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Can we stop talking about nerfing things please? - 9:10 KST |
On September 04 2011 05:26 niteReloaded wrote:
Didn't KA enable 62 energy in BroodWar? What's wrong with that?
Blizzard sometimes butchers stuff instead of trimming it.
The KA upgrade makes perfect sense, but it was too strong.
No.
In SC/BW the Amulet incresed the MAX energy with 50. It did not give you any more starting energy.
All the energy uppgrades gave +50max energy, now they all give +25starting energy.
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On September 04 2011 06:29 SeaSwift wrote:
If the reason KA was removed was to remove warp-in insta-storms, WHY OH WHY not just make the KA give +12 or +15, rather than +25? The only difference it makes is how long you have to wait with the HT before you use it, and there's no reason to make the HTs wait so long, especially given how slow they are.
Yes it is, now build time for casting storm = build time for casting fungal ...
It's brought in line with other spellcasters. There's a delay from building start until you can cast AE.
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On September 04 2011 06:18 cekkmt wrote:
How about increasing the amount of energy a templar has? which is what the BW upgrade did, instead of giving it more energy to start
Honestly with storms as easy to cast and plentiful as they are, can you imagine how bad it would be if templars could cast even more storms? everything would die.
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On September 04 2011 08:33 SuperGnu wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2011 05:26 niteReloaded wrote:
Didn't KA enable 62 energy in BroodWar? What's wrong with that?
Blizzard sometimes butchers stuff instead of trimming it.
The KA upgrade makes perfect sense, but it was too strong. No. In SC/BW the Amulet incresed the MAX energy with 50. It did not give you any more starting energy. All the energy uppgrades gave +50max energy, now they all give +25starting energy.
It gave more starting energy, too. From Liquipedia: "Energy Upgrades: Increase the maximum energy for the caster from 200 to 250. Also increases the Energy when spawning from 50 to 62.5 (except for Dark Archons, as they technically don't spawn), but only if the upgrade was finished before unit making was begun."
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Belgium9947 Posts
On September 04 2011 08:33 SuperGnu wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2011 05:26 niteReloaded wrote:
Didn't KA enable 62 energy in BroodWar? What's wrong with that?
Blizzard sometimes butchers stuff instead of trimming it.
The KA upgrade makes perfect sense, but it was too strong. No. In SC/BW the Amulet incresed the MAX energy with 50. It did not give you any more starting energy. All the energy uppgrades gave +50max energy, now they all give +25starting energy.
Yeah but the starting energy was a percentage of max, so it made the starting energy slightly higher. That's what he was trying to say with the 62 energy enabling (=25% of 250 instead of 50, being 25% of 200)
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On September 04 2011 08:35 aebriol wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2011 06:29 SeaSwift wrote:
If the reason KA was removed was to remove warp-in insta-storms, WHY OH WHY not just make the KA give +12 or +15, rather than +25? The only difference it makes is how long you have to wait with the HT before you use it, and there's no reason to make the HTs wait so long, especially given how slow they are. Yes it is, now build time for casting storm = build time for casting fungal ... It's brought in line with other spellcasters. There's a delay from building start until you can cast AE.
I take it that you're in favor of making Templar Archive cheaper, making HTs have Storm without research, and buffing their speed up to 2.25?
Because then they'd actually be "in line with other spellcasters".
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On September 04 2011 09:05 Toadvine wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2011 08:35 aebriol wrote:On September 04 2011 06:29 SeaSwift wrote:
If the reason KA was removed was to remove warp-in insta-storms, WHY OH WHY not just make the KA give +12 or +15, rather than +25? The only difference it makes is how long you have to wait with the HT before you use it, and there's no reason to make the HTs wait so long, especially given how slow they are. Yes it is, now build time for casting storm = build time for casting fungal ... It's brought in line with other spellcasters. There's a delay from building start until you can cast AE. I take it that you're in favor of making Templar Archive cheaper, making HTs have Storm without research, and buffing their speed up to 2.25? Because then they'd actually be "in line with other spellcasters".
This is something that I totally agree with, but the other way around. Nerf the Ghost and the infestor so that their spells require research. That makes it so that its an actual investment to go down that tech path and punishes rushing for that unit.
And templar do need a speed boost.
