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[H]PvT why do I keep losing to noobs? - Page 4

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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AuxPriest
Profile Joined May 2010
Canada38 Posts
August 09 2010 00:03 GMT
#61
Watching the first game, no Robotics Bay at all. You had excess minerals sitting around, after the expo went up, perfect time for a Robotics Bay.

Next time, I'd recommend going one base, getting sentries to prevent stim rushes with force field and quick teching to Collosi.
Rarak
Profile Joined May 2010
Australia631 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-09 03:16:09
August 09 2010 03:14 GMT
#62
420 Diamond P here and I have won about 8 of my last 10 games so on a roll atm for what its worth.

I was having big trouble with terran infantry up until a week ago but now find it possibly my best matchup.

You need to set the pace with the terran player and dictate what he builds.

Check Gnial's PvT stalker-void ray opener - it's great.

Basically you chrono 2 stalkers asap from 2 gateways and send them to his ramp to poke around. If he has marines, reapers or SCV's in range kill them. Once there are none of them in range, start picking off any supply depo's or barracks that is in range. If he has a maurauder out shoot at it until your stalker loses its shields then retreat the weakened stalker.

While this is going on you should be macroing up in your base and depending on his composition either continue with stalkers (marine heavy) or lay down a stargate and chrono out some void rays (maurauder heavy).

The key is not to lose your void rays or stalkers if you can help it and keep him contained. If he messes up its game over.

At this point my approach diverges with Gnial's.

Provided the terran has handled it well, while maintaining the contain or retreating if neccesary. If there is a threat of maurauders overunning my stalkers I will lay down a robo bay and pump a few quick immortals and expo if I feel I can hold it off. From here a transition to 2x robo bay producing collosus on 2 base and attack as soon as I have about 4 along with several immortals left over from earlier, some stalkers, sentries and quite a few zealots to put up front as meatshields.

Obviously depending on the situation things may change, but this approach is quite good.

The key with collosus is you need to attack him before he can maintain a large ground army AND get a large viking force.

I expect at some level higher than my own, this won't work so well anymore, but anywhere up to mid diamond it works great.
GoodNewsJim
Profile Joined February 2010
United States122 Posts
August 09 2010 05:18 GMT
#63
If you don't mind being weak to air, go 2x robo, 2x gate(I don't even get a robo bay). Double immortal push with zealots and stalkers tears up marauders and isn't bad vs marines either. I loved this build in beta. Since its offensive as soon as you get an immortal, you push, they'll typically defend with air if they have it, and then you switch to stalkers+ cannon up your main/expo+ switch tech to high templar and go for a long game.

An added bonus is that Immortal rock buildings too.
God is real. Jesus is LORD
Chocobo
Profile Joined November 2006
United States1108 Posts
August 09 2010 07:14 GMT
#64
There's one plain and simple answer to the OP's question... you are making almost nothing but Armored units, and then facing large groups of marauders (which do double damage to armored). This means you lose.

OP needs many more zealots in his army.
UisTehSux
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
United States693 Posts
August 09 2010 07:38 GMT
#65
I haven't seen the replays but I didn't see anybody mention anything about High templars. Zealot/stalker/sentry/collosus/templar is pretty good for the bio ball of Terran. Make sure you get the charge upgrade so the zealots rush into the ball for meat sheilds and get some good storms off.

If anything you can use storm to buy time to get a bigger army. I just know that whenever I go 3 rax marauder/marine if I saw a group of 3 or so high templar I start shaking in my boots.
I underestimated that boy. No... it was not the boy I underestimated, it was the Triforce of Courage.
sadyque
Profile Joined April 2010
Romania251 Posts
August 09 2010 08:18 GMT
#66
Easiest way to beat terran bio w/o any direct counters is high templar storm. The best and most effective unit vs terran is the HT and here is why.
1. No counter. Dont start now with the classic "Oh i cant build HT cuz i get emp stomped!". That should never happen with really basic usage of protoss scouting abilities. Always keep your maphack observer near their army. Not on the army...not patroling around their army so they can see it ..just standing near. Always attack first dont be on the defense. There is no way for the T to react fast enough if you attack first. If you see his ghosts with the observer get 1-2 temps in front of your army and shift+feedback all of them.

