EPT[H]PvT why do I keep losing to noobs? - Page 2
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Shootemup.
United States1044 Posts
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blabber
United States4449 Posts
On August 08 2010 10:30 DennyR wrote: what do you guys spend your money on if you go robo for observer and dont build immortals? 3gates are not enough to keep your money low, so you build the robobay instead of the first immortal? what about expanding? Iam usually very good at constant probeproduction wich helps me midgame after my expo is up, but I usually never expand before I scout the terran expo because I almost always lose it or the whole game to a timingpush. gateway units, expo, teching to high templars or possibly colossi if you want to go that route expanding is a weird thing in pvt. It's very hard to expand if the terran is going to do a one-base strategy because anything you have is going to melt or at the very least your expo is going to die. You pretty much have to scout his building CC and you'll know it's okay to expand. Many times I just guess he's expanding and I expand myself. If I'm right, good for me, time to play the macro game. If I'm wrong, he'll just a-move + t and win the game. | ||
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randomnine
United Kingdom56 Posts
Real missed opportunity when he assaults your ramp. Don't throw down a forcefield in front of his army... throw it down in the *middle* as he moves his army up your ramp, then take on half of it at a time. Easy way to get free kills. Good recovery after that early damage. I like your macro. Engagement in the middle of the map: why do you forcefield behind his army? He has marauders shooting stalkers, he *wants* to engage. If you had zealots, sure, that would be awesome. In this situation, use your forcefields to split the enemy in half. The marines/marauders at the back will be unable to move forwards to shoot, whereas all your army can take on the forces stuck in front. Game vs Cani: HOLY CRAP 46 WORKERS. You took a chance here investing 1200 minerals in an expansion before it started paying off (400 on base, 800 on 16 useless workers) and it actually was going OK... hell, you killed his drop pretty effectively. Would have liked to see some zealots in this mix. If you can trap marauders that's pretty much it, and they free up gas. You didn't have enough of an advantage to a-move up into his main. You could probably have done serious damage in his main if you'd controlled your army better... at this point, you should have moved to see if he had an expansion to kill, then sat your army in his natural while getting your main base back up. You could be really obnoxious by destroying his wall-in with colossus range - if he wants to move down to take on your army, you get a great arc around his ramp. You'd also get to kill units like this. But the main goal here is to contain. By sitting outside his base, he can't drop *your* base with a substantial force or you'll go for the base trade. He also can't take on your army. Eventually your second base will get up and running, you'll get sick macro, and you'll pull further ahead. There's very little he can do in that situation. Game vs Dadda: 47 workers! And you get your second base up this time, putting you so far ahead it's not even funny. How can you lose this one? Oh, ok. You keep powering like crazy. You lose two colossi for free, and then you let your opponent get an OK concave on your stalkers while they shoot the vikings (which aren't even a threat). You could have moved your stalkers + immortal down to the right to get a good arc on his army, then - again - forcefielded in the middle so you could take on just part of it at a time. Overall, my three biggest concerns here are: 1. You are powering slightly too hard in general. You're getting hit when you have two bases to defend (or two bases worth of probes) but no army advantage yet. Ease up on the probes and you'll simply have more units. 2. You're not using zealots. Stalkers are simply not cost effective against marauder-heavy bio, but zealots are so good! They do more damage to marauders than stalkers will, they're cheaper, they're *much* better in a straight up fight against marines, and they only take half as much damage from marauders. You obviously can't go mass zealots, but you need more in your mix and they have to be at the front, which leads me to: 3. Your army control is horrible. Work on flanking/getting concaves, kiting, moving your colossi properly, using forcefields effectively, scouting with cheap units, retreating fully when necessary... the goal is always to take on part of his army with all of yours, whereas you always seem to feed your enemy chunks of your forces to destroy one at a time. If you're having special trouble with MMM, it's perhaps because MMM is so mobile... but improve your army control and you'll do much better against everything. Here's a replay from a match I played earlier today: http://randomnine.wootfu.com/junk/games/sc2/PvT vs bio.SC2Replay I know this guy's pretty bad, but it's the best I've got - I've been busy with single player and I've only just played my placement matches :p Sorry. Still, perhaps it will help convince you that a little less investment in economy early on, more zealots, and seizing positional advantages in battles can help you in these games. | ||
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infinity21
Canada6683 Posts
On August 08 2010 10:11 blabber wrote: just me experimenting different all-ins on Steppes of War... kinda pointless to try to play macro game on that map when you take 2 steps and you're at my natural haha just teasing. I do think mech is really strong on that map. Pretty accessible 3rd and short rush distance where I can just siege below your nat away from zealots. If you blink in, I can just PDD and kill all your stalkers. | ||
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Snowfield
1289 Posts
Make more zealots and cut back on Stalkers. The second you realize that Stalkers just aren't awesome vs terran, is the second you'll start having an easier time. Also, get charge This is coming from a terran player. So when going more zealot heavy, you won't have so much AA, so you should favor HT's over Colossi since Vikings kill Colossi so easy. And don't underestimate the power of 1 or 2 immortals, if you do a 3gate robo push, you need them to take out bunkers and they destroy marauders | ||
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AncienTs
Japan227 Posts
On August 08 2010 09:10 Brees wrote: congralutations you have discovered how broken terran is at the moment. now go play them. I, like you, enjoyed playing protoss until I got to diamond. then I never won another game as P. this is totally not true.. a lot of players get lamed by early terran infantry because they don't make any sentries or just one or two (not enough!). | ||
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DennyR
Germany379 Posts