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On September 04 2011 09:17 GinDo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2011 09:05 Toadvine wrote:On September 04 2011 08:35 aebriol wrote:On September 04 2011 06:29 SeaSwift wrote:
If the reason KA was removed was to remove warp-in insta-storms, WHY OH WHY not just make the KA give +12 or +15, rather than +25? The only difference it makes is how long you have to wait with the HT before you use it, and there's no reason to make the HTs wait so long, especially given how slow they are. Yes it is, now build time for casting storm = build time for casting fungal ... It's brought in line with other spellcasters. There's a delay from building start until you can cast AE. I take it that you're in favor of making Templar Archive cheaper, making HTs have Storm without research, and buffing their speed up to 2.25? Because then they'd actually be "in line with other spellcasters". This is something that I totally agree with, but the other way around. Nerf the Ghost and the infestor so that their spells require research. That makes it so that its an actual investment to go down that tech path and punishes rushing for that unit. And templar do need a speed boost.
Yeah, that's obviously fine too.
Or, we can just agree that different races are different, and that spellcasters don't need to be equal in everything as long as the game is balanced otherwise. Although I do think that Ghosts and Infestors are too good when massed anyway. They're supposed to be support units, not "I rush for Infestors, make 15 of them, and have an awesome timing attack anyway.".
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On September 04 2011 09:05 Toadvine wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2011 08:35 aebriol wrote:On September 04 2011 06:29 SeaSwift wrote:
If the reason KA was removed was to remove warp-in insta-storms, WHY OH WHY not just make the KA give +12 or +15, rather than +25? The only difference it makes is how long you have to wait with the HT before you use it, and there's no reason to make the HTs wait so long, especially given how slow they are. Yes it is, now build time for casting storm = build time for casting fungal ... It's brought in line with other spellcasters. There's a delay from building start until you can cast AE. I take it that you're in favor of making Templar Archive cheaper, making HTs have Storm without research, and buffing their speed up to 2.25? Because then they'd actually be "in line with other spellcasters".
what are their current speed? they are annoyingly slow, but i think making them the same speed as stock zealots is too fast :S
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I think storm range or the radius needs to be better - even the top level pros can't position templars perfectly because they simply are too slow and get stuck behind other units - if you put them in the front they die from fungal or easily get emp'd -
It's tough for protoss in general these days.
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On September 04 2011 09:59 Loodah wrote:
I think storm range or the radius needs to be better - even the top level pros can't position templars perfectly because they simply are too slow and get stuck behind other units - if you put them in the front they die from fungal or easily get emp'd -
It's tough for protoss in general these days.
Oh and if you put them infront theyre closer to the enemies infestors so you can feedback them easier also.
Real problem is that to fungal, emp protoss do have a choice, feedback. Zerg doesnt. We have no energy draining ability and have to survive on brute force against storm.
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On September 04 2011 09:55 FrankWalls wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2011 09:05 Toadvine wrote:On September 04 2011 08:35 aebriol wrote:On September 04 2011 06:29 SeaSwift wrote:
If the reason KA was removed was to remove warp-in insta-storms, WHY OH WHY not just make the KA give +12 or +15, rather than +25? The only difference it makes is how long you have to wait with the HT before you use it, and there's no reason to make the HTs wait so long, especially given how slow they are. Yes it is, now build time for casting storm = build time for casting fungal ... It's brought in line with other spellcasters. There's a delay from building start until you can cast AE. I take it that you're in favor of making Templar Archive cheaper, making HTs have Storm without research, and buffing their speed up to 2.25? Because then they'd actually be "in line with other spellcasters". what are their current speed? they are annoyingly slow, but i think making them the same speed as stock zealots is too fast :S
1.875, which is the same as Thors and Battlecruisers. And yes, 2.25 is the speed of stock Zealots, as well as Ghosts and Infestors off-creep.
This is all off-topic anyway, since Templar definitely shouldn't be the solution to 1/1/1. I just responded to that guy because shitty reasoning annoys me.
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On September 04 2011 09:05 Toadvine wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2011 08:35 aebriol wrote:On September 04 2011 06:29 SeaSwift wrote:
If the reason KA was removed was to remove warp-in insta-storms, WHY OH WHY not just make the KA give +12 or +15, rather than +25? The only difference it makes is how long you have to wait with the HT before you use it, and there's no reason to make the HTs wait so long, especially given how slow they are. Yes it is, now build time for casting storm = build time for casting fungal ... It's brought in line with other spellcasters. There's a delay from building start until you can cast AE. I take it that you're in favor of making Templar Archive cheaper, making HTs have Storm without research, and buffing their speed up to 2.25? Because then they'd actually be "in line with other spellcasters".
Sure.
And remove feedback.