2. Storm cant really be dodged. It looks like they dodged but they really didnt. If they want to move fast enough out of storm they have to stim (-10 hp). If they dont stim chargelots get freeshots on them. So either way storm does the damage.

3. Instant base defense with teh khay(wutever) amulet thingy that gets HTs storm ready on warp in. You got 2 medivacs chock full of marines droped in ur base? no problem...warp in 2 HTs insta-storm him and feed back the medivacs just for loughs. Still 1-2 rines/marauders left? No worries morph them into an archon.

4. Contrary to popular belief archons are pretty decent units. After your temps run out of energy just morph them into big balls of psionic energy and splash T bio armies with ~30 dmg wohooo.

Diamond ~300 pts terran player ftw.

PS
I really have no ideea how to beat this combo...and by beat i mean build some shit and rolfstomp them - like imortals vs marauders, colosus vs rines, hts vs bio balls, charged voidroids vs anything,pheonix vs tanks and stuff like that.
Toss has so many ways to rolfstomp a terran that it isnt even funny sometimes. U say rines kill fast vrays? Ok true but what can rines do vs the chargelots that should come with the ray. So many unit combos and so many effective strategies in the toss arsenal. You just hava to look at pro replays and stuff like that.

Im not saying that the matchup is imbalanced in any way. But a terran player should always feel like he is fighting an uphill battle vs a toss.



60 bucks? But it has Kerrigans Boobs in three god damn dimensions. Do you know how long i have waited for this?
wwiv
Profile Joined April 2010
Singapore182 Posts
August 09 2010 09:24 GMT
#67
hi Denny,

I feel that the major issue is that you are losing far too much units to mis micro. While it is true that stalkers / immortals dont fare incredibly well against the MMM ball, they should not be suffering 3:1 army loss ratios as evident at the end of your last game. A few posters have already highlighted the colossus mismicro + attacking at a horrible angle + lack of army pop. IMO That army you had was more than enough to win that engagement.

But another thing is the lack of aggression in your play. When you first spotted his dropships, you should have allowed/waited for them to begin disembarking and immediately engage with forcefields, instead you cramped up your army in all the way on the edge, revealing yourself and wasting a great opportunity. You also did not do anything useful with that warp prism at the bottom, just warping in anything into an opponent's main base as he is about to engage is usually enough to throw his micro off. It... almost seems as if you are trying to turtle... or playing a singleplayer mission, trying to get as much minerals as possible...

IMH experience, if you wish to adopt such a passive stance, I would advise expanding at 50 (3 gate 1 robo) and transiting into 2 stargate void rays / DTs and do harassing while leaving yr main initial force behind. It would put you in much better stead since you clearly have issues when engaging on a larger scale.
Random()
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
Kyrgyz Republic1462 Posts
August 09 2010 09:46 GMT
#68
It's beyond me why some people insist calling people they are losing to noobs. If they win without blatant cheese, surely they do something better than you? I think you need something more that just better macro to consider yourself better than them.

To answer your question though, you build too many workers (if you're staying at one base ~30 is enough), you lose units unnecessarily and you have inefficient unit composition and positioning.
fosh.ger
Profile Joined June 2010
Germany14 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-09 10:23:56
August 09 2010 09:47 GMT
#69
I am fighting with exact the same problem. I've lost a lot to PvT in the last days. And I tried nearly everything of the above mentioned. Heres my experience from silver league.

With proper scouting it is rather easy to detect the 3 Rax Build. My opponents normally didn't care very much about Medivacs, but focused on Macro and constantly and rapidly build up a force of mixed Marine and Marauders. Some neglect Marauders completely, others have a more 50/50 approach.