And my control... I know its bad  Again, I never played a rts game competitively before, and this is indeed the hardest of the mechanics to get for me. I made space for 3 armyslots in my controlgroupsetup, but I simply never make use of it because I feel extremely uncomfortable with my army splitted this way. I guess I will have to work on this  but now Iam going to watch your replay and then I will go to bed, because its 04:15am in germany :D | ||
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Blisse
Canada3710 Posts
On August 08 2010 11:15 DennyR wrote: @randomnine: wow, that was a great post! I agree 100%. The point with the workercount is true, but I usually aim for 66+ overall worker for 2 bases. 2fully saturated bases and when my main is mined out there usually is some gas left to gather. Anything higher than that is ineffective but maybe I lose some in a fight or something. In the other matchups I feel way safer to expand but vs terran I still power probes but Iam not confident enough to expand, wich is indeed a serious problem that leads to inefficiency. And my control... I know its bad Again, I never played a rts game competitively before, and this is indeed the hardest of the mechanics to get for me. I made space for 3 armyslots in my controlgroupsetup, but I simply never make use of it because I feel extremely uncomfortable with my army splitted this way. I guess I will have to work on this but now Iam going to watch your replay and then I will go to bed, because its 04:15am in germany :D You need about 30 workers max per base. You should make a bit more though if you think you will be taking another expansion really soon. 3 per resource patch. Protoss is a really micro intensive race, so I understand what you feel like. If you don't like the micro intensity, and you still really want to play Protoss, try playing games, and not attacking until you can comfortably attack move into his base. I think the problem with micro is that marauder concussive shells really shuts down most movement. But control groups are really useful, and actually fun to use. | ||
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palanq
United States761 Posts
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randomnine
United Kingdom56 Posts
http://randomnine.wootfu.com/junk/games/sc2/PvT bs bio 2.SC2Replay I'm not super comfortable putting these replays up, since I know I'm making mistakes, and my opponents aren't that good either ^_^; but I hope how I'm tackling situations in these games might give you some ideas, at least. | ||
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Jackcolt
Denmark2 Posts
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maekuuu
United States11 Posts
Once I hold off the push, I tech to colossi and then push out. The sentries are pretty capable of taking out the vikings. Also, what they do is manage the terran ball. If all of the marines and marauders are bunched up, it means: A. There isn't a very good concave, and that means not all of the units are doing damage at the same time. B. It protects your colossi. C. prevents them from stim-kiting your zealots. If your opponent is play passively, move out as soon as you get your 2 immortals. If you aren't aggressive enough, you give the T too much leeway to build up a big army. | ||
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tarsier
United Kingdom223 Posts
/endthread | ||
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Atrensis
Spain7 Posts
Gold here, however, so take what I say with a healthy dose of salt. | ||
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EnderCN
United States499 Posts
Stalkers just aren't that scary since marauders kill them so easily. You need a few but they can't be the overwhelming part of your army you want more zealots. Force fields are just nasty when used well. If the MM ball gets split early to mid game it is very easy for the Terran to lose. Later game it isn't quite as bad. Psi storm when used well is very hard to counter as Terran, Colossus are only scary if I don't have time to get out vikings. I've never lost the micro battle when I had vikings+MM and he had colossi+gateways, I can always just attack from a flank with the vikings and take down the colossi before the stalkers can take down the vikings. Void Rays never seem to bother me, early I usually have plenty of marines to deal with them. Later marine+vikings eat them up. The one thing they are useful for is to pose a threat when sitting right outside my base so I have to leave marines behind or waste resources on towers. I guess what I'm saying is if you are gonig to build the VR make sure you don't lose them. Just the threat of the VR is powerful enough to make me modify my game because i don't know if you added a 2nd or 3rd VR so I have to assume you did. | ||
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Yaotzin
South Africa4280 Posts
Void Rays never seem to bother me, Just the threat of the VR is powerful enough to make me modify my game because i don't know if you added a 2nd or 3rd VR so I have to assume you did. That's exactly what the toss wants you to do, so it seems they do bother you | ||
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EnderCN
United States499 Posts
On August 09 2010 00:05 Yaotzin wrote: That's exactly what the toss wants you to do, so it seems they do bother you Sure. But the Toss that come in and actually attack with the VR until I kill it just don't bother me at all. I'm not afraid of losing a game to early VR or anything, in fact I struggle to figure out how T outright loses to VR in general(enough people complain about them that somebody must lose tot hem!). They can delay me some early game so they can tech up and/or expand which makes them useful for the Protoss player obviously. The big point from all of that was just make sure the VR doesn't die! Even if you can't do any damage with it having it sitting out there alive is going to bug me more than killing a supply depot and losing the VR or something. | ||
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DennyR
Germany379 Posts
I watched mTwNightend vs mouzMorrow on Xel Naga Caverns a second ago and Nightend opened 2gate robo with zealot/sentry and one single stalker very passively. He rushed for charge and psistorm and made it. (I will link the replay if they upload it) I will give this a try, because I love to play chargelots+storm mid-lategame way more than colossi. Do you have any experience in 2gate robo straight into tech? I mean is staying at 2 gates and dont produce immortals a good idea on small rushdistances? | ||
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Rikard Krigaren
Sweden8 Posts
As alot of people has already said zealots are very effective against marauders, and I'd say you do have time to tech to chargelots or colossi or HTs until he gets his medivacs since he can't push up your ramp. When your armies finally engage, split his army in two with forcefields! That is really devastating to a bioball and it gives you a huge advantage. Good forcefields are a real game-winner. And as people yet again has pointed out, pick your battles, try to lure him into thin areas where you can split his armies with forcefields and don't attack where he has an advantage. Just my two cents | ||
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Bibdy
United States3481 Posts
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