped between sentry's shields so whenever I can get a shot, I usually drop it all over mass marines, is sorta effective when I'm desperate. I'm a silver 1v1 though so don't take it all 100%, this is just from my experience.
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Unless I do a very aggressive 4gate build and immediately win the game I can't seem to beat an equally skilled Terran. I feel like I have to micro my units 100x better to beat an equal cost army.
Most of the time I can't even expand before I instantly lose to MM + tanks 1a'ing into my base.
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I don't know if this is said between the 5 pages but let me emphasize collosus. With range upgrade they steam roll anything that is bio and hell they destroy tanks also. The collosus is your bestest friend in the whole world. I am a Protoss Diamond as well and I've played against players atm who are 600-800 range. PvT is not broken its just that most players atm are not using collosus properly against terran. Try a 1 base 3 gate 1 robo collosus build. I promise you once you get it down your PvT loss days are over
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You don't have to have a *great* deal of micro with protoss imo.
Versus Terran I usually go 3 gate > council > templar > gate then either add a robo or a bunch more gates if I get an expand up.
High Templar are the key, they are the only unit you need good control with.
If you use Zealot/Sentry/Stalker in group 1, your sentries are the first unit in the group for easy forcefields/guardian shields. Then have your HT in group 2 for easy stormage.
Save a little chrono boost for spamming it on Psionic Storm.
Usually you can defend the terran initial push with a good FF or two on your ramp, then you can either counter push if you think you can do enough damage or sit tight until you have 5-6 HT with storm. It comes along right about the time terran is thinking about going for that next attack.
If they aren't attacking they are probably expanding, throw up your own expand and slam down a bunch more gateways. 2 base protoss can easily spam down 8 Gateways no problems.
The ideal mix for this is about 15+ zealots, 6-8 sentries, 12+ stalkers and 6+ HT. (For a mid game army).
I had a LOT of trouble with this matchup too but the main problem is that early push with marauder concussion, if you are pro with forcefields its not too hard to take out. Just make sure you are constantly spamming units from your gateways you should have 4-5 zealots, 2-3 sentries and a couple of stalkers by the time that initial push arrives.
edit - oh and I didn't watch your replays but 2 gate 2 gas is a really nice build so you can pump a few sentries before the push arrives
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I don't have problem EARLY, I have problem LATE. I can survive the initial rush np. Usully with cols/temps I can handle the mid game push but I can't push back. Then late game they show up with a nice mix of units supporting mass marauders and I lose.
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Stalkers/sentries with critical mass collossi if you make it lategame vs bio ball MMM.
FF trap the marauders so they can't stim attack your collosi. Collosi will melt them without taking damage then.
This works best vs bio balls so seeing you have no problem early game but rather lategame.
I don't see what the problem is yet.
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On August 08 2010 08:36 DennyR wrote:first game on xel naga caverns. He actually isnt noob, but this is a good example how screwed I am against timingpushes wihtout aoe. Was there anything I could have done to win this game? Iam sure there is, but I dont see it
You can see that he made 1 marine and then a reactor. A double stalker opening would have completely raped this. (12 gate, 14 gas, 16 - cut probes until you build gate, cyber, pylon, when the cyber finishes you will have enough money for 2 chrono boosted stalkers)
Anyway you should have been much more aggressive. I can't stress enough how weak 1 marine -> reactor is.
Unit comp: you scouted the reactor with your stalker but couldn't see anything else, but then on your next warp cycle, you made more stalkers. That's not a good idea. In low numbers, stalkers pick marines apart, but in larger armies, marines are MUCH more cost effective. If you sense heavy low tech play, go for twilight council for zealot charge and stay alive with forcefields until it finishes.
Then move into HT since you already have twilight.
It's faster than you think and a decent timing within the game. He can't magically have THAT much MM and medivacs so early in the game; it's just not possible.
Replays:
(okay, I played really badly in both these replays, so don't laugh; 1) They are really old, I couldn't find any newer ones since I'm not in the habit of saving everything 2) I'm a random player, not a toss player)
http://www.filefront.com/17189603/Standard PvT.SC2Replay
http://www.filefront.com/17189604/pvt early mm.SC2Replay
btw I have a much more robust timing in TvP (remember I play random). If you research stim on the first tech lab and then conc shell at the second tech lab, you will have stim and conc shell at the same time around 7 mins; it hurts much more than these delayed MM attacks. These are pretty low level (I want to say mid plat)
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On August 10 2010 18:36 gdroxor wrote:
Unless I do a very aggressive 4gate build and immediately win the game I can't seem to beat an equally skilled Terran. I feel like I have to micro my units 100x better to beat an equal cost army.
Most of the time I can't even expand before I instantly lose to MM + tanks 1a'ing into my base.
Why is there always this assumption that you're equally skilled when you "can't seem to win"? What basis do you have for relative skill besides the fact that you are losing?
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On August 10 2010 22:42 cHuT.LoL wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2010 18:36 gdroxor wrote:
Unless I do a very aggressive 4gate build and immediately win the game I can't seem to beat an equally skilled Terran. I feel like I have to micro my units 100x better to beat an equal cost army.
Most of the time I can't even expand before I instantly lose to MM + tanks 1a'ing into my base. Why is there always this assumption that you're equally skilled when you "can't seem to win"? What basis do you have for relative skill besides the fact that you are losing?
If we both have equal cost armies on the tech available given the time elapsed, and tank/marine/marauder beats any combination of gateway units, how would you describe the situation? I highly doubt that most Terran players are inherently better than I for the sole reason that they play Terran.
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On August 11 2010 03:20 gdroxor wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2010 22:42 cHuT.LoL wrote:On August 10 2010 18:36 gdroxor wrote:
Unless I do a very aggressive 4gate build and immediately win the game I can't seem to beat an equally skilled Terran. I feel like I have to micro my units 100x better to beat an equal cost army.