While it is true, that only a handful of HT can wreck havoc on this bio ball I had never the chance to get out enough of them with proper energy to fight. I didn't have the time to get to the Tier 4 unit, not talking about having the necessary upgrades for them (Storm + Amulett).
By the time where they can amass around 30-35 Marines you nowhere near an appropriate army to counter that.
Same is with Colossus and Chargelots. The Tech costs too much time and ressources (With Chargelots even more, since you need also Twilight Council + Charge) . So you are left with say 2 Colossus, and a handful of each Zealots and Stalkers which is not enough to deal with the incoming forces.
Also VR are not helping really, since VR + gate units is too weak and VR in addition to Mech or HT costs even more ressources. Maybe the harrassing power of VR can be exploited, but if your opponent's micro is not too bad, he can deal with it very easily.

From my point of view you definitely need Sentries to block ramp or choke and buy you time for either HT or Collosus. Sentries also can help you to seperate their army to fight it with your inferior forces.

Edit: One more reason for Sentries is the Shield ability that reduces incoming damage by 2 which is a huge 33% loss for the Marines.
"I think the surest sign that there is intelligent life out there in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us." (Calvin)
Rarak
Profile Joined May 2010
Australia631 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-09 10:50:30
August 09 2010 10:41 GMT
#70
Don't underestimate voidrays. They are great for harassing terran and zerg at the start of the game. You dont even have to do much damage (although you usually do). 1-3 early voids force marines and hydra. I anticipate this by fast expoing and throwing down 2 robo and pumping collosus and crush them. For this to work you need to constantly harass with your voids(s).

To the silver player above, it will make sense when you play more and improve.


emuscles
Profile Joined March 2010
Canada12 Posts
August 09 2010 10:44 GMT
#71
you're losing to 'noobs'.. what does that make you?
i beat the game
craz3d
Profile Joined August 2005
Bulgaria856 Posts
August 09 2010 12:50 GMT
#72
On August 09 2010 03:16 0mar wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 09 2010 03:11 Yaotzin wrote:
Well you saw he was going 1/1/1 so you could expand...the importance of keeping the scout alive! Obviously if you do that against mass rax it's gg.

Very very very few terrans are going to make enough banshees to counter your usual stalker #s anyway, so rushing charge blind isn't a bad idea. All strategies have downsides/opportunity costs etc anyway.

GJ slaying those dirty Terrans ^^


Expanding against 1/1/1 is a huge trap. A good terran will immediately go into marine/tank/raven and push you at around 80 supply. With PDD, shield/stim marines and tanks, you don't have a chance.


It's kind of risky, but if your expansion kicks in you'll have enough income to run 8-9 gateways. If I see fast tech from the Terran, I always put my expansion down after 2-3 stalkers (unless the positions are really close, in which case I tech hard to chargelots). In order to counter any fast Banshee build, I'll get a forge and put a cannon at each mineral line while getting a head start on armor upgrades.

They key in this matchup is chargelots and storm. If you go for collossus, you better hide the tech so as not to let the terran counter you too quick. For me, the collossus is a good way to insure you win the first few skirmishes and to keep your expansion, but after that you should switch to templars because a group of vikings will be able to snipe the collossi very fast before your stalkers can kill them.
Hello World!
preacha
Profile Joined January 2010
Norway210 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-09 13:55:40
August 09 2010 13:52 GMT
#73
i have the same problem. but the only thing i try to do, is not take it to the late-game. i try to end it as fast as possible, before he gets the medivacs. ive tried most of the suggestions, to no avail. maybe i suck or maybe terran is imba xD but the 3xm is a killer!

im a diamond-player, btw.

edit; i usually go 2gate,robo,gate and pump out sentries and stalkers and go for the attack when i have 2 immortals. if i break through, i just keep sending stalkers and making immortals.
dont pet a burning dog
kar1181
Profile Joined May 2010
United Kingdom515 Posts
August 09 2010 14:00 GMT
#74
I agree with Ranak, I was stuck in platinum for a while because I just couldn't reliably deal with Terran.

The turnaround came from fast stalker opening. Opening up with 2-3 chrono'd stalkers and then starting a fast mid game transition (usually chargelot/templar) on one base until you get some breathing space.

Those two stalkers buy you the time you need to get your tech up and running before the inevitable doompush. I was surprised by it actually, I though two stalkers will get caned. But against most plat, low diamond terrans they wall in with depots and build few maurauders v. early on. You can snipe his marines with impunity, and then take out a supply depot.

