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Can we stop talking about nerfing things please? - 9:10 KST |
On September 05 2011 06:18 Abusion wrote:
does anyone else reverting the warp-gate timing after the next patch will make everything better? isn't the reason that this build is so strong is that it can't really be punished early game even if scouted. If toss still had 4 gate wouldn't that solve the problem? and with the recent patch coming in ''solving pvp'' would it make it any better?
There is no warp gate time change for patch 1.4. They are adding 30 seconds to blink research time, but warp gate still takes 160 seconds.
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On September 05 2011 04:33 Toadvine wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2011 04:23 ZeromuS wrote:On September 05 2011 01:10 hzflank wrote:On September 05 2011 00:03 Teoita wrote:On September 04 2011 22:52 sandyph wrote:
Genius have been having success by going 1 gate stargate all in in the GSL, I dont know seems like a legit build if you know the opponent is doing 1-1-1 I can't for the life of me understand why void ray all-ins would work specifically in that situation. As good as they are vs terran in general, why are they better against the one build with the most anti-air capability of all the terran openings (no expo, 1-2 rax pumping marines with reactors, bunker always at the ramp, and a fast starport). What am i missing here? Stimpack will be very late and there are no concussive shells or combat shields. The marines cant kill your voidrays as easily and you have a better chance of getting away if it goes wrong. I dont particularly like using voidray all in, but I do feel a little safer using it if I know they dont have the gas for stim. Also, there will be a wall in and you can charge the void ray on the wall in supply depot which will supply block terran and with a full charge void and a few stalkers bunkers fall really quick. Then the next supply depot dies quickly as well and the tanks they are making are useless. The marine count isnt too too high when the all in timing hits so that between the 6 range stalkers and full charge void (sometimes 2) the marines melt as do the single vikings that pop out of the starport at a time. I find that if he sacs the depots, repairs his bunker and tank, and just stalls till the Viking comes out, he wins pretty handily. Tanks are actually really good against Stalkers, and their range makes them difficult to zone. Most Terrans lose to this by being impatient and trying to save whatever's at their front, when they can simply wait and let their build develop. Charging up a ramp with 3 Gate VR against Marines, Tanks, Vikings and SCVs usually ends really badly, and if you try to wait and contain the Terran, you lose to the push after he gets Siege Mode.
this is true I think, most of the Terran doing 1-1-1 when I get Protoss(Random) will try to snipe the voidrays with their marines as quick as possible even when there are stalkers and zealot just below the voids on hold command :-/
but if they wait too long, they can easily lost their rax and then the only anti air they have are vikings which do nothing against stalkers and zealots
although if you do voids all in and they go mass marines-medivac with stim then you'll die pretty quick
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On September 05 2011 06:40 Mikelius wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2011 06:18 Abusion wrote:
does anyone else reverting the warp-gate timing after the next patch will make everything better? isn't the reason that this build is so strong is that it can't really be punished early game even if scouted. If toss still had 4 gate wouldn't that solve the problem? and with the recent patch coming in ''solving pvp'' would it make it any better? There is no warp gate time change for patch 1.4. They are adding 30 seconds to blink research time, but warp gate still takes 160 seconds.
He's talking about reverting the 1.3 change that increased the time for warpgates, since now ramp vision is adjusted to weaken 4gate in PvP.
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I can see now why this build is overpowered saw Huk stream faced it like 5 times lose every time to the same build.