That would be quite okay with me 
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On September 04 2011 09:51 Toadvine wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2011 09:17 GinDo wrote:On September 04 2011 09:05 Toadvine wrote:On September 04 2011 08:35 aebriol wrote:On September 04 2011 06:29 SeaSwift wrote:
If the reason KA was removed was to remove warp-in insta-storms, WHY OH WHY not just make the KA give +12 or +15, rather than +25? The only difference it makes is how long you have to wait with the HT before you use it, and there's no reason to make the HTs wait so long, especially given how slow they are. Yes it is, now build time for casting storm = build time for casting fungal ... It's brought in line with other spellcasters. There's a delay from building start until you can cast AE. I take it that you're in favor of making Templar Archive cheaper, making HTs have Storm without research, and buffing their speed up to 2.25? Because then they'd actually be "in line with other spellcasters". This is something that I totally agree with, but the other way around. Nerf the Ghost and the infestor so that their spells require research. That makes it so that its an actual investment to go down that tech path and punishes rushing for that unit. And templar do need a speed boost. Yeah, that's obviously fine too. Or, we can just agree that different races are different, and that spellcasters don't need to be equal in everything as long as the game is balanced otherwise. Although I do think that Ghosts and Infestors are too good when massed anyway. They're supposed to be support units, not "I rush for Infestors, make 15 of them, and have an awesome timing attack anyway.".
Infestors need to research + starting energy, can remove that and just spawn with the mana required to cast fungal, and have to research fungal ... exactly the same shit.
Need to research one item, to build them in the same amount of time, to cast an AE.
Right now they are in fact basically the same ...
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On September 04 2011 10:31 aebriol wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2011 09:05 Toadvine wrote:On September 04 2011 08:35 aebriol wrote:On September 04 2011 06:29 SeaSwift wrote:
If the reason KA was removed was to remove warp-in insta-storms, WHY OH WHY not just make the KA give +12 or +15, rather than +25? The only difference it makes is how long you have to wait with the HT before you use it, and there's no reason to make the HTs wait so long, especially given how slow they are. Yes it is, now build time for casting storm = build time for casting fungal ... It's brought in line with other spellcasters. There's a delay from building start until you can cast AE. I take it that you're in favor of making Templar Archive cheaper, making HTs have Storm without research, and buffing their speed up to 2.25? Because then they'd actually be "in line with other spellcasters". Sure. And remove feedback. That would be quite okay with me
Yeah, when Ghosts and Infestors come with a utility spell (IT/Snipe), and HTs do not, that will definitely make for fairness among spellcasters...
On September 04 2011 10:33 aebriol wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2011 09:51 Toadvine wrote:On September 04 2011 09:17 GinDo wrote:On September 04 2011 09:05 Toadvine wrote:On September 04 2011 08:35 aebriol wrote:On September 04 2011 06:29 SeaSwift wrote:
If the reason KA was removed was to remove warp-in insta-storms, WHY OH WHY not just make the KA give +12 or +15, rather than +25? The only difference it makes is how long you have to wait with the HT before you use it, and there's no reason to make the HTs wait so long, especially given how slow they are. Yes it is, now build time for casting storm = build time for casting fungal ... It's brought in line with other spellcasters. There's a delay from building start until you can cast AE. I take it that you're in favor of making Templar Archive cheaper, making HTs have Storm without research, and buffing their speed up to 2.25? Because then they'd actually be "in line with other spellcasters". This is something that I totally agree with, but the other way around. Nerf the Ghost and the infestor so that their spells require research. That makes it so that its an actual investment to go down that tech path and punishes rushing for that unit. And templar do need a speed boost. Yeah, that's obviously fine too. Or, we can just agree that different races are different, and that spellcasters don't need to be equal in everything as long as the game is balanced otherwise. Although I do think that Ghosts and Infestors are too good when massed anyway. They're supposed to be support units, not "I rush for Infestors, make 15 of them, and have an awesome timing attack anyway.". Infestors need to research + starting energy, can remove that and just spawn with the mana required to cast fungal, and have to research fungal ... exactly the same shit. Need to research one item, to build them in the same amount of time, to cast an AE. Right now they are in fact basically the same ...
Ok, this is absolutely retarded. You may as well complain that the game is unfair because you have to wait 28 seconds for a Roach to spawn after paying for it, while a Protoss gets a Stalker instantly. Except Warpgates have these things called cooldowns, so they only get an advantage with the first warp-in, and function just like Barracks afterwards, as far as production speed goes.
Similarly, the only advantage they give you is that you can warp in HTs the moment your Templar Archives finishes, but every single HT warp-in afterwards is functionally the same as an Infestor popping. Realistically, a Zerg is going to have Infestors out before a Protoss gets HTs, so it's not like this matters in practice.
Seriously, you're just arguing that Warpgates are unfair at this point, which they aren't. Stupid and game-breaking, perhaps, but not unfair.