All without losing a stalker. As soon as he gets conc shells or a couple maurauders pull-out.

But you've just bought yourself a critical amount of time.

You *need* a solid BO to pull this off though, it's all about timing.
Holywow
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada34 Posts
August 09 2010 16:17 GMT
#75
If they beat you than either they're not noobs or you are a bigger noob and shouldn't call them noobs.
phantaxx
Profile Joined May 2010
United States201 Posts
August 09 2010 16:21 GMT
#76
I've found the most effective strategy against T is to get a quick stargate to VR harass, into a 3 gate with chargelots and sentrys, while continuing to produce VRs. gate->core->star->gate->gate->tc. Normally by the time I have 3 VRs, my charge is complete and I pull my VRs from harassing to join my chargelots and sentries in a push. I just started using this strat recently and it has gotten me so many wins even against better players than myself.
Billyten
Profile Joined October 2009
Canada37 Posts
August 09 2010 16:44 GMT
#77
If you play and loose to noobs... well you are doing something wrong and by what i've seen, it is Macro and bad decision making when you push!!! Against bad players you only need to get ''more stuff'' then them!

I've encounter this problem (p vs MMM) against relatively good players (low diamond/high plat) and when I scout the MMM, and see he's going to push me, I always delay my expansion!!! this may look bad because zealots/templar(amulet+storm)/colossi is very expansive and gas starving but if I don't get to spend all the money I have at THE EXACTE MOMENT I scout this, well i'm screwd because MMM is so cheaper and can be reinforced way faster!!!

If you held the first push, make a contain while scouting and expand the fastest you can!!!

... but again, that has been working for me... but i'm not that good of a player so.... take it the way you want
Quebec!!!
Kobra Atlantis
Profile Joined July 2010
United States29 Posts
August 09 2010 19:21 GMT
#78
zealots in front are actually extremely effective with stalkers focusing medivacs indirectly does huge damage to the main army. with one or two colossus in back the ball seems to melt away
Crap a mothership...i'm going to have to pull some drones of the minerals to help stop this one.
Dogsi
Profile Joined August 2010
Indonesia298 Posts
August 10 2010 05:00 GMT
#79
Ok, First off, I am not claiming to be good because I'm not. I did not play beta and I am still learning. However, I am about 600 diamond, #3 in my league and 50 in SEA so I don't think I "suck". However, like the OP, I am having SERIOUS problems vs terran. I've lost 18 out of my last 19 matches vs terran. I know exactly what they are going to do because they ALL do the same thing. They mix marauders and marines and push early, this first push I can handle. The problem is when they get 3-6 tanks + air support and medivacs, I am dead. I have tried a large variety of unit composition and I consistently out macro my opponent (get and spend far more minerals on units and upgrades) but it always goes the same. His anti air and/or tanks take out my cols and temps faster than my stalkers can take them out. My slots fall to quickly to the range attacks and the stalkers seem a complete waste against marauders and tanks.

The reason I am frustrated with this is because I KNOW what they are doing and I can't stop it. I don't scout terrans at all anymore because in the last 20-30 games vs terran, all except 1 or 2 have done the exact same bo. I don't want to say that terran is op atm but it certainly feels that way to me.
Elanshin
Profile Joined June 2010
Australia216 Posts
August 10 2010 06:15 GMT
#80
As a diamond terran player, I have found that protoss going 2 gate robo is rather safe from almost all harass early (you have your observer to slow down banshee harass, 1 immortal to deal with any kinda early tank push) but you needa have a good follow up that isnt collosus, collosus is way too easy to take out, all you need is like 5 stimmed marauders and they can suicide into the stalkers if they want to take out the collosus, it takes alot longer to build collosus number up than it is to reinforce MM. I would suggest going more gateway heavy and zeal/temp (and immortal if the game goes a bit longer because the terran should really be getting a good number of tanks to support his bio ball). and o you need a fair few observers, DO NOT SKIMP ON OBSERVER NUMBERS! need about 2 going around near your army and a couple just to check on him why you might ask... cloaked ghost ruin your day.
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