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On September 05 2011 09:29 sandyph wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2011 04:33 Toadvine wrote:On September 05 2011 04:23 ZeromuS wrote:On September 05 2011 01:10 hzflank wrote:On September 05 2011 00:03 Teoita wrote:On September 04 2011 22:52 sandyph wrote:
Genius have been having success by going 1 gate stargate all in in the GSL, I dont know seems like a legit build if you know the opponent is doing 1-1-1 I can't for the life of me understand why void ray all-ins would work specifically in that situation. As good as they are vs terran in general, why are they better against the one build with the most anti-air capability of all the terran openings (no expo, 1-2 rax pumping marines with reactors, bunker always at the ramp, and a fast starport). What am i missing here? Stimpack will be very late and there are no concussive shells or combat shields. The marines cant kill your voidrays as easily and you have a better chance of getting away if it goes wrong. I dont particularly like using voidray all in, but I do feel a little safer using it if I know they dont have the gas for stim. Also, there will be a wall in and you can charge the void ray on the wall in supply depot which will supply block terran and with a full charge void and a few stalkers bunkers fall really quick. Then the next supply depot dies quickly as well and the tanks they are making are useless. The marine count isnt too too high when the all in timing hits so that between the 6 range stalkers and full charge void (sometimes 2) the marines melt as do the single vikings that pop out of the starport at a time. I find that if he sacs the depots, repairs his bunker and tank, and just stalls till the Viking comes out, he wins pretty handily. Tanks are actually really good against Stalkers, and their range makes them difficult to zone. Most Terrans lose to this by being impatient and trying to save whatever's at their front, when they can simply wait and let their build develop. Charging up a ramp with 3 Gate VR against Marines, Tanks, Vikings and SCVs usually ends really badly, and if you try to wait and contain the Terran, you lose to the push after he gets Siege Mode. this is true I think, most of the Terran doing 1-1-1 when I get Protoss(Random) will try to snipe the voidrays with their marines as quick as possible even when there are stalkers and zealot just below the voids on hold command :-/ but if they wait too long, they can easily lost their rax and then the only anti air they have are vikings which do nothing against stalkers and zealots although if you do voids all in and they go mass marines-medivac with stim then you'll die pretty quick
I feel extremely fast stim isn't as strong against 3gate void allin as a 1/1/1. In the case of stim, the onus is on protoss to micro, the terran really isn't in control of the situation. On the other hand, when going 1/1/1, if they live til viking/tank is out, then they are in control because they have micro-able units that outrange protoss, especially the viking.
It comes down to perspective, but I feel far more confident in my void all-in knowing that my control decides who wins rather than the terrans. One way I don't make mistakes, the other way he doesn't make mistakes. I think I'd trust myself more than him, especially at higher levels.
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lol anyone just watched HuK's stream? Doesn't matter how many immortals, bases and units you have, you still lose anyway. I'm so confusing right now tbh, don't even know where and what to discuss about this.
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On September 06 2011 15:25 tuho12345 wrote:
lol anyone just watched HuK's stream? Doesn't matter how many immortals, bases and units you have, you still lose anyway. I'm so confusing right now tbh, don't even know where and what to discuss about this.
he also lost to zerg infestors so...
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Just make it so OC don't start with 50 energy when finished? would stop the early economic boost which seems to give terran so much mineral and would slow/weaken down the push, alternatively toss could try getting 5 sentries, rest stalkers and just perma ff the ramp of the terran (unless ramp is too big) to hold it off for as long as possible.
I'm making this suggestion after reading about 75 pages of this thread so yeah.. im open to suggestions
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On September 07 2011 16:21 Disagea wrote:
Just make it so OC don't start with 50 energy when finished? would stop the early economic boost which seems to give terran so much mineral and would slow/weaken down the push, alternatively toss could try getting 5 sentries, rest stalkers and just perma ff the ramp of the terran (unless ramp is too big) to hold it off for as long as possible.
I'm making this suggestion after reading about 75 pages of this thread so yeah.. im open to suggestions
The problem is that even after the FF cast range is taken into account, seiged tanks can hit any sentries attempting to contain. So as soon as tanks are out, which is normally when the push commences, any form of sentry contain no longer works... without even delaying the push.
In regards to your proposed OC nerf, I feel that it would still be largely ineffective. The main limiting factor for this build is gas availability, and when they push out they already have enough spare minerals to pull most of their scvs. Additionally, it would limit other matchups significantly, since they rely upon the mineral boost from mules to get faster tech. If this is nerfed, it will inadvertently favour gasless builds.
Personally, I feel that a more appropriate change to deal with the 1-1-1 would be to make psi storm automatically researched for HTs. Not only would this bring them into line with the other races' casters who come with their AOE already researched, but it will help deal with the main damage dealers of the push, the marines. It will also mean that the toss will be able to diversify its tech routes a bit earlier, since there is 200/200 saved which would otherwise be spent on storm. This is also integral to holding the 1-1-1, since the builds which seem to come closest to beating it require two tech routes to be unlocked for the toss.