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The issue with the 1-1-1 is that mech and Bio styles have completely different counters. The way the game is right now Protoss is a very hard counter race early to mid game. They need to get the exact GW composition depending on what Terran does and the same goes for against Zerg. Protoss can deal with 1-1-1, but then they insta lose to MM. And the way Terran is with Tech labs and Reactors, they are to flexible.
The issue is that if you buff Protoss to beat Terran then P becomes to good against Z. And the alternative of Nerfing Terran won't work unless you nerf Mech into oblivion, at which point many people will stop playing SC2 and will turn TvT back into a MMMFest with raven support with each person trying to EMP each others Medivacs and Ravens. And TvZ will become very Zerg favored with CrapTanks and people will learn to simply go MMM against Zerg with Ghosts to counter infestors. See where I'm going with this?
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I feel having a quicker charge would fixe a lot of problems in PvT, like make it cheaper or sooner.
The issue is that if you buff Protoss to beat Terran then P becomes to good against Z. And the alternative of Nerfing Terran won't work unless you nerf Mech into oblivion, at which point many people will stop playing SC2 and will turn TvT back into a MMMFest with raven support with each person trying to EMP each others Medivacs and Ravens. And TvZ will become very Zerg favored with CrapTanks and people will learn to simply go MMM against Zerg with Ghosts to counter infestors. See where I'm going with this?
Of course but there are some buff to protoss that wont change much to PvZ some buff to rarely used units or timings nerfs to terran that wouldn't change much of TvZ. Like a quicker charge really wouldn't change much of PvZ.
Of course you have to take both match up into account, but there are some solutions.
The thing is, Protoss "CAN" fight 1-1-1 units, the protoss response units are there (collosus, charge zealots, HT)... they are just too far in the tech tree or there are some huge investments to be made (like observers). Therefore it is why I don't think a buff to units would be good but a buff to the trees would be (cost, research time or one swap of techs).
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On September 04 2011 05:43 Spicy Pepper wrote:
It might've been better for Blizzard to remove it, rather tweak it. It may make it easier to clarify the parameters of what is imbalanced.
So assume that KA at 75 energy might be too much, no KA might be too little, now you know the solution is somewhere in between, and can work on tweaking once you've established the boundaries.
Also, if after removing KA, P was still too strong late game vs T, then you would know that you could discard tweaking KA as a solution to balance. Of course, I'm assuming a complete disregard for design.
If I recall from the chat between David Kim and Korean pros, Blizzard will first let the new warp prism play first. And if that doesn't work out for Ghost-Templar balance, he mentioned increasing templar's move speed.
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On September 04 2011 12:32 rezoacken wrote:I feel having a quicker charge would fixe a lot of problems in PvT, like make it cheaper or sooner. Show nested quote +The issue is that if you buff Protoss to beat Terran then P becomes to good against Z. And the alternative of Nerfing Terran won't work unless you nerf Mech into oblivion, at which point many people will stop playing SC2 and will turn TvT back into a MMMFest with raven support with each person trying to EMP each others Medivacs and Ravens. And TvZ will become very Zerg favored with CrapTanks and people will learn to simply go MMM against Zerg with Ghosts to counter infestors. See where I'm going with this? Of course but there are some buff to protoss that wont change much to PvZ some buff to rarely used units or timings nerfs to terran that wouldn't change much of TvZ. Like a quicker charge really wouldn't change much of PvZ. Of course you have to take both match up into account, but there are some solutions. The thing is, Protoss "CAN" fight 1-1-1 units, the protoss response units are there (collosus, charge zealots, HT)... they are just too far in the tech tree or there are some huge investments to be made (like observers). Therefore it is why I don't think a buff to units would be good but a buff to the trees would be (cost, research time or one swap of techs).
I have to agree, toss has the units to deal with the push just not the means to get to them. Also with the lack of scouting information it's hard to ascertain if the Terran is actually going 111. I just don't know how could you change the tech tree so it wouldn't be game breaking?
If I recall from the chat between David Kim and Korean pros, Blizzard will first let the new warp prism play first. And if that doesn't work out for Ghost-Templar balance, he mentioned increasing templar's move speed.
I can see how the answer to 1 1 1 is warp prism. Exploiting the timing by circumventing the hot spots and dropping the Terran main catching the army out of position. Kifire tried this in tt eSports challenge season 2 with colosus drops in the main.
How does templar / ghost even come into play in a 111 discussion?
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The solution to being able to tech faster is pretty simple actually. Decrease cybernetics core build time but in response, increase warp gate research time. The two build times can be balanced so that warp gate isn't any faster, but the cyber core will come out faster (this will allow for faster tech).
This will allow toss to scout faster with an observer or tech to any other route faster. The downside is that it makes things like 3 gate voidray come out even faster (but stargate time could be nerfed in response).
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EPT