Most of the time I can't even expand before I instantly lose to MM + tanks 1a'ing into my base. Why is there always this assumption that you're equally skilled when you "can't seem to win"? What basis do you have for relative skill besides the fact that you are losing? If we both have equal cost armies on the tech available given the time elapsed, and tank/marine/marauder beats any combination of gateway units, how would you describe the situation? I highly doubt that most Terran players are inherently better than I for the sole reason that they play Terran.
Equal cost armies doesn't mean they should turn out even; his army composition > yours; tanks+bio > pure gateway
if he has time to get out tanks you have time to get out a robo stargate or twilight council
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On August 11 2010 05:19 Pokedude1013 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2010 03:20 gdroxor wrote:On August 10 2010 22:42 cHuT.LoL wrote:On August 10 2010 18:36 gdroxor wrote:
Unless I do a very aggressive 4gate build and immediately win the game I can't seem to beat an equally skilled Terran. I feel like I have to micro my units 100x better to beat an equal cost army.
Most of the time I can't even expand before I instantly lose to MM + tanks 1a'ing into my base. Why is there always this assumption that you're equally skilled when you "can't seem to win"? What basis do you have for relative skill besides the fact that you are losing? If we both have equal cost armies on the tech available given the time elapsed, and tank/marine/marauder beats any combination of gateway units, how would you describe the situation? I highly doubt that most Terran players are inherently better than I for the sole reason that they play Terran. Equal cost armies doesn't mean they should turn out even; his army composition > yours; tanks+bio > pure gateway if he has time to get out tanks you have time to get out a robo stargate or twilight council
Getting out a robo/stargate/TC means I get run over by a superior ground force, regardless. I have yet to find a way to build less than 3 gateways and not instantly lose to the first or second push by a competent Terran.
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Zealots are pure death. Chargelots are superb vs T in general, they make marauders&tanks Much less threatening
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I need help, I'm a diamond terran (rank 7) and I need help from another terran player, if you know how to stop 2 gate proxy as terran friend me and message me about it, ill play as toss and do it to you
US/canada server
silverjunk . 498
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On August 11 2010 07:05 underjeep wrote:
I need help, I'm a diamond terran (rank 7) and I need help from another terran player, if you know how to stop 2 gate proxy as terran friend me and message me about it, ill play as toss and do it to you
US/canada server
silverjunk . 498
just watch the whitera vs intotherainbow match on steppes of war from the king of the beta cup. he managed to survive and win the game pretty impressively.
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I watched Game nr 1.
The mainproblem was that you didn't used your forcefields well. There were 2 examples.
Nr1: He tried to ran up your ramp, let the half size of his army do it, make forcefiled and seperate them.
Nr2: You used your forcefields to cut off his escapeway... but he killed your army.
Cast them directly in his army so it will be splitted, additionally some units get stacked into it, you might have taken the battle as the winner if you forcefielded well.
Then plz add some zealots. You need them.
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On August 11 2010 05:19 Pokedude1013 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2010 03:20 gdroxor wrote:On August 10 2010 22:42 cHuT.LoL wrote:On August 10 2010 18:36 gdroxor wrote:
Unless I do a very aggressive 4gate build and immediately win the game I can't seem to beat an equally skilled Terran. I feel like I have to micro my units 100x better to beat an equal cost army.
Most of the time I can't even expand before I instantly lose to MM + tanks 1a'ing into my base. Why is there always this assumption that you're equally skilled when you "can't seem to win"? What basis do you have for relative skill besides the fact that you are losing? If we both have equal cost armies on the tech available given the time elapsed, and tank/marine/marauder beats any combination of gateway units, how would you describe the situation? I highly doubt that most Terran players are inherently better than I for the sole reason that they play Terran. Equal cost armies doesn't mean they should turn out even; his army composition > yours; tanks+bio > pure gateway if he has time to get out tanks you have time to get out a robo stargate or twilight council
except those tanks kick the crap out of temps and cols.
Really, the problem is that protoss air units suck hard compared to terran units. VR's are to slow and phoenix's are tin cans like wraiths in sc1 were (but no cloak). So to make VR's actually useful, you need large numbers of them and you need to upgrade their speed. Meanwhile, terran out of the box cheaper air units will own them. Phoenix's will simply melt to their marines. As such, a toss is forced to go ground in combat and only use air for early harrass and early map control.
In a pure ground battle, I have tried a wide variety of unit composition and still get mowed down very easily by the mmm/tank/air support ball. Maybe I need more FF's?
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@Dogsi a Replay would help alot
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On August 11 2010 11:28 Dogsi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2010 05:19 Pokedude1013 wrote:On August 11 2010 03:20 gdroxor wrote:On August 10 2010 22:42 cHuT.LoL wrote:On August 10 2010 18:36 gdroxor wrote:
Unless I do a very aggressive 4gate build and immediately win the game I can't seem to beat an equally skilled Terran. I feel like I have to micro my units 100x better to beat an equal cost army.
Most of the time I can't even expand before I instantly lose to MM + tanks 1a'ing into my base. Why is there always this assumption that you're equally skilled when you "can't seem to win"? What basis do you have for relative skill besides the fact that you are losing? If we both have equal cost armies on the tech available given the time elapsed, and tank/marine/marauder beats any combination of gateway units, how would you describe the situation? I highly doubt that most Terran players are inherently better than I for the sole reason that they play Terran. Equal cost armies doesn't mean they should turn out even; his army composition > yours; tanks+bio > pure gateway if he has time to get out tanks you have time to get out a robo stargate or twilight council except those tanks kick the crap out of temps and cols. ?
its called blink stalkers and chargelots :/
immortals
and stargate? hello?
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EPT