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In regards to your proposed OC nerf [no starting energy], I feel that it would still be largely ineffective. The main limiting factor for this build is gas availability, and when they push out they already have enough spare minerals to pull most of their scvs. Additionally, it would limit other matchups significantly, since they rely upon the mineral boost from mules to get faster tech. If this is nerfed, it will inadvertently favour gasless builds.
Well, it's actually the combination of units that makes the push so scary. In other words, a reduction of any of the units in the push will weaken it considerably. With fewer marines even void-rays might be a viable choice for defending this push.
In addition, the nerf would make the inbase command center much less effective and might push Terran down to a 50% winrate vs zerg/protoss.
(Btw, giving away psi-storm for free sounds really overpowered to me. I think a better adjustment would be to remove infestor/ghost energy as they did with the HT.)
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When i do the 1base all in i skip the banshees, push with 3 tanks and about 25-30 marines with stim and combat shield, comes at arround 9min.
Idk why, i just really prefer skipping the banshees
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Why are nerfs still being discussed? I thought we were supposed to be having constructive discussion here : /
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On September 07 2011 17:34 Ninety-Three wrote:
Why are nerfs still being discussed? I thought we were supposed to be having constructive discussion here : /
The three basic ways to affect the game balance are: Maps, Nerfs, and Buffs. Why would one means of adjustment make a conversation less constructive?
This taboo over balance doesn't help the constructive discussion factor. If you read the thread there are plenty of constructive viewpoints.
On September 04 2011 22:45 aebriol wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2011 20:45 TumbaStarcraft wrote:
One thing about it, nobody can deny that Terran results are really great right now. While I agree that Terran is really strong atm - and have been since release to be honest - I think it is a natural consequence of the race having the most options, and being the least scoutable. Even if you scout something, some buildings lift off, and ... well, now you are going up against something completely different. I mean ... if you scout a factory making a tech lab does that mean: - blue flame hellions? - tanks? - banshees because the starport is hidden? - mass marine medivac play where the factory is making addons for the barracks? ... and so on. I think that terrans have the easiest way to hide what they are doing, and change it into something unexpected. Which is coincidentally why TvT is the longest, most versatile matchup, with the most different workable builds and cheese ... because there are so many variations that can go up against each other. So imho, 1-1-1 isn't the big problem. The big problem is the versatility of 1 base terrans ability to all in through a multiple of builds, while you can never be sure that they didn't just expand behind it. I think that making command centers unable to lift off would solve so many things ... because then you would know for a fact whether or not the terran is expanding ... much like you do with P and Z. And that's the only thing that is making the all ins so powerful to be honest ... you can't know whether or not terran is expanding or not.
That would be amazing. But I think that there are some features that were around in Brood War that if they took out people would go crazy.
If nerfs aren't the answer what buffs can be given? I don't see how patch 1.4 is going to help with the scouting issue. Maybe quick warp prism will negate the need for early scouting? You get to scout with a harass? I don't know could work. I would be leary of early MM pressure though.
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has anyone found something that even remotely counters this? i have only won because i sniped a raven/cc with blink and use dts and the fact that he mismicroed a few times.
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Watch sase take it on, he seems to be able to deal with it consistently
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On September 04 2011 20:45 TumbaStarcraft wrote:
The issue has been around for a while, so I don't understand why this is so complicated?
1.) Someone finds a counter to the 111, that's fine. To someone that is on a basic level great. But how about the builds that the "counter" now leave you susceptible to? You can't scout after wall off, and obs gets there too late.
2.) The effect on the ladder. PvT on Xel'Naga has become a joke. The game is supposed to be fun, the 111 is a thorn in the side of ladder play and good sportsmanship. The Terran is berated verbally for using a strat. that works, and the Toss needs PERFECT control which most lower league players don't have. Either way it doesn't foster good games or good relations.
I understand the game should be balanced for the top 1% (the Pros) and I agree with this, but if Kiwikaki, MC, Puzzle, and the likes can't win against a build order, what makes Blizzard think a NA mid league player can?
Perception is king. Sometimes whether something is true or isn't doesn't matter based on perception. When the perception is the 111 isn't balanced and the fact may be the 111 isn't balanced then I expect Blizzard intends to remedy that.
At the end of the day better communication from Blizzard would help with the balance debates immensely. If they would just put all the cards on the table so to speak and communicate better then I can assure you less rage would ensue. They are damned if they do and damned if they don't anyhow I guess.
One thing about it, nobody can deny that Terran results are really great right now. NASL season 1, IEM, MLGS, most recent code A and of the 4 final players in Code S three are Terran. While I don't put a ton of stock into tournament results for balance it's getting a bit hard to ignore. The question is how much of those victories were derived from 111 along the way? I don't want to take away from any of the brilliant play of the Terrans either! There is a point however where you must start to question.
I have heard many Terrans agree this build may be too strong. And it has been that way for a while. So if the perception from pros to Joe's is IMBA then I'm certain blizzard has a fix incoming.
Yeh its too strong. But terran foreigners dont do well actually. Terran only seem to do very well in korea.
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On September 08 2011 07:20 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2011 20:45 TumbaStarcraft wrote:
The issue has been around for a while, so I don't understand why this is so complicated?
1.) Someone finds a counter to the 111, that's fine. To someone that is on a basic level great. But how about the builds that the "counter" now leave you susceptible to? You can't scout after wall off, and obs gets there too late.
2.) The effect on the ladder. PvT on Xel'Naga has become a joke. The game is supposed to be fun, the 111 is a thorn in the side of ladder play and good sportsmanship. The Terran is berated verbally for using a strat. that works, and the Toss needs PERFECT control which most lower league players don't have. Either way it doesn't foster good games or good relations.
I understand the game should be balanced for the top 1% (the Pros) and I agree with this, but if Kiwikaki, MC, Puzzle, and the likes can't win against a build order, what makes Blizzard think a NA mid league player can?
Perception is king. Sometimes whether something is true or isn't doesn't matter based on perception. When the perception is the 111 isn't balanced and the fact may be the 111 isn't balanced then I expect Blizzard intends to remedy that.
At the end of the day better communication from Blizzard would help with the balance debates immensely. If they would just put all the cards on the table so to speak and communicate better then I can assure you less rage would ensue. They are damned if they do and damned if they don't anyhow I guess.
One thing about it, nobody can deny that Terran results are really great right now. NASL season 1, IEM, MLGS, most recent code A and of the 4 final players in Code S three are Terran. While I don't put a ton of stock into tournament results for balance it's getting a bit hard to ignore. The question is how much of those victories were derived from 111 along the way? I don't want to take away from any of the brilliant play of the Terrans either! There is a point however where you must start to question.
I have heard many Terrans agree this build may be too strong. And it has been that way for a while. So if the perception from pros to Joe's is IMBA then I'm certain blizzard has a fix incoming. Yeh its too strong. But terran foreigners dont do well actually. Terran only seem to do very well in korea.
What about Sjow at MLG Raleigh he finished 8th and nearly defeated Bomber. Also Thorzain, and the first foreigner recruited to a Korean team Fenix. I would say those are some pretty good Terran foreigners.
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On September 08 2011 07:20 Hider wrote:
Yeh its too strong. But terran foreigners dont do well actually. Terran only seem to do very well in korea.
Koreans have the mechanics to macro and micro at the same time. Like check most of foreign terran doing harass, they will fail to macro at the same time when controlling blue flame hellions etc.
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Anyone watching Khaldor right now?
Hwansing vs Marineking, MK is playing some kind of FE into a really 111 like push. Its a bit later but fueled by dual mule. P managed to hold the first push and they were about equal, but Ts 2nd push was just too much :/ Is it possible that more and more versions of this are appearing >.<?
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That map is just absolutely retarded for marine/tank contains. MVP v MC was similar, at least it looked almost close for a period of time, whereas MC never had a chance to do anything because of bunkers.
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EPT